Category: Core Training

Developing Your Diagnostic

Transcript

Today, as you saw in the worksheets, thanks for coming on camera. We’re gonna be talking about a diagnostic tool, and we’ll get into the details of that. As always, we’re gonna kick it off with some training And then, in today’s training though, we’ll be spending some time doing, like, work, based on the training. So expect to, you know, put aside twenty minutes at the end of this to start doing some thinking through what we’re talking about. And then we’ll do the usual AMA.

Always kick it off with a win, please, a win of any kind helps everybody stay motivated and see how many cool things there are to do out there. And then any any question you got, the more specific, the more context you can give the better.

Everybody good.

Good. Alright. We’re recording this. When you ask a question, please do come on camera wherever possible.

Please do be on camera so people can connect with you and see a smiling or whatever face you don’t have to smile no more. Whatever feels right is good. Okay. I am going to share my screen.

Alright. So this is this is cool. This is something that we’ve been working on for a little while.

For freelancing school as well as for people who are going to be joining, copy school pro. And that is a better way to diagnose what you need to work on because a lot of people are looking for road maps. Right? And that’s not just for students.

Your clients also want some form of roadmap. Like, what are you what what are we here for? Where are you gonna take me How do I know it’s the right thing to do? So this tool is a way and you’re gonna come up with your own today.

It’ll be the starting point for your own. This is a tool that helps you across every part of converting and delivering to people and also setting projects. So, You may have questions about this. I don’t think you’re gonna walk out of today’s session going.

I totally get it. I got the right one. It’s perfect. Everything’s amazing. This is gonna be the beginning of starting to think through something that you might work out over the course of the next month.

But here is the idea. So I’m on this.

Why does it say that’s page two? Everything says page two. It’s not. It’s actually four. Sorry.

Anyway, it doesn’t matter. But it’s the general diagnostic template. This page in your worksheet your workbook.

This is the idea here. Hopefully, you’re not on a very small screen.

The, again, the idea here is to figure out what the general three or four parts of what you deliver that is a solution to your client or student as you start to scale to teaching more to their problem what that what that is so you can then go in and say, here’s what you’re missing, here’s what you don’t have to work on, but here’s what do have to work on here is how we can work together. So, for example, I’m gonna show you first of all, like the end. What we’re working toward. Now this is our model. It’s currently called the Sunshine growth model because it looks a little bit like a this is multiple iterations on it that I’ve been playing with, but let me zoom in here and then we can talk specifically about what the hell it even is. Okay.

So someone comes to me and this is based on just years and years of coaching freelance copywriters and particular but also marketing consultants, etcetera.

Someone comes to me and they’re like, Joe, I’m, you know, I’ve plateaued. I would love to get to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars is the most common thing that people say. I’m at about a hundred. I wanna get to two fifty. What’s stopping me?

And so really what I’m hearing is like you’d like to get to about a grand a day of consistent income. And so that could be twenty days of the work month that works out to about two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year or all the days, and that works out to about three hundred sixty thousand dollars a year. So that’s the problem that most people come to me trying to solve until they get to that and they’re like, okay. Now I wanna get to three million.

I got to three sixty. Now I wanna get to three point six. Let’s do that. And that would still come down to a lot of what we’re seeing here.

So this is how it breaks down and then I’m gonna show you how it draws out when we’re talking with people who are considering coming in to copy school professional, and then we’ll talk about what that means for you and for your new clients, leads when you’re having those lead conversations as well as how you deliver on something with clients So this is one way to do it, especially if you have felt scattered. If you felt like there, people come to you for all the things and you know know what to say no to. You never feel really good saying no.

People come to you and they’re all for the same general thing, but they have different problems within that same general thing. And your job is always like a little too custom. You don’t want it to always be custom because then it’s hard to offload things to people. You don’t have the leverage of like, here is how we do this work.

Go do it for me so I can mark up what you do, and get paid for not doing anything other than basically teaching you for you to deliver for me and then I then bill. Let me explain. Okay. So someone comes to me and says, Joe, basically, I wanna make a thousand dollars a day help Cool.

There are four actually five but four key parts that usually their work comes down to. So we can say okay. I can draw this out sharing my iPad as shown in the worksheet and I can say, okay, let’s talk through these four things, your skills, your authority, your money, and that means all things money. Money, not as leverage, but money as pricing.

Are you targeting the right audience? Do you have everything that you need? In order to make that money that you want to. Does your current audience only want to spend a thousand dollars on a single VIP day and then they’ll hit you up every six months for one.

You can’t build a business that way. Right? So and then we talked about leverage. And then what’s keeping you from all of those things too is also mindset mindset or copywriters.

Like for nobody else mindset is like such a challenge. It’s very hard. If you don’t have mindset issues and a lot of people here are working really well through any that you might have and maybe getting to a point where you don’t have mindset issues. Congratulations because that’s again and again. And I’ve said this before in Copyschool Pro. It’s such a big deal.

Getting your head right about your skills, about your authority, about a about your sense of scarcity and money out there. Who would pay me for this? And then leverage getting your head right about people, what it means to hire someone, what it means to document a creative process.

Okay. So we can draw this out. And that’s exactly what we want to do. And I’m going to switch over to, my iPad right away here and show you what we do and what you should be doing when you are going through a diagnosis of how to solve a problem with your clients or leads. Sorry.

Boop. Okay. Really simply what we do and what I’m suggesting that you do and my iPad’s been flipping around a lot today. So hopefully it doesn’t mess it up.

But we draw a circle. It’s allowed to be ugly. It doesn’t have to be perfect. And in the middle, we put our one thousand.

And we’re drawing this and sharing it with them and like talking them through it. Right? And then we have these parts that come out of there and we write in skills and sorry just going through this authority.

Money and leverage, then talk them through that. And this is what you’ll be doing with your own process Right?

So, like, okay. Here’s the problem we wanna solve. Here in the middle, it’s a thousand dollars a day. That’s what we’re aiming toward.

Here are the things that are keeping you pretty much. Think about this for your client. Your clients come to you and they say we want five hundred more paid conversions a month. So you put that in the middle.

Here. Five hundred more paid conversions a month. So you put like five hundred or you turn that into the dollar figure, like each conversion is worth ten dollars. So that’s five thousand.

Okay. Fine. So you put that in the middle and then you talk through the parts that are your process that are like critical to delivering five thousand dollars or those five hundred paid conversions a month. So they’re seeing, okay, you’re walking them through.

There’s skills. There’s authority. There’s money. There’s leverage. In in our case, probably not in yours.

Yours might be research and discovery.

And like the conversion copy writing process or something like that, right? Even if it’s for SAS brands, you might be like, okay, we have, you know, the five parts It’s more of a Pentagon shape and it’s got all five parts of pirate metrics. Let’s say. But let’s let’s focus on this. So here’s what I do.

Get the person who you’re talking to to also write this out. So say, hey, pick up a piece of paper. I want you to draw this with me. So you draw a circle just like this. Yours will be better than mine. I’m not an artist, etcetera.

Write these words from there. You write skills, you write authority, you write money, you write leverage. Great. Cool. Now all I want you to do is write this out and then we’re going to see how you’re doing on all of these points. So we have advanced skills you can sell. We have case studies and proof and we have advanced skills you can use.

So that’s like in this case it might be something more like advanced skills you can sell are am I really, really good at writing long form sales pages. Do I have case studies and proof for long form sales pages? And do I have advanced skills that I can use in my business like setting up a funnel for new leads so that I can sell them long form sales pages? Okay.

So write those down. Don’t do anything with them yet. And then you move on to the next one. Alright.

Next up is authority.

You’ve got your specialization or your niche, and you’ve got thought leadership.

My penmanship is shit. Don’t worry. And then you’ve got things like biz dev, which means everything to do with marketing, pipeline, etcetera. Cool. That’s how we start thinking through your authority.

When it comes to making money, do you have the right audience?

Do you have a standardized offer?

Maybe with a retainer option? Do you have, are you are you charging the right money for the thing that you deliver and the value that it is for your audience. And then we get into leverage and that is SOPs and documentation that is tools and process and that is people. Okay. So we walk them through this, getting them nodding along with us. They can ask questions as you go, and then comes the diagnosis.

This is where you go through and you have them identify if there are different ways to do this. There’s red, yellow, green is really common.

So anybody here yeah. Has probably gone through red, yellow, green. Some people have gone through red, yellow, green with us. So you go through and you say, okay.

On skills. If I was if I was bringing you into coffee school pro. Talk to me about are you red, are you yellow, are you green on advanced skills that you can sell? Do you feel really good about that.

And they can say like, well, I actually think I’m a pretty good copywriter. That’s not the problem. Great. So we’ll call that green.

How about proof? How are you on proof? Do you have good case studies? Yeah. I’ve got great case studies.

Okay. Cool. You’re good there. How about advanced skills you can use? What’s your funnel like?

If I don’t have a funnel okay cool then we’ll call that red and we’ll mark it as such. So you go through and you do that whole process with them and then by the end all you’re going to worry about are the things that are red. So if they’re not good at identifying where the red or yellow, that’s a sign that you probably shouldn’t work with them. If they’re like, we’re bringing on all of this.

Like, this, I’m perfect at all of this, and you’re like, Cool. You don’t need my help, peace, and get the hell out of the room. But if they’re decent at, like, identifying, like, You know, I thought we were green on that, but I think we might be yellow. And I thought we were yellow on that, but I think we might be red.

Then you can start identifying how you’ll work with them. So I’m read on skills I can use and thought leadership, and I’m read on Biz dev. I also don’t have any people. My tools are okay, but I don’t have a single SOP at all.

Great. So now we’re coming up with things where we can say, okay. We’re going to work on are these things. And then from there for your client, you can start saying okay.

We can talk through what we can do across all of these, areas of greatest opportunity build out a roadmap for what a project like that would look like, etcetera. Now this is possibly going to be hard to think through for you right now because this is focused on like coffee school pro. You, however, can do this exact thing for your clients as well, and you should be doing this for your clients. So now I’m going to go back to sharing the worksheet.

I’m just gonna zoom out here.

There.

So you can do the same thing for different stuff. Right? So here on this page, I’ve got a triangle shape that you might have for list offer copy. So let’s say you are working on, you’re in conversion copywriting and you sell sales pages.

That’s your thing. That’s what you wanna do. You wanna be perfect at it. You love it.

You’re gonna be amazing at it. Cool. You know it breaks down into list offer copy. Now the tricky thing with something like this is every part of this has to be something you can work on them with.

So if someone comes to you and says, I need a new sales page. I want it to make a hundred thousand dollars. You’re like, cool. Let’s talk.

Then you draw the triangle, you write lists, offer copy on there and you talk through lead age. Okay? Talk to me about your leads. How old are they?

How many fresh leads do you have? Are you red, green, or yellow on that? And then you color that in for whatever they are. Okay.

Now what about the quality of these leads? Where are they coming from? How are you finding them? Do they have the money?

What do you know about them? And they tell you that. Deliverability. Talk to me about how your emails are going right now.

Are people able to get to your sales page your emails, or is anything even happening there? Are you trying to drive people from Facebook, which is more about lead quality, straight to your sales page and they tell you if they’re red, yellow, or green on those things. You go around and do all of this and that can help you better diagnose not just the current project, but like a a bigger scale project that they’re buying into because they’re the ones who said I’m red on that. And if you can deliver on turning them from red to green, then it can go back through and do the the redo the diagnostic tool all the time, every at the end of each part of your project and be like, okay.

How are we feeling now about our lead age if that was a red and you got them there. Now they’re like, cool. Awesome job getting us to green. That’s amazing.

And you’ve got it documented for exactly what you have done for them.

But critically anything that’s showing in your diagnostic has to be something that you can do. Is where list offer copy can be a little bit tricky if you don’t do list stuff. If you’re like, I don’t attract leads, I can’t do anything for you. Then that’s a problem because they’re gonna walk away and go, oh, okay.

We have to go get some to take care of this, and then we’ll come back and talk to you later, which they might not do. They liked your diagnosis, great. But we wanna keep them here. So you would only break down your process.

This shape that you have into things that you will actually do. And that’s where if you are like, okay, I’m targeting SAS and they do care about pirate metric still, let’s say, not everybody that’s a lot of people have problem with it, but let’s just pretend. Okay. So you break down the five parts of pirate metrics, but you know you don’t do the first you don’t, you know, you don’t do the last one either.

So you would draw a triangle only for those three that you do. Okay. So your shape is dependent on the number of parts that you have here. A triangle is really easy and a circle is really easy.

You can draw a circle. You can break it up into four parts. We’re used seeing paragraphs. We’re used to seeing these sorts of shapes and our brains align with them.

Right? Like yes, if it’s a triangle, it’s a real thing. It’s kind of like rhyme is reason.

Same thing is here. So we could do research strategy writing and experimentation. This is the conversion copy writing process and then you get to say what parts are in here. So if you’re like all I do when it comes to research is jobs and new lead surveys.

I don’t wanna do anything else, then make it your two things. And you can say How are you all for job surveys? When’s the last time you did a jobs to be done, or interviews? When’s the last time you did a a jobs interview?

Set. And they’re like, we’ve never done one. I’m like, cool. You’re right on that new lead surveys.

How are you for that? And you can go through and walk them through this. And by the end, they’re like, shit, you’ve got a process. You have some way of helping me understand what my problem is in a way that nobody else ever has and you drew it for me, which is also a really interesting thing that only a pro is going to do.

I now know that I’m red on five things. I’m green on one thing. So that’s cool. I can take that back to my team and say, oh, we don’t have to worry about this.

Y’all, here are the five things we have to worry about. And when I hire you to do this work, we can then go back and say, okay. How are we now on this? Do you think we’re still red on this?

Are we yellow yet? And so on and so forth? This make sense to everybody?

Yeah.

Alright. Any questions about it?

Probably not yet. What I want you to do is hop into making your own for the people that you want to convert. So again, this is coming down to what’s your red thread or your one thing, what do you do, and try to think about what one thing you wanna sell more than anything.

If it’s like I just want fifty thousand dollar projects that that are like focused on x. I don’t know what that thing is. Or you know what it is. In some cases, I know what it is from talking with you, but for the whole group and anybody watching the replay, I don’t know what it is.

You know what it is. Try to know. If you don’t know, try to know, you’re allowed to build your future. This is what we’re doing.

So just like document the thing that you most wanna sell. I wanna sell fifty thousand dollar engagements that last two months and do these three things with this outcome. Okay, fine. Once you know that, then you can start to say what your process is to get there.

Now, process might not be the right word if you hear a process and you go, I don’t think it’s my process, you’re probably right. There are different ways to go about this. I wanna show you the end what it could look like, how it works, and then it’s up to you to come up with what that diagnostic is, and it can mean thinking through past calls you’ve had with clients and what they’ve shared with you or what you know you’re always delivering what you’re best at. But you definitely wanna think about your one thing and the only thing that you ever wanna sell if possible.

Okay?

Are you good to give this a shot for the next twenty minutes?

Yeah.

Just try it and then we’ll come back and share challenges you had with it or whatever Alright? Twenty minutes on the clock. I’m gonna stop recording. Thanks, Sarah.

Abby, if because it went so quickly, you need to share what you made. Let’s see it.

Okay. Right. Can you see my screen?

Just about yes.

Yeah. Is it tiny? Let me zoom in.

How’s that?

Cool?

Alright. Yes. We can see it. So just to be clear, all four parts of this you can deliver on.

Yeah. Including lead quality.

Yes.

Okay. But we have all the, yeah, part. Is it someone on your team or is it you?

It’s me. So I’m thinking, like, I’m thinking about my course here, but the course is basic. It’s it’s just the DIY version of my done for you offer.

So with the lead quality, the I do Facebook teach Facebook ad testing and then also, like, using thank you paid responses to make sure that you’re, like, bringing in the right people or that the messaging is resonating with the right people. So, yeah. Okay.

Awesome. Okay. So you walk them through this, and did you try, like, try it out because you had all this extra time? Like, did you try kind of pretending that you were walking a lead or even a prospective student through this model.

Yeah. Well, I was thinking, like, is this like your IP? Or are we free to chair this?

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. The idea is that now you go forward in you use it to close people and then deliver.

Yeah. Because I’ve I’ve been, like, running into a problem recently with my course where like, I wanna shift away from, like, the, kinda make money every day messaging and more towards, like, for people who have already tried it and failed, so a more kind of advanced training.

And I think, like, having something like this actually in the webinar would help kind of widen the out so that they can identify, like, all the areas that are gonna be, like, limiting their conversion. So, yeah, so it was, oh, that’s cool. I like it.

Awesome. Yeah. It is a sales tool, and also a, a way of measuring success as you go. Like a sense of progress when most of the time the way we measure these things is like, well, did I?

Is it done or isn’t it? And did I get sales or didn’t I or whatever that like bigger goal is? It’s like, well, no, there’s components along the way. And if we can make those all green, then you’re more likely to get that end goal that you’re looking for.

So, yeah, definitely use it in sales of any kind, webinars sales calls, all of it. Cool. Any questions for any, for Abby from anybody?

No? Alright. Fun. Cool. I will talk more about how to integrate this into the process and like modifying modifying offers and things as as we go.

Anybody else wanna share or chat about what didn’t work? What you’re still working on. Keep in mind, I’ve been working on this for a long time. And, like, I still have tweaks that I’m making and like, full on changes, like mindset was its own thing for a while, then I was like, no, mindset is across all of these things. So, I put it in the middle.

Johnson?

Yeah. I was wondering, because some of the things that I were down I I don’t have a process or a system for, but I I think that areas that I could cover, later as the product is fleshed out, or full of service. What do you have any advice for is that should I try and focus on stuff that I can just do right now or do a separate one that’s what I can do right now and one that’s more sort of future based?

Can it stand well without those parts that you don’t currently do well? Like how feasible is it to cut those parts out and have it still work?

Yeah. Sure. I could probably just merge them to together and do it more generalized because I’m kinda breaking things down maybe a little too far. Yeah. I could do that.

Yeah. If you can pull it, then you’ve you’ll confidently know you can deliver everything showing there. Right? So you wanna be able to obviously have a strong position of confidence in every call that you’re taking any webinar you might be running where you do this kind of thing.

So cut out what you can’t deliver yet, and then maybe just only add it back in when you’ve got somebody in your back pocket who can do that thing for you or when you can do it. Mhmm. Yeah. Cool.

Yeah. Okay. Cool. And then just make sure that the story comes together. Again, most people who you’re going to be showing this to don’t have a better sense for what you’re talking about than you do So whatever you show them is true.

It’s it’s like it’s not necessarily going to open up a whole bunch of skepticism.

So if you leave something off knowing eventually you’re gonna add that thing on, then that’s cool. Right? Cause they’re not thinking way you got this wrong, Johnson, you forgot about this point. Like, they’re thinking like, cool, cool, cool, cool. I’m red on this. Oh, I’m red. Yeah.

So that’s actually super helpful. Yeah. And she’s just like both of these exercises, this one and last week’s one. I found useful, not just for the lows itself, but also in sort of thinking about the areas, that I might be using these things in the future, just the red thread stuff and for developing a new, idea. So, anyway, it’d be cool. Thank you, anyway.

Big it. Love it. That’s cool. Wicked it. Anybody else wanna chat? But what they did.

Can I just ask Joe? Like, do you recommend right?

Do you recommend, the whole drawing it live or having the design. Like, I mean, I love I was also doing it in Canva, like, So bringing it on, bringing it with us, ready to show them, or, doing it on the call.

It’s more engaging when you have something to watch. Right? So if it’s like if you just bring up a model, then I’m reading through it while you’re talking.

If you bring up a blank sheet and you draw it and then you write a word, I’m engaged. Like, I’m waiting for what’s next. Right? So, and that’s what we really want is not for them to jump ahead and think they got it but for you to control that whole flow and then you say and now let’s talk about what you’re red and green on and then you color in red, color it, show them that thing. It’s for me, a horrible penmanship.

Everything’s a mess. But that’s not really the point. Right? They’re watching. They’re not saying like, so why don’t you pay better attention in grade three?

They were teaching you how to like make it look good. They’re just like going with it. Right? And like all they’re interested in is what am I red on?

Oh, what am I green on? Thank god. I’m green, but they’re watching the whole way. So, yes, long story short.

I do recommend that you draw it.

And I also recommend that I didn’t wanna make this like part of today’s session, but find someone in the room here to try this out with where their your perspective client and you hop on a call and you say talk me through this and they’re just pretending. So just like do some role playing then they can do the same for you and you can like work out the kinks of actually presenting it live and new ways to draw it and think about it. Yeah.

Cool.

Cool. Fine.

Anybody else?

I can share mine.

Cool. Yeah.

So typically what I do, even if I don’t have a drawing for it, is I start by looking at the campaign, figuring out which, what keywords they’re targeting, what their campaign looks like, whether it’s on Google or LinkedIn or Facebook, etcetera. And then figuring out what they need to prioritize. So if that’s landing pages, that’s landing pages, it might be the website, the homepage, it might be, the ads, so figuring out exactly what they need to optimize.

Then going through sales calls, sometimes that means going through like g two or Kaptura reviews, and then usually tools.

Sometimes users are testing, but definitely hotjar and Google Analytics. Then figuring out what the best framework is to use.

I I think that defining the persona would also be part of this, although I’m not sure that’s something I would be part of. That’s something I wouldn’t ask them about, because of that would determine, like, is this Are they targeting mid market? Are they targeting enterprise? Are they targeting medium businesses? And within those three categories, which, level of seniority.

But I guess that would fall under research, then actually writing, then usability testing meaning, like, validating the the copy and then finally AB testing.

Cool. It looks great. The only thing I would say is, there are some things on here that are big, like underwriting, you’ve got all those assets. And so if if it’s hard for them to identify what red, yellow, or green, then that’s kind of tricky. So what can you do here even if it comes down to combining strategy and research into one like thinking upfront, right? Like thinking or planning or something like that.

I would just encourage you to break up writing more.

So that because I might look at this and go like, okay. While I suck on CRO prioritization, I’m red on that. I’m green on tools. I’m green on VOC.

I’m probably wrong about being green on VOC, but I say that. Analytics. I don’t know. I have no idea.

Like, why don’t think about it that way? Maybe. Right? So I’m yellow there.

Writing. Well, I have a bunch of those. Let’s call it green.

And that’s the problem. Like, they they might have a bunch of things and think that’s okay.

It just that’s the only thing that stood out to me. That assets little piece of the pie is containing a lot. Can do something to open it up?

Well, the idea being that if they’re, like, the the asset that they would need would depend on what they’re prioritizing. So if their landing pages are leaking leads, then it would be landing pages. If they’re not driving off traffic at the top of the funnel, then it would be ads, And if their maybe their ads are not getting clicked on, then maybe it would be even higher. It would be more like brand awareness, social organic. Kind of work. That’s why I lumped them together.

That’s cool. And then I wonder though, then if you’re really To me, I’m envisioning a sort of triangle now. That’s more like leads or attract.

Convert and, like, retain or refer or revenue or something else. And then you could get into might be strategy in the I don’t know, but to me it feels like yeah. There’s something there, and I think what you’re saying is right. It might just need a different I don’t know. A different shape. Yeah.

I could do that. Because usually the question is, well, where are we leaking weeds or why aren’t we getting enough leaves? Why is our pipeline a mess?

Yeah. Great.

And the question is like, well, how do we figure that out? Because that’s not an easy question to answer.

Not. Not. But if you would dedicate a whole side of a triangle or whatever that final shape is, I don’t know, to leads then you can talk honestly about, like, okay, leads are red, but once we get them to convert them, we’re green on version and then we’re sucky on experimentation or whatever that other part is.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. That makes more sense.

Okay. Cool. Love it. That’s great.

Thanks Naomi. Anybody else wanna share or talk or share anything about what they just saw?

Can I share something?

Abby were you commenting?

Or I was just saying that it looked really nice.

Like, it looked it looked very, like, Yeah. Sounds good. Good job. Awesome.

Totally. Stacy, please go ahead.

I I have one that I wanna share that I didn’t do on the call today, but I did in the past. Okay. I just wanna share it because I want somebody to appreciate it.

Nice. It’s messy. Okay. It’s a scorecard.

It’s a scorecard, but the the thing the under and and I love the idea of using in this in a sales call, although everything I do in my universe is structured to avoid me ever have get on a call with anyone.

Okay.

So I set up my three things. I I created the ABCs of superior content, which are audio brand and craft. So those are the three things. And the audience part will, you know, that would involve the voice of customer and interviews, etcetera, understanding the audience, then brand has to do with brand voice, personality, and then Craft is the actual writing of content, which would be combining journalistic writing persuasions, storytelling with subject matter expertise.

So I go through and and and ask them six questions in each of in each of these three areas. So there’s eighteen questions altogether, and then it gives the gives the results in a scorecard and then I use score app, which is a good lead gen processing sort of follow-up thing. Yeah. So I just wanted share because because I’m proud of my scorecard.

That’s cool. I love it, and the ABC is a really nice thing to remember, obviously.

And it could go really nicely in a triangle and you could clearly, like, diagnose how am I on audience, how am I on brands, I don’t remember what the third one was. Sorry. And now it’s Craft. Craft.

That’s the actual writing. Yeah. And it does display. It displays it in that targeted, you know, thing where it scores them on each of the three areas in the in the report that it generates.

Nice. That’s cool. That’s great. Yeah. Even if they, like, diagnosed themselves and then went through the score.

Anyways, it’s cool. It’s cool. Yeah. Love it.

Cool. Anybody else?

We’re good. Okay. Work this out. I do recommend that you like start making it part of your process, you’ll be surprised at how engaging it is for people when they see it drawn out.

You’re talking through and asking them questions, especially if in sales calls, you struggle to like know what to say next. This is like a really clear way to look like you’re a freaking pro and have done this a million even if it’s like your first time doing it live. Just practice with other people in the room. If you don’t have anybody to practice with yet, chances are good.

Someone else doesn’t have anybody to practice with yet too. So, feel free to just chat right now and say, hey, does anybody wanna role play this with me?

And if not, go over in Slack and do it there too, and we’ll we’ll see what happens.

Cool.

Anybody have questions? We’ve got thirty minutes ish left. If you have to go, cool, respect your time. If you have questions to ground, Katie, do you have one?

Yeah. So I’m can you just speak a bit more to, like so we’ve established where they’re red and where they’re yellow and where they’re green?

Am I aiming to then put to, like, can you, take it into the pitch? So, like, am I aiming to put together one proposal that covers, like, first, we’re gonna address the red, and then we’re gonna talk about the yellow, or how do I go into turning that into an offer?

Exactly. Yes. So I think there’s lots of ways you can do it. Right? So whatever is triggering for you, like in your imagination, roll with that but the really yeah the thing that you wanna walk away with is now it’s not just, hey, I need a sales page, but it’s also, hey, I need to get better at this, this, this, and this.

Your project now got bigger. You’re also a consultant. That’s more strategic. Right? So you walk away from there going Here are the four things we need to work on before we even work on writing your sales page.

Let me take this away, put together, some ideas for you. You send me x, y, and z document that I need. So you said you’re strong on research. Send me some so I can look at it. And then we’re gonna hop on a call, and I’ll walk you through my plan for how we can hit all of these things you read on in x period of time that you’ve told me you want this off like the thing that’s in the center of it, the five hundred paid conversions added a month or whatever.

We wanna get there in three months time. But we have to make these red things all green. We’ve agreed on that. You agree that you’re red on these things. So now we’re gonna go forward. I’ll put the other and I’m gonna come back and talk you through that plan. That’s a really, like, clear way for you to now go off and run a project.

Does that make sense? Like here’s my project now and it’s informed not just by what you said you think you need but what I have diagnosed you as really needing.

Yeah. I mean, I see this is super useful because I think I mentioned on our last the last call that I made it to live, like, I just feel like my project ideas are always really big, and I struggle to break them down into components. So this feels really helpful for that.

I guess what I’m taking away from what you’ve just said is like it would be helpful for me to have a sense of the hierarchy of the lights for for lack of better words so that I know, like, if that’s red, obviously, we’re gonna do this first and, and, like, turning that then into a proposal?

Yeah. And it’s sort of a process. So I said the word process, but I know sometimes it won’t feel like a process. So if you’re like, but it’s not a process. Okay. Don’t make it a process. But to me, it is.

To me, it’s like, okay, if it’s list offer that’s an order in which things go. Right? The conversion copywriting process has parts to it.

And so that should also lead to a sort of hierarchy, right, where you’re like, well, we can do everything we want with copy. But if your list is a mess or the people coming to it or wrong. If you’re red on that, no. So we clearly have to solve the the left part of the triangle first, whatever that’s called. I don’t geometry.

But we solve that over there. We solve list.

Then once we’re red once we’re green on those things, then we’ll talk about off for that list. Okay? And then we’ll talk about copies. You can start to see a gantt chart forming of how that project could go.

Like we’re gonna nail list I can’t come up with that live on a call. That’s not your job to come up with it live on a call. Right? You’re like, I’m I’m gonna go away and think about this for you.

You come up with the things you’re gonna do for improved list quality and quantity in x period of time.

Put that on the gantt chart here. What’s we’re gonna do in week one, week two, week three. Then week three, we’re also gonna start working on offer and and week six will be ready to work on copies. Now, you have like this project mapped out.

You’ve also got a built in way to go back and optimize things, right? So you can say we got through list offer copy, the parts of the triangle, red turn to yellow on these things and yellow turn to green, but now let’s go back and do more to further optimize it. So you have the initial project, as well as a map in effect or a retainer to optimize for performance. Does that make sense, Katie, or is that too much?

It makes sense.

I feel like I’m gonna have to revisit my, like, the categories that I’ve throat to make sure that they have a clear Okay.

Flow from one to the next. Okay. Yeah. And know I was just thinking like, well, what if they’re like, well, I don’t wanna work on that first. I wanna work on, like, I don’t I don’t wanna work on my I just wanna work on my sales page or something. I guess then it’s a question of like, do you wanna work with them?

I would say that’s the question and then. If you know list is actually red and they’re like, I don’t care, write the copy.

That’s not what I do. I can the copy will never convert if your list is garbage. Sorry. We gotta nail that and that’s where you have to be able to work on list.

In this case, right? You have to say like, no. I’m gonna nail this for you, then you’re gonna have you might not even need to work on the copy. It might just be a list look.

We’re green across the board on coffee.

So but that’s yeah. You you’re not just diagnosing what they need but are they a good fit for you to work with? They should walk away from this going. Holy shit, Katie.

No one’s ever shown it to us this way. That was great. How do we start nailing through like I had no idea that’s how this worked. That’s like the objective.

And if they don’t do that, they’re probably gonna be pretty tough to work with.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. I know it’s easy for me to say. Like, push away these people who don’t wanna do the first part of the process, but we all already know you. They’re not gonna be a good fit. Yeah.

Stacy, I know you have an AMA and then Abby.

So, my my question is about a project that I’m currently working on. I just did, message frameworks for this client often I work with enterprise companies. So I’m sort of a step removed from being able to get into benchmarking and AB testing and things like that because it’s also siloed off in big companies. In this particular instance, it’s a smaller company. They’re like a twenty million company, and my messaging framework meeting was with the whole c suite of, you know, so I had all four c level people.

So now we’re moving into actually doing a wireframe for the home page. And I’m working with that mostly with the CMO.

So they want to do an AB test against their current homepage with what I create. And so since I’m not used to sort of benchmarking before a project, I wanted to get some feedback on what I might be able to do as far as what what to ask for to establish some ben benchmarks and test against and any any tips about you know, that process because I know you do a lot having to do with the, with data, and it’s just something that I’m usually a step removed from.

Sure. So they are split testing though. Right?

They’re using Yes.

Optimizely or a tool like that.

They well, they they want AB test I haven’t talked to them about the mechanics of how they’re doing it, but I do know they want to split test, driving traffic and, you know, testing their current homepage against a new homepage that I’m writing the copy for.

Right. So understanding how the control is performing is Good. They should be telling you that, right? And then they’ll tell you the, metrics when they tell. Like, here’s here are the KPIs for this page.

It’s a homepage. So it’s likely you’ll need to document things like, amount of traffic coming to it, traffic sources, coming to it as well. If they’re using it as a landing page for Facebook ads and other things like that, It’s a problem. Right? Like, because the test at that point becomes less about a scientific test and more about like a game, where you’ve got traffic coming from weird sources that could have been brought in by any number of ads, etcetera. And they’re landing on this page. They’re so different.

That it’s almost like there are too many variables. I know it’s all in the variable of audience, but it’s so uncontrolled.

That your test is just going to feel fake. So understand where traffic is coming from. Try to get them on board with narrowing it down to their ideal audience. And I know that means organic traffic you can’t do anything about either, but people who are searching and landing on your homepage are likely not look you lose when we’re talking about business. This is SAS. This is a software company?

Or It’s, it is tech.

Yes. It’s it’s tech. So no Because it’s a CDN. It’s a it’s enterprise CDN.

Okay. Cool.

Good. So we can imagine that organic traffic that lands there. Is there by design in some way? So cool. What’s the traffic like that’s coming to it? How are they converting right now? So you need quantity of traffic than like a understanding a qualitative understanding of quality of traffic.

And then you need to know what that existing conversion rate is and what conversion rate means for them is likely going to be clicks. If it’s on the homepage, it’s probably clicks. The question is clicks to where?

We wanna drive sign ups to a a trial sign up for a free account.

Can they sign up for the free account from that page, or do they get driven to another page?

They can sign up on the homepage currently. And they, and and it’s not very focused and it can be much better than it is now.

Okay.

In other words, the homepage is not driving sign ups, and I think it could drive sign ups much more than it does.

Okay. Is there an email address field on the homepage?

That’s like start your trial?

Yes. There is.

Yes. There is. Oh, that’s an existing thing. Cool. You can optimize that. That’s great. So that would be probably number one.

It sounds like your number one goal is trial starts.

Trial starts. Yes.

Okay. So you need to document, know the the control and how it’s doing on trial start but also optimizely, we’ll know that too.

So you don’t you don’t have to write anything down if they’re using the right tool and if you’re all aligned on, what the objective is, like what, how are you going to measure it in a testing platform? You can set up multiple goals, and that’s trickiest part. You don’t want to set up too many goals. Home pages are hard though because things like bounce are gonna be an actual consideration on a homepage.

Try to keep them on task with What is the number one thing that this page is solving for? From a business perspective, why does the business invest money in this homepage. Why is this test a priority right now? And if it is, we wanna get trial starts as soon as they land there, then throw every other way of measuring the page out the door.

Don’t worry about bounce rate. We have to try scary things and some people are gonna bounce. And maybe they won’t. Maybe it’ll hold more people.

We’re not gonna worry about that. All we’re worried about is trial starts. So how does optimizely or whatever tool they use measure trial starts. What can you do in the tool?

Is it just like once they’ve clicked this button successfully or once they’ve landed on the next page is a common way to do that test. Are they landing on a confirmation page for like your trial is now started or landing an app? Which can also be tricky because there’s lots of different ways to land in at from a home page oftentimes. Point being, trial starts is what matters.

So document that Nothing else really matters if that’s your goal. There’s so many things to measure on a homepage. Try to control how much they’re thinking about. Does that help, Stacy?

Yes. Yes. That helps very much. And I will be re re listening to this recording to make sure I get all of that. Okay. Thank you.

DLDR is like trial starts is all that you’re gonna focus them on. Yeah. Cool.

Hey. Yeah. So I have kind of it’s like a mindset strategy question. I’m gonna try and articulate it as best as I can.

So I’m looking at, like, the prioritization matrix, and I’m trying to kind of, like, find my high reward low friction task and, like, the twenty percent of my efforts that generate eighty percent of, like, the revenue. And the things the thing that, like, does the most of me at is podcast, but then like, so speaking on the podcast, it’s it’s my kind of, like, high reward low friction, but then it’s, like, getting on the podcast, then it becomes kind of, like, the question of, like, likelihood of success as well, because it’s like a podcast could potentially be high reward, but then it’s like, I gonna even get on it? Like, how do I get on it? And it’s kind of like so how do you, like, balance thinking about those things, like, the how the how to get to the, like, high reward thing, like, in terms of is that did I yeah.

Yeah. I think so.

It means to me it sounds like it’s, like, of, like, leverage.

The first thing that comes to mind is, like, okay, who is trying to book you on there? Do you have a VA or assistant of some kind pitching for you.

I have a VA that, like, makes a list and that I pitch them.

Can you train the VA to pitch?

I I can. The reason I haven’t is because I posted in, like, the Slack about and, having, like, whether to have my B. I pitch, and then Christie said she wouldn’t even, like, look at, like, a podcast application if it was wasn’t sent by the person.

So that kind of Oh, no.

The video is pretending to be you.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. They’re just they’re signed it. They’re sending from your email address a hundred percent. And it’s just like, hey, Abby here. Just a template that they then know how to modify because you’ve taught them. You took an hour to teach them how to do this thing well for you. And steal it from your email address, and that’s it.

Mhmm.

So it’s like thinking about, like, how to automate kind of the steps to the high reward stuff or, like, outsource, minimize friction.

Do you have an SOP for it that your VA can then be trained on? And then when you do, if getting on podcasts is a huge high value win for you, but it’s it’s a slog to get there. It’s a it’s a quantity game a lot of the time. Like how much as you put out there.

Then yeah, outsource that. Send that off. That’s a great thing for your VA to do. It doesn’t take specialized skills.

Not if they have your training, yeah, to do it. So I get the VA on it, but yeah, send from your email address or something that’s a good fake of your email address.

Like AP at instead of Abby at or whatever.

Mhmm.

Cool. Yeah. That makes so much sense. You make it sound so obvious. Of course.

Thank you.

No. No worries. Awesome. Anna.

Hey. I just had a question about the ebook I’m writing right now.

Love it.

So, I think I know the answer to this, but I wanna just confirm. It is fair game to quote any studies that are publicly out there. Right?

What about, like, screenshots of that’s because it’s on pricing page. So can I can I use screenshots or pricing pages that are out there in public right now? Or do I have to, like, seek permission?

Or I think Jessica wants to answer this.

I’m watching your face, Jessica. Oh, no.

I thought you did for, like, the folks that No.

I just I just wanna make sure everybody knows I’m engaged. I don’t Oh, yes. I do know the answer.

You guys publishing for us. So I thought like, oh, you probably have a good take on this.

Yeah.

Yeah. So in my experience, it’s what are you copying or screenshotting and is it proprietary?

So there are some cases where you’re not allowed to use an image without paying a fee for it.

But you usually know those things. Right? A screenshot of someone’s website is it’s a public thing as long as you cite, and I would recommend citing everything about it that it’s copyrighted by X company. The screenshot was taken on this date.

And that’s that’s cool. Then you can do that. It can also be actually a pretty useful way to start promoting your book when the time comes. When you’re like, Hey, I used your page as a great example in my book. It’s coming out. Do you wanna copy of it?

That kind of thing. Right? And then they might say like, oh, I didn’t realize people were just using screenshots of our website. What? And you might be like, oh, fuck.

But, that’s just the conversation that you have at that point, but it doesn’t have to be weird. I no one’s ever run any quotes that, like, when Ann Handley put me in her book, I didn’t find out till someone was like, Joe, you’re in Ann’s book. And same for product led growth. Nobody told me this was gonna happen.

But I would just ended up in there. And I wasn’t like, damn you, Ann. I was like send flowers to Ann. So it’s it’s it’s I wouldn’t worry about it just do what you can to cite where it came from. And wherever possible, only take screenshots of things where you’re gonna tell a good story about it. If it’s, like, a bad thing, mock up a version of it and just remove anything.

Actually, that was gonna be my my next question. So if I just mock up and make a random, like, I could take it a pricing page and and then play around with it on Photoshop and change it up completely. Just to use the bad example.

That’s obviously fine. Right? Because no one’s gonna know where it came from or yeah.

Yeah. And then the reader also likes you a little more. Right? You’re like, look, these are some bad things I’ve seen.

I’m not gonna call anybody out. Everybody means while you, the reader, you mean well. But here’s what are what people are doing wrong. And then you can show, like, mock ups, but not the thing.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Last question.

Does it matter how long the ebook is? So I I I thought I would wrap something up in, like, thirty pages.

Okay.

But it’s it looks like it’s gonna get to, like, seventy pages.

And I’m wondering, like, are people gonna read that or Who is your target?

K. Good question.

So c level execs that will Yeah. Because the whole idea is to build authority and and show that this is a comprehensive thing.

On pricing pages. Right? So someone who gets a hold of it, the impression I want them to get is like, oh, didn’t know there was so much to talk about when it came to Verizon pages. It seems like this person knows this thing.

A hundred percent. Yes. So I just chatted over the title of a book called write useful books, go read it through your kindle, read it right away.

It’s great, but it will make you identify who your target audience is and things like referral referrals that are built into their heads. So it’s gonna be really useful.

Read right useful books as you’re doing this.

Think about that target audience and think about where they’re reading it. I think I’ve talked about this before with April.

With obviously awesome. She was gonna get it traditionally published.

Sorry if I’m repeating it, but it’s really good advice. The traditional publisher was it needs to be sixty thousand words and she’s like, no, I can’t. And the reason was for her was, but I travel on planes and I read books on planes, like that’s when a lot of sea levels in their careers hop on. That’s when they that’s when they read books.

So if that’s the case, then how long is the average flight that a sea level is going to able to read your book. Three or four hours. So you have to make it start to finish in three to four hours, which is like I think it’s something like thirty thousand words at most, knowing that they’re just skimming a lot of it and just like rolling through it.

But, yeah, thirty thousand words, I think is what came out as like the ideal length for a c level to read a book.

Thousand words. Okay. I’ll keep that in mind.

Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Thanks.

And of course, we have love screenshots in there.

It’s gonna go a lot faster. It doesn’t mean you have to take up the whole flight though. Like, if they’re able to finish the book and start writing the email to you that’s like, loved your book, let’s talk. That’s a good thing.

Right? If they can get all that work done on the plane and then walk off and go. Awesome. What’s next?

You know?

Yeah. Got it.

Awesome. Love it. Read write useful books.

Okay. Anybody else?

I do have a couple like brainstorm questions. They’re very low. Like, you probably be like really are you asking me this, but I just wanted to get brain power because we have a lot of that in the room if that’s okay.

Yeah. We do. Yeah. We got eight minutes still. Let’s go.

Okay. I’m trying to think of which one Alright. I’ll go with the second question because I have a feeling your mindset has changed around this a little bit. So I kind of Soft launched my new newsletter called the holiday win and So what I’m wondering is you used to do a lot of free stuff to grow your list, but you’ve recently made comments about not doing that in the books and that. So I’m just wondering how are we feeling about that right now? Any suggestions?

About free content? To grow your email list. Yes.

Right. I mean, our free content’s just different now. Our free content that grows our email list is on Instagram, and with like many chat and boards. Right? That’s really it.

But still, they’re still free. It’s just it’s just different.

I know the the name makes me wanna watch a Hallmark movie though to be very clear.

No. The goal was to rip it off of the old movie.

So that’s Oh, cool.

That’s awesome. Good. Yeah.

Yeah. But give a give it away in your newsletter. The good thing of are you using Substack?

No. So you mentioned something about Substack and then I had to do research on what was the latest drama and then I was like dang it. So do I grow it on there or not?

Feels a little problematic.

Yeah. No. We’ve stopped using Substack too. Yeah.

But I thought if you were okay with it, No.

I saw the research or I looked it up after you mentioned it. You’re ruined my email strategy, Joe. Alright.

We’re ruined mine too.

So the so whatever alternative comes out for sub stack, that doesn’t allow Nazis to be the Nazis on there.

Is, hopefully the next thing to use then just because you can charge for your archives. And if you have good shit you’re giving out, you should be charging for the archive.

So that’s that. But your goal is to grow your list. And if your goal is to grow your list with quality leads, then free is obviously is the is the way to go. It’ll get more people on.

It’s just a question of how quality are those are those leads. But a lot of them are quality just because they’re looking for free out of the gate doesn’t mean they’re ever going to be looking for free. Just wanna make sure you’re not full of crap. Right?

So let’s try you for free and then pay you later.

Yeah. That’s my take. Does anybody else have thoughts on this?

Do you give stuff away free to grow your list? Any tips?

No one wants to talk about it.

I no. I mean, I already have any advice it’s an interesting question, but I I don’t know. I think, I think about the content itself being, yeah, engaging and teaching something. Maybe it’s just a hint of something and you’re not giving anything away. I mean, I’m thinking of the the email the the the the people I’ve subscribed to who I read. And it’s it’s supposed to be people who are into entertaining first.

Maybe, yeah, actually first. And then secondly, teach me stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

James Claire is three two one method, work really well, and there’s another copywriter who somehow I got on this list.

He does three two one for copywriting.

Three examples to something and then one tip or something like that. And it’s a good read.

So, I don’t know, food for thought as you think of the format as well for your newsletter.

Cool. Naomi.

So I want to get more into Go ahead podcast.

And so I was building a list of, podcasts that I thought were relevant And somebody mentioned to me that you that I could probably write a script and just outsource that, have somebody put that together and send an email to all those people. But I was I thought that would be too impersonal that they get a lot of they got a lot of mail looking for guests and that it would make a lot more sense to do it. Like, actually listening to the podcast and mentioning something relevant, So I was wondering what you thought about that. Is that something?

Yeah. Did you hop off for a bit on this call already?

Yeah. I had two during my meeting for the ending.

And then you hop back up. So Abby actually asked the same question, and it was about podcast pitching, how to make it personal, And so, really quick and it’s in the replay if you want more detail, but it really is, documents like a template.

For outreach to these podcasts, and then, teach your VA or somebody that is inexpensive to send these pitch emails from your email address. So it looks like it’s from Naomi. It’s written in the first person. Hi, etcetera.

And they all do the research too. So the VA listens to the podcast or reads the reviews or whatever the whatever the thing is that teach the VA to do and then they have a goal that you give them of like five pitches a day or whatever that goal is that you need for them to to get your name out there. But yeah, it’s an SOP. This is the leverage part of the big sunshine growth model. Of have that SOP with templates associated with it, and then teach a VA to do it. And just make it look personal by personalizing and sending it from naomi at.

Okay.

Great. Awesome. Thanks. Is there another question there?

Are we good? I have one more question. Sorry. It’s another brainstorm one. Okay. So I did do the the win is a hundred million offers.

I flushed out the whole seasonal sale holiday offer thing. So Next the sales page, right? So and now this. So my only thought is I really need to get more people see like going through this process so I can finesse it and I’m getting still a lot of email and I know a lot of that is authority related but to get some quicker like and I get a few seasonal sales and no door.

Yeah. Any suggestions about more of a fast approach to that part?

Like, you’re just trying to get people to test this out on?

Essentially.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s like you said on really no dollar offers. It’s formosa kind of solution here, I would do what he has said to do in that case. Do you have a system?

If you have system, then you post on LinkedIn and say, hey, I’m looking for five companies that meet this criteria to run through my system on the next holiday for free in exchange for me being able to daw to tell the world about this and to take examples away from it. That’s a third thing to do. But just make sure you have it as like system so that you’re not guessing your way through their holiday emails for free.

Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. I’ll do that.

Okay. Fine. Alright. Well, we’re at the end of our time. Thanks, everyone, for your great questions. Nobody shared a win, but I wasn’t gonna harp on that too much. It’s pretty mean about it.

My win is being in CSV. That is a win.

Okay. Awesome. The replay will be available later. Thanks y’all, and we will be following up more on this diagnostic tool as we chat more.

Okay? Okay. Thanks, though. Have a good one. Bye.Today, as you saw in the worksheets, thanks for coming on camera. We’re gonna be talking about a diagnostic tool, and we’ll get into the details of that. As always, we’re gonna kick it off with some training And then, in today’s training though, we’ll be spending some time doing, like, work, based on the training. So expect to, you know, put aside twenty minutes at the end of this to start doing some thinking through what we’re talking about. And then we’ll do the usual AMA.