So today’s mini training fifteen minute training is essentially on upgrading the this is for you section. The reason I decided to to work on this with all of you is because when we were talking about Money Make, I realized that this is a section that over, I would say, the last, at least, last twelve months has been one of the most clicked on sections, and, also, it’s has been really, really good, from a conversion, a click to enroll, point of view as well for our clients so much that we are now including it on baitless pages as well. So it just made sense to include it, as part of the screen because it’s a really, really simple and easy to add to a sales page, and the impact has been, quite eye opening.

So you should have your workbooks with you.

And then I’ve so I would recommend let’s open those up. And but I’ll share my screen as well so we can kind of go through it altogether.

And then I have, like, a short short kind of for you, which is more you know, let’s look at how this is being done in the real world.

So why this is via sections work?

Caveat. In the past, I have done a self identifying bullet section, training, for CSP, and I would recommend this revisiting that as well. This is just like I even call it a treat this is a two point o. This is just like a next layer to that.

So these sections work mainly because of a lot of reasons. Self identification or self relevance, it reduces decision fatigue. It makes it really easy. In fact, I’m gonna share a really cool story about how someone’s business for you section today helped me decide that it’s not the perfect offer for for me to kind of just play around with anyways.

So reduces decision fatigue.

I didn’t need confirmation to if you’re going to guess. This is me. This is me. This is me. Those creates those micro conversions.

Obviously, seeing what transformation is possible, which is a key part of the business for you two point o section, makes it really easy also to kind of, you know, drive that conversion.

And then, of course, this is not for you, but it’s helped you filter out, people, but also creates a sense of boundaries and exclusivity too. So the regular self identify section focuses essentially on relevance and recognition, and we’ll see an example of that. The upgraded or the three f, this is view section, which I’ve been testing out for a while now, clarifies both fit and redness, calls and filters out. This is really key and focuses on both psych on psychographic alignment, values, emotional state.

Most business video sections focus on personality or pain, which is great, but we wanna go deeper and also look at identity, commitment, mindset, values, all of that good stuff.

Most of business view sections are one-sided. This is for you, but there is no this is not for you. Or if it is there, then it’s very superficial, very vague, which really isn’t helpful.

And then finally, most regular self identified sections lack visual, transformation cues. Like, what can they expect? What’s the future here?

So the three f one focuses on fit, filter, and future. And whether you use AI or you wanna kinda just answer the questions when you’re writing it, these are the questions you wanna ask to write these sections.

Who is this best suited for? What values or mindset? So when you’re talking about who is this best suited for, you’re not just looking at demographics, unless, of course, those demographics are really important to you. You’re offering you’re looking more at values. We’re looking more at mindset. We’re looking more at readiness. We’re looking more at past experiences.

We’re looking at, you know, what’s going on in their life, all of those things.

Filter, who is this not for? And, again, we wanna be super specific here. This is not a place for us. There is never a place to be vague or, you know, or, gloss over things on a sales page, but this is definitely not one of those places where you wanna kinda just, you know, play it safe.

You really, really wanna get clear on who is it not for.

So if an offer is not for someone who does not have the financial capacity to pay for it, you should not hesitate from putting it on the page. If it is not for someone who’s who needs more, you know, specific professional help, you have to put it on that. You have to say this is not for you if you need a, b, and c or if you do not have the financial capacity to pay for the program. We or, you know, especially if, for a client of ours, we were very clear that we urge you not to go into debt for this.

So be very, very clear. And then future, what can they expect? Who will they become in the process? Again, be very specific.

Be very clear. And, obviously, be in integrity and be honest about it. Goes without saying. But you wanna talk about what change can they expect.

So the worksheet basically lays it all out here. We’re gonna look at I’m going to going to present.

And sorry. We’re gonna go back a little.

So what we’re gonna talk about is this section is what I’ve learned is do not you always, always, always wanna include it on a sales page. Why?

Because like I said, at the beginning, it’s been eye opening to see how the heat map lights up when people reach the section, like, they’re clicking and the it just goes from so you know how a heat map goes?

It makes it, like, really red at the top because that’s, like, your first section, and then it kinda tapers down till it gets really, really cold and blue towards the end.

So most heat maps that I’ve seen that have this section go from hot to lukewarm to cool, and then it by the time it reaches the section again, it just blows up and goes all hot again.

Plus the CTA buttons below this section had the highest number of clicks, more than even the hero section, which is mind boggling to me. Anyways, that is why it’s critical for conversions as far as I’m concerned.

Feel free to test it with your clients, with your audience.

Because not only is it inviting perfect with prospects, it’s also reducing churn because we’re filtering people out. That’s why it’s got fit, filter, and future. That is key. So we need all three apps for this section to really, really work.

The key mistakes I see with most self identified end of our section that I’ve talked about this earlier as well is that either they’re too vague or they, you know, they just kind of gloss over, stuff. They speak to only one audience.

And this is tricky.

We’ve always learned we we we have the rule of one. Right?

But full transparency, most of our clients, at least most of our clients, I’m speaking for myself here, have more than one audience segment. We have people who have different stages of life. We have people at the different past experiences.

Okay.

Okay. Sorry. I thought I was missing something in the chat. Alright.

Yeah. Exactly. This is not gonna work for you if you don’t do yeah. Exactly. So we don’t wanna be like Abby Singh in the chat.

We don’t want to overlook or gloss over the filter. We wanna be really, really specific there. So and when I say about one audience, take a call, make a decision, like, based on what you know about your, you know, about your client’s audience. What we’ve realized is overlooking certain segments in favor of just one segment isn’t really working out well for us.

So we are speaking, and you will see examples of that in a shade I’ll show it to you. So you may have one big audience. Like, people who are interested in personal development or someone who knows. That’s, like, your one person.

But within that, what have they gone through? What do they value? What are they committed to? All of that.

So you wanna kinda keep that in mind with these sections.

Like I said, I’ve done a self identified training in CSP earlier, and that is good. If you include that, that is great. I would say that is, in fact, probably, you know, like, a lot more than what most sales pages do, but it’s not great. If you really wanna take those conversions up and kind of, you know, go from good to great, which you do because you’re here in CSV, you want to use the three year section.

You wanna focus on the fifth, you wanna focus on the filter, and you also wanna focus on the future. Most this is for you sections only focus on the fifth. That is not something that you want to do. You wanna focus on the filter and the future as well.

What is going on with Canva today? So, one of the key things that you want to test on sales pages is that, your this is for you section should be a conversion driver. That is like, every element on the sales page has a job. Right? We know that. Your this is for you section needs to drive conversions. Putting a CTA below it will help you test it out very, very effectively.

So you may have that this is for you. This is not for you section. You may have some social proof, and then you may have the CTA button, or you may have this section. And then you may just have the CTA enroll now button below it.

Either which ways works, but that’s how you would be able to test out and how I’ve been able to test out the click to, you know, enroll rate as well. So the job this section is gonna do is essentially, again, attract perfect good clients and they’re probably not ideal clients. It reduces refund requests. You’re not getting people in who are gonna be an energy drain and all of that.

So it it does that job really, really well when it’s written well.

Goes without saying this is not a placeholder. I have seen so many sales pages where they have this section, but it is such a placeholder where it’s like, I don’t even know what it’s doing on the page. This is for you if you you’re an entrepreneur, if you’ve got I mean, like, really?

That could be anyone. So just get really, really specific with it and do not treat it like a placeholder.

So like I said, we’re going to go through this is few sections in the wild. I’m gonna show you one section from our time sales page, and then we’re gonna look at two other sections that I’m that I have not written.

But they did have the this is three sections set up. I, you know, put in my swipe file, for various reasons. And, those are going you’re gonna look at those, and then you are going to tell me what are they doing well because this is like a really quick hands on kind of a training.

So this is for a client that I wrote for last year.

This is a program that’s basically a personal development, personal growth program that keeps it’s called journey of the nine moons. It keeps go it it’s a nine month program. It works on this, you know, the moon’s cycles.

It’s a little woo, but the work they do is extremely tangible.

And we have a lot of people in there who are, you know, come from various walks of life, to work through a lot of personal stuff, things like not people pleasing, you know, holding on to grudges, being unable to forgive, all those kind of things. And they work through all of this for a nine month program.

So program is not the right fit. This entire section is the filter section. That goes without saying. You’re in acute crisis.

You need immediate post professional help. This is not for you. You expect someone else to fix you without doing the inner work. You have not ready to take responsibility for your growth and healing.

We’ve had a lot of cases that is that you’re not open to exploring your emotions. You’re comfortable with staying slow. There’s a whole section here. You prefer work change entirely on your own, which is great.

Sometimes that that’s how you are wired, but then this is not clear because it’s a good program, and this section continues below that. And it’s for you if you’re going through a major life transition or you’re at a crossroads in life ready for deep transformation.

You’ve done hair over yourself, but crave a more holistic approach.

Fit.

You wanna find your voice and speak your truth more confidently.

Transformation. Or what do you want happening in the future? You feel disconnected from yourself and yearn to reclaim your authenticity.

Fit.

You’re ready to heal all wounds and release patterns that no longer serve you. What’s happening in the future?

So fairly straightforward.

It was a fairly long section. I’ve included just a part of it, and it had a, CTA button below it.

This was one of the pages that we tested this on, and, yeah, it’s doing really well. They there’s there’s a similar section on another program for the same client that also did really well, which is why now we have these sections on the wait list page along with a few other details. We’ve shortened the wait list page, but this is a section we did decided to keep.

Moved it really up mainly because it’s doing so well.

Okay.

This is a program that Caitlin has launched recently, but it’s on. I think it’s on till today, maybe.

It’s called buyer breakthrough.

This is her she had a Google Doc sales page. I don’t know if some of you have seen it.

I did.

I was I love Caitlin. I’ve got, you know, a bunch of her products about them in the past. They’re all yeah. Yeah.

She’s she’s really good at what she does, and this is something I was considering. I mean, like, it goes with Ally because, like, okay. Yeah. She’s launched something I’m gonna buy.

This is the business for you section that when I read, I realized I’m not the right fit for it.

I want you to go through it and tell me what are your thoughts.

Yep.

Katie?

Well, I wonder if I don’t know about the offer, but I would wonder if she’s only writing to one audience segment because this seems like if I saw this, I would also say it’s not for you, Perna, because it it seems like, you know, somebody who doesn’t yet have a handle on their business, really, or doesn’t already have a group program.

And it seems very pain pointy.

Like, it’s almost the kind of section you’d see higher up on a sales page versus a conversion focus section because there’s not really any transformation.

Sorry. It’s really small on my screen. So yeah.

So not not much future and very, like, mean fit, fit criteria.

To be fair, she does she’s talked about the outcomes on another section that I included here just so you feel this is what happens after you’ve gone through the program. You feel confident in your direction. You carve out time on your business, you stop launching to silence.

This is the the, you know, the transformation, the future, so to speak. Abby?

You’re on mute.

Abby, you’re on mute.

Can you hear me now? Yes. Yes. No. I was gonna say, I first thing, I found out the other day, if you double click when someone’s showing their screen, it goes in full size.

Oh, is it not full size? No.

No. I just speak with Katie. Like, when you’re on Zoom, if you double click it, it gets bigger.

I just found that out and my mind was playing.

No. I was gonna say I I really like this section.

I mean, but maybe it probably because it speaks to me, but I think it’s a smart way to integrate voice of customer, like, quite naturally.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Like, it does quite clearly from the very top. It just shows, like, that she gets her audience.

Like, this stuff, it doesn’t feel like it’s pulled out of thin air. It feels like this is exactly what her audience is going through.

So, yeah, I I quite I think it’s quite it’s quite good.

Yeah. It is a good section. It focuses essentially on fit. And, Katie, you’re absolutely right.

Like, when I read it, I was like, okay. This is not for me, which is the job of this section as well. Right? I mean, either attract perfect fit clients, and I’m not the perfect fit for this, or, you know, repel them, which is what repel is a strong word, but, basically, tell them it’s not for you, which is what it did.

But, yes, it is pinpointy, which isn’t surprising. Caitlin has another product called Painkiller, which focuses on highlighting your audience’s pace, so that is where this is coming from.

Anyone else wanna win. But this is essentially very fit focused.

But because it is so fit focused, it’s going to filter out a lot of people who go like, when I read this, I was like, yep. This is not me.

Because it’s yeah. None of it was I couldn’t go yes to any of them.

And that is the job you want your this is for your section to do.

I don’t else you wanna add?

That’s a good question. Like, I mean, when you’re going with something like that that’s so like, it’s so divisive, like, it kind of encourages people to make a decision whether they’re gonna continue reading emails, which is a good thing.

Like, would you consider at that point, like, putting under, like, the option to opt out, of the launch so that they stay on the newsletter, but then like, would that be One hundred percent.

Integrate that? Yeah. Wonderful.

Yes.

I always say no if I still put them in there, but I feel like that would be a really good place.

Absolutely. Because you are you are encouraging that polarity with this particular section. You are encouraging people to choose a side and say, yes. This is for me and or this is not for me. If they continue to stay, that actually means that, you know, they just need a little more decision making nudges, but and if they choose to opt out, you know, yeah, they were not going to be the right fit in any case.

So she had the outcome split up in a totally different section.

But, yeah, she did have, you know, a okay. This is what is going to happen. And, again, when I read this as well for the future, I was like, yeah. This is like, I already have all of this, so this is obviously not an offer for me. I will just be buying it because it’s her. So, yeah, put that wallet away.

Okay.

This is from Nervous System Mastery. It’s a sales beta that was in my swiped files since last year probably. It’s been Johnny launched it first.

Johnny’s done a I was gonna say close to a million dollars with this program. He does a cohort based, launch.

It’s so he’s it’s basically a program that helps you regulate your nervous system.

He’s got both these sections side by side, very similar to how we have it on our client’s page.

And I feel like that’s, like, a really good way of visually having it because you’re, like, you know, reading left to right and you can go, okay. What’s it? I want you to take a look at this and give me your thoughts on fit, filter, and future.

I think I need this program. I’ve just Googled it.

I’m like, I’m like, my nervous system is so out of whack.

Yeah. I haven’t even sorry. I haven’t even read it. I just wanted to share.

That is, like, a great program.

Jessica.

Okay. I just I don’t know. I guess I’ve been recently feeling like maybe I under and overestimate people, and I guess I’m just wondering who on the who this is for. Would you ever admit that would you say you’re not one of those things?

Like, would you say, oh, yeah. I’m not a curious person. I don’t you know, whatever. And then on, who it’s not for, would you admit to being like, yeah.

I’m just the kind of person who wants a silver bullet. I don’t know. It just feels like if you’re being honest with your I don’t know. It just doesn’t make you look good, so it doesn’t I feel like they cancel each other out, and the whole thing is not very helpful because I wouldn’t sit there admitting that I’m looking for an overnight transformation.

Fix me in twenty four hours or less. You know? I don’t know. It just seems ridiculous.

So I I don’t know. I guess I’m feeling unhelpful. But Abby was sold in, like, three seconds.

So No.

That was just the name. But can I respond to it? Can I respond to Jessica? Is that okay?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

I feel I feel like part of it though with this the way that this person’s done it is it’s more about, like, creating that align with us mentality. So it’s it’s kinda more about sharing, like, Johnny Miller’s values and giving you so you can it’s not just like, oh, this is for you or this isn’t for you. It’s more like, yeah. I I agree with I I can see your values. I can see what you believe.

And, yeah, giving them something to, yeah, to align with, I think. That’s how I’m reading it.

Maybe. You know what? It could also be that I’ve seen so many of these sales pages by now that this feels so typical that I’m like, yeah. There’s nothing interesting really here for me. I don’t think it’s that unique.

Does that make sense?

And I know look. You look at more than I do, but I’m just sitting here going, yes. I’ve seen this section plenty of times. It says the same kinda thing.

Like, Perna, didn’t you say earlier, like, don’t be lazy. You can’t be a lazy person or whoever mentioned that. That feels kind of in line for me with this. Like Yeah. I think we could’ve done better, but you know?

Yep. Anything else?

But I think what this one is doing well is setting expectations for people within the program.

And so, like, I know we are maybe jaded from having seen so many sales pages, but somebody who, like, has just discovered online courses.

I think that this, you know, like, they mentioned cons consistent repetition, being vulnerable, like, exploring uncomfortable sensations, and run experiments, receive feedback. So, like, it gives me a good sense of what is going to be expected of me inside the program, and I have to weigh whether I’m willing to put in I totally agree that, like, yes. Obviously, people want to identify with the who it’s for, and they don’t wanna identify with who it’s not for. But I think that’s kind of the point.

Yeah. It’s like it well, also, it sets out the expectations of the program without it’s, like, directly saying. Because it’s like it’s basically what it’s saying is this isn’t an overnight fix. This isn’t gonna transform you overnight. So if you’re if you’re disappointed because it doesn’t, then that’s on you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So when you say it’s to drive conversion and reduce refund requests, I think this one is doing a good job on both of those fronts.

This one’s doing a good job on the value alignment thing as, I think Ali pointed out as well.

And also what we need to remember is we need to look at it, like Katie said, from the point of view of the audience here. So this is an audience that listens to a lot of Ali Abdaal. This is an audience that listens to you know, they would read Justin Welch newsletters. This is an audience that may even be new to entrepreneurship and this or not even entrepreneurs.

You know? In fact, his sales page would say, you know, they’ve got firefighters. They’ve got CEOs. They’ve got you know, it’s it’s like a they may not they may be actually new to online courses as well.

So, Jessica, that those are the people we’re speaking of. Jessica, question in the chat was, who are these people who you speak okay, Katie. But the there are people, shockingly, who for whom online courses are fairly new. So it does a good job of value alignment.

It it’s not very strong on the future. But then he’s, you know, he’s got a longish sales page there. I feel it could do a much stronger job of talking about what can they expect to see happen.

What does outsized growth like, what does it even mean, basically? So, and yeah. But this is more a this is for you section that’s what we talked about in self hire. This is more like it okay. Aligning you with the values that a course creator has, aligning you with setting expectations and all that, but we are not really doing a strong enough job here of helping them see what transformation is possible for them. I guess it’s probably because, again, in the context, since you don’t have the wholesale space, he does have a lot of social proof there. So maybe that’s why he you know, they felt they could go ahead and do this.

Set it up this way.

That said.

Again, something that when you and most of you would be doing this. When you start to look at look at a sales page and see how people are engaging, it’s interesting to see that a lot of people will scroll faster through social proof sections and stay longer on what are they gonna learn and whether this is for them or this is not for them sections.

So it’s interesting to kind of see whether, you know, that’s a pattern you’re you’re observing in the sales pages that you were analyzing as well, but this is what at least we’ve been seeing is that people are scrolling pastures through social proof sections, which is fascinating to me.

But, yeah, it’s a good sales page, that, it’s a decent intersection. There’s there’s a reason why both these sales pages are in my swipe files, because they do a lot of things well, and there’s always something a bit that you learn.

Alright. Cool. So things to keep in mind.

Please be specific with your bullet points.

The more specific, the better it is. You saw Caitlin’s was really, really specific, so, you know, that kind of makes you go, okay. This is definitely for me. This is definitely not for me.

Place a CTA close to the section that is key.

Both these sales pages that I have as examples did not have a CDA close to the section, which is a pity. But, anyway, Scalise was a Google Doc, so I don’t really know how. I don’t think that she’s really measuring that. She’s only looking at the sales.

You can you can and you should repackage this section as an email and or a social post as well. Works really, really well. Highly recommended. And, yeah, include the section on the wait list. That’s something that we’ve been doing now for clients, so would highly recommend doing that too.

This was a short and sweet training questions about this or anything else for that matter. Jessica?

Okay. So I was hoping maybe and this can be for you, Perna, or the group. Mhmm.

One of the things that I’ve been realizing is that in this section, I think in this section, I would like to make it clear that we are partners, not assistants.

Or I guess it’s I think the issue is is that, there’s kind of this role shift that seems to happen, or maybe I’m not communicating clear enough via my calls or sales pages or anything, the roles, because it feels like there are times with clients for years that it shifts from being, I’m the expert. Let me advise you on this to either I think it kinda goes maybe under two broad categories.

I’m your accountability coach like thing, just making sure you get stuff done, or let I’m your assistant who you feel like you can text, email, whatever with the last second task, and that’s not how we work. And so I guess I’m but it never starts off that way. And Mhmm.

I but I’m wondering if this is a section where I try to make that a bit clearer that if their expectation is is that when you partner with us for your book launch Mhmm.

This is not one of those situations where, I don’t know, you forget that I’m the expert and we created a strategy, and now you’re just gonna start handing me tasks that you think we need to do or, you know, that kind of stuff. Does that make sense?

Mhmm.

So absolutely. I’d love for the group to weigh in as well, on how you would handle something like this, especially since all of us are service providers.

Abby has a a very cool answer in the chat, so there’s that.

That’s it. Okay. I see a couple of things here, Jessica. One, yes, you may wanna put it on your sales page. Will it act as a strong enough filter?

Maybe, maybe not. But and this is something that people do with programs as well and once you do with services as well.

You need to keep reminding the client or the student of your role, and you need to keep reminding them about the boundaries you set. So it’s it’s with some clients, you know, it may not need to do a lot of it, but with some, it’s pretty frequent where you would let them know, okay. Here’s the scope. Here’s what we’re gonna be doing. Here’s when things are expected.

This is out of scope and, you know, that kind of a thing, on not just for onboarding, but also during kickoff at, you know, various milestones.

So there’s that’s one aspect is, yes, you can put it on the page. It would be a good idea to set those expectations.

I would also go ahead and put it in your onboarding kit or if you have series of onboarding emails, and then remind them about it.

You know how we remind clients about the scope, during the kickoff call, and then we again remind them that we have it through the project or that we’re close you know, closing in on, like, the and we’re on the last leg and things like that.

Similarly, you may just want to let people know that this is outside of scope. Or or even things like, as your strategist, I don’t think, you know, that’s a good move. Or as your book launch expert, that’s not something I would recommend, but it’s your book.

So you take the call, that kind of a thing.

Yeah. That’s all good. Now I’m after criticizing that guy’s section, which I still think I’m not completely wrong, but I will swipe his idea, especially on the this is not for you because I’ve that probably is some of the callouts I need to make a bit.

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. And you could get really, really specific there as well because you’ve got, like, actual things you could pull from.

Yeah. Yep. I definitely do. Okay. Yeah. Yep. Thank you.

You’re welcome. Katie?

Okay. Sorry. I had so many questions. I forgot what I wanted to ask now.

Related to the training, I was wondering how you, like I see this I I understand this is probably coming after the offer description, like, the walk through, and then you’d have, I guess, this before frequently asked questions or, like, around that?

Yes. Before. And it’s the same even on hang on. I, in fact, have nervous system mastery open the page. I can just share our screen and show you what the page this is, like, this is Johnny’s page, and you’ll see can you see my screen? Yeah.

Okay. Cool. So who this course is for is you know? So who it’s for? And then for some reason, he’s got deep dive assist pre reading materials, which was interesting for me to see because we’re taking people away from the page. But, anyways and then he’s got the FAQ section. What he did not have here, which, ideally, I would have put would have been a CTA CTA button here.

So yeah.

And it’s below wondering, like, how is this different, or how would you decide if you were gonna have a callout section at the top of your page to let people know, like, who should keep reading, like, more in the if you’re doing, like, a PBS sales page and you’re gonna have a problem based call out section up there, what’s the difference, and how would you choose?

One, the section at the top of the page is generally broader in scope. So you’re speaking to especially if you’re using, like, say, a hero section where it is, you know, for for entrepreneurs, creatives, course creators who are burned out or something like that. You know?

And even the even the pain section is again, we’re talking to a lot of different pains there. We are not the this is for you section, especially from a fit perspective, what we found is getting into the specifics of what have they tried in the past, where are they currently in terms of stage of life, or things like that, or, you know, value alignment.

So that is where you would wanna kind of get really clear. Also, the this is free section is extremely scannable.

So it that is one reason why it’s working well on wait list pages is because wait list pages aren’t too long, but it kind of is easy to scan through. So that’s the other thing.

Okay. And then you mentioned you showed us, like, the page that you wrote. You showed us kind of three, four.

How many like, John Miller had three. How many are you doing usually?

Okay. Hang on. Let me pull that up as well because this was a really long page.

I’ll share this as well.

Okay. Hang on. I’ll share my screen again.

So this is the nine months page. It’s a really long, really long page, but we had quite a few. So this is the financial thing I was talking about. You know? So we had, oh, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.

Okay. Because this this also answers my follow-up question, which was gonna be, do you balance the positive and the negative ones?

So here, it looks, obviously, you did.

Yes.

It kinda worked out that ways.

Even if I were to just have a few fewer options here, that would have been fine, but it just kinda worked out where we had an equal equal number.

Well, thank you.

Awesome.

Any other questions?

Britney, is this oh, Katie, you have another question? Go ahead.

I have an unrelated question, but I’m totally I can be different.

I have a question about post sale emails, Purna. So I was really happy Mhmm. To have your time today.

I’m I’m wondering if you have general guidelines for the the writing and editing of, you know, the post sale emails in terms of how market y they feel.

You know, like, the writing writing the emails that were like, hey. Can we get your feedback? Felt really natural. Writing the reengagement emails felt really natural. But now writing sales emails, I’m I feel reluctant to go full sales y because of the recognition that this is, you know, like they didn’t opt into the sales sequence. The sales sequence is going out based on their behavior, but it wasn’t, you know, something they put their hand up to receive.

So I feel like it shouldn’t necessarily be as full on as, you know, a launch sequence or another form of evergreen sales sequence. So I was wondering just if you have any kind of filters for yourself when you’re writing or or your own take on that.

Yeah. And, again, I would love for Abby, Jessica, Britney to win as well because this is, again, this is what I do.

So there are a couple of different post sales emails that I write for clients.

One is, of course, the newsletters.

So the nature of the sales newsletters, that those are very, very straightforward. Those do offer value, but and content. It could either be something new. It could be something repurposed. It could be a social, like, a story or whatever. But point is they’re getting they’re walking away with something tangible that they can use or be inspired by or just enjoy.

And then we have the the call to action, which is either join the program or book a call or whatever it may be. So there, it’s, like, really, really straightforward, to do.

Then there are clients who have, like, where we have, like, this cyclical, you know, sales sequence, which kind of goes through different in that case, again, my goal is essentially to make sure it could be a pure sales email, Katie. But my goal is always make sure that they walk away with something in terms of not necessarily a tip, but it could be, like I said, it could be something inspiring. Inspiring. It could be something that makes them go, oh, okay. I never thought of it. Like, a mindset shift. It could be but those are, like usually, those are core sales emails where we are selling the offer.

But before we kind of get to the CTA, there’s either, like, late shifting happening or there may be, you know, like, have you tried it this way? That kind of a thing.

So would you so and, forgive me if I’ve told you this before. But, right, guys, I have, like, the three phases. So, they have in the middle phase, they’ve completed, like, certain triggers that have triggered the middle phase. And then in the third phase, they’ve already seen that middle phase emails.

So then in the third phase, I’m going a bit harder. But I’m Mhmm. One like, I I really appreciate the tip about the value when I’m thinking of the four e’s, like, doing the empowering, entertaining, etcetera. Mhmm.

Mhmm. Would you ever do, though, just like a straight perfect for you if email in that context, or does that feel like it’s missing the value that you would wanna be adding?

So in your middle phase, have you done the belief shifting, the objection removal, the trust building? Like, what what’s happening in the middle phase without having that context?

It’s a little hard for me to kind of in the middle phase, essentially, they put their hand up to say, are they curious about it?

And then sorry. Let me I just flick to my table of contents of what I do.

Yes. Definitely objection handling, but I feel, though, like, this is kind of I was mapping it, and then this is where I was getting muddled about what it should be.

So I’ve been moving things around.

Katie, while you’re looking for that, just I would I just wanted to speak to your instinct when you were saying, like, is it too salesy?

And I would say if you’re feeling like you’ve entered that territory, it does trigger sales resistance. And I would go back to conversation. Like like, is the agenda coming forward too hard, and is that why it feels salesy, or are you leading with value? Are we a good fit?

It’s more like diagnostic alignment versus I have this need that I’m pushing on you. So I would say that if you’re feeling like it is too salesy, it it maybe is. And just like as a little side note, I was doing some work with Instantly AI and just kind of going through just sort of their email templates that they have, and they’re just getting so so short and to the point and conversational. And I don’t know.

It’s just people are overwhelmed, and so less and better and more valuable is helpful, I think.

Mhmm. The short email thing is something that we’ve seen working. And I think I’ve spoken about this in the past as well, working way, way better. Yeah. But, again, kinda depends on your audience as well. So there’s there’s that too.

Yeah. So totally agree because that’s one of the things I also wondering when I said full sales y.

It’s like I’m looking at the, you know, the copy school theme plates going this seems like a lot for somebody who already, you know, went through the funnel, bought, has been engaging Oh, gosh.

Yeah.

Around, like One hundred percent.

Much persuasion.

One hundred percent. No.

For and I’m guessing these are, like, remarketing emails to an extent because these are people who’ve already been, you know, invited to the webinar. They or the challenge or whatever it is, and they’ve chosen not to buy.

So No.

This is this is the next level offer. This is like an ascension sequence.

So they’re in the course of the week, bring them up.

And this is the up is this the, like, a Yeah. Okay. It’s an upsell or a cross sell? Upsell.

Okay.

Yeah. Alright.

That kinda changes things. I thought this is for people who are, like, non buyers for core offer.

No. Yeah. Buyers and then bring them into the next level.

Oh, okay. Cool. Alright. That changes things, Katie. So, yeah, that is definitely something I, like, can, I can speak to and, yeah, you all feel free to weigh in as well?

I don’t need context for that then for your middle phase.

So for our clients, when I’m doing either upsells or downsells and, for upsells, what I found works best, they already trust the person. They need to trust themselves. So lots of beliefs set up. And, tying it in with case studies, relevant case studies, not from people who’ve probably taken the same path as them. Is it hard to do that? Sometimes.

But if you can, like, spend time to kind of get gather those stories, it works really, really, really well. So they need to trust themselves. They need to trust the offer. So previews have been working really well for both upsells and downsells.

If it’s a membership, we give them a trial.

If it’s, if it’s a program, we do an exclusive open house where they can attend, like, how get speak to people in, like, a regular open house.

Those have been working really well and also gives them, like, value. So and the third thing that we wanna do with the upsell sequence is help them see how it’s the logical next step.

So speaking to the transformation. So they have trust in themselves, trust in the offer, and then the overall transfer transformation. Like, what’s even possible? Why do they need it? Shouldn’t they be done by now? That kind of a thing, like, addressing that objection.

Also, with business coaching clients, one of the objections that would come up with the upsell is, like, after this, then what? Is this gonna be just, like, one endless cycle? Do you wanna address that to at least for our for, like, my business coaching clients, I found this coming up, a few times, which is why I kind of remember. But, not so much for things like skin like, this natural skin care or even this personal growth thing. They’ve there are people who’ve done the nine months program. They’ve come back as alumni, then they’ve done the other program. And yeah.

So just to make sure addressing their skepticism about is there gonna be another upsell after this?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If especially if it’s business coaching. I found, like, that kind of comes up a lot.

You know? Like Yeah.

Will I ever if this is gonna be unending, that kind of a thing.

Perfect. So just to recap what you said, for the upsell people, coaching self trust, case studies, previews and open houses, why this is the logistical next step, trust in self, offer and the transformation, and then addressing after this, then what?

Yeah. That’s That’s what we’ve yeah. Yeah. That’s what’s been working really well for us. Abby? Thanks.

Yeah. I was just gonna add, I think, one of the challenges is difficult because the last thing you want is to buy a program, be really excited about, like, the results. And then it’s like but if you want really good results, like and then you’re instantly kind of like yeah.

Like, I think, the other thing I would add to, like, Prius List, would be support. Because I think often with the clients, it’s like you buy the course and then the upsell is like, like a mastermind or just something where it’s like the next level of support. So it’s like I think acknowledging, like, you know, if you if you know that it’s what you really want is accountability. Just kind of can hitting on that can be maybe. I mean, I don’t know. It’s just and I just had thought I’m thinking of my own purposes and when an upsells felt good versus, like, what you mean, like, I actually really, you know, I needed this to succeed when I thought that was gonna be enough. Yeah.

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

That does come up quite a bit.

Anyone else got anything to add in for upsells?

No?

Okay.

Cool. Any other questions? Can I help you with anything else?

Yes, Abby?

I have a bad question.

And but because it’s such a small group, I might just go for it because I don’t wanna sound like a douche.

But, what I found and I really don’t wanna articulate this wrong.

But as now that I’m really busy, what I’m and I’ve kind of, I don’t know, built more of a following.

I’m finding, like, more people just coming to me and, like, because we’ve had it, like, a nice conversation once, they kind of think that we’re friends and think that I don’t think they’re gonna have, like, coffee with me or kind of expect, like, things from me.

And I’m kinda like, you know, like, I hope you’re at once. Like, I’m not you know, I don’t know. And I said, I don’t know how to set those boundaries without being a dick, but it’s like it’s happening more and more, and it’s just like I don’t know. I get a bit overwhelmed because when I I I kind of feel like I have to reply to, like, to reply to them, but I don’t wanna I don’t wanna I’m not obviously, I’m not gonna be like, we’re not friends. Like, go away.

But you yeah. Like, how do you set those boundaries in a way that feels, like, nice?

Oh, welcome to my channel. Practice what I’m saying.

No. I I won’t be able to do that. Like, maybe you should, like, script out a few and practice saying them so they’re in your muscle memory. Like, get comfortable playing Yeah. You know?

People pleaser.

That Same.

Like, Jessica said, but I think there’s a trend happening. I actually posted about this thing, Adi, a while ago.

There are people who would send me long messages, long voice messages.

Like, I Voice messages.

It’s like six minute voice messages, and I’m like, oh my god.

Oh, no. Yeah.

Okay. So back in the day, I, like you, would, you know, and would wanna help. And I would be like, okay.

I would respond and things like that. And then I realized that this is not it goes completely against everything that I stand for. It’s something that I personally would never do. I mean, can you I have never ever voice messaged someone I would consider either, you know, someone I would wanna be mentored by or someone even who’s, like, a few steps ahead of me.

You know, I would save up and pay for an hour of their time. I might have done that multiple times. I did that, you know, way back in the day with Laura Belgrade. I did it with you I’ve done it, like, a lot of time.

Then I realized, what am I like, I’m not setting these people up for success.

So I just anytime someone would send me, like, long voice messages, I just started saying, hey. I would love to answer this. Here’s where you can go ahead and book some time with me.

Yeah. But what if they come to you and it’s just because freelancers are suffering right now.

Like, it is a a bad time for a lot.

And they’re going to and they’re like really emotional, and that’s what gets me. Because it’s like, I don’t want it’s it’s hard to then say, yeah. Here’s enough of my time when they’re saying, like Yeah. When they’re getting emotional.

You you need to get really, really good at setting boundaries. Britney brought up and, you know, yeah, you can be compassionate also. Understand it’s not your response. You are not their therapist.

You are not their parent. You are not their best friend.

They need to win. They can they need to find someone else. You are you are not even their coach. I mean, like, unless, of course, you’re their coach, which is a different because they’re they’re paying you, and you can see exactly.

So if you you did not sign up for this role, you need to set that boundary and you need and will it be uncomfortable? Yes. Will it do you need to do it? One hundred percent.

There is there is no way that you can, you know, like yeah. And all let me also tell you something.

You can go ahead and be thoughtful and kind and considerate and respond to them and give them all the attention and time and everything that they need, and they will still be where they are right now, which is yeah. So I am speaking from personal experience. Something I it’s I feel very, very strongly about this.

So I have a little tip too that has helped me identify where a boundary needs to go, and it’s, do I feel resentment?

And if I feel resentment, that’s my trigger that my boundaries in the wrong place and I’m back.

Yep. One hundred percent. And this is, again, like Britney said, I am a recovering people pleaser. I have, like yeah. I have a lot of issues that I work to in therapy, but point is it it’s hard, but you gotta do it, Abby.

There are a number for I’m not sure.

Before Jessica chimes in, I just wanna acknowledge Jessica has given me lots of good advice on this before. I just thought I’d ask you prior now because well, because it’s just a small room, and I feel like you’re all completely laid.

Yeah. Yeah. I did. You. No. I’m glad you did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m glad you did.

Totally get it. I feel very strongly about this. It’s something I dealt with so much, and I’m just yeah. And I’m totally over it.

No. No. You’re not setting them up for success. You’re not setting yourself up for success.

Yeah.

Jessica, lay in.

No. She’s kidding.

I was like, I feel like I’m about to jump out of my skin.

She knew this was coming, though.

Now you’re making me reconsider the book topic, Abby. Like, I now think maybe I should freaking write a book called power moves. The mistakes that women make to take away from their own power. Like, I’ve just I don’t know. I gotta figure the the subtitle, but I was thinking because as you’re talking and all those things that everybody else said, I totally agree with you now. But, again, it’s like, do you wanna be a million dollar business?

Are you going to sell that in a few years? Is that still the goal? Great.

No per perception is such a it’s the thing. And if you’re available for these chats, you are not building up the perception. You’re not sending the message of a million dollar, multimillion dollar business owner that someone should come in and invest and buy because they can just hop on a quick chat with you. And I don’t know. It’s just it’s a power move.

You would not expect I don’t expect it with Perna.

I don’t expect it with Joe. I don’t expect it with anyone who I look at as, quote, unquote, successful, whatever that word means. I would never expect to be able to get their time the way you give away your time. It’s a power move.

Yeah. Yeah. Completely completely completely agree. Also, what I’ve realized is that and, and that’s true for pretty much, I think, everyone in the room.

With a lot of these people, I will also find that they will not take the time to be on our email list, read our social post. I support that. Yeah. Or forget engaging, even reading.

Or, like, in our case, the blog. Like, the blog has so much in it. Like, if they were just to go there and read that, like, things like, where do you find clients? How do you do this?

How do you you know, how do how much do you charge? Like, I’m not even going to there was a time when I would go to the trouble of, like, literally looking up the post and send sending them that, and I realized, what have I been doing about them? Because it came from a sense of, oh, you know, like, I wanna pay it forward and I wanna be but then I realized, I actually paid for the time I got.

What am I actually paying forward? I’m already paying it forward by putting out spending hours writing blog posts and emails.

That is pang it cool.

You give you’re so generous with your advice. Like, so generous.

Well, thank you so much. But, yeah, apparently, people do not Google. So or even, like, go use the search feature on the books. Anyways, point is, Abby, stop doing it.

You are not being you are not being anything. You’re just being a smart business owner, so just stop doing it.

Yeah. Yeah. Done. Done.

Awesome.

Thank you. Well, okay. All of you love hearing from me on this. Yes. I it’s I can get very, very, very spicy about this, but this is let’s wrap it up, but I have so many stories.

Oh my god. I’ll just read you the comments. Everyone loves you.

Awesome. Thank you so much, everybody. This was fun.

Any other questions?

Nope. All good? Okay. Cool. I will see you in Slack.

Chat soon. Bye.