Tag: pipeline
Power-Packed Positioning
Power-Packed Positioning
Transcript
Alright. Let’s see. I have my training all lined up.
I wonder if the time change threw people off.
Ah, yeah. That’s this is actually because my calendars aren’t synced with the No. I have a I have trouble with, tying in my the CSP calendar on my iPhone.
Oh, so Yeah.
I can if I have to go into Google Calendars to see it. So sometimes I miss CSP events.
Oh, that’s unfortunate. Oh, I did not I don’t know why that happens. It should sync across calendars.
So, okay, Nicole’s here as well. We’re about three minutes in. Hello.
We’re just waiting to see if a couple more people join in our usuals. I think Abby is there usually, and, Jessica’s there as well. So we’ll just wait another minute or so. Otherwise, I was telling Carolyn she can have the privilege of a personal training.
Love that.
Alright. Let’s see. Yeah. So we’re at eight. Yeah. We’re, like, four minutes past. I think we can go ahead and start.
And if anyone wants to join in, then, yay, they can. Catch up.
Cool. Alright.
I’m gonna share screen, and we are going to talk about amplifying positioning.
So here’s the thing.
Positioning is key to our businesses. We all know it, and you all just had a great session apparently with Kira. I know I haven’t had a chance to watch the replay, but I’m sure it would have been great. So my goal here is to just kind of build on that and help you amplify your positioning. So here’s what we’re gonna be talking about, creating your own definition of positioning, the worksheets you have.
I would love for you to actually fill it out and share it with me in Slack talking about how are you gonna go ahead and amplify a positioning because it’s so, so important, especially as, you know, everything feels noisier and more crowded. So I would love for you to go ahead, create your own definition of positioning, understand why amplification is necessary. It’s not just enough to say, oh, this is what I wanna be known for.
What comes after is so so much more important. And then, of course, we look at three key strategies for I have examples of how you can actually use them for, like, just kind of holding yourself accountable in terms of what would you do next month, what would you do in the next week, what would you do on an ongoing basis. And then, of course, like I said, create your short term and long term application plan. So the examples would help you do that. Okay. We’ve had Jessica joining in as well. Hey, Jessica.
We are just getting started with amplifying your positioning.
So positioning is all about like I said, it’s getting noisier. So this is what helps you create a distinct space in your prospect’s mind, especially to distinguish yourself from others who may be in the same space. We may all be writing copy for pretty much all same kind of businesses. We may all be work SaaS copywriters, then how is a company supposed to choose you over others? Or if, like me, you write for creative entrepreneurs and course creators, coaches, and consultants, then how do you stand out?
Amplify your positioning is what helps you do that. It helps you not just develop, but also magnify and intensify your positioning. So when you amplify your positioning, you amplify your reach, you amplify your reach, you amplify your impact, when you amplify your impact, you amplify your income. It’s what I have seen over the last more than a decade of building this business is that anytime I wanted to be known for something, once I get clear on that, which is what all of you would have or have already been working on. Once you get clear on what you’ve been wanna known for, then it’s your job to just amplify it.
Speaking from personal experience because we started as oh, so I started as a mom blogger. Our business then started as a social media management company, and then I you know, we pivoted into copywriting and launch strategy and sales strategy. So every time, whether it was I was when when I was starting as a mom blogger or we started the business or we, you know, pivoted into copywriting, every time. Once I got clear on my positioning, I made it my job to be really, really well known for it, and that is what has helped us to build this business to this level.
So super important. I’m gonna, like, quickly touch after this on the mistakes that most people make with their positioning that I see a lot of service providers make, and it really breaks my heart. But most importantly, what I if there is one thing that you take away from this session, it is that your positioning is tied to everything that you do to market your business.
It is not a separate entity. It is not something that, oh, my you know, it’s my brand identity. Yes. That’s part of your positioning.
Your positioning is a part of how you show up to market your business.
With that, what are the mistakes you wanna avoid?
First up, thinking that your positioning is just talking about your positioning is just limited to your website copy. So you’ve got, like, a great tagline. You’ve got great about page.
Yeah. Or thinking that only your logo or brand identity make up your positioning, it’s a part of that. The the photos you use, the colors you have, all of that is a part of your positioning.
It’s not the only thing.
And then finally, inconsistency and confusion with your message and authority. If you wanna be well known for something, you have to be super clear about what that is, and you need to be consistent in sharing it.
Quick note on consistency. Consistency does not mean does not mean perfection. Consistency is not the same as perfecting it.
You may show up consistently, and it may not be it may still be raw. You know? The way you show up may still not be very edited. You may have videos that could be more polished. Sure.
And that will happen, and that shouldn’t let you stop you from being consistent when it comes to sharing what you wanna be known for.
So don’t please don’t let a, you know, a desire for perfection hold you back.
I have I why am I so passionate about it? Because I’ve done that. I wanted everything to be perfect before I, you know, started talking about it. And I realized that the only person who’s actually getting impacted by that is is me, and that’s not in a good way because I’m just holding myself back from sharing what I know, sharing what I wanna be known for, sharing, you know, what sharing our positioning, waiting for it to be perfect.
So, yeah, be very clear and be very consistent, but don’t let perfection hold you back from amplifying your position.
So what’s part of your positioning then?
A lot. Your story. And not just your origin story, but also your growth story is part of your positioning.
I share our story so often with some of you who may have you know, like, people who followed us for years, you may feel like, oh, I’ve heard this one before.
Sure. But you will always have people who have no idea about how you got started or how you’ve grown or why you do what you do. So your story is a part of your positioning, and you should share it often. Your process is a part of your positioning, one hundred percent. If you have proprietary processes that you use in your business or to get your clients the results that they they get, that is part of your positioning. Be known for it.
Your background, your brand identity, of course, is a part of your positioning. Your thought leadership, you know, like yours those high points of view, your authority content you share, your packages, your products, your offers, they’re all part of your positioning, your specializations, your skills, your strategic partnerships, the people you decide to network with, collaborate with, you will be known, again, by what you offer, who you connect with, because you will be talking about what sets you apart. You will be talking about what makes you you in all of these places, in all of these ways.
So all of this is part of your positioning.
Make no mistake.
Not talking about this is going to be a you know, I hesitate to say this, but I probably need to because when you overlook talking about things like your your process or your packages or your background or your story, you’re actually putting yourself at a disadvantage.
And you’re probably blending in way more than, you know you’re blending in with everybody else who may be doing the same thing.
So if you wanna stand out, you need to start owning who you are, what you do, how you do it, who you work for, who you connect with, collaborate with as a part of your positioning. And, yeah, I’m going to be seeing positioning a lot in this, but that’s, like, pretty much the the creating.
So yeah.
Okay.
Let’s talk about amplifying, yeah, your positioning.
So first things, you wanna amplify your authority. Like, super, super important.
Get comfortable with amplifying your authority.
I like to call these value shots. You can call them whatever you want to, but point is you wanna start amplifying your authority by using digestible pieces of content that create a standard position for you. Some of you may already be doing this. You know, the podcast that you’re pitching or the podcast that you’ve started or the blog post that you’ve written or the guides or the guest post or the talks. The point is you need to start thinking about how can you give your audience tools and techniques that share your expertise, but in many cases, also prepare them to work with you.
Think about these value shots as what does your audience need to know or do or believe before they’re ready to work with you. So I’ll give you an example because so I write a lot about, you know, oh, you need to like, for instance, offer optimization is a big part of my process. Right? I would often talk about what makes for a good offer. I would often talk about, you know, what you need to sell an offer, what mistakes people are making with their offers.
Why? Because I need people to be ready with a good offer before they come to work with us.
I need people to have the foundation of a great offer in place so I can then optimize it. I’m not in the business of creating the offer from scratch. It does not help me if they come to me with an offer that’s missing crucial pieces because then we waste a lot of time, and then then they they’re not even gonna get the results that I can, you know, help them get. So I make it my job to help them have those foundational pieces in place.
So the for you, you share these these value shots, like, call them because they’re an easy way for you to build a stronger connection with your audience and a great way for you to build expertise and authority as well.
So how can you establish yourself as a distinct, unignorable voice in your niche?
Share spiky points of view.
If you disagree with something, if you have, like, a contrarian thought that goes against your industry, think out loud.
If you have an inspiring backstory like I was telling you, like, tell it to everyone everywhere.
If you’ve tested strategies out, The whole nurtured for newsletter nurtured for sales newsletter thing, like, was something that I tested out with clients.
I’ve since gone on to talk about it on podcast. I’ve, you know, have pitched events to talk about it.
I have, like, people booking us out for them months in advance.
So it’s not like newsletter is nothing new, but the fact that you can use it to also sell makes it that much, you know, more attractive to my audience. Once I tested it out with a couple of clients, I knew I was onto something, and that meant I’m going to talk about it everywhere in as many ways as possible.
So what I would love for you to do is think about how are you gonna amplify your authority over the next month. Is it sometimes it can feel like, look. Oh, you know, if I say next week, you may not feel right enough, but I would love for you, whether you, you know, the three of you here or, you know, if you’re watching the recording, think about it. Like, think about how are you gonna amplify your authority over the next month and share it with me in Slack.
You know? Are you gonna pitch a talk? Are you gonna write a guide style post? Are you gonna share those safety points of view on social? Are you gonna reach out to a podcast that you’ve been wanting to be on?
Just pick one thing. It’s you know, and start that.
What are you gonna share? How are you gonna do that? And where are you gonna share it?
Okay. This one is, again, something that I personally had to get very comfortable with because of several reasons. One, introvert. Two, have been raised.
Eldest daughter was raised to not, you know, talk a lot about what and, you know, not come across as feeling, like being braggy or arrogant. I was always an overachiever.
So, you know, it was yeah. Anyways, I had a lot of work to do around this, but amplify your awesome publicly and oh, sharing your results. Know that when you’re running a business, you need to do it. It’s just part of just owning who you are.
It’s part of your positioning. It’s a business decision. And the best way to be known for what you do is to share when you do it and share it twice when you do it well. So which is why I talk a lot about the kind of projects I’m working on.
I talk a lot about the results our clients are getting. I it’s taken me a while to get really comfortable with it.
There are people who are naturally comfortable with it, and I think that’s amazing. But if you’re not, know that it’s okay to take baby steps towards it. But please get used to talk amplifying. You’re awesome. Talk about your process. Let clients see how you differentiate yourself from everybody else.
And here’s the thing. It is so much easier for clients to make a decision when they see the kind of, you know, work you do. It is so much easier for them to see you as an expert when they can see others like them who trusted you, worked with you, had a great experience with you.
I include testimonials and proposals, in-depth testimonials with photos. I include social proof even when I’m working with a client.
I make it a point to talk about the kind of like, share a similar client experience or a case study.
So or, you you know, other credible markers. Like, instance, if I’m, you know, on a podcast that I know a client would enjoy, I will send it to them.
Or an event that I’m speaking at, I will let them know about it. I’d ask them if they’d like to attend. So point is think about, again, this whole session, I want you to start thinking about how are you going to amplify all of this positioning that you’re working so hard on.
And for this one, I wanted to you to think about what how can you amplify your awesome in the next week? So what results, social proof, credibility markers, accomplishments can you share in the next week? Where will you share them, and how will you share them? So, again, gently accountable to this. I would love for you to share with me in Slack.
I’ll share tag me, like, let me know. Okay. Perna, I’m gonna be sharing a video testimonial, an endorsement from a mentor, a podcast appearance, any video to me is processed up over there next week or any one of the above. I’ll I’ll share these on Instagram and LinkedIn.
The testimonial could be a reel. The mentor endorsement will go on LinkedIn. The podcast will go on both. This is an example, but you get the drift.
So get comfortable.
I would love for you to do this. I would love for you to when you share it, tag me so I can, like, publicly cheer you on as well.
We need to get super, super comfortable with amplifying our awesome. I feel like so many of us hesitate in doing so because we don’t wanna feel like we’re bragging or we don’t wanna, you know, take up too much space. Whatever be the reason, we need to think of this as a business decision and just move forward with it.
Next up, amplifying your presence.
Show up more often.
Easier said than done, but, trust me, you can do it.
Pick your platforms and show up. Similar to amplifying your awesome, amplifying your presence is often linked to like, we tend to worry a lot. Like, at least I’ve and for all of these things, I’m speaking from personal experience because I’ve, like, literally been there. And, again, you may not be feeling this way, which is great for you.
I think that’s amazing. But if you are, know that you’re not the only one. You it’s natural to be like, oh, but how? How do I do this?
Or what if I get rejected?
What if no one shows up?
Very valid fears.
But a fear of showing up is nothing but an inner gremlin urging you to keep playing small, insisting that you stay hidden.
That is what, at least, I realized. And, you we have Kirsty who does mindset, so she would be able to speak more of this. But once I realized that this is just you know, it’s I can easily flip this. I can easily reframe it. This is just, like I said, an inner gremlin holding me back, and I’m not gonna let that happen.
Because what if I get rejected? But what if someone says yes?
What if no one shows up? But what if someone does? So it’s really easy to do that, but it’s super important again, in this case, for you to pick your platforms and pick and then show up there consistently because that makes you comfortable. Consistency does has this other great advantage.
The more you show up on a particular platform, whether that’s a stage or a or a social platform or going on podcast or writing blog posts.
The more you do something, the more comfortable you get. The more comfortable you get, the more confident you are. The more confident you are, the more impact, the greater results. You know? So it’s just it’s kind of a ripple effect, and the best part, it doesn’t even take a ton of time.
So, again, feel feel feel less when you’re standing out. Like, reframing it would really, really help. So this is more of an ongoing thing. You will always come up against like, for instance, when I decided I wanted to start speaking on stages, my greatest fear was like, what if I mess up?
But then what if I don’t? What if I nail it out of you know, crush it? And for me to do that, what do I need to make it happen? How can I make it happen?
So think about where you may be playing small when it comes to positioning.
Be honest with yourself.
What stories are you telling yourself about your authority, your credibility, you know, your results? Whatever it is that you feel like, oh, it’s not quote, unquote, good enough.
Are those stories true? Are they a fact?
If yes, then how can we change that stories? Because stories are just that. They’re stories. They can be changed.
And if not, then how can you reframe them? How can you move past that?
It’s this is more of a mental step when it comes to amplifying your positioning, but trust me, it’s sounds cliche, but it’s a game changer. Once you start doing this, it becomes so much easier for you to make those big asks that help you amplify your positioning and be known for who you are. Like, if you wanna be unafraid, you wanna feel confident, you wanna feel brave making those big asks, you need to start by addressing what’s going on inside when it comes to showing up in a big way.
So really spend some time thinking, well, this is this is like an ongoing step.
And if any of you are in this place where you feel that you’re playing small when it comes to your positioning, feel free to, again, like I said, tag me in Slack.
And we can chat about it there.
But this is a huge, huge step for you to start showing up in a big way on those big stages and be absolutely unafraid when it comes to owning who you are and what you wanna be known for.
Your positioning at the end of the day is your point of difference. I absolutely love it when clients tell me why they, you know, wanna work with me because every single time, it comes down to my positioning, and it shows me that it’s working.
So people may rip off your packages. They may copy your content, your updates. It’s happened with us many, many times over. It will continue to happen. Honestly, unless, of course, it’s like a word by word copy and someone’s, like, plagiarizing a copy. I’m, like, not gonna send a cease and desist for someone I see is copying a package that we’ve created or is writing an update that’s similar to ours. I mean, that’s not a worthwhile use of my time or our team’s time.
But because of what I know is they cannot copy as our unique positioning.
And our positioning, again, it’s not permanent. Right? It will evolve.
Your positioning will set you apart. And if you continue to amplify it, people will recognize you instead of recognizing your competition. It just works works that way. We have so many people telling emailing us, telling us, oh, you know, I saw so and so, you know, using your branding, like, you know, the food and coffee branding.
Did you know that? Yes. I do. Does it bother me? No. I mean, I don’t own the food and coffee, you know, connection.
A lot of people can make that connection, but I love it that they people think of us when it comes to food and coffee coming together. So that’s just a very small example, but there are so many other cases. Point is your positioning is your point of difference. Once you start amplifying it, it becomes that much easier for you to be recognized and known for a particular point of view, for known for a particular expertise, known for a particular skill set.
So go forth and follow positioning.
Alright.
Time for q and a for the position related questions or copy reviews.
Hi, Heather.
I have a position oh, hello.
Yeah. I have a position question. Can you hear me okay? Sorry. I’m in the car.
Sure. No.
No. Can you hear me?
We can.
Go ahead. So this is kind of it feels like a silly question, but it’s actually a real question.
I mean, obviously, we need to do the work of defining our positioning.
But do you ever find that, do people have success with hiring or partnering with the hype person?
Reason I ask is I hate promoting myself. I’m really, really terrible at it, but I’m really great at promoting other people.
And because I think it’s hard to sell yourself, sometimes.
And so I was just curious if you’ve ever seen people, like, I don’t know. You know, maybe they’re a little bit timid about being, amplifying their own positioning. Their position assuming their positioning is clear, but maybe they have trouble amplifying their own and maybe they have their assistant, like, you know, write their authority. I don’t know. Like Yes. Under someone.
Yeah. Okay.
Absolutely.
So many people, like, way back in the day, when we were starting out, like, I would’ve we when we were starting out, we did not have a budget to hire. But point is, like, if we had the budget to hire, I would have wanted to speak to at least, if not, hire full time, like, speak to someone who was, like, quote, unquote, positioning, amplification, or high person, like you said. You know? I would, I can and there that is exactly why so many people do also work with ghostwriters when it comes to their social content or when it comes to their, you know, their blog posts and all of those. So, yes, I think, that is definitely an an option.
An option.
Okay. Cool.
Thank you.
You’re welcome. Any other questions?
Ask you okay.
Yeah. Can I pose, I’m I’m struggling a bit with the positioning?
So, basically, I it’s been a huge evolution since CSP started in November. I think you probably heard in some call me discuss the seasonal sale holiday sale opportunity.
And I I think that, of course, is still a pretty blue ocean all that. However, what I’ve really come to realize is is that there’s there’s it seems to be a difference between what people are looking for, which for me is email strategy, email copywriting, executing, even management, that kind of thing. And then the like, for example, I was on a call two days ago, and it was with a audit client.
And they, we were just kinda talking about a lot of things. But, basically, it was like, oh, you could do our whole seasonal Father’s Day for them is a really big one, and they haven’t planned it yet. And they were like, oh, you could, like, do the entire campaign? And I said yes. And she goes, well, this it was just a bad time for the clients in terms of their seasonality, so their this is their low. So she was kinda trying to figure out budget and what we could move forward with since I delivered the audit.
And while she wanted to move forward with email as well and the retainer style and everything Joe’s teaching, it she has to be careful with her budget. And so I just kind of what I’ve what I kind of am struggling with is while the blue ocean seems to be there with seasonal and holiday sales and being able to be that person, I so much of what I wanna also deliver is email marketing, and that’s what people are coming to me for.
And, ultimately, I’d like to create an email marketing agency. And, of course, seasonal sales can be a part of that for sure.
Mhmm. There could also be a campaign package with that. But what I’m struggling with is people don’t seem to be seeking out a seasonal sale strategist, an expert on that.
They are definitely coming to me through email. So I’m struggling even on a basic level with, okay, my homepage.
How should I position myself on my homepage? What should I prioritize? I initially did change it to all real focused on seasonal and holiday sales. But it’s it something isn’t work isn’t feeling right, and it’s keeping. And that is the block for me with moving forward with doing all the work of authority building and all that because I’m just sitting there going, but what should I leave with, and do how should I bring in the other one?
And you know what I mean? Is this making sense, or am I just rambling?
No. No. It is.
It is making sense. And it this, okay. So, yeah, I completely agree that, you know, seasonal sales is a huge flow, an opportunity. Like, for for me and the course creator market, the newsletters and the flash sale sequences, all those are really great, but those are not the ones that I lead with because I know that’s, you know, something that our clients, they when they see the opportunity, they go, yeah. Okay. That makes total sense.
But that’s not who they’re looking for.
They’re looking for either a launch copywriter or an evergreen funnel copywriter. How do I position myself over there? So I focus on ROI. I talk about ROI focus. I may change that to something else later, but every conversation I have with a a client and the process that I walked them through shows them the ROI of every step. Like, even the research phase, what’s the return on investment for them?
Why would they like, because for a lot of clients, they’re like, oh, but that’s onboarding. You would you know, that’s your your thing.
No. It’s not. You know? It gives you clarity on who you should be talking to, how you should be talking, but we already know that. Okay. But then why aren’t your launches converting? We’re obviously missing something.
And Mhmm. Then I walk them through what my report messaging recommendations report looks like, etcetera, etcetera. Anyways, point is there may be a case for you to position yourself as an email marketing strategist who specializes in or an email marketing copywriter or an, you know, whatever you wanna call yourself who specializes in uncovering hidden sales or businesses.
Seasonal sales can be a part of that. But, also, a win back sequence could be a part of it. You know, welcome sequence could be a part of it. So point is maybe you need to use your seasonal sales as, of course, an authority builder.
You, you know, you definitely wanna start talking about it because not enough people are talking about it.
But you may also wanna think about, is there a way for you to look at how you approach businesses as a whole, how you approach email marketing as a whole and kind of lead with that instead.
Not to confuse any further, but I feel like if you’re seeing that people aren’t really looking for a seasonal sales strategist, maybe a case for broadening it. It could just be that you’re not talking about it often enough. You know? So it could that could totally be the case that, you know, you’re not showing up on stages often enough and, you know, just drilling home the point that, you know, seasonal sales are a huge missed opportunity for most businesses.
Yeah.
So you need to kinda look at both the things and make a decision there. Like, have you been giving it your hundred percent as far as yes. As far as your positioning goes, or have you been, you know, like, half heartedly, kind of saying, yes. I do this, but then also talking about a million other things. Because a lot, you know, a lot of this is about being really brutally honest with this brutally honest with yourself.
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Mhmm.
Sorry about that.
That’s a really valid point.
I have a question, Jessica. Have you considered positioning yourself as the email strategist who turns discounted customers into full paying customers?
Well yeah. So broadening out to that, because that was where seasonal and holiday kind of led me was just this idea of, either how do you turn people who came into your, you know, your ecosystem via a fifty percent off Black Friday deal? How do you turn them into someone who will come back and buy it full price?
That’s definitely an angle which then I, you know, I think you and I spoke about the, the ditch the discount. So I I am leaning in with that. I think that’s just, it’s easy to for me, I just there’s a disconnect with it. I wish I I just need, like, a I don’t know if I need, like, some sort of chart to make it clear to me, but I’m always sitting there going, okay. I can have Ditch the Discount as a newsletter and a podcast and make and I can go into all sorts of things related to the phrase ditch the discount. You know? Mhmm.
But when it comes to my, okay. So, like, what’s in the hero section of my home page? And then what what is that messaging hierarchy?
That has always been a struggle for me when I don’t have one clear, like, this is how I wanna someone to find me and then start investigating me and then to start potentially working you know, like, the whole customer journey, that for me has been very difficult to figure out what that looks like.
And and, yeah, I’m doing this because I’m imagining, like, a a a upside down pyramid or something. You know?
Visual.
So, yeah, that’s what I’m kinda struggling with.
See, I feel like answer your question, Caroline. Sorry. Go ahead. No. No. I feel like, saying that you can turn you can help turn discount customers, for lack of a better word, price, to full paying customers and increase the lifetime value.
I was yeah.
That messaging would really resonate. And then as a part of that, as Perna mentioned, you could you could highlight seasonal sales as one aspect of it, but there’s so many ways that people come in discounted. I mean, you go to a website and they give you a pop up, sign up, and get ten percent off. I mean, or I see something on Instagram and it’s sale for whatever, temporary sale may not be seasonal, but, you know, for a week, there’s a discount, so then I might sign up.
But I may never shop there again.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
I feel like that’s it feels like it would be a problem, a big enough problem. I feel I suspect that retailers are thinking about this.
I don’t know. It just to me, it seems like it would resonate if you were to just talk about returning discounted customers into full paying ones and increasing lifetime value of that.
So if you so if you were putting on it, like, so, obviously, I’ve been focusing a lot on ecommerce, and not that that couldn’t change.
But my point is if you were a business owner, let’s say, ecommerce, and you saw that I was, like, the person who was focused on turning discount buyers into, you know, full price customers or loyal customer or whatever you wanna say. If you saw that, I guess my question is, would you expect that what my primary solution for you would be, like, to go with CSP and what Joe’s teaching in the intensive, a standardized project that is an email program audit. Would that connect for you? Because that, to me, I I’m, like, not seeing that as the, oh, here’s the solution matched with the problem.
I think you would have to front that you tackle this problem via email.
Okay. That you know, and just talk about how impactful email can be to create loyal to create a loyal customer base and how you’re leaving money on the table if you’re not implementing correctly.
Yeah. Got it. Okay. No. I see. Thank you.
I would also add to that is, like, yes, definitely make a connection with email. But I almost feel like there’s a case here for you to consider.
Would would positioning yourself as the ecom email copywriter who helps businesses or companies increase customer lifetime value be, you know, a clearer value prop for them because that’s something they understand.
And how you help them do that is then through through seasonal sales.
My only disconnect and, again, this is not to, again, confuse any further. My only disconnect here is if you’re talking about ditching the discount and then you’re selling them on seasonal sales, are you saying you would not be telling them to discount their products then?
No. So, yeah, so what we did discuss this, Joe and I, in another call, and it was like, ditch the discount doesn’t necessarily mean never discount. It just means ditch your reliance on the discount as your primary way of selling your products.
Okay. And then how does seasonal sales fit in?
Well, so and then and then well, one, that’s my question is, does it?
That that’s kind of been that’s the, like, funny part about CSP is it was like, yes, seasonal sales. But then as I dove into it more, it was like, oh, there this reliance on discounting all the time is really a problem and the philosophy. But so I mean, in so this client that I was talking to, yes, their, Black Friday and all of that, the holidays are a huge time for them. And so, of course, like everybody, they lean on discounting at that time, and it’s almost weird if you don’t.
Right? However, it’s a very male, audience, and so Father’s Day for them is a huge seasonal sale. However, it is not. They don’t have to lead with a discount.
They lead with more of bundling and that kind of stuff with maybe free shipping or something Yeah. That they don’t have discount.
Okay.
So does that answer?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does. I just feel and, Jessica, you need to do a lot more, educating your audience.
Like, then the amplifying your party part needs to be one that you need to go all in on because like us and, you know, and we are people like, again, your audio your customers are gonna have the same questions. And then that’s your job to clear up those questions in as many ways as possible, in as many places as possible. And then I think so, yeah, the positioning’s great. It’s just that you need to think about, okay, how am I going to start talking more often about it?
Okay.
Okay.
I think I’m just gonna have to get over the fact that people my website is always an evolution anyway, and I’m not for perfection on it. And I know that, like, now I mean, it’s always been Yeah. Sometimes, and I’m not great. But I just think where I’m, like, every time I feel like I wanna iterate on it or change it up, I’m sitting there just going, what?
Well, like I said, where should I start at the top? I don’t Oh. Yeah.
So think about yeah.
Start at the top. Like, literally, start at the top. Think about it like, okay. Someone comes to your website. What’s the first thing you want them to know? So, hey. You’re on this page because you want more sales and you want more sales without having to lean on discounts all the time.
And I’m the email copywriter who’ll show you how to do that.
So maybe just start there. Like, keep it simple. But point is, will will this require more, you know, more education?
Absolutely.
Okay.
Do you see that as a problem, or is that just it’s that’s always.
Because it sometimes seems that when I look at no?
Okay. No. It’s not a problem. Okay. I’ll I’ll have like, for instance, in our case.
Right? So everyone’s the launch copywriter. Everyone’s like, oh, yeah. I can you know?
I started differentiating myself by talking about the fact that I’m not an order taker. I would wanna look at why do you need a sales page. Maybe you don’t need a sales page. Maybe you need something else.
Right? Mhmm. And now now there are a lot of copywriters who talk about it, a lot of them who’ve been through ready to sell, who, you know, have made proper optimization a part of their process. Being the strategist is part of the rest.
That’s the whole goal there.
But when I started talking about, you know, looking at all your courses before I write for the course you’re hiring me for, clients didn’t know why. Like, the other copywriters I’ve worked with would either just write the sales page they hired them to write or would write the email sequence. Literally, every testimonial I had from everyone, from Pat Quinn to, like, the, you know, crafters that I wrote for, the gardeners or everyone talked about the fact that they loved that I would go deep into their business.
Was it it wasn’t something that they even knew they needed.
But once they got it, it was like, oh my gosh. This is amazing.
So it’s not a problem. It’s just something that and you like I said, like, you will need to really, really talk about it every opportunity you get. So yeah. It will it is it hotter?
Maybe.
But then is it better?
Generally, when things are hard, it’s, you know, it’s great to do them because that means the rest of the competition is not doing it.
So Yeah. At least that’s how I would approach it. Yeah.
No. Thank you. That I I you just gave me a a extremely valuable coaching session. I can’t believe I just got that. Thank you so much.
And thank you so much.
You are the same thing. Awesome. Cool. Great. Any other questions? Any copy review requests? Nope.
All good.
I wish I did.
I’m not preparing any copy.
That’s okay. Don’t worry about it. Don’t worry about it. Cool. Alright. I would honestly, like, for at least Nicole, I know you’re you’re part of CSP, but I’m part of Copy Hacker’s team.
But, again, for the three of you, if you like, I would love to hear how you’re gonna be applying your positioning over the next week and the next month. Seriously, like, tag me in in Slack. Let me know. I feel like all of you need to be shining brighter, when it comes to different status.
So yeah.
Thank you so much, Perna.
You’re welcome. Thanks so much. See you all in Stockton. Thanks. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
Alright. Let’s see. I have my training all lined up.
I wonder if the time change threw people off.
Ah, yeah. That’s this is actually because my calendars aren’t synced with the No. I have a I have trouble with, tying in my the CSP calendar on my iPhone.
Oh, so Yeah.
I can if I have to go into Google Calendars to see it. So sometimes I miss CSP events.
Oh, that’s unfortunate. Oh, I did not I don’t know why that happens. It should sync across calendars.
So, okay, Nicole’s here as well. We’re about three minutes in. Hello.
We’re just waiting to see if a couple more people join in our usuals. I think Abby is there usually, and, Jessica’s there as well. So we’ll just wait another minute or so. Otherwise, I was telling Carolyn she can have the privilege of a personal training.
Love that.
Alright. Let’s see. Yeah. So we’re at eight. Yeah. We’re, like, four minutes past. I think we can go ahead and start.
And if anyone wants to join in, then, yay, they can. Catch up.
Cool. Alright.
I’m gonna share screen, and we are going to talk about amplifying positioning.
So here’s the thing.
Positioning is key to our businesses. We all know it, and you all just had a great session apparently with Kira. I know I haven’t had a chance to watch the replay, but I’m sure it would have been great. So my goal here is to just kind of build on that and help you amplify your positioning. So here’s what we’re gonna be talking about, creating your own definition of positioning, the worksheets you have.
I would love for you to actually fill it out and share it with me in Slack talking about how are you gonna go ahead and amplify a positioning because it’s so, so important, especially as, you know, everything feels noisier and more crowded. So I would love for you to go ahead, create your own definition of positioning, understand why amplification is necessary. It’s not just enough to say, oh, this is what I wanna be known for.
What comes after is so so much more important. And then, of course, we look at three key strategies for I have examples of how you can actually use them for, like, just kind of holding yourself accountable in terms of what would you do next month, what would you do in the next week, what would you do on an ongoing basis. And then, of course, like I said, create your short term and long term application plan. So the examples would help you do that. Okay. We’ve had Jessica joining in as well. Hey, Jessica.
We are just getting started with amplifying your positioning.
So positioning is all about like I said, it’s getting noisier. So this is what helps you create a distinct space in your prospect’s mind, especially to distinguish yourself from others who may be in the same space. We may all be writing copy for pretty much all same kind of businesses. We may all be work SaaS copywriters, then how is a company supposed to choose you over others? Or if, like me, you write for creative entrepreneurs and course creators, coaches, and consultants, then how do you stand out?
Amplify your positioning is what helps you do that. It helps you not just develop, but also magnify and intensify your positioning. So when you amplify your positioning, you amplify your reach, you amplify your reach, you amplify your impact, when you amplify your impact, you amplify your income. It’s what I have seen over the last more than a decade of building this business is that anytime I wanted to be known for something, once I get clear on that, which is what all of you would have or have already been working on. Once you get clear on what you’ve been wanna known for, then it’s your job to just amplify it.
Speaking from personal experience because we started as oh, so I started as a mom blogger. Our business then started as a social media management company, and then I you know, we pivoted into copywriting and launch strategy and sales strategy. So every time, whether it was I was when when I was starting as a mom blogger or we started the business or we, you know, pivoted into copywriting, every time. Once I got clear on my positioning, I made it my job to be really, really well known for it, and that is what has helped us to build this business to this level.
So super important. I’m gonna, like, quickly touch after this on the mistakes that most people make with their positioning that I see a lot of service providers make, and it really breaks my heart. But most importantly, what I if there is one thing that you take away from this session, it is that your positioning is tied to everything that you do to market your business.
It is not a separate entity. It is not something that, oh, my you know, it’s my brand identity. Yes. That’s part of your positioning.
Your positioning is a part of how you show up to market your business.
With that, what are the mistakes you wanna avoid?
First up, thinking that your positioning is just talking about your positioning is just limited to your website copy. So you’ve got, like, a great tagline. You’ve got great about page.
Yeah. Or thinking that only your logo or brand identity make up your positioning, it’s a part of that. The the photos you use, the colors you have, all of that is a part of your positioning.
It’s not the only thing.
And then finally, inconsistency and confusion with your message and authority. If you wanna be well known for something, you have to be super clear about what that is, and you need to be consistent in sharing it.
Quick note on consistency. Consistency does not mean does not mean perfection. Consistency is not the same as perfecting it.
You may show up consistently, and it may not be it may still be raw. You know? The way you show up may still not be very edited. You may have videos that could be more polished. Sure.
And that will happen, and that shouldn’t let you stop you from being consistent when it comes to sharing what you wanna be known for.
So don’t please don’t let a, you know, a desire for perfection hold you back.
I have I why am I so passionate about it? Because I’ve done that. I wanted everything to be perfect before I, you know, started talking about it. And I realized that the only person who’s actually getting impacted by that is is me, and that’s not in a good way because I’m just holding myself back from sharing what I know, sharing what I wanna be known for, sharing, you know, what sharing our positioning, waiting for it to be perfect.
So, yeah, be very clear and be very consistent, but don’t let perfection hold you back from amplifying your position.
So what’s part of your positioning then?
A lot. Your story. And not just your origin story, but also your growth story is part of your positioning.
I share our story so often with some of you who may have you know, like, people who followed us for years, you may feel like, oh, I’ve heard this one before.
Sure. But you will always have people who have no idea about how you got started or how you’ve grown or why you do what you do. So your story is a part of your positioning, and you should share it often. Your process is a part of your positioning, one hundred percent. If you have proprietary processes that you use in your business or to get your clients the results that they they get, that is part of your positioning. Be known for it.
Your background, your brand identity, of course, is a part of your positioning. Your thought leadership, you know, like yours those high points of view, your authority content you share, your packages, your products, your offers, they’re all part of your positioning, your specializations, your skills, your strategic partnerships, the people you decide to network with, collaborate with, you will be known, again, by what you offer, who you connect with, because you will be talking about what sets you apart. You will be talking about what makes you you in all of these places, in all of these ways.
So all of this is part of your positioning.
Make no mistake.
Not talking about this is going to be a you know, I hesitate to say this, but I probably need to because when you overlook talking about things like your your process or your packages or your background or your story, you’re actually putting yourself at a disadvantage.
And you’re probably blending in way more than, you know you’re blending in with everybody else who may be doing the same thing.
So if you wanna stand out, you need to start owning who you are, what you do, how you do it, who you work for, who you connect with, collaborate with as a part of your positioning. And, yeah, I’m going to be seeing positioning a lot in this, but that’s, like, pretty much the the creating.
So yeah.
Okay.
Let’s talk about amplifying, yeah, your positioning.
So first things, you wanna amplify your authority. Like, super, super important.
Get comfortable with amplifying your authority.
I like to call these value shots. You can call them whatever you want to, but point is you wanna start amplifying your authority by using digestible pieces of content that create a standard position for you. Some of you may already be doing this. You know, the podcast that you’re pitching or the podcast that you’ve started or the blog post that you’ve written or the guides or the guest post or the talks. The point is you need to start thinking about how can you give your audience tools and techniques that share your expertise, but in many cases, also prepare them to work with you.
Think about these value shots as what does your audience need to know or do or believe before they’re ready to work with you. So I’ll give you an example because so I write a lot about, you know, oh, you need to like, for instance, offer optimization is a big part of my process. Right? I would often talk about what makes for a good offer. I would often talk about, you know, what you need to sell an offer, what mistakes people are making with their offers.
Why? Because I need people to be ready with a good offer before they come to work with us.
I need people to have the foundation of a great offer in place so I can then optimize it. I’m not in the business of creating the offer from scratch. It does not help me if they come to me with an offer that’s missing crucial pieces because then we waste a lot of time, and then then they they’re not even gonna get the results that I can, you know, help them get. So I make it my job to help them have those foundational pieces in place.
So the for you, you share these these value shots, like, call them because they’re an easy way for you to build a stronger connection with your audience and a great way for you to build expertise and authority as well.
So how can you establish yourself as a distinct, unignorable voice in your niche?
Share spiky points of view.
If you disagree with something, if you have, like, a contrarian thought that goes against your industry, think out loud.
If you have an inspiring backstory like I was telling you, like, tell it to everyone everywhere.
If you’ve tested strategies out, The whole nurtured for newsletter nurtured for sales newsletter thing, like, was something that I tested out with clients.
I’ve since gone on to talk about it on podcast. I’ve, you know, have pitched events to talk about it.
I have, like, people booking us out for them months in advance.
So it’s not like newsletter is nothing new, but the fact that you can use it to also sell makes it that much, you know, more attractive to my audience. Once I tested it out with a couple of clients, I knew I was onto something, and that meant I’m going to talk about it everywhere in as many ways as possible.
So what I would love for you to do is think about how are you gonna amplify your authority over the next month. Is it sometimes it can feel like, look. Oh, you know, if I say next week, you may not feel right enough, but I would love for you, whether you, you know, the three of you here or, you know, if you’re watching the recording, think about it. Like, think about how are you gonna amplify your authority over the next month and share it with me in Slack.
You know? Are you gonna pitch a talk? Are you gonna write a guide style post? Are you gonna share those safety points of view on social? Are you gonna reach out to a podcast that you’ve been wanting to be on?
Just pick one thing. It’s you know, and start that.
What are you gonna share? How are you gonna do that? And where are you gonna share it?
Okay. This one is, again, something that I personally had to get very comfortable with because of several reasons. One, introvert. Two, have been raised.
Eldest daughter was raised to not, you know, talk a lot about what and, you know, not come across as feeling, like being braggy or arrogant. I was always an overachiever.
So, you know, it was yeah. Anyways, I had a lot of work to do around this, but amplify your awesome publicly and oh, sharing your results. Know that when you’re running a business, you need to do it. It’s just part of just owning who you are.
It’s part of your positioning. It’s a business decision. And the best way to be known for what you do is to share when you do it and share it twice when you do it well. So which is why I talk a lot about the kind of projects I’m working on.
I talk a lot about the results our clients are getting. I it’s taken me a while to get really comfortable with it.
There are people who are naturally comfortable with it, and I think that’s amazing. But if you’re not, know that it’s okay to take baby steps towards it. But please get used to talk amplifying. You’re awesome. Talk about your process. Let clients see how you differentiate yourself from everybody else.
And here’s the thing. It is so much easier for clients to make a decision when they see the kind of, you know, work you do. It is so much easier for them to see you as an expert when they can see others like them who trusted you, worked with you, had a great experience with you.
I include testimonials and proposals, in-depth testimonials with photos. I include social proof even when I’m working with a client.
I make it a point to talk about the kind of like, share a similar client experience or a case study.
So or, you you know, other credible markers. Like, instance, if I’m, you know, on a podcast that I know a client would enjoy, I will send it to them.
Or an event that I’m speaking at, I will let them know about it. I’d ask them if they’d like to attend. So point is think about, again, this whole session, I want you to start thinking about how are you going to amplify all of this positioning that you’re working so hard on.
And for this one, I wanted to you to think about what how can you amplify your awesome in the next week? So what results, social proof, credibility markers, accomplishments can you share in the next week? Where will you share them, and how will you share them? So, again, gently accountable to this. I would love for you to share with me in Slack.
I’ll share tag me, like, let me know. Okay. Perna, I’m gonna be sharing a video testimonial, an endorsement from a mentor, a podcast appearance, any video to me is processed up over there next week or any one of the above. I’ll I’ll share these on Instagram and LinkedIn.
The testimonial could be a reel. The mentor endorsement will go on LinkedIn. The podcast will go on both. This is an example, but you get the drift.
So get comfortable.
I would love for you to do this. I would love for you to when you share it, tag me so I can, like, publicly cheer you on as well.
We need to get super, super comfortable with amplifying our awesome. I feel like so many of us hesitate in doing so because we don’t wanna feel like we’re bragging or we don’t wanna, you know, take up too much space. Whatever be the reason, we need to think of this as a business decision and just move forward with it.
Next up, amplifying your presence.
Show up more often.
Easier said than done, but, trust me, you can do it.
Pick your platforms and show up. Similar to amplifying your awesome, amplifying your presence is often linked to like, we tend to worry a lot. Like, at least I’ve and for all of these things, I’m speaking from personal experience because I’ve, like, literally been there. And, again, you may not be feeling this way, which is great for you.
I think that’s amazing. But if you are, know that you’re not the only one. You it’s natural to be like, oh, but how? How do I do this?
Or what if I get rejected?
What if no one shows up?
Very valid fears.
But a fear of showing up is nothing but an inner gremlin urging you to keep playing small, insisting that you stay hidden.
That is what, at least, I realized. And, you we have Kirsty who does mindset, so she would be able to speak more of this. But once I realized that this is just you know, it’s I can easily flip this. I can easily reframe it. This is just, like I said, an inner gremlin holding me back, and I’m not gonna let that happen.
Because what if I get rejected? But what if someone says yes?
What if no one shows up? But what if someone does? So it’s really easy to do that, but it’s super important again, in this case, for you to pick your platforms and pick and then show up there consistently because that makes you comfortable. Consistency does has this other great advantage.
The more you show up on a particular platform, whether that’s a stage or a or a social platform or going on podcast or writing blog posts.
The more you do something, the more comfortable you get. The more comfortable you get, the more confident you are. The more confident you are, the more impact, the greater results. You know? So it’s just it’s kind of a ripple effect, and the best part, it doesn’t even take a ton of time.
So, again, feel feel feel less when you’re standing out. Like, reframing it would really, really help. So this is more of an ongoing thing. You will always come up against like, for instance, when I decided I wanted to start speaking on stages, my greatest fear was like, what if I mess up?
But then what if I don’t? What if I nail it out of you know, crush it? And for me to do that, what do I need to make it happen? How can I make it happen?
So think about where you may be playing small when it comes to positioning.
Be honest with yourself.
What stories are you telling yourself about your authority, your credibility, you know, your results? Whatever it is that you feel like, oh, it’s not quote, unquote, good enough.
Are those stories true? Are they a fact?
If yes, then how can we change that stories? Because stories are just that. They’re stories. They can be changed.
And if not, then how can you reframe them? How can you move past that?
It’s this is more of a mental step when it comes to amplifying your positioning, but trust me, it’s sounds cliche, but it’s a game changer. Once you start doing this, it becomes so much easier for you to make those big asks that help you amplify your positioning and be known for who you are. Like, if you wanna be unafraid, you wanna feel confident, you wanna feel brave making those big asks, you need to start by addressing what’s going on inside when it comes to showing up in a big way.
So really spend some time thinking, well, this is this is like an ongoing step.
And if any of you are in this place where you feel that you’re playing small when it comes to your positioning, feel free to, again, like I said, tag me in Slack.
And we can chat about it there.
But this is a huge, huge step for you to start showing up in a big way on those big stages and be absolutely unafraid when it comes to owning who you are and what you wanna be known for.
Your positioning at the end of the day is your point of difference. I absolutely love it when clients tell me why they, you know, wanna work with me because every single time, it comes down to my positioning, and it shows me that it’s working.
So people may rip off your packages. They may copy your content, your updates. It’s happened with us many, many times over. It will continue to happen. Honestly, unless, of course, it’s like a word by word copy and someone’s, like, plagiarizing a copy. I’m, like, not gonna send a cease and desist for someone I see is copying a package that we’ve created or is writing an update that’s similar to ours. I mean, that’s not a worthwhile use of my time or our team’s time.
But because of what I know is they cannot copy as our unique positioning.
And our positioning, again, it’s not permanent. Right? It will evolve.
Your positioning will set you apart. And if you continue to amplify it, people will recognize you instead of recognizing your competition. It just works works that way. We have so many people telling emailing us, telling us, oh, you know, I saw so and so, you know, using your branding, like, you know, the food and coffee branding.
Did you know that? Yes. I do. Does it bother me? No. I mean, I don’t own the food and coffee, you know, connection.
A lot of people can make that connection, but I love it that they people think of us when it comes to food and coffee coming together. So that’s just a very small example, but there are so many other cases. Point is your positioning is your point of difference. Once you start amplifying it, it becomes that much easier for you to be recognized and known for a particular point of view, for known for a particular expertise, known for a particular skill set.
So go forth and follow positioning.
Alright.
Time for q and a for the position related questions or copy reviews.
Hi, Heather.
I have a position oh, hello.
Yeah. I have a position question. Can you hear me okay? Sorry. I’m in the car.
Sure. No.
No. Can you hear me?
We can.
Go ahead. So this is kind of it feels like a silly question, but it’s actually a real question.
I mean, obviously, we need to do the work of defining our positioning.
But do you ever find that, do people have success with hiring or partnering with the hype person?
Reason I ask is I hate promoting myself. I’m really, really terrible at it, but I’m really great at promoting other people.
And because I think it’s hard to sell yourself, sometimes.
And so I was just curious if you’ve ever seen people, like, I don’t know. You know, maybe they’re a little bit timid about being, amplifying their own positioning. Their position assuming their positioning is clear, but maybe they have trouble amplifying their own and maybe they have their assistant, like, you know, write their authority. I don’t know. Like Yes. Under someone.
Yeah. Okay.
Absolutely.
So many people, like, way back in the day, when we were starting out, like, I would’ve we when we were starting out, we did not have a budget to hire. But point is, like, if we had the budget to hire, I would have wanted to speak to at least, if not, hire full time, like, speak to someone who was, like, quote, unquote, positioning, amplification, or high person, like you said. You know? I would, I can and there that is exactly why so many people do also work with ghostwriters when it comes to their social content or when it comes to their, you know, their blog posts and all of those. So, yes, I think, that is definitely an an option.
An option.
Okay. Cool.
Thank you.
You’re welcome. Any other questions?
Ask you okay.
Yeah. Can I pose, I’m I’m struggling a bit with the positioning?
So, basically, I it’s been a huge evolution since CSP started in November. I think you probably heard in some call me discuss the seasonal sale holiday sale opportunity.
And I I think that, of course, is still a pretty blue ocean all that. However, what I’ve really come to realize is is that there’s there’s it seems to be a difference between what people are looking for, which for me is email strategy, email copywriting, executing, even management, that kind of thing. And then the like, for example, I was on a call two days ago, and it was with a audit client.
And they, we were just kinda talking about a lot of things. But, basically, it was like, oh, you could do our whole seasonal Father’s Day for them is a really big one, and they haven’t planned it yet. And they were like, oh, you could, like, do the entire campaign? And I said yes. And she goes, well, this it was just a bad time for the clients in terms of their seasonality, so their this is their low. So she was kinda trying to figure out budget and what we could move forward with since I delivered the audit.
And while she wanted to move forward with email as well and the retainer style and everything Joe’s teaching, it she has to be careful with her budget. And so I just kind of what I’ve what I kind of am struggling with is while the blue ocean seems to be there with seasonal and holiday sales and being able to be that person, I so much of what I wanna also deliver is email marketing, and that’s what people are coming to me for.
And, ultimately, I’d like to create an email marketing agency. And, of course, seasonal sales can be a part of that for sure.
Mhmm. There could also be a campaign package with that. But what I’m struggling with is people don’t seem to be seeking out a seasonal sale strategist, an expert on that.
They are definitely coming to me through email. So I’m struggling even on a basic level with, okay, my homepage.
How should I position myself on my homepage? What should I prioritize? I initially did change it to all real focused on seasonal and holiday sales. But it’s it something isn’t work isn’t feeling right, and it’s keeping. And that is the block for me with moving forward with doing all the work of authority building and all that because I’m just sitting there going, but what should I leave with, and do how should I bring in the other one?
And you know what I mean? Is this making sense, or am I just rambling?
No. No. It is.
It is making sense. And it this, okay. So, yeah, I completely agree that, you know, seasonal sales is a huge flow, an opportunity. Like, for for me and the course creator market, the newsletters and the flash sale sequences, all those are really great, but those are not the ones that I lead with because I know that’s, you know, something that our clients, they when they see the opportunity, they go, yeah. Okay. That makes total sense.
But that’s not who they’re looking for.
They’re looking for either a launch copywriter or an evergreen funnel copywriter. How do I position myself over there? So I focus on ROI. I talk about ROI focus. I may change that to something else later, but every conversation I have with a a client and the process that I walked them through shows them the ROI of every step. Like, even the research phase, what’s the return on investment for them?
Why would they like, because for a lot of clients, they’re like, oh, but that’s onboarding. You would you know, that’s your your thing.
No. It’s not. You know? It gives you clarity on who you should be talking to, how you should be talking, but we already know that. Okay. But then why aren’t your launches converting? We’re obviously missing something.
And Mhmm. Then I walk them through what my report messaging recommendations report looks like, etcetera, etcetera. Anyways, point is there may be a case for you to position yourself as an email marketing strategist who specializes in or an email marketing copywriter or an, you know, whatever you wanna call yourself who specializes in uncovering hidden sales or businesses.
Seasonal sales can be a part of that. But, also, a win back sequence could be a part of it. You know, welcome sequence could be a part of it. So point is maybe you need to use your seasonal sales as, of course, an authority builder.
You, you know, you definitely wanna start talking about it because not enough people are talking about it.
But you may also wanna think about, is there a way for you to look at how you approach businesses as a whole, how you approach email marketing as a whole and kind of lead with that instead.
Not to confuse any further, but I feel like if you’re seeing that people aren’t really looking for a seasonal sales strategist, maybe a case for broadening it. It could just be that you’re not talking about it often enough. You know? So it could that could totally be the case that, you know, you’re not showing up on stages often enough and, you know, just drilling home the point that, you know, seasonal sales are a huge missed opportunity for most businesses.
Yeah.
So you need to kinda look at both the things and make a decision there. Like, have you been giving it your hundred percent as far as yes. As far as your positioning goes, or have you been, you know, like, half heartedly, kind of saying, yes. I do this, but then also talking about a million other things. Because a lot, you know, a lot of this is about being really brutally honest with this brutally honest with yourself.
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Mhmm.
Sorry about that.
That’s a really valid point.
I have a question, Jessica. Have you considered positioning yourself as the email strategist who turns discounted customers into full paying customers?
Well yeah. So broadening out to that, because that was where seasonal and holiday kind of led me was just this idea of, either how do you turn people who came into your, you know, your ecosystem via a fifty percent off Black Friday deal? How do you turn them into someone who will come back and buy it full price?
That’s definitely an angle which then I, you know, I think you and I spoke about the, the ditch the discount. So I I am leaning in with that. I think that’s just, it’s easy to for me, I just there’s a disconnect with it. I wish I I just need, like, a I don’t know if I need, like, some sort of chart to make it clear to me, but I’m always sitting there going, okay. I can have Ditch the Discount as a newsletter and a podcast and make and I can go into all sorts of things related to the phrase ditch the discount. You know? Mhmm.
But when it comes to my, okay. So, like, what’s in the hero section of my home page? And then what what is that messaging hierarchy?
That has always been a struggle for me when I don’t have one clear, like, this is how I wanna someone to find me and then start investigating me and then to start potentially working you know, like, the whole customer journey, that for me has been very difficult to figure out what that looks like.
And and, yeah, I’m doing this because I’m imagining, like, a a a upside down pyramid or something. You know?
Visual.
So, yeah, that’s what I’m kinda struggling with.
See, I feel like answer your question, Caroline. Sorry. Go ahead. No. No. I feel like, saying that you can turn you can help turn discount customers, for lack of a better word, price, to full paying customers and increase the lifetime value.
I was yeah.
That messaging would really resonate. And then as a part of that, as Perna mentioned, you could you could highlight seasonal sales as one aspect of it, but there’s so many ways that people come in discounted. I mean, you go to a website and they give you a pop up, sign up, and get ten percent off. I mean, or I see something on Instagram and it’s sale for whatever, temporary sale may not be seasonal, but, you know, for a week, there’s a discount, so then I might sign up.
But I may never shop there again.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
I feel like that’s it feels like it would be a problem, a big enough problem. I feel I suspect that retailers are thinking about this.
I don’t know. It just to me, it seems like it would resonate if you were to just talk about returning discounted customers into full paying ones and increasing lifetime value of that.
So if you so if you were putting on it, like, so, obviously, I’ve been focusing a lot on ecommerce, and not that that couldn’t change.
But my point is if you were a business owner, let’s say, ecommerce, and you saw that I was, like, the person who was focused on turning discount buyers into, you know, full price customers or loyal customer or whatever you wanna say. If you saw that, I guess my question is, would you expect that what my primary solution for you would be, like, to go with CSP and what Joe’s teaching in the intensive, a standardized project that is an email program audit. Would that connect for you? Because that, to me, I I’m, like, not seeing that as the, oh, here’s the solution matched with the problem.
I think you would have to front that you tackle this problem via email.
Okay. That you know, and just talk about how impactful email can be to create loyal to create a loyal customer base and how you’re leaving money on the table if you’re not implementing correctly.
Yeah. Got it. Okay. No. I see. Thank you.
I would also add to that is, like, yes, definitely make a connection with email. But I almost feel like there’s a case here for you to consider.
Would would positioning yourself as the ecom email copywriter who helps businesses or companies increase customer lifetime value be, you know, a clearer value prop for them because that’s something they understand.
And how you help them do that is then through through seasonal sales.
My only disconnect and, again, this is not to, again, confuse any further. My only disconnect here is if you’re talking about ditching the discount and then you’re selling them on seasonal sales, are you saying you would not be telling them to discount their products then?
No. So, yeah, so what we did discuss this, Joe and I, in another call, and it was like, ditch the discount doesn’t necessarily mean never discount. It just means ditch your reliance on the discount as your primary way of selling your products.
Okay. And then how does seasonal sales fit in?
Well, so and then and then well, one, that’s my question is, does it?
That that’s kind of been that’s the, like, funny part about CSP is it was like, yes, seasonal sales. But then as I dove into it more, it was like, oh, there this reliance on discounting all the time is really a problem and the philosophy. But so I mean, in so this client that I was talking to, yes, their, Black Friday and all of that, the holidays are a huge time for them. And so, of course, like everybody, they lean on discounting at that time, and it’s almost weird if you don’t.
Right? However, it’s a very male, audience, and so Father’s Day for them is a huge seasonal sale. However, it is not. They don’t have to lead with a discount.
They lead with more of bundling and that kind of stuff with maybe free shipping or something Yeah. That they don’t have discount.
Okay.
So does that answer?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does. I just feel and, Jessica, you need to do a lot more, educating your audience.
Like, then the amplifying your party part needs to be one that you need to go all in on because like us and, you know, and we are people like, again, your audio your customers are gonna have the same questions. And then that’s your job to clear up those questions in as many ways as possible, in as many places as possible. And then I think so, yeah, the positioning’s great. It’s just that you need to think about, okay, how am I going to start talking more often about it?
Okay.
Okay.
I think I’m just gonna have to get over the fact that people my website is always an evolution anyway, and I’m not for perfection on it. And I know that, like, now I mean, it’s always been Yeah. Sometimes, and I’m not great. But I just think where I’m, like, every time I feel like I wanna iterate on it or change it up, I’m sitting there just going, what?
Well, like I said, where should I start at the top? I don’t Oh. Yeah.
So think about yeah.
Start at the top. Like, literally, start at the top. Think about it like, okay. Someone comes to your website. What’s the first thing you want them to know? So, hey. You’re on this page because you want more sales and you want more sales without having to lean on discounts all the time.
And I’m the email copywriter who’ll show you how to do that.
So maybe just start there. Like, keep it simple. But point is, will will this require more, you know, more education?
Absolutely.
Okay.
Do you see that as a problem, or is that just it’s that’s always.
Because it sometimes seems that when I look at no?
Okay. No. It’s not a problem. Okay. I’ll I’ll have like, for instance, in our case.
Right? So everyone’s the launch copywriter. Everyone’s like, oh, yeah. I can you know?
I started differentiating myself by talking about the fact that I’m not an order taker. I would wanna look at why do you need a sales page. Maybe you don’t need a sales page. Maybe you need something else.
Right? Mhmm. And now now there are a lot of copywriters who talk about it, a lot of them who’ve been through ready to sell, who, you know, have made proper optimization a part of their process. Being the strategist is part of the rest.
That’s the whole goal there.
But when I started talking about, you know, looking at all your courses before I write for the course you’re hiring me for, clients didn’t know why. Like, the other copywriters I’ve worked with would either just write the sales page they hired them to write or would write the email sequence. Literally, every testimonial I had from everyone, from Pat Quinn to, like, the, you know, crafters that I wrote for, the gardeners or everyone talked about the fact that they loved that I would go deep into their business.
Was it it wasn’t something that they even knew they needed.
But once they got it, it was like, oh my gosh. This is amazing.
So it’s not a problem. It’s just something that and you like I said, like, you will need to really, really talk about it every opportunity you get. So yeah. It will it is it hotter?
Maybe.
But then is it better?
Generally, when things are hard, it’s, you know, it’s great to do them because that means the rest of the competition is not doing it.
So Yeah. At least that’s how I would approach it. Yeah.
No. Thank you. That I I you just gave me a a extremely valuable coaching session. I can’t believe I just got that. Thank you so much.
And thank you so much.
You are the same thing. Awesome. Cool. Great. Any other questions? Any copy review requests? Nope.
All good.
I wish I did.
I’m not preparing any copy.
That’s okay. Don’t worry about it. Don’t worry about it. Cool. Alright. I would honestly, like, for at least Nicole, I know you’re you’re part of CSP, but I’m part of Copy Hacker’s team.
But, again, for the three of you, if you like, I would love to hear how you’re gonna be applying your positioning over the next week and the next month. Seriously, like, tag me in in Slack. Let me know. I feel like all of you need to be shining brighter, when it comes to different status.
So yeah.
Thank you so much, Perna.
You’re welcome. Thanks so much. See you all in Stockton. Thanks. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.
The 3-Tiered Copy Referral System
The 3-Tiered Copy Referral System
Transcript
Alright. Everyone seeing that okay?
Beautiful.
Alright. So one thing I’m noticing is I always, like, title these things with, with, like, a super direct response headline, and then I realize I have to say it out loud in a really casual way later. And it’s just, like, really awkward. So I almost don’t wanna read, like, the title of this.
I’ll just, like, let that be on the screen for three seconds and let y’all read it so I don’t have to speak copy of that. There we go. A dead simple automated referral network to secure decades worth of well paid cut projects without awkward ass or fake as fuck friendships. There we go.
I said it about that. I got it on myself.
Cool. So this is all about my referral system.
Yeah. I don’t know. I think I’ve taught this more pieces of this, like, once or twice in various bonuses and various trainings, but the beaniest part or the meatiest part is the one that I’ve always kind of, like, went a little bit too quickly. Like, it’s also been, like, stuffed within a bigger training. So I really want to take the opportunity to, like, really give this one the time and the process to have it implemented because it’s, by far, been, like, my most impactful, client acquisition system over almost a decade. So, yeah, we’re gonna formalize it, process it, processize it, and make it real, and it’s real if it’s on a worksheet. So there we go.
Fun fact one.
Eighty five percent, I’d say, more than eighty five percent of the clients I’ve served over the last decade were referral based, and the other fifteen percent was a combo of guest presenting and masterminds.
So, yeah, this is also in a very specific order. So guest presenting and masterminds, another awesome source, live events, great source, and podcast, social posting, all that stuff, a distant third. So eighty five percent from referrals. Then of that remaining fifteen percent, I’d say, like, most of that was live events and guest guest presenting in courses and masterminds.
Fun fact two, never run ads, cool DM, or dance on TikTok.
Nothing wrong with any of these. Not hating on any of these. I’d do them if I could. I’d dance if I could, but I can’t.
And when you’re almost forty, you just kind of accept that, like, I’m not meant to go through this lifetime with dance moves. And, yeah, you make up for it in other ways. So, yeah, Joe could attest to this. I was at her wedding.
I I was awful on the dance floor. The worst. I avoided the dance floor at all costs until I had no choice. So fun fact to you.
Fun fact three. I’m an awkward Canadian who forgets to call my own family members on their birthday. I’ve been characterized as misanthropic, but I’m really not. I don’t think I am.
And all this to say that I’m so far from perfect in cultivating and maintaining business relationships. Like, this isn’t an area I consider myself to be a ten on ten at.
Yeah. It’s weird for me, and I do it imperfectly.
And, yeah, I just want that to be known. Like, to implement these strategies, you don’t have to be, like, the most social, human y person in the world.
And there’s so much margin or imperfection in all that. And fun fact four, I’ve systematized all of this after the fact. Meaning, while I was using it, it was all by accident and highly successful without ever formalizing it or turning it into a process. Meaning, if you turn this into a process and use some of the steps I’ll give you in this training, you’ll probably crush it and, like, blow my results with it out of the water.
So that’s my hope is that, yeah, you take what I did accidentally, formalize it, make it real, make it a process, make it a task you can actually do, and, yeah, beat my results on it. So without further ado, the three tiered automatic referral network. So tier one is your current or your past clients. So what makes you referable?
We could have, like, a sixty minute discussion just on this.
Typically, when clients have referred me, I’d ask them, like, what made you think of me? Right? Like, what made you refer me? Like, what made you feel comfortable referring me?
Like, that’s the one question I would always ask after I said thank you for the referral, of course. But, yeah, why did you refer me? Right? And that gives you so much juicy information about what they value about you and how it gets communicated to others.
So this has been what I’ve received back, in no particular order on this one at least. So performance, obviously, you gotta be getting results. They’re not not gonna refer you to their close network and their friends if you just can’t do what you say you’re gonna do, and it’s not working. So performance, that matters.
Probably above all else, communications, clear expectations.
The bar for this is still so low, and I think it’ll remain low forever because it’s been low forever.
But just be a decent communicator. Set clear expectations.
Like, the number one headache clients and project managers in particular have had is, like, I just don’t know if this is getting done. I don’t know if it’s being worked on. I don’t I can’t trust on the reliability of this freelancer to get the work done. So communication, clear expectations, vital, massive, huge, and makes you highly referable because they know you’re not gonna cause drama, stress, and energetic tax on the people they refer you out to, which is what they’re afraid that they’ll be responsible for in referring you out. Right? If you are an absolute nightmare, a mess, refusing, totally inflexible about everything, they feel like that comes back on them. So it’s like almost reverse engineer what makes you not referable and optimize against that.
So low drama, low stress, low energetic cost. Typically, the feedback I’ve had in response to the question of what made you refer me is you were so easy and simple to work with. Right? So take that for what it’s worth.
How can you be low drama, low energy cost, while, of course, still maintaining your boundaries and your scopes and pushing back where you have to. So, there we have it. And, finally, like, they know you’re open to taking more clients. So this is, like, an obvious one.
Right? It’s like, I’ve had clients want to refer me, but they simply just, like, said, oh, I didn’t know you were still taking clients. Right? Like, they just assumed I was fully booked up.
They just assumed that, like especially if you position yourself, I think, like, Joe had, like, the diva list way back in the day and a wait list. Right? Especially if you have a wait list and they had to wait to get on your calendar, they’re just gonna see my book full. Right?
So it’s just yeah. Like, they can refer you if they think that you’re not open for more business. So just making sure they know that.
That’s really the five aspects for tier one.
In most cases, when it comes to being referred by current or past clients, to be honest, I never even had to ask to be referred. It just kinda happened organically when the opportunity presented for them, and those five things were present.
And this is also how I preferred out freelancers that I’ve hired in the past. It was like, this person was awesome. They were easy to work with. Oh, opportunity here. Let me refer them. So a lot of these refer referrals will happen without a formal ask as long as those five things are present and true, but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t make an ask. So if you are going to make an ask, and you can, and you should if it feels right to do, Best time to do it in my view would be after a project has successfully wrapped and finalized, after you’ve had your postmortems, discussions about a retainer, discussions about continuity.
All that has been had. The project has been successful up until that point. Right? It is my belief, I guess, that the focus should be completely on serving that current client. And if you’re making that referral ask while there’s still some stuff left undone, it just feels a little bit premature. It almost feels like you’re moving on to a new relationship before giving your all to the current one, and that’s always a bit of just, yeah, not the best feeling in the world. So, yeah, best time would be after all those conversations have been had, after a project has successfully closed, and once that current client has felt like fully served within the scope of your project.
So how to do it?
Once again, awkward Canadian. There’s a million different ways to do it. I like doing it by email or by text, for two reasons. One, that’s probably where I feel most comfortable and least awkward.
But I’ve also heard from clients that they prefer to receive a referral request by email or text. Right? It could have them feel caught off guard in the moment if you say, like, by the way, like, do you have anyone to refer me to, right, in that moment? And then they go sign, then you go sign, and it’s just this, like, epically awkward moment you just both want to, like, disappear from, but can’t disappear because it’s in real time.
So, yeah, feedback I’ve had is they prefer having this, ask by email, and this is a little template that I’ve used. Right? So it’s like, hey, Naim. Really loved collaborating with you and your team on this. Right? So appreciate on them first.
It was awesome that we were able to achieve why. So the result you achieved, remind them of the results that you’ve had, that you can get the job done, right, as we said, on the five point criteria.
Then be super specific, like, epically specific about what you’re looking for. So this is, like, the number one complaint.
I’ve heard from, like, clients over the years. It’s just like, what am I referring you for? Right? Just be epically specific. So I’ll have three spots for a similar type of project next quarter.
So, like, specific timeline, like, when you’re available for it, like, how many spots are available human, course creator, biz owner, SaaS founder, like, whatever that is for them in your close network. So now you’re, So now you’re, shifting their attention to their close network for a very specific person who’s actively working on and then name the project that you’re available for, I’d so appreciate it appreciate the nitro. Right? So now it’s not a general, if you can think of anybody.
Right? I can’t think of anybody. Right? Like, you have to help my mind zero in on who that anybody is, for me to even think of that person.
So you’re just really kind of focusing their mind on that specific type of person.
And that’s sometimes I like to wrap it up with this. My best clients tend to be those who come into my world via other amazing humans and founders. Hey. That’s you, and it’s always a pleasure to bump them up on the priority queue wherever possible.
If you do have a referral fee that you offer, you can include it there.
What I don’t include, that I’ve seen a lot of people include is, like, if you can’t think about think of anyone, no worries. No problem. Just thought I’d ask. Like, don’t apologize for the referral.
Don’t let them off the hook without thinking about it.
I’ve seen that languaging come in my inbox. Like, if you could think of anyone who would be no. Sorry. I’ve had it come in my inbox.
If you can’t think of anyone, no worries. And I’m like, great. No worries. I don’t need to think about it.
So, yeah, I wouldn’t let them off the hook for that. Like, if you’ve done an amazing job, built an amazing relationship, like, why wouldn’t they? Right? It’s almost a gift for them to be able to know what you’re available for and share you within that network.
So, yeah, that is tier one.
Tier two, my all time favorite, defacto team, service providers, collaborators.
And this is where we’re gonna focus the majority of the time. It’s the one that we have all the worksheety, things on. But, essentially, who are you working with when you plug yourself into a team? Right? So the landing page designers, the funnel builders, the automation specialists, the person putting those emails into the CRM, into ActiveCampaign, HubSpot, whatever they’re using, ads managers, media buyers, who’s sending traffic to that landing page you just built.
Project managers, integrators, you know, operations, customer service managers even. Right? Like, in my interview process, I love, love, love talking to customer service managers, you know, sales directors.
These people who typically don’t get included in the copy process but have so much to say about the customers that they’re having sales conversations with, that they’re serving on the back end, such a rich source. And in my experience, they just love being included on that because, yeah, they don’t even get enough love internally. No one asks them. Marketing never asks sales or customer service.
So, yeah, awesome. They’ll love it. So these are people, I’ve really enjoyed building relationships with both for, yeah, both for getting the research I need, as well as delivering a result that can be well integrated with the team. Right?
Like, there’s no point me writing a long form sales page without first checking in with the designer. Right? Like, how do you enjoy collaborating with a copywriter? Right?
Like, you know, do you want me to is it helpful if I start wireframing some parts of this? Right? Is it helpful if I give, you know, screenshots of other sales pages that I really loved how they laid out a certain section? Right?
Or do you like to have just copy? Right? So just having these brief conversations, can go a long way and also the performance of the project itself and making sure that your work translates onto the page or the CRM or the, automated sequence appropriately.
So this has been, by far, my favorite referral source and the one with the longest shelf life. So So a past or current client may refer one person one time, but a media buyer or ad specialist that handles fifteen or even twenty or more accounts per year may refer you five or more times per year over multiple years. This has been my experience. The volume of referrals from tier two, gosh, it doesn’t stop.
Like, every month, I still get referrals from a media buyer, a designer, an automation person that I’ve worked with, like, three years ago. Like, it just doesn’t stop. And for whatever reason, that a lot of people go into tier two. So tier two has been, by far, the most lucrative source of referrals and the easiest one.
And it’s easy because designers, media buyers, funnel builders, strategists, integrators, oh, they all need great copy to make their thing work and thus make them look good. They need you. They need your genius. They need what you do.
They need to bring you onto other projects so that they can continue looking good, especially media buyers. Like, this has just been true for anyone running Facebook ads. Like, they are creating, like, new ad creatives all the time. They’re testing new angles all the time, and they need those angles to perform.
They need that copy to perform for their, for their benchmarks, for their KPIs to actually be hidden. So they need copywriters, and they’re the most invested and incentivized referral tier. Like, they’re not doing you a favor. You’re doing them as much of a favor as they’re doing you on this type of referral.
So, worksheets, you can work on this now. We can work on it later, but, really, this is all we have. So it’s so simple, almost like obnoxiously simple, but, like, list out, like, three five like, three to five people on your current defacto team. Like, people you are working with within, the projects you’re working on.
Right? Ideally, people who are also freelancers, but they could be in house as well. So many of these referral sources have been in house people who have transitioned to other organizations who have transitioned to freelance over the years. But just list three to five people, like, on these current teams you’re working with, and just put a check mark if you wanna schedule a fifteen minute coffee coffee chat with them.
Right?
And aim to have three to five of these conversations every month, like, fifteen to twenty minutes. It’s like an hour a month, and I promise you, it is an hour really, really well spent. So, on the worksheet, three to five people you can think of that would be, beneficial to have a fifteen minute chat with for the sake of the project you’re currently working on or just even a get to know each app.
Agenda topics.
Favorite one has always been what you can do to make their job easier. Right? So designer, wireframe, or no wireframes. If I’m working with a funnel builder or an automation specialist and I’m writing, like, these long email sequences that have, you know, tags, They have lists that need to be suppressed, segmentation.
Right? All these things that get really confusing unless you actually, like, list it out. Like, send it to this list but not this list. Tag them if they click this.
Like, ask them. Right? Like, how do you wanna partner? Like, what is the best way for me to make this so clear for you?
Right? That could be Loom videos. That could be, like, notes in your Google Docs. But just get on the same page and make them feel like they had a say in that process, and that you’re really looking out for them to make sure that they could do their job effectively.
Next topic topic of conversation that’s been so much fun and rewarding and useful and beneficial for the success of the project is just customer insights. What can they offer you to help you in your role? Right? So customer service director, reps, sales manager, sales reps, that has always been a great source of that.
And then if they’re freelance, if they’re on contract, or if it’s an agency, right, essentially asking them what type of clients do they love working with. Right? So be the first person to ask that question to them. Right?
Like, say that, you know, like, as you go about on your freelance journey, right, in your agency, like, referrals are gonna come up. Who do they love working with? Who are they open to referrals for? Right?
And, naturally, they’re gonna reciprocate on that question.
And then, simply, when wrapping a project, especially if, like, that’s kind of, like, a close to that relationship, just share a note. Right? It could be an email. So this is a simple email I’ve sent to, like, members of a team after I’ve wrapped a project, whether it’s a launch or an evergreen funnel.
I’ve sent this kind of email to the designer, the automation team, the media guys. It’s just like, yeah. Share specifically what you appreciated about them, their skills, their craft, and just say, you’d love to collaborate in the future whenever that opportunity presents itself. Right?
It goes such a long way and so simple to do.
So how do we maintain this network even if we’re not, like, crazy social people who love doing all this stuff.
My system, as it evolved into a system, was super simple. It’s really just like a spreadsheet.
So keep a spreadsheet, right, of these three to five people per project you work with, right, or any, like, CRM or whatever you use. Right? You can even create tasks for this. You can put it on your calendar.
Just aim to keep in touch every six to twelve months. Add them on socials, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, like like pictures of their cats. Like, just stay in touch any way you need to, and build that genuine relationship and connection and stay top of mind so that when the next project arises, it’s just so easy to think think of you again, right, because you’ve stayed top of mind.
So a reasonable goal is to create two to three new connections or potential referral partners on every new client account or team you work on. So if you work on just seven accounts or clients per year, that could be fourteen to twenty one referral partners who are highly motivated and invested in bringing you onto their other clients’ projects when the opportunity presents. And that isn’t just short term. In my experience, this extends multiple years.
And I haven’t even executed this strategy much much over the last year. Like, most of my network was built probably, like, three years ago, four years ago, five years ago, and those are still the referrals, that keep driving new leads and new projects.
Final one, other copywriters. Not gonna spend too too much time here, but, essentially, there are three aspects to this one. So copywriters who work on complementary things.
So you might be world class at trial to page sequences for SaaS. They’re killer pricing pages.
Very obvious. Client overflow, another very common one. So you work on a similar thing, but they’re overbooked. And the client in question, they can’t wait, like, four months until, you know, their wait list, you know, is complete.
Right? They need that project done now, and you you essentially have a choice. Right? You have a choice.
You could refer that to someone within your copy family, or you could have that person, like, be lost forever. Right? So client overflow, don’t underestimate the power of this one. So definitely, build relationships with copywriters who are doing a very similar thing.
That one has turned out to be a win win win multiple, multiple, multiple times. And then there’s the torch pass. Right? So fellow freelancer, who may be pivoting into a different space.
They may be building a new company. They may be taking a sabbatical, maternity, paternity leave, retiring, whatever it is. Right? It is someone in your space doing your thing, but they need to hand off their client roster, really quick to someone who is competent, someone who could take care of their clients at a very high level and a very high standard.
So these are the three types of referrals I’ve participated with with other copywriters. All of them have been really fun, really rewarding. So, yeah, keep those in mind, as you build your network with other copywriters.
Process for activating this tier, really simple. I mean, be visible, known, and clear in what you do within your paid or free copy communities.
Have a short list of the three or five copywriters who share a similar space and work with your dream clients. Get to know them, have chats with them wherever you can, and a short list of three to five copywriters who work on other complimentary pieces of the funnel for the same type of clients. So definitely have a copy chat with these folks. Like, these are your people to really build that automated referral network with, within tier three.
So we covered a lot of ground. I really want to focus more on tier two, but couldn’t ignore the other ones. So I’m going to keep quiet, get off this. Thirty minutes in.
Not too bad. And, yeah, open to questions, comments.
Yeah, anything that would be helpful for y’all.
I think that getting on coffee with the team has been one of the best pieces of advice, like, I’ve been given. I found, like, particularly ad strategist, it’s so helpful. Like, they always have referrals. I think what I need to work on more is that tier two, like, actually nurturing those relationships, because I’m definitely not doing I’m not actively trying to stay top of mind.
And the only other comment I had was I’ve what I have struggled with is getting referrals from clients. I think because I work on, like, a lot of funnels for one client, they tend to, like, not wanna refer me. They’re kind of they they’re always like, oh, we don’t wanna share you, and they kind of they joke about it. But, it’s like, have you, I mean, have you encountered that and found, like, a way to Yeah.
So that’s a real phenomena. Like and they say it, like, jokingly, and part of them is, like, really serious. Like, they wanna they wanna, like, gatekeep you. Yeah.
And it’s, like, such a compliment to how much they value you, and it’s also really annoying. Right?
How have I managed that?
Good question. I think it’s like so so if they’re, like, really wanting to gatekeep you, then they’re not going to refer you unless, like, you specifically ask. Right? So there’s that element, right, where, like, you could definitely send out that email or a version of that email that I shared, like, at the conclusion of a project.
So, like, they know you have the bandwidth. Right? And you could also reassure them in that email. Right?
Like, you’re fully available and committed to the projects that you have laid out. Right?
So that’s option one. Option number two is to just be less reliant on it and really focus on tier two. Like, tier two, even when tier one is done super well, like, tier two is the one where most of my referrals have come from.
So, yeah, I didn’t yeah. I wouldn’t focus too much on a solve for that problem and just see where the opportunity is for easier wins, I guess. And I think the easiest one is just, like, yeah, highlight those three to five people on each project or even two to three depending on, like, who you resonate with. Like, I’m not encouraging you to build relationships with people, like, you just wouldn’t wanna chat with outside of that project.
Yeah. There should be two to three on every project, at least, I would say.
Mhmm. And, yeah, just focus on that one.
Yep. Cool. Thanks, Ryan.
Cool. My pleasure.
Yeah. I think this is, I know that this has been true for I I haven’t worked with a lot of teams as a freelancer because a lot of the clients I work with are very small start ups at the moment.
But I have reached out to a lot of my old colleagues because I worked with a lot. It was, like, embedded in a lot of acquisition teams.
So I will reach out to a lot of my old colleagues because all of them have moved on to new companies Right.
And just ask them if they need help. And most of them have said yes. So that’s sort of been a a version of that.
Yep.
That has definitely been and, also, like, I already have that well established relationship because we work together, so they already know me. We’ve already done plenty of coffee chats, already have their phone number. So it’s easy to reach out and be like, oh, hey.
If you ever need any help, I’m here.
Cool. Has that been a source of referrals for you?
Yeah. For sure. Actually, I also got two clients from interviews where they didn’t hire me. And then I reached out to them, and I was like, you should hire me as if like, they were I was interviewing for a different position, and they didn’t give me the position because it was, like, more of a campaign manager or product marketing manager.
And it it was fine. Like, it also would not have been a good fit.
But then either they reached out to me or I reached out to them. And so now that’s true for, like, two or three different companies that they’re my long standing clients now.
Mhmm.
So I think that have definitely helped.
Yeah. That’s awesome.
When you say that, like, you don’t typically work with teams, like, who’s the one who’s typically, like, implementing your work either from, like, a design standpoint or a development standpoint or, yeah, any of those?
Well, I guess I guess I’m working Usually, I’m just working with one person. Usually, it’s like a very small marketing team, like two or three people because, let me tell you, marketing teams just do not have the budget for extra people.
So if they’re a series a, series b, like, they are barely scraping by.
They do not have any budget for media buying. And, like, ideally, I’d like to move into slightly larger companies, ideally outside of Israel where they have more money at the moment.
Mhmm.
But for them, it’s usually, like, one person. Or Mhmm. They have, like, onboarded me, and it’s a retainer, and I’m implementing.
Right. Right.
Myself.
I do have one new client that’s a little bit larger. Mhmm.
And the, like, campaign manager I think they call them, like, life cycle managers. Mhmm. This is more B2C oriented.
They’ll reach out to me, and I’ll just send it to them in a Google Doc.
Cool.
But, yeah, hopefully, as I start working with more companies that are more similar to the companies I used to work with when I was in house, then I can implement those same strategies, but it has been useful for me.
Awesome.
Nonetheless.
Got it. Cool. Yep.
Do you ever send a thank you gift as a token of you know, like, something as a token?
I have. Yeah. To clients you’re talking about specifically. Right?
To client or any I guess, anybody who refers you and lead, you know, results in business.
Yeah.
The short answer is, like, yes.
And it’s not, like, an automatic process where, like, you know, as soon as this referral is done, I contact my VA, and they have this specific list of gifts to order and send. Like, no. It’s, like, totally scrappy, like, as I feel inspired and as I feel, like, genuinely grateful.
And, like like, I’ve dropped the ball on that many times. Like, I’ll admit that. Right? Where it’s just like, you intend to, you want to, but it’s a crazy week, and then it’s two weeks later and you feel like it’s too late, but then you feel really awkward about it. And, like, like, I’ve been there.
But, yeah, like, gifting has definitely been part of it. I’ve definitely sent gifts to members of the team. Right?
Like project integrators, project managers in particular, because I noticed that they’re typically the ones who drive that decision to bring you on to the next project, the next project.
And they’re typically the ones that I’ve worked most closely with. Right? Not necessarily the CEO or the founder.
So, yeah, I’ve definitely enjoyed, like, surprising members of the team with gifts because they just don’t expect it, and it’s fun. It’s cool to gift.
So in that in that scenario, are you just sending a gift as a thank you after the project wraps? You’re like, it’s really great working with you. Here’s a little delightful surprise.
Yes. Totally. So there used to be, like, gifting apps that I used. I can’t remember all of them, but, like, they were really easy to, like, send and have them redeemed.
Mhmm.
Like, physical mail, like, I’ve sent that to you, but I live in Canada. Most of my clients are in the US, and it would take, like, a few extra weeks, which which is fine. Right? It gets it gets there when it gets there.
Like, when it comes to, like there’s a great book on gifting. I can’t remember what it was called, but, like, there are a few things that does that does anyone remember, like, a book on gifting?
No. That seems really weird to me.
Because it’s such a weird thing.
But, like I mean, like, give someone that as a gift just to, like, mess with them.
Right. A book on gifting? Oh gosh. I don’t know how I’d receive that. If I was gifted a book on gifting yeah. It’d probably be the end of the friendship. I’d be like, I don’t know what to do with this.
Yeah.
But what was it? Anyway, like, I think the point that I was trying to make was the gifts that I would send would just be, like, inspired by a conversation I had with the person. Right? Like, an interest I know they have.
Right? Or just something I know about them that I picked up from working together. So, like, those were the was the ones I’d, like, I felt most inspired to give versus, like I don’t know. Like, what’s a typical client gift?
Like yeah.
Like You’re not doing, like oh, sorry.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Another gift that, like, really landed well, like and, like, I just did it because I was inspired, like, spur at the moment, was like, I knew where my client lived. Right? And I just, like, booked them a massage, like, fifteen to a spa, like, twenty minutes from their house. Right? Like, stressful launch vibes and, like, you know, treat yourself after this. Like, I’ve treated my client and their local team to dinner. Like, that was a bit of an expensive gift, but it was, like, one of those, like, higher ticket launches I helped with.
So, yeah, things that, like, don’t just get tucked away but actually have a lot of meaning and a lot of value, in the relationship that also feel really good to gift are things that I would do. And I wish in retrospect that I was, like, more consistent with it and didn’t let my own, like, overwhelm and stress, like, get in the way of me actually doing it consistently and doing it well.
Yeah.
I don’t know if this will help, but I did had a really, really good find for a gift.
And this kind of only worked for me because all of my clients are local, and I was able to drop it off. But I found a local baker that makes macaroons, and I had her make macaroons in my colors, in my brand colors. Oh. And then they would, like, be boxed well, different size boxes, but there would be a few with logos. She, like, took a piece of fondant and printed my logo on it. Mhmm.
And they were, like, homemade.
It was, like, somebody working out of their house.
Everyone loved it. The macaroons were really delicious. They were local. They were fresh.
So I don’t know if, like, maybe you can find somebody near them, but it was a huge hit as opposed to, like, giving somebody a water bottle or a notebook that they’re never gonna use again.
Right. Right.
Okay. So this is I mean but it sounds like you don’t have a these are, like, thank you gifts to show appreciation after you’ve worked with them. You don’t have a systematized kickback system for people who refer.
I don’t.
No. No.
I did do that, like, a couple times.
Just, I feel like maybe it would depend on the situation. Like, I, yeah, I did that a couple times with, with clients who referred me Mhmm. Because I felt like they were taking a chance or, like, sticking their neck me, and I was really grateful for the new type of work. But, yeah, I don’t haven’t, made it a systematized thing, like a standard practice.
I was curious though if you did.
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like amazing if you can. Right? Like and we can only do so many things and systematize so many things.
Right? So, like, it’s one of those things where, like, looking back, I’m like, yeah. I wish I did that. Right?
And I didn’t. Right? For whatever reason. Right? Like, overwhelm, enough on my plate, stress, like, doing too many things, like, all at once. But, yeah, I think if you can find a way to do it, like, it’s definitely gonna help you more than not. So yeah.
Mhmm. Cool. Cool. Anything else on this topic, or should we dive into some copy?
Sweet. Seems like we’re going complete on that.
Naomi, did you wanna share something?
I also I have a question that I would love if you could or, Anantra, I’d love if you could help me out with.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
If nobody’s back. No. You can go. You can go.
Oh, I didn’t realize I was on mute. Sorry. I was trying to bring up the file, but go ahead if you wanna ask.
Okay. It’s hopefully a quickish one.
So I worked I worked on a launch in January.
It was a it was a good launch, and then we ever grow in-depth. So I set up a day on every funnel, and I thought it was converting really well. But it turns out, like, most of, like, ninety percent of the sales are actually coming just from ads to sales page.
Mhmm.
So, yeah, I’m, like, optimizing the webinar funnel, but I’m kind of like, is the best way to optimize it just to be like, let’s just run ads in sales page. It’s performing so much better. Like, the webinar funnels, I think, converting at, like, two percent. And then for the ads, it’s, like, twenty four dollars for a twelve hundred dollar sale.
But I, like, I don’t wanna do that because it kind of like, I don’t wanna, like, admit that my system isn’t working as well as just a sales page. And I’m confused as to, like, why that would be happening. Like, why would a sales page alone convert better than a webinar and emails?
Right.
Any thoughts going on?
What what’s the product, and what’s the price point?
It’s a bookkeeping course, and it’s twelve hundred dollars.
Bookkeeping course for twelve hundred dollars, and it’s converting better ad to sales page at twelve hundred dollars?
Yeah. Weird. Right?
Yeah. It’s a little surprising.
Like, how how like, is it close? Like, I missed some of those metrics you just shared.
Like No.
It’s not close. It’s like so, basically, I set up the webinar funnel, and then I wrote retargeting ads to with the to go to people that have clicked on the sales page. But the ads strategy is kind of messed up, and the retargeting ads just went to everyone. But then they were performing so well, like, twenty four dollars per sale sale. That the media buyer was like, let’s just leave them on. Yeah.
And, like, they’re absolutely sure, like, that’s all cold audience?
Or they’re I I they haven’t been through the webinar funnel.
Then they might not be completely cold. There is a mix of warm and cold, but they haven’t watched the webinar.
Mhmm. So what, like, what warm ish audiences might be mixed in there, I guess, is what I’m asking.
Like As just people that have bought other products, been on the site.
Like, they have a very loyal audience.
Yeah. I mean, it would make sense if, like, a warm audience is getting directed straight to the sales page versus a cold audience going through the webinar funnel. Right? So, like, that could have something to do with it if they bought something before, if they’re familiar with her.
Like, if they’re already bought on the idea of, like, her her process and the goal, right, like, of doing that thing, then, yeah, straight to sales page to that audience who’s already aware of her and, you know, even, like, product aware or solution aware. Like, that will convert more than the webinar funnel to cold. Right? So it’s like I think it’s less about the funnel and more that the webinar funnel was going all to cold, and you’re measuring that against these retargeting ads that were going out to a mix of warm and cold without knowing exactly what that ratio is.
Like, my guess would be there’s more warm within that ad set than cold. Like, that would be my guess. And it’s like pure like, I just don’t see a reality where those are all cold cold, like, having never heard of her before.
Yeah. That’s such a good point. I mean, I did see that some of them had watched the live webinar in January as well. So Yeah. Okay. So I should just focus on optimizing the webinar, like, under with reason to believe it’s for to a college audience.
And then I would say so.
Right? Like like, I know it’s a tough argument to make with, you know, the media buyer and even the client. Right? If they see, like, the return on the ad spend or that set that’s going straight to the sales page.
I think the argument I’d make, right, is, like, if we don’t know how much of that is already warm and maybe you can find that out. Right? Like, you def definitely, like, check-in on those buyers if they’re on the CRM and see their history. Yeah. Right? Like, to some degree. Like, I would really be curious how much of those are, like, cold, cold, and that was their very first interaction with the brand.
Yeah. But alt but, ultimately, like, at some point, you’re going to run out of a warm audience unless you have the funnel to convert cold. Right? So, I’d keep them both even if, like, one looks like it’s way over performing outperforming the other one right now. I think just a lack of clarity of how many of those are truly new leads.
Yeah. If if it’s not all new leads, you definitely need a funnel for cold leads to warm them up. So, yeah, I’d kinda, like, leave with that as the main argument.
But it is weird. Yeah. And, like yeah. I just don’t really see a reality where, like, with both audiences being equal, like, the cold to a twelve hundred dollar product would way outperform, like, the webinar funnel.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. It’s it’s annoying because I I saw, like, they made, like, eighty thousand, and I was like, yay. They won Evergreen.
And then I was like, what?
Mhmm. So disappointing.
But, yeah. No. That makes sense. I didn’t even think about whether it’d be warm or cold traffic. So, yeah, I’ll leave them both on and just keep optimizing and hope that the conversion rate goes up.
Yeah.
Cool. Cheers.
Okay. So this is the company that I interviewed for last year, and it was sort of like a campaign manager position. And I kept giving them good ideas for copy, And they kept asking me about how I would manage the campaign. So I think I’m getting that job.
But they came back to me recently, and hired me anyways. Cool. So the original the good version is I, I I didn’t see their entire brief, so I just wrote it the way I wanted to write it. Okay.
So I introduced I I included a lot of interesting sparkly details that I got from some of the articles on the current state of the insurance home insurance business.
Yep.
And the second one is the, set of emails I recently wrote, that’s more that it hears a little bit more closely to their, guidelines that I think is kinda boring, but I’m not really sure how to improve it. So thought I would Got it. Show both of those.
Perfect.
So it’s the same one. I just did a longer and a shorter version.
Got it. Alright.
So they’re comparing home insurance premiums or comparing home insurance rates with this tool.
Yep. Sweet. Has and this hasn’t run yet?
Or it They they said I didn’t actually see the brief that they sent.
It was, like, on the second page, and I missed it. So this Okay. Was never sent to anyone, but I included it just as, like, comparison. Like, this is what I would write if I had no restrictions. And then the second one is, like, more close to their brand guidelines, but I think it’s really dull and really boring, But they keep going to be shorter and tighter. But Right.
Got it.
I’m not really sure what to do. So you just see, this one is a little bit more story oriented.
It’s a little bit draws you a little bit more.
Yep. Exactly. I have reference points for these.
And just for the record, she did say she liked she did say that she liked it. Mhmm. This wasn’t according to their brand voice.
Mhmm. This one wasn’t according to their brand voice.
Yeah.
And, like, based primarily on, like, this section here?
Yeah. Their brand voice is a little bit more enthusiastic.
I got it. Yeah.
Short to the point. Mhmm. Look at the ones on the second tab that I wrote today.
Yep.
You’ll see that there’s hints of that of those kind of stories from the first one, but it’s a lot more watered down. It’s a lot more to the point. Right.
I don’t really feel like I’m doing anything.
I feel like I’m just, like, taking everything that they say and making sure that it’s readable and putting everything down on a page.
So these are people who, submitted for a quote on an online form and then can follow through with it, essentially?
They got a quote or two, and then they went through the flow, and then they churned.
And they’re trying to get them to talk to an agent Got it.
Cool.
To either go through it or to potentially add coverage for other insurance items.
Yep. Cool. I like the subject line because that really warrants us in that context.
Yeah. All three of these, actually.
If you like many.
Maybe you have this information, maybe you don’t. Like, what is the main driver or motivating factor for people submitting a quote? Is it, like, that they already have home insurance, but it’s up for renewal and got a price hike?
Is that correct?
So that’s what they sent me some news articles. Apparently, home insurance rates are skyrocketing all across the country, and there’s more and more claims. Some insurance companies have to raise their rates.
Right.
So I figured I would bring that piece of relevant news, to to the table. And Yeah. A lot of people feel like prices have gone up.
Yep.
So it can feel like every turn brings another price hike. I think, like, if you were to ground this in specificity, there might even be an opportunity to, like, in brackets, like, underneath it saying, like, you know, maybe you’re up for renewal and, you know, essentially, you know, your home insurance company reward your loyalty with a twenty percent plus hike. Right? Like, that is typically the reason I think like, I’m not an insurance industry expert, but, typically, it’s like, you know, you get kind of, like, the renewal notice. They raise your rate even though you didn’t, like, claim anything, and you’re like, bastards. I’m gonna get them by switching to someone else. So maybe you could capture some of that here or at least mirror that back.
That’s why I definitely don’t want to let a recent quote or address get lost in your inbox. Hippo has teamed up with forty plus trusted carriers. You got the perfect number of your company at a reasonable price.
So I mean, it’s like the languaging is fair.
Like, I almost, like, glaze over reasonable price. Like, it doesn’t feel it it feels like what an insurance company would say, and maybe, like, they have to say it that way. Right? But it’s like, how could that be kind of upgraded?
Reasonable? Like, what? Are people, like, are people looking for reasonable, or are they looking for fair, or are they looking for better?
Like I think there’s a lot of indignant at the fact that insurance prices are are skyrocketing, and this is especially true in California where I think a lot of differences.
And so I was trying to capture that sense of indigence.
Mhmm. Awesome.
I have a question. Do you mention forty plus trusted carriers to, point out the fact that that, they’re gonna get the best rate because you have so many to choose from.
Yeah. Yeah.
That was one of the requirements that they asked me to include.
So it’s it’s like comparing different rates, essentially. Mhmm. They have, like, a couple of different solutions that they offer.
Mhmm.
So one thing you may consider adding here is, like, a reasonable price without having to, you know, submit for dozens of quotes and getting overwhelmed in the process. Right? Because, like, if they’re churning, it’s and if they submitted a quote to this company, chances are they’ve been submitting quotes, and they’ve been getting retargeted, like or targeted on Facebook from, from, like, every other insurance company. That’s typically what happens when, like like, I I submitted a quote.
I, like, changed my car insurance, like, a few weeks ago. And, like, every other car insurance company, Facebook feed right now. Right? So, like, that could be a reason they’re turning, and you could just kind of, like, include that here without having to, you know, submit quotes to every company that hits your feed, right, or whatever.
So that could be an anti churn strategy or preempting that, or addressing the reason why they might be.
But yeah. Otherwise, that’s good.
This is Yeah.
These ones are all different.
Yep.
So the second one is they want they want them to add earthquake coverage or other coverage, but specifically earthquakes for California, and the third one is there are several different kinds. So the third one, I was able to include a little bit of a a story.
Okay.
That one, I thought, was probably the best even though that was a watered down version. Yeah. That one.
This one here. Yep.
Yeah. It was a little bit longer at first, but cut it down. Mhmm. Because I can like, that’s the other thing that I hear over and over and over again.
They always tell me, Naomi, this is too negative. This is this is not our brand language. We don’t wanna scare people. We don’t wanna get people down.
That’s not gonna make people convert. I’ve heard that at least a hundred thousand times. And so the kind of material that makes really good stories is the kind of copy that always get cut always gets cut for me.
Right.
Yeah. It’s it’s interesting. I don’t have the research to, like, really inform this. Right? But, like, is there is there is the customer’s, like, main driver here just, like, to get the best price and move on?
Right? Or is it features of the protection and really making sure that they’re protected and feel secure? Right? And, like, I don’t know which one of those weighs in more of the more inside the head of, like, your specific client.
Like, if it’s really just about, like, price, right, like, reasonable price amidst all these, like, skyrocketing things, then I agree. Right? Like, the story should be more about, like, feeling, like like, this is fair and reasonable and that their budget isn’t under attack, and now they still have enough income, right, to focus on the things they really wanna, like, focus on. Right?
Like, no one wants to pay for insurance. Right? And, like, I think just having that acknowledgment is helpful. Right?
Like, if they are primarily concerned about price versus all the details of protection. So I think, like, that’s a really important question for the client. Like, it’s, like, what’s the main driver? So, like, the types of protection, the level of protection, and feeling the trust in the protection, or is it best price and move on and forget about it?
Like, what is driving that buying decision?
I think for these second two emails, it’s that you may not get as much flood or earthquake insurance just to realize because those are not usually covered under specific under Yeah.
Home coverage plan.
Yep. Got it.
I don’t think you’re being too negative. Like, I think, like, you’re mentioning what it does, right, the features of the product, and that’s what they’re getting insurance for. So they the feedback on this one was too negative?
No. No.
I’m just saying that’s what I’ve been doing a thousand times.
Got it. Got it.
The things that I don’t see as negatives. So it has to be short. It has to be positive. It has to be enthusiastic, but I still wanna make it interesting. So Yep.
Yeah. Trying to look for ways to help it come through.
Yeah. Have they been, like, specific in terms of, like, what short means to them?
The last time I got a, like, a a template of what they had in their last email Mhmm.
And so that was helpful. But I would say that, like, this is probably the limit to the number of words. Like, a hundred and fifty words for the email would probably be pushing it.
Mhmm. Got it.
Like, I don’t wanna harp on, like, oh my gosh. What’s gonna happen if you don’t get all of this coverage?
There’s gonna be a flood that destroys your house, and Yeah.
We’ll be able to pay for your grandmother’s retirement home. And if you get sick, like you know? Mhmm.
Oh, totally. Yeah.
Like, you can go really far with this, and I don’t wanna Yeah.
No. I I I agree. Right? Like, those stories probably will just kinda repel more than yeah.
They’re difficult to read. Like, that’s the thing. Right? Like, no one even wants wants to, like, visualize those realities, or, like, the word pictures that, like, come to mind, like, when you read over it.
But, yeah, you’re talking about these things specifically. It protects you in your yeah. I mean, generally, like, I agree with that, like, general orientation, right, on the lighter side, on the shorter side, and more focused on, like, the immediate benefit that they’re doing this for, right, which is peace of mind or price. Right?
And, like, what that means and how that appears. Right? Like, feel like this is done, you’re covered, and you can just enjoy your life. Right?
So, yeah, like, that’s really the extent of it. I think, like, these are generally good. I think that there might be opportunity that I use I use the word might. It’s not a hard recommend. But, like, just languaging that mirrors back why they may have churned, right, and to essentially reflect that proximity to the solution, right, so that they don’t need to be in this, like, weeks long process of spending hours on the phone with other providers. I think that connects to your feature of, like, forty plus trusted carriers.
Is, like, your partner there so that they don’t need to have endless conversations, you know, price shopping. Right? You know, like, you can even have a subject line like price shopping question mark. Right? And an email that just focuses on, like, you’re already in touch with forty plus carriers. Right? And you’re gonna get them that best price and save them dozens of hours of just, like, nonstop calls.
So Okay.
Yeah. But generally, good stuff. Yeah.
I see you have a few different, like, call to action options as well. Has that been, like, tested or something that your client wants to test?
Well, it’s a it’s a different it’s a different action.
Right.
We wanted them to just get the quote.
That’s when we wanted them to actually talk to somebody because they already got the quote.
Got it.
Data flows.
Cool.
Alright. Thank you. This is actually Great. This is helpful.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Cool. Cool. Any final notes or questions before we wrap, or is everyone good for today?
Guess we’re good.
Cool. Thanks all. Have an awesome rest of the week.
Bye.
Bye.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
Alright. Everyone seeing that okay?
Beautiful.
Alright. So one thing I’m noticing is I always, like, title these things with, with, like, a super direct response headline, and then I realize I have to say it out loud in a really casual way later. And it’s just, like, really awkward. So I almost don’t wanna read, like, the title of this.
I’ll just, like, let that be on the screen for three seconds and let y’all read it so I don’t have to speak copy of that. There we go. A dead simple automated referral network to secure decades worth of well paid cut projects without awkward ass or fake as fuck friendships. There we go.
I said it about that. I got it on myself.
Cool. So this is all about my referral system.
Yeah. I don’t know. I think I’ve taught this more pieces of this, like, once or twice in various bonuses and various trainings, but the beaniest part or the meatiest part is the one that I’ve always kind of, like, went a little bit too quickly. Like, it’s also been, like, stuffed within a bigger training. So I really want to take the opportunity to, like, really give this one the time and the process to have it implemented because it’s, by far, been, like, my most impactful, client acquisition system over almost a decade. So, yeah, we’re gonna formalize it, process it, processize it, and make it real, and it’s real if it’s on a worksheet. So there we go.
Fun fact one.
Eighty five percent, I’d say, more than eighty five percent of the clients I’ve served over the last decade were referral based, and the other fifteen percent was a combo of guest presenting and masterminds.
So, yeah, this is also in a very specific order. So guest presenting and masterminds, another awesome source, live events, great source, and podcast, social posting, all that stuff, a distant third. So eighty five percent from referrals. Then of that remaining fifteen percent, I’d say, like, most of that was live events and guest guest presenting in courses and masterminds.
Fun fact two, never run ads, cool DM, or dance on TikTok.
Nothing wrong with any of these. Not hating on any of these. I’d do them if I could. I’d dance if I could, but I can’t.
And when you’re almost forty, you just kind of accept that, like, I’m not meant to go through this lifetime with dance moves. And, yeah, you make up for it in other ways. So, yeah, Joe could attest to this. I was at her wedding.
I I was awful on the dance floor. The worst. I avoided the dance floor at all costs until I had no choice. So fun fact to you.
Fun fact three. I’m an awkward Canadian who forgets to call my own family members on their birthday. I’ve been characterized as misanthropic, but I’m really not. I don’t think I am.
And all this to say that I’m so far from perfect in cultivating and maintaining business relationships. Like, this isn’t an area I consider myself to be a ten on ten at.
Yeah. It’s weird for me, and I do it imperfectly.
And, yeah, I just want that to be known. Like, to implement these strategies, you don’t have to be, like, the most social, human y person in the world.
And there’s so much margin or imperfection in all that. And fun fact four, I’ve systematized all of this after the fact. Meaning, while I was using it, it was all by accident and highly successful without ever formalizing it or turning it into a process. Meaning, if you turn this into a process and use some of the steps I’ll give you in this training, you’ll probably crush it and, like, blow my results with it out of the water.
So that’s my hope is that, yeah, you take what I did accidentally, formalize it, make it real, make it a process, make it a task you can actually do, and, yeah, beat my results on it. So without further ado, the three tiered automatic referral network. So tier one is your current or your past clients. So what makes you referable?
We could have, like, a sixty minute discussion just on this.
Typically, when clients have referred me, I’d ask them, like, what made you think of me? Right? Like, what made you refer me? Like, what made you feel comfortable referring me?
Like, that’s the one question I would always ask after I said thank you for the referral, of course. But, yeah, why did you refer me? Right? And that gives you so much juicy information about what they value about you and how it gets communicated to others.
So this has been what I’ve received back, in no particular order on this one at least. So performance, obviously, you gotta be getting results. They’re not not gonna refer you to their close network and their friends if you just can’t do what you say you’re gonna do, and it’s not working. So performance, that matters.
Probably above all else, communications, clear expectations.
The bar for this is still so low, and I think it’ll remain low forever because it’s been low forever.
But just be a decent communicator. Set clear expectations.
Like, the number one headache clients and project managers in particular have had is, like, I just don’t know if this is getting done. I don’t know if it’s being worked on. I don’t I can’t trust on the reliability of this freelancer to get the work done. So communication, clear expectations, vital, massive, huge, and makes you highly referable because they know you’re not gonna cause drama, stress, and energetic tax on the people they refer you out to, which is what they’re afraid that they’ll be responsible for in referring you out. Right? If you are an absolute nightmare, a mess, refusing, totally inflexible about everything, they feel like that comes back on them. So it’s like almost reverse engineer what makes you not referable and optimize against that.
So low drama, low stress, low energetic cost. Typically, the feedback I’ve had in response to the question of what made you refer me is you were so easy and simple to work with. Right? So take that for what it’s worth.
How can you be low drama, low energy cost, while, of course, still maintaining your boundaries and your scopes and pushing back where you have to. So, there we have it. And, finally, like, they know you’re open to taking more clients. So this is, like, an obvious one.
Right? It’s like, I’ve had clients want to refer me, but they simply just, like, said, oh, I didn’t know you were still taking clients. Right? Like, they just assumed I was fully booked up.
They just assumed that, like especially if you position yourself, I think, like, Joe had, like, the diva list way back in the day and a wait list. Right? Especially if you have a wait list and they had to wait to get on your calendar, they’re just gonna see my book full. Right?
So it’s just yeah. Like, they can refer you if they think that you’re not open for more business. So just making sure they know that.
That’s really the five aspects for tier one.
In most cases, when it comes to being referred by current or past clients, to be honest, I never even had to ask to be referred. It just kinda happened organically when the opportunity presented for them, and those five things were present.
And this is also how I preferred out freelancers that I’ve hired in the past. It was like, this person was awesome. They were easy to work with. Oh, opportunity here. Let me refer them. So a lot of these refer referrals will happen without a formal ask as long as those five things are present and true, but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t make an ask. So if you are going to make an ask, and you can, and you should if it feels right to do, Best time to do it in my view would be after a project has successfully wrapped and finalized, after you’ve had your postmortems, discussions about a retainer, discussions about continuity.
All that has been had. The project has been successful up until that point. Right? It is my belief, I guess, that the focus should be completely on serving that current client. And if you’re making that referral ask while there’s still some stuff left undone, it just feels a little bit premature. It almost feels like you’re moving on to a new relationship before giving your all to the current one, and that’s always a bit of just, yeah, not the best feeling in the world. So, yeah, best time would be after all those conversations have been had, after a project has successfully closed, and once that current client has felt like fully served within the scope of your project.
So how to do it?
Once again, awkward Canadian. There’s a million different ways to do it. I like doing it by email or by text, for two reasons. One, that’s probably where I feel most comfortable and least awkward.
But I’ve also heard from clients that they prefer to receive a referral request by email or text. Right? It could have them feel caught off guard in the moment if you say, like, by the way, like, do you have anyone to refer me to, right, in that moment? And then they go sign, then you go sign, and it’s just this, like, epically awkward moment you just both want to, like, disappear from, but can’t disappear because it’s in real time.
So, yeah, feedback I’ve had is they prefer having this, ask by email, and this is a little template that I’ve used. Right? So it’s like, hey, Naim. Really loved collaborating with you and your team on this. Right? So appreciate on them first.
It was awesome that we were able to achieve why. So the result you achieved, remind them of the results that you’ve had, that you can get the job done, right, as we said, on the five point criteria.
Then be super specific, like, epically specific about what you’re looking for. So this is, like, the number one complaint.
I’ve heard from, like, clients over the years. It’s just like, what am I referring you for? Right? Just be epically specific. So I’ll have three spots for a similar type of project next quarter.
So, like, specific timeline, like, when you’re available for it, like, how many spots are available human, course creator, biz owner, SaaS founder, like, whatever that is for them in your close network. So now you’re, So now you’re, shifting their attention to their close network for a very specific person who’s actively working on and then name the project that you’re available for, I’d so appreciate it appreciate the nitro. Right? So now it’s not a general, if you can think of anybody.
Right? I can’t think of anybody. Right? Like, you have to help my mind zero in on who that anybody is, for me to even think of that person.
So you’re just really kind of focusing their mind on that specific type of person.
And that’s sometimes I like to wrap it up with this. My best clients tend to be those who come into my world via other amazing humans and founders. Hey. That’s you, and it’s always a pleasure to bump them up on the priority queue wherever possible.
If you do have a referral fee that you offer, you can include it there.
What I don’t include, that I’ve seen a lot of people include is, like, if you can’t think about think of anyone, no worries. No problem. Just thought I’d ask. Like, don’t apologize for the referral.
Don’t let them off the hook without thinking about it.
I’ve seen that languaging come in my inbox. Like, if you could think of anyone who would be no. Sorry. I’ve had it come in my inbox.
If you can’t think of anyone, no worries. And I’m like, great. No worries. I don’t need to think about it.
So, yeah, I wouldn’t let them off the hook for that. Like, if you’ve done an amazing job, built an amazing relationship, like, why wouldn’t they? Right? It’s almost a gift for them to be able to know what you’re available for and share you within that network.
So, yeah, that is tier one.
Tier two, my all time favorite, defacto team, service providers, collaborators.
And this is where we’re gonna focus the majority of the time. It’s the one that we have all the worksheety, things on. But, essentially, who are you working with when you plug yourself into a team? Right? So the landing page designers, the funnel builders, the automation specialists, the person putting those emails into the CRM, into ActiveCampaign, HubSpot, whatever they’re using, ads managers, media buyers, who’s sending traffic to that landing page you just built.
Project managers, integrators, you know, operations, customer service managers even. Right? Like, in my interview process, I love, love, love talking to customer service managers, you know, sales directors.
These people who typically don’t get included in the copy process but have so much to say about the customers that they’re having sales conversations with, that they’re serving on the back end, such a rich source. And in my experience, they just love being included on that because, yeah, they don’t even get enough love internally. No one asks them. Marketing never asks sales or customer service.
So, yeah, awesome. They’ll love it. So these are people, I’ve really enjoyed building relationships with both for, yeah, both for getting the research I need, as well as delivering a result that can be well integrated with the team. Right?
Like, there’s no point me writing a long form sales page without first checking in with the designer. Right? Like, how do you enjoy collaborating with a copywriter? Right?
Like, you know, do you want me to is it helpful if I start wireframing some parts of this? Right? Is it helpful if I give, you know, screenshots of other sales pages that I really loved how they laid out a certain section? Right?
Or do you like to have just copy? Right? So just having these brief conversations, can go a long way and also the performance of the project itself and making sure that your work translates onto the page or the CRM or the, automated sequence appropriately.
So this has been, by far, my favorite referral source and the one with the longest shelf life. So So a past or current client may refer one person one time, but a media buyer or ad specialist that handles fifteen or even twenty or more accounts per year may refer you five or more times per year over multiple years. This has been my experience. The volume of referrals from tier two, gosh, it doesn’t stop.
Like, every month, I still get referrals from a media buyer, a designer, an automation person that I’ve worked with, like, three years ago. Like, it just doesn’t stop. And for whatever reason, that a lot of people go into tier two. So tier two has been, by far, the most lucrative source of referrals and the easiest one.
And it’s easy because designers, media buyers, funnel builders, strategists, integrators, oh, they all need great copy to make their thing work and thus make them look good. They need you. They need your genius. They need what you do.
They need to bring you onto other projects so that they can continue looking good, especially media buyers. Like, this has just been true for anyone running Facebook ads. Like, they are creating, like, new ad creatives all the time. They’re testing new angles all the time, and they need those angles to perform.
They need that copy to perform for their, for their benchmarks, for their KPIs to actually be hidden. So they need copywriters, and they’re the most invested and incentivized referral tier. Like, they’re not doing you a favor. You’re doing them as much of a favor as they’re doing you on this type of referral.
So, worksheets, you can work on this now. We can work on it later, but, really, this is all we have. So it’s so simple, almost like obnoxiously simple, but, like, list out, like, three five like, three to five people on your current defacto team. Like, people you are working with within, the projects you’re working on.
Right? Ideally, people who are also freelancers, but they could be in house as well. So many of these referral sources have been in house people who have transitioned to other organizations who have transitioned to freelance over the years. But just list three to five people, like, on these current teams you’re working with, and just put a check mark if you wanna schedule a fifteen minute coffee coffee chat with them.
Right?
And aim to have three to five of these conversations every month, like, fifteen to twenty minutes. It’s like an hour a month, and I promise you, it is an hour really, really well spent. So, on the worksheet, three to five people you can think of that would be, beneficial to have a fifteen minute chat with for the sake of the project you’re currently working on or just even a get to know each app.
Agenda topics.
Favorite one has always been what you can do to make their job easier. Right? So designer, wireframe, or no wireframes. If I’m working with a funnel builder or an automation specialist and I’m writing, like, these long email sequences that have, you know, tags, They have lists that need to be suppressed, segmentation.
Right? All these things that get really confusing unless you actually, like, list it out. Like, send it to this list but not this list. Tag them if they click this.
Like, ask them. Right? Like, how do you wanna partner? Like, what is the best way for me to make this so clear for you?
Right? That could be Loom videos. That could be, like, notes in your Google Docs. But just get on the same page and make them feel like they had a say in that process, and that you’re really looking out for them to make sure that they could do their job effectively.
Next topic topic of conversation that’s been so much fun and rewarding and useful and beneficial for the success of the project is just customer insights. What can they offer you to help you in your role? Right? So customer service director, reps, sales manager, sales reps, that has always been a great source of that.
And then if they’re freelance, if they’re on contract, or if it’s an agency, right, essentially asking them what type of clients do they love working with. Right? So be the first person to ask that question to them. Right?
Like, say that, you know, like, as you go about on your freelance journey, right, in your agency, like, referrals are gonna come up. Who do they love working with? Who are they open to referrals for? Right?
And, naturally, they’re gonna reciprocate on that question.
And then, simply, when wrapping a project, especially if, like, that’s kind of, like, a close to that relationship, just share a note. Right? It could be an email. So this is a simple email I’ve sent to, like, members of a team after I’ve wrapped a project, whether it’s a launch or an evergreen funnel.
I’ve sent this kind of email to the designer, the automation team, the media guys. It’s just like, yeah. Share specifically what you appreciated about them, their skills, their craft, and just say, you’d love to collaborate in the future whenever that opportunity presents itself. Right?
It goes such a long way and so simple to do.
So how do we maintain this network even if we’re not, like, crazy social people who love doing all this stuff.
My system, as it evolved into a system, was super simple. It’s really just like a spreadsheet.
So keep a spreadsheet, right, of these three to five people per project you work with, right, or any, like, CRM or whatever you use. Right? You can even create tasks for this. You can put it on your calendar.
Just aim to keep in touch every six to twelve months. Add them on socials, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, like like pictures of their cats. Like, just stay in touch any way you need to, and build that genuine relationship and connection and stay top of mind so that when the next project arises, it’s just so easy to think think of you again, right, because you’ve stayed top of mind.
So a reasonable goal is to create two to three new connections or potential referral partners on every new client account or team you work on. So if you work on just seven accounts or clients per year, that could be fourteen to twenty one referral partners who are highly motivated and invested in bringing you onto their other clients’ projects when the opportunity presents. And that isn’t just short term. In my experience, this extends multiple years.
And I haven’t even executed this strategy much much over the last year. Like, most of my network was built probably, like, three years ago, four years ago, five years ago, and those are still the referrals, that keep driving new leads and new projects.
Final one, other copywriters. Not gonna spend too too much time here, but, essentially, there are three aspects to this one. So copywriters who work on complementary things.
So you might be world class at trial to page sequences for SaaS. They’re killer pricing pages.
Very obvious. Client overflow, another very common one. So you work on a similar thing, but they’re overbooked. And the client in question, they can’t wait, like, four months until, you know, their wait list, you know, is complete.
Right? They need that project done now, and you you essentially have a choice. Right? You have a choice.
You could refer that to someone within your copy family, or you could have that person, like, be lost forever. Right? So client overflow, don’t underestimate the power of this one. So definitely, build relationships with copywriters who are doing a very similar thing.
That one has turned out to be a win win win multiple, multiple, multiple times. And then there’s the torch pass. Right? So fellow freelancer, who may be pivoting into a different space.
They may be building a new company. They may be taking a sabbatical, maternity, paternity leave, retiring, whatever it is. Right? It is someone in your space doing your thing, but they need to hand off their client roster, really quick to someone who is competent, someone who could take care of their clients at a very high level and a very high standard.
So these are the three types of referrals I’ve participated with with other copywriters. All of them have been really fun, really rewarding. So, yeah, keep those in mind, as you build your network with other copywriters.
Process for activating this tier, really simple. I mean, be visible, known, and clear in what you do within your paid or free copy communities.
Have a short list of the three or five copywriters who share a similar space and work with your dream clients. Get to know them, have chats with them wherever you can, and a short list of three to five copywriters who work on other complimentary pieces of the funnel for the same type of clients. So definitely have a copy chat with these folks. Like, these are your people to really build that automated referral network with, within tier three.
So we covered a lot of ground. I really want to focus more on tier two, but couldn’t ignore the other ones. So I’m going to keep quiet, get off this. Thirty minutes in.
Not too bad. And, yeah, open to questions, comments.
Yeah, anything that would be helpful for y’all.
I think that getting on coffee with the team has been one of the best pieces of advice, like, I’ve been given. I found, like, particularly ad strategist, it’s so helpful. Like, they always have referrals. I think what I need to work on more is that tier two, like, actually nurturing those relationships, because I’m definitely not doing I’m not actively trying to stay top of mind.
And the only other comment I had was I’ve what I have struggled with is getting referrals from clients. I think because I work on, like, a lot of funnels for one client, they tend to, like, not wanna refer me. They’re kind of they they’re always like, oh, we don’t wanna share you, and they kind of they joke about it. But, it’s like, have you, I mean, have you encountered that and found, like, a way to Yeah.
So that’s a real phenomena. Like and they say it, like, jokingly, and part of them is, like, really serious. Like, they wanna they wanna, like, gatekeep you. Yeah.
And it’s, like, such a compliment to how much they value you, and it’s also really annoying. Right?
How have I managed that?
Good question. I think it’s like so so if they’re, like, really wanting to gatekeep you, then they’re not going to refer you unless, like, you specifically ask. Right? So there’s that element, right, where, like, you could definitely send out that email or a version of that email that I shared, like, at the conclusion of a project.
So, like, they know you have the bandwidth. Right? And you could also reassure them in that email. Right?
Like, you’re fully available and committed to the projects that you have laid out. Right?
So that’s option one. Option number two is to just be less reliant on it and really focus on tier two. Like, tier two, even when tier one is done super well, like, tier two is the one where most of my referrals have come from.
So, yeah, I didn’t yeah. I wouldn’t focus too much on a solve for that problem and just see where the opportunity is for easier wins, I guess. And I think the easiest one is just, like, yeah, highlight those three to five people on each project or even two to three depending on, like, who you resonate with. Like, I’m not encouraging you to build relationships with people, like, you just wouldn’t wanna chat with outside of that project.
Yeah. There should be two to three on every project, at least, I would say.
Mhmm. And, yeah, just focus on that one.
Yep. Cool. Thanks, Ryan.
Cool. My pleasure.
Yeah. I think this is, I know that this has been true for I I haven’t worked with a lot of teams as a freelancer because a lot of the clients I work with are very small start ups at the moment.
But I have reached out to a lot of my old colleagues because I worked with a lot. It was, like, embedded in a lot of acquisition teams.
So I will reach out to a lot of my old colleagues because all of them have moved on to new companies Right.
And just ask them if they need help. And most of them have said yes. So that’s sort of been a a version of that.
Yep.
That has definitely been and, also, like, I already have that well established relationship because we work together, so they already know me. We’ve already done plenty of coffee chats, already have their phone number. So it’s easy to reach out and be like, oh, hey.
If you ever need any help, I’m here.
Cool. Has that been a source of referrals for you?
Yeah. For sure. Actually, I also got two clients from interviews where they didn’t hire me. And then I reached out to them, and I was like, you should hire me as if like, they were I was interviewing for a different position, and they didn’t give me the position because it was, like, more of a campaign manager or product marketing manager.
And it it was fine. Like, it also would not have been a good fit.
But then either they reached out to me or I reached out to them. And so now that’s true for, like, two or three different companies that they’re my long standing clients now.
Mhmm.
So I think that have definitely helped.
Yeah. That’s awesome.
When you say that, like, you don’t typically work with teams, like, who’s the one who’s typically, like, implementing your work either from, like, a design standpoint or a development standpoint or, yeah, any of those?
Well, I guess I guess I’m working Usually, I’m just working with one person. Usually, it’s like a very small marketing team, like two or three people because, let me tell you, marketing teams just do not have the budget for extra people.
So if they’re a series a, series b, like, they are barely scraping by.
They do not have any budget for media buying. And, like, ideally, I’d like to move into slightly larger companies, ideally outside of Israel where they have more money at the moment.
Mhmm.
But for them, it’s usually, like, one person. Or Mhmm. They have, like, onboarded me, and it’s a retainer, and I’m implementing.
Right. Right.
Myself.
I do have one new client that’s a little bit larger. Mhmm.
And the, like, campaign manager I think they call them, like, life cycle managers. Mhmm. This is more B2C oriented.
They’ll reach out to me, and I’ll just send it to them in a Google Doc.
Cool.
But, yeah, hopefully, as I start working with more companies that are more similar to the companies I used to work with when I was in house, then I can implement those same strategies, but it has been useful for me.
Awesome.
Nonetheless.
Got it. Cool. Yep.
Do you ever send a thank you gift as a token of you know, like, something as a token?
I have. Yeah. To clients you’re talking about specifically. Right?
To client or any I guess, anybody who refers you and lead, you know, results in business.
Yeah.
The short answer is, like, yes.
And it’s not, like, an automatic process where, like, you know, as soon as this referral is done, I contact my VA, and they have this specific list of gifts to order and send. Like, no. It’s, like, totally scrappy, like, as I feel inspired and as I feel, like, genuinely grateful.
And, like like, I’ve dropped the ball on that many times. Like, I’ll admit that. Right? Where it’s just like, you intend to, you want to, but it’s a crazy week, and then it’s two weeks later and you feel like it’s too late, but then you feel really awkward about it. And, like, like, I’ve been there.
But, yeah, like, gifting has definitely been part of it. I’ve definitely sent gifts to members of the team. Right?
Like project integrators, project managers in particular, because I noticed that they’re typically the ones who drive that decision to bring you on to the next project, the next project.
And they’re typically the ones that I’ve worked most closely with. Right? Not necessarily the CEO or the founder.
So, yeah, I’ve definitely enjoyed, like, surprising members of the team with gifts because they just don’t expect it, and it’s fun. It’s cool to gift.
So in that in that scenario, are you just sending a gift as a thank you after the project wraps? You’re like, it’s really great working with you. Here’s a little delightful surprise.
Yes. Totally. So there used to be, like, gifting apps that I used. I can’t remember all of them, but, like, they were really easy to, like, send and have them redeemed.
Mhmm.
Like, physical mail, like, I’ve sent that to you, but I live in Canada. Most of my clients are in the US, and it would take, like, a few extra weeks, which which is fine. Right? It gets it gets there when it gets there.
Like, when it comes to, like there’s a great book on gifting. I can’t remember what it was called, but, like, there are a few things that does that does anyone remember, like, a book on gifting?
No. That seems really weird to me.
Because it’s such a weird thing.
But, like I mean, like, give someone that as a gift just to, like, mess with them.
Right. A book on gifting? Oh gosh. I don’t know how I’d receive that. If I was gifted a book on gifting yeah. It’d probably be the end of the friendship. I’d be like, I don’t know what to do with this.
Yeah.
But what was it? Anyway, like, I think the point that I was trying to make was the gifts that I would send would just be, like, inspired by a conversation I had with the person. Right? Like, an interest I know they have.
Right? Or just something I know about them that I picked up from working together. So, like, those were the was the ones I’d, like, I felt most inspired to give versus, like I don’t know. Like, what’s a typical client gift?
Like yeah.
Like You’re not doing, like oh, sorry.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Another gift that, like, really landed well, like and, like, I just did it because I was inspired, like, spur at the moment, was like, I knew where my client lived. Right? And I just, like, booked them a massage, like, fifteen to a spa, like, twenty minutes from their house. Right? Like, stressful launch vibes and, like, you know, treat yourself after this. Like, I’ve treated my client and their local team to dinner. Like, that was a bit of an expensive gift, but it was, like, one of those, like, higher ticket launches I helped with.
So, yeah, things that, like, don’t just get tucked away but actually have a lot of meaning and a lot of value, in the relationship that also feel really good to gift are things that I would do. And I wish in retrospect that I was, like, more consistent with it and didn’t let my own, like, overwhelm and stress, like, get in the way of me actually doing it consistently and doing it well.
Yeah.
I don’t know if this will help, but I did had a really, really good find for a gift.
And this kind of only worked for me because all of my clients are local, and I was able to drop it off. But I found a local baker that makes macaroons, and I had her make macaroons in my colors, in my brand colors. Oh. And then they would, like, be boxed well, different size boxes, but there would be a few with logos. She, like, took a piece of fondant and printed my logo on it. Mhmm.
And they were, like, homemade.
It was, like, somebody working out of their house.
Everyone loved it. The macaroons were really delicious. They were local. They were fresh.
So I don’t know if, like, maybe you can find somebody near them, but it was a huge hit as opposed to, like, giving somebody a water bottle or a notebook that they’re never gonna use again.
Right. Right.
Okay. So this is I mean but it sounds like you don’t have a these are, like, thank you gifts to show appreciation after you’ve worked with them. You don’t have a systematized kickback system for people who refer.
I don’t.
No. No.
I did do that, like, a couple times.
Just, I feel like maybe it would depend on the situation. Like, I, yeah, I did that a couple times with, with clients who referred me Mhmm. Because I felt like they were taking a chance or, like, sticking their neck me, and I was really grateful for the new type of work. But, yeah, I don’t haven’t, made it a systematized thing, like a standard practice.
I was curious though if you did.
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like amazing if you can. Right? Like and we can only do so many things and systematize so many things.
Right? So, like, it’s one of those things where, like, looking back, I’m like, yeah. I wish I did that. Right?
And I didn’t. Right? For whatever reason. Right? Like, overwhelm, enough on my plate, stress, like, doing too many things, like, all at once. But, yeah, I think if you can find a way to do it, like, it’s definitely gonna help you more than not. So yeah.
Mhmm. Cool. Cool. Anything else on this topic, or should we dive into some copy?
Sweet. Seems like we’re going complete on that.
Naomi, did you wanna share something?
I also I have a question that I would love if you could or, Anantra, I’d love if you could help me out with.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
If nobody’s back. No. You can go. You can go.
Oh, I didn’t realize I was on mute. Sorry. I was trying to bring up the file, but go ahead if you wanna ask.
Okay. It’s hopefully a quickish one.
So I worked I worked on a launch in January.
It was a it was a good launch, and then we ever grow in-depth. So I set up a day on every funnel, and I thought it was converting really well. But it turns out, like, most of, like, ninety percent of the sales are actually coming just from ads to sales page.
Mhmm.
So, yeah, I’m, like, optimizing the webinar funnel, but I’m kind of like, is the best way to optimize it just to be like, let’s just run ads in sales page. It’s performing so much better. Like, the webinar funnels, I think, converting at, like, two percent. And then for the ads, it’s, like, twenty four dollars for a twelve hundred dollar sale.
But I, like, I don’t wanna do that because it kind of like, I don’t wanna, like, admit that my system isn’t working as well as just a sales page. And I’m confused as to, like, why that would be happening. Like, why would a sales page alone convert better than a webinar and emails?
Right.
Any thoughts going on?
What what’s the product, and what’s the price point?
It’s a bookkeeping course, and it’s twelve hundred dollars.
Bookkeeping course for twelve hundred dollars, and it’s converting better ad to sales page at twelve hundred dollars?
Yeah. Weird. Right?
Yeah. It’s a little surprising.
Like, how how like, is it close? Like, I missed some of those metrics you just shared.
Like No.
It’s not close. It’s like so, basically, I set up the webinar funnel, and then I wrote retargeting ads to with the to go to people that have clicked on the sales page. But the ads strategy is kind of messed up, and the retargeting ads just went to everyone. But then they were performing so well, like, twenty four dollars per sale sale. That the media buyer was like, let’s just leave them on. Yeah.
And, like, they’re absolutely sure, like, that’s all cold audience?
Or they’re I I they haven’t been through the webinar funnel.
Then they might not be completely cold. There is a mix of warm and cold, but they haven’t watched the webinar.
Mhmm. So what, like, what warm ish audiences might be mixed in there, I guess, is what I’m asking.
Like As just people that have bought other products, been on the site.
Like, they have a very loyal audience.
Yeah. I mean, it would make sense if, like, a warm audience is getting directed straight to the sales page versus a cold audience going through the webinar funnel. Right? So, like, that could have something to do with it if they bought something before, if they’re familiar with her.
Like, if they’re already bought on the idea of, like, her her process and the goal, right, like, of doing that thing, then, yeah, straight to sales page to that audience who’s already aware of her and, you know, even, like, product aware or solution aware. Like, that will convert more than the webinar funnel to cold. Right? So it’s like I think it’s less about the funnel and more that the webinar funnel was going all to cold, and you’re measuring that against these retargeting ads that were going out to a mix of warm and cold without knowing exactly what that ratio is.
Like, my guess would be there’s more warm within that ad set than cold. Like, that would be my guess. And it’s like pure like, I just don’t see a reality where those are all cold cold, like, having never heard of her before.
Yeah. That’s such a good point. I mean, I did see that some of them had watched the live webinar in January as well. So Yeah. Okay. So I should just focus on optimizing the webinar, like, under with reason to believe it’s for to a college audience.
And then I would say so.
Right? Like like, I know it’s a tough argument to make with, you know, the media buyer and even the client. Right? If they see, like, the return on the ad spend or that set that’s going straight to the sales page.
I think the argument I’d make, right, is, like, if we don’t know how much of that is already warm and maybe you can find that out. Right? Like, you def definitely, like, check-in on those buyers if they’re on the CRM and see their history. Yeah. Right? Like, to some degree. Like, I would really be curious how much of those are, like, cold, cold, and that was their very first interaction with the brand.
Yeah. But alt but, ultimately, like, at some point, you’re going to run out of a warm audience unless you have the funnel to convert cold. Right? So, I’d keep them both even if, like, one looks like it’s way over performing outperforming the other one right now. I think just a lack of clarity of how many of those are truly new leads.
Yeah. If if it’s not all new leads, you definitely need a funnel for cold leads to warm them up. So, yeah, I’d kinda, like, leave with that as the main argument.
But it is weird. Yeah. And, like yeah. I just don’t really see a reality where, like, with both audiences being equal, like, the cold to a twelve hundred dollar product would way outperform, like, the webinar funnel.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. It’s it’s annoying because I I saw, like, they made, like, eighty thousand, and I was like, yay. They won Evergreen.
And then I was like, what?
Mhmm. So disappointing.
But, yeah. No. That makes sense. I didn’t even think about whether it’d be warm or cold traffic. So, yeah, I’ll leave them both on and just keep optimizing and hope that the conversion rate goes up.
Yeah.
Cool. Cheers.
Okay. So this is the company that I interviewed for last year, and it was sort of like a campaign manager position. And I kept giving them good ideas for copy, And they kept asking me about how I would manage the campaign. So I think I’m getting that job.
But they came back to me recently, and hired me anyways. Cool. So the original the good version is I, I I didn’t see their entire brief, so I just wrote it the way I wanted to write it. Okay.
So I introduced I I included a lot of interesting sparkly details that I got from some of the articles on the current state of the insurance home insurance business.
Yep.
And the second one is the, set of emails I recently wrote, that’s more that it hears a little bit more closely to their, guidelines that I think is kinda boring, but I’m not really sure how to improve it. So thought I would Got it. Show both of those.
Perfect.
So it’s the same one. I just did a longer and a shorter version.
Got it. Alright.
So they’re comparing home insurance premiums or comparing home insurance rates with this tool.
Yep. Sweet. Has and this hasn’t run yet?
Or it They they said I didn’t actually see the brief that they sent.
It was, like, on the second page, and I missed it. So this Okay. Was never sent to anyone, but I included it just as, like, comparison. Like, this is what I would write if I had no restrictions. And then the second one is, like, more close to their brand guidelines, but I think it’s really dull and really boring, But they keep going to be shorter and tighter. But Right.
Got it.
I’m not really sure what to do. So you just see, this one is a little bit more story oriented.
It’s a little bit draws you a little bit more.
Yep. Exactly. I have reference points for these.
And just for the record, she did say she liked she did say that she liked it. Mhmm. This wasn’t according to their brand voice.
Mhmm. This one wasn’t according to their brand voice.
Yeah.
And, like, based primarily on, like, this section here?
Yeah. Their brand voice is a little bit more enthusiastic.
I got it. Yeah.
Short to the point. Mhmm. Look at the ones on the second tab that I wrote today.
Yep.
You’ll see that there’s hints of that of those kind of stories from the first one, but it’s a lot more watered down. It’s a lot more to the point. Right.
I don’t really feel like I’m doing anything.
I feel like I’m just, like, taking everything that they say and making sure that it’s readable and putting everything down on a page.
So these are people who, submitted for a quote on an online form and then can follow through with it, essentially?
They got a quote or two, and then they went through the flow, and then they churned.
And they’re trying to get them to talk to an agent Got it.
Cool.
To either go through it or to potentially add coverage for other insurance items.
Yep. Cool. I like the subject line because that really warrants us in that context.
Yeah. All three of these, actually.
If you like many.
Maybe you have this information, maybe you don’t. Like, what is the main driver or motivating factor for people submitting a quote? Is it, like, that they already have home insurance, but it’s up for renewal and got a price hike?
Is that correct?
So that’s what they sent me some news articles. Apparently, home insurance rates are skyrocketing all across the country, and there’s more and more claims. Some insurance companies have to raise their rates.
Right.
So I figured I would bring that piece of relevant news, to to the table. And Yeah. A lot of people feel like prices have gone up.
Yep.
So it can feel like every turn brings another price hike. I think, like, if you were to ground this in specificity, there might even be an opportunity to, like, in brackets, like, underneath it saying, like, you know, maybe you’re up for renewal and, you know, essentially, you know, your home insurance company reward your loyalty with a twenty percent plus hike. Right? Like, that is typically the reason I think like, I’m not an insurance industry expert, but, typically, it’s like, you know, you get kind of, like, the renewal notice. They raise your rate even though you didn’t, like, claim anything, and you’re like, bastards. I’m gonna get them by switching to someone else. So maybe you could capture some of that here or at least mirror that back.
That’s why I definitely don’t want to let a recent quote or address get lost in your inbox. Hippo has teamed up with forty plus trusted carriers. You got the perfect number of your company at a reasonable price.
So I mean, it’s like the languaging is fair.
Like, I almost, like, glaze over reasonable price. Like, it doesn’t feel it it feels like what an insurance company would say, and maybe, like, they have to say it that way. Right? But it’s like, how could that be kind of upgraded?
Reasonable? Like, what? Are people, like, are people looking for reasonable, or are they looking for fair, or are they looking for better?
Like I think there’s a lot of indignant at the fact that insurance prices are are skyrocketing, and this is especially true in California where I think a lot of differences.
And so I was trying to capture that sense of indigence.
Mhmm. Awesome.
I have a question. Do you mention forty plus trusted carriers to, point out the fact that that, they’re gonna get the best rate because you have so many to choose from.
Yeah. Yeah.
That was one of the requirements that they asked me to include.
So it’s it’s like comparing different rates, essentially. Mhmm. They have, like, a couple of different solutions that they offer.
Mhmm.
So one thing you may consider adding here is, like, a reasonable price without having to, you know, submit for dozens of quotes and getting overwhelmed in the process. Right? Because, like, if they’re churning, it’s and if they submitted a quote to this company, chances are they’ve been submitting quotes, and they’ve been getting retargeted, like or targeted on Facebook from, from, like, every other insurance company. That’s typically what happens when, like like, I I submitted a quote.
I, like, changed my car insurance, like, a few weeks ago. And, like, every other car insurance company, Facebook feed right now. Right? So, like, that could be a reason they’re turning, and you could just kind of, like, include that here without having to, you know, submit quotes to every company that hits your feed, right, or whatever.
So that could be an anti churn strategy or preempting that, or addressing the reason why they might be.
But yeah. Otherwise, that’s good.
This is Yeah.
These ones are all different.
Yep.
So the second one is they want they want them to add earthquake coverage or other coverage, but specifically earthquakes for California, and the third one is there are several different kinds. So the third one, I was able to include a little bit of a a story.
Okay.
That one, I thought, was probably the best even though that was a watered down version. Yeah. That one.
This one here. Yep.
Yeah. It was a little bit longer at first, but cut it down. Mhmm. Because I can like, that’s the other thing that I hear over and over and over again.
They always tell me, Naomi, this is too negative. This is this is not our brand language. We don’t wanna scare people. We don’t wanna get people down.
That’s not gonna make people convert. I’ve heard that at least a hundred thousand times. And so the kind of material that makes really good stories is the kind of copy that always get cut always gets cut for me.
Right.
Yeah. It’s it’s interesting. I don’t have the research to, like, really inform this. Right? But, like, is there is there is the customer’s, like, main driver here just, like, to get the best price and move on?
Right? Or is it features of the protection and really making sure that they’re protected and feel secure? Right? And, like, I don’t know which one of those weighs in more of the more inside the head of, like, your specific client.
Like, if it’s really just about, like, price, right, like, reasonable price amidst all these, like, skyrocketing things, then I agree. Right? Like, the story should be more about, like, feeling, like like, this is fair and reasonable and that their budget isn’t under attack, and now they still have enough income, right, to focus on the things they really wanna, like, focus on. Right?
Like, no one wants to pay for insurance. Right? And, like, I think just having that acknowledgment is helpful. Right?
Like, if they are primarily concerned about price versus all the details of protection. So I think, like, that’s a really important question for the client. Like, it’s, like, what’s the main driver? So, like, the types of protection, the level of protection, and feeling the trust in the protection, or is it best price and move on and forget about it?
Like, what is driving that buying decision?
I think for these second two emails, it’s that you may not get as much flood or earthquake insurance just to realize because those are not usually covered under specific under Yeah.
Home coverage plan.
Yep. Got it.
I don’t think you’re being too negative. Like, I think, like, you’re mentioning what it does, right, the features of the product, and that’s what they’re getting insurance for. So they the feedback on this one was too negative?
No. No.
I’m just saying that’s what I’ve been doing a thousand times.
Got it. Got it.
The things that I don’t see as negatives. So it has to be short. It has to be positive. It has to be enthusiastic, but I still wanna make it interesting. So Yep.
Yeah. Trying to look for ways to help it come through.
Yeah. Have they been, like, specific in terms of, like, what short means to them?
The last time I got a, like, a a template of what they had in their last email Mhmm.
And so that was helpful. But I would say that, like, this is probably the limit to the number of words. Like, a hundred and fifty words for the email would probably be pushing it.
Mhmm. Got it.
Like, I don’t wanna harp on, like, oh my gosh. What’s gonna happen if you don’t get all of this coverage?
There’s gonna be a flood that destroys your house, and Yeah.
We’ll be able to pay for your grandmother’s retirement home. And if you get sick, like you know? Mhmm.
Oh, totally. Yeah.
Like, you can go really far with this, and I don’t wanna Yeah.
No. I I I agree. Right? Like, those stories probably will just kinda repel more than yeah.
They’re difficult to read. Like, that’s the thing. Right? Like, no one even wants wants to, like, visualize those realities, or, like, the word pictures that, like, come to mind, like, when you read over it.
But, yeah, you’re talking about these things specifically. It protects you in your yeah. I mean, generally, like, I agree with that, like, general orientation, right, on the lighter side, on the shorter side, and more focused on, like, the immediate benefit that they’re doing this for, right, which is peace of mind or price. Right?
And, like, what that means and how that appears. Right? Like, feel like this is done, you’re covered, and you can just enjoy your life. Right?
So, yeah, like, that’s really the extent of it. I think, like, these are generally good. I think that there might be opportunity that I use I use the word might. It’s not a hard recommend. But, like, just languaging that mirrors back why they may have churned, right, and to essentially reflect that proximity to the solution, right, so that they don’t need to be in this, like, weeks long process of spending hours on the phone with other providers. I think that connects to your feature of, like, forty plus trusted carriers.
Is, like, your partner there so that they don’t need to have endless conversations, you know, price shopping. Right? You know, like, you can even have a subject line like price shopping question mark. Right? And an email that just focuses on, like, you’re already in touch with forty plus carriers. Right? And you’re gonna get them that best price and save them dozens of hours of just, like, nonstop calls.
So Okay.
Yeah. But generally, good stuff. Yeah.
I see you have a few different, like, call to action options as well. Has that been, like, tested or something that your client wants to test?
Well, it’s a it’s a different it’s a different action.
Right.
We wanted them to just get the quote.
That’s when we wanted them to actually talk to somebody because they already got the quote.
Got it.
Data flows.
Cool.
Alright. Thank you. This is actually Great. This is helpful.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Cool. Cool. Any final notes or questions before we wrap, or is everyone good for today?
Guess we’re good.
Cool. Thanks all. Have an awesome rest of the week.
Bye.
Bye.