To know what do you think is the best thing to offer as, a service to be involved? Because they’ll be using my branding throughout their campaign and stuff like that. Or is it not worth doing it?

Oh, it’s worth I I would say when you’re starting out, I say this to everybody, say yes to freaking everything. You’ll figure it out. It’s this is the tax that entrepreneurs pay. We have to say yes to everything out of the gate.

It’s exhausting. We go back and go, like, did that even lead to anything? And then three years later, you go, like, oh. Some things just take longer to harvest.

Okay. That’s fine. Not everything grows overnight.

So yes to doing it, I would say. I would say knowing what you’ve shared. Yes. It doesn’t sound like a bad idea. It will take some time. Yeah. Can you do anything so is it that everybody who attends is it like a raffle to get your services or something, or how or is it like a No.

It’s it’s literally helping them my service was would be to help them promote the houses that are being sold.

Okay.

And then Promote the houses that are being sold for charity. Correct. Okay. Cool.

Okay. So treat it like a proper client.

Treat it like your best client. And how do you all it says, like, no matter what ask them what the what’s the most high value thing? What’s the where’s the biggest challenge usually for them? Like, really interview the person that you’re going to be working with on writing this stuff to get a really strong sense for where you can have the most value such that you can share that and see that there are real wins there.

All you’re doing here, and I teach this in ten x FC, is, like, every job you have is not to make money. It’s to get to that next job, get more jobs. Yes. You should make money.

You do not give it away, but that’s not the point. That’s the illusion that it’s here for money. No. No.

No. What you wanna do is how do I find the thing that’s so high value for them? It might be the sales page. Right?

It might be like, I’ll write your sales page for you, and it should be because that’s closely tied to value, and it’s what you sell.

But make sure you’re going into this building your services out here in such a way that like, what can you do to open curiosity among?

I don’t know what it is. I don’t I don’t know. But I would hire myself if I were you. How do I make sure that I turn this work that I’m going to do into five clients?

That’s my objective. How am I going to get so that means I need probably twenty leads out of it. What do I need to do to make that happen? And get real about it.

What’s the hard thing to do? What’s the easy thing to do? Do the hard thing. Definitely, obviously, do the easy thing.

But if the hard thing is I have to negotiate with this person upfront that with the person that you’re doing the work for, that my name is going to appear and my QR code is going to appear. And I’m gonna need to have a funnel that that gets people through it. I don’t know. Right?

You need to think through that, hire yourself to strategically think through how do I get twenty good leads out of this. Does that make sense? Give yourself a number. Make sure you treat it like this is a marketing campaign for you.

This is not free work. This isn’t pro bono work. This is marketing. So how do you turn it into a campaign?

And, like, have fun with it. That can sound like, I need a whole funnel. Now you get a whole funnel where twenty people could go into it, and you could come out with twenty clients on the other side. Let’s say five to be, like, chill about it, but you could end up with massive things.

So that’s, again, the work. And I’ll probably take you into after hours doing this sort of thinking. Right? It’ll be like a Saturday afternoon where you sit down, close everything down, and put out a piece of paper and write down what are the many ways like, dream it up.

What are the many ways that I could actually get leads out of this?

And then start, like, listing those different dream ideas and then turn it into something that’s like a plan. Like, this is doable, but make sure hard things are on that plan. Make sure they are. Not only because they’ll pay off, but they’ll pay off in terms of now you’ve done that hard thing.

Now it’s the new baseline, and that’s how we, like, keep growing. Right? As entrepreneurs, that’s going up and introducing yourself to somebody like you’re the best person in the room. First time you do that, it’s practice.

You’ll suck at it, and that’s fine. But at least you got some practice, and then you can, like, keep trying and keep going back. And that’s the same thing here. Do something very, very hard and uncomfortable to get twenty leads out of this.

I know I’m being more, like, coachy than specific, but I don’t know what the thing is. You will know what the thing is when you hire yourself, sit down, and do it.

It it for me, to me, it’s almost like I I wanna do a sales page for them because I haven’t done many before, and this is the avenue I’m going down.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It just will depend on what their time frames are and and everything like that. So Yeah. But, no, that’s that’s awesome advice.

You should do a sales page. And I would say that the way to be really successful as the sales page person is you know, there’s, like, a negative saying around when you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I that’s negative. Right? That’s, like, the hell yeah. Oh, really? Oh, there’s, like, a okay. And it’s in my head right now because there’s, like, a sculpture that’s very literal here that’s, like, a body with a hammerhead, and I’m like, calm down.

But, like, what I would say is you should, as a sales page expert, everything that you see, you should default to this can be solved by a sales page. You won’t be right. But at least you’ll start saying, oh, no. That actually I can’t.

And then you’ll know that. Right? But you need to go into the world that you’re in believing that a sales page is the answer to everything. So your starting point for all of this should be, well, obviously, we’re all gonna need sales pages around here, aren’t we?

So I think that’s good. At least start with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Awesome.

Thank you. Cool.

Fun. Thanks, Amanda.

So these are could be combined. I’m not really sure, but I need to create a lead magnet. And I also kind of had this I was looking ahead a little bit at your, everything you shared today about the retainer, and I got to the part where you and I have had many conversations about looking at minutes as money as well. Mhmm.

And, and so I guess I’m in this kind of place where I know I need to quadruple down on all authority building and all sorts of things. And when you don’t have enough money, then you have to invest the time. But when you have maybe some money, you could invest. And I’m in one of those conundrums where I’m like, okay.

I know I do need a lead magnet.

I know I have some money, but I’m not sure where to spend my time and where to maybe invest a little bit of the money. And Okay. So I was just kind of hoping for a little bit of help, and I just thought for a round number. Like, if you had to if you had maybe a thousand to two thousand dollars to play with lead gen or something, and, obviously, the result you want is maybe double your money or maybe one point two or I don’t care. Whatever the make some profit off of it. What would you say in terms of spending the money versus spending the time?

It’s tricky because the best place to spend your time is on things that are directly tied to money coming in.

So that’s great. And that’s but that’s true for anybody you hire as well. That should also be directly tied to that.

And that’s where you’d spend money. I’d spend money on people, likely, on the right person, to do a thing. And it’s really a question of what the thing is.

If it’s a thing that you can do easily yourself and you are happy to do yourself and it’s not tied to money, I think that’s where a lot of people tend to.

It’s it’s such a big question.

I know.

I’m sorry. You’re trying no. No. No. It’s good. Like, we can work through it together. Like, what do you have in mind?

Where were you thinking of putting it?

Okay. Well, I could hire someone to create the lead magnet itself, although I’ve created lead magnets.

Itself, although I’ve created lead magnets very quickly with AI and myself. So and I don’t mind doing it. I actually have a lot of fun. So that’s I could do that, but I think the so then the other thought I had was someone repurposing.

Like, I love getting on video and doing stuff, but then I was like, do I pay someone to repurpose all the social? But that’s not I don’t know. Unless until you started talking about the many chats and things like that, that didn’t feel direct enough to true lead gen.

So I I genuinely don’t know. I really don’t.

It’s tough with thought leadership because it’s so much of it depends on you. Right? And if a lead magnet does feel like the natural thing, but, like you said, you can do these things yourself, and you know how, and you like it. And, honestly, how detailed does like, how much time does it need to take?

As in, could you create a really good lead magnet on your phone right now if you just made notes about, like, three really cool points to hit, and then you just recorded it. That would be probably great. Right? Like, people would be able to consume it.

You could share it all over the place. You could cut it up everywhere.

So thought leadership’s a tricky one to outsource.

Where are you Well, and if you have other ideas, it doesn’t have to be the authority thing either.

I just I think the bigger thing for me is where can I start really how could I make a little bit money of money off of that so I could keep investing and eventually grow that, you know, investment into help or whatever it looks like? I don’t know.

Where are you growing right now the most?

Oh, DMs, apparently. Although that’s not because of a strategy.

That’s honestly, all no. Honestly, I’m seeing a very strange I was gonna ask you if you had done something because I got all of a sudden several people from copy hackers. Like, someone I didn’t even know in the copy hackers community referred me to someone that they whatever. I got a former copy hackers review person that I used to review all of his copy and reviews. Do you remember that?

One of those people for those people.

And then another one of those people reached out. So I don’t know. It’s frankly from work I did with you all several years ago that I Yay.

So, I mean, I thank you, number one. But, like You did it.

Yeah. No. You did it. Well done.

The thing is that’s like, okay. We’re we’re talking there, as you know, about planting a seed years ago, and now it’s harvest time for that, which is cool. That’s great.

You’re saying how can I buy a plant that’s already grown to that level, plant it immediately, and then reap benefits from that too, which is a very fair question?

It’s reasonable.

It’s just when I’m thinking about, like, the areas where you can grow I’m glad we have a lot of time in this call. Because does anybody have any thoughts on this?

I mean, look. I’ve done ads before, so I I know how to take your whole to spend.

You wanna make it sorry. Go ahead, Jessica.

No. I’ve just I’ve I’ve, my reaction wasn’t to you, what you were saying. It was just my I’ve done ad funnels before, and I can do them. But I don’t that’s not really my long game. And so it feels like you spend so much upfront with ads to learn so that you could dial them in. And so then it’s like, well, if I don’t really want that to be a huge part of my business or a huge focus, that feels like short term thinking, and I don’t I don’t wanna do that either.

I’m wondering about, like I really can. So the best so what you’ve said so far is source referral sources are bringing in a lot for you right now.

I would wonder, is there a sponsorship that you can a good one, if you’re willing to experiment with the two thousand dollars? If you’re like, I want it to grow, but I know that there’s no sure thing except in the world of ads, and then you need to start with, like, twenty thousand and go up to a hundred be, like, really ready to scale that. Right?

So to me, I feel like I don’t want you to waste, but can you spread that out over if you can find four influential people, pay them five hundred bucks a piece on Instagram or LinkedIn or what feels right to you and get them to say something about you to their audience. You’d still have to put in the time to figure out what you want to do, but that could be.

If referrals are what’s driving things right now it’s really, really tough. I’m gonna think about it. I would Okay. I would explore four people, five hundred bucks to tell their audience about you. Can you find any, like, micro influencers in ecommerce?

Yeah. Okay. I can look into it.

So Could be sponsoring a newsletter.

Okay.

These are not typically good, though.

So that’s the trick. It’s not like sponsor a newsletter, get money, although you could. Like, it can happen. It’s just not a sure thing. Right. And I know so little is, but I would start down that path.

Okay. Doesn’t mean it’s right now.

Okay.

Now I’m gonna be thinking about this all day.

Alright. Alright. Alright. Thank you. I think yep. That’s all of them.

That brings me to the lead magnet task, which has always been this piece for me that I’m like I don’t know. I so I’ve gone through, and I’m like, okay. Well, I went back to our, value ladder framework that you taught way back when. And I guess what I’m kind of struggling with is, one, some of the ideas I’m like, well, which one should really be the tripwire versus the lead magnet?

Because I don’t know. Some I don’t know. I could see one yeah. So there’s that question.

And then, also, I kinda start thinking about, well, what’s the like, what do I tack on to this for this speech, for example, that I’m talking about how to turn discount buyers into full price loyal buyers, particularly after a seasonal or holiday sale. Like, what would I add on to that that I’m not speaking about per se in the speech itself? Or, you know, I don’t know. I’ve just again, as per usual, overthinking everything and hoping you can give me some clarity.

It’s good.

Nope. That’s good. Tripwire versus lead magnet. So what is the lead magnet? What’s the idea? So we can understand if it is a tripwire or not.

Okay. Well so mind you, I was brainstorming before I heard about the speech part, so it’s not I was thinking a lot the speaking gig is actually when I wrote it, I didn’t include seasonal or holiday sale in it. I just said discount buyers, which Okay. Still applies, but just still. So, anyway, so, like, lead magnet ideas, I I had something, either a guide or I mean, this could be in any form. Right? But and a guide to converting seasonal shoppers into loyal customers, but that’s very broad.

Or something a video series on maximizing post purchase engagement or, giving a, like, a template essentially for analyzing your seasonal campaign. I mean, there’s just all these things in my mind.

Template?

Yay.

Yay to template, not the course. Wait. Did you say course? The third second one was, like, a course or something?

Like, a video series or something.

So what you want the lead magnet to do is wake people up to the problem, open the loop that only hiring you can close. Okay. So if it’s that’s also the problem with template then.

If you want them to hire you, then they can’t do it unless what you’re proving is, woah. This is too hard to do by myself. I’m just gonna hire you to do it, which is what books are for. So I’ll teach you how much I know. You’ll think I can do it. You won’t be able to do it, and you’ll hire me to do it.

But that’s also okay. So what I would encourage you to do when thinking about your lead magnet is if we wanna make the easiest lead magnet for a good fit prospect. What is the think about the think about a prospect that you’ve worked with on it doesn’t have to be directly tied to seasonal either. Anything where you’ve had an ecommerce person come along and say, I need your help.

What’s one of the steps early on that you could turn into a lead magnet?

So what is one of the steps? So think through. When you first start working with them, what are so they’ve signed on as a client. They’re not a lead anymore. They’re a client. What’s the thing that you talk them through or share with them or ask them early in the experience?

I don’t know if this is right. This was just when you said that this is the first thing that came to mind that we talk about is what is we usually land on, like, a flow or something that is getting a lot of traffic getting a lot of people through and is is just not getting the conversions.

That’s usually one that we talk about a lot.

Is it typically the same flow?

Can you say, yeah. It’s their abandoned cart or whatever. Do you know what it is?

No. I can’t say that I’ve ever identified for sure. But, again, I mean, I’ve my ecommerce experience is a handful of clients with a lot of volume.

Yeah.

But I’m not sure I could I mean, sure.

Yeah.

What’s the diagnostic you’d be doing? Win back, I would say. If I had to go to anything it’d be either welcome or win back because if if they didn’t do a good enough job in the welcome and it’s, like, that finicky fire, then they end up in the win back, which then isn’t is a struggle. But Right. That actually started with the problem at the welcome.

So So you wanna get to a place where you, all we’re searching for is in the process of working with you, there are going to be a lot of moments for people.

There’s a lot of, like, great stuff that’s thinking, asking questions, showing examples of things. So I’m suggesting that you look at existing things you already have that, like, wow people.

And it doesn’t have to wow the world, but it has to be like, oh, wow, for your ideal prospect.

So we’d explored the win back versus welcome thing. I don’t know what you can do with that. Maybe you’ll find something there.

What if you wanna wake people up to the problem I’m wondering about your diagnostic. I do wonder if, oh, a video walking you them through how to diagnose their problem if that wouldn’t be did you do your diagnostic in CSP?

I did do I did. K. But as I’ve been going back and forth through the standard projects and retainers, it’s kind of evolved a lot, and I’m not sure that I have a for sure one that I have one for my email for sure, like, email stuff. But when I start bringing into the seasonal, that’s where I kind of have not figured out my diagnostic for sure. I’m sorry. I’m trying to look for it from you in my big binder of your stuff.

Your stuff.

Okay. I would say if you are trying to wake your good fit leads up to the problem, then this can be content. Your diagnostic can be content, but it can also be your lead magnet. The thing that you show them that’s like, here’s how to think through it.

And they’re watching you think out loud on the page. You’re drawing things. You’re asking questions. You’re saying this is what people need to think about at this point.

This is why you’re getting it wrong.

Zoom in on that. I would hypothesize that by the time you are done, your talk that you’re going to give and every time you’re doing like, if you set up ManyChat with, like, a whatever your keyword is that strikes this automation that delivers this lead magnet, You’ll have an easier time getting the right fit interested if you show your model. Like, models sell to businesses. So if you have that model, you can say this is the pyramid, this is the triangle, this is the circle, whatever the model looks like, then that’s I would say this is a long ance this long path to get to a very short answer. Your lead magnet exists already.

You just have to find it. So you don’t have to go make it.

Find it in what you have. Maybe that’s doing an audit of what you’ve got, but it’s already there. You’re already sharing it with clients and leads. You’re already thinking through it.

You just have to find it and package it.

So so if the question is, which of these should I use for my lead magnet, then let’s dig into so you had calculator for PPC campaigns. You have an ebook for PPC landing pages that convert, which you could turn into a checklist.

And you have a blog on your website that’s getting good traffic, and it’s regarding the calculator. I assume on your blog or on your website, you have, like, a email address collection spot?

I do.

Although, the only email that’s been collected besides mine is somebody random in Tokyo. So hasn’t been hasn’t been the most effective source of belief. But as of today, it is functioning and Okay. Connected to everything.

So Okay.

Good.

Good. So if the blog post is getting good traffic, then definitely make sure that you have a way to collect email addresses there, including some extra value often. So whatever that looks like.

Between the so what does the ebook do? Does the ebook if we’re trying to figure out how to wake people calculators are always good. It’s fine.

Calculators are always good.

It’s fine. It’s great. But people get annoyed having to enter their information to get the answer to the calculator or, like, to the quiz or whatever.

Yeah. They don’t have to enter their information. Theoretically, they should.

But How would you turn it into a lead magnet?

They they would ideally have to enter their information. Just technically, I couldn’t figure out how to do that.

Okay. Yeah. Fair enough.

That I have. But, ideally, that would be the case, but it is currently not. Right.

So for them to become leads out of it, you’d have to change the tech. You haven’t figured out how to do that, plus it’s annoying. So possibly too many too much work for something that might not work.

Ebooks are good.

You said it’s not grand looking. And, again, it’s a question of what is the content of the ebook. Is it does it really simplify the work so they can do it without you?

Yeah. Oh, I go through the main elements of the page and the important things that they have to keep in mind if they really wanna optimize this. I don’t go through every step of the process. I go through, like, what do you need to keep in mind for social proof? What do you need to keep in mind when it comes to headlines? When it when it comes to keywords, what if you have a new category that you’re working with?

And it has a whole bunch of good examples.

Yeah.

Less in the ebook than in the original blog from which I took it. Mhmm. But I could potentially turn that into a checklist. I could also I’m thinking of creating a checklist for the upcoming workshop that I’m doing for ads. So I could come up with not necessarily a checklist, but, like, a set of taglines, or, like, templates that I found have been successful on a wide variety of ads.

So that could be helpful as well because a lot of agencies and campaign managers start thinking about their ads before their landing pages because they need a lot more of them.

And if they’re an agency, they might have less access to their landing page because the landing page would be controlled by the company. And so it’s harder for them to modify it because there’s not as much of a collaboration. They just have one stakeholder or one point of contact.

Okay. So my only my thinking here goes right back to Jessica’s stuff around, like, what do you have that already exists? That’s your ideal prospect.

We’ll find value in not such that they do your job, but that they are aware like, oh, wow. This is a really big job. Like, there’s a lot of value here. I don’t wanna mess this up.

I should bring in the person who knows how to do this well, which is where an ebook can be good if it’s not teaching you everything. Like, obviously, awesome is a really good example of that. You can use it and do it. But if you have money, you’ll just bring the right person in to do it.

So I’m wondering how much of your book would do that job, but then there’s the other side. A lead magnet when we’re talking about a lead magnet, it’s a free thing. They pay for it with their email address, which is real currency, but not real currency.

If you paid with your email address, you don’t value it the same way as if you paid with your credit card. If you have to take your credit card out, that’s a whole other thing or let it enter through whatever system you’ve got.

And that’s where it’s like, should you keep the book as a lead magnet, but it’s more like a tripwire that sells on Amazon. That’s a real thing that people can find on, again, Amazon, a big search engine.

Does that make sense? And if that does, then then leave it there. And instead, I would say, look again, look in your process.

Look for the things that you ask clients repeatedly or where they go, Interesting. I’ll give that some thought. Those moments are like, you can do something with that. The question of what that is is another story. Checklists, although, yes, good, also minimize your work down to a checklistable thing.

So good for teaching copywriters if you wanna attract them. Not as good for telling clients what I do is hard.

So you gotta keep that in mind. Video goes a very long way. Short video goes an even longer way. So that’s, again, going back to what do clients respond well to when you’re talking with them, where do they wake up the most?

That’s what I would say. You’ll find your lead magnet in that.

If it’s a calculator, I would doubt it’s a calculator. I think those are just good tools to have that make people feel like you’re legit. You’ve got all of these these cool resources on your site because people come to you with these questions all the time.

But, yeah, it’s in your it’s somewhere it’s buried in your process, in your existing assets, in the stuff you already talk about.

And I I think pulled it out as I think what, people campaign managers find the most compelling, a lot of them do know that copywriting is important.

But but either they find it boring or they don’t know how to do it or they find it challenging or they don’t have the time to do it.

And I think they don’t realize how much of a difference it can make, especially when done over time. So it’s not that they don’t value it. It’s that they don’t know it can make, like, a twenty thousand dollar difference. And because budgets are so, so tight right now, I’ve talked to companies that have had their budgets cut by, like, ninety percent.

That could be a really valuable tool for optimizing these campaigns.

So that’s been the angle that I’ve been pushing more lately.

If you wanna, like, you can’t increase your butt your your bids by thirty percent just, like, randomly, on a Wednesday without getting more budget from upper management. But you can easily improve the conversion rate on a landing page by thirty percent if you know what you’re doing. And so that’s what I was thinking more with the checklist, not necessarily a checklist, like tiny things, checklist, like, some things that require more steps, but Yeah. Can still be condensed to one page because we’re not dealing with people who love to read large amounts of text.

Yeah. Agreed. They don’t. And they wanna hire someone that they like. So if you show up on camera and you’re smiling and you’re clearly an expert in a thing, you win more than a checklist, which has no human attached to it, which indicates, yes, easy, but also work versus a person, which is what they’re really scoping for. Right? And so there’s a couple things you’re saying here that are interesting.

You’re talking about an audience that has not learned yet, that copy is salesmanship in print. They think copy is words. They think it’s written by wordsmiths.

This is a bad audience. This is not the right audience because they take so much work to get on board with. What, it’s sales? I didn’t even realize that.

The one of the reasons that we wanna position ourselves in sales, not in even marketing or definitely not in writing, which is why I keep vetoing when people say, my brand name has copy in it. I’m like, pull a copy out. Leave whatever’s left behind. Just whatever it is. If it’s the copy, then you’re called the now. Like, that’s just like, we’ve gotta get rid of copy because people don’t value it. But they do value sales.

When times are good, you invest in sales. When times are bad, you invest in sales. Always, always, always, every large organization is sales driven no matter what West Bush and Product Led Growth want us to believe. So knowing that, if we can target people who understand that copy is salesmanship in print, then you don’t have to have all of these hard conversations and worry about putting together a lead magnet that will somehow get them to understand your value when they’re busy spinning their I’ve met these marketers.

I know exactly the kinds of marketers you’re talking about. They’re never gonna get on board. They’re never gonna understand it because there’s there’s no reason for them to. They’re not incented to.

Someone above them isn’t saying you’re accountable for sales. They’re saying you’re accountable for clicks. Make sure that we’re not spending too much on that. Everything feels like an expense in marketing.

Copywriting isn’t an expense. Copywriting is how you make money.

Well, actually, my question is a win.

Okay.

I have, like, three or four new leads that I’m, like, trying to close at the moment. Nice. So that’s exciting. I’ve never had so many people, reach out. So there are, like, people who I’ve sort of been in touch with over a long period of time, and now they’re all, like, like, ready to Yes. To start.

So then my question would be, how do you, like I’m not sure I can take on all of them at once, but I don’t wanna not manage the deal because I I want at least one or two of them to to close.

But I don’t wanna say, like, oh, you have to go on my calendar because I I haven’t closed any of them yet.

Yes.

Yeah. My rule is just close as many as humanly possible and then figure it out.

I know that’s like, well, Joe, there’s only one of me. Uh-huh. But this is, you know, part of growing.

You might work some long hours. And what it will also do, though, because working a lot isn’t the point, what it can do is help you see that you need people that you can outsource work to. You need systems in place to do that. You need to document what how you think and how you get stuff done. So if you’ve already got that underway, if you already got those things in place, then you can easily say, great. More work. I know how much profit I’m gonna make if I quote this much and hand it off to this person, how much time it’s gonna take me.

And then, yay, you could make money. But if you have to say no to these things, then you can actually feel the negative effect of, like, I lost six thousand dollars today. Because last week, I decided not to document how I get this thing done, and instead, I did something that is not gonna earn me six thousand dollars. So long story short, you will need documentation and people ready to do work for you.

But always, my rule is just say just close as many as you possibly can and then literally figure it out. There are a lot of good copywriters out there who suck at promoting themselves that you can get to do that work for you.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Bring it. And just charge more while you’re at it then. If you don’t want all the work, just, like, raise that rate.

I did. I raised my rate, like, thirty percent on these projects. Nice. So that was exciting.

How that goes. You just keep going.

It’s the old highs and the new low. That’ll be fun. Cool. I hope it all closes for you. Do you want to walk through anything that you’re like what do you think might keep you from getting from closing them?

Well, these ones are more content focused. Okay.

One of them one of them, the guy has to convince his his superiors that it’s worth, the investment. They like, his boss quit, and he’s overwhelmed, and he needs help.

So he’s I’ve I’ve worked with him before. He’s a previous colleague. Okay. You just you’re, like he’s overwhelmed.

Yeah. Nice guy. It’s, Wordtune’s blog, if you know Wordtune.

They’re under, it’s an AI, AI tool.

Nice.

So he has to convince his superiors. There’s another one that’s in security. Cyber security is really, really big in Tel Aviv, and it’s super technical and super dry.

Okay. But I gave him a pretty high quote.

And I figure, like, I’m probably better than anyone else he’s talking to. So, like, that’s probably a good, might be a nice a nice challenge.

So, yeah, it’s just a matter like, they’re sort of go between. So they have to convince their like, one is a consultant, and one is a needs to convince their upper management.

And that Do you have any strategies in place for what to do when someone says, now I’m gonna go talk to other people without you in the room and try to then sell them even though you’re not there to sell them?

Well, one of them I sent a proposal, so I documented what everything would involve. K. And the other one, I sent some samples.

But, yeah, I mean, there and then there’s another one who’s, like he’s a an a marketing agency. So he is trying to, like, potentially pitch my services. Okay. So I could, like, I could definitely ask, like, do you wanna jump on a call? But Yeah. Yeah. I I’m not sure if it’s I’m not sure if there’s a huge barrier.

I don’t think because they I quoted the price, and there was no pushback at all. So I don’t think it’s a matter of price. I think it’s just a matter of, like, getting it done because sometimes processes are slow, especially when companies are overwhelmed and there’s a lot of other things to do. So I’m not actually sure what what the barriers are, if any.

Okay. Okay.

Cool. Yeah. Abby, I saw your chat too. We’ll talk more about, some of those strategies around what happens in events of what a salesperson might call multithreading, what we just call. Like, oh, now they’re taking it to talk to their superior, and reassurances and things that need to happen there.

I had an off-site with Blair Ends, actually, who teaches this stuff exactly, so I might see if I can get him to hop on and share some of his thoughts there as well, because that’d be cool.

Okay. Cool.

So, Joe, my standardized offer is standing up five, upsell emails K.

Including, like, doing the customer research and so on and implementing.

Mhmm. And then the retainer is the ongoing optimization of those for revenue expansion.

Okay. So my question is, what lead magnet will open up the gap so the customer is like, oh my goodness. You need to do this for us.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Many ways that you could go. Right? So you said the video is a thing. Checklist is, like, a a deletable kind of thing.

Right? Like, they sign up for it, but they never actually use it Yeah. Which can be fine. So we we obviously wanna put out a useful lead magnet course because someone might actually use the thing.

But the reality is most people won’t use it, and what matters most is not what the lead magnet is, but what happens on the confirmation page for the lead magnet.

So that’s the bigger opportunity.

So that’s why we wanna make it a good lead magnet, something that matches what they need or are most interested in.

In week eight, you will do a, like, you’ll identify the media diet of your the personas within your ICP, which really just means you’ll sit there, figure out, do they read books? Do they watch videos on YouTube? What events do they go to? Do they go to any? Are they IRL, or are they whatever. We’re we’re figuring out where they’re at and what they need, and that will help you identify the best possible lead magnet.

It that’s not that that’s what we’re do the work we’re doing in week eight, but just know that’s coming. So you can start thinking about that now, and that will help you with this lead magnet. So two things. We’ll get to the lead magnet, idea in just a second. But before that, the confirmation page. So I am on cold meds, and I taught this a lot in Coffee School Pro, and I’m struggling to remember how much of it I teach in the intensive.

So help me understand, have I already taught you about what goes on the confirmation page?

I don’t think so unless I missed it.

That’s cool.

That’s I’m like, did I miss it?

No. I don’t know. That’s okay. And if anybody else is like, she did. She talked to you. Just let me know right now.

No. Okay. Good.

Confirmation page for your lead magnet is what you’re really trying to drive people to. That is where if someone’s a good lead, that’s where you wanna have the a video embedded. You’ve got this. So you probably started scripting the video, or else you’ll do that in an upcoming week. There’s a yeah. You’re on week four, Marina?

Yeah.

It said something about, oh, maybe there is something Yeah.

With a Calendly.

Yep. That’s that’s been Oh, good. Good.

Okay. That’s what you’re talking about. Yes.

I’m like, no wonder what that is.

Oh, probably because I don’t have the lead magnet yet.

So I’m like, not even thinking about it.

Time. Yeah. Perfect. So just know that as you work through week four, you’ll have the video that you script that’s like, hey.

And the Calendly link or embed, if that makes sense. Right? So it’s up to you to optimize the hell out of that confirmation page for your goals. If your goal was, Joe, I don’t care about standardized offers no matter what you say or retainer offers, and I just wanna sell product type services, you could embed a productized service on that page.

So it’d be up to you to determine what that is. I’m not gonna deal with people who break all of the rules. So I’m gonna go with, okay. You’re going to try to get them on a call with you.

So follow everything that you’re about to learn in week four regarding the confirmation page. Alright. That brings me to the lead magnet.

What is the topic? Or did was that your question?

What is the what is the thing that you’re saying in the lead magnet?

You’re saying So I’m thinking in the lead magnet because we want them to, they need to know, like, push the pain on why their, upsell emails, like, to upsell to the next plan, why they might not be working. Yeah. So maybe the why so maybe they know already, like, oh, we don’t like the numbers.

Mhmm.

So then the idea of the lead magnet then would be to create a sense of authority. Like, maybe I know what I’m talking about. So then that’s why they should listen to that. And then I had thought that if it was a checklist, then every item on the checklist could eventually become a piece of content.

But then I’m like, who’s, like, VP marketing CMOs? Like, are they even looking at this stuff? Like or is it just other copywriters who are gonna be like, oh, that’s cool how she did that? Because that’s kind of like a waste.

Yeah. You don’t want it to be for copywriters. No. That’s true.

And, yes, I I’ve fielded this question many times. That’s a good question, and it is around, is a CMO looking at something on Instagram?

But, yes, they are. They really are, because they’re people, and they chill out in front of their phones like the rest of us do. They also read books. They also do other things.

Right? So it’s not like we’re solely focused on them finding us on Instagram, but it’s a good place to, like, promote your lead magnet. LinkedIn, same thing. LinkedIn is actually really, really difficult to get a CMO to pay attention to you over there because they’re inundated, with everybody trying to pitch them over there.

So there’s that to consider.

But there’s a lot to talk about on that subject as well. LinkedIn, it’s not like it’s a bad idea. It’s just it can’t be your only thing. So we’re trying to figure out where they’re consuming content.

Let’s say it’s gonna be Instagram. It’s gonna be LinkedIn, and what that needs to be about. So the best lead magnets, as I said, wake people up to the problem. So that’s what you’re trying to do is wake them up to the problem, and that can be helping to, like, get them to diagnose that they have this problem.

Yes.

So so I talked about this actually, this thing that I’m working on, and I briefly mentioned it today in freelancing school in office hours, which is how to come up with those questions for diagnosis.

I don’t know if it’s gonna be helpful. So, Marina, I’ll send it to you separately, but it’s really just, like, list out the problems caused by them not having what is it? Sorry. The five upsell emails.

So what are their problems? I’m not having this money, that money, the other money. How does that manifest? Like, how does it show up for them?

And it might be as simple as I look at my Google Analytics and the numbers are down or whatever that could be, but list of how it manifests. And then turn that manifestation into a question like, are you experiencing shitty numbers in Google Analytics because of blah?

And that can help them go like, yes. That’s that’s true. That’s true. All of this to say, if you are trying to get them in, like, your social posts that lead to the lead magnet to diagnose their problem, You can just do a video that’s like, here’s my take on things. Here is me doing an audit of something. It doesn’t that’s a really good way to show your expertise, you doing an audit of some random things.

Thinking about that. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s also a scary thing, though, because people are like, what if she audits my thing next or something. Right? So but some people are down for that. They’re like, I hope she audits my thing next.

We also and, Kara, I think you’ve started working on this. Right?

The the diagnostic Yeah. Actual tool.

So I want you to Marina, have you seen that lesson on the diagnostic yet? It’s in copy school pro. It’s not really intensive. Okay. Tina, can you get Marina a link to that diagnostic lesson? Thank you. I think if you go through the diagnostic lesson, that will help you know what to talk about, when it comes to, like, what people really, really like, what CEOs really love is a model.

A model changes their lives, like frameworks and models, and they’re like, sign me up. How much does it cost? That doesn’t mean all the time, so take it with a grain of salt. I’m not. Right? It’s not like it’s the perfect catnip for cat.

So but go through that, Marina, and see if that doesn’t help you identify what you should do for your lead magnet. Because if all else fails and you’re not sure what to do, one, make sure the confirmation page is everything is super optimized.

But you wanna make sure they’re only gonna get there if they’re interested in the subject. So you have to back up to help them diagnose their own problems, which is everything. Right? Like, that’s the core of what we’re really doing in marketing.

But then also get them to a place where they can see you on camera solving their problem by drawing out your model and helping them identify what’s up.

So that’s a lot of things you have to go do in order to get to the right answer, but I think you’ll get to the right answer when you do. And you might just be like, oh, yeah. I should just do a video where I do audit a thing and then show them how I diagnose this by showing them my diagnostic. Does that make sense?

Oh, that I I like that. Yeah.

Okay. Cool. And it will make sense once you watch that lesson. So just watch that.

Well and there’s no point in doing something that’s not actually gonna get their attention. Like, I don’t wanna waste my time, so this sounds really good.

Totally. The more you can, what I keep seeing again and again when I hang out with people who are leaders in their space, they are they love people who know their shit so well that they’ve got it down to a model they can draw out.

They love it.

They eat this stuff up. All CEOs are trying to do all day is weed out bad from, like, excellent. And so if you can show your excellent, it’s such a great way. It doesn’t matter if it’s on Instagram or LinkedIn or if you cold email them at that point because you’re excellent. And you show that by drawing out your model that diagnoses their problem, and then they’re like, how do I get you in front of my team? Does that make sense?

That is awesome. Yes. Super helpful. Thank you. Awesome. Cool. Thanks, Marina.