Tag: mindset
Mastering the Mindset Shift from Writer to Leader
Mastering the Mindset Shift from Writer to Leader
Transcript
I’ve started a few more people might, join us, but that’s okay. They can catch up with where we are. So as you know today, the first fifteen minutes of this session will be training around the mindset of actually growing a team, and how to successfully sort of make that shift from being, the writer to being the leader in your business. Well I was actually wondering, just before we jump into that, I just need to know, out of the three of you, who already has a team or contractors or an employee?
Mhmm. Okay. Cool. That’s alright, Cody. And Marina and Kim, can you just talk through quickly who that team is or or who the who those those people are?
Sure.
So I have a VA that’s just, ten hours a month, and so I am delegating, some of the I was gonna say grunt work. That sounds really bad. But kind of the SOP, creating SOPs and, creating list of people for prospecting and those kind of things. Mhmm.
And then I have a digital business manager for ten hours a month, and she is, well, getting me organized because I’m writing a book. So she’s doing that. And then also client, management. So we currently have one client working through a system with her for that and then with the goal, of course, of building out more clients and having and then eventual goal of having her manage some of that more client side as I get more SOPs done and so on.
Awesome. Yeah. That’s very cool.
I have a part time business operations person, employee that does accounting and all that stuff that I hate doing. And then I also have two contract writers. One that’s part time, about thirty hours a week.
And she’s been working with me for a while, and I’m hope hoping actually to hire her full time one of these days soon. And then I have another contractor who just started who’s pretty part time.
Awesome. Okay. Great. Congrats, Kimarina. That’s awesome. And, Cody, it sounds like it’s all ahead for you. Is that right?
I do most of it. Yeah. I have somebody that helps me with my website. My husband, he uploads. I designed the website. He uploads it for me so that I’m I’m not spending all that time doing that, but that’s about as far as I’ve gotten.
Yeah. No. That is all good. I think that’s where we all start.
I just want to check with you then, Cody.
And, Kim, maybe for you two too. Although it’s Kim, it sounds like you’ve been maybe working with other people for a a little while in the business. While.
Yeah. I’ve I’ve been I’ve had my business for almost nine years now.
So Okay.
Awesome. And whereas, Marina, it sounds like your hires might might be newer. Although I’m just reading between the lines there, so that could be very incorrect.
No. So these hires are new. I have hired for I’m kind of a serial entrepreneur, and I’ve hired for various roles over the years.
But I’m looking forward to this session because I definitely can make use of it.
K. Cool. Well, before we dive into what’s on the worksheet, I just wanted to really quickly, just touch on the fact that if you are someone who is new to hiring or is about to hire for the first time, there may actually be a mindset shift to tackle, before you get into the space of bringing other people into the business. Because I think, what happens for most of us, right? This is where most of us start. I certainly started here too, is that at the beginning, because you have a business that is at least to begin with you delivering a core skill and delivering projects one on one, you can really quite easily start to over identify with your business. So your business becomes an extension of, or an expression of yourself.
And if you are in that space, from a mindset perspective, it is much, much more harder to bring people in to help you build and grow and create efficiencies within the business because you’re thinking of it as your little domain. Whereas if you’re able to de identify from the business a little bit and start to think of it as an asset that you manage, that is a really key mindset shift just to get to the place where you can start to identify who you should hire, what they can take off your plate and how they can actually help you manage that asset so it’s more profitable, more valuable, whatever that goal is for you. So as I said that that’s all I think it’s almost of you nod. Just wanted to check, is there anything that you want me to dive into more deeply before we get into what’s in the worksheet?
I think what you just said is a really good that’s a very good tip to start thinking about it like that. I I have a really hard time.
I’m not at all I’m like the opposite of a micromanager when it comes to anything to do with the business side of things. But when it comes to the writing, it is so hard for me to not, you know, rewrite or redo or, you know, edit extensively.
Mhmm. And so, yeah, that’s helpful.
Yes. Yeah. So letting go of that is hard. Yeah. I totally get it. Absolutely. Uh-huh.
Yep. And I think, one thing that’s also helpful to keep in mind there with that specific example is that really what you should be promising clients who come to you for your services is an outcome. Right?
So it’s less about promising them that you will do all of that copy and everything will be overseen by you. People will come to you because they wanna get the outcome of what your copy offers. So I think it’s a subtle shift, but if you can think of that, it can actually be easier to then work with other writers in a way that gives them the space to do really great work.
Of course, you know, it doesn’t mean that you don’t oversee what they do and you don’t copy chief, but it can just make letting go and giving that little bit of space that that little bit easier, if you think of that because really, we are selling outcomes to our clients. Right? We’re not we’re not selling it. Well, we should we shouldn’t be selling like ourselves in terms of, you know, this is exactly what I’m gonna do, especially when we’re in a growth phase of our business. So I don’t know if that makes sense, but, hopefully, that can be a helpful little chestnut to to take with you.
So quick follow-up to that.
In the previous q and a today, we were talking about branding and my brand, and I need a personal brand and so on. And, true, working on it, all of that.
So how do you then think of your business as not an extension of you? So I’m I’d like to build out an agency. There’s no way that I can possibly do all the work that I am envisioning that I want this to be. Not even possible. But on the other side, so the business needs a brand.
Mhmm. But then, also, I am developing a personal brand. So how does your personal brand and your business brand, like, how did those come together? So you’re not, like, I am not promising that I’m going to be doing the work. The company will be doing the work, and that’s founded on that.
So the business will have a reputation as such, but then as a personality kind of belonging to that because I think of it as an alter ego. Like, it’s me, but it’s not me. Right?
So it’s that alter ego that belongs to or is connected to the business.
So how do you, present and grow those two things kind of simultaneously without people thinking that it’s that you are that?
Brand?
Such a good question. So I think just as your personal brand and the way that you show up within that, so the values you share, the ideas you have, the way you think through things, just as that will attract ideal prospects for you. It should also help you attract your ideal team, right, so that you are able to create a team that aligns with your values and your vision. And, of course, remember that part of your job as a manager or leader will be training and support.
So even though it’s not you doing all the work, as you said, it’s an agency model is where you’re where you’re headed, the fact that you are, you know, at the helm of that ship, I guess, means that you’re the one who’s driving the culture of that organization. You’re the one who’s setting the standards.
You’re the one who is, you know, signing off on the big things before they go out into the world. So I think if you think about it from that perspective, you can see how your personal brand can absolutely still help people see what it is that your business offers specifically, what gives you that business your, you know, the edge it has, what, gives it its USP. So, you know, the personal brand will help with those things. And it still doesn’t mean that it has to be you doing everything. Right? Because you have infused those values, that training, those structures through the business itself so that everything that operates within it is a representation of and in alignment with the personal brand. Does that make sense?
So sort of like I’m just trying to filter through.
So thinking about this personal brand and they’re sort of the face of the business representing the business Mhmm. Culture and ideology and so on, and then the business is is the outcomes.
So the the personal brand is that point of connection and culture, and then the business is upholding, fulfilling the promises, I guess, of that. Is that kind of Yes.
So they’re integrated because if I change the personal brand, then I attract different people.
Mhmm. But regardless of what brand that ends up being on the personal side, this the role of the business is then to uphold, complete the promises or deliver on all the promises, that the personal brand kind of embodies.
Is that Yes. Kind of?
Yeah. That’s right. So there’s a synergy between them. Right? And they’re helping feed and support each other, and they’re helping build the reputation and uphold the reputation of each other.
And yet it’s still not that you need to be the person in the business doing all the things because you’re the face of that business. I mean, think of Jo. I think of copy hackers. Right?
I mean, she’s the face of copy hackers. Right? But she’s also certainly not the person who’s writing all the copy for all the clients. You know?
She’s is probably involved on some level, but she has a team of copywriters who are doing that for her. She has an agency doing that for her. But you know because she’s the face of the business that if you were at an event where she was on stage, you’d absolutely get a taste of how she thinks, what her values are, who she likes to work with, what kind of results you might be able to expect from working with her. Right?
So she’s sort of like the marketing of the business in a way. And then, you know, she’s obviously she’s responsible as, you know, the leader of copy hackers to make sure that the agency in the business does deliver on those things and follow through, but she’s not the one necessarily in the weeds doing all of those things on a micro level. Does that make sense? Right.
Yes. And then people have confidence in that personal brand because then like, thinking about Jo, obviously, they know Jo is not doing all of the stuff.
Okay.
But because they align with her thinking and, like, how she does stuff and her epic, like, all of those things Mhmm.
Then they move forward with the business because they trust they trust kind of the front person.
And so then all of the the businesses, the worker bees, were doing the stuff that is Mhmm. By that front person.
Absolutely. And they also part of that trust of of Jo in that scenario is that she would not let a project be delivered that doesn’t meet her standards.
Yes.
Yes. So that’s an important piece too. So it also helps you, I guess, define your role as a team leader or as a manager because it’s like, okay. All of a sudden, like, I have to really repay my prospects trust in me that even though it’s not me personally creating all these deliverables or doing all the, you know, messy down in the weeds work, they’re trusting me that it’s gonna be delivered to a standard equality that I would be really proud to stand behind and that aligns with everything I put out into the world.
So I don’t know if that is helping further or my hand is yeah.
Well, so then it’s kind of like you’ve got the the gatekeeper. She’s not gonna let any projects come in that she can’t deliver on. And then once they’re past sort of her the gate, her as the gate, and the work is being done. And before the work heads out again, it there’s that kind of quality check.
Yes. Absolutely. Okay.
I know you can’t see what it’s in my head, but I’m like, okay. I’m getting the visual. This is good.
No. I love I’m loving your hands. I talk with my hands too. So I’m like, yes. My hand talking friends.
Okay.
Perfect.
Questions on that, Kim or Cody, or any comments before we move into things on a, I guess, a slightly different level?
No. I just agree with her. I mean I mean, with everything that was said because I’ve been doing this too for a long time. I started in twenty seventeen, so I’ve had to figure out my brand multiple, multiple times.
And so, yeah, it is it can be confusing at first, but I think just realizing that the brand is just, like, the face of the business and then everything else that gets delivered on the back end there is, like, you just wanna uphold your brand, right, by making sure you’re delivering what you say you’re gonna deliver. And you’re the one out there with the messages. You’re the one out there, like, saying all the things right, but then then you have, like, that quality check. Right?
Like, if I hire a bunch of people, there’s no way that I’m not gonna look over that and be like, we need to make sure this is right before we stick it out there because the brand is on the line. Right?
Yes. I love that. Yeah. Your reputation’s on the line. The trust that you have with your prospects and your customers is on the line as well. So, yes, the synergy between those two things has to be really on point.
But I mean, listen to you guys. You obviously give a shit. Right? You really care about that. So you’re not going to be the kind of people who’s just going to say all the right things as your personal brand and bring all the people in and then just, you know, let whatever was going to happen happen. Right? You’re going to be on top of it.
Okay, alright.
Sorry we have a little bit less time for questions than I thought but that’s okay, let me dive into the worksheet just so we can talk a little bit more deeply about two of the key mindset problems that I see pop up for most people when they are actually hiring or building a team. Let me just share my screen.
Okay. Hopefully, you guys can see the worksheet. Just give me a yeah. Okay. Perfect. Right.
Sorry. I feel like your faces are always right where I need to press a button, which is my bad. Okay. So, just to dive into this a bit further, so I guess what we’ve talked about there is the, you know, the very first mindset shift that needs to happen before you’re in a place where you are ready, able, and excited to hire a team, right, to start outsourcing bits of your work, that are really important to you. Right. It’s not that you’re outsourcing the stuff that you don’t care about, even if it is, you know, that grunt work and those little itty bitty pieces, they are often the foundations of what allows you to do, you know, the really flashy, fun, exciting work. So it is all really important.
Now the thing that I think we’ve just touched on, is that I have a mistake now.
Sorry. There we go. If you have been operating as a business of one for a while now, you’re used to doing all of the things and having control over all the things and letting go of this is often one of the trickiest parts of the shift. Right. Because when you are not the person doing the thing, of course, there’s room for error. Right. Or at least it feels like there’s more room for error than there would normally be.
On top of that, the kind of leaders or managers you’ve had in the past will almost certainly shape the way you show up for your own people, which can be problematic for the simple fact that we often overcorrect.
So the example I’ve got here is if you’ve had a team leader in the past who was really harsh and unsupportive, we might be overly kind and flexible as a result of that. And of course, that kind of leadership approach, is actually detrimental to your team and your business. Even though it might feel like you’ve been a very nice kind person, it does mean that you’re probably not doing the job as you should be doing it.
On top of those two things, leading others often creates a whole new space for our own maladaptive tendencies to flourish if left unchecked. So that things like people pleasing, perfectionism, all those kind of lovely traits that we all have, you know, at least one or two of, they get a whole new platform to, show up in if we are not on top of them and aware of when they may be at play, and what they might actually look like.
So when I work with people who are about to hire or often more often than not, it’s actually when they’re moving from just having a VA, you know, a handful of hours a month to actually have someone who is either more senior, more involved in the actual client deliverables. So like a writer, or someone who is more embedded in the business, so someone who may actually be an employee rather than a contractor.
The two challenges that I see come up ninety percent of the time, the first one of those is a fear of being unlikable.
Now this is definitely the one I fell into early on. I am at heart a people pleaser. So this is my trap, right? So if this is resonating with you too, you’re in good company.
But the fear of being a like will often leads to a tendency to pull into a friendship model of leadership, which is problematic for a whole host of reasons. Namely, you’re likely to avoid tough conversations, gloss things over, set nebulous expectations, hold loose boundaries, be lax on accountability, and let people operate within their comfort zone one hundred percent of the time, which ultimately leads to them having no opportunities to grow and develop. Right. So you’re not being a good leader and you’re not fostering an environment for your employees or your contractors to actually do good work.
So remember here that good leadership is not about being liked. Right. And maybe we can all think of someone in the past, whether it was in the previous business we had or when we worked maybe nine to five, who was a really great leader, but who maybe we didn’t really like that much on a personal level. Right. They’re separate things.
So being a good leader is really about helping people realize their potential, and being a friend to someone first and a leader second is not the best way to do that.
So if you do find yourself getting tripped up here, you’re likely someone who needs some level of warmth in their leadership style, because it is important that you are a leader in your own authentic way. Right? It’s not about fitting a certain mold, and trying to fake it till you make it because you’ve been told this is how certain good leaders work. It’s about finding a way to be yourself and be really natural and authentic, in that role. Because at the end of the day, that’s what’s going to be sustainable. And it’s also what’s going to help infuse your business and the people that work for you, with that culture, right? With that essence of you that we have just been talking about.
So it may help if this is resonating with you to think about the difference between being a friend to someone and being friend Lee.
So I’ve got a table here for you and we can if this is resonating, we can spend some time now going through some situations and sort of brainstorm what the difference in response here might be between a friend and a friendly leader. But just as an example, so let’s say you have a contractor, maybe a subcontractor who helps you with your copywriting projects and they fail to deliver a key piece of work on time. And let’s just say it’s for the first time ever, right? Because if this is a pattern that you’re seeing within them, obviously, it’s time to let them go.
In this situation, a friend might say, oh, don’t worry and just do the work for them. Right? They’re going to jump in. They’re going to take on that load and they’re going to fix the problem themselves without any real consequence to that contractor who has missed the mark.
On the other hand, a friendly leader might do something like work really quickly to find a solution in the here and now. Right. Because it’s obviously really important that that key piece of work gets done and gets to where it needs to go. But after that’s happened, take the time to understand what actually happened and whether there’s something that either they or the contractor could do to prevent the same thing from happening in the future. So having that kind of conversation after the fact, lays down really clear expectations or reinforces clear expectations.
It is also a way to collaborate with that person. And collaboration, I think, is such a key part of good leadership, right? You’re on the same team, quite literally. You’re working towards the same kind of goals. So it’s about, okay, how can we actually support each other to get there, to get this business closer to the vision I actually have for it?
So in that way, if you take that approach, clear expectations, clear boundaries, maybe new SOPs, right, if that’s what’s necessary, but also really clear accountability for that person. So you’ve agreed on something that next time they have that task, if they again fail to deliver on time. Okay. That’s a really clear indication that something here is not going to work. You are not filling your role. It’s time to part ways.
So any questions on that or otherwise, any situations you can think of that you have either had or really worried about how having, and you would like to talk through how you may respond in a more effective way? If if not, that’s okay. Yep.
Marina, it was a quick hand.
Sorry.
Yes. This is, this is me.
So friendly versus friend.
So where are, like, the conversation boundaries? Like, I like to be collaborative, and then I start using we language.
Mhmm. Right? Like, we should do this, and when this happens, we should, and this is our and, like, all of that kind of.
And then but the bottom line is, at the end of the day, the buck stops with me. The buck doesn’t stop with the other person. Right?
So how can I be And then, I take on, yeah, take on some things because I’m like, oh, well, that’s probably asking too much? So I’ll do this. And then because it’s this, like, oh, well, we’re on the same level. We’re on the same team. We’re on the same level.
So how can you be friendly?
Okay.
Like, kindness is sort of my overarching, like that’s why I operate. I think, k, kindness is the filter for everything. So how can you be kind and friendly while still having exacting standards? Like, this is what I expect.
This is Mhmm. What needs to happen. This is when it needs to happen.
But then if it doesn’t, then then how can you still be friendly, and not take that friend route where you’re like, oh, I’m really disappointed, but we’ll figure it out Mhmm.
Which isn’t really the answer. And then you’re just kind of, like, angsty and not really wanting to look the person in the eye because every time you do, then you’re like, last time they let me down.
Mhmm. Right?
So how do you how do you I don’t know what I’m trying to ask.
That would be the best. That would be the best. Be more that friendly leader.
Mhmm. Yes. And I love the way you describe that too. It’s like, ah, I found myself in a hell of my own making. Pretty much.
So a quick question for you first. Is it that you find it really hard to identify the expectations you wanna set or to communicate those?
I find it hard to communicate those primarily well, let’s just say that my husband and I have tried working together on things. There is a point to this. And he’s like, you’re really hard to work for because and then I worked my brother and I did a SaaS startup, and we kinda went here on fire for three years. And I’m, like, here’s the goal.
Let’s go for the goal. Drive. Drive. Drive. And I forget that people have lives, and I just, like, drive.
Like, I can do the thing.
And so then then I try to have this, like, oh, okay. I need to breathe a little bit so I can be easier to work with. But I still like, I have goals, and I wanna get to those goals. And I wanna I want people to come alongside. It’s gonna be beneficial for them, beneficial for me. Like, let’s do good work together.
But then I find, I’m a hard driver. Like, I drive really hard, and so I don’t wanna burn people out. So then I end up going way too far on the other side being that brand.
Mhmm.
Which then is just not really. Like, it’s this facade because inside, I’m like, come on. Like, if we wanna get this goal, then we need these deadlines. And, sure, they’re arbitrary, but I set them because that’s how we’re gonna get this goal. Right?
Mhmm. Mhmm.
I don’t I can’t remember what the question was even now.
Oh, no.
Sorry. I’m like, I drive too I drive too hard. So I’m like, how can I, yeah, have reasonable expectations for people so that it can be friendly, and then I don’t have to, like, pretend that I’m buddy buddy to try to, like, get them to work more?
Yes. And as you were sharing, another question came up for me, and that was and this may be like, the answer may be no, but I just wanna check.
Is there an element that you think you’re falling more into being really friendly because you think you set the bar so high? Like, your expectations of maybe the pace of work or the volume of work is so high that you feel like you need to counter that with, like, all that, like yeah. Totally.
Yeah.
Because I’m like, well, maybe if I’m really nice, then oh, now you’re knowing all my secrets.
But but it’s just kind of like this okay. Well, if I’m nice and collaborative and try to be good to work with, then maybe they’ll keep up the pace and we can do this. But if Mhmm. If I fall into the, like okay.
Well, this is due on this day. This is due on this day. How are you doing on this? And, like, more, just results oriented, then I feel like I’m gonna lose them.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Interesting.
I mean, I think we could do a whole therapy session on this because this must come from somewhere.
No.
We won’t go.
We won’t go there today.
She’s totally of its own, like, its own delusion.
So first of all, it is okay. And it is even really wonderful to be both kind and ambitious.
You can be both those things and you should own both those things, right? I think the worst possible approach to things here is that you’re not open about how ambitious you are and how much you expect people to keep pace with you when you bring them on. Because there are people out there who will be excited by that, who work like you, who think like you, who are like, yes, this is awesome. Like, let’s go.
I want to do this with you. So I think that’s really going to be a really key piece for you, right? To have those expectations really clear and to lead with those when you start to hire someone or you start to onboard someone, because I think if it’s a surprise to them, right, and then as you start to try and get them to do the things you want them to do on your timeline, you know, they’re probably going to be some pushback or some freak out. And that’s when you are going to kick into friend mode because you’re going to be like, why can’t I do?
You know, they might be about to run away from me. So let’s let’s bring it back and let’s dial it back in. But of course, that’s not helping either of you because it means that you’re stuck in this place of frustration and feeling like you’re just not getting what you need from them. And your employee or your contractor is also stuck in a place where they feel like expectations are muddy.
You know, sometimes she feels like she just wants so much from me. But then the way she communicates about that, it’s kind of, like, really lax. And, like, I feel like I’m not being held to any sort of deadline or any sort of, you know, really clear boundary around this. So I actually think for you specifically, a huge part of this is just gonna be around clarity of communicating expectations and also finding a way to be able to, like, KPI those things.
Like, okay, let’s look at this. How are we gonna know when this is actually done or achieved?
Because I think if you can clearly identify that and the person that you’re training and upskilling can get on board with those things, that also takes some stuff off your plate. Right? Because you’re not gonna need to check-in with them every, you know, morning, like, how’s it going? They’ll know.
They’ll be like, okay. I’m tracking towards this. Here’s here’s where I’m at. That’s the update.
I’m okay. I don’t need help. Let me keep going.
So is any of this sort of helping?
Yes. I think that that is I’m afraid of, like, scaring people away by saying, this is what I expect.
Uh-huh. And and I expect that, and you’ll be compensated well. And when we win, you’ll get a piece of that.
But but I’m afraid of saying that because then I think, well, maybe they’re gonna think it’s too much work and but then they’re not really the right person to work with anyway.
Exactly.
If so that’s why you need to be clear about it and say it upfront. Right? And this is a probably a good example too of, like, your personal brand attracting the right people to help you bring that to life in your business. Right?
You know, you’re ambitious. You wanna get things done. That’s great. So talk about that and the people who are gonna fit that out there.
Right? I mean, there may be a point at which I don’t I don’t know. I feel like you can’t expect someone to work, for example, like, you know, sixteen hour days every day. So but I don’t think it’s about that.
Right?
No.
It’s I think it’s more like about I want people to be on board.
Like, let’s Mhmm. Let’s all be working towards the same goal. Like, every the jobs that I get people to do are important because if they don’t do them, even if they’re admin tasks if they don’t do those admin tasks well, everything else suffers too. Right?
Mhmm.
So it’s not a matter of whose job is more important. It’s like do your job with excellence. Mhmm. Yes.
I love that. You know, I would like, I mean, not now. I’ve said in my life, I would love to work for you. You know, I feel like the more you can communicate this, the better, because it is going to resonate with people and you’re talking there about values too. And I actually think that what you shared just then is gonna be really empowering for the right people to hear. Like, oh, cool. Like, my piece of the pie is really important.
Here’s how it all fits in together. Right? Because that, I think, adds accountability and also motivation. Like it incentivizes them to do the job and to do it well if they can see how it fits into the big picture.
So I think, again, there’s probably a piece in there that, like, after you’ve communicated that again, getting really clear on KPIs and setting them up so that they can actually, you know, almost automate because they’re humans. But, you know, maybe there’s something there where they can preemptively check-in with you and let you know where they’re up to so that you’re not in a space of like worrying about that or worrying about having to push them too hard to get to the place because you have visibility on where they’re at and how that aligns with your timelines.
How does that fit? Like, the the VA that I have, she’s doing that. Like, she’s like, oh, by the way, I did this. This is what I tried.
This is the outcome. Do you want like, she’s, like, checking in, and she’s not asking me how to do things. She’s just saying, here’s the update. Here’s what I did.
Here so many hours I have left. Here’s the projects that are and I’m like, I love you. Like Right.
That’s that’s what I’m I mean yeah.
So Great. This is really helpful. I don’t wanna hog at the time, though, but I’m like, wow. This is I saw that this was coming up, and I was like, okay. This is this is timely. This is good.
I gotta be there. Awesome. And I too, like, remember that every time you work with someone and I know I’ve done it before, but this is, you know, the new highs in this current business, everything’s a learning opportunity for you too. Right? So take the time to reflect on what’s working well and what’s not, and know that you can actually take those reflections to that person and share them openly so that you can talk about what’s working for you and what’s not, because you may find that the things that aren’t working for you are also not working for them. Right. And then you’ve got two people working in silence in a way that does not suit either of them.
Right.
I think open honest communication can really go a long way. And I think for you, it’s really important to start that at the point of hiring and be really open and clear and transparent with expectations and their piece and their part in the business and in the vision, because I think that will empower and attract the right people, which I think will probably be half of the battle. Right?
Yeah. I think so. Thank you. Pleasure. Cody, I hope some of this is at least helpful for you.
It is.
I like, my husband too, and he still needs a lot of things.
Right? And and it’s funny because it’s just like sometimes, you know, like, he won’t stay on task. And so I feel like I’m, you know, getting, like, drilling him a little bit because I need these pages done by a certain time, and you agreed to do it. And I’ll, like, come in there, and he’ll be, like, checking his crypto charts.
Or I’m like, what are you doing? You know? Like, okay. Maybe what we need to do is set, like, a schedule.
Like, okay. Between this hour and this hour, you’re only gonna work on this. You know? So stay focused.
Right?
Those kinds of things. But I definitely, I can relate with you a lot with a lot of the things that you said because I have similar situation.
Awesome. Well, it’s I always feel like it’s so good to know in these workshops that, one, you’re not alone, but, also, it’s really good when you get to learn through someone else’s conversation. So I’m glad that some of that was relevant, Cody. That’s awesome.
Yeah. And I really liked when you said to be open about your expectations. Right? Because hiring somebody you know, with him, it’s different.
Obviously, we live together. He’s just helping me. Right? Like, just until I can hire someone else to do it.
And, it’s just really eye opening to be like, okay. Yeah. Communicate that. Even in your brand, that you value those things, that you value being open, like, that you value, that you can that people care about the outcome of your work or that we meet deadlines or that we stay on task, those kinds of things.
Right?
Yep. Absolutely. It’s never too early to start communicating those those values about how and why you work, hundred percent. And, also, this is a slide night, guys. Like, I’m impressed that whether you can work with your husband.
I cannot imagine my husband and I working together because I feel like it’s really hard when you have an existing relationship with someone, right? Because then you’ve got dual relationships and it’s like, well, am I your wife or am I your manager? Like, so I feel like that’s an added layer of challenge. So kudos to both of you for making it work for certain periods of time.
I’m just grateful that he does help. So I try not to push very hard because I don’t, you know, I don’t want him to be like, well, you know what? I’m not gonna help you at all.
But at the same time, like, he agreed to help me, and I want you to follow through with what you said you’re gonna do. You know? So Mhmm. There is a balance but we work really well as a team like that.
So Awesome.
Yeah. That’s what I just wanna say, which may not be relevant, but just as a point, generally so it might not be relevant for you, Cody, but just generally when you said like you find him and he’s checking out his, he said stocks or something. I can’t remember.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It’s it’s funny too, because I wonder if that in a way is a really good example of how our expectations around how work gets done and the time it takes can be more problematic than helpful because the goal really is that people are reaching the outcomes at the time we need them to be reached by. Right? Like, you know, you could put all three of us in an office together, and if we all had the same task to complete by five PM, I’m sure we’d all go about it in a totally different way. You know, I’d probably be often having a swim in the sea for an hour in the morning because that’s how I work, but doesn’t mean that I’m not going to do the thing to the right standard by the right time. So just, you know, something to just think about, as you go about and hire people and build a team.
No. I really I I really appreciate that too, and I agree. We all do it differently.
My experience, the only reason why I didn’t really appreciate walking into that is because he is more of a like, he’s not very good with deadlines. He straight up told me he doesn’t like deadlines.
He doesn’t Mhmm. Get into deadlines, these kinds of things.
I’m like, well, then we don’t we need them for, like, at least, like, somewhere to, you know, focus. We can’t just not have, like, a goal at all. You know? So Yes.
Tricky. But yeah. Yeah. I I agree. And I think that your point there is really good too. As long as people are getting the job done and they’re doing the work to a decent standard, a good standard, your standard, then I think it doesn’t matter how they get there ultimately. So I I totally agree.
Yep. Awesome. Alright. Well, let’s talk some time. I think we’ve got two minutes. Let’s talk about the other really common mindset challenge, which is fear of losing control, which, as you can imagine, often leads to a tendency to fall into a micromanagement style of leadership.
Unfortunately, if this is your style, it often means that team members become disempowered and demotivated, display less innovation and creativity, and may also develop a dependence on you, which, of course, increases your load and therefore your chances of coming out. So again, not a great leadership style. Remember the good leaders actually create space for people to grow into and use trust to empower performance. Right. So, I actually think I watched a little bit of, Shane’s workshop on hiring in the Philippines. I don’t know if either of you guys were there, but I feel like he does a phenomenal job of trusting his team and his employees. So I feel like if you haven’t watched it, Cody, go back and watch it just purely even just for that.
Because I feel like his stance there and you can just say, like, he trusts them so much. And he also really embraces that growth mindset in his team. You know, that failure and mistakes are inevitable. And in fact, if you’re not having them, you’re not growing enough.
You’re not being challenged enough. So it’s about how you respond to them. So all of that stuff, I just feel like Shane is an excellent example. Oh, alright.
But which video was that that he did?
So I can write it down.
It’s I think it was called how to hire in the Philippines. Is that right, Marie? I can’t remember now. It’s, it’s on the CSP on the website. It’s the most recent recording. It’s up for this month.
Okay. Yeah. It’s on that whole it’s on the first page of CSP. I think it was, like, last week.
It might have been last Thursday.
Okay. Cool.
Yeah. Totally worth it. Yeah.
Yeah. Awesome.
So anyway, if you do find yourself getting tripped up here, and this applies to either of you, either of you in micromanager territory, Marina, nodding or maybe nodding at someone else. Sorry.
I think if I am not exactly sure of the outcome and I’m really worried about stuff Mhmm.
Then I’ll micromanage. But if I have a system in place and I can just say, there’s the SOP. Do the thing. This is what it looks like when it’s done. Like Joe said about paint it done. This is what the outcome should be, then do it.
Like, I yeah. I assigned something to my VA today. I was gonna do it myself, and then I was like, no. You have the VA.
That’s like, you need to train yourself to use the VA. Right? Mhmm. And so then, yeah, then I gave instruction.
I said, this is what it looks like when it’s done. And then I’m just trusting that it’s gonna show up like that or better.
Right? Perfect. So Yep. But it’s a choice. It doesn’t come natural necessarily.
Yes. You’re training yourself to do it. Right? You’re training yourself to let go a little bit. Yep. Sorry, Cody.
You were gonna say something, and I I just don’t know.
I’m I guess I just need to ask my husband how he feels.
He’ll probably say, yeah.
You know, and, like, I don’t really like how that looks. We’re in the same room. Maybe that’s part of the problem. I don’t know. But, I don’t know.
I haven’t worked with I haven’t hired, I guess, a lot of people yet to be able to tell for sure, but I do know that when he’s working on my website or something, I will have to go in there and fix things, you know, because things need to be a certain size for people to read it and stuff. And, you know, he might miss that, and so I’ll have to go in there and be like, okay. We need to make this. But that’s like a quality control thing, though. So I don’t really know if that’s considered micromanaging. I I’ve been managers in multiple different places, and people have always enjoyed working with me. And I’ve never been called a micromanager, so I don’t I don’t know.
Yep. Awesome. I mean, I feel like those are all good signs. And I feel like that example is, yeah, definitely a quality control. Right? It’s like you coming to look at the final product and making sure it does actually tick all the boxes before it goes what it goes live.
I think, too, something to say here, when you are starting to hire and when you are working with someone new and you’re still, you know, maybe it’s, you know, the first run or the first project you work with someone, remember that at the beginning, it’s much easier to trust the process, right, the SOP that you’ve helped create than it is to trust the person. But ideally, at some stage, that almost flips in that if you’ve hired the right person, you’ve supported them in the right way, and they are on board enough with your business and what you’re trying to achieve, they might be able to find a better way to do the thing.
Right? And by that point, because you’ve worked together, hopefully, for quite a period of time, you actually trust them. So I don’t know if that helps, but to begin with, if you are struggling a bit to let go of things, to stop controlling all the things, remember that if you’re building those SOPs, you can really trust those processes and the trust in the person and their abilities, and the creative thinking can actually come later. And that’s okay.
So I don’t know if that’s helpful, but, maybe it’s something to rip off.
If you do find yourself getting tripped up here with any micromanagement, sort of tendencies, it is actually helpful to focus on what you can control. So for example, those SOPs, so who you hire, what they do, and how you train and support them. That is absolutely under your control, and that is what you should be focusing on. That is your job. Those are some of your really big picture KPIs here when you’re moving into having a team.
To go a little bit further on this, it might even be helpful to write yourself a past or current and present or future job description so that you can see how your role has or will shift and how you can perform well within it.
So super simple example here, but let’s say you’re in the space now where you don’t have anyone helping you out with your content creation.
So maybe we’re just one of your key responsibilities of which I’m sure there are many, many, many might be that you create and distribute content. Now your KPI for that, which key performance indicator, I’m sure you’ve know that the lingo of that, obviously, is that, okay, if I post on Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTube five times per week, that’s a tick for me. And also because content is not just about getting stuff out there, but about how it actually flows back into your business. If that drives thirty sign ups per week to my workshop, then that’s also a tick. Right? That’s what I’m aiming for here with that key responsibility at the moment.
If or when you get to the place where you’re able to hire someone to take that content creation piece off your plate, your key responsibilities and therefore your KPIs are gonna change. So in this case, it might be that your key responsibilities now are are the facilitated quarterly content strategy meeting to support the content lead in their role and maybe that you sign off on key content pieces before distribution.
Because of that, your KPIs are gonna change again, and they may be things like, okay. First of all, I need to ensure that SOPs are up to date and easy to execute because if I can’t do that and put that in my content, they can’t do their job. It may also be that another KPI here might be something like you spend less than two hours a month on content related tasks. Right?
Because that’s a good indication for you that your content lead is actually doing their job and doing it well because rather than spending, you know, four hours a week, it’s now two hours a month. So again, maybe just thinking through things like that might actually help you see where your time and energy and effort needs to go now and how to actually measure the success of that. And this might be helpful to even if you’re not worried about micromanaging, but even if you’re just sort of wanting some help to make the shift between, you know, being a business of one or being the person who does most of the things to actually being a manager, just putting it down on paper can actually really help because we often do this for the job that we’re hiring for, but not for ourselves.
And of course, both things change when you make a hire. So, something to keep in mind. And my last point here, and then I’ll close this and we can use the rest of the time for any questions whatsoever.
One of the most important things you can do as a leader in your business is foster a growth mindset in yourself and your team.
So leverage failure and mistakes as a way to do better and model the kind of behavior that you want as a team. I feel like those are the most important things. They’re the big picture stuff. Right?
So if you can really nail that, I think the rest becomes much, much easier. And remember too that, of course, you know, being a manager or being a manager in this current business might be a new thing for you, too. So you’re going to learn some things along the way and you’re going to learn something the hard way. So I think if you take the pressure off yourself to be perfect from the outset and you’re more open to, again, being able to respond appropriately to mistakes that you might make, and being able to adapt processes and ways of working accordingly, I just think it’s gonna be a much more enjoyable and much more successful venture for you.
Let me stop sharing this so I can see your faces a bit better.
Any questions, comments, thoughts?
Well, I I really like that you put, like, how our jobs will change because I’m looking forward to that a lot because I don’t really I mean, I when it comes to, creating and distributing content, like, I just oh my gosh. I feel like I’m in this black hole right now with it because, I have all these other things to do in here. I have to, like, do all this. And I’m just like, this is, like, the bane of my existence. You know? It’s just awful.
Like, if I could have somebody if I just write it out, like, I like, Marina was talking earlier about carousels, and I’m like, those are horrible for me too because I don’t know what to put on them all the time. Like, is it too much information? Is it too little information? Like, how do I make it look good?
I don’t know. So, like, can I just write this and have somebody else, like a designer, put the carousel together? That’d be so nice. You know?
And then and reply to people and all that stuff. Like, that would be nice.
Awesome. Yeah. Oh, that’s good. I feel like this could almost be like a vision board for you in a way. It’s like, wow. All the stuff I can upload.
Well and if you watch that if you watch that, training that Shane did Mhmm.
He talks about how to get to that point where you like, how to systemize that systematize stuff. The unfortunate thing is that you have to be able to do it first yourself to make the SOP.
Right.
But I think that’s the current job description on this worksheet, right, is that we are doing the thing.
Mhmm.
And then the future pro the future job description is that somebody else is doing the thing, and the KPI, I’ll know that they’re doing the thing properly because now I have that time back, and I can do something else. Is that am I reading that right?
Yes. That’s right.
Yes. Yeah. Looking forward to that too.
Yeah. Because I feel like that KPI as well. So if the person isn’t doing a good job, you you’ll be spending more than two hours a month as well. So it’s also a good indication they’re doing their job well. Not that they’re just taken off your plate, but it’s like, cool. They’ve taken off my plate to the point where it’s working and I don’t have to worry about it. That’s an indication of a good hire and also an indication that you have done a good job as a manager in setting up and supporting that person to do the thing to the standard that you expect.
Does that make sense? Sorry.
I feel like your face is like, oh, no.
I did that. No. No. It does make sense. I’m like, I am committing to doing the social media stuff for two months, like, to create all of to because I’m in that current job description, and I’m like, okay. In order for me to get to the next to that future job description, then I have to go through this and make all the SOPs and do all of the things and create all of that so that I can move into that next job description.
And then, thankfully, we went over challenge one, and then I can just be really clear in my expectations for that position.
So then I can have these KPIs, meaning spending excellent, number of hours less time, blah blah blah, all that.
But it has to be very strategic.
Like, it seems like it’s it’s not just, like, willy nilly, oh, I’m gonna get this off my plate, but it, I feel like it’s like, okay. Very deliberate. I’m creating this so then I can do this.
Mhmm. And if I set set this job description up well and the SOPs up well, then I’m setting myself up for success so I don’t have to be friend a friend boss. Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Yes. Exactly. Yeah.
I know. It’s a big process. And I feel like the irony, of course, there’s always an irony of when you are hiring team members, you’re already feeling the squeeze. But then the time and effort required to build the SOPs, for example, and to find the right person is added stuff to your plate. Right? So it is a it is a long term play because things are probably gonna feel squishy in the next, you know, month or two for you. But then ideally, if you take the time to find the right person, you’ve taken the time to build those SOPs so that they are so easy to follow and you can trust them before you can trust the person necessarily, then, you know, a few months from now, happy days.
Surely, it’ll be a new challenge, but happy days for this particular thing.
Yeah. But then that we can handle a new challenge. That’s fine.
Totally. That’s how we grow. Yeah. Guys, well, thanks so much for coming. Thanks for all your excellent questions and, sharing so much about what has and hasn’t been working for you.
I’m in Slack, obviously. So please, if you have any follow-up questions or thoughts or if you find yourself in a scenario, Marina, maybe where you’re like, ah, shit. I don’t wanna respond like a friend, but how can I do this in a friendly leader sort of way? Please tag me.
I’m so happy to help in there. And, yeah, never be shy. I feel like I always be able to tag me, and I never do. So please please feel free.
Thank you.
Enjoy the rest of your day, and I’ll see you soon.
Yeah. Thank you for the session.
No worries. Bye. Bye, Tina.
Transcript
I’ve started a few more people might, join us, but that’s okay. They can catch up with where we are. So as you know today, the first fifteen minutes of this session will be training around the mindset of actually growing a team, and how to successfully sort of make that shift from being, the writer to being the leader in your business. Well I was actually wondering, just before we jump into that, I just need to know, out of the three of you, who already has a team or contractors or an employee?
Mhmm. Okay. Cool. That’s alright, Cody. And Marina and Kim, can you just talk through quickly who that team is or or who the who those those people are?
Sure.
So I have a VA that’s just, ten hours a month, and so I am delegating, some of the I was gonna say grunt work. That sounds really bad. But kind of the SOP, creating SOPs and, creating list of people for prospecting and those kind of things. Mhmm.
And then I have a digital business manager for ten hours a month, and she is, well, getting me organized because I’m writing a book. So she’s doing that. And then also client, management. So we currently have one client working through a system with her for that and then with the goal, of course, of building out more clients and having and then eventual goal of having her manage some of that more client side as I get more SOPs done and so on.
Awesome. Yeah. That’s very cool.
I have a part time business operations person, employee that does accounting and all that stuff that I hate doing. And then I also have two contract writers. One that’s part time, about thirty hours a week.
And she’s been working with me for a while, and I’m hope hoping actually to hire her full time one of these days soon. And then I have another contractor who just started who’s pretty part time.
Awesome. Okay. Great. Congrats, Kimarina. That’s awesome. And, Cody, it sounds like it’s all ahead for you. Is that right?
I do most of it. Yeah. I have somebody that helps me with my website. My husband, he uploads. I designed the website. He uploads it for me so that I’m I’m not spending all that time doing that, but that’s about as far as I’ve gotten.
Yeah. No. That is all good. I think that’s where we all start.
I just want to check with you then, Cody.
And, Kim, maybe for you two too. Although it’s Kim, it sounds like you’ve been maybe working with other people for a a little while in the business. While.
Yeah. I’ve I’ve been I’ve had my business for almost nine years now.
So Okay.
Awesome. And whereas, Marina, it sounds like your hires might might be newer. Although I’m just reading between the lines there, so that could be very incorrect.
No. So these hires are new. I have hired for I’m kind of a serial entrepreneur, and I’ve hired for various roles over the years.
But I’m looking forward to this session because I definitely can make use of it.
K. Cool. Well, before we dive into what’s on the worksheet, I just wanted to really quickly, just touch on the fact that if you are someone who is new to hiring or is about to hire for the first time, there may actually be a mindset shift to tackle, before you get into the space of bringing other people into the business. Because I think, what happens for most of us, right? This is where most of us start. I certainly started here too, is that at the beginning, because you have a business that is at least to begin with you delivering a core skill and delivering projects one on one, you can really quite easily start to over identify with your business. So your business becomes an extension of, or an expression of yourself.
And if you are in that space, from a mindset perspective, it is much, much more harder to bring people in to help you build and grow and create efficiencies within the business because you’re thinking of it as your little domain. Whereas if you’re able to de identify from the business a little bit and start to think of it as an asset that you manage, that is a really key mindset shift just to get to the place where you can start to identify who you should hire, what they can take off your plate and how they can actually help you manage that asset so it’s more profitable, more valuable, whatever that goal is for you. So as I said that that’s all I think it’s almost of you nod. Just wanted to check, is there anything that you want me to dive into more deeply before we get into what’s in the worksheet?
I think what you just said is a really good that’s a very good tip to start thinking about it like that. I I have a really hard time.
I’m not at all I’m like the opposite of a micromanager when it comes to anything to do with the business side of things. But when it comes to the writing, it is so hard for me to not, you know, rewrite or redo or, you know, edit extensively.
Mhmm. And so, yeah, that’s helpful.
Yes. Yeah. So letting go of that is hard. Yeah. I totally get it. Absolutely. Uh-huh.
Yep. And I think, one thing that’s also helpful to keep in mind there with that specific example is that really what you should be promising clients who come to you for your services is an outcome. Right?
So it’s less about promising them that you will do all of that copy and everything will be overseen by you. People will come to you because they wanna get the outcome of what your copy offers. So I think it’s a subtle shift, but if you can think of that, it can actually be easier to then work with other writers in a way that gives them the space to do really great work.
Of course, you know, it doesn’t mean that you don’t oversee what they do and you don’t copy chief, but it can just make letting go and giving that little bit of space that that little bit easier, if you think of that because really, we are selling outcomes to our clients. Right? We’re not we’re not selling it. Well, we should we shouldn’t be selling like ourselves in terms of, you know, this is exactly what I’m gonna do, especially when we’re in a growth phase of our business. So I don’t know if that makes sense, but, hopefully, that can be a helpful little chestnut to to take with you.
So quick follow-up to that.
In the previous q and a today, we were talking about branding and my brand, and I need a personal brand and so on. And, true, working on it, all of that.
So how do you then think of your business as not an extension of you? So I’m I’d like to build out an agency. There’s no way that I can possibly do all the work that I am envisioning that I want this to be. Not even possible. But on the other side, so the business needs a brand.
Mhmm. But then, also, I am developing a personal brand. So how does your personal brand and your business brand, like, how did those come together? So you’re not, like, I am not promising that I’m going to be doing the work. The company will be doing the work, and that’s founded on that.
So the business will have a reputation as such, but then as a personality kind of belonging to that because I think of it as an alter ego. Like, it’s me, but it’s not me. Right?
So it’s that alter ego that belongs to or is connected to the business.
So how do you, present and grow those two things kind of simultaneously without people thinking that it’s that you are that?
Brand?
Such a good question. So I think just as your personal brand and the way that you show up within that, so the values you share, the ideas you have, the way you think through things, just as that will attract ideal prospects for you. It should also help you attract your ideal team, right, so that you are able to create a team that aligns with your values and your vision. And, of course, remember that part of your job as a manager or leader will be training and support.
So even though it’s not you doing all the work, as you said, it’s an agency model is where you’re where you’re headed, the fact that you are, you know, at the helm of that ship, I guess, means that you’re the one who’s driving the culture of that organization. You’re the one who’s setting the standards.
You’re the one who is, you know, signing off on the big things before they go out into the world. So I think if you think about it from that perspective, you can see how your personal brand can absolutely still help people see what it is that your business offers specifically, what gives you that business your, you know, the edge it has, what, gives it its USP. So, you know, the personal brand will help with those things. And it still doesn’t mean that it has to be you doing everything. Right? Because you have infused those values, that training, those structures through the business itself so that everything that operates within it is a representation of and in alignment with the personal brand. Does that make sense?
So sort of like I’m just trying to filter through.
So thinking about this personal brand and they’re sort of the face of the business representing the business Mhmm. Culture and ideology and so on, and then the business is is the outcomes.
So the the personal brand is that point of connection and culture, and then the business is upholding, fulfilling the promises, I guess, of that. Is that kind of Yes.
So they’re integrated because if I change the personal brand, then I attract different people.
Mhmm. But regardless of what brand that ends up being on the personal side, this the role of the business is then to uphold, complete the promises or deliver on all the promises, that the personal brand kind of embodies.
Is that Yes. Kind of?
Yeah. That’s right. So there’s a synergy between them. Right? And they’re helping feed and support each other, and they’re helping build the reputation and uphold the reputation of each other.
And yet it’s still not that you need to be the person in the business doing all the things because you’re the face of that business. I mean, think of Jo. I think of copy hackers. Right?
I mean, she’s the face of copy hackers. Right? But she’s also certainly not the person who’s writing all the copy for all the clients. You know?
She’s is probably involved on some level, but she has a team of copywriters who are doing that for her. She has an agency doing that for her. But you know because she’s the face of the business that if you were at an event where she was on stage, you’d absolutely get a taste of how she thinks, what her values are, who she likes to work with, what kind of results you might be able to expect from working with her. Right?
So she’s sort of like the marketing of the business in a way. And then, you know, she’s obviously she’s responsible as, you know, the leader of copy hackers to make sure that the agency in the business does deliver on those things and follow through, but she’s not the one necessarily in the weeds doing all of those things on a micro level. Does that make sense? Right.
Yes. And then people have confidence in that personal brand because then like, thinking about Jo, obviously, they know Jo is not doing all of the stuff.
Okay.
But because they align with her thinking and, like, how she does stuff and her epic, like, all of those things Mhmm.
Then they move forward with the business because they trust they trust kind of the front person.
And so then all of the the businesses, the worker bees, were doing the stuff that is Mhmm. By that front person.
Absolutely. And they also part of that trust of of Jo in that scenario is that she would not let a project be delivered that doesn’t meet her standards.
Yes.
Yes. So that’s an important piece too. So it also helps you, I guess, define your role as a team leader or as a manager because it’s like, okay. All of a sudden, like, I have to really repay my prospects trust in me that even though it’s not me personally creating all these deliverables or doing all the, you know, messy down in the weeds work, they’re trusting me that it’s gonna be delivered to a standard equality that I would be really proud to stand behind and that aligns with everything I put out into the world.
So I don’t know if that is helping further or my hand is yeah.
Well, so then it’s kind of like you’ve got the the gatekeeper. She’s not gonna let any projects come in that she can’t deliver on. And then once they’re past sort of her the gate, her as the gate, and the work is being done. And before the work heads out again, it there’s that kind of quality check.
Yes. Absolutely. Okay.
I know you can’t see what it’s in my head, but I’m like, okay. I’m getting the visual. This is good.
No. I love I’m loving your hands. I talk with my hands too. So I’m like, yes. My hand talking friends.
Okay.
Perfect.
Questions on that, Kim or Cody, or any comments before we move into things on a, I guess, a slightly different level?
No. I just agree with her. I mean I mean, with everything that was said because I’ve been doing this too for a long time. I started in twenty seventeen, so I’ve had to figure out my brand multiple, multiple times.
And so, yeah, it is it can be confusing at first, but I think just realizing that the brand is just, like, the face of the business and then everything else that gets delivered on the back end there is, like, you just wanna uphold your brand, right, by making sure you’re delivering what you say you’re gonna deliver. And you’re the one out there with the messages. You’re the one out there, like, saying all the things right, but then then you have, like, that quality check. Right?
Like, if I hire a bunch of people, there’s no way that I’m not gonna look over that and be like, we need to make sure this is right before we stick it out there because the brand is on the line. Right?
Yes. I love that. Yeah. Your reputation’s on the line. The trust that you have with your prospects and your customers is on the line as well. So, yes, the synergy between those two things has to be really on point.
But I mean, listen to you guys. You obviously give a shit. Right? You really care about that. So you’re not going to be the kind of people who’s just going to say all the right things as your personal brand and bring all the people in and then just, you know, let whatever was going to happen happen. Right? You’re going to be on top of it.
Okay, alright.
Sorry we have a little bit less time for questions than I thought but that’s okay, let me dive into the worksheet just so we can talk a little bit more deeply about two of the key mindset problems that I see pop up for most people when they are actually hiring or building a team. Let me just share my screen.
Okay. Hopefully, you guys can see the worksheet. Just give me a yeah. Okay. Perfect. Right.
Sorry. I feel like your faces are always right where I need to press a button, which is my bad. Okay. So, just to dive into this a bit further, so I guess what we’ve talked about there is the, you know, the very first mindset shift that needs to happen before you’re in a place where you are ready, able, and excited to hire a team, right, to start outsourcing bits of your work, that are really important to you. Right. It’s not that you’re outsourcing the stuff that you don’t care about, even if it is, you know, that grunt work and those little itty bitty pieces, they are often the foundations of what allows you to do, you know, the really flashy, fun, exciting work. So it is all really important.
Now the thing that I think we’ve just touched on, is that I have a mistake now.
Sorry. There we go. If you have been operating as a business of one for a while now, you’re used to doing all of the things and having control over all the things and letting go of this is often one of the trickiest parts of the shift. Right. Because when you are not the person doing the thing, of course, there’s room for error. Right. Or at least it feels like there’s more room for error than there would normally be.
On top of that, the kind of leaders or managers you’ve had in the past will almost certainly shape the way you show up for your own people, which can be problematic for the simple fact that we often overcorrect.
So the example I’ve got here is if you’ve had a team leader in the past who was really harsh and unsupportive, we might be overly kind and flexible as a result of that. And of course, that kind of leadership approach, is actually detrimental to your team and your business. Even though it might feel like you’ve been a very nice kind person, it does mean that you’re probably not doing the job as you should be doing it.
On top of those two things, leading others often creates a whole new space for our own maladaptive tendencies to flourish if left unchecked. So that things like people pleasing, perfectionism, all those kind of lovely traits that we all have, you know, at least one or two of, they get a whole new platform to, show up in if we are not on top of them and aware of when they may be at play, and what they might actually look like.
So when I work with people who are about to hire or often more often than not, it’s actually when they’re moving from just having a VA, you know, a handful of hours a month to actually have someone who is either more senior, more involved in the actual client deliverables. So like a writer, or someone who is more embedded in the business, so someone who may actually be an employee rather than a contractor.
The two challenges that I see come up ninety percent of the time, the first one of those is a fear of being unlikable.
Now this is definitely the one I fell into early on. I am at heart a people pleaser. So this is my trap, right? So if this is resonating with you too, you’re in good company.
But the fear of being a like will often leads to a tendency to pull into a friendship model of leadership, which is problematic for a whole host of reasons. Namely, you’re likely to avoid tough conversations, gloss things over, set nebulous expectations, hold loose boundaries, be lax on accountability, and let people operate within their comfort zone one hundred percent of the time, which ultimately leads to them having no opportunities to grow and develop. Right. So you’re not being a good leader and you’re not fostering an environment for your employees or your contractors to actually do good work.
So remember here that good leadership is not about being liked. Right. And maybe we can all think of someone in the past, whether it was in the previous business we had or when we worked maybe nine to five, who was a really great leader, but who maybe we didn’t really like that much on a personal level. Right. They’re separate things.
So being a good leader is really about helping people realize their potential, and being a friend to someone first and a leader second is not the best way to do that.
So if you do find yourself getting tripped up here, you’re likely someone who needs some level of warmth in their leadership style, because it is important that you are a leader in your own authentic way. Right? It’s not about fitting a certain mold, and trying to fake it till you make it because you’ve been told this is how certain good leaders work. It’s about finding a way to be yourself and be really natural and authentic, in that role. Because at the end of the day, that’s what’s going to be sustainable. And it’s also what’s going to help infuse your business and the people that work for you, with that culture, right? With that essence of you that we have just been talking about.
So it may help if this is resonating with you to think about the difference between being a friend to someone and being friend Lee.
So I’ve got a table here for you and we can if this is resonating, we can spend some time now going through some situations and sort of brainstorm what the difference in response here might be between a friend and a friendly leader. But just as an example, so let’s say you have a contractor, maybe a subcontractor who helps you with your copywriting projects and they fail to deliver a key piece of work on time. And let’s just say it’s for the first time ever, right? Because if this is a pattern that you’re seeing within them, obviously, it’s time to let them go.
In this situation, a friend might say, oh, don’t worry and just do the work for them. Right? They’re going to jump in. They’re going to take on that load and they’re going to fix the problem themselves without any real consequence to that contractor who has missed the mark.
On the other hand, a friendly leader might do something like work really quickly to find a solution in the here and now. Right. Because it’s obviously really important that that key piece of work gets done and gets to where it needs to go. But after that’s happened, take the time to understand what actually happened and whether there’s something that either they or the contractor could do to prevent the same thing from happening in the future. So having that kind of conversation after the fact, lays down really clear expectations or reinforces clear expectations.
It is also a way to collaborate with that person. And collaboration, I think, is such a key part of good leadership, right? You’re on the same team, quite literally. You’re working towards the same kind of goals. So it’s about, okay, how can we actually support each other to get there, to get this business closer to the vision I actually have for it?
So in that way, if you take that approach, clear expectations, clear boundaries, maybe new SOPs, right, if that’s what’s necessary, but also really clear accountability for that person. So you’ve agreed on something that next time they have that task, if they again fail to deliver on time. Okay. That’s a really clear indication that something here is not going to work. You are not filling your role. It’s time to part ways.
So any questions on that or otherwise, any situations you can think of that you have either had or really worried about how having, and you would like to talk through how you may respond in a more effective way? If if not, that’s okay. Yep.
Marina, it was a quick hand.
Sorry.
Yes. This is, this is me.
So friendly versus friend.
So where are, like, the conversation boundaries? Like, I like to be collaborative, and then I start using we language.
Mhmm. Right? Like, we should do this, and when this happens, we should, and this is our and, like, all of that kind of.
And then but the bottom line is, at the end of the day, the buck stops with me. The buck doesn’t stop with the other person. Right?
So how can I be And then, I take on, yeah, take on some things because I’m like, oh, well, that’s probably asking too much? So I’ll do this. And then because it’s this, like, oh, well, we’re on the same level. We’re on the same team. We’re on the same level.
So how can you be friendly?
Okay.
Like, kindness is sort of my overarching, like that’s why I operate. I think, k, kindness is the filter for everything. So how can you be kind and friendly while still having exacting standards? Like, this is what I expect.
This is Mhmm. What needs to happen. This is when it needs to happen.
But then if it doesn’t, then then how can you still be friendly, and not take that friend route where you’re like, oh, I’m really disappointed, but we’ll figure it out Mhmm.
Which isn’t really the answer. And then you’re just kind of, like, angsty and not really wanting to look the person in the eye because every time you do, then you’re like, last time they let me down.
Mhmm. Right?
So how do you how do you I don’t know what I’m trying to ask.
That would be the best. That would be the best. Be more that friendly leader.
Mhmm. Yes. And I love the way you describe that too. It’s like, ah, I found myself in a hell of my own making. Pretty much.
So a quick question for you first. Is it that you find it really hard to identify the expectations you wanna set or to communicate those?
I find it hard to communicate those primarily well, let’s just say that my husband and I have tried working together on things. There is a point to this. And he’s like, you’re really hard to work for because and then I worked my brother and I did a SaaS startup, and we kinda went here on fire for three years. And I’m, like, here’s the goal.
Let’s go for the goal. Drive. Drive. Drive. And I forget that people have lives, and I just, like, drive.
Like, I can do the thing.
And so then then I try to have this, like, oh, okay. I need to breathe a little bit so I can be easier to work with. But I still like, I have goals, and I wanna get to those goals. And I wanna I want people to come alongside. It’s gonna be beneficial for them, beneficial for me. Like, let’s do good work together.
But then I find, I’m a hard driver. Like, I drive really hard, and so I don’t wanna burn people out. So then I end up going way too far on the other side being that brand.
Mhmm.
Which then is just not really. Like, it’s this facade because inside, I’m like, come on. Like, if we wanna get this goal, then we need these deadlines. And, sure, they’re arbitrary, but I set them because that’s how we’re gonna get this goal. Right?
Mhmm. Mhmm.
I don’t I can’t remember what the question was even now.
Oh, no.
Sorry. I’m like, I drive too I drive too hard. So I’m like, how can I, yeah, have reasonable expectations for people so that it can be friendly, and then I don’t have to, like, pretend that I’m buddy buddy to try to, like, get them to work more?
Yes. And as you were sharing, another question came up for me, and that was and this may be like, the answer may be no, but I just wanna check.
Is there an element that you think you’re falling more into being really friendly because you think you set the bar so high? Like, your expectations of maybe the pace of work or the volume of work is so high that you feel like you need to counter that with, like, all that, like yeah. Totally.
Yeah.
Because I’m like, well, maybe if I’m really nice, then oh, now you’re knowing all my secrets.
But but it’s just kind of like this okay. Well, if I’m nice and collaborative and try to be good to work with, then maybe they’ll keep up the pace and we can do this. But if Mhmm. If I fall into the, like okay.
Well, this is due on this day. This is due on this day. How are you doing on this? And, like, more, just results oriented, then I feel like I’m gonna lose them.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Interesting.
I mean, I think we could do a whole therapy session on this because this must come from somewhere.
No.
We won’t go.
We won’t go there today.
She’s totally of its own, like, its own delusion.
So first of all, it is okay. And it is even really wonderful to be both kind and ambitious.
You can be both those things and you should own both those things, right? I think the worst possible approach to things here is that you’re not open about how ambitious you are and how much you expect people to keep pace with you when you bring them on. Because there are people out there who will be excited by that, who work like you, who think like you, who are like, yes, this is awesome. Like, let’s go.
I want to do this with you. So I think that’s really going to be a really key piece for you, right? To have those expectations really clear and to lead with those when you start to hire someone or you start to onboard someone, because I think if it’s a surprise to them, right, and then as you start to try and get them to do the things you want them to do on your timeline, you know, they’re probably going to be some pushback or some freak out. And that’s when you are going to kick into friend mode because you’re going to be like, why can’t I do?
You know, they might be about to run away from me. So let’s let’s bring it back and let’s dial it back in. But of course, that’s not helping either of you because it means that you’re stuck in this place of frustration and feeling like you’re just not getting what you need from them. And your employee or your contractor is also stuck in a place where they feel like expectations are muddy.
You know, sometimes she feels like she just wants so much from me. But then the way she communicates about that, it’s kind of, like, really lax. And, like, I feel like I’m not being held to any sort of deadline or any sort of, you know, really clear boundary around this. So I actually think for you specifically, a huge part of this is just gonna be around clarity of communicating expectations and also finding a way to be able to, like, KPI those things.
Like, okay, let’s look at this. How are we gonna know when this is actually done or achieved?
Because I think if you can clearly identify that and the person that you’re training and upskilling can get on board with those things, that also takes some stuff off your plate. Right? Because you’re not gonna need to check-in with them every, you know, morning, like, how’s it going? They’ll know.
They’ll be like, okay. I’m tracking towards this. Here’s here’s where I’m at. That’s the update.
I’m okay. I don’t need help. Let me keep going.
So is any of this sort of helping?
Yes. I think that that is I’m afraid of, like, scaring people away by saying, this is what I expect.
Uh-huh. And and I expect that, and you’ll be compensated well. And when we win, you’ll get a piece of that.
But but I’m afraid of saying that because then I think, well, maybe they’re gonna think it’s too much work and but then they’re not really the right person to work with anyway.
Exactly.
If so that’s why you need to be clear about it and say it upfront. Right? And this is a probably a good example too of, like, your personal brand attracting the right people to help you bring that to life in your business. Right?
You know, you’re ambitious. You wanna get things done. That’s great. So talk about that and the people who are gonna fit that out there.
Right? I mean, there may be a point at which I don’t I don’t know. I feel like you can’t expect someone to work, for example, like, you know, sixteen hour days every day. So but I don’t think it’s about that.
Right?
No.
It’s I think it’s more like about I want people to be on board.
Like, let’s Mhmm. Let’s all be working towards the same goal. Like, every the jobs that I get people to do are important because if they don’t do them, even if they’re admin tasks if they don’t do those admin tasks well, everything else suffers too. Right?
Mhmm.
So it’s not a matter of whose job is more important. It’s like do your job with excellence. Mhmm. Yes.
I love that. You know, I would like, I mean, not now. I’ve said in my life, I would love to work for you. You know, I feel like the more you can communicate this, the better, because it is going to resonate with people and you’re talking there about values too. And I actually think that what you shared just then is gonna be really empowering for the right people to hear. Like, oh, cool. Like, my piece of the pie is really important.
Here’s how it all fits in together. Right? Because that, I think, adds accountability and also motivation. Like it incentivizes them to do the job and to do it well if they can see how it fits into the big picture.
So I think, again, there’s probably a piece in there that, like, after you’ve communicated that again, getting really clear on KPIs and setting them up so that they can actually, you know, almost automate because they’re humans. But, you know, maybe there’s something there where they can preemptively check-in with you and let you know where they’re up to so that you’re not in a space of like worrying about that or worrying about having to push them too hard to get to the place because you have visibility on where they’re at and how that aligns with your timelines.
How does that fit? Like, the the VA that I have, she’s doing that. Like, she’s like, oh, by the way, I did this. This is what I tried.
This is the outcome. Do you want like, she’s, like, checking in, and she’s not asking me how to do things. She’s just saying, here’s the update. Here’s what I did.
Here so many hours I have left. Here’s the projects that are and I’m like, I love you. Like Right.
That’s that’s what I’m I mean yeah.
So Great. This is really helpful. I don’t wanna hog at the time, though, but I’m like, wow. This is I saw that this was coming up, and I was like, okay. This is this is timely. This is good.
I gotta be there. Awesome. And I too, like, remember that every time you work with someone and I know I’ve done it before, but this is, you know, the new highs in this current business, everything’s a learning opportunity for you too. Right? So take the time to reflect on what’s working well and what’s not, and know that you can actually take those reflections to that person and share them openly so that you can talk about what’s working for you and what’s not, because you may find that the things that aren’t working for you are also not working for them. Right. And then you’ve got two people working in silence in a way that does not suit either of them.
Right.
I think open honest communication can really go a long way. And I think for you, it’s really important to start that at the point of hiring and be really open and clear and transparent with expectations and their piece and their part in the business and in the vision, because I think that will empower and attract the right people, which I think will probably be half of the battle. Right?
Yeah. I think so. Thank you. Pleasure. Cody, I hope some of this is at least helpful for you.
It is.
I like, my husband too, and he still needs a lot of things.
Right? And and it’s funny because it’s just like sometimes, you know, like, he won’t stay on task. And so I feel like I’m, you know, getting, like, drilling him a little bit because I need these pages done by a certain time, and you agreed to do it. And I’ll, like, come in there, and he’ll be, like, checking his crypto charts.
Or I’m like, what are you doing? You know? Like, okay. Maybe what we need to do is set, like, a schedule.
Like, okay. Between this hour and this hour, you’re only gonna work on this. You know? So stay focused.
Right?
Those kinds of things. But I definitely, I can relate with you a lot with a lot of the things that you said because I have similar situation.
Awesome. Well, it’s I always feel like it’s so good to know in these workshops that, one, you’re not alone, but, also, it’s really good when you get to learn through someone else’s conversation. So I’m glad that some of that was relevant, Cody. That’s awesome.
Yeah. And I really liked when you said to be open about your expectations. Right? Because hiring somebody you know, with him, it’s different.
Obviously, we live together. He’s just helping me. Right? Like, just until I can hire someone else to do it.
And, it’s just really eye opening to be like, okay. Yeah. Communicate that. Even in your brand, that you value those things, that you value being open, like, that you value, that you can that people care about the outcome of your work or that we meet deadlines or that we stay on task, those kinds of things.
Right?
Yep. Absolutely. It’s never too early to start communicating those those values about how and why you work, hundred percent. And, also, this is a slide night, guys. Like, I’m impressed that whether you can work with your husband.
I cannot imagine my husband and I working together because I feel like it’s really hard when you have an existing relationship with someone, right? Because then you’ve got dual relationships and it’s like, well, am I your wife or am I your manager? Like, so I feel like that’s an added layer of challenge. So kudos to both of you for making it work for certain periods of time.
I’m just grateful that he does help. So I try not to push very hard because I don’t, you know, I don’t want him to be like, well, you know what? I’m not gonna help you at all.
But at the same time, like, he agreed to help me, and I want you to follow through with what you said you’re gonna do. You know? So Mhmm. There is a balance but we work really well as a team like that.
So Awesome.
Yeah. That’s what I just wanna say, which may not be relevant, but just as a point, generally so it might not be relevant for you, Cody, but just generally when you said like you find him and he’s checking out his, he said stocks or something. I can’t remember.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It’s it’s funny too, because I wonder if that in a way is a really good example of how our expectations around how work gets done and the time it takes can be more problematic than helpful because the goal really is that people are reaching the outcomes at the time we need them to be reached by. Right? Like, you know, you could put all three of us in an office together, and if we all had the same task to complete by five PM, I’m sure we’d all go about it in a totally different way. You know, I’d probably be often having a swim in the sea for an hour in the morning because that’s how I work, but doesn’t mean that I’m not going to do the thing to the right standard by the right time. So just, you know, something to just think about, as you go about and hire people and build a team.
No. I really I I really appreciate that too, and I agree. We all do it differently.
My experience, the only reason why I didn’t really appreciate walking into that is because he is more of a like, he’s not very good with deadlines. He straight up told me he doesn’t like deadlines.
He doesn’t Mhmm. Get into deadlines, these kinds of things.
I’m like, well, then we don’t we need them for, like, at least, like, somewhere to, you know, focus. We can’t just not have, like, a goal at all. You know? So Yes.
Tricky. But yeah. Yeah. I I agree. And I think that your point there is really good too. As long as people are getting the job done and they’re doing the work to a decent standard, a good standard, your standard, then I think it doesn’t matter how they get there ultimately. So I I totally agree.
Yep. Awesome. Alright. Well, let’s talk some time. I think we’ve got two minutes. Let’s talk about the other really common mindset challenge, which is fear of losing control, which, as you can imagine, often leads to a tendency to fall into a micromanagement style of leadership.
Unfortunately, if this is your style, it often means that team members become disempowered and demotivated, display less innovation and creativity, and may also develop a dependence on you, which, of course, increases your load and therefore your chances of coming out. So again, not a great leadership style. Remember the good leaders actually create space for people to grow into and use trust to empower performance. Right. So, I actually think I watched a little bit of, Shane’s workshop on hiring in the Philippines. I don’t know if either of you guys were there, but I feel like he does a phenomenal job of trusting his team and his employees. So I feel like if you haven’t watched it, Cody, go back and watch it just purely even just for that.
Because I feel like his stance there and you can just say, like, he trusts them so much. And he also really embraces that growth mindset in his team. You know, that failure and mistakes are inevitable. And in fact, if you’re not having them, you’re not growing enough.
You’re not being challenged enough. So it’s about how you respond to them. So all of that stuff, I just feel like Shane is an excellent example. Oh, alright.
But which video was that that he did?
So I can write it down.
It’s I think it was called how to hire in the Philippines. Is that right, Marie? I can’t remember now. It’s, it’s on the CSP on the website. It’s the most recent recording. It’s up for this month.
Okay. Yeah. It’s on that whole it’s on the first page of CSP. I think it was, like, last week.
It might have been last Thursday.
Okay. Cool.
Yeah. Totally worth it. Yeah.
Yeah. Awesome.
So anyway, if you do find yourself getting tripped up here, and this applies to either of you, either of you in micromanager territory, Marina, nodding or maybe nodding at someone else. Sorry.
I think if I am not exactly sure of the outcome and I’m really worried about stuff Mhmm.
Then I’ll micromanage. But if I have a system in place and I can just say, there’s the SOP. Do the thing. This is what it looks like when it’s done. Like Joe said about paint it done. This is what the outcome should be, then do it.
Like, I yeah. I assigned something to my VA today. I was gonna do it myself, and then I was like, no. You have the VA.
That’s like, you need to train yourself to use the VA. Right? Mhmm. And so then, yeah, then I gave instruction.
I said, this is what it looks like when it’s done. And then I’m just trusting that it’s gonna show up like that or better.
Right? Perfect. So Yep. But it’s a choice. It doesn’t come natural necessarily.
Yes. You’re training yourself to do it. Right? You’re training yourself to let go a little bit. Yep. Sorry, Cody.
You were gonna say something, and I I just don’t know.
I’m I guess I just need to ask my husband how he feels.
He’ll probably say, yeah.
You know, and, like, I don’t really like how that looks. We’re in the same room. Maybe that’s part of the problem. I don’t know. But, I don’t know.
I haven’t worked with I haven’t hired, I guess, a lot of people yet to be able to tell for sure, but I do know that when he’s working on my website or something, I will have to go in there and fix things, you know, because things need to be a certain size for people to read it and stuff. And, you know, he might miss that, and so I’ll have to go in there and be like, okay. We need to make this. But that’s like a quality control thing, though. So I don’t really know if that’s considered micromanaging. I I’ve been managers in multiple different places, and people have always enjoyed working with me. And I’ve never been called a micromanager, so I don’t I don’t know.
Yep. Awesome. I mean, I feel like those are all good signs. And I feel like that example is, yeah, definitely a quality control. Right? It’s like you coming to look at the final product and making sure it does actually tick all the boxes before it goes what it goes live.
I think, too, something to say here, when you are starting to hire and when you are working with someone new and you’re still, you know, maybe it’s, you know, the first run or the first project you work with someone, remember that at the beginning, it’s much easier to trust the process, right, the SOP that you’ve helped create than it is to trust the person. But ideally, at some stage, that almost flips in that if you’ve hired the right person, you’ve supported them in the right way, and they are on board enough with your business and what you’re trying to achieve, they might be able to find a better way to do the thing.
Right? And by that point, because you’ve worked together, hopefully, for quite a period of time, you actually trust them. So I don’t know if that helps, but to begin with, if you are struggling a bit to let go of things, to stop controlling all the things, remember that if you’re building those SOPs, you can really trust those processes and the trust in the person and their abilities, and the creative thinking can actually come later. And that’s okay.
So I don’t know if that’s helpful, but, maybe it’s something to rip off.
If you do find yourself getting tripped up here with any micromanagement, sort of tendencies, it is actually helpful to focus on what you can control. So for example, those SOPs, so who you hire, what they do, and how you train and support them. That is absolutely under your control, and that is what you should be focusing on. That is your job. Those are some of your really big picture KPIs here when you’re moving into having a team.
To go a little bit further on this, it might even be helpful to write yourself a past or current and present or future job description so that you can see how your role has or will shift and how you can perform well within it.
So super simple example here, but let’s say you’re in the space now where you don’t have anyone helping you out with your content creation.
So maybe we’re just one of your key responsibilities of which I’m sure there are many, many, many might be that you create and distribute content. Now your KPI for that, which key performance indicator, I’m sure you’ve know that the lingo of that, obviously, is that, okay, if I post on Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTube five times per week, that’s a tick for me. And also because content is not just about getting stuff out there, but about how it actually flows back into your business. If that drives thirty sign ups per week to my workshop, then that’s also a tick. Right? That’s what I’m aiming for here with that key responsibility at the moment.
If or when you get to the place where you’re able to hire someone to take that content creation piece off your plate, your key responsibilities and therefore your KPIs are gonna change. So in this case, it might be that your key responsibilities now are are the facilitated quarterly content strategy meeting to support the content lead in their role and maybe that you sign off on key content pieces before distribution.
Because of that, your KPIs are gonna change again, and they may be things like, okay. First of all, I need to ensure that SOPs are up to date and easy to execute because if I can’t do that and put that in my content, they can’t do their job. It may also be that another KPI here might be something like you spend less than two hours a month on content related tasks. Right?
Because that’s a good indication for you that your content lead is actually doing their job and doing it well because rather than spending, you know, four hours a week, it’s now two hours a month. So again, maybe just thinking through things like that might actually help you see where your time and energy and effort needs to go now and how to actually measure the success of that. And this might be helpful to even if you’re not worried about micromanaging, but even if you’re just sort of wanting some help to make the shift between, you know, being a business of one or being the person who does most of the things to actually being a manager, just putting it down on paper can actually really help because we often do this for the job that we’re hiring for, but not for ourselves.
And of course, both things change when you make a hire. So, something to keep in mind. And my last point here, and then I’ll close this and we can use the rest of the time for any questions whatsoever.
One of the most important things you can do as a leader in your business is foster a growth mindset in yourself and your team.
So leverage failure and mistakes as a way to do better and model the kind of behavior that you want as a team. I feel like those are the most important things. They’re the big picture stuff. Right?
So if you can really nail that, I think the rest becomes much, much easier. And remember too that, of course, you know, being a manager or being a manager in this current business might be a new thing for you, too. So you’re going to learn some things along the way and you’re going to learn something the hard way. So I think if you take the pressure off yourself to be perfect from the outset and you’re more open to, again, being able to respond appropriately to mistakes that you might make, and being able to adapt processes and ways of working accordingly, I just think it’s gonna be a much more enjoyable and much more successful venture for you.
Let me stop sharing this so I can see your faces a bit better.
Any questions, comments, thoughts?
Well, I I really like that you put, like, how our jobs will change because I’m looking forward to that a lot because I don’t really I mean, I when it comes to, creating and distributing content, like, I just oh my gosh. I feel like I’m in this black hole right now with it because, I have all these other things to do in here. I have to, like, do all this. And I’m just like, this is, like, the bane of my existence. You know? It’s just awful.
Like, if I could have somebody if I just write it out, like, I like, Marina was talking earlier about carousels, and I’m like, those are horrible for me too because I don’t know what to put on them all the time. Like, is it too much information? Is it too little information? Like, how do I make it look good?
I don’t know. So, like, can I just write this and have somebody else, like a designer, put the carousel together? That’d be so nice. You know?
And then and reply to people and all that stuff. Like, that would be nice.
Awesome. Yeah. Oh, that’s good. I feel like this could almost be like a vision board for you in a way. It’s like, wow. All the stuff I can upload.
Well and if you watch that if you watch that, training that Shane did Mhmm.
He talks about how to get to that point where you like, how to systemize that systematize stuff. The unfortunate thing is that you have to be able to do it first yourself to make the SOP.
Right.
But I think that’s the current job description on this worksheet, right, is that we are doing the thing.
Mhmm.
And then the future pro the future job description is that somebody else is doing the thing, and the KPI, I’ll know that they’re doing the thing properly because now I have that time back, and I can do something else. Is that am I reading that right?
Yes. That’s right.
Yes. Yeah. Looking forward to that too.
Yeah. Because I feel like that KPI as well. So if the person isn’t doing a good job, you you’ll be spending more than two hours a month as well. So it’s also a good indication they’re doing their job well. Not that they’re just taken off your plate, but it’s like, cool. They’ve taken off my plate to the point where it’s working and I don’t have to worry about it. That’s an indication of a good hire and also an indication that you have done a good job as a manager in setting up and supporting that person to do the thing to the standard that you expect.
Does that make sense? Sorry.
I feel like your face is like, oh, no.
I did that. No. No. It does make sense. I’m like, I am committing to doing the social media stuff for two months, like, to create all of to because I’m in that current job description, and I’m like, okay. In order for me to get to the next to that future job description, then I have to go through this and make all the SOPs and do all of the things and create all of that so that I can move into that next job description.
And then, thankfully, we went over challenge one, and then I can just be really clear in my expectations for that position.
So then I can have these KPIs, meaning spending excellent, number of hours less time, blah blah blah, all that.
But it has to be very strategic.
Like, it seems like it’s it’s not just, like, willy nilly, oh, I’m gonna get this off my plate, but it, I feel like it’s like, okay. Very deliberate. I’m creating this so then I can do this.
Mhmm. And if I set set this job description up well and the SOPs up well, then I’m setting myself up for success so I don’t have to be friend a friend boss. Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Yes. Exactly. Yeah.
I know. It’s a big process. And I feel like the irony, of course, there’s always an irony of when you are hiring team members, you’re already feeling the squeeze. But then the time and effort required to build the SOPs, for example, and to find the right person is added stuff to your plate. Right? So it is a it is a long term play because things are probably gonna feel squishy in the next, you know, month or two for you. But then ideally, if you take the time to find the right person, you’ve taken the time to build those SOPs so that they are so easy to follow and you can trust them before you can trust the person necessarily, then, you know, a few months from now, happy days.
Surely, it’ll be a new challenge, but happy days for this particular thing.
Yeah. But then that we can handle a new challenge. That’s fine.
Totally. That’s how we grow. Yeah. Guys, well, thanks so much for coming. Thanks for all your excellent questions and, sharing so much about what has and hasn’t been working for you.
I’m in Slack, obviously. So please, if you have any follow-up questions or thoughts or if you find yourself in a scenario, Marina, maybe where you’re like, ah, shit. I don’t wanna respond like a friend, but how can I do this in a friendly leader sort of way? Please tag me.
I’m so happy to help in there. And, yeah, never be shy. I feel like I always be able to tag me, and I never do. So please please feel free.
Thank you.
Enjoy the rest of your day, and I’ll see you soon.
Yeah. Thank you for the session.
No worries. Bye. Bye, Tina.
Fired Up & Focused Followers: Pitching Your Webinar to High-Value Brands
Fired Up & Focused Followers: Pitching Your Webinar to High-Value Brands
Transcript
Guys, well, let’s jump in and get started with, the workshop. If anyone else turns up that’s okay, they can just slot in and sort themselves out as they’re going along. But as you hopefully know today’s session is building on, the process that Jo has started stepping you through this week, in terms of building out that Waking Up to the Problem webinar. Today’s workshop is all about, when it comes time to pitch that, how to actually do that to high value intimidating brands, keeping in mind all the mindset muck that is likely to appear as you go and put that, ask out into the world.
So before we jump into the worksheet today, I just want to do a bit of a quick, temperature check with you guys.
How are you feeling after the session with Joe earlier this week, in terms of, I guess, maybe having started ideally, putting together that that webinar, and having I guess, doing that process with something that’s clearly such a a direct sales tool. How are you guys feeling about that? And there’s no right or wrong answer here. Just wanted to sort sort of get the gauge. Feel free to pop something in the chat or unmute yourself and and share a few words, whatever suits best.
I was like I’ve just tried to start recording stuff today and saying, like, my minimum is or, like, your offer will start at twenty thousand dollars, and then we’ll do ten thousand dollars recurring because that’s just how our agency works, and that’s, like, the best way blah blah blah. That was really tough to actually say the first couple of times. I’m still struggling with it.
But, I’m stopping slowly stopping the stumbling.
Amazing. Yeah. Yeah.
I haven’t even thought about pitching people, though. That that idea is more scary than the actual work of putting it together.
Okay. Can you tell me more about that? Why is that part more scary?
I guess, like, my language is always like, hey there. How are you? Hope you’re having a great day. This is, like, me and my thing. And I know you’re busy, but if this is something that you think would be cool and, like, would align, we should totally connect kinda thing. Anyway, hope you have a great day. Bye.
That’s what I was I feel like I sound like on emails to people I don’t know.
Once I know them, no problem. But it’s that first touch.
Brand voice I’m still getting their time. I need to have a meeting with you. Maybe next.
Yeah. Awesome.
Yes. And I feel like I can definitely resonate with some of that too. I am someone who is far less direct in my language usually.
So I can imagine that seeing, you know, some of the examples of what Jo shared there for the opening and the closing of that webinar could have been quite, and feel quite uncomfortable to sort of try that language on. Just a reminder while you’re here that, you know, there it’s I think it’s actually important to make sure that you do appear in the way that you’re making those pictures. So it’s not about a true copy paste. You know, you must say those exact same words.
It is finding a way to be clear and direct, and calm, ideally, and in control. But you can also, you know, bring your own language into how to make that ask and how to make that pitch at the end of the workshop. So, I always feel that it is very easy to tell when someone is trying to wear someone else’s clothes in a sense and, you know, just, you know, stumble through a script that they’ve been given. So I would definitely encourage you, Claire, to take time to sit with, those things.
And I know that some of those messages, you know, need to be direct and they need to be as they are, but are there any ways that you can bring yourself more into those so that you feel a bit more comfortable when it comes comes time to actually say them out loud, inside? But it’s probably quite intimidating rooms, intimidating situations.
And maybe something for you to take away.
Esai and Todd, how are you guys feeling or going with that workshop?
So I found the entire structure that Joe laid out so brilliant because there’s very little to guess, but all the room that I need to improvise and just bring my process and my framework into it. But one of the things that I struggle with is, I don’t get called on tech in webinars and meetings. People My name is very difficult to pronounce, and I’m clearly not from the US. My I am not a native speaker.
Even though I worked in this field and I’ve built a reputation, by virtue of the results I get from my clients, it is still a challenge for me when I’m in a room where people don’t know me. So it the biases do work against me that she like, I am not needed, and I don’t know how to pronounce the name. So I am a little worried about, how my pitches are going to land of course. Because I know that hosts want to bring in the best experts on the whether it’s to their communities or their podcast.
And sometimes it does happen if you can’t pronounce a name, you would just sort of don’t call on that person. It’s just because you are in a lot a lot of pressure your your client facing. You don’t wanna offend me sometimes.
So that’s a challenge that I have, like, I have struggled with. One on one people are great, but when you are they are they are in a position where they don’t wanna stumble or make mistakes. So, one, so I am wondering how that’s gonna work and how’s that how to work around that when I’m sending out pitches to speak on podcast, like social media marketing. Like, I would I I I’m gonna be offering a mini chat, automation, but for lead gen and sort of to mirror customer journey and act as a sales concierge.
Right? Nice.
And nobody’s talking about it this way. Everybody’s using it as a link delivery system instead of, like, an actual powerful tool that it is.
And I know that even on social media marketing, social the social media examiner or the social media marketing podcast, which is the biggest podcast and, and websites. Nobody’s talking about this yet. So there is clearly a gap, but I don’t know. Part of it is real challenges are faced, and part of it is, like, am I the person who can fill that gap fill that gap, really? There are bigger, better experts.
Mhmm. So maybe like that.
Well, possibly, and that’s probably true for all of us. But, if you’re the first person to pitch the idea to that platform and you can do it in a way that makes them say, oh, god. Yes. I need to hear this.
My audience needs to hear this. And I love the phrase you use, sales concierge, and just talking about that then. I was like, well, that’s, like, that’s a brilliant concept. And the fact that you spoke about it and lit up, like, you’re clearly passionate about it.
So Mhmm. I think your idea is super solid. It needs to get out there. And I just say, I mean, I I mean, obviously, I come from a place of privilege as a, you know, a white lady with a relatively easy to pronounce name.
But your explanation that you gave me when I asked, like, an esai, like, could you put that even, like, as your first line in your email? Because all you need to do is just remove the guesswork for someone, take the awkwardness out of it. Right? You could even be like it’s like, you know, mail, email, sigh, e sigh, like, just so they’re like, oh, cool. I know how to say that name. Right.
Because I think it’s it’s not the name itself.
Right?
It’s the worry for someone about mispronouncing it and then perhaps having you either be silent from podcast and not correct them about it out and then have all these followers who call you the wrong thing or you having to pull them up sort of mid recording.
So just be upfront with it. That would be my best suggestion. And, I mean, even, like, to be honest, for me, a lot of Americans say my name Kirsty, So I’ve had to say, oh, it’s like thirsty with a k, like, you know, which is not as cool as your explanation. But, so just saying that, you know, I think that can just relieve depression, relieve that anxiety.
So Mhmm.
That feels like a really simple practical fix, but I love those other mindset gremlins that are lurking there because we’re definitely gonna talk more about those today.
Perfect. Thank you.
Pleasure.
And, Todd, you’re up. How are you feeling, thinking? What’s happening for your workshop and in your in your noggin?
Well, you know, this might blow Tina’s mind, when we’ve been talking lately. But for me, the the webinar itself what was it called here? Let me just get my notes up real quick. The wake them up to the problem webinar.
It made me think about that, but I had a good talk with Cody this week as well. And, I’m actually thinking about pivoting on my standard off my standard standardization offer, because it does take more time. There is more work that goes into it, and it’s great, but, like, it takes longer. So I’ve just been thinking about how I’m gonna pivot and what that’s going to look like, and I think it’s just gonna be a, like, a good game changer.
I can also bring people in easier. I can get things done faster. So that’s really what made me think about. The workshop, how I was going to do it, no change, but it’s the actual deliverable and how it will work that’s actually I’m thinking differently about.
Awesome. That’s huge. And I love that you’re thinking about that now and thinking about that first because, obviously, it’s really important to know where you’re wanting people to go, what you’re wanting them to do before you create the sales tools for that. So awesome.
Great. Okay. Well, let’s dive into, I guess, the meat of today’s, workshop.
I will be referring to the worksheet too. So if you I’ll share it on my screen, but if you guys have it at your end as well, feel free to open it.
Here we go.
Sorry. I’m always quite clunky with this soon stuff.
Okay. So I think the first thing that I wanna really make clear, is that because you are all and told you will soon be, in the space of creating this workshop, You’re very much in the mental space of thinking about how you could make this a really effective sales tool for you, right, which is where you need to be to create this thing for it to be successful. Right? So you’re in that right frame of mind definitely for the creation process.
But the problem is if you bring that frame of mind into the pitching process, it can really exacerbate all those mindset gremlins. Because if you approach, you know, pitching a really big deal, a partner or a business in your space with the mindset of like, oh, I’m thinking about how this could benefit me. Like, I’ll get to get in front of all that audience. And, you know, there’s so many of my ICPs there.
You know, I can borrow so much authority from them, then it can often feel like you’re asking that really big deal business or person for help, which, I mean, is quite an uncomfortable spot to be in.
I personally am terrible at asking people for help. I feel like, if you approach something from that sort of frame of mind, it can make you feel very small and very insignificant, which, of course, are not the kind of things you wanna be thinking about yourself or feeling about yourself as you’re trying to position yourself as an expert. Right? The right person to present this idea, the right person to present this workshop, and ultimately, the person who can actually help brands affect this idea, right, to help them solve all of those, really painful points that they’re facing.
So when you’re able to actually flip that frame around and approach your pitch thinking about how the workshop could benefit them it feels much more like you’re offering a service. So offering some sort of missing puzzle piece, something that can help round out their offer and get their audience better results, or something that could help optimize their process. Whatever makes sense for the context of your workshop and then of your offer.
So this is, I guess, the mindset shift that I wanna help you make today.
And I wanna help you get some, notes down on paper for this even though, as I said, I know that you’re sort of in the process still creating that workshop. Jo has more for you next week, I believe.
So you probably will have to go back to that mindset of, like, thinking about how this benefits you, right, how it can be a really good sales tool, how well does it lead into the actual pitch at the end, etcetera, etcetera. But I would love for you here and now to just take, five minutes. I don’t think it will take too long just to have a look at the first three questions in this worksheet. So how will your webinar benefit the person, business, brand you’re pitching?
And don’t be afraid to play the ego here. So a quick reminder that, you know, most well, I guess, all all brands and businesses have competitors, and therefore, all brands and brands and businesses love to have an edge, right? Something that their competitors don’t. They also love anything that enables them to, further their status as the best x in the space or the most efficient blah blah blah, whatever that might be.
So is there a way here that your webinar could, really play to their ego in that way in terms of the outcomes that it offers them? That might be a good way to think about it.
And these next two questions here for you too, how will it benefit their audience?
And finally, how, if at all, can you tailor it slightly? I’m not talking about reinventing the wheel here, but how can you make it feel bespoke? Right? Like a unique opportunity for, that business or brand.
Because if they’re a big player, they don’t want what everyone else is having. Right? They probably don’t want exactly the same thing that is on your website for your own audience.
So I’d love you to take five minutes just to jot some thoughts down there. Feel free to turn your camera off while you do that if you would like. I’ll turn mine off just so you’re not watching me looking at at at you.
But I will, come back in five minutes, and we can talk about what you’ve got down on paper, and, yeah, help you through any stumbling blocks. Okay.
Okay. That’s been five minutes.
When you’re ready, feel free to turn your camera back on.
Right. It’s fine. I just need another minute or so.
There we go.
Okay. How did everyone go? Anyone get stuck anywhere?
Anything come up for anyone as they were going through those prompts?
I I’m a little stuck.
Mhmm. Kinda. Still got some stuff down, but in terms of tailoring it to so it feels like a unique opportunity.
Okay.
I got like, I can tailor it to their audience. I can, you know, talk their language. So, like, let’s say I was doing it on Joe’s thing. I could use conversion copywriting, for example. I could use their framework. Right? Mhmm.
But that’s kinda where I got like, where I sort of stopped. I couldn’t figure out another tailoring opportunity.
Mhmm.
Can you give me some more context about who your workshop is for and and what it’s teaching, what it’s showing?
Sure. It’s for heads of growth, or marketing, and it is teaching people. It’s it’s one of the frameworks. Right? Listen. It’s like the drill with me kind of thing.
Mhmm. Yep.
And it’s teaching them how to think about their onboarding in a way that gets people to actually activate or gets more of their audience more of their sorry. More of their free users to activate into paid customers.
Amazing. Got it. Sorry.
It’s late. No.
No. It’s all good.
Okay. Perfect. So, yes, I think, you tailoring it to use their language is an excellent idea because that is a way of you not only entering into their world more specifically, but also indicating that you know their world well enough, right, that you give enough shits, that you’ve done enough research, that, you know, you’re really well qualified to lead this workshop for that group or for that business. So I think that’s an excellent idea.
I may know other examples or ideas are coming from the top of my head.
Are there any examples that you may share within the workshop? I don’t know if you’re down to that level of content yet. I know it’s taking through the diagnostic.
Is there anything in there that you do use sort of any real world examples for, or is it Yeah.
They’re not mine, but I borrowed them.
So the one is I’ll talk people through product adoption indicators, and those are that a product adoption indicator is the moment that you know that a user is activated. Right? And for Slack, it’s two thousand messages. If you haven’t sent two thousand messages, then you’re you’re not sticky yet. You’re not considered an activated, like, fully onboarded user.
Mhmm. That’s the one example. The other example is HubSpot. HubSpot reworked their entire onboarding flow and saw a fifteen percent lift in retention, which is kinda like a wait. Retention?
Not activation?
That’s weird, moment. But retention is actually the the whole big point to onboarding because it’s the thing that makes the graph go like that rather than like that.
Yes.
Awesome. Okay.
Well, I mean, I feel like there are examples that, you know, your people that you’re pitching would absolutely know.
Right? Who doesn’t know Slack? Who doesn’t know HubSpot?
So that’s awesome.
I think in that case, obviously, being able to tell tailor the language so that it sits within their ecosystem and their frame of reference, I think that would be perfect, because I think anything else beyond that is probably gonna take you forever and ever to do, which is not the point. Right? You wanna have this workshop mainly nailed down, and it’s about making any tiny little tweaks that you can just to make it hyper specific, hyper relevant, and to demonstrate that you know about their business, you know about their brand. So I think by bringing their frame of reference in, I think that’s actually pretty peachy.
Oh, thank you.
My pleasure. Toto, Isai, anything sticky or tricky or challenging come up for you two?
So I took a lot of notes from what Claire wrote because I did not have customized the audience, and I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. So thank you, Claire. So I definitely have that written down now. But, a couple of things that I have is, number one, the way the framework that I’m teaching, even people who are teaching ManyChat, nobody else is teaching.
Nobody else is talking about it this way. Right? Like, I’m essentially talking about a two way sync between your social and email. People usually have no idea whether the people on the email list are also following them on social or not.
It’s such a like, to me, it’s, like, mind boggling when you think about it. Like, why would you not want complete information about your people? Right? Nobody’s talking about so you you and your community will be the first people to wake up your audience to talk about like, essentially, wake wake them up to this problem, and they’re seen as somebody who’s bringing cutting edge trends to that, number one.
And number two, we will help you market us market it internally as well as example. Even if it’s a closed community, there’s value in talking about it, marketing it. So people will wanna join. Even if it’s not open now, people will take notice and then, like, hey.
That’s something I’ve never heard anywhere else. So when do you open next? I would like to I would like to be a part of that community. Right?
So we would help you market it as By that, I mean, create assets, promote it myself, and create assets so you can promote it as well. So it gives you brings you more visibility.
And we’ll project manage the whole thing. Because I have a team, I can do that.
And the third thing, and this is actually very unique to me, my business essentially runs on referrals, and I have a policy of giving a ten percent referral fee to anybody who sends, who makes a connection or send, like, sends me somebody.
And I usually give ten percent for the first six months. Any project they sign for the first six months, I give like, it’s like it’s like how cookies work.
And I say it’ll it’s gonna take me at least six months to build my own good bill until then I’m trading on yours. So you deserve to be compensated. So I but I am wondering, is this something good to offer to people that I’m willing to teach? Hey. If any of them do end up working with me, I’m happy to give maybe ten percent or five percent that. But is that is that gonna be a turn off for the kind of people that are gonna be pitching? Are they gonna think I’m gonna come in and sell hard?
I actually don’t think you need that. Your the answer to the first prompt that you shared is so compelling, like, to be the first people ever to be able to see how you’re conceptualizing this and the opportunities there. Like, yeah, sign me up for that. I I don’t think you need the the referral, to be in there Okay.
As part of the pitch. Okay. And I would also question too because I think what is hopefully or potentially gonna happen for you is that this workshop will actually become a tool a sales tool for you that doesn’t rely on that referral bonus system, which, I mean, I’ve all four referral bonuses, obviously, it’s worked well for you so far, but this will be a way where you can get in front of people and sell them on your brain and your skills and what you can do for them without actually having to rely on that referral bonus. And you’ll have the workshop itself as a method by which to build know, like, and trust with those people.
So, you know, you said that, you know, you’re borrowing, you know, the person who refers them. You’re borrowing their goodwill for for the first six months. This being able to be in a room with you, see you, hear you, understand what it is you can do for them, that really accelerates that know, like, and trust process. So I actually don’t think you need to include that referral bonus.
And, you know, if you if you if you find out that, actually, that would be really helpful, then you can always add it in, you know, for the next the next workshop that you deliver for the next business. But I strongly encourage you to not not include that for the first the first time because I think the fact that this is such a unique opportunity is amazing, and I think that’s such a compelling reason for someone to say yes to your pitch.
Okay. Yeah. Thank you. I’ll try that for a little bit. Amazing.
Hi, Marina, by the way. Hello.
Hello.
Todd, how did you go with the prompts?
So we’re just talking about the three answers. Correct? The three questions with three answers. Correct? Okay. Cool.
That’s right. Yes.
Yeah. So in terms of how we will benefit them, what I’m looking at is it’s a Philippine ICP workshop. So it’s gonna help put a face to the market and increase conversion rates from the industry standard of five percent.
It’s also gonna create a buyer for them versus selling a product or service.
It’ll benefit their audience because it’s gonna provide clarity in a cluttered landscape. I don’t know if anyone’s ever heard of the surplus economic theory. You’re either first, your second, or your last. So people are searching for your type of brand, and they’ll find you. Then they’re gonna find something that’s kinda close to what you do.
And if they don’t find that, they’ll choose what’s last, and then they’re really not never gonna be happy. So the idea is provide that clarity, be their first choice, and go from there. And then the third one is how would I tailor it? It would be with, one to one interviews and switching up their mindset about how they look at their clients. Most people have come into ICP processes.
They have really no idea of their client. They just think of product, product, product, service, service, service. And then it’s like, well, who is it for? And they’re like, shit.
I, and then you ask questions like, are they male, female? What’s your age? All these things. And some people just get really kind of annoyed because you’re forcing them to get out of the business itself.
So just the one to one when I’m done.
People are just like, wow. Like, you know, it we were talking about this person last night or after a process. I’ve had someone by the name sign up for their product or service. It’s really kinda weird. So that’s what I would do is put those three answers.
Amazing. And you’re I mean, you sound like you’re so clear and compelling and sharp with those responses. So I feel like you’re definitely on a track, Todd. It’s awesome to see.
Hope so.
I hope so. You get you get thrown wrenches in these programs all the time, but but sometimes when when Joe does things, you’re like, shit. Shit. So yeah.
Yes. I think we can all relate.
Amazing. And and then I guess my bigger question for, all of you is how did it feel to sort of switch that frame and to spend some time thinking about all the goodness that exists in your workshop for the people you’re pitching?
Did that have any impact on how you feel about the workshop and how you feel about pitching on how you feel sort of in your body when you’re working through those responses, and it may not have. There’s I’m not I’m not fishing for confirmation. I’m curious.
No. This reframe was really helpful because I was thinking, like, who am I to pitch these big podcasts and websites that I’ve been following?
But now I feel like like nobody else is talking about it. So clearly, it’s it’s of benefit to them to have me on and talk about these things, and it’s like, my podcast with at the the copywriters club was the third most downloaded that year. And I had I was so nervous when I was talking to Rob during the during the recording that I was, like, shaking and all that. But the episode obviously resonated with a lot of, with a lot of people, and it’s happened to be over and over again from other episodes that I’ve recorded.
So, clearly, it’s gonna be of benefit to them. And just thinking about it like that, I think it’s gonna it it does remove a little bit of the desperate energy. I think I was already bringing into the pitch because it’s not something you’re going to do for me now. It’s something that I’m going to do for you and your audience.
So I think that is going to translate so much better into the pitch.
Amazing.
So good to hear. I’m so excited for you. I’m so excited to see your your pictures and and your workshop live in the world.
Me too. Thank you.
And I also just wanted to make a note there too before I forget.
It’s interesting, isn’t it, how, as you mentioned, for the Copywriter Club podcast, you were so nervous, but, obviously, that didn’t translate to how you were perceived in the terms of the episode. So just a good thing to keep in mind too that you can feel so nervous in the moment when you’re doing something, and you can be so sure that it’s translating. But then if you do listen back or you get feedback from it, that’s not always obvious to the people listening. And I think that can be helpful too, something to keep in mind that no one can see what’s going on inside of you.
Yeah. So yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, just a good thing to think of when you are nervous.
Yeah. It’s so weird. That’s the only podcast where I didn’t say a single or a because I was too nervous too, so I was speaking very slowly. And I was like, how is this part where I look through the transcript? I didn’t say or a, like, even once. But I’m like, okay. So it paid off to be that nervous that I was speaking slowly and deliberately that it came off as confident and not, like, you know, shaking.
That’s amazing. You found you found a hack.
Any other thoughts on this stuff before we move on, Claire or Todd? And Marina, sorry. I just should have upped the energy. We’re just going through the, the first three, questions in the worksheet for this session, just in terms of helping shift the frame from, what your workshop can do for you in terms of being a really killer sales tool into what it can actually do for the people that you’re pitching it to.
Thank you.
I still feel kind of scared and salesy.
So Mhmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. I feel like to what to this stuff, I think my my my block or wall to climb is huge. Like yeah. It’s it’s gonna take time.
I do a lot of sailing, and I remember when I started, I was like, how do I improve? How do I get better? I’m learning all this stuff. And everyone said, you can learn as much as you want on books, but it’s time on the water.
Yes.
And it kinda feels like it’s just gonna be time on the water.
One hundred percent. That’s the perfect analogy. Because it is, you know, you can only psych yourself so much up, you know, and learn so much and do all the theory. But at the end of the day, you do need to take the leap and make it a real world thing. And every time it gets better, every time it gets easier, every time it gets more comfortable.
And I think what was last month or the month before that I mentioned that, you know, we often misinterpret discomfort as a sign that we’re doing something we shouldn’t be, but really it’s more often than not a sign that we’re pushing for more or different or better.
So I just encourage you not to see that discomfort as a sign that you’re doing the wrong thing and going in the wrong direction. It’s just that you’re literally growing your comfort zone, getting your sea legs on. That might not be the best addition to your metaphor, but, there you have it. And I also think something I thought of for you too.
Was it you who was saying that you had one of your mindset thoughts was who am I to teach this? Or maybe that was Esai.
No. But that guy totally resonates.
Like, who am I in this grand scheme of everything? Like, there are so many experts out there. I’ve just gone and, like, plucked this from my imagination and, like Mhmm. Study and gone. I have this brand new idea, and I think it works. Let’s see.
Mhmm.
It catches like I’ve been following other people’s frameworks for so long.
It feels bizarre to sort of just try be the master instead of the student. I’m awful. I’m all the geese tonight. Sorry.
I love it.
Yes. And very like, it’s such an exciting place to be, I think, when you’re finally generating your own ideas and concepts, right, and models. Right? You’re no longer just a carbon copy of someone else’s path, but you’ve been able to gather enough experience.
And who you are in a life that you’ve lived has enabled you to see things in a different light, and you’re now putting that out there, you know, as something that is uniquely yours. Obviously, very terrifying because if it’s all yours, then it’s all yours to fail. Right? You know?
I think we all feel that on some level.
So just normalizing that for you. And also wanted to say that I think often, particularly when we are pitching ourselves to, people or brands who are really big deal in our space, we often confuse the size of their success with the size of their knowledge about what we have to share. So we’re if you can imagine circles, like, we’re like, okay. They’re this big deal.
Like, this is their knowledge. They’re huge. And I’m like, I’m in here. I’m this little tiny circle in here.
Like, what do I have to offer? But the reality is that we both have big circles of knowledge, and the overlap is quite small. So so much of your circle is absolutely brand new to them even though they’re a huge established business.
I don’t know if that helps, and I don’t know if I’ve explained that very well.
Would be a good time. It’s a Venn diagram.
It’s a circle, and then it’s a circle inside the circle, and then another slightly overlapping circle.
Yes. The big circle is their success.
You know, it’s so interesting you said that, Christy. I Christy, I was actually doing my structural research on my ICP, and one of them is head of content. And doctoral, they give you it gives you keywords. Right?
What are the keywords they’re searching? Like, the top ten keywords are, like, basic SEO tips, like how to do SEO, like a simple beginner’s guide to SEO. It’s like the top ten search, and these are heads of head of content in, like, SaaS companies. And I was like, what?
Thank you.
Isn’t that amazing?
So hopeful.
Yes. That’s so reassuring, isn’t it? It’s like, cool. That’s where their head’s at. It’s like, I’m way above that for that yet.
That’s amazing.
Had anything come up for you, and no pressure.
If if not, feel free to just shake your head, and I won’t force you to to talk to me.
No. No one’s ever forced here. So, yeah. Yeah. I think everything that comes down to what we’re doing in pitch, mindset, everything for me is just the the acceleration nature.
I think these are things that you might, like, be a little dilettante shit and kinda dabble and try and figure it out, but this forces you. There’s like you know, Ryan Schwartz always talked about that, authentic scarcity. It’s not FOMO, but it’s, like, just forcing you to, like there’s an urgent timer behind you and, like, you just feel it and you’re kinda like, stop. Leave me alone.
And it’s just kinda there and it’s but it’s it’s effective. Right? You you’re you’re coming into programs and, and meetings where other people are doing it and you’re seeing it and, like, Claire’s talking about it and what she’s going through, but she’s doing it. She’s showing up.
She’s in the you know, you’re in the boat, Claire. You know what I mean? And it’s it’s tough, but that’s what it is for me. It’s the acceleration.
I I’ve been working ICPs for a while. We did as a a studio, we did ICPs, but it’s always on the website and, you know, it’s more inbound. And what we’re doing now is more outbound. And it’s just accelerating that that approach.
And you’re literally going, like, we sign up for webinars. Now we’re running webinars in a workshop. So it’s just, again, that mindset. Right?
And that’s to me, it’s just the acceleration nature. I love it myself. It makes for long days, but I love it. And when you when we all when you get it together, you can see it’s laid out.
So that’s what it is for me. It’s just taking what I’ve already had and just refining it more. Right? So and this group is kinda like iron sharpening iron for me.
It helps you with everything that we do.
So Amazing.
I love the way you conceptualize things, Todd. It’s very cool to hear because you’re right. There is a big acceleration happening, and I think particularly in CSP. Right? There’s a new theme every month that Joe’s dropping knowledge nuggets everywhere.
And Every month.
Every day, I go I go into coffee school like CSP. I’m like, oh, man.
Do you know what this is?
What you wanna do? And you’re like, oh, just getting it done and trying to document it and do it. And, like, everyone here is it’s funny. Again, everyone here is questioning it, but we’re, you know, it’s like, because we’re learning from a different way and it’s, like, just being patient with it as we accelerate.
Right? But again, yeah. I I mean, I it’s when you say conceptualize, it’s actually for me, the concept that was always there. What I’m learning is that, again, we’re just framing a concept that we already had.
And just making because if it makes sense to us, it will definitely make sense to anybody else because what we do is persuade people.
So That’s right.
So I did also have, just going back to the worksheet, I did also have a section in there to help you actually craft the pitch, but I think just given, that Joe’s workshop is two part. Hang on. Let me put this in present mode.
Sorry. I love that in music. Not sure why that was there.
So I think I will actually leave this, second half of the worksheet for you guys to dive into as you need because I suspect if the workshops themselves aren’t yet finalized, Jo has obviously more to step you through next week. We might be jumping the gun a little bit here.
But please come back and use this if you do need some help and some structure to guide you on getting that first pitch on paper, because often that first one can be the hardest. Right?
And please ping me in Slack as you go if you’re like, hey, Kirsty. I’m getting stuck on this. I need some help with this. Or can you review this for me? I would absolutely love to do that. And the one other thing I note, and I see your hand tied, I’ll, get to you in a sec before I forget.
I suspect after seeing Jo’s worksheet, it may be that, that she will be encouraging you to pitch, leading with pains rather than benefits.
But anyway, that will be TBC. So just highlighting that there may be a difference there.
This is the structure that I usually use for my pictures. My pictures are usually very successful, so this does work. It might just be a different, I guess, focus than what Joe may be may be teaching you. Alright.
Cool. If it’s okay, we have a couple of minutes just sitting where where we are. For anyone who has ever seen me in these these groups, I never really asked for critique. So it’s not something I normally share.
So if possible, if if it’s okay, when you’re saying crafting your pitch, I wrote one. Can I just check it out here and I’ll put it in Slack and then just say it out loud? And I wouldn’t mind some critique on it if possible. Anybody I want a game for that.
Cool. So here’s the in chat, there’s the actual relevance because you you said, like, why am I pitching?
Mhmm. Great. Yep.
And then the actual promise is this.
And the again, if for anyone just reading, the the pitch itself was the targeting is on point. Because we know if you’ve got a great brand, as soon as you start researching them, you’re gonna get retargeting no matter where you’re and what’s going on. And then, yeah, the the promise is what I’m I’m curious about as well.
And the promise is nineteen words, so it’s very on brand voice, Claire. We’ll talk about that after.
So the promise part is, the the way it’s phrased is confusing me a little bit, but maybe I’m just missing a piece of context.
So the promise is that you start with shared language, or is that Yes.
So it’s the it start with shared language. So that’s all all one sentence, but it just broken up with the call. So it start with shared language. K. And shared language is understanding your ICPs.
And when you understand the ICPs that it was one to one interviews, brand voice naturally comes out of that through osmosis. And then, really, what happens, you’re able to stay on brand throughout all channels by knowing your vocabulary, by not only knowing the client, but knowing your vocabulary, your cadence, and your tone.
Awesome. So I’m just curious. Do you think the people you are pitching would know what start with shared language means, that phrase?
No. That’s why the ICP will be bringing them into that. The actual story of the workshop would be ICP. And then as I promote, it will be based on you know, we’ll break down what a shared language is and all of those things, like, through promotion, through authority building.
Okay. Cool. Because I feel like the way you explained it the second time. I was like, ah, cool.
I understand why that’s valuable. So I think for the pitch itself, you know, you need to sort of meet them where they’re at and not use any of your terms too early on in the pitch. Yeah. Because it’s it’s less meaningful.
Right? If they’re like, I don’t know what this means. But if you can explain to them in terms that it’s a mate. Right?
Like, they’re your ICP, so you’re gonna be pulling the words from their head in terms of what they’re thinking about and what they would love to achieve.
I would suggest leading with that and using that language in the promise rather than the language of what you’re going to step them through during the workshop because they’re not there yet.
Hundred percent.
That make sense?
Hundred percent.
Any other thoughts?
If I might add something, I would reconsider putting the part where you say put a face to your ideal flying profile because that sort of gives away a little bit of your process. And I’ve found that sometimes people have resistance towards certain things, so they feel like either they assume they already know what you’re going to talk what you’re going to talk about, but they will decide whether it’s for them or not even before understanding what it is. So I would rather I would actually suggest removing your process from it entirely and only speak about the benefits like you like you did when you act when you’re actually talking about it, you didn’t talk about putting a face. You only talked about the benefits that they will get, which Claire so beautifully summarized. So I think that’s a lot more powerful.
Yep. Hundred percent. Thank you.
Awesome. Any other thoughts from anyone or any other questions from you, Todd? No? Amazing. Thanks for sharing that. Claire?
Yeah. I just wanna say, Todd, I find you so eloquent. Like, when you’re I honestly feel like you should just talk and, like, get it down on paper and then use that. Just talk and tell chat g p t to, like, neaten it up a bit because you’re so eloquent in speech, honestly.
Like, every time you talk, I’m like, oh my gosh. You sound so intelligent. Everything’s, like, all packaged together in these nice ideas. Why can’t I do that?
Can do that on writing.
Like, when I talk, I start going in tangents.
So yeah.
That’s actually what I just summarized was what you, like, said verbatim.
So that yeah.
Okay. My question.
I would love to see an example of one of your, successful or even unsuccessful pitches and what that actually looks like because I have no idea what I would even start typing.
Like Yeah.
Of course.
I’m so happy to share one of those with you. It will be a dive through my Google Drive, though. So is it okay if I pop plunk it in Slack later today? Is that alright?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. Whatever works. That would just be so helpful to, like, yeah, move move past the, like, I don’t know what to write kind of plot.
Yeah. Of course. No problems whatsoever.
And I know. Seeing real life thing is actually quite helpful. I might even have two.
I’ve kept any of these. I may even have some too. I have, like, the back and forth then from the person I was pitching, which might also be helpful to see because often it’s not just that you send the pitch and then it’s like booked in done. There can often be some back and forth in terms of them, you know, working things out and locking it in. So I can see if I have any of those two email chains that I’ve shared and sorry. Kept. And I can share those and just block out names and email addresses so that no one’s vulnerable.
Thank you so much. That’d be very helpful.
My pleasure. Esai.
So my first part of my question was gonna be that, you know, what does that conversation look like? Because, obviously, the first pitch is not gonna be the one that immediately converts. So how do we I have I have a process that I follow for myself and for my clients that sort of works. We do a multichannel approach, like email, social, sort of keep one channel.
We follow-up on follow-up via email, but just sort of chat and just have a friendly conversation via social. So it’s never awkward, even though it’s a door or whatever. The relationship is still alive. But I would love to know your process of what that conversation looks like, One, so thank you for sharing that.
But two, I was also wondering and I know you have a part with call to action here, but what that looks like because it might not be an immediate yes or an immediate let’s get on a call. Right? So would it be better to have a a different call to action at the first pitch, or what is it that you would recommend?
Yeah. So I think this is where context is really important. Right?
So even the platform of which you’re pitching, so you’re thinking about some podcast, right, for example, or if you’re thinking about, speaking inside of someone else’s paid program or mastermind, that’s gonna be different to pitching, say, ActiveCampaign to be, you know, to present a workshop customers. So Mhmm. I think thinking about the context of that, like, what is the call to action that actually makes sense? Like, how are you gonna be most likely to book this workshop in?
So and I think also the context too of, like, what is your relationship with the person you’re pitching? Because in some cases you may have like a connection with them. Maybe you met them at an event, you know, maybe you both have worked with the same person. There could be something there that you could leverage as well.
Or is it just a pure cold pitch, right, where you you just know that this is gonna be a really high value brand for you to actually get in tunnel.
So, thinking through all of those things, I think, can help you determine the call to action.
So for example, with if when I’m pitching podcasts, it’s never jump on a call because I think I’ve actually never had to jump on a call to land a podcast spot. Yeah. Yeah. I find that with podcasts, it’s all done via email.
Yeah. That’s been my experience. So Yeah. My call to action has been usually something along the lines of, you know, how do you think this would land for your audience?
Hit reply and let me know. So something as simple as that that just stimulates a conversation. And then if I don’t hear back from them within, say, three working days, I’ll then just follow-up and say, hey. Just wanted to to see how you you know, how this is sitting for you.
So, you know, a much softer CTA in that case because of the context of the fact that, you know, the podcast track isn’t gonna wanna jump on a call with me before they get me on the podcast. Like, the call was gonna be the interview.
Yeah. Yeah.
But that’s helpful. I just ran with you.
I can No. No. No. That’s helpful because I did. I I am thinking about pitching whole pitching podcast that don’t know me and I don’t have a preexisting relationship with.
So the softer CD, I think, is what I was thinking. Like, how does this idea did did you have the follow-up was thinking, did you have any suggestion? Would you suggest tweaks or what else came up along with Yes. Thing of, like, referencing some of the more recent podcasts.
I think that could be a good way to follow-up as well.
Yes. Definitely. Anything that’s current or relevant, I think, is always a good a good way to follow-up.
And I do think I think, actually, I shared one of my podcast pictures, in Slack a few months ago.
So I can see if it I’ll I’ll go back and tag you in it, Esai, because Yeah.
And maybe Claire as well if you’d like to see that one. I don’t know if podcasts are relevant for yep.
Cool. I’ll I’ll tag you both, and and if anyone else wants me to tag them, let me know.
But that was for Rick Mulready’s, Art of Online Business podcast, which at the time was a really, huge win for me.
So yeah. Was that a yes tag me please too from Todd or okay. Awesome.
Okay.
Easy.
Any final thoughts, questions, conundrums, cries for help?
No.
Well, as always, it’s been an absolute pleasure to spend this hour with you all.
Please ping me in Slack. I’ll go find that post with the podcast pitch now, and I’ll go through my Google Drive and find some more that I can share, Claire, and hopefully some email exchanges too, just so you can see sort of what the back and forth can look like and and how the the pitch can, I guess, not evolve, but how it can sort of have some flex in it to to really meet what the ideal you know, the person you’re pitching might want?
Any questions as you go along and do any of this stuff, if you need any pep talks or anything, please reach out in Slack. Just tag me, and I’ll see it.
I would love to really, like, help you as you go, so please don’t be shy.
Alright. I’ll see you in Slack.
Thank you so much. I’m definitely gonna ask for a pet dog. Great. Yes. Do. Please do.
Alright. Thanks, everyone.
Thank you.
Transcript
Guys, well, let’s jump in and get started with, the workshop. If anyone else turns up that’s okay, they can just slot in and sort themselves out as they’re going along. But as you hopefully know today’s session is building on, the process that Jo has started stepping you through this week, in terms of building out that Waking Up to the Problem webinar. Today’s workshop is all about, when it comes time to pitch that, how to actually do that to high value intimidating brands, keeping in mind all the mindset muck that is likely to appear as you go and put that, ask out into the world.
So before we jump into the worksheet today, I just want to do a bit of a quick, temperature check with you guys.
How are you feeling after the session with Joe earlier this week, in terms of, I guess, maybe having started ideally, putting together that that webinar, and having I guess, doing that process with something that’s clearly such a a direct sales tool. How are you guys feeling about that? And there’s no right or wrong answer here. Just wanted to sort sort of get the gauge. Feel free to pop something in the chat or unmute yourself and and share a few words, whatever suits best.
I was like I’ve just tried to start recording stuff today and saying, like, my minimum is or, like, your offer will start at twenty thousand dollars, and then we’ll do ten thousand dollars recurring because that’s just how our agency works, and that’s, like, the best way blah blah blah. That was really tough to actually say the first couple of times. I’m still struggling with it.
But, I’m stopping slowly stopping the stumbling.
Amazing. Yeah. Yeah.
I haven’t even thought about pitching people, though. That that idea is more scary than the actual work of putting it together.
Okay. Can you tell me more about that? Why is that part more scary?
I guess, like, my language is always like, hey there. How are you? Hope you’re having a great day. This is, like, me and my thing. And I know you’re busy, but if this is something that you think would be cool and, like, would align, we should totally connect kinda thing. Anyway, hope you have a great day. Bye.
That’s what I was I feel like I sound like on emails to people I don’t know.
Once I know them, no problem. But it’s that first touch.
Brand voice I’m still getting their time. I need to have a meeting with you. Maybe next.
Yeah. Awesome.
Yes. And I feel like I can definitely resonate with some of that too. I am someone who is far less direct in my language usually.
So I can imagine that seeing, you know, some of the examples of what Jo shared there for the opening and the closing of that webinar could have been quite, and feel quite uncomfortable to sort of try that language on. Just a reminder while you’re here that, you know, there it’s I think it’s actually important to make sure that you do appear in the way that you’re making those pictures. So it’s not about a true copy paste. You know, you must say those exact same words.
It is finding a way to be clear and direct, and calm, ideally, and in control. But you can also, you know, bring your own language into how to make that ask and how to make that pitch at the end of the workshop. So, I always feel that it is very easy to tell when someone is trying to wear someone else’s clothes in a sense and, you know, just, you know, stumble through a script that they’ve been given. So I would definitely encourage you, Claire, to take time to sit with, those things.
And I know that some of those messages, you know, need to be direct and they need to be as they are, but are there any ways that you can bring yourself more into those so that you feel a bit more comfortable when it comes comes time to actually say them out loud, inside? But it’s probably quite intimidating rooms, intimidating situations.
And maybe something for you to take away.
Esai and Todd, how are you guys feeling or going with that workshop?
So I found the entire structure that Joe laid out so brilliant because there’s very little to guess, but all the room that I need to improvise and just bring my process and my framework into it. But one of the things that I struggle with is, I don’t get called on tech in webinars and meetings. People My name is very difficult to pronounce, and I’m clearly not from the US. My I am not a native speaker.
Even though I worked in this field and I’ve built a reputation, by virtue of the results I get from my clients, it is still a challenge for me when I’m in a room where people don’t know me. So it the biases do work against me that she like, I am not needed, and I don’t know how to pronounce the name. So I am a little worried about, how my pitches are going to land of course. Because I know that hosts want to bring in the best experts on the whether it’s to their communities or their podcast.
And sometimes it does happen if you can’t pronounce a name, you would just sort of don’t call on that person. It’s just because you are in a lot a lot of pressure your your client facing. You don’t wanna offend me sometimes.
So that’s a challenge that I have, like, I have struggled with. One on one people are great, but when you are they are they are in a position where they don’t wanna stumble or make mistakes. So, one, so I am wondering how that’s gonna work and how’s that how to work around that when I’m sending out pitches to speak on podcast, like social media marketing. Like, I would I I I’m gonna be offering a mini chat, automation, but for lead gen and sort of to mirror customer journey and act as a sales concierge.
Right? Nice.
And nobody’s talking about it this way. Everybody’s using it as a link delivery system instead of, like, an actual powerful tool that it is.
And I know that even on social media marketing, social the social media examiner or the social media marketing podcast, which is the biggest podcast and, and websites. Nobody’s talking about this yet. So there is clearly a gap, but I don’t know. Part of it is real challenges are faced, and part of it is, like, am I the person who can fill that gap fill that gap, really? There are bigger, better experts.
Mhmm. So maybe like that.
Well, possibly, and that’s probably true for all of us. But, if you’re the first person to pitch the idea to that platform and you can do it in a way that makes them say, oh, god. Yes. I need to hear this.
My audience needs to hear this. And I love the phrase you use, sales concierge, and just talking about that then. I was like, well, that’s, like, that’s a brilliant concept. And the fact that you spoke about it and lit up, like, you’re clearly passionate about it.
So Mhmm. I think your idea is super solid. It needs to get out there. And I just say, I mean, I I mean, obviously, I come from a place of privilege as a, you know, a white lady with a relatively easy to pronounce name.
But your explanation that you gave me when I asked, like, an esai, like, could you put that even, like, as your first line in your email? Because all you need to do is just remove the guesswork for someone, take the awkwardness out of it. Right? You could even be like it’s like, you know, mail, email, sigh, e sigh, like, just so they’re like, oh, cool. I know how to say that name. Right.
Because I think it’s it’s not the name itself.
Right?
It’s the worry for someone about mispronouncing it and then perhaps having you either be silent from podcast and not correct them about it out and then have all these followers who call you the wrong thing or you having to pull them up sort of mid recording.
So just be upfront with it. That would be my best suggestion. And, I mean, even, like, to be honest, for me, a lot of Americans say my name Kirsty, So I’ve had to say, oh, it’s like thirsty with a k, like, you know, which is not as cool as your explanation. But, so just saying that, you know, I think that can just relieve depression, relieve that anxiety.
So Mhmm.
That feels like a really simple practical fix, but I love those other mindset gremlins that are lurking there because we’re definitely gonna talk more about those today.
Perfect. Thank you.
Pleasure.
And, Todd, you’re up. How are you feeling, thinking? What’s happening for your workshop and in your in your noggin?
Well, you know, this might blow Tina’s mind, when we’ve been talking lately. But for me, the the webinar itself what was it called here? Let me just get my notes up real quick. The wake them up to the problem webinar.
It made me think about that, but I had a good talk with Cody this week as well. And, I’m actually thinking about pivoting on my standard off my standard standardization offer, because it does take more time. There is more work that goes into it, and it’s great, but, like, it takes longer. So I’ve just been thinking about how I’m gonna pivot and what that’s going to look like, and I think it’s just gonna be a, like, a good game changer.
I can also bring people in easier. I can get things done faster. So that’s really what made me think about. The workshop, how I was going to do it, no change, but it’s the actual deliverable and how it will work that’s actually I’m thinking differently about.
Awesome. That’s huge. And I love that you’re thinking about that now and thinking about that first because, obviously, it’s really important to know where you’re wanting people to go, what you’re wanting them to do before you create the sales tools for that. So awesome.
Great. Okay. Well, let’s dive into, I guess, the meat of today’s, workshop.
I will be referring to the worksheet too. So if you I’ll share it on my screen, but if you guys have it at your end as well, feel free to open it.
Here we go.
Sorry. I’m always quite clunky with this soon stuff.
Okay. So I think the first thing that I wanna really make clear, is that because you are all and told you will soon be, in the space of creating this workshop, You’re very much in the mental space of thinking about how you could make this a really effective sales tool for you, right, which is where you need to be to create this thing for it to be successful. Right? So you’re in that right frame of mind definitely for the creation process.
But the problem is if you bring that frame of mind into the pitching process, it can really exacerbate all those mindset gremlins. Because if you approach, you know, pitching a really big deal, a partner or a business in your space with the mindset of like, oh, I’m thinking about how this could benefit me. Like, I’ll get to get in front of all that audience. And, you know, there’s so many of my ICPs there.
You know, I can borrow so much authority from them, then it can often feel like you’re asking that really big deal business or person for help, which, I mean, is quite an uncomfortable spot to be in.
I personally am terrible at asking people for help. I feel like, if you approach something from that sort of frame of mind, it can make you feel very small and very insignificant, which, of course, are not the kind of things you wanna be thinking about yourself or feeling about yourself as you’re trying to position yourself as an expert. Right? The right person to present this idea, the right person to present this workshop, and ultimately, the person who can actually help brands affect this idea, right, to help them solve all of those, really painful points that they’re facing.
So when you’re able to actually flip that frame around and approach your pitch thinking about how the workshop could benefit them it feels much more like you’re offering a service. So offering some sort of missing puzzle piece, something that can help round out their offer and get their audience better results, or something that could help optimize their process. Whatever makes sense for the context of your workshop and then of your offer.
So this is, I guess, the mindset shift that I wanna help you make today.
And I wanna help you get some, notes down on paper for this even though, as I said, I know that you’re sort of in the process still creating that workshop. Jo has more for you next week, I believe.
So you probably will have to go back to that mindset of, like, thinking about how this benefits you, right, how it can be a really good sales tool, how well does it lead into the actual pitch at the end, etcetera, etcetera. But I would love for you here and now to just take, five minutes. I don’t think it will take too long just to have a look at the first three questions in this worksheet. So how will your webinar benefit the person, business, brand you’re pitching?
And don’t be afraid to play the ego here. So a quick reminder that, you know, most well, I guess, all all brands and businesses have competitors, and therefore, all brands and brands and businesses love to have an edge, right? Something that their competitors don’t. They also love anything that enables them to, further their status as the best x in the space or the most efficient blah blah blah, whatever that might be.
So is there a way here that your webinar could, really play to their ego in that way in terms of the outcomes that it offers them? That might be a good way to think about it.
And these next two questions here for you too, how will it benefit their audience?
And finally, how, if at all, can you tailor it slightly? I’m not talking about reinventing the wheel here, but how can you make it feel bespoke? Right? Like a unique opportunity for, that business or brand.
Because if they’re a big player, they don’t want what everyone else is having. Right? They probably don’t want exactly the same thing that is on your website for your own audience.
So I’d love you to take five minutes just to jot some thoughts down there. Feel free to turn your camera off while you do that if you would like. I’ll turn mine off just so you’re not watching me looking at at at you.
But I will, come back in five minutes, and we can talk about what you’ve got down on paper, and, yeah, help you through any stumbling blocks. Okay.
Okay. That’s been five minutes.
When you’re ready, feel free to turn your camera back on.
Right. It’s fine. I just need another minute or so.
There we go.
Okay. How did everyone go? Anyone get stuck anywhere?
Anything come up for anyone as they were going through those prompts?
I I’m a little stuck.
Mhmm. Kinda. Still got some stuff down, but in terms of tailoring it to so it feels like a unique opportunity.
Okay.
I got like, I can tailor it to their audience. I can, you know, talk their language. So, like, let’s say I was doing it on Joe’s thing. I could use conversion copywriting, for example. I could use their framework. Right? Mhmm.
But that’s kinda where I got like, where I sort of stopped. I couldn’t figure out another tailoring opportunity.
Mhmm.
Can you give me some more context about who your workshop is for and and what it’s teaching, what it’s showing?
Sure. It’s for heads of growth, or marketing, and it is teaching people. It’s it’s one of the frameworks. Right? Listen. It’s like the drill with me kind of thing.
Mhmm. Yep.
And it’s teaching them how to think about their onboarding in a way that gets people to actually activate or gets more of their audience more of their sorry. More of their free users to activate into paid customers.
Amazing. Got it. Sorry.
It’s late. No.
No. It’s all good.
Okay. Perfect. So, yes, I think, you tailoring it to use their language is an excellent idea because that is a way of you not only entering into their world more specifically, but also indicating that you know their world well enough, right, that you give enough shits, that you’ve done enough research, that, you know, you’re really well qualified to lead this workshop for that group or for that business. So I think that’s an excellent idea.
I may know other examples or ideas are coming from the top of my head.
Are there any examples that you may share within the workshop? I don’t know if you’re down to that level of content yet. I know it’s taking through the diagnostic.
Is there anything in there that you do use sort of any real world examples for, or is it Yeah.
They’re not mine, but I borrowed them.
So the one is I’ll talk people through product adoption indicators, and those are that a product adoption indicator is the moment that you know that a user is activated. Right? And for Slack, it’s two thousand messages. If you haven’t sent two thousand messages, then you’re you’re not sticky yet. You’re not considered an activated, like, fully onboarded user.
Mhmm. That’s the one example. The other example is HubSpot. HubSpot reworked their entire onboarding flow and saw a fifteen percent lift in retention, which is kinda like a wait. Retention?
Not activation?
That’s weird, moment. But retention is actually the the whole big point to onboarding because it’s the thing that makes the graph go like that rather than like that.
Yes.
Awesome. Okay.
Well, I mean, I feel like there are examples that, you know, your people that you’re pitching would absolutely know.
Right? Who doesn’t know Slack? Who doesn’t know HubSpot?
So that’s awesome.
I think in that case, obviously, being able to tell tailor the language so that it sits within their ecosystem and their frame of reference, I think that would be perfect, because I think anything else beyond that is probably gonna take you forever and ever to do, which is not the point. Right? You wanna have this workshop mainly nailed down, and it’s about making any tiny little tweaks that you can just to make it hyper specific, hyper relevant, and to demonstrate that you know about their business, you know about their brand. So I think by bringing their frame of reference in, I think that’s actually pretty peachy.
Oh, thank you.
My pleasure. Toto, Isai, anything sticky or tricky or challenging come up for you two?
So I took a lot of notes from what Claire wrote because I did not have customized the audience, and I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. So thank you, Claire. So I definitely have that written down now. But, a couple of things that I have is, number one, the way the framework that I’m teaching, even people who are teaching ManyChat, nobody else is teaching.
Nobody else is talking about it this way. Right? Like, I’m essentially talking about a two way sync between your social and email. People usually have no idea whether the people on the email list are also following them on social or not.
It’s such a like, to me, it’s, like, mind boggling when you think about it. Like, why would you not want complete information about your people? Right? Nobody’s talking about so you you and your community will be the first people to wake up your audience to talk about like, essentially, wake wake them up to this problem, and they’re seen as somebody who’s bringing cutting edge trends to that, number one.
And number two, we will help you market us market it internally as well as example. Even if it’s a closed community, there’s value in talking about it, marketing it. So people will wanna join. Even if it’s not open now, people will take notice and then, like, hey.
That’s something I’ve never heard anywhere else. So when do you open next? I would like to I would like to be a part of that community. Right?
So we would help you market it as By that, I mean, create assets, promote it myself, and create assets so you can promote it as well. So it gives you brings you more visibility.
And we’ll project manage the whole thing. Because I have a team, I can do that.
And the third thing, and this is actually very unique to me, my business essentially runs on referrals, and I have a policy of giving a ten percent referral fee to anybody who sends, who makes a connection or send, like, sends me somebody.
And I usually give ten percent for the first six months. Any project they sign for the first six months, I give like, it’s like it’s like how cookies work.
And I say it’ll it’s gonna take me at least six months to build my own good bill until then I’m trading on yours. So you deserve to be compensated. So I but I am wondering, is this something good to offer to people that I’m willing to teach? Hey. If any of them do end up working with me, I’m happy to give maybe ten percent or five percent that. But is that is that gonna be a turn off for the kind of people that are gonna be pitching? Are they gonna think I’m gonna come in and sell hard?
I actually don’t think you need that. Your the answer to the first prompt that you shared is so compelling, like, to be the first people ever to be able to see how you’re conceptualizing this and the opportunities there. Like, yeah, sign me up for that. I I don’t think you need the the referral, to be in there Okay.
As part of the pitch. Okay. And I would also question too because I think what is hopefully or potentially gonna happen for you is that this workshop will actually become a tool a sales tool for you that doesn’t rely on that referral bonus system, which, I mean, I’ve all four referral bonuses, obviously, it’s worked well for you so far, but this will be a way where you can get in front of people and sell them on your brain and your skills and what you can do for them without actually having to rely on that referral bonus. And you’ll have the workshop itself as a method by which to build know, like, and trust with those people.
So, you know, you said that, you know, you’re borrowing, you know, the person who refers them. You’re borrowing their goodwill for for the first six months. This being able to be in a room with you, see you, hear you, understand what it is you can do for them, that really accelerates that know, like, and trust process. So I actually don’t think you need to include that referral bonus.
And, you know, if you if you if you find out that, actually, that would be really helpful, then you can always add it in, you know, for the next the next workshop that you deliver for the next business. But I strongly encourage you to not not include that for the first the first time because I think the fact that this is such a unique opportunity is amazing, and I think that’s such a compelling reason for someone to say yes to your pitch.
Okay. Yeah. Thank you. I’ll try that for a little bit. Amazing.
Hi, Marina, by the way. Hello.
Hello.
Todd, how did you go with the prompts?
So we’re just talking about the three answers. Correct? The three questions with three answers. Correct? Okay. Cool.
That’s right. Yes.
Yeah. So in terms of how we will benefit them, what I’m looking at is it’s a Philippine ICP workshop. So it’s gonna help put a face to the market and increase conversion rates from the industry standard of five percent.
It’s also gonna create a buyer for them versus selling a product or service.
It’ll benefit their audience because it’s gonna provide clarity in a cluttered landscape. I don’t know if anyone’s ever heard of the surplus economic theory. You’re either first, your second, or your last. So people are searching for your type of brand, and they’ll find you. Then they’re gonna find something that’s kinda close to what you do.
And if they don’t find that, they’ll choose what’s last, and then they’re really not never gonna be happy. So the idea is provide that clarity, be their first choice, and go from there. And then the third one is how would I tailor it? It would be with, one to one interviews and switching up their mindset about how they look at their clients. Most people have come into ICP processes.
They have really no idea of their client. They just think of product, product, product, service, service, service. And then it’s like, well, who is it for? And they’re like, shit.
I, and then you ask questions like, are they male, female? What’s your age? All these things. And some people just get really kind of annoyed because you’re forcing them to get out of the business itself.
So just the one to one when I’m done.
People are just like, wow. Like, you know, it we were talking about this person last night or after a process. I’ve had someone by the name sign up for their product or service. It’s really kinda weird. So that’s what I would do is put those three answers.
Amazing. And you’re I mean, you sound like you’re so clear and compelling and sharp with those responses. So I feel like you’re definitely on a track, Todd. It’s awesome to see.
Hope so.
I hope so. You get you get thrown wrenches in these programs all the time, but but sometimes when when Joe does things, you’re like, shit. Shit. So yeah.
Yes. I think we can all relate.
Amazing. And and then I guess my bigger question for, all of you is how did it feel to sort of switch that frame and to spend some time thinking about all the goodness that exists in your workshop for the people you’re pitching?
Did that have any impact on how you feel about the workshop and how you feel about pitching on how you feel sort of in your body when you’re working through those responses, and it may not have. There’s I’m not I’m not fishing for confirmation. I’m curious.
No. This reframe was really helpful because I was thinking, like, who am I to pitch these big podcasts and websites that I’ve been following?
But now I feel like like nobody else is talking about it. So clearly, it’s it’s of benefit to them to have me on and talk about these things, and it’s like, my podcast with at the the copywriters club was the third most downloaded that year. And I had I was so nervous when I was talking to Rob during the during the recording that I was, like, shaking and all that. But the episode obviously resonated with a lot of, with a lot of people, and it’s happened to be over and over again from other episodes that I’ve recorded.
So, clearly, it’s gonna be of benefit to them. And just thinking about it like that, I think it’s gonna it it does remove a little bit of the desperate energy. I think I was already bringing into the pitch because it’s not something you’re going to do for me now. It’s something that I’m going to do for you and your audience.
So I think that is going to translate so much better into the pitch.
Amazing.
So good to hear. I’m so excited for you. I’m so excited to see your your pictures and and your workshop live in the world.
Me too. Thank you.
And I also just wanted to make a note there too before I forget.
It’s interesting, isn’t it, how, as you mentioned, for the Copywriter Club podcast, you were so nervous, but, obviously, that didn’t translate to how you were perceived in the terms of the episode. So just a good thing to keep in mind too that you can feel so nervous in the moment when you’re doing something, and you can be so sure that it’s translating. But then if you do listen back or you get feedback from it, that’s not always obvious to the people listening. And I think that can be helpful too, something to keep in mind that no one can see what’s going on inside of you.
Yeah. So yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, just a good thing to think of when you are nervous.
Yeah. It’s so weird. That’s the only podcast where I didn’t say a single or a because I was too nervous too, so I was speaking very slowly. And I was like, how is this part where I look through the transcript? I didn’t say or a, like, even once. But I’m like, okay. So it paid off to be that nervous that I was speaking slowly and deliberately that it came off as confident and not, like, you know, shaking.
That’s amazing. You found you found a hack.
Any other thoughts on this stuff before we move on, Claire or Todd? And Marina, sorry. I just should have upped the energy. We’re just going through the, the first three, questions in the worksheet for this session, just in terms of helping shift the frame from, what your workshop can do for you in terms of being a really killer sales tool into what it can actually do for the people that you’re pitching it to.
Thank you.
I still feel kind of scared and salesy.
So Mhmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. I feel like to what to this stuff, I think my my my block or wall to climb is huge. Like yeah. It’s it’s gonna take time.
I do a lot of sailing, and I remember when I started, I was like, how do I improve? How do I get better? I’m learning all this stuff. And everyone said, you can learn as much as you want on books, but it’s time on the water.
Yes.
And it kinda feels like it’s just gonna be time on the water.
One hundred percent. That’s the perfect analogy. Because it is, you know, you can only psych yourself so much up, you know, and learn so much and do all the theory. But at the end of the day, you do need to take the leap and make it a real world thing. And every time it gets better, every time it gets easier, every time it gets more comfortable.
And I think what was last month or the month before that I mentioned that, you know, we often misinterpret discomfort as a sign that we’re doing something we shouldn’t be, but really it’s more often than not a sign that we’re pushing for more or different or better.
So I just encourage you not to see that discomfort as a sign that you’re doing the wrong thing and going in the wrong direction. It’s just that you’re literally growing your comfort zone, getting your sea legs on. That might not be the best addition to your metaphor, but, there you have it. And I also think something I thought of for you too.
Was it you who was saying that you had one of your mindset thoughts was who am I to teach this? Or maybe that was Esai.
No. But that guy totally resonates.
Like, who am I in this grand scheme of everything? Like, there are so many experts out there. I’ve just gone and, like, plucked this from my imagination and, like Mhmm. Study and gone. I have this brand new idea, and I think it works. Let’s see.
Mhmm.
It catches like I’ve been following other people’s frameworks for so long.
It feels bizarre to sort of just try be the master instead of the student. I’m awful. I’m all the geese tonight. Sorry.
I love it.
Yes. And very like, it’s such an exciting place to be, I think, when you’re finally generating your own ideas and concepts, right, and models. Right? You’re no longer just a carbon copy of someone else’s path, but you’ve been able to gather enough experience.
And who you are in a life that you’ve lived has enabled you to see things in a different light, and you’re now putting that out there, you know, as something that is uniquely yours. Obviously, very terrifying because if it’s all yours, then it’s all yours to fail. Right? You know?
I think we all feel that on some level.
So just normalizing that for you. And also wanted to say that I think often, particularly when we are pitching ourselves to, people or brands who are really big deal in our space, we often confuse the size of their success with the size of their knowledge about what we have to share. So we’re if you can imagine circles, like, we’re like, okay. They’re this big deal.
Like, this is their knowledge. They’re huge. And I’m like, I’m in here. I’m this little tiny circle in here.
Like, what do I have to offer? But the reality is that we both have big circles of knowledge, and the overlap is quite small. So so much of your circle is absolutely brand new to them even though they’re a huge established business.
I don’t know if that helps, and I don’t know if I’ve explained that very well.
Would be a good time. It’s a Venn diagram.
It’s a circle, and then it’s a circle inside the circle, and then another slightly overlapping circle.
Yes. The big circle is their success.
You know, it’s so interesting you said that, Christy. I Christy, I was actually doing my structural research on my ICP, and one of them is head of content. And doctoral, they give you it gives you keywords. Right?
What are the keywords they’re searching? Like, the top ten keywords are, like, basic SEO tips, like how to do SEO, like a simple beginner’s guide to SEO. It’s like the top ten search, and these are heads of head of content in, like, SaaS companies. And I was like, what?
Thank you.
Isn’t that amazing?
So hopeful.
Yes. That’s so reassuring, isn’t it? It’s like, cool. That’s where their head’s at. It’s like, I’m way above that for that yet.
That’s amazing.
Had anything come up for you, and no pressure.
If if not, feel free to just shake your head, and I won’t force you to to talk to me.
No. No one’s ever forced here. So, yeah. Yeah. I think everything that comes down to what we’re doing in pitch, mindset, everything for me is just the the acceleration nature.
I think these are things that you might, like, be a little dilettante shit and kinda dabble and try and figure it out, but this forces you. There’s like you know, Ryan Schwartz always talked about that, authentic scarcity. It’s not FOMO, but it’s, like, just forcing you to, like there’s an urgent timer behind you and, like, you just feel it and you’re kinda like, stop. Leave me alone.
And it’s just kinda there and it’s but it’s it’s effective. Right? You you’re you’re coming into programs and, and meetings where other people are doing it and you’re seeing it and, like, Claire’s talking about it and what she’s going through, but she’s doing it. She’s showing up.
She’s in the you know, you’re in the boat, Claire. You know what I mean? And it’s it’s tough, but that’s what it is for me. It’s the acceleration.
I I’ve been working ICPs for a while. We did as a a studio, we did ICPs, but it’s always on the website and, you know, it’s more inbound. And what we’re doing now is more outbound. And it’s just accelerating that that approach.
And you’re literally going, like, we sign up for webinars. Now we’re running webinars in a workshop. So it’s just, again, that mindset. Right?
And that’s to me, it’s just the acceleration nature. I love it myself. It makes for long days, but I love it. And when you when we all when you get it together, you can see it’s laid out.
So that’s what it is for me. It’s just taking what I’ve already had and just refining it more. Right? So and this group is kinda like iron sharpening iron for me.
It helps you with everything that we do.
So Amazing.
I love the way you conceptualize things, Todd. It’s very cool to hear because you’re right. There is a big acceleration happening, and I think particularly in CSP. Right? There’s a new theme every month that Joe’s dropping knowledge nuggets everywhere.
And Every month.
Every day, I go I go into coffee school like CSP. I’m like, oh, man.
Do you know what this is?
What you wanna do? And you’re like, oh, just getting it done and trying to document it and do it. And, like, everyone here is it’s funny. Again, everyone here is questioning it, but we’re, you know, it’s like, because we’re learning from a different way and it’s, like, just being patient with it as we accelerate.
Right? But again, yeah. I I mean, I it’s when you say conceptualize, it’s actually for me, the concept that was always there. What I’m learning is that, again, we’re just framing a concept that we already had.
And just making because if it makes sense to us, it will definitely make sense to anybody else because what we do is persuade people.
So That’s right.
So I did also have, just going back to the worksheet, I did also have a section in there to help you actually craft the pitch, but I think just given, that Joe’s workshop is two part. Hang on. Let me put this in present mode.
Sorry. I love that in music. Not sure why that was there.
So I think I will actually leave this, second half of the worksheet for you guys to dive into as you need because I suspect if the workshops themselves aren’t yet finalized, Jo has obviously more to step you through next week. We might be jumping the gun a little bit here.
But please come back and use this if you do need some help and some structure to guide you on getting that first pitch on paper, because often that first one can be the hardest. Right?
And please ping me in Slack as you go if you’re like, hey, Kirsty. I’m getting stuck on this. I need some help with this. Or can you review this for me? I would absolutely love to do that. And the one other thing I note, and I see your hand tied, I’ll, get to you in a sec before I forget.
I suspect after seeing Jo’s worksheet, it may be that, that she will be encouraging you to pitch, leading with pains rather than benefits.
But anyway, that will be TBC. So just highlighting that there may be a difference there.
This is the structure that I usually use for my pictures. My pictures are usually very successful, so this does work. It might just be a different, I guess, focus than what Joe may be may be teaching you. Alright.
Cool. If it’s okay, we have a couple of minutes just sitting where where we are. For anyone who has ever seen me in these these groups, I never really asked for critique. So it’s not something I normally share.
So if possible, if if it’s okay, when you’re saying crafting your pitch, I wrote one. Can I just check it out here and I’ll put it in Slack and then just say it out loud? And I wouldn’t mind some critique on it if possible. Anybody I want a game for that.
Cool. So here’s the in chat, there’s the actual relevance because you you said, like, why am I pitching?
Mhmm. Great. Yep.
And then the actual promise is this.
And the again, if for anyone just reading, the the pitch itself was the targeting is on point. Because we know if you’ve got a great brand, as soon as you start researching them, you’re gonna get retargeting no matter where you’re and what’s going on. And then, yeah, the the promise is what I’m I’m curious about as well.
And the promise is nineteen words, so it’s very on brand voice, Claire. We’ll talk about that after.
So the promise part is, the the way it’s phrased is confusing me a little bit, but maybe I’m just missing a piece of context.
So the promise is that you start with shared language, or is that Yes.
So it’s the it start with shared language. So that’s all all one sentence, but it just broken up with the call. So it start with shared language. K. And shared language is understanding your ICPs.
And when you understand the ICPs that it was one to one interviews, brand voice naturally comes out of that through osmosis. And then, really, what happens, you’re able to stay on brand throughout all channels by knowing your vocabulary, by not only knowing the client, but knowing your vocabulary, your cadence, and your tone.
Awesome. So I’m just curious. Do you think the people you are pitching would know what start with shared language means, that phrase?
No. That’s why the ICP will be bringing them into that. The actual story of the workshop would be ICP. And then as I promote, it will be based on you know, we’ll break down what a shared language is and all of those things, like, through promotion, through authority building.
Okay. Cool. Because I feel like the way you explained it the second time. I was like, ah, cool.
I understand why that’s valuable. So I think for the pitch itself, you know, you need to sort of meet them where they’re at and not use any of your terms too early on in the pitch. Yeah. Because it’s it’s less meaningful.
Right? If they’re like, I don’t know what this means. But if you can explain to them in terms that it’s a mate. Right?
Like, they’re your ICP, so you’re gonna be pulling the words from their head in terms of what they’re thinking about and what they would love to achieve.
I would suggest leading with that and using that language in the promise rather than the language of what you’re going to step them through during the workshop because they’re not there yet.
Hundred percent.
That make sense?
Hundred percent.
Any other thoughts?
If I might add something, I would reconsider putting the part where you say put a face to your ideal flying profile because that sort of gives away a little bit of your process. And I’ve found that sometimes people have resistance towards certain things, so they feel like either they assume they already know what you’re going to talk what you’re going to talk about, but they will decide whether it’s for them or not even before understanding what it is. So I would rather I would actually suggest removing your process from it entirely and only speak about the benefits like you like you did when you act when you’re actually talking about it, you didn’t talk about putting a face. You only talked about the benefits that they will get, which Claire so beautifully summarized. So I think that’s a lot more powerful.
Yep. Hundred percent. Thank you.
Awesome. Any other thoughts from anyone or any other questions from you, Todd? No? Amazing. Thanks for sharing that. Claire?
Yeah. I just wanna say, Todd, I find you so eloquent. Like, when you’re I honestly feel like you should just talk and, like, get it down on paper and then use that. Just talk and tell chat g p t to, like, neaten it up a bit because you’re so eloquent in speech, honestly.
Like, every time you talk, I’m like, oh my gosh. You sound so intelligent. Everything’s, like, all packaged together in these nice ideas. Why can’t I do that?
Can do that on writing.
Like, when I talk, I start going in tangents.
So yeah.
That’s actually what I just summarized was what you, like, said verbatim.
So that yeah.
Okay. My question.
I would love to see an example of one of your, successful or even unsuccessful pitches and what that actually looks like because I have no idea what I would even start typing.
Like Yeah.
Of course.
I’m so happy to share one of those with you. It will be a dive through my Google Drive, though. So is it okay if I pop plunk it in Slack later today? Is that alright?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. Whatever works. That would just be so helpful to, like, yeah, move move past the, like, I don’t know what to write kind of plot.
Yeah. Of course. No problems whatsoever.
And I know. Seeing real life thing is actually quite helpful. I might even have two.
I’ve kept any of these. I may even have some too. I have, like, the back and forth then from the person I was pitching, which might also be helpful to see because often it’s not just that you send the pitch and then it’s like booked in done. There can often be some back and forth in terms of them, you know, working things out and locking it in. So I can see if I have any of those two email chains that I’ve shared and sorry. Kept. And I can share those and just block out names and email addresses so that no one’s vulnerable.
Thank you so much. That’d be very helpful.
My pleasure. Esai.
So my first part of my question was gonna be that, you know, what does that conversation look like? Because, obviously, the first pitch is not gonna be the one that immediately converts. So how do we I have I have a process that I follow for myself and for my clients that sort of works. We do a multichannel approach, like email, social, sort of keep one channel.
We follow-up on follow-up via email, but just sort of chat and just have a friendly conversation via social. So it’s never awkward, even though it’s a door or whatever. The relationship is still alive. But I would love to know your process of what that conversation looks like, One, so thank you for sharing that.
But two, I was also wondering and I know you have a part with call to action here, but what that looks like because it might not be an immediate yes or an immediate let’s get on a call. Right? So would it be better to have a a different call to action at the first pitch, or what is it that you would recommend?
Yeah. So I think this is where context is really important. Right?
So even the platform of which you’re pitching, so you’re thinking about some podcast, right, for example, or if you’re thinking about, speaking inside of someone else’s paid program or mastermind, that’s gonna be different to pitching, say, ActiveCampaign to be, you know, to present a workshop customers. So Mhmm. I think thinking about the context of that, like, what is the call to action that actually makes sense? Like, how are you gonna be most likely to book this workshop in?
So and I think also the context too of, like, what is your relationship with the person you’re pitching? Because in some cases you may have like a connection with them. Maybe you met them at an event, you know, maybe you both have worked with the same person. There could be something there that you could leverage as well.
Or is it just a pure cold pitch, right, where you you just know that this is gonna be a really high value brand for you to actually get in tunnel.
So, thinking through all of those things, I think, can help you determine the call to action.
So for example, with if when I’m pitching podcasts, it’s never jump on a call because I think I’ve actually never had to jump on a call to land a podcast spot. Yeah. Yeah. I find that with podcasts, it’s all done via email.
Yeah. That’s been my experience. So Yeah. My call to action has been usually something along the lines of, you know, how do you think this would land for your audience?
Hit reply and let me know. So something as simple as that that just stimulates a conversation. And then if I don’t hear back from them within, say, three working days, I’ll then just follow-up and say, hey. Just wanted to to see how you you know, how this is sitting for you.
So, you know, a much softer CTA in that case because of the context of the fact that, you know, the podcast track isn’t gonna wanna jump on a call with me before they get me on the podcast. Like, the call was gonna be the interview.
Yeah. Yeah.
But that’s helpful. I just ran with you.
I can No. No. No. That’s helpful because I did. I I am thinking about pitching whole pitching podcast that don’t know me and I don’t have a preexisting relationship with.
So the softer CD, I think, is what I was thinking. Like, how does this idea did did you have the follow-up was thinking, did you have any suggestion? Would you suggest tweaks or what else came up along with Yes. Thing of, like, referencing some of the more recent podcasts.
I think that could be a good way to follow-up as well.
Yes. Definitely. Anything that’s current or relevant, I think, is always a good a good way to follow-up.
And I do think I think, actually, I shared one of my podcast pictures, in Slack a few months ago.
So I can see if it I’ll I’ll go back and tag you in it, Esai, because Yeah.
And maybe Claire as well if you’d like to see that one. I don’t know if podcasts are relevant for yep.
Cool. I’ll I’ll tag you both, and and if anyone else wants me to tag them, let me know.
But that was for Rick Mulready’s, Art of Online Business podcast, which at the time was a really, huge win for me.
So yeah. Was that a yes tag me please too from Todd or okay. Awesome.
Okay.
Easy.
Any final thoughts, questions, conundrums, cries for help?
No.
Well, as always, it’s been an absolute pleasure to spend this hour with you all.
Please ping me in Slack. I’ll go find that post with the podcast pitch now, and I’ll go through my Google Drive and find some more that I can share, Claire, and hopefully some email exchanges too, just so you can see sort of what the back and forth can look like and and how the the pitch can, I guess, not evolve, but how it can sort of have some flex in it to to really meet what the ideal you know, the person you’re pitching might want?
Any questions as you go along and do any of this stuff, if you need any pep talks or anything, please reach out in Slack. Just tag me, and I’ll see it.
I would love to really, like, help you as you go, so please don’t be shy.
Alright. I’ll see you in Slack.
Thank you so much. I’m definitely gonna ask for a pet dog. Great. Yes. Do. Please do.
Alright. Thanks, everyone.
Thank you.
Changing Audiences Without Second-Guessing Every Challenge
Changing Audiences Without Second-Guessing Every Challenge
Transcript
So let’s jump straight into things, so that we don’t waste any more time.
As you probably know, today’s training is essentially the mindset piece to everything that Jo and the other coaches are stepping you through this month, when it comes to your buyer handbook, and looking at potentially changing, shifting, going up market with your ICP.
So, I actually spend a lot of the training portion of today which will just be the first fifteen minutes talking about anxiety.
And by anxiety I don’t necessarily mean clinical anxiety, but feelings of discomfort, of uncertainty, of not knowing.
Because of course when you are in the process of shifting or changing anything about your business, including who you serve and who you work with, there is a level of discomfort when you go about making changes.
Especially, and I think this is really an important point and worth noting, especially when you already have a business that is on some level successful, successful. It’s working for you on some level and I think that that is obviously true of everybody in this room and everybody in this program. You know, you’ve got something to lose. So I just wanted to acknowledge that as a starting point, and just remind you that, you know, as humans, we’re very motivated by loss aversion.
So that’s how we get into that mentality of better the devil you know. So even though you can be in a situation where you can see quite clearly that shifting to a new audience type or serving a new type of prospect will have really amazing potential benefits and wins for your business and where you wanna take things, it’s also unknown. Right? You don’t really know what challenges you’re gonna face until you’re doing it.
So there is a tendency to lean in towards what’s known and what’s comfortable even if it’s not ideal. So let me just start there.
Alright.
Let me share my screen.
Here we go.
And I’m just gonna pull up the worksheet which you all, should have, access to. If you don’t let me know, and I can get Sarah to, follow it follow-up with you.
Sorry. I’m at the bottom preparing last night. So I’m gonna start by, talking about something called the anxiety avoidance cycle. If you’ve been in therapy at all, any sort of anxiety related thing, this will probably look familiar.
But the basic concept is that when we are faced with some sort of situation or scenario that makes us feel anxious, if we then find a way to avoid facing that scenario or going through with that activity, whatever that might be, we get a really immediate wink and that we get immediate short term relief. Right? We can relax and say, I don’t need to deal with that today. You know, that might be future Kirsty’s problem.
I can just, you know, close that tab in my brain. Hooray.
The problem with that is that it actually then leads to long term anxiety growth. So if you do avoid something that makes you uncomfortable, the next time you’re faced with a similar or the same sort of challenge or anxiety, it’s actually going to be a bigger hill for you to climb because you haven’t had the experience of riding that wave of anxiety and getting through to the other side.
So a couple of important things to note about this cycle before I go ahead and contextualise it in business terms.
So, importantly, the experience of being anxious and doing the thing anyway and riding that wave is actually really beneficial even if you don’t get the desired outcome.
So as a really basic life example, when I was a little kid I was terrified of getting dumped by waves at the beach. We lived right near the beach so I was obviously exposed to this anxiety whenever there was a big swell in town. But I remember very clearly, second grade, I got invited to the cool girl’s birthday party. Her name was Tamara Prestwich.
It was at the beach. All the other girls were going into the sea. It was quite a big swell. Peer pressure.
I didn’t want to be the only one staying on the sand doing my usual avoidance tactic. So I went in and I got dumped pretty much straight away. It sucked but it also wasn’t as bad as I’ve been imagining all those years. Right?
So I broke that anxiety curve. I did the thing. The good outcome, which would have been to actually not get dumped by a wave, didn’t happen. But what happened was I got dumped, and I was like, oh, actually not as bad as I thought it would be.
So that obviously is a good example of, how to break this curve and how then you don’t actually have that long term anxiety growth because you’ve had that experience even if the good or planned outcome hasn’t happened. Right?
The other really important thing to note about this cycle too is that the avoidance portion of the program rarely looks as simple as, I I’m just not gonna do that. I feel too scared to do that. Right? Our mindsets are far more nuanced than that and will often present us with things that may on first glance actually look like a good reason to postpone doing the thing.
So to bring this into the realm of business and the realm of updating or going upmarket with your ICP, let’s say, you know, you’re thinking about connecting with a big fish prospect on LinkedIn, but maybe you decide, oh, no. I’m not gonna connect today because I wanna spend some time growing my followers first.
Now this could be a good thing. If you know for absolute certain that the person you’re working out to would not even consider having a conversation with you if you didn’t have above x number of followers, then maybe that is a reason to actually go, you know, spend sixty days building content, building engagement, building those sorts of things. But if that is something that you are assuming and if it is a hoop that you are setting for yourself to jump through, that’s actually avoidance. Right?
That’s you saying, oh, no. No. Let me go. You know, plan sixty days of content, And that is that immediate short term relief because sitting at your laptop or your computer in your office planning out content is probably a really comfortable, safe thing for you to be doing.
So that’s an example of how this cycle can come into play into business and specifically, come into play when you’re looking at, changing something about the people that you serve.
This page here is just a reminder, if it really resonates with you, feel free to print it out and stick it on your desk like a post it. But too often we interpret anxiety, discomfort, or challenge as a sign that we’re deficient or doing something wrong. But more often than not, these things are simply a sign that we’re in the process of pushing for more, different, or better. Right?
It’s a sign that we are in, the process of growing or stretching our comfort zone, which means that we are going to feel uncomfortable for a while while we’re doing that. So just a reminder because I think as I’ve said here, too often, our first thought is, oh, you know, I feel a bit nervous about this. It probably means I’m not ready or I shouldn’t be doing it. If you wait until you’re a hundred percent ready for anything in your business, you’ll be waiting a very long time.
Right? There’s always that little gap that you have to jump over when you do something for the first time and it’s always going to be a little bit uncomfortable, which is such a cruel cruel irony, but there it is.
So bringing this back to the topic at hand, whenever you’re faced with an anxiety or a challenge in your business, and of course this is relevant for all sorts of things not just for audience and ICP stuff but let’s focus on that today. There are two possible paths. Right? You can decide, I’m going to avoid that.
You know, I’m not going to do that thing today. I’m going to wait. You know, your clever brain will likely come up with some very good looking excuse to postpone. And I think one of the challenges, and I imagine something that we may talk about in the discussion period of this, will be how to discern whether something is actually an avoidance tactic or whether it is actually a good strategy.
What’s gonna happen then immediately after is you’re gonna feel relief, but then ultimately, you’re gonna stagnate. Right? Because if you’re not pushing for more, if you’re not trying different things, you’re gonna be getting the same results that you’re currently getting.
On the flip side of the coin, in the second path here, and obviously the one that I wanna encourage you down, you can actually accept the challenge, which will lead in the short term to discomfort. Right? It’s gonna be a bit of a bumpy ride, but then in the longer term, it’s going to lead to growth because you’ve tried new things, you’ve got new skills, you’ve reached out to new people, etcetera, etcetera. So I think it’s really important here when we’re looking at these two paths to just acknowledge that, you know, in the short term, the path of avoidance is way more appealing. Right? Because we’re gonna be happily plugging away in our comfort zones. We’re gonna feel relief that we haven’t had to do any big scary things.
Whereas if we do rise to the challenge, you know, and accept it, you know, we’re gonna be feeling probably quite nervous, you know, probably quite anxious, all of those things. But again, if you look one step further down both of these paths, it’s obvious that the path on the is the one that is going to get you much closer to the goals that you have for your business.
So I know that I’ve put these little examples here on the page, but just to, I guess, contextualize them further. So let’s say that you are thinking about pitching, an upmarket client, right, an upmarket version of your current ICP.
You’re ready to go, but then you start thinking, oh, what if they find out that I’ve never worked with the business as big as theirs before?
Avoidance in that case may look like, okay. Well, you know what? I’m actually just gonna wait until I’ve done x training or I’ve got x certification first. And, again, if you know beyond a threat of doubt that the person that you want to pitch or the business you wanna work with would not even consider a contractor unless they had a certain certification, then yes, this is what you need to do.
You need to go ahead and get that thing first. But if this is you putting up your own hurdles and your own roadblocks and just thinking, no. I’m gonna wait, and I’m gonna go do this thing first. You know, that is avoidance.
Again, there’s always gonna be that little uncomfortable leap that you have to make at some point. So if you do do that, then the feeling of relief might be, okay. Cool. Well, instead of spending the next two hours putting this awesome pitch together, I’m gonna Google courses for x thing.
Right? That’s quite a safe activity that you can indulge in for the rest of the afternoon.
On the other side of the coin, if you have that same anxiety, you know, what if they find out I’ve never worked with someone this big before, but you decide well you know what if they do find that out yeah I’m going to be upfront and own it but I’m also going to own the expertise and the USP that I bring to the table. I’m really clear on how I’m uniquely qualified to help serve this business and help them hit their own goals and I’m going to paint a really clear picture of that for them. And you know, and sure they might be the first client of this size that I’ve worked with but there’s always going to be a first client of that size no matter what I do whether it’s them or someone else.
That’s probably going to feel quite uncomfortable obviously for all sorts of different reasons.
But then even if you do make the pitch, it doesn’t go through, you know it doesn’t get accepted, you don’t land the project, you’re still going to experience some sort of growth from that process because you would have gone through the motions of doing the thing.
You would have built some confidence in that sort of interaction. You might have learned some things about, hey, well, that actually didn’t land so well with that type of client. So next time, I’m gonna you know, change or adjust that.
You might even learn in that process that, hey. I actually did need to get this sort of certification. So, you know, I’m gonna go and do that, then I’m gonna come back to them. So again, the growth may not look like winning the project and hitting the ideal goal. It might look a bit different to that.
Which brings me to my final point, which is all about adopting a growth mindset. So a growth mindset is something I spoke about, I think it might have been in our second or third mindset workshop, so quite a few months ago now.
I don’t actually know if it is on the Copies School Professional website. I’ll check that for you. But, basically, a growth mindset is, all about being open to the fact that, you know, going to do things and you’re going to learn things by failing essentially.
So a failure is not the end of the road, a failure or a falling short or not doing things perfectly is actually an opportunity, for you to grow a skill set, to grow a knowledge base, to grow confidence in yourself, all sorts of things.
So these prompts here are for you guys to use, whenever you’d like.
Actually, Sket, if you would like five or ten minutes to go through these now so that you have something concrete that you might wanna talk about with, just pop a one in the chat box.
Whereas if you would like to just go through these on your own at a later date and spend the rest of the session diving straight into the the coaching portion of things, Pop a two in the chat box so that I can just work out which path is better. I’m sorry. I’ve stopped sharing my screen because I don’t know how to look at my chat while I share it. Okay. Andrew two, Abby two.
Right.
Claire two.
Katie two.
K. Looks like it’s a two, I think.
Claire’s. I don’t know that we’ve met before.
No. No. Sorry. I was in such a fluster when I came in a minute late that I didn’t even realize.
I was also a minute late.
Perfect. Okay. Simple. You didn’t miss anything.
Welcome to the cruise. I love you to meet, and I’m excited to get to know you more and more.
Thank you so much.
No. My pleasure. So two as it is. So we will not go into that process there, but, for future reference, those reflective prompts are there for you so that you can really clearly identify what the challenge is that you’re currently facing or what the anxiety is that you’re currently up against, what the worst case scenario actually is if you go ahead and do the thing anyway, but you mess up or you don’t hit the mark.
And I think that’s a really important one too because often we can get so in our own heads and we can start because sorry. I always mispronounce this word.
Oh my god. Six AM before coffee.
Kitadas oh my god.
Kitadas castrifies.
Thank you, Claire.
Yes. Thank you. You are my savior. Yes.
So we can get our own head, and we can make things snowball and allow them to become bigger than they actually are. So being able to write something down there that’s really concrete can actually help narrow us in and keep us focused, and make the boogeyman, I guess, feel less scary.
The next question there is if that does actually come to pass, then what would I have gained? Right? And this is about flipping you into that growth mindset so that if the worst case scenario does actually happen, you don’t just curl up in a ball on your couch with a big bag of chips and watch some crappy TV. Right? You’re actually able to say, well, actually, things that have come out of this are x and y. And the last prompt there is how does that feed back into your big picture goals. Because I think if you can always see how every action you’re taking is actually bringing you closer to the business that you want to have, you’re going to be able to stay more motivated even when things do not go as planned.
Alright.
So those are there for you, whenever you are ready or needing them.
And let’s, on that note, jump straight into the coaching portion of the call today, and we can talk about anything that I’ve just gone over or anything else that is happening or not happening in your businesses. So, feel free. Who has something they would like to ask or share?
Andrew. It was a steady hand.
I was ready. Can you hear me okay?
Yeah. Perfect.
Okay. Cool.
Yeah. This is very timely for me.
I’m definitely dealing with a lot of indecision around next steps because as you said, like, I have kind of, you know, like, the current state of my business is is going, and and that’s all well and good. And so it doesn’t feel like I can just sort of, like, oh, you know, just try like, just trying something else without making it a full committed effort. It doesn’t seem like a good use of my time. And so the way that this the way that this kind of avoidance cycle manifests for me is that there’s just a lot of, paralysis and indecision. And so, you know, just to to give you an example of of what how that’s showing up in my life right now is, like, right now, I should be working on lead gen.
Just, like, very clear that that’s something that I should be working on right now.
But then my mind goes, okay. Well, in order to do that, I need to, like, figure out exactly what it is that I wanna offer people. And in order to know exactly what it is that I wanna offer people, have to figure out exactly what my business strategy is. And if I wanted to figure out what my business strategy is, then I need to figure out, like, exactly what I want my life to look like.
And then that’s where I kind of get stuck. And something as you were talking that I kind of realized is that I think I’m equally afraid. I’m I’m it’s not just the failure side that freaks me out. It’s also the success side.
Because if I succeed, then there’s also gonna be, like, more responsibility, more risk, more, you know, clients to keep track of? Is that what I want in, you know, in my life? And and so it it feels it’s kinda the term perfectionism doesn’t never really resonated with me, but I do think I deal with it. It’s I think the word perfect is not right, but it’s like there’s some sort of standard in my mind or ideal in my mind that I feel like things need to I need to have like, I I I need to feel a certain level of confidence in my business model and business strategy and my offer before I could do any of that stuff.
And Mhmm. I’ve just been spending a lot of time the past few months of just constantly thinking about, well, I could do things like this or I could do it like that, but I don’t know if I wanna do it that way. I don’t know if I wanna and so, you know, I I I move on some stuff, but then I I don’t move forward with anything meaningful because like, reaching out to people, doing actual lead gen. Sorry about the extra noise.
And so, yeah, I I find myself with just a lot of not moving forward because I have not made a decision.
Mhmm.
Yes. It sounds like you are drowning under the weight of a multitude of decisions. When you were talking about the path that your brain jacks you down, I was like, wow. You’re trying to define Yeah.
And I’m whole life. And I’m high high anxiety, like, long ago, diagnosed medicated therapy, whole deal. So, like, yeah, this is all driven by anxiety for me for sure.
Yep. Oh, you have such good insight into what’s going on for you, which is a really awesome place to start.
I so I I definitely understand that your business and where you wanna take it from what I’ve seen in the Slack group and in some of the other recordings. Like, you know, it is a big movement. Obviously, it does involve growing a team and all those sorts of things, more so than you currently have, although you’re on the past already doing that. So I definitely understand and appreciate that it feels like you can’t just test this thing. Right? You know you’ve sort of got to jump into the deep end in some way.
And at the same time, I wonder if it is possible to jump into the deep end in one way with, like, a test project in that area. So like as an example, I did that with an upmarket version of my client years ago, because I wasn’t sure, like the same reasons as you, I think, about how much I would actually enjoy that process and what it would mean to the responsibility and all those things about my life. I actually didn’t love it. Love working with that kind of client, and it did take a significant portion and chunk of time out of my business to actually do that test project with it.
But I was able to move on that I think because I just brought in the resources I needed for that project on a contract base, if that makes sense. Would something like that be a possibility for you just to get me moving and just to get you testing with real world data?
Yeah. Definitely. I mean, I I and and in a way, a current client that I have right now kind of is that test project, because they are kind of I’m not necessarily changing my ICP as much as I’m changing the way that I structure my end of things going from, like, freelance conversion copywriter to, like, landing page optimization agency or, or CRO agency.
And I think another part of this that I didn’t quite mention on the on the first part is that there’s also like, around the perfectionism thing is that there’s this constant, like like, in terms of trying to figure out my process, what I’m what kind of research am I gonna do versus what am I not gonna do? There’s constantly this battle of, like, oh, you know, like, that’s not really gonna be enough. I need to also add this thing and this thing in order to have enough research. Oh, but then if I add that, then, like, then I’m overcomplicating it.
So, yeah, it’s it’s also indecision about exactly what that process is gonna look like. And and this need to kind of always be looking over my not focusing on what I have in front of me and and committing to the decision, but also, like, always like, oh, is there some other better way? Is someone else doing this better? You know, what do I need to add to this?
What do I need to change?
So it’s a lot of that. A lot of the this endless tweaking or endless, endlessly considering all the possibilities instead of just making a decision, knowing that it’s not gonna be perfect, and committing to it.
Mhmm.
Yep. And does the idea of the the latter, like, I’ll make the decision and knowing it’s not gonna be perfect and knowing you’re gonna find out, you know, answers to those questions as you go, does that just make you incredibly uncomfortable?
I guess. Because I just keep I just kinda keep doing it, and I keep so when it’s time alright. Here’s this way that Joe showed us that we can, like, reach out to people, and it’s, like, straightforward. She’s done all the work for us.
There’s always my mind is always going, oh, no. Wait. But there’s this other thing I haven’t figured out yet. No.
I haven’t figured out the perfect process. I haven’t so I guess so. I guess that there’s I’m I’m not sure what it is that I’m afraid of is gonna happen.
Mhmm.
I don’t think that there’s a negative consequence. I think that there’s just this internal need to to feel like I have something so good that I can’t wait to share it with the world instead of right now where it’s like, oh, I have this thing, but I’m gonna hide it because I’m not sure about it yet.
Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha.
It’s interesting, and I wonder if this perspective shift may help you.
I do genuinely think that the people that we work with actually have such an important role in us shaping our offers and our services so that they are something that is so exciting and so compelling and so compelling and so wonderful. And I think to deny them that opportunity to help us shape something into being is actually a bit selfish because there’s no way that I could create something in isolation in my mind even with all of my experience and all of my knowledge that would be as good as it could be without testing it on real humans, with real businesses, and being able to identify the gaps. So I wonder if here the reframe might be partly that, but also you’re really bloody good at being able to identify things that, you know, could help a process or things that are, you know, surplus as you’re doing the thing. So I wonder how much can you trust yourself to do that on the run versus doing that in isolation before you unleash a thing into the world. Does that make sense?
Yeah. I think so. It sounds like you’re kind of saying to on one, treat it kind of as an experiment, and two, to invite the clients kind of into the process of, of optimizing it into something better.
Yeah. That’s right. And that invitation doesn’t need to be formal. Right? It’s just that, you know, they’re like a a lab rat in in some ways. Right? And, you know, you won’t know how things are gonna play out until you actually have the chance to play them out in real time in the real world.
Yeah. Because I think you you’re definitely like, you’re right.
You’re stuck in that cycle, and I think you’re actually stuck in that cycle.
Yeah.
Yeah. You’re almost like washing machine. It feels like you’re kind of spinning spinning. And I and I feel like you’re at the point now where that anxiety curve has gotten bigger.
It’s like the, you know, the crest to get over to actually do the thing now almost feels insurmountable because your head’s so busy with all of these things. And the reality is, you know, there’s so many questions that you have that you will not be able to answer until you actually do the thing. So Yeah. You’ve just gotta you’ve just gotta get uncomfortable.
Yeah.
No Yeah.
No. That that definitely helps. I think and also the first part about starting smaller in terms of how I think about this, like, not thinking the whole business and the whole future, but thinking about just the next client. What does this business look like for the next client and and nothing else? That that’s helpful because that makes it less overwhelming and less it feels less permanent.
Awesome. What’s the next client?
What is this gonna look like for the next client? Yeah.
Yes. And what could that look like for you then? Because I’d love for you to have in your mind, okay, if you’re just thinking about it in that, like, just that piece, what’s this gonna look like for the next client? Like, just what what is that gonna look like for you in your process? Like, what’s gonna happen for you next? What things you actually gonna action and do?
Yeah. I think that what I need to do is I think I need to focus on, a lead gen activity and letting myself figure out the rest after I have someone on the hook because that’s that’s what worked in the very beginning of my business where where, you know, oh, yeah. Hey. I can help with your email, you know, project.
And then they’re like, okay. Great. And they sign on, and then I’m like, alright. Let me go open ten x emails for the first time.
Let’s do this. So yeah. So, I think that that that could work for me if I just shrink the whole thing down and just think of it as what is who who’s the next client and then figure out what’s what does it look like from there.
I love that. And I love that young if she’s still young, but younger Andrew energy of just like, oh, cool. I’ll book an email project, and then I’ll learn how to do it. I think that’s awesome.
No. He was he was young.
He was in his twenties.
He was young. He was a wise man. And carefree. Yeah. That’s that’s the The last the last thing I just wanna say to you, sorry, and then I’ll stop.
Please, please. Yeah. That’s remember that just because you do something one way once, you’re not locked into doing that again and again forever and ever. Like, you may try this thing and realize that for some reason, something about it or everything about it doesn’t work.
That’s okay. That’s great data to have because now you can build with that in mind. So, you know, I think as well as being overwhelmed by, like, all the things because the decision is feeling so big. Sorry.
I’ll just mute Katie. I think that’s oh, no. She’s on it. Thank you, Katie.
As well as being overwhelmed by that, I do wonder if you’re also like, that’s kinda where that perfectionism is coming in. Like, this idea that, like, you need to get it right first time and, like, you’re gonna be locked into doing it a certain way. Whereas it’s all just a data gathering process. Right? And you can only optimize what you already know.
So I don’t know if that helps, but take that with you if it does.
Yeah. No. It it it does. Thank you. I appreciate it, Christie. Thanks.
My pleasure. Alright. I think, Katie, did you have your hand up earlier, or did I imagine that?
I did, but I have to leave for my daycare run now. So I’m not gonna relinquish my spot. But I just wanted to say, like, everything Andrew asked was very similar to what I was gonna ask. I really struggle with that all or nothing thinking as well as, like, secret like, I always wanna get things in the right order. So it’s like, okay. Well, this would be the next step, but if I do it now, like, I can’t do that until I get all these other things in place. So, Chrissy, your resource that of win slash acceptance really made me feel personally attacked by the in a really helpful way.
And I think what you were just saying to Andrew about, like, thinking of it as doing a service to your clients to act before you’re ready is also really helpful. And if you have anything else to say around fear of success, I’m here for it because I definitely think that that holds fear of success of, like, getting into the room, but then messing it up and being exposed as a fraud is, like, a way bigger fear for me than failing, like, just not having the thing.
Yes. And thank you for bringing it up. Cassandra, sorry. I forgot to touch on your fear of success as well.
It’s, yeah, it’s a big one, isn’t it? Because I feel like the bigger you get and bigger being in a matter you’re working with for your clients, you’re earning more money, you’re more visible, right, you’re more out there, the more vulnerable you feel, right, because you’re more exposed, obviously. So if people disagree with what you’re doing, if someone, you know, God forbid, has had a bad experience with you, like, that can be out there and that is really confronting. But I think one of the threads that runs not just through this fear of success but also, sort of like the all or nothing mentality and having to have all the steps in exactly the right order is that I feel like both of you might be forgetting that you are very intelligent, adaptable, responsive human beings.
Right? You it’s not like you’re gonna have to make all these decisions in isolation and then you’re just gonna play them out no matter what happens. Right? You’ve got your businesses to the point that they’re both currently at by reading the room, by responding to things, by taking really strategic sound actions most of the time.
So I think it’s really important to keep those things in mind. And I always wonder if there might be space for a workshop on self trust, at some point because I feel like ultimately, you know, there’s so much that we can’t control about the world, you know, our clients and projects and all those things. But if we’re able to trust ourselves to make decisions in the moment when those challenges arise, then so much of that becomes so much easier.
I don’t know if any of that resonated with anyone.
That it’s funny because when Andrew was talking, I was thinking it was I just self trust was on my mind for both of us.
Mhmm. Yes.
Awesome.
Okay. And it’s sorry. What Andrew has written here. Trying to figure out the right order is eating a ton of time and mental bandwidth for me. Yep. Yep. So this ordering of things, and I think, again, that’s probably linked to perfectionism, the idea that we must have all our ducks in a row, and they must be perfectly in the right row in the right place at the right time, for us to even take the first step and to get off the ground.
You know, it’s a mindset block one hundred percent because it’s not how learning works. Right? Think about the most basic skills. Like, think about talking.
Like, you don’t all of a sudden one day just open your mouth. Start having full sentences with, like, multisyllabic words. Right? It’s it’s such a process, and you trip and you stumble, but you learn from all of those things.
So I think with that metaphor too, like, the other good thing to note is that you start talking because you’re ready to start. You’re motivated. You wanna do the thing. So maybe that applies here too for reaching and stretching and growing your businesses in all these exciting ways.
That may have just been a very random metaphor, but it’s what came to mind.
Yeah. Awesome. Is there anything else I can quickly talk to you about, Katie, before you go do the, day care drop off? Or, otherwise, we could always continue this in Slack as well.
I’m good. I’m gonna keep listening, but I won’t be able to wave anymore. But thank you, Kirsten. That was helpful.
All good. And, Claire, I think your hand was up next. Hello. Hi.
So, obviously, mostly, my question’s, like, so so much in the same zone, but it’s probably a little bit more linked to the, maybe not fear of success, but, like, the whole imposter syndrome side of things.
Mhmm.
So whenever I try to post something or write something, if I’m, like, writing just for an internal thing, working out a process, I can sit down and write. No problem. The moment I’m like, okay. Let’s come up with a LinkedIn post, my brain starts going, you know nothing.
Everyone else already knows this. It’s very obvious. It’s out there. You learned this by listening to someone else.
Why wouldn’t they listen to someone else? Why listen to you?
And I get myself into this, like, whirlwind. Even when I answer, like, things on calls, I’m like, they’re gonna know. They’re gonna know mid talk, and then I start stumbling.
If it doesn’t happen, I know I could be really great. But if, like, that anxiety kicks up, it just makes me ramble.
Yeah.
So I don’t know how to deal with that.
Do you have any tips?
Yeah. Sure. And, also, I don’t know if you noticed, but Andrew was definitely nodding there. So I just wanted to highlight that I feel like everything everyone shared so far is an experience that most people in the room have also had. So just know, one, it’s very normal.
Two, you’re in good company. And three, it’s not a sign that you’re not doing the right work and doing the right thing. Right? We all have those moments where we worry that what we have to share or what to say is not good enough, not new enough, not interesting enough, not valuable enough.
But I think we also all have those moments where we manage to wow a a client just by saying something that we think is quite middle of the road. And they’re like, I never knew this. And they’re like, look at me with my expertise.
So, I mean, obviously, that’s, something that can really help with that, but that’s not something that’s in your control. Right? So let’s not focus on that. We can’t control other people’s reactions. We can only control our actions and to some extent our feelings about those.
So I’m just wondering when you feel this imposter syndrome hit, is it always when you are sharing your own knowledge or your own skill set? Is it is it confined to that, or is it more broad?
Yeah. I think so.
Because it’s in my mind, it’s not my own knowledge. It’s, like, knowledge learned. Do you know what I mean? Like, I’ve acquired this knowledge from lots of other experts, lots of other people. It’s technically theirs. I’ve just learned it.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Sure. Which is the case, I think, for all of us in this room. Right? We haven’t all just spoken up one day and discovered the craft of copywriting on our own.
I think it’s important to remember that, yes, you know, everyone learns their expertise and their craft from somewhere. Right? It’s how education systems work. For example, you get a degree to be a doctor, like, you know, that’s a maybe an example that’s quite helpful to think about.
I think what’s important to remember is that you are going to always bring your own USP and your own uniqueness to the table. Right? There’s gonna be something about the way that you share that information that’s gonna resonate with the right people. There’s gonna be something about, you know, your experience of utilizing that information or using that skill that’s gonna be really appealing to the right people.
So I think it’s again of thinking about your niche, right, and who it is you’re actually speaking to, and how what you have to share is actually hyper relevant for them. Because I think if any of us broaden out, you know, the kind of content that we would share to a white audience, it’s going to be compelling for a whole group of people, right? We have to go narrow, think narrow, and think about how to actually, you know, resonate with that person. I think another thing that can help too in those moments of imposter syndrome, especially when you’re in the middle of a a call or a conversation with a prospect or a client, is just to remember that what you’re having is actually a conversation. Right? It’s a back and forth. So it’s not a show and tell necessarily.
You know, if you can just bring it back down to that human level, that can often relieve some of that anxiety of you feeling like you’re on show, of you feeling like you’re up on a stage of some sort. Because if you just think, hey, I’m just having a chat with Claire. Like, we’re just talking about this. They’ve asked a great question.
I know the answer. Here it is. That flow can actually help bring those levels of anxiety down so that you feel less watched and just more present in the moment. Because I think something that you also, shared when you were talking about that is that it’s almost like there’s this version of Claire that hovers above you and, like, watches and is aware of what you’re doing and is possibly judging or worrying for you.
Is that is that sort of the case?
Yeah. It’s like, oh, look. Now you’re rambling. Of course you are.
Yes. Yeah. Okay. So I think it would be very helpful if if we could find ways to stop that sort of dissociation happening and and having so much of your brain up there watching, judging what you’re doing because of course that’s taking you out of the present moment.
And of course would be impacting your ability to actually you know, show up confidently. You know, it would be imagine if there was an actual person behind you saying those things. Like, that would be so distracting. So it’s the same kind of concept.
So I think it might actually be good to work with anything that brings you into the present moment. So really focusing, on the person you’re speaking to, maybe even grounding yourself with some really subtle exercises. So, do you normally meet in person or on Zoom with your clients or prospects? On Zoom.
Awesome. So a really good grounding exercise because, obviously, on Zoom, no one can see your feet unless you have a very strange camera setup that I’ve not seen before.
Even just scrunching your toes into whatever floor you have underneath your desk and just noticing the sensation, noticing what it feels like, that’s a really good way just to bring you back into your body, so that you have less of those sort of out of body floating above or behind the shoulder kind of, moments. So even something as simple as that, I would love for you to try that and then report back in Slack and just let me know if something that simple can actually help bring you back into the present, into the conversation, and out of that nasty imposter syndrome.
Oh, well, that’s super helpful. Thank you.
My pleasure. Todd, I think I might have seen your hand before unless I also imagine that.
Well, first off, this is great. Great workshop.
I’ll be honest. The last couple of days for me, I’ve had, anxiety, and it’s actually coming to a group and talking about it about it. For me, it’s like, Andrew and I actually have a call scheduled for tomorrow. And for me, it’s the CRO side of it.
Like, am I making the right decision if I’m gonna go with the CRO side of it? I talked a little bit to Tina about it. I’ll be quite honest. I don’t have an issue with process.
I’ve got a nail down, dialed in process. I know that when it runs, it runs extremely well.
I’m closing out a project right now, and the process is so dialed. I’m like, I don’t even wanna go and do it because it’s gonna be easy. And it’s one of those things. I don’t have that, but I have the anxiety side of it, and it’s great to have the conversation about, like, okay. Is this gonna be the right thing?
Mhmm.
And, you know, I’ve got other client work in the background. But you made me think of something that’s kind of important, and I will impart this if I can.
Had a client in the past, and they are Canadian special forces. So they’ve shared conversations where they’ve if not to get too deep into it, where they’ve actually had their superiors over somebody they just killed in a war, or they’ve been on a spot in the world where their only contact the rest of the world is when a satellite passes over their head. And it goes back to the stoics. And one of the things that when you’re talking about self trust and everything, you just made me think of something, and I’m like, excuse my language, but I’m like, shit.
I forgot all about that. And it’s called the only thing you can control is your controllables. That’s it. That’s the only thing you can control is what you can control.
And for me, what I’m thinking a little bit more of is doing anything I can control in the day, you know, not tomorrow or what happened yesterday, but today, is just showing up and showing up and doing what you can in that day. And it might not be the win you want or the huge success you want, but just showing up in that day and just doing what you can in that day, that’s a controllable that you can control. That I don’t know. For me, I think those stack up, And I think the more they stack up, the less the other days can kinda stack, and you actually are standing over it more than it standing over you.
So that was just my comment. It just made me remember, like, control your controllables. And that’s that’s a tough thing to do for me, especially in the last couple of days. Because it’s like, oh, okay.
Where is this going? What am I gonna do? What is this going to look like? You know?
And and all these things. So that’s all. Just wanted to impart that. That’s just it’s a very important thing to do.
It’s just control your controllables. That’s it. It’s all you can do. Right?
So Hundred percent.
Thanks so much for sharing that, Todd. That’s so timely. And, yes, And like you say, just showing up every day and doing the thing, I think, can also help when things feel overwhelming. Right?
It’s like we’re not trying to plan and execute every single thing for the business that you wanna have two years from now. It’s about what little things can actually do today that day after day can add up. So I think if, yeah, looking if looking and thinking too broad is something that causes anxiety, then bringing it back into that. And, again, yeah, what you can control, so helpful.
So thanks for sharing. That’s awesome.
Anyone else have any questions, concerns?
Hello?
All good? Okay.
So I’m never sure how long to wait in case someone’s just been shy, but I feel like we might be all questioned out for this morning.
We’re all just anxious.
I know. You’re like, oh god. This workshop was, like, my avoidant part of my day. Now I have to actually go and do some work.
What is this? Well but thank you so much for showing up this morning. Thank you so much for sharing so openly and honestly. I think the more honest that we can all be about these feelings and doubts that we have, you know, the more we just feel like, oh, we’re in the right room and we’re doing the right things.
Right? Everyone here is in the right place doing the right things. And because you have those doubts, you know, it it doesn’t mean anything about your qualifications, or where you’re headed with your business whatsoever. It’s all part of being human, unfortunately.
So please feel free to reach out and continue any of these conversations in Slack. I would love that, or have a chat with Zoe about Zoe with Joe, sorry, about, doing a workshop on self doubt, and see where that might be able to fit in because it sounds like that might be a helpful one. Sorry. Self trust. Sorry. Sorry. My baby was awake every hour last night, so she’s functioning on bare minimum.
But, yes, I will see you all in Slack, and I’ll see you again on Zoom next month.
Bye, everyone.
Transcript
So let’s jump straight into things, so that we don’t waste any more time.
As you probably know, today’s training is essentially the mindset piece to everything that Jo and the other coaches are stepping you through this month, when it comes to your buyer handbook, and looking at potentially changing, shifting, going up market with your ICP.
So, I actually spend a lot of the training portion of today which will just be the first fifteen minutes talking about anxiety.
And by anxiety I don’t necessarily mean clinical anxiety, but feelings of discomfort, of uncertainty, of not knowing.
Because of course when you are in the process of shifting or changing anything about your business, including who you serve and who you work with, there is a level of discomfort when you go about making changes.
Especially, and I think this is really an important point and worth noting, especially when you already have a business that is on some level successful, successful. It’s working for you on some level and I think that that is obviously true of everybody in this room and everybody in this program. You know, you’ve got something to lose. So I just wanted to acknowledge that as a starting point, and just remind you that, you know, as humans, we’re very motivated by loss aversion.
So that’s how we get into that mentality of better the devil you know. So even though you can be in a situation where you can see quite clearly that shifting to a new audience type or serving a new type of prospect will have really amazing potential benefits and wins for your business and where you wanna take things, it’s also unknown. Right? You don’t really know what challenges you’re gonna face until you’re doing it.
So there is a tendency to lean in towards what’s known and what’s comfortable even if it’s not ideal. So let me just start there.
Alright.
Let me share my screen.
Here we go.
And I’m just gonna pull up the worksheet which you all, should have, access to. If you don’t let me know, and I can get Sarah to, follow it follow-up with you.
Sorry. I’m at the bottom preparing last night. So I’m gonna start by, talking about something called the anxiety avoidance cycle. If you’ve been in therapy at all, any sort of anxiety related thing, this will probably look familiar.
But the basic concept is that when we are faced with some sort of situation or scenario that makes us feel anxious, if we then find a way to avoid facing that scenario or going through with that activity, whatever that might be, we get a really immediate wink and that we get immediate short term relief. Right? We can relax and say, I don’t need to deal with that today. You know, that might be future Kirsty’s problem.
I can just, you know, close that tab in my brain. Hooray.
The problem with that is that it actually then leads to long term anxiety growth. So if you do avoid something that makes you uncomfortable, the next time you’re faced with a similar or the same sort of challenge or anxiety, it’s actually going to be a bigger hill for you to climb because you haven’t had the experience of riding that wave of anxiety and getting through to the other side.
So a couple of important things to note about this cycle before I go ahead and contextualise it in business terms.
So, importantly, the experience of being anxious and doing the thing anyway and riding that wave is actually really beneficial even if you don’t get the desired outcome.
So as a really basic life example, when I was a little kid I was terrified of getting dumped by waves at the beach. We lived right near the beach so I was obviously exposed to this anxiety whenever there was a big swell in town. But I remember very clearly, second grade, I got invited to the cool girl’s birthday party. Her name was Tamara Prestwich.
It was at the beach. All the other girls were going into the sea. It was quite a big swell. Peer pressure.
I didn’t want to be the only one staying on the sand doing my usual avoidance tactic. So I went in and I got dumped pretty much straight away. It sucked but it also wasn’t as bad as I’ve been imagining all those years. Right?
So I broke that anxiety curve. I did the thing. The good outcome, which would have been to actually not get dumped by a wave, didn’t happen. But what happened was I got dumped, and I was like, oh, actually not as bad as I thought it would be.
So that obviously is a good example of, how to break this curve and how then you don’t actually have that long term anxiety growth because you’ve had that experience even if the good or planned outcome hasn’t happened. Right?
The other really important thing to note about this cycle too is that the avoidance portion of the program rarely looks as simple as, I I’m just not gonna do that. I feel too scared to do that. Right? Our mindsets are far more nuanced than that and will often present us with things that may on first glance actually look like a good reason to postpone doing the thing.
So to bring this into the realm of business and the realm of updating or going upmarket with your ICP, let’s say, you know, you’re thinking about connecting with a big fish prospect on LinkedIn, but maybe you decide, oh, no. I’m not gonna connect today because I wanna spend some time growing my followers first.
Now this could be a good thing. If you know for absolute certain that the person you’re working out to would not even consider having a conversation with you if you didn’t have above x number of followers, then maybe that is a reason to actually go, you know, spend sixty days building content, building engagement, building those sorts of things. But if that is something that you are assuming and if it is a hoop that you are setting for yourself to jump through, that’s actually avoidance. Right?
That’s you saying, oh, no. No. Let me go. You know, plan sixty days of content, And that is that immediate short term relief because sitting at your laptop or your computer in your office planning out content is probably a really comfortable, safe thing for you to be doing.
So that’s an example of how this cycle can come into play into business and specifically, come into play when you’re looking at, changing something about the people that you serve.
This page here is just a reminder, if it really resonates with you, feel free to print it out and stick it on your desk like a post it. But too often we interpret anxiety, discomfort, or challenge as a sign that we’re deficient or doing something wrong. But more often than not, these things are simply a sign that we’re in the process of pushing for more, different, or better. Right?
It’s a sign that we are in, the process of growing or stretching our comfort zone, which means that we are going to feel uncomfortable for a while while we’re doing that. So just a reminder because I think as I’ve said here, too often, our first thought is, oh, you know, I feel a bit nervous about this. It probably means I’m not ready or I shouldn’t be doing it. If you wait until you’re a hundred percent ready for anything in your business, you’ll be waiting a very long time.
Right? There’s always that little gap that you have to jump over when you do something for the first time and it’s always going to be a little bit uncomfortable, which is such a cruel cruel irony, but there it is.
So bringing this back to the topic at hand, whenever you’re faced with an anxiety or a challenge in your business, and of course this is relevant for all sorts of things not just for audience and ICP stuff but let’s focus on that today. There are two possible paths. Right? You can decide, I’m going to avoid that.
You know, I’m not going to do that thing today. I’m going to wait. You know, your clever brain will likely come up with some very good looking excuse to postpone. And I think one of the challenges, and I imagine something that we may talk about in the discussion period of this, will be how to discern whether something is actually an avoidance tactic or whether it is actually a good strategy.
What’s gonna happen then immediately after is you’re gonna feel relief, but then ultimately, you’re gonna stagnate. Right? Because if you’re not pushing for more, if you’re not trying different things, you’re gonna be getting the same results that you’re currently getting.
On the flip side of the coin, in the second path here, and obviously the one that I wanna encourage you down, you can actually accept the challenge, which will lead in the short term to discomfort. Right? It’s gonna be a bit of a bumpy ride, but then in the longer term, it’s going to lead to growth because you’ve tried new things, you’ve got new skills, you’ve reached out to new people, etcetera, etcetera. So I think it’s really important here when we’re looking at these two paths to just acknowledge that, you know, in the short term, the path of avoidance is way more appealing. Right? Because we’re gonna be happily plugging away in our comfort zones. We’re gonna feel relief that we haven’t had to do any big scary things.
Whereas if we do rise to the challenge, you know, and accept it, you know, we’re gonna be feeling probably quite nervous, you know, probably quite anxious, all of those things. But again, if you look one step further down both of these paths, it’s obvious that the path on the is the one that is going to get you much closer to the goals that you have for your business.
So I know that I’ve put these little examples here on the page, but just to, I guess, contextualize them further. So let’s say that you are thinking about pitching, an upmarket client, right, an upmarket version of your current ICP.
You’re ready to go, but then you start thinking, oh, what if they find out that I’ve never worked with the business as big as theirs before?
Avoidance in that case may look like, okay. Well, you know what? I’m actually just gonna wait until I’ve done x training or I’ve got x certification first. And, again, if you know beyond a threat of doubt that the person that you want to pitch or the business you wanna work with would not even consider a contractor unless they had a certain certification, then yes, this is what you need to do.
You need to go ahead and get that thing first. But if this is you putting up your own hurdles and your own roadblocks and just thinking, no. I’m gonna wait, and I’m gonna go do this thing first. You know, that is avoidance.
Again, there’s always gonna be that little uncomfortable leap that you have to make at some point. So if you do do that, then the feeling of relief might be, okay. Cool. Well, instead of spending the next two hours putting this awesome pitch together, I’m gonna Google courses for x thing.
Right? That’s quite a safe activity that you can indulge in for the rest of the afternoon.
On the other side of the coin, if you have that same anxiety, you know, what if they find out I’ve never worked with someone this big before, but you decide well you know what if they do find that out yeah I’m going to be upfront and own it but I’m also going to own the expertise and the USP that I bring to the table. I’m really clear on how I’m uniquely qualified to help serve this business and help them hit their own goals and I’m going to paint a really clear picture of that for them. And you know, and sure they might be the first client of this size that I’ve worked with but there’s always going to be a first client of that size no matter what I do whether it’s them or someone else.
That’s probably going to feel quite uncomfortable obviously for all sorts of different reasons.
But then even if you do make the pitch, it doesn’t go through, you know it doesn’t get accepted, you don’t land the project, you’re still going to experience some sort of growth from that process because you would have gone through the motions of doing the thing.
You would have built some confidence in that sort of interaction. You might have learned some things about, hey, well, that actually didn’t land so well with that type of client. So next time, I’m gonna you know, change or adjust that.
You might even learn in that process that, hey. I actually did need to get this sort of certification. So, you know, I’m gonna go and do that, then I’m gonna come back to them. So again, the growth may not look like winning the project and hitting the ideal goal. It might look a bit different to that.
Which brings me to my final point, which is all about adopting a growth mindset. So a growth mindset is something I spoke about, I think it might have been in our second or third mindset workshop, so quite a few months ago now.
I don’t actually know if it is on the Copies School Professional website. I’ll check that for you. But, basically, a growth mindset is, all about being open to the fact that, you know, going to do things and you’re going to learn things by failing essentially.
So a failure is not the end of the road, a failure or a falling short or not doing things perfectly is actually an opportunity, for you to grow a skill set, to grow a knowledge base, to grow confidence in yourself, all sorts of things.
So these prompts here are for you guys to use, whenever you’d like.
Actually, Sket, if you would like five or ten minutes to go through these now so that you have something concrete that you might wanna talk about with, just pop a one in the chat box.
Whereas if you would like to just go through these on your own at a later date and spend the rest of the session diving straight into the the coaching portion of things, Pop a two in the chat box so that I can just work out which path is better. I’m sorry. I’ve stopped sharing my screen because I don’t know how to look at my chat while I share it. Okay. Andrew two, Abby two.
Right.
Claire two.
Katie two.
K. Looks like it’s a two, I think.
Claire’s. I don’t know that we’ve met before.
No. No. Sorry. I was in such a fluster when I came in a minute late that I didn’t even realize.
I was also a minute late.
Perfect. Okay. Simple. You didn’t miss anything.
Welcome to the cruise. I love you to meet, and I’m excited to get to know you more and more.
Thank you so much.
No. My pleasure. So two as it is. So we will not go into that process there, but, for future reference, those reflective prompts are there for you so that you can really clearly identify what the challenge is that you’re currently facing or what the anxiety is that you’re currently up against, what the worst case scenario actually is if you go ahead and do the thing anyway, but you mess up or you don’t hit the mark.
And I think that’s a really important one too because often we can get so in our own heads and we can start because sorry. I always mispronounce this word.
Oh my god. Six AM before coffee.
Kitadas oh my god.
Kitadas castrifies.
Thank you, Claire.
Yes. Thank you. You are my savior. Yes.
So we can get our own head, and we can make things snowball and allow them to become bigger than they actually are. So being able to write something down there that’s really concrete can actually help narrow us in and keep us focused, and make the boogeyman, I guess, feel less scary.
The next question there is if that does actually come to pass, then what would I have gained? Right? And this is about flipping you into that growth mindset so that if the worst case scenario does actually happen, you don’t just curl up in a ball on your couch with a big bag of chips and watch some crappy TV. Right? You’re actually able to say, well, actually, things that have come out of this are x and y. And the last prompt there is how does that feed back into your big picture goals. Because I think if you can always see how every action you’re taking is actually bringing you closer to the business that you want to have, you’re going to be able to stay more motivated even when things do not go as planned.
Alright.
So those are there for you, whenever you are ready or needing them.
And let’s, on that note, jump straight into the coaching portion of the call today, and we can talk about anything that I’ve just gone over or anything else that is happening or not happening in your businesses. So, feel free. Who has something they would like to ask or share?
Andrew. It was a steady hand.
I was ready. Can you hear me okay?
Yeah. Perfect.
Okay. Cool.
Yeah. This is very timely for me.
I’m definitely dealing with a lot of indecision around next steps because as you said, like, I have kind of, you know, like, the current state of my business is is going, and and that’s all well and good. And so it doesn’t feel like I can just sort of, like, oh, you know, just try like, just trying something else without making it a full committed effort. It doesn’t seem like a good use of my time. And so the way that this the way that this kind of avoidance cycle manifests for me is that there’s just a lot of, paralysis and indecision. And so, you know, just to to give you an example of of what how that’s showing up in my life right now is, like, right now, I should be working on lead gen.
Just, like, very clear that that’s something that I should be working on right now.
But then my mind goes, okay. Well, in order to do that, I need to, like, figure out exactly what it is that I wanna offer people. And in order to know exactly what it is that I wanna offer people, have to figure out exactly what my business strategy is. And if I wanted to figure out what my business strategy is, then I need to figure out, like, exactly what I want my life to look like.
And then that’s where I kind of get stuck. And something as you were talking that I kind of realized is that I think I’m equally afraid. I’m I’m it’s not just the failure side that freaks me out. It’s also the success side.
Because if I succeed, then there’s also gonna be, like, more responsibility, more risk, more, you know, clients to keep track of? Is that what I want in, you know, in my life? And and so it it feels it’s kinda the term perfectionism doesn’t never really resonated with me, but I do think I deal with it. It’s I think the word perfect is not right, but it’s like there’s some sort of standard in my mind or ideal in my mind that I feel like things need to I need to have like, I I I need to feel a certain level of confidence in my business model and business strategy and my offer before I could do any of that stuff.
And Mhmm. I’ve just been spending a lot of time the past few months of just constantly thinking about, well, I could do things like this or I could do it like that, but I don’t know if I wanna do it that way. I don’t know if I wanna and so, you know, I I I move on some stuff, but then I I don’t move forward with anything meaningful because like, reaching out to people, doing actual lead gen. Sorry about the extra noise.
And so, yeah, I I find myself with just a lot of not moving forward because I have not made a decision.
Mhmm.
Yes. It sounds like you are drowning under the weight of a multitude of decisions. When you were talking about the path that your brain jacks you down, I was like, wow. You’re trying to define Yeah.
And I’m whole life. And I’m high high anxiety, like, long ago, diagnosed medicated therapy, whole deal. So, like, yeah, this is all driven by anxiety for me for sure.
Yep. Oh, you have such good insight into what’s going on for you, which is a really awesome place to start.
I so I I definitely understand that your business and where you wanna take it from what I’ve seen in the Slack group and in some of the other recordings. Like, you know, it is a big movement. Obviously, it does involve growing a team and all those sorts of things, more so than you currently have, although you’re on the past already doing that. So I definitely understand and appreciate that it feels like you can’t just test this thing. Right? You know you’ve sort of got to jump into the deep end in some way.
And at the same time, I wonder if it is possible to jump into the deep end in one way with, like, a test project in that area. So like as an example, I did that with an upmarket version of my client years ago, because I wasn’t sure, like the same reasons as you, I think, about how much I would actually enjoy that process and what it would mean to the responsibility and all those things about my life. I actually didn’t love it. Love working with that kind of client, and it did take a significant portion and chunk of time out of my business to actually do that test project with it.
But I was able to move on that I think because I just brought in the resources I needed for that project on a contract base, if that makes sense. Would something like that be a possibility for you just to get me moving and just to get you testing with real world data?
Yeah. Definitely. I mean, I I and and in a way, a current client that I have right now kind of is that test project, because they are kind of I’m not necessarily changing my ICP as much as I’m changing the way that I structure my end of things going from, like, freelance conversion copywriter to, like, landing page optimization agency or, or CRO agency.
And I think another part of this that I didn’t quite mention on the on the first part is that there’s also like, around the perfectionism thing is that there’s this constant, like like, in terms of trying to figure out my process, what I’m what kind of research am I gonna do versus what am I not gonna do? There’s constantly this battle of, like, oh, you know, like, that’s not really gonna be enough. I need to also add this thing and this thing in order to have enough research. Oh, but then if I add that, then, like, then I’m overcomplicating it.
So, yeah, it’s it’s also indecision about exactly what that process is gonna look like. And and this need to kind of always be looking over my not focusing on what I have in front of me and and committing to the decision, but also, like, always like, oh, is there some other better way? Is someone else doing this better? You know, what do I need to add to this?
What do I need to change?
So it’s a lot of that. A lot of the this endless tweaking or endless, endlessly considering all the possibilities instead of just making a decision, knowing that it’s not gonna be perfect, and committing to it.
Mhmm.
Yep. And does the idea of the the latter, like, I’ll make the decision and knowing it’s not gonna be perfect and knowing you’re gonna find out, you know, answers to those questions as you go, does that just make you incredibly uncomfortable?
I guess. Because I just keep I just kinda keep doing it, and I keep so when it’s time alright. Here’s this way that Joe showed us that we can, like, reach out to people, and it’s, like, straightforward. She’s done all the work for us.
There’s always my mind is always going, oh, no. Wait. But there’s this other thing I haven’t figured out yet. No.
I haven’t figured out the perfect process. I haven’t so I guess so. I guess that there’s I’m I’m not sure what it is that I’m afraid of is gonna happen.
Mhmm.
I don’t think that there’s a negative consequence. I think that there’s just this internal need to to feel like I have something so good that I can’t wait to share it with the world instead of right now where it’s like, oh, I have this thing, but I’m gonna hide it because I’m not sure about it yet.
Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha.
It’s interesting, and I wonder if this perspective shift may help you.
I do genuinely think that the people that we work with actually have such an important role in us shaping our offers and our services so that they are something that is so exciting and so compelling and so compelling and so wonderful. And I think to deny them that opportunity to help us shape something into being is actually a bit selfish because there’s no way that I could create something in isolation in my mind even with all of my experience and all of my knowledge that would be as good as it could be without testing it on real humans, with real businesses, and being able to identify the gaps. So I wonder if here the reframe might be partly that, but also you’re really bloody good at being able to identify things that, you know, could help a process or things that are, you know, surplus as you’re doing the thing. So I wonder how much can you trust yourself to do that on the run versus doing that in isolation before you unleash a thing into the world. Does that make sense?
Yeah. I think so. It sounds like you’re kind of saying to on one, treat it kind of as an experiment, and two, to invite the clients kind of into the process of, of optimizing it into something better.
Yeah. That’s right. And that invitation doesn’t need to be formal. Right? It’s just that, you know, they’re like a a lab rat in in some ways. Right? And, you know, you won’t know how things are gonna play out until you actually have the chance to play them out in real time in the real world.
Yeah. Because I think you you’re definitely like, you’re right.
You’re stuck in that cycle, and I think you’re actually stuck in that cycle.
Yeah.
Yeah. You’re almost like washing machine. It feels like you’re kind of spinning spinning. And I and I feel like you’re at the point now where that anxiety curve has gotten bigger.
It’s like the, you know, the crest to get over to actually do the thing now almost feels insurmountable because your head’s so busy with all of these things. And the reality is, you know, there’s so many questions that you have that you will not be able to answer until you actually do the thing. So Yeah. You’ve just gotta you’ve just gotta get uncomfortable.
Yeah.
No Yeah.
No. That that definitely helps. I think and also the first part about starting smaller in terms of how I think about this, like, not thinking the whole business and the whole future, but thinking about just the next client. What does this business look like for the next client and and nothing else? That that’s helpful because that makes it less overwhelming and less it feels less permanent.
Awesome. What’s the next client?
What is this gonna look like for the next client? Yeah.
Yes. And what could that look like for you then? Because I’d love for you to have in your mind, okay, if you’re just thinking about it in that, like, just that piece, what’s this gonna look like for the next client? Like, just what what is that gonna look like for you in your process? Like, what’s gonna happen for you next? What things you actually gonna action and do?
Yeah. I think that what I need to do is I think I need to focus on, a lead gen activity and letting myself figure out the rest after I have someone on the hook because that’s that’s what worked in the very beginning of my business where where, you know, oh, yeah. Hey. I can help with your email, you know, project.
And then they’re like, okay. Great. And they sign on, and then I’m like, alright. Let me go open ten x emails for the first time.
Let’s do this. So yeah. So, I think that that that could work for me if I just shrink the whole thing down and just think of it as what is who who’s the next client and then figure out what’s what does it look like from there.
I love that. And I love that young if she’s still young, but younger Andrew energy of just like, oh, cool. I’ll book an email project, and then I’ll learn how to do it. I think that’s awesome.
No. He was he was young.
He was in his twenties.
He was young. He was a wise man. And carefree. Yeah. That’s that’s the The last the last thing I just wanna say to you, sorry, and then I’ll stop.
Please, please. Yeah. That’s remember that just because you do something one way once, you’re not locked into doing that again and again forever and ever. Like, you may try this thing and realize that for some reason, something about it or everything about it doesn’t work.
That’s okay. That’s great data to have because now you can build with that in mind. So, you know, I think as well as being overwhelmed by, like, all the things because the decision is feeling so big. Sorry.
I’ll just mute Katie. I think that’s oh, no. She’s on it. Thank you, Katie.
As well as being overwhelmed by that, I do wonder if you’re also like, that’s kinda where that perfectionism is coming in. Like, this idea that, like, you need to get it right first time and, like, you’re gonna be locked into doing it a certain way. Whereas it’s all just a data gathering process. Right? And you can only optimize what you already know.
So I don’t know if that helps, but take that with you if it does.
Yeah. No. It it it does. Thank you. I appreciate it, Christie. Thanks.
My pleasure. Alright. I think, Katie, did you have your hand up earlier, or did I imagine that?
I did, but I have to leave for my daycare run now. So I’m not gonna relinquish my spot. But I just wanted to say, like, everything Andrew asked was very similar to what I was gonna ask. I really struggle with that all or nothing thinking as well as, like, secret like, I always wanna get things in the right order. So it’s like, okay. Well, this would be the next step, but if I do it now, like, I can’t do that until I get all these other things in place. So, Chrissy, your resource that of win slash acceptance really made me feel personally attacked by the in a really helpful way.
And I think what you were just saying to Andrew about, like, thinking of it as doing a service to your clients to act before you’re ready is also really helpful. And if you have anything else to say around fear of success, I’m here for it because I definitely think that that holds fear of success of, like, getting into the room, but then messing it up and being exposed as a fraud is, like, a way bigger fear for me than failing, like, just not having the thing.
Yes. And thank you for bringing it up. Cassandra, sorry. I forgot to touch on your fear of success as well.
It’s, yeah, it’s a big one, isn’t it? Because I feel like the bigger you get and bigger being in a matter you’re working with for your clients, you’re earning more money, you’re more visible, right, you’re more out there, the more vulnerable you feel, right, because you’re more exposed, obviously. So if people disagree with what you’re doing, if someone, you know, God forbid, has had a bad experience with you, like, that can be out there and that is really confronting. But I think one of the threads that runs not just through this fear of success but also, sort of like the all or nothing mentality and having to have all the steps in exactly the right order is that I feel like both of you might be forgetting that you are very intelligent, adaptable, responsive human beings.
Right? You it’s not like you’re gonna have to make all these decisions in isolation and then you’re just gonna play them out no matter what happens. Right? You’ve got your businesses to the point that they’re both currently at by reading the room, by responding to things, by taking really strategic sound actions most of the time.
So I think it’s really important to keep those things in mind. And I always wonder if there might be space for a workshop on self trust, at some point because I feel like ultimately, you know, there’s so much that we can’t control about the world, you know, our clients and projects and all those things. But if we’re able to trust ourselves to make decisions in the moment when those challenges arise, then so much of that becomes so much easier.
I don’t know if any of that resonated with anyone.
That it’s funny because when Andrew was talking, I was thinking it was I just self trust was on my mind for both of us.
Mhmm. Yes.
Awesome.
Okay. And it’s sorry. What Andrew has written here. Trying to figure out the right order is eating a ton of time and mental bandwidth for me. Yep. Yep. So this ordering of things, and I think, again, that’s probably linked to perfectionism, the idea that we must have all our ducks in a row, and they must be perfectly in the right row in the right place at the right time, for us to even take the first step and to get off the ground.
You know, it’s a mindset block one hundred percent because it’s not how learning works. Right? Think about the most basic skills. Like, think about talking.
Like, you don’t all of a sudden one day just open your mouth. Start having full sentences with, like, multisyllabic words. Right? It’s it’s such a process, and you trip and you stumble, but you learn from all of those things.
So I think with that metaphor too, like, the other good thing to note is that you start talking because you’re ready to start. You’re motivated. You wanna do the thing. So maybe that applies here too for reaching and stretching and growing your businesses in all these exciting ways.
That may have just been a very random metaphor, but it’s what came to mind.
Yeah. Awesome. Is there anything else I can quickly talk to you about, Katie, before you go do the, day care drop off? Or, otherwise, we could always continue this in Slack as well.
I’m good. I’m gonna keep listening, but I won’t be able to wave anymore. But thank you, Kirsten. That was helpful.
All good. And, Claire, I think your hand was up next. Hello. Hi.
So, obviously, mostly, my question’s, like, so so much in the same zone, but it’s probably a little bit more linked to the, maybe not fear of success, but, like, the whole imposter syndrome side of things.
Mhmm.
So whenever I try to post something or write something, if I’m, like, writing just for an internal thing, working out a process, I can sit down and write. No problem. The moment I’m like, okay. Let’s come up with a LinkedIn post, my brain starts going, you know nothing.
Everyone else already knows this. It’s very obvious. It’s out there. You learned this by listening to someone else.
Why wouldn’t they listen to someone else? Why listen to you?
And I get myself into this, like, whirlwind. Even when I answer, like, things on calls, I’m like, they’re gonna know. They’re gonna know mid talk, and then I start stumbling.
If it doesn’t happen, I know I could be really great. But if, like, that anxiety kicks up, it just makes me ramble.
Yeah.
So I don’t know how to deal with that.
Do you have any tips?
Yeah. Sure. And, also, I don’t know if you noticed, but Andrew was definitely nodding there. So I just wanted to highlight that I feel like everything everyone shared so far is an experience that most people in the room have also had. So just know, one, it’s very normal.
Two, you’re in good company. And three, it’s not a sign that you’re not doing the right work and doing the right thing. Right? We all have those moments where we worry that what we have to share or what to say is not good enough, not new enough, not interesting enough, not valuable enough.
But I think we also all have those moments where we manage to wow a a client just by saying something that we think is quite middle of the road. And they’re like, I never knew this. And they’re like, look at me with my expertise.
So, I mean, obviously, that’s, something that can really help with that, but that’s not something that’s in your control. Right? So let’s not focus on that. We can’t control other people’s reactions. We can only control our actions and to some extent our feelings about those.
So I’m just wondering when you feel this imposter syndrome hit, is it always when you are sharing your own knowledge or your own skill set? Is it is it confined to that, or is it more broad?
Yeah. I think so.
Because it’s in my mind, it’s not my own knowledge. It’s, like, knowledge learned. Do you know what I mean? Like, I’ve acquired this knowledge from lots of other experts, lots of other people. It’s technically theirs. I’ve just learned it.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Sure. Which is the case, I think, for all of us in this room. Right? We haven’t all just spoken up one day and discovered the craft of copywriting on our own.
I think it’s important to remember that, yes, you know, everyone learns their expertise and their craft from somewhere. Right? It’s how education systems work. For example, you get a degree to be a doctor, like, you know, that’s a maybe an example that’s quite helpful to think about.
I think what’s important to remember is that you are going to always bring your own USP and your own uniqueness to the table. Right? There’s gonna be something about the way that you share that information that’s gonna resonate with the right people. There’s gonna be something about, you know, your experience of utilizing that information or using that skill that’s gonna be really appealing to the right people.
So I think it’s again of thinking about your niche, right, and who it is you’re actually speaking to, and how what you have to share is actually hyper relevant for them. Because I think if any of us broaden out, you know, the kind of content that we would share to a white audience, it’s going to be compelling for a whole group of people, right? We have to go narrow, think narrow, and think about how to actually, you know, resonate with that person. I think another thing that can help too in those moments of imposter syndrome, especially when you’re in the middle of a a call or a conversation with a prospect or a client, is just to remember that what you’re having is actually a conversation. Right? It’s a back and forth. So it’s not a show and tell necessarily.
You know, if you can just bring it back down to that human level, that can often relieve some of that anxiety of you feeling like you’re on show, of you feeling like you’re up on a stage of some sort. Because if you just think, hey, I’m just having a chat with Claire. Like, we’re just talking about this. They’ve asked a great question.
I know the answer. Here it is. That flow can actually help bring those levels of anxiety down so that you feel less watched and just more present in the moment. Because I think something that you also, shared when you were talking about that is that it’s almost like there’s this version of Claire that hovers above you and, like, watches and is aware of what you’re doing and is possibly judging or worrying for you.
Is that is that sort of the case?
Yeah. It’s like, oh, look. Now you’re rambling. Of course you are.
Yes. Yeah. Okay. So I think it would be very helpful if if we could find ways to stop that sort of dissociation happening and and having so much of your brain up there watching, judging what you’re doing because of course that’s taking you out of the present moment.
And of course would be impacting your ability to actually you know, show up confidently. You know, it would be imagine if there was an actual person behind you saying those things. Like, that would be so distracting. So it’s the same kind of concept.
So I think it might actually be good to work with anything that brings you into the present moment. So really focusing, on the person you’re speaking to, maybe even grounding yourself with some really subtle exercises. So, do you normally meet in person or on Zoom with your clients or prospects? On Zoom.
Awesome. So a really good grounding exercise because, obviously, on Zoom, no one can see your feet unless you have a very strange camera setup that I’ve not seen before.
Even just scrunching your toes into whatever floor you have underneath your desk and just noticing the sensation, noticing what it feels like, that’s a really good way just to bring you back into your body, so that you have less of those sort of out of body floating above or behind the shoulder kind of, moments. So even something as simple as that, I would love for you to try that and then report back in Slack and just let me know if something that simple can actually help bring you back into the present, into the conversation, and out of that nasty imposter syndrome.
Oh, well, that’s super helpful. Thank you.
My pleasure. Todd, I think I might have seen your hand before unless I also imagine that.
Well, first off, this is great. Great workshop.
I’ll be honest. The last couple of days for me, I’ve had, anxiety, and it’s actually coming to a group and talking about it about it. For me, it’s like, Andrew and I actually have a call scheduled for tomorrow. And for me, it’s the CRO side of it.
Like, am I making the right decision if I’m gonna go with the CRO side of it? I talked a little bit to Tina about it. I’ll be quite honest. I don’t have an issue with process.
I’ve got a nail down, dialed in process. I know that when it runs, it runs extremely well.
I’m closing out a project right now, and the process is so dialed. I’m like, I don’t even wanna go and do it because it’s gonna be easy. And it’s one of those things. I don’t have that, but I have the anxiety side of it, and it’s great to have the conversation about, like, okay. Is this gonna be the right thing?
Mhmm.
And, you know, I’ve got other client work in the background. But you made me think of something that’s kind of important, and I will impart this if I can.
Had a client in the past, and they are Canadian special forces. So they’ve shared conversations where they’ve if not to get too deep into it, where they’ve actually had their superiors over somebody they just killed in a war, or they’ve been on a spot in the world where their only contact the rest of the world is when a satellite passes over their head. And it goes back to the stoics. And one of the things that when you’re talking about self trust and everything, you just made me think of something, and I’m like, excuse my language, but I’m like, shit.
I forgot all about that. And it’s called the only thing you can control is your controllables. That’s it. That’s the only thing you can control is what you can control.
And for me, what I’m thinking a little bit more of is doing anything I can control in the day, you know, not tomorrow or what happened yesterday, but today, is just showing up and showing up and doing what you can in that day. And it might not be the win you want or the huge success you want, but just showing up in that day and just doing what you can in that day, that’s a controllable that you can control. That I don’t know. For me, I think those stack up, And I think the more they stack up, the less the other days can kinda stack, and you actually are standing over it more than it standing over you.
So that was just my comment. It just made me remember, like, control your controllables. And that’s that’s a tough thing to do for me, especially in the last couple of days. Because it’s like, oh, okay.
Where is this going? What am I gonna do? What is this going to look like? You know?
And and all these things. So that’s all. Just wanted to impart that. That’s just it’s a very important thing to do.
It’s just control your controllables. That’s it. It’s all you can do. Right?
So Hundred percent.
Thanks so much for sharing that, Todd. That’s so timely. And, yes, And like you say, just showing up every day and doing the thing, I think, can also help when things feel overwhelming. Right?
It’s like we’re not trying to plan and execute every single thing for the business that you wanna have two years from now. It’s about what little things can actually do today that day after day can add up. So I think if, yeah, looking if looking and thinking too broad is something that causes anxiety, then bringing it back into that. And, again, yeah, what you can control, so helpful.
So thanks for sharing. That’s awesome.
Anyone else have any questions, concerns?
Hello?
All good? Okay.
So I’m never sure how long to wait in case someone’s just been shy, but I feel like we might be all questioned out for this morning.
We’re all just anxious.
I know. You’re like, oh god. This workshop was, like, my avoidant part of my day. Now I have to actually go and do some work.
What is this? Well but thank you so much for showing up this morning. Thank you so much for sharing so openly and honestly. I think the more honest that we can all be about these feelings and doubts that we have, you know, the more we just feel like, oh, we’re in the right room and we’re doing the right things.
Right? Everyone here is in the right place doing the right things. And because you have those doubts, you know, it it doesn’t mean anything about your qualifications, or where you’re headed with your business whatsoever. It’s all part of being human, unfortunately.
So please feel free to reach out and continue any of these conversations in Slack. I would love that, or have a chat with Zoe about Zoe with Joe, sorry, about, doing a workshop on self doubt, and see where that might be able to fit in because it sounds like that might be a helpful one. Sorry. Self trust. Sorry. Sorry. My baby was awake every hour last night, so she’s functioning on bare minimum.
But, yes, I will see you all in Slack, and I’ll see you again on Zoom next month.
Bye, everyone.
Resting Rich Face
Resting Rich Face
Transcript
Hello. Hello, all. These smiling faces. Hello.
Thanks for your patience.
Free my cold.
But I’m stoked to share this today.
Yeah. Today’s training is called resting rich face, which I love, by the way.
Yeah. So I wanted to talk about this because it’s, it’s such an important thing how you show up on camera, which I know everybody, like, knows.
But in practice, it’s so different. So, I’ve been on calls with people where I’ve just wanted to coach them the whole way through. And I’m sure people have been on calls with me where they’re just like, Joe, what? But I actually don’t think that’s true. I think I actually am pretty okay at resting rich face and not coming off like, like, I’m cold.
So I wanted to I wanna share this note. This is a bit of a soft skill, right, which it has a worksheet for it because there are some parts that I think can be controlled where you can, like, go check check. I’ve done that check.
But overall, the objective now everybody got the worksheet, I assume. So I will share my screen right away. But, if you’ve got it, bring it up. If you’ve got it printed, get your pen out.
Jessica, I know you’re doing your walking, so put the paper against the treadmill screen and write on it.
And I do actually wanna do a little bit if it makes sense to, I wanna do a little bit of, like, skill drill stuff where we actually try on our resting rich face, and get some critiques on it, or some thumbs up. I’m like, well done. You’re super rich, and you don’t need anything from me. So that’s the idea.
Right? The idea is although nobody likes to talk about it, nobody likes to admit that this is the reality. The reality is people wanna do business with people that seem out of their league. They just do.
So anybody who’s trying to, hire you wants to believe you’re, like, a notch above what they can afford. Not out of range entirely, but but it’s like I don’t know if you’ve seen the Instagrams.
I’m on Instagram a lot now because Nicole is forcing me to, like, care about this stuff now.
There’s this, like a lot of people who are on there talking about style and how you look. And one has a really good piece of advice, which is always dress just a notch better than you’re expected to dress for the thing. Just a little just one little notch better. And I think, like, this is the kind of stuff that, that, like, nobody likes to talk about that we can but actually will one hundred percent help you get more clients to go, like, I really wanna hire him or, like, how do I like that person so much? And that’s what we wanna get. Right? That and it’s completely achievable.
One is resting rich face is you showing up on camera, always on camera, always very aware of what your background looks like, what your lighting is, where your camera is, and starting with a certain emotion.
So what I have found to be very useful and I was gonna go through and find some old calls to share with you, but I’ve got I’m I’m teaching this because I think it’s been really critical for me being able to charge a lot more than people seem to believe is, like, a comfortable amount to charge. Like, to be able to save fifty thousand dollars for a thing or more than that is, like, people have a hard time believing that it can be that easy. And I do think it comes down to, well, how are you presenting yourself on camera?
So we need to not just present ourselves a certain way, but also control the conversation in a certain way. And by that, I mean, in ten x f c, I have one thing that a few of you I know have been through ten x f c. And there’s, like, the Jennifer Lawrence, oh, hells no moment when you go into a call, and the idea going into a call is, oh, hells no. You can’t. This isn’t gonna work. So you go in auditioning them.
That alone, if you just walked forward in life from this point on and said, I auditioned them, Copy School Pro paid for itself. It that’s that alone, I I’m not it sounds dramatic.
You are auditioning them. When you think of it that way, when you go into it with that attitude, it’s not it’s bitchy attitude. It’s Richie attitude. You’re just going into it like, I don’t need this work.
I wanna like you, and then I wanna help you because I like you, and we can partner on this stuff together. But you’re not going into it acting like, I hope this works out for both of us. So you do think that. And, of course, you want the work, hopefully.
Let me just wanna charge more for it and make sure that they’re, like, so ready to work with you. They’re so excited to give you the money for this work, which can absolutely happen if you control the way you present yourself along with all of the other stuff we’re talking about. Right? So I wanna share my screen, and I apologize for the sneezing and coughing that are bound to happen any moment now.
I’m, like, holding them back right now and hoping to just push through.
Okay. Let me share my screen, and we’re gonna talk about how this works. Alright.
This is the part that I wanna share with you most. You already know I think everybody already knows. If you’re not, like, looking at the camera, you’re not doing right in the call. If your background is crap, you’re not doing right in the call.
If your lighting is crap, come on. We’re all better than that. We know better than that. Right?
Then come the other things, like, should you be sitting or standing? Now I like to teach that you should be standing. It’s more engaged. You’re really up and you’re in it. You can lean in.
However, there’s a certain sort of power move to sitting. So I want you to make an intentional choice. So not intentionally sit. I’m being intentional in my sitting, but sit intentionally or stand intentionally.
And we can talk a bit about that. You’ll know right now. You should know right out of the gate which one feels better for you, and it’s not the one that’s more comfortable, by the way. Sitting is gonna be more comfortable. It just that’s what our chairs do.
But it’s a question of what and we’re talking about this in the intensive as well. What who are you as the brand sitting in front of them?
This thought leader where we’re talking about the leader side of it. You as a thought leader in x, does that thought leader sit or stand?
You already know this. You already know what you should be doing. You know who you see best, who you respond best to when they’re sitting versus when they’re standing, and it’s not always the same for everybody. So which one is it for you? Stand, if you don’t know if it should be sit or stand, I’d say stand is a really good starting point. Default to the thing where you’re up and engaged because sitting invites the leaning back, which shouldn’t happen out of the gate.
And that brings us to this part. And we’ll talk more about these other parts here at the top. But this is, I think, an important distinction that I’ve learned for myself. And when I have analyzed tonight, I have analyzed so many sales calls over the years watching the best salespeople.
And salespeople where I was like, really? This is what you’re gonna do for a living?
I’ve watched them both. And the ones that do the best work or that are the most where by the end of it, you’re like, holy shit. I wanna work for that person. Like, I I don’t even wanna be in business. Like, I watched one salesperson one time do this, what we’re gonna talk about so masterfully.
I was like, I and she was selling enterprise into high, like, high big engineering teams, and she was so good that I was, like, so excited for her and everybody who was signing up for her stuff. So I was like, you just get to be around this incredible salesperson. And that’s exactly what we are here. Right?
We’re we’re salespeople in these calls. So what she did is she would open the call as we all should being very likable. You’re smiling out of the gate. You’re looking at the camera.
Go into hide self mode if you must, if you find yourself looking at yourself a lot, like, to make sure you’re okay. Like, first check check that you’re okay before you let them in the room, and then go hide self view so that you can really look at the camera and get a sense. Give them the sense that you’re looking right at them, that they have your complete attention. Have a notepad handy as always.
Right? We’re not gonna get into that, but you don’t wanna be typing the whole way. Make sure you’re recording, etcetera, etcetera. But the point is you wanna be likable out of the gate.
That’s when you smile. If you’re wondering and this is gonna sound really stupid like, Joe, why are you teaching us this? Trust me. Trust me on this today. While the cold meds are making me a little wonky, I’m not gonna lie. I’m feeling a little bit off.
But it’s often a good way, I think.
Slightly slightly like drinking.
So smile out of the gate. Not not a big dumb grin, for lack of a better word, but smiling.
Right? So we’re smiling. We’re happy. We’re smiling with our eyes. We’re smiling with our mouths.
We’re likable. We’re friendly. We’re chatting in a friendly quick way. But we are also, managing and owning this conversation.
You’re smiling like the richest person in the room smiles. Not that you are, but that’s what’s going on in your head, and it makes you likable. You’re nothing’s wrong in your life. Everything’s good in your life.
You’re smiling. Things are good. You’re leaning in. You’re flattering. I love your business. I love what you do at Canva.
I love what you do at TELUS. Oh my gosh. I love what you do at Johnson and Johnson.
I love x y z. Just leaning in and flattering. And this is leaning directly in. Like, my elbows are on the desk.
I’m leaning in, and I’m looking at you and smiling, and it’s all good. Not crazy eyes. Watch your crazy eyes. Don’t be crazy eyes, but smiling.
We’re having a good time. This is when you’re starting the call. This doesn’t last for that long. You’re just setting a tone.
This is like a minute on your triage call where we’re, like, a fifteen minute call, max a minute of this part. And then the middle column here, the disqualification, this is when we start to back away. Your body backs away a little bit. And by the time you are ready to actually hear real stuff from them, you are leaning back.
And as we all know, that requires them that they lean in. They’re looking to get the same level of engagement that they got from you out of the gate. This sounds like dumb playing because it freaking is. We’re copywriters.
We know that a lot of persuasion for people comes down to things that feel like a game, and you can pretend it’s not a game. You can pretend that that’s not how people do it, or you can do it, but, like, in a chill, masterful way. So not like leaning in, flattering. Did I say a flattering thing?
Now I lean back. How I probe? Then I show confusion.
But rather just, like, use your body with your questions to help reflect the attitude of a person who is genuinely curious, which is what everybody wants out of their copywriter, someone who is genuinely curious, who wants to work together but isn’t going to compromise, and who asks hard questions. So the disqualification part is where most people talk about qualifying them. Do you qualify? We wanna go into it disqualifying them, and that starts with an audition.
Now this is triage. This isn’t a sixty minute call. This is the call where you’re just trying to set a tone. Should we work together or not?
And you’re going in thinking we’re not gonna work together, but I like you. We’re gonna figure this out. We’re gonna, like I wanna spend fifteen minutes with you. If it’s nothing else, I at least get to know another person, and that’s cool.
That’s your attitude. You don’t say those words. It’s just your attitude. So then we disqualify them.
That is when we are auditioning them. Now what do I mean by auditioning?
All sorts of things. You will know it when you see it. You will know it when you do it. It is the part where you are basically asking them to share with you why they’re so awesome, and not, like, why is their business so awesome necessarily.
Like, nothing you can find online, like, with a Google search or just just by knowing their brand. But, like, get them to share with you why you, as a freelancer, would wanna spend your time working with them. And those are really simple questions. Right?
We’re we’re already asking these questions. Where do you wanna be? Where are you now? Okay.
This is a gap of you wanna have ten thousand people on your list. You have five thousand people on your list. That’s a gap of five thousand. What’s causing the gap?
This is where you’re curious. You’re asking questions. Auditioning is still we’re not leaning back yet. We’re still, like, asking questions.
Okay. That’s a gap of blah blah blah. What’s causing the gap? Okay. How have you tried solving that?
You’re taking notes. You’re curious.
Then they’re starting to answer in ways that are concerning. And we all know that when they’re answering questions in this triage call, they also have their backs up a little bit. Right? So they’re not gonna give you everything, and you know that going into it.
If you don’t know that, if you haven’t experienced it, that’s the reality. That’s what you will be seeing if you haven’t seen it yet. I’m sure we’ve all seen that. So they’ve got their backs up a bit.
They’re also a little bit of a wall, and they’re going to give you half truths for things. They’re not gonna tell you everything. You get to know that that’s not true, and you get to ask them then probing questions. And this is the part where you start to turn into, the rich consultant who doesn’t need this job.
So I’m gonna need the my lead here to get real with me. So you’re telling me you’re at five thousand leads right now. You wanna get to ten thousand. These five thousand leads came in in the last three years.
And when did you wanna get to these these other five thousand leads in the next three months?
Can you walk me through, like, your thinking there? That’s where you’re allowed to actually dig in and start leaning back a bit. Like, convince me now that you’re not on your mind that, like, you have these big growth objectives, but you actually have, like, this the good sense to do the work well.
And this is where you start to show this confused curiosity. Like, wait. Okay. There must be something I’m not understanding.
So please help me understand.
You wanna double your list that took three years. Am I hearing just I just wanna make I wanna make sure. You wanna double your list that took three years in the next three months.
What where walk me through what’s actually happening here. Like, walk me through where this is coming from. I’d really love to know. You’re curious, but you’re confused.
They’re now going like, oh, shit. I’m about to be found out for not really knowing everything under the sun. Maybe I’m taking this call because someone on my team was supposed to take the call, and they’re sick today. But I still wanted to take the call because I still wanna do this or whatever it is.
I feel ill prepared to answer these questions. Oh my gosh. Can we just, like, figure out if we can even work together and now blah blah blah blah. So we don’t wanna make them feel uncomfortable, but we need to recognize that if all you do is smile and go, oh my gosh.
That’s genius. That’s perfect. That’s amazing. I love that. We can still do that. That’s so good but a good idea.
That sounds great. And with your brand, there’s no way this won’t work. If you keep doing all that kind of stuff the whole way through, that’s I have not seen that work well. What I’ve seen work well is like below the gate, leaning in, flattering, then you switch to auditioning them, ask them the questions that you need answered, better understand how they work with freelancers, how they value the specialization that you have.
As they say things that are confusing, lean back a little at a time, still making notes.
Your confused curiosity shouldn’t be like you furrowing your brow your whole time going like, what? Like, it’s not that. It’s not far over on the other side like, that sounds dumb. But rather at that balancing point where you’re like, okay. I don’t I’m not quite getting this. It’s not a hundred percent clear to me.
Please, like, explain this part to me as if it’s my first day on the job because I really, really wanna understand what’s happening for your business and how I can help you. And when you do that, some people may not like it. I don’t know who they are. Because when I do that, people tend to lean in and share them with you.
Like, oh, okay. Cool. Let me share this with you, but we only have fifteen minutes, don’t we? Yeah.
We do. So can you give me, like, the Coles notes version of that? And then they do. And that’s that is what I have seen.
That is what I’ve seen over thirteen years of doing this stuff out of in house.
And so that’s something that I would recommend for you is this disqualification area is really the part where if you think of yourself as, like, you’re leaning in, you’re at, like, a forty five degree angle. That’s too much leaning in, by the way. Then you go up to to ninety degrees, and then you go back to a hundred and thirty five, a hundred and twenty five, probably closer. But that’s what you wanna do is slowly lean back and then come around to the thing that they want.
They liked you out of the gate. Likable is huge. They have told you real things and you’ve asked them. You’ve probed not as, like, a curious little butterfly, but as, like, a curious consultant who just wants to know, like, because can I help you or can’t I? And if I don’t understand, then I can’t help you.
Toward the point where now you’re like, got it. Okay. So I see what you’re looking for now. Thank you for explaining that to me.
Here’s what I know we only got fifteen minutes. We got, like, four minutes left in this. So here’s what I would say. This is when you start leaning in again.
You’re smiling a bit more. You’re not like not like you were out of the gate, but you’re smiling. Now you guys are on the same page. Right?
This could work really well. I think that I could help you out with this, but only if and then you go back through the things that they said. Only if that thing that you said at that point is actually true. So only if you are really going to put a hundred thousand dollars into Facebook ads to grow your list by five thousand given that you’ve spent no money.
So can we say that that’s for sure that you’re gonna put that money? That’s already set up. Perfect. So I could see it as working then.
I could see being able to help you get there if that’s true. And, frankly, I’d really love to do this with you. As I mentioned, I love Johnson and Johnson, whatever that thing is. I’m I have your pills on my desk right now.
I don’t know what the thing is. Right? But you’re you’re getting back into, like, this would be cool. I do this all the time.
Do it for clients like x y z.
It starts at ten grand. How does that sit with your budget?
Cool.
Great. And then I think we should do this. So but we won’t know until we dig deeper in. So, the next step is a longer call, and then you go into the part that takes them over toward that, the next step, which is that sixty minute call that we talk about in freelancing school, and that we can talk about more here if you want to.
But that is the long and the short of it, where you wanna go through and come up with your own auditioning questions. What are the things that you often find yourself asking? What do you need to know from leads when you’re first talking to them during this triage call? And then we can talk more about how resting rich face works, but it really does come down less to less to, like, just do Zoom background stuff.
That’s one thing. And more to the attitude that you bring and the mood that that attitude helps to create.
Remember that people like likable, and they want that likable person that they liked out of the gate to like them back. So we can use that to have more productive calls and use some body language to go back and then come back together, and they feel a connection.
That isn’t true if you’re just always sitting there stoically looking, smiling, and doing things that just don’t feel engaging. So does that all make sense?
Yeah?
Questions?
No?
No?
Do you not say, like, anything about your process in that initial discussion?
So this is just, that would be in the part where we’re like, this would only work if, if that’s true. Cool. And if that’s true, great. Here’s how I get things done.
This is why I think it would work well for your business just based on this conversation we’ve had so far. Do you agree? How does that sound? I’m always getting the buy in from them as you’re going through.
But the point here is, yeah, you do have fifteen minutes. We’re focusing less on the script and more on intentionally doing the right things to get the right emotional reaction as you go. Mhmm. Cool?
Cool.
Oh, wait. I have a question.
Naomi?
Is the goal to find something problematic?
I feel like a lot of times I’m working with very skilled marketers, sometimes people who I’ve worked with in the past.
So, like, is what if there’s nothing like, is the goal to find something problematic in their proposal or their presentation?
And if so, what what if there’s nothing you can sort of pick apart?
No. The goal isn’t to, like, look for problems. The reality is that there usually is a problem. Or and it’s not even a problem. It’s like, help me understand what’s going on there.
And that’s, like, the curiosity that copywriters bring to the table. I’ve never I can’t remember ever having been in a triage or even a sales call where I was perfectly satisfied with what the client or lead was saying to me. It’s usually like I don’t know how that works. And you’re like, junior more junior freelancers, like, keep that to themselves, right, and go like, oh, okay. That’s really interesting. And then they’re like, I have no idea how that works, or is that even the right way to do it? Instead of saying, like, why can I ask you, like, why you’re taking that approach?
And if you do that while looking at them, you’ve already set up that you’re likable. They booked the call with you. If you can ask those questions with confused curiosity so there’s sometimes you’re gonna dial up the confusion, and sometimes you’re gonna dial up the curiosity.
And that’s really up to you. If you’re in a call and everything they say is, like, hunky dory, that’s amazing.
That’s cool. It’s just so rare, and it might require that you be more challenging.
Because if if their idea is perfect I I’m a smart marketer. I don’t I don’t have perfect ideas, and I can always benefit from a consultant coming in and saying, like, that’s cool. I like what you’re saying. What I’m confused about is this part. Can you help me understand that part? And then I’m like, oh, yeah. For sure.
Versus this all sounds perfect.
No notes, which is just so rare. Right? You’re allowed to have notes. Does that make sense, Naomi?
It makes sense. I’m just thinking through my client base, and a lot of the things feel very standard. Like, we’re doing a webinar and we need emails and LinkedIn ads, or we need a new website because we’re going for a funding round. Not that there’s no questions, just it feels like, okay. This is pretty typical.
This feels a little bit normal. So I’m trying to think of, like like, sure. I wanna know the context, and I wanna know who’s involved and what are the goals, but it doesn’t seem like it doesn’t make there there aren’t so many things that don’t make sense to me so much.
That’s fair. I mean, I would say put on your consulting hat instead of and maybe that’s just a difference in how you approach people, and that can be really valuable or depends on the kinds of projects that you’re getting.
I I know that there’s a lot of different ways people can go about doing things. I usually have some level of assumption. If someone says I want to have a million dollar launch, I wanna know a lot about that. What was your last launch? If the last launch was a hundred thousand, we got a problem. If the last launch was nine hundred thousand, we should probably shoot for higher than a million this time. Right?
So there’s you so it depends. It all depends. But what I wanna make sure I’m doing is getting in bed with people who are genuinely challenging the way things are so that I think this is maybe part of it. I’m only working with people who have really great ideas, and they’re open to better ways of doing them. Does that make sense?
Yeah. No. I like the idea. I just think that think it’ll take a little bit of thinking to figure out where those questions are, Because a lot of times with b two b, the numbers are not as like, the quality of the leads is a lot more important than the actual conversion rate.
And so sometime oh, I think a lot of times, the actual growth rates are not the top top priority, especially if it’s a little bit more top of funnel is what I found. So, a lot of those, like, numbered questions, I don’t find resonate as much. But I definitely think that there are probing questions. I’ll just have to figure out what those are.
Yeah. And, honestly, like, I have worksheets there to, like, fill in questions, like, some auditioning questions, which is really good if you’re specializing. Right? So I’m not sure, Naomi, that you’ve landed on that specialization yet. And if you have, if it’s top of funnel, then you just, like, identify what some of those questions are out of the gate. Most marketers, especially the kinds of marketers that you talk about working with, Naomi, are very interested in getting results for everything. I don’t especially in this economy and the reality of what’s going on right now.
Nobody is investing in things that they can’t measure because you’ve got to report to shareholders, to your board, to everybody.
And they need to know that even if it’s two thousand dollars spent on a freelancer, was it two thousand dollars well spent? So that’s where some of those numbers questions can come in. But it doesn’t even come down to numbers necessarily. Right? It’s really just a matter of, do you feel like you’re getting your work you’re gonna work with a client who, you can talk with is what it maybe comes down to a bit more. Yeah.
I I think it’s it’s also that there’s more of a shift from PPC to more of an ABM approach, more content marketing. And so it’s not that it’s not measurable. They’re still looking at the pipeline. They still think how many opportunities come in, but there are so many touch points that that kind of attribution tracking is not really in place for series b, series c startup. They don’t necessarily have the data infrastructure to be able to say exactly how things got from point a to point b.
So it’s Awesome.
Like, they’re definitely metrics to track, but it’s not always easy easy to figure out which ones.
Yeah. Totally.
Okay. Very cool.
What I would love to do now I know Jessica, Caroline, Stacy, you are off camera.
But I wanna role play. I wanna give out some resting rich face, action. So does anybody we need someone to be a client and someone to be the freelancer, And it’s fun. There’s this is a small group of us. A resting pot noodle face. What?
What is pot noodle? What the pot noodle?
I don’t know. It just, like that’s why I eat when I’m broke, so it kinda made sense.
Pot noodle. That’s hilarious.
Does anybody wanna give it a shot? Just the part where you’re working through the the likability of the lean in versus lean back.
Who wants to give it a shot?
I’m happy to play either role.
Okay. Anybody else wanna play?
I can be a client.
Okay. Naomi is client. Andrew is freelancer. Naomi is from what business?
Oh, I don’t know. I’ll say I’ll say monday dot com.
I would say monday dot com.
Okay. Naomi is from monday dot com, and she is looking for somebody to work on Andrew, what’s your what would you what would she be calling you for?
We’re gonna redo the home page. Okay. Because that’s everyone’s favorite.
Just the home page. No one don’t wanna do that. Naomi, you gotta make up some goals on the fly, stuff like that. Have the call, make it go. We are practicing, and it’s supposed to be fun while we’re at it.
Practicing everything that we just walked through. So opening the call.
This qualification and casual conversion.
Are we ready? Andrew, sorry.
So am I are we doing all of them, or we’re just starting with the opening?
You can just start just to, like, play around with the open through to beginning disqualification to get to a place of, showing confused curiosity.
Okay.
Paying attention to your face, looking in the camera, all of the stuff. Cool?
Okay. Yep.
Alright. Well done, you two.
And you’re actually kind of just winging it.
But Yeah.
Can I can I ask one follow-up question? Yeah. What’s your take on, like, small talk?
I so one of the things that I find useful, and I heard this from somebody at some point, is to say out of the gate, hey. I’ve got it in my calendar that we’ve got fifteen minutes to talk today. Is that right? Is that what you’ve got too? Cool. That’s not a lot of time. Do you just wanna jump in?
That is really good for that. Cool.
Alright. Cool.
Awesome. Alright. Alright. Ring ring. Zoom call starts.
Alright. Hey, Naomi. Can you hear me okay?
Yeah. How are you?
I’m good. I’m good. How are you? Yeah.
Doing well. Thank god.
Good. Glad to hear. Glad we could find some time to talk.
I have on our calendar that we just have about fifteen minutes here. Is that, is that what you have?
Yeah.
Okay. Cool. So let’s, let’s go ahead and just dive in because we have a lot to talk about and not a whole lot of time.
So, basically, the purpose of this call is for us to just chat and see if we have a suitable enough fit between us to warrant a second call where we could dive in deeper to talk about what a project might look like. Does that sound good for you?
Yeah.
Okay. Awesome. So, first question, how did you hear about me?
A friend recommended recommended you.
Must have seen LinkedIn or worked with you.
And yeah. So I figured I’d reach out.
Oh, great. Brian. Right? It was was it Brian who who?
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
Okay.
Brian’s guy. Awesome. Great. Yeah. Love Brian. Smart guy.
Awesome. So I have here that you said you were looking for someone to help overhaul your, homepage for Monday dot com. Could you tell me a little bit about what’s driving that? Like, what was going on in the business that made you say, okay. We need to start reaching out to people to find someone to overhaul our landing page.
Yeah. For sure. So we are moving towards more of an enterprise market.
Monday dot com is very different from Asana or Trello. It’s much more robust.
You can create a lot of your own apps and a lot of your own workflows, and so we really wanna emphasize that. We don’t think we’re doing a good enough job, And we want typically, we attack teams, and then we expand from there. And we want to push our enterprise efforts even further.
And we also have a different model now. We have different solutions where before we just had the general solution. Now we have solution for sales, a solution for marketing. We’re opening up a solution for HR.
And we feel like our current vision doesn’t really our our current home page doesn’t really encapsulate all of those new elements.
Okay.
So it sounds like there’s a lot going on product wise, and maybe some changes in terms of positioning, that kind of thing, new products, things like that.
I’m curious why you’ve decided to focus on the home page, for this update. Could you share a little bit of with me about why you think the home page is the focus here?
Well, we’re also working on the individual product pages, but we feel like Monday as a brand, the the homepage is really our digital storefront, and it’s people still think of us as a project management tool. And we’re hoping that the home page, when people land there, can give them a clearer image of who we are and what our value proposition is because that’s really our central component. Like, we have a huge acquisition team that’s working on different ads. We can add home teams, but the home page is sort of the central location. So we feel that if we shift the home page, then it’ll be clearer for people, to understand that new brand identity.
Okay.
I appreciate you sharing that.
Alright. Let’s let’s come back to that. I’m I’m a little bit curious. So, you know, with all of these changes that are happening, have has your team been able to document your updated positioning and messaging for these new products? So, you know, say, if we were to work together, if you’re gonna work with someone like me, what are you gonna have in place to help them understand exactly what I don’t know where I’ll do it. I don’t know where we’re coming with this.
I was trying to get into it, Andrew.
I I was just trying to, I You cut yourself short.
You’re doing great. You’re doing great.
It’s just a I know how to use this product.
I just didn’t know where we were gonna No.
No. I was just gonna watch you as long as I could. It’s like reality TV that I’ve just I’ve always wanted to see.
And I was trying to manufacture I was trying to manufacture a little bit of confused curiosity, but, no.
I appreciate it. Well done, Andrew. Well done, Naomi.
Naomi. Thank you.
Yes. Great stuff.
Notes. Well intentioned, loving notes for Andrew.
How did the lean in versus lean back go?
Come on. I thought he looked genuinely confused, curious. It was I was very sold. Yeah. Confused face was great. It was confused curiosity.
Clearly, you were paying attention.
I didn’t find it was distinct enough from the first face.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. Starting face just be a little smiley.
And I think I think naturally, I am smiley. I think that I default to the I I tend to be pretty friendly on the Yeah. Those opening calls. So that part comes naturally.
And I I think the rest kinda does too. I think it’s it’s but it I definitely know what you’re talking about about, like, when you hear something and you just kinda nod along, and you’re like, okay. Sure. And that’s over time, I’ve definitely gotten better at that at being a little bit more like, alright.
Hold up. Yeah.
That again.
So yeah. And, also, I appreciate your, tip on how to start how to how to politely skip small talk. Although, I don’t I don’t mind a little bit of small talk. I don’t I’m not above talking about the weather. So you know?
No. That’s cool. Feel free, yeah, to do that. What if you tilted your camera down a bit more? Can you try that?
Let’s see.
Just so we can see you lean back more.
That way if you lean back versus lean in now lean in, and now lean back. Leaning in?
Yeah.
Back. Yeah.
I I don’t know how everybody else feels about that, but to me, it feels more if I’m paying attention to you and I see you lean back, that’s a different feel versus leaning forward.
I would play with it. Smiling in. Yeah. Smile in. Question back. Use it back.
And in.
I love it.
I I love this stuff.
Like, I’m all about like, whenever you talk about, like, the you know, it’s a game. It’s I’m like, I’m all for it. I I love that part. I love Totally.
Right?
That’s awesome.
Cool. Otherwise, you weren’t taking notes during. Do you typically not take notes during? I type. Oh, you do type. Okay.
I type, and I actually tend to type a lot.
I don’t know how bad the sound is. Like, I don’t know if I’m you know?
Hopefully, it’s not too bad. Not at all. Sweet. I have a good mic here. Here.
So Okay.
That’s great. Yeah. Okay.
That helps. But, yeah, I take a lot of notes.
Cool. I have a question.
Yeah.
So if a company like I think they have, like, two thousand employees now.
I I’m wondering what it makes like, if they say, okay. We’re gonna redo the home page. This might be, like, a directive from the CEO saying, like, we have to redo the home page, and there might be less wiggle room about the actual project that needs to take place versus, like, their idea of how the messaging is going to happen or, like, details about the project.
Like, do you still think it makes sense to, like, quest at that point, like, for that kind of company, would it still make sense to question the actual, like, should we do this project, or, like, factors around the project itself?
So when I say, like, question it, I’m not necessarily saying get them to change their idea. Is that what you’re saying, Naomi?
Well, like, I I feel like there’s, yeah, like, there’s two different kinds of questions. Like, like, to ask, like, does this make any sense? Like, it may not really be their decision. They might be limited in Yeah.
And that’s cool. You’re a consultant. It like, we’re always leaning more towards consultant the more pro we get. Right? So we’re still doing, but you’ve gone through all of the early work of accepting.
And and now you’re at a place where you’re like, hang on.
I need to better understand this. So in you saying, hang on. I need to better understand this. You are just consulting with them in that moment.
And even if the person that you’re talking to is like, oh, I have I have no idea. I can’t change that. I don’t do anything with that. That’s not me.
That’s that’s okay. You don’t have to it doesn’t need to resolve in something. What you’re doing is showing that you know what’s up and asking the questions that you need answered in order to say yes or no, where we’re defaulting to no, of course. Right?
Start with no. Get them on board after auditioning them. Get them on board with what it takes to move forward with you. Does that make sense?
It it doesn’t mean you have to say, you think it should be a home page, and I think it should be a landing page. You can say that, but we also understand that they’ve got most people have, like, direction coming from someone else. And, like, the business has decided this, and they’re looking for a copywriter to work on that thing. Andrew, were you gonna add to this?
Yeah. Well, I guess one question for Naomi. I guess, when you’re talking to these people on that initial call, does that person typically have the authority to sign, like, to sign off on the budget and, like, sign the contract, or do they have to usually kick it upstairs to someone else?
No. I’m working with a lot of smaller companies. So, usually, they do have the budget, although some times they’ll have to get approval from the CEO. Okay.
But, typically, now they do. But, like, for a larger company, like, Monday dot com, like, in my mind, it would be, like, the CEO told us we have to redo the home page, so we have to redo the home page. Like, there’s no, like, that that’s just what they were told to do. That’s the end.
That’s the the answer.
Yeah. I gotcha. Okay. I mean, part of why I asked is because I was thinking, like, something I think this I think it’s Allen Weiss, who I learned this from, but, like, he has the the idea that, like, if you’re talking to, like, if you’re talking to someone who doesn’t have the authority to say yes, then, like, anyone who you’re talking to can say no.
Right? Like, someone could if you’re talking to someone who doesn’t have the authority to say yes, they might have the authority to say no. And so to me, that signals, like, maybe a need to bring someone else into the next call who has, like who’s, like, higher up and who, like because you have the lower level people are thinking, okay. We have these tasks to do, and here’s our timeline, and here’s our budget, and we need to check this.
And then sometimes, like, if you bring in someone who, like, hey. On your next call, why don’t we have the CMO join? And then all of a sudden you realize that that stuff that was, like, written in stone isn’t actually written in stone, and the person above them is like, oh, yeah. We can expand this or change this or, you know, do this because that person’s, like, thinking more long term, thinking more about value rather than the the manager who’s trying to, like, check all the boxes and make sure that things happen on time.
So that that was sort of that was part of my thought. And then I guess the other thing is, like, digging into, like, why do you why a home page? And it’s like, oh, because the CEO then it’s like, okay. Well, why does the CEO want that?
And so I think that there’s still, like, an opportunity to keep probing there. But I don’t know if any of that was useful, but, I just thought No.
That’s fair. That’s a good point.
Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, Andrew.
And Stacy added the economic buyer. Totally.
Awesome. Okay. How is everybody feeling about the idea of presenting resting rich face?
Even if it’s just knowing that you should. Like, that’s the starting point. Just know that that’s the more ideal thing.
I think a lot of people naturally have, like in this room have, like, a naturally good personality. But I I just wanna note, like, in that beginning, as you open the call, more energy, more enthusiasm, I have found is always better. I’ve seen smart, smart people lose the lead almost immediately because they just weren’t in it. There wasn’t a sense of energy of let’s connect of being there and having something to offer, I would just keep calling it energy.
So that’s where all the smiling happens, then no smiling. Then we’re, like, really focused on not smiling. We’re listening. We’re thoughtful.
We’re strategic people, and then we come back on board with, like, chill smile. Does that all make sense? The flow? Cool.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
Hello. Hello, all. These smiling faces. Hello.
Thanks for your patience.
Free my cold.
But I’m stoked to share this today.
Yeah. Today’s training is called resting rich face, which I love, by the way.
Yeah. So I wanted to talk about this because it’s, it’s such an important thing how you show up on camera, which I know everybody, like, knows.
But in practice, it’s so different. So, I’ve been on calls with people where I’ve just wanted to coach them the whole way through. And I’m sure people have been on calls with me where they’re just like, Joe, what? But I actually don’t think that’s true. I think I actually am pretty okay at resting rich face and not coming off like, like, I’m cold.
So I wanted to I wanna share this note. This is a bit of a soft skill, right, which it has a worksheet for it because there are some parts that I think can be controlled where you can, like, go check check. I’ve done that check.
But overall, the objective now everybody got the worksheet, I assume. So I will share my screen right away. But, if you’ve got it, bring it up. If you’ve got it printed, get your pen out.
Jessica, I know you’re doing your walking, so put the paper against the treadmill screen and write on it.
And I do actually wanna do a little bit if it makes sense to, I wanna do a little bit of, like, skill drill stuff where we actually try on our resting rich face, and get some critiques on it, or some thumbs up. I’m like, well done. You’re super rich, and you don’t need anything from me. So that’s the idea.
Right? The idea is although nobody likes to talk about it, nobody likes to admit that this is the reality. The reality is people wanna do business with people that seem out of their league. They just do.
So anybody who’s trying to, hire you wants to believe you’re, like, a notch above what they can afford. Not out of range entirely, but but it’s like I don’t know if you’ve seen the Instagrams.
I’m on Instagram a lot now because Nicole is forcing me to, like, care about this stuff now.
There’s this, like a lot of people who are on there talking about style and how you look. And one has a really good piece of advice, which is always dress just a notch better than you’re expected to dress for the thing. Just a little just one little notch better. And I think, like, this is the kind of stuff that, that, like, nobody likes to talk about that we can but actually will one hundred percent help you get more clients to go, like, I really wanna hire him or, like, how do I like that person so much? And that’s what we wanna get. Right? That and it’s completely achievable.
One is resting rich face is you showing up on camera, always on camera, always very aware of what your background looks like, what your lighting is, where your camera is, and starting with a certain emotion.
So what I have found to be very useful and I was gonna go through and find some old calls to share with you, but I’ve got I’m I’m teaching this because I think it’s been really critical for me being able to charge a lot more than people seem to believe is, like, a comfortable amount to charge. Like, to be able to save fifty thousand dollars for a thing or more than that is, like, people have a hard time believing that it can be that easy. And I do think it comes down to, well, how are you presenting yourself on camera?
So we need to not just present ourselves a certain way, but also control the conversation in a certain way. And by that, I mean, in ten x f c, I have one thing that a few of you I know have been through ten x f c. And there’s, like, the Jennifer Lawrence, oh, hells no moment when you go into a call, and the idea going into a call is, oh, hells no. You can’t. This isn’t gonna work. So you go in auditioning them.
That alone, if you just walked forward in life from this point on and said, I auditioned them, Copy School Pro paid for itself. It that’s that alone, I I’m not it sounds dramatic.
You are auditioning them. When you think of it that way, when you go into it with that attitude, it’s not it’s bitchy attitude. It’s Richie attitude. You’re just going into it like, I don’t need this work.
I wanna like you, and then I wanna help you because I like you, and we can partner on this stuff together. But you’re not going into it acting like, I hope this works out for both of us. So you do think that. And, of course, you want the work, hopefully.
Let me just wanna charge more for it and make sure that they’re, like, so ready to work with you. They’re so excited to give you the money for this work, which can absolutely happen if you control the way you present yourself along with all of the other stuff we’re talking about. Right? So I wanna share my screen, and I apologize for the sneezing and coughing that are bound to happen any moment now.
I’m, like, holding them back right now and hoping to just push through.
Okay. Let me share my screen, and we’re gonna talk about how this works. Alright.
This is the part that I wanna share with you most. You already know I think everybody already knows. If you’re not, like, looking at the camera, you’re not doing right in the call. If your background is crap, you’re not doing right in the call.
If your lighting is crap, come on. We’re all better than that. We know better than that. Right?
Then come the other things, like, should you be sitting or standing? Now I like to teach that you should be standing. It’s more engaged. You’re really up and you’re in it. You can lean in.
However, there’s a certain sort of power move to sitting. So I want you to make an intentional choice. So not intentionally sit. I’m being intentional in my sitting, but sit intentionally or stand intentionally.
And we can talk a bit about that. You’ll know right now. You should know right out of the gate which one feels better for you, and it’s not the one that’s more comfortable, by the way. Sitting is gonna be more comfortable. It just that’s what our chairs do.
But it’s a question of what and we’re talking about this in the intensive as well. What who are you as the brand sitting in front of them?
This thought leader where we’re talking about the leader side of it. You as a thought leader in x, does that thought leader sit or stand?
You already know this. You already know what you should be doing. You know who you see best, who you respond best to when they’re sitting versus when they’re standing, and it’s not always the same for everybody. So which one is it for you? Stand, if you don’t know if it should be sit or stand, I’d say stand is a really good starting point. Default to the thing where you’re up and engaged because sitting invites the leaning back, which shouldn’t happen out of the gate.
And that brings us to this part. And we’ll talk more about these other parts here at the top. But this is, I think, an important distinction that I’ve learned for myself. And when I have analyzed tonight, I have analyzed so many sales calls over the years watching the best salespeople.
And salespeople where I was like, really? This is what you’re gonna do for a living?
I’ve watched them both. And the ones that do the best work or that are the most where by the end of it, you’re like, holy shit. I wanna work for that person. Like, I I don’t even wanna be in business. Like, I watched one salesperson one time do this, what we’re gonna talk about so masterfully.
I was like, I and she was selling enterprise into high, like, high big engineering teams, and she was so good that I was, like, so excited for her and everybody who was signing up for her stuff. So I was like, you just get to be around this incredible salesperson. And that’s exactly what we are here. Right?
We’re we’re salespeople in these calls. So what she did is she would open the call as we all should being very likable. You’re smiling out of the gate. You’re looking at the camera.
Go into hide self mode if you must, if you find yourself looking at yourself a lot, like, to make sure you’re okay. Like, first check check that you’re okay before you let them in the room, and then go hide self view so that you can really look at the camera and get a sense. Give them the sense that you’re looking right at them, that they have your complete attention. Have a notepad handy as always.
Right? We’re not gonna get into that, but you don’t wanna be typing the whole way. Make sure you’re recording, etcetera, etcetera. But the point is you wanna be likable out of the gate.
That’s when you smile. If you’re wondering and this is gonna sound really stupid like, Joe, why are you teaching us this? Trust me. Trust me on this today. While the cold meds are making me a little wonky, I’m not gonna lie. I’m feeling a little bit off.
But it’s often a good way, I think.
Slightly slightly like drinking.
So smile out of the gate. Not not a big dumb grin, for lack of a better word, but smiling.
Right? So we’re smiling. We’re happy. We’re smiling with our eyes. We’re smiling with our mouths.
We’re likable. We’re friendly. We’re chatting in a friendly quick way. But we are also, managing and owning this conversation.
You’re smiling like the richest person in the room smiles. Not that you are, but that’s what’s going on in your head, and it makes you likable. You’re nothing’s wrong in your life. Everything’s good in your life.
You’re smiling. Things are good. You’re leaning in. You’re flattering. I love your business. I love what you do at Canva.
I love what you do at TELUS. Oh my gosh. I love what you do at Johnson and Johnson.
I love x y z. Just leaning in and flattering. And this is leaning directly in. Like, my elbows are on the desk.
I’m leaning in, and I’m looking at you and smiling, and it’s all good. Not crazy eyes. Watch your crazy eyes. Don’t be crazy eyes, but smiling.
We’re having a good time. This is when you’re starting the call. This doesn’t last for that long. You’re just setting a tone.
This is like a minute on your triage call where we’re, like, a fifteen minute call, max a minute of this part. And then the middle column here, the disqualification, this is when we start to back away. Your body backs away a little bit. And by the time you are ready to actually hear real stuff from them, you are leaning back.
And as we all know, that requires them that they lean in. They’re looking to get the same level of engagement that they got from you out of the gate. This sounds like dumb playing because it freaking is. We’re copywriters.
We know that a lot of persuasion for people comes down to things that feel like a game, and you can pretend it’s not a game. You can pretend that that’s not how people do it, or you can do it, but, like, in a chill, masterful way. So not like leaning in, flattering. Did I say a flattering thing?
Now I lean back. How I probe? Then I show confusion.
But rather just, like, use your body with your questions to help reflect the attitude of a person who is genuinely curious, which is what everybody wants out of their copywriter, someone who is genuinely curious, who wants to work together but isn’t going to compromise, and who asks hard questions. So the disqualification part is where most people talk about qualifying them. Do you qualify? We wanna go into it disqualifying them, and that starts with an audition.
Now this is triage. This isn’t a sixty minute call. This is the call where you’re just trying to set a tone. Should we work together or not?
And you’re going in thinking we’re not gonna work together, but I like you. We’re gonna figure this out. We’re gonna, like I wanna spend fifteen minutes with you. If it’s nothing else, I at least get to know another person, and that’s cool.
That’s your attitude. You don’t say those words. It’s just your attitude. So then we disqualify them.
That is when we are auditioning them. Now what do I mean by auditioning?
All sorts of things. You will know it when you see it. You will know it when you do it. It is the part where you are basically asking them to share with you why they’re so awesome, and not, like, why is their business so awesome necessarily.
Like, nothing you can find online, like, with a Google search or just just by knowing their brand. But, like, get them to share with you why you, as a freelancer, would wanna spend your time working with them. And those are really simple questions. Right?
We’re we’re already asking these questions. Where do you wanna be? Where are you now? Okay.
This is a gap of you wanna have ten thousand people on your list. You have five thousand people on your list. That’s a gap of five thousand. What’s causing the gap?
This is where you’re curious. You’re asking questions. Auditioning is still we’re not leaning back yet. We’re still, like, asking questions.
Okay. That’s a gap of blah blah blah. What’s causing the gap? Okay. How have you tried solving that?
You’re taking notes. You’re curious.
Then they’re starting to answer in ways that are concerning. And we all know that when they’re answering questions in this triage call, they also have their backs up a little bit. Right? So they’re not gonna give you everything, and you know that going into it.
If you don’t know that, if you haven’t experienced it, that’s the reality. That’s what you will be seeing if you haven’t seen it yet. I’m sure we’ve all seen that. So they’ve got their backs up a bit.
They’re also a little bit of a wall, and they’re going to give you half truths for things. They’re not gonna tell you everything. You get to know that that’s not true, and you get to ask them then probing questions. And this is the part where you start to turn into, the rich consultant who doesn’t need this job.
So I’m gonna need the my lead here to get real with me. So you’re telling me you’re at five thousand leads right now. You wanna get to ten thousand. These five thousand leads came in in the last three years.
And when did you wanna get to these these other five thousand leads in the next three months?
Can you walk me through, like, your thinking there? That’s where you’re allowed to actually dig in and start leaning back a bit. Like, convince me now that you’re not on your mind that, like, you have these big growth objectives, but you actually have, like, this the good sense to do the work well.
And this is where you start to show this confused curiosity. Like, wait. Okay. There must be something I’m not understanding.
So please help me understand.
You wanna double your list that took three years. Am I hearing just I just wanna make I wanna make sure. You wanna double your list that took three years in the next three months.
What where walk me through what’s actually happening here. Like, walk me through where this is coming from. I’d really love to know. You’re curious, but you’re confused.
They’re now going like, oh, shit. I’m about to be found out for not really knowing everything under the sun. Maybe I’m taking this call because someone on my team was supposed to take the call, and they’re sick today. But I still wanted to take the call because I still wanna do this or whatever it is.
I feel ill prepared to answer these questions. Oh my gosh. Can we just, like, figure out if we can even work together and now blah blah blah blah. So we don’t wanna make them feel uncomfortable, but we need to recognize that if all you do is smile and go, oh my gosh.
That’s genius. That’s perfect. That’s amazing. I love that. We can still do that. That’s so good but a good idea.
That sounds great. And with your brand, there’s no way this won’t work. If you keep doing all that kind of stuff the whole way through, that’s I have not seen that work well. What I’ve seen work well is like below the gate, leaning in, flattering, then you switch to auditioning them, ask them the questions that you need answered, better understand how they work with freelancers, how they value the specialization that you have.
As they say things that are confusing, lean back a little at a time, still making notes.
Your confused curiosity shouldn’t be like you furrowing your brow your whole time going like, what? Like, it’s not that. It’s not far over on the other side like, that sounds dumb. But rather at that balancing point where you’re like, okay. I don’t I’m not quite getting this. It’s not a hundred percent clear to me.
Please, like, explain this part to me as if it’s my first day on the job because I really, really wanna understand what’s happening for your business and how I can help you. And when you do that, some people may not like it. I don’t know who they are. Because when I do that, people tend to lean in and share them with you.
Like, oh, okay. Cool. Let me share this with you, but we only have fifteen minutes, don’t we? Yeah.
We do. So can you give me, like, the Coles notes version of that? And then they do. And that’s that is what I have seen.
That is what I’ve seen over thirteen years of doing this stuff out of in house.
And so that’s something that I would recommend for you is this disqualification area is really the part where if you think of yourself as, like, you’re leaning in, you’re at, like, a forty five degree angle. That’s too much leaning in, by the way. Then you go up to to ninety degrees, and then you go back to a hundred and thirty five, a hundred and twenty five, probably closer. But that’s what you wanna do is slowly lean back and then come around to the thing that they want.
They liked you out of the gate. Likable is huge. They have told you real things and you’ve asked them. You’ve probed not as, like, a curious little butterfly, but as, like, a curious consultant who just wants to know, like, because can I help you or can’t I? And if I don’t understand, then I can’t help you.
Toward the point where now you’re like, got it. Okay. So I see what you’re looking for now. Thank you for explaining that to me.
Here’s what I know we only got fifteen minutes. We got, like, four minutes left in this. So here’s what I would say. This is when you start leaning in again.
You’re smiling a bit more. You’re not like not like you were out of the gate, but you’re smiling. Now you guys are on the same page. Right?
This could work really well. I think that I could help you out with this, but only if and then you go back through the things that they said. Only if that thing that you said at that point is actually true. So only if you are really going to put a hundred thousand dollars into Facebook ads to grow your list by five thousand given that you’ve spent no money.
So can we say that that’s for sure that you’re gonna put that money? That’s already set up. Perfect. So I could see it as working then.
I could see being able to help you get there if that’s true. And, frankly, I’d really love to do this with you. As I mentioned, I love Johnson and Johnson, whatever that thing is. I’m I have your pills on my desk right now.
I don’t know what the thing is. Right? But you’re you’re getting back into, like, this would be cool. I do this all the time.
Do it for clients like x y z.
It starts at ten grand. How does that sit with your budget?
Cool.
Great. And then I think we should do this. So but we won’t know until we dig deeper in. So, the next step is a longer call, and then you go into the part that takes them over toward that, the next step, which is that sixty minute call that we talk about in freelancing school, and that we can talk about more here if you want to.
But that is the long and the short of it, where you wanna go through and come up with your own auditioning questions. What are the things that you often find yourself asking? What do you need to know from leads when you’re first talking to them during this triage call? And then we can talk more about how resting rich face works, but it really does come down less to less to, like, just do Zoom background stuff.
That’s one thing. And more to the attitude that you bring and the mood that that attitude helps to create.
Remember that people like likable, and they want that likable person that they liked out of the gate to like them back. So we can use that to have more productive calls and use some body language to go back and then come back together, and they feel a connection.
That isn’t true if you’re just always sitting there stoically looking, smiling, and doing things that just don’t feel engaging. So does that all make sense?
Yeah?
Questions?
No?
No?
Do you not say, like, anything about your process in that initial discussion?
So this is just, that would be in the part where we’re like, this would only work if, if that’s true. Cool. And if that’s true, great. Here’s how I get things done.
This is why I think it would work well for your business just based on this conversation we’ve had so far. Do you agree? How does that sound? I’m always getting the buy in from them as you’re going through.
But the point here is, yeah, you do have fifteen minutes. We’re focusing less on the script and more on intentionally doing the right things to get the right emotional reaction as you go. Mhmm. Cool?
Cool.
Oh, wait. I have a question.
Naomi?
Is the goal to find something problematic?
I feel like a lot of times I’m working with very skilled marketers, sometimes people who I’ve worked with in the past.
So, like, is what if there’s nothing like, is the goal to find something problematic in their proposal or their presentation?
And if so, what what if there’s nothing you can sort of pick apart?
No. The goal isn’t to, like, look for problems. The reality is that there usually is a problem. Or and it’s not even a problem. It’s like, help me understand what’s going on there.
And that’s, like, the curiosity that copywriters bring to the table. I’ve never I can’t remember ever having been in a triage or even a sales call where I was perfectly satisfied with what the client or lead was saying to me. It’s usually like I don’t know how that works. And you’re like, junior more junior freelancers, like, keep that to themselves, right, and go like, oh, okay. That’s really interesting. And then they’re like, I have no idea how that works, or is that even the right way to do it? Instead of saying, like, why can I ask you, like, why you’re taking that approach?
And if you do that while looking at them, you’ve already set up that you’re likable. They booked the call with you. If you can ask those questions with confused curiosity so there’s sometimes you’re gonna dial up the confusion, and sometimes you’re gonna dial up the curiosity.
And that’s really up to you. If you’re in a call and everything they say is, like, hunky dory, that’s amazing.
That’s cool. It’s just so rare, and it might require that you be more challenging.
Because if if their idea is perfect I I’m a smart marketer. I don’t I don’t have perfect ideas, and I can always benefit from a consultant coming in and saying, like, that’s cool. I like what you’re saying. What I’m confused about is this part. Can you help me understand that part? And then I’m like, oh, yeah. For sure.
Versus this all sounds perfect.
No notes, which is just so rare. Right? You’re allowed to have notes. Does that make sense, Naomi?
It makes sense. I’m just thinking through my client base, and a lot of the things feel very standard. Like, we’re doing a webinar and we need emails and LinkedIn ads, or we need a new website because we’re going for a funding round. Not that there’s no questions, just it feels like, okay. This is pretty typical.
This feels a little bit normal. So I’m trying to think of, like like, sure. I wanna know the context, and I wanna know who’s involved and what are the goals, but it doesn’t seem like it doesn’t make there there aren’t so many things that don’t make sense to me so much.
That’s fair. I mean, I would say put on your consulting hat instead of and maybe that’s just a difference in how you approach people, and that can be really valuable or depends on the kinds of projects that you’re getting.
I I know that there’s a lot of different ways people can go about doing things. I usually have some level of assumption. If someone says I want to have a million dollar launch, I wanna know a lot about that. What was your last launch? If the last launch was a hundred thousand, we got a problem. If the last launch was nine hundred thousand, we should probably shoot for higher than a million this time. Right?
So there’s you so it depends. It all depends. But what I wanna make sure I’m doing is getting in bed with people who are genuinely challenging the way things are so that I think this is maybe part of it. I’m only working with people who have really great ideas, and they’re open to better ways of doing them. Does that make sense?
Yeah. No. I like the idea. I just think that think it’ll take a little bit of thinking to figure out where those questions are, Because a lot of times with b two b, the numbers are not as like, the quality of the leads is a lot more important than the actual conversion rate.
And so sometime oh, I think a lot of times, the actual growth rates are not the top top priority, especially if it’s a little bit more top of funnel is what I found. So, a lot of those, like, numbered questions, I don’t find resonate as much. But I definitely think that there are probing questions. I’ll just have to figure out what those are.
Yeah. And, honestly, like, I have worksheets there to, like, fill in questions, like, some auditioning questions, which is really good if you’re specializing. Right? So I’m not sure, Naomi, that you’ve landed on that specialization yet. And if you have, if it’s top of funnel, then you just, like, identify what some of those questions are out of the gate. Most marketers, especially the kinds of marketers that you talk about working with, Naomi, are very interested in getting results for everything. I don’t especially in this economy and the reality of what’s going on right now.
Nobody is investing in things that they can’t measure because you’ve got to report to shareholders, to your board, to everybody.
And they need to know that even if it’s two thousand dollars spent on a freelancer, was it two thousand dollars well spent? So that’s where some of those numbers questions can come in. But it doesn’t even come down to numbers necessarily. Right? It’s really just a matter of, do you feel like you’re getting your work you’re gonna work with a client who, you can talk with is what it maybe comes down to a bit more. Yeah.
I I think it’s it’s also that there’s more of a shift from PPC to more of an ABM approach, more content marketing. And so it’s not that it’s not measurable. They’re still looking at the pipeline. They still think how many opportunities come in, but there are so many touch points that that kind of attribution tracking is not really in place for series b, series c startup. They don’t necessarily have the data infrastructure to be able to say exactly how things got from point a to point b.
So it’s Awesome.
Like, they’re definitely metrics to track, but it’s not always easy easy to figure out which ones.
Yeah. Totally.
Okay. Very cool.
What I would love to do now I know Jessica, Caroline, Stacy, you are off camera.
But I wanna role play. I wanna give out some resting rich face, action. So does anybody we need someone to be a client and someone to be the freelancer, And it’s fun. There’s this is a small group of us. A resting pot noodle face. What?
What is pot noodle? What the pot noodle?
I don’t know. It just, like that’s why I eat when I’m broke, so it kinda made sense.
Pot noodle. That’s hilarious.
Does anybody wanna give it a shot? Just the part where you’re working through the the likability of the lean in versus lean back.
Who wants to give it a shot?
I’m happy to play either role.
Okay. Anybody else wanna play?
I can be a client.
Okay. Naomi is client. Andrew is freelancer. Naomi is from what business?
Oh, I don’t know. I’ll say I’ll say monday dot com.
I would say monday dot com.
Okay. Naomi is from monday dot com, and she is looking for somebody to work on Andrew, what’s your what would you what would she be calling you for?
We’re gonna redo the home page. Okay. Because that’s everyone’s favorite.
Just the home page. No one don’t wanna do that. Naomi, you gotta make up some goals on the fly, stuff like that. Have the call, make it go. We are practicing, and it’s supposed to be fun while we’re at it.
Practicing everything that we just walked through. So opening the call.
This qualification and casual conversion.
Are we ready? Andrew, sorry.
So am I are we doing all of them, or we’re just starting with the opening?
You can just start just to, like, play around with the open through to beginning disqualification to get to a place of, showing confused curiosity.
Okay.
Paying attention to your face, looking in the camera, all of the stuff. Cool?
Okay. Yep.
Alright. Well done, you two.
And you’re actually kind of just winging it.
But Yeah.
Can I can I ask one follow-up question? Yeah. What’s your take on, like, small talk?
I so one of the things that I find useful, and I heard this from somebody at some point, is to say out of the gate, hey. I’ve got it in my calendar that we’ve got fifteen minutes to talk today. Is that right? Is that what you’ve got too? Cool. That’s not a lot of time. Do you just wanna jump in?
That is really good for that. Cool.
Alright. Cool.
Awesome. Alright. Alright. Ring ring. Zoom call starts.
Alright. Hey, Naomi. Can you hear me okay?
Yeah. How are you?
I’m good. I’m good. How are you? Yeah.
Doing well. Thank god.
Good. Glad to hear. Glad we could find some time to talk.
I have on our calendar that we just have about fifteen minutes here. Is that, is that what you have?
Yeah.
Okay. Cool. So let’s, let’s go ahead and just dive in because we have a lot to talk about and not a whole lot of time.
So, basically, the purpose of this call is for us to just chat and see if we have a suitable enough fit between us to warrant a second call where we could dive in deeper to talk about what a project might look like. Does that sound good for you?
Yeah.
Okay. Awesome. So, first question, how did you hear about me?
A friend recommended recommended you.
Must have seen LinkedIn or worked with you.
And yeah. So I figured I’d reach out.
Oh, great. Brian. Right? It was was it Brian who who?
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
Okay.
Brian’s guy. Awesome. Great. Yeah. Love Brian. Smart guy.
Awesome. So I have here that you said you were looking for someone to help overhaul your, homepage for Monday dot com. Could you tell me a little bit about what’s driving that? Like, what was going on in the business that made you say, okay. We need to start reaching out to people to find someone to overhaul our landing page.
Yeah. For sure. So we are moving towards more of an enterprise market.
Monday dot com is very different from Asana or Trello. It’s much more robust.
You can create a lot of your own apps and a lot of your own workflows, and so we really wanna emphasize that. We don’t think we’re doing a good enough job, And we want typically, we attack teams, and then we expand from there. And we want to push our enterprise efforts even further.
And we also have a different model now. We have different solutions where before we just had the general solution. Now we have solution for sales, a solution for marketing. We’re opening up a solution for HR.
And we feel like our current vision doesn’t really our our current home page doesn’t really encapsulate all of those new elements.
Okay.
So it sounds like there’s a lot going on product wise, and maybe some changes in terms of positioning, that kind of thing, new products, things like that.
I’m curious why you’ve decided to focus on the home page, for this update. Could you share a little bit of with me about why you think the home page is the focus here?
Well, we’re also working on the individual product pages, but we feel like Monday as a brand, the the homepage is really our digital storefront, and it’s people still think of us as a project management tool. And we’re hoping that the home page, when people land there, can give them a clearer image of who we are and what our value proposition is because that’s really our central component. Like, we have a huge acquisition team that’s working on different ads. We can add home teams, but the home page is sort of the central location. So we feel that if we shift the home page, then it’ll be clearer for people, to understand that new brand identity.
Okay.
I appreciate you sharing that.
Alright. Let’s let’s come back to that. I’m I’m a little bit curious. So, you know, with all of these changes that are happening, have has your team been able to document your updated positioning and messaging for these new products? So, you know, say, if we were to work together, if you’re gonna work with someone like me, what are you gonna have in place to help them understand exactly what I don’t know where I’ll do it. I don’t know where we’re coming with this.
I was trying to get into it, Andrew.
I I was just trying to, I You cut yourself short.
You’re doing great. You’re doing great.
It’s just a I know how to use this product.
I just didn’t know where we were gonna No.
No. I was just gonna watch you as long as I could. It’s like reality TV that I’ve just I’ve always wanted to see.
And I was trying to manufacture I was trying to manufacture a little bit of confused curiosity, but, no.
I appreciate it. Well done, Andrew. Well done, Naomi.
Naomi. Thank you.
Yes. Great stuff.
Notes. Well intentioned, loving notes for Andrew.
How did the lean in versus lean back go?
Come on. I thought he looked genuinely confused, curious. It was I was very sold. Yeah. Confused face was great. It was confused curiosity.
Clearly, you were paying attention.
I didn’t find it was distinct enough from the first face.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. Starting face just be a little smiley.
And I think I think naturally, I am smiley. I think that I default to the I I tend to be pretty friendly on the Yeah. Those opening calls. So that part comes naturally.
And I I think the rest kinda does too. I think it’s it’s but it I definitely know what you’re talking about about, like, when you hear something and you just kinda nod along, and you’re like, okay. Sure. And that’s over time, I’ve definitely gotten better at that at being a little bit more like, alright.
Hold up. Yeah.
That again.
So yeah. And, also, I appreciate your, tip on how to start how to how to politely skip small talk. Although, I don’t I don’t mind a little bit of small talk. I don’t I’m not above talking about the weather. So you know?
No. That’s cool. Feel free, yeah, to do that. What if you tilted your camera down a bit more? Can you try that?
Let’s see.
Just so we can see you lean back more.
That way if you lean back versus lean in now lean in, and now lean back. Leaning in?
Yeah.
Back. Yeah.
I I don’t know how everybody else feels about that, but to me, it feels more if I’m paying attention to you and I see you lean back, that’s a different feel versus leaning forward.
I would play with it. Smiling in. Yeah. Smile in. Question back. Use it back.
And in.
I love it.
I I love this stuff.
Like, I’m all about like, whenever you talk about, like, the you know, it’s a game. It’s I’m like, I’m all for it. I I love that part. I love Totally.
Right?
That’s awesome.
Cool. Otherwise, you weren’t taking notes during. Do you typically not take notes during? I type. Oh, you do type. Okay.
I type, and I actually tend to type a lot.
I don’t know how bad the sound is. Like, I don’t know if I’m you know?
Hopefully, it’s not too bad. Not at all. Sweet. I have a good mic here. Here.
So Okay.
That’s great. Yeah. Okay.
That helps. But, yeah, I take a lot of notes.
Cool. I have a question.
Yeah.
So if a company like I think they have, like, two thousand employees now.
I I’m wondering what it makes like, if they say, okay. We’re gonna redo the home page. This might be, like, a directive from the CEO saying, like, we have to redo the home page, and there might be less wiggle room about the actual project that needs to take place versus, like, their idea of how the messaging is going to happen or, like, details about the project.
Like, do you still think it makes sense to, like, quest at that point, like, for that kind of company, would it still make sense to question the actual, like, should we do this project, or, like, factors around the project itself?
So when I say, like, question it, I’m not necessarily saying get them to change their idea. Is that what you’re saying, Naomi?
Well, like, I I feel like there’s, yeah, like, there’s two different kinds of questions. Like, like, to ask, like, does this make any sense? Like, it may not really be their decision. They might be limited in Yeah.
And that’s cool. You’re a consultant. It like, we’re always leaning more towards consultant the more pro we get. Right? So we’re still doing, but you’ve gone through all of the early work of accepting.
And and now you’re at a place where you’re like, hang on.
I need to better understand this. So in you saying, hang on. I need to better understand this. You are just consulting with them in that moment.
And even if the person that you’re talking to is like, oh, I have I have no idea. I can’t change that. I don’t do anything with that. That’s not me.
That’s that’s okay. You don’t have to it doesn’t need to resolve in something. What you’re doing is showing that you know what’s up and asking the questions that you need answered in order to say yes or no, where we’re defaulting to no, of course. Right?
Start with no. Get them on board after auditioning them. Get them on board with what it takes to move forward with you. Does that make sense?
It it doesn’t mean you have to say, you think it should be a home page, and I think it should be a landing page. You can say that, but we also understand that they’ve got most people have, like, direction coming from someone else. And, like, the business has decided this, and they’re looking for a copywriter to work on that thing. Andrew, were you gonna add to this?
Yeah. Well, I guess one question for Naomi. I guess, when you’re talking to these people on that initial call, does that person typically have the authority to sign, like, to sign off on the budget and, like, sign the contract, or do they have to usually kick it upstairs to someone else?
No. I’m working with a lot of smaller companies. So, usually, they do have the budget, although some times they’ll have to get approval from the CEO. Okay.
But, typically, now they do. But, like, for a larger company, like, Monday dot com, like, in my mind, it would be, like, the CEO told us we have to redo the home page, so we have to redo the home page. Like, there’s no, like, that that’s just what they were told to do. That’s the end.
That’s the the answer.
Yeah. I gotcha. Okay. I mean, part of why I asked is because I was thinking, like, something I think this I think it’s Allen Weiss, who I learned this from, but, like, he has the the idea that, like, if you’re talking to, like, if you’re talking to someone who doesn’t have the authority to say yes, then, like, anyone who you’re talking to can say no.
Right? Like, someone could if you’re talking to someone who doesn’t have the authority to say yes, they might have the authority to say no. And so to me, that signals, like, maybe a need to bring someone else into the next call who has, like who’s, like, higher up and who, like because you have the lower level people are thinking, okay. We have these tasks to do, and here’s our timeline, and here’s our budget, and we need to check this.
And then sometimes, like, if you bring in someone who, like, hey. On your next call, why don’t we have the CMO join? And then all of a sudden you realize that that stuff that was, like, written in stone isn’t actually written in stone, and the person above them is like, oh, yeah. We can expand this or change this or, you know, do this because that person’s, like, thinking more long term, thinking more about value rather than the the manager who’s trying to, like, check all the boxes and make sure that things happen on time.
So that that was sort of that was part of my thought. And then I guess the other thing is, like, digging into, like, why do you why a home page? And it’s like, oh, because the CEO then it’s like, okay. Well, why does the CEO want that?
And so I think that there’s still, like, an opportunity to keep probing there. But I don’t know if any of that was useful, but, I just thought No.
That’s fair. That’s a good point.
Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, Andrew.
And Stacy added the economic buyer. Totally.
Awesome. Okay. How is everybody feeling about the idea of presenting resting rich face?
Even if it’s just knowing that you should. Like, that’s the starting point. Just know that that’s the more ideal thing.
I think a lot of people naturally have, like in this room have, like, a naturally good personality. But I I just wanna note, like, in that beginning, as you open the call, more energy, more enthusiasm, I have found is always better. I’ve seen smart, smart people lose the lead almost immediately because they just weren’t in it. There wasn’t a sense of energy of let’s connect of being there and having something to offer, I would just keep calling it energy.
So that’s where all the smiling happens, then no smiling. Then we’re, like, really focused on not smiling. We’re listening. We’re thoughtful.
We’re strategic people, and then we come back on board with, like, chill smile. Does that all make sense? The flow? Cool.
Elect Your Decision Committee
Elect Your Decision Committee
Transcript
Good to see your faces, where you’re showing your faces. Jessica, I’m looking at you even though I can’t look at you, Jessica. On her on her hat. Oh, that’s right. That’s right. Forgiven.
Okay. So welcome walking, she says. Perfect. Good work.
Okay. So, today, as usual, for Coffee School Pro, we’re kicking it off with a lesson.
Twenty minutes, let’s say, might be ish.
Might be ish.
And then we’ll get into the ask me anything slash q and a time where as per use, you must share a win first, and then we can get into your question. Alright?
Cool beans. So today, I wanted to share with you something that so I go to a lot of, like, wellness retreats.
I find that I come back much better as a human after I do these things, and so they’re becoming more and more frequent. It’s like, it’s almost weekly at this point. It’s not, but that would be amazing.
But at the so one of the things that comes up is this idea of you’ve got this, like, board of decision makers in your head, and you didn’t consciously elect them. They all just exist in your head, and they make all these decisions for you.
Even though you would never let them make a decision for you in real life, but there they are making all these of these of these wellness resort, wellness retreat discussions is the concept of a decision committee. So I wanted to share this with you today where the objective my objective in sharing it is, I have said again and again that mindset is more important than anything, when you are trying to build your business. Then there’s other stuff, but mindset’s always gonna be important. But when you’re trying to get started, there are a lot of things you have to, like, push against and push through. So, mindset goes a long way there.
So I’m going to share mindset training today, not usually my jam, but so useful. I have found so useful for myself, that I really don’t want to keep it from you. Take what you will as always from this, but I do strongly believe that if you can apply what’s in today’s training, it will help you through a lot of the really difficult stuff around, should I even be doing this? Is this the right approach for me? Maybe Joe was wrong about that. Maybe so and so was wrong about that. I couldn’t possibly be able to achieve x, y, or z.
All of the crap that keeps you from making progress.
So, this is this is designed at least to help you get through the crap.
It is called electing your decision committee.
So hold on. Where did my go into play mode go? Present full screen. Okay. So you should see it in full. You also have a copy of this worksheet yourself.
We’re all very aware that voices make up all of like, that there are voices in our head. You’re just not supposed to talk back to them is what I understand.
Not allowed at least. No? Just me? Okay.
So, again, this is getting down to consciously choosing who gets to make your decisions and who doesn’t. There are a lot of times in our lives when we have very important voices in our head that are there to keep us safe.
And those ones are important, and we don’t want them to go away. But they might get in the way of some important decisions you have to make as a business owner. So this is for your business. This is a question of whether your dad gets to have a say in your business, whether that favorite prop of yours gets to have a say in your business, whether the person who kept you from, God forbid, almost drowning in a pool, who saved your life when you were a kid, and they became this, like, person to you who is a protector.
Do they get to have a say in your business decisions? So, we all have this board in our head. It’s filled with hundreds of people, and some of them sneak into your decision committee whenever they feel like it. And that’s typically not going to be that helpful unless they’re consciously chosen.
So that’s what we wanna do. So here’s an example of if you think of, like, a boardroom and you think of people around it, you’re at the center of the table. Now in a boardroom, I know we don’t sit on the table. And in this visual, you’re basically sitting on the table, but you’re at the table.
Right? So if you have this challenge, let’s say and this is an example. I’m gonna walk us through it so it’s, like, clear.
You’re in the middle there. You say, okay. So Joe is teaching us about this authoritative offer idea in the intensive freelancing and carrying that through Coffee School Pro.
It’s a nice idea.
I like it, but, like, should I really change my whole offer right now? It feels like my whole business might in turn change. So you have this moment, and you’re trying to come to a decision.
Who gets to have a say in that decision?
So I’ve got some people here who might be, you know, who might be on my board. Dad, my dad during my teen years who thought I was a disaster for some reason.
So he’s very different from dad the rest of the time. But dad has two board seats here. Like, he gets to say a lot of things in my decision committee. He didn’t get elected. He’s not an entrepreneur. He was very protective, very unlikely to want me to make risky decisions.
My business bestie might have a very different way of coaching me through a decision that creative writing professor, doctor Hollings had, that I looked up to and thought was so amazing and very attractive while we’re on the subject of doctor Hollings that he could have something else to say. Like, Joe, I thought you were gonna be a novelist. Right? And he’s like, well, hold on. Hold on. That’s not it right now.
A bro marketer, someone you’re suddenly following on Instagram who is, like, putting on a big show and makes you feel maybe like, oh, damn. I’m never gonna get there. Or you’re right. I don’t work out thirty times a day, so I probably can’t also run a business.
Or your best friend who’s always broke but who loves you so much. These people, if they sit on your decision committee, you are basically alone in making of that decision still. You are going to be balancing a whole bunch of crap. None of it is that useful.
Your business bestie might come through or dad ninety nine percent of the time might come through, but really up against a bunch of other people who don’t have a say in your business and yet somehow they do. So we want to get rid of the wrong choices and elect consciously the right choices. Now this may feel like not a scientific exercise because it’s not. This is about you just being like you as business owner, looking for the right voices to help you make a call.
So here’s what I want to call us to do today. For the next ten ish minutes, I want you to elect your own decision making committee nominees.
They go here on these lines, so you get about three of them, and then you choose one.
For these are going to be the people that you let help you make a call. Now you don’t have to actually call them up. You can, but you don’t have to. It’s really when you’re sitting there and you’re thinking, should I do this thing next?
Should I charge twenty thousand dollars? Joe said ten. Should I charge twenty thousand for this thing? I feel like it might be a twenty thousand dollar gig.
Who do you let in and who doesn’t get a say in what you do? So you’ve got ten minutes.
Does it first, is this clear to everybody? I think it’s clear. Right? Cool. So write in some of your nominees.
Who should go there under your trusted family members? Your ideal client should probably have a seat on your decision committee. Someone from finance should have a seat on your decision committee. An admired business contact definitely should. An existing client, so existing versus ideal because you will naturally have tension between both when you’re kind of trying to come up with the, right solution. And then someone dependent or a team member. So if you have a team member, it’s likely that one of them should sit on your decision committee.
If you have children, they likely will, or a spouse, they likely will sit on there. You can’t help it. You make decisions with that person for your business. They’re going to have a say.
They need to sit on your decision committee. How are they different from trusted family? This could be, again, like my dad. Trusted family member, not a dependent, not a team member, but someone I wanna have on my decision committee if I did if I did want to.
I don’t think my dad would make it on here, frankly, but someone else might. My nana, a protector type person who also thinks the best of you, that sort of thing. That’s for me. Whoever it is for you, that’s for you.
Okay? So we’re gonna do that for about nine minutes now, and then we’ll come back on at twenty after the hour. Cool beans?
Cool beans. Alright.
That is time.
Excellent. Does everybody have a decision committee?
Yeah? How do you feel about it?
Decent?
Okay. Okay.
Alright. Cool.
Okay. So if the idea here is that you intentionally elect a maximum of six board members for your decision committee. It should look a lot like this. Right?
You should put their names on here and actually say, like, so and so and put them in each of their seats. And then when it comes time to make a decision, use the worksheet. Print off a bunch of them and actively write in what your decision is that you’re trying to make and then what each of those board members would say. So that can be a really useful exercise.
I’ve got my own decision committee. Again, this is just for business. You’ll have different board members for different things. But for your business, do you have people sitting there?
Oh, yes, Jessica. That’s a really good point. I too need to fill my finance role. So it can be a useful exercise to see who doesn’t exist in those roles and where you have to go out and look for somebody.
I have an accountant. I have a bookkeeper.
I have multiple lawyers, but none of them sit there. My husband is the CFO, but I still don’t have anybody who I would put on my business finance, decision, like, decision money for that that finance role. So I think it’s a good thing to know, like, who if I don’t have that, then I probably don’t have that person helping me make decisions. So anyone you couldn’t fill in is, like, start going out, might be a time to buy a book on that subject or start following different people on Instagram, LinkedIn, whatever that could help you that could be the right voice in your head for that missing seat. That’s a great point, Jessica. Yes. Thank you.
Okay. So this is what we wanna do. This is a useful exercise. Thank you, Jessica.
And when it comes to actually making that call so the problem the problem with six people sitting around a table talking about your problem is, well, which one gets to say, though, which one really helps me make the final decision.
So if you use RACI, we talk about day c in ten x f c, which is decision making as well.
But RACI is a little different because instead of having driver, and approver, which is good for copywriting projects and, you know, other creative projects. Instead, we have responsible and accountable. And then these are also different too. Informed is the same, but this is contributor for the DAISY, and this is consulted for this for RACY. Again, a different way to make a decision. So what you can do here is you can then take those board members and say thank you all for all of your contributions to my decision.
Who is responsible and who is accountable? These are the two that should have the greatest say in the final decision. So if you’re gonna make a really hard financial call, chances are good that you’d wanna make, your finance person from your decision committee, put them on this line. It might be your client. It might be someone else, but, you wanna make sure that the right people are helping you make the right call. So, for example, if you are Elon Musk and your decision to make is to buy Twitter or ruin your leg or avoid ruining your legacy, responsible, you are responsible. The accountable person is someone who is, like, an existing customer, let’s say.
In this case, Elon Musk consulted himself, as his own admired business leader and his mom. And then the informed people were probably those who should have sat up on accountable instead and been more than just consulted, and then he might have made a better call. So you can have all the right people on your board, but you have to put them in the right spots for decision making. That’s what we wanna do.
Make copies of this. I recommend you do at least or have this if you just wrote it down as a work, like, in your workbook, or a notebook, just keep that present. Keep it visible. If you just do this one time and then walk away from it, it’s not gonna really help you get ahead.
So how can you start integrating this decision committee into your decision making process?
Andrew says That’s awesome, Abby. Andrew says, does this have to be one person from each group? I want my board to be mostly admired business contacts.
Feel free to. I would say no more than six people who are there to help you make decisions. Six is already a lot, but it’s kinda standard for most committees in life, four to six people depending on what you’re trying to do, of course.
So whatever you feel like, but just make sure, that you’ve got a good mix of people so that you can end up making a call that will stick. If it’s all, like, Warren Buffett and, like, all these great names, you’ll always be driven to a certain kind of call, and you might lose, like sometimes the reason I have a trusted family here is, there’s a lot of value in having a low or a risk averse person in the room, not always, and they don’t get to make the call. But because you are making so many decisions as a, as a solopreneur, as somebody who’s, like, running your own business, you have to make all these decisions alone.
You do need this help. It can be good also to have somebody in there who’s, like, tempering your ambition. If you find that you are really, like, do everything, go everywhere, make sure you’ve got finance in there. I would say don’t let finance off your decision committee.
And if you’ve identified that gap, make sure they’re there because you’re gonna have a lot of big business names going, yes. Do it. Do it. Take out that loan or whatever it might be, and it could be the perfect call.
You might wanna do that. But just make sure you consult with finance before you make that call. Cool.
Alright.
Did anybody find this a useful exercise?
Do you see how you might use it in life, in your business decision making? I find it so useful.
So hopefully okay. So Andrew said, immediately you see who is not on the list. Yeah. Exactly.
Who didn’t make the call? You thank them. They can help you make make other decisions in life, just not these ones. Yeah.
Love it. Cool.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
Good to see your faces, where you’re showing your faces. Jessica, I’m looking at you even though I can’t look at you, Jessica. On her on her hat. Oh, that’s right. That’s right. Forgiven.
Okay. So welcome walking, she says. Perfect. Good work.
Okay. So, today, as usual, for Coffee School Pro, we’re kicking it off with a lesson.
Twenty minutes, let’s say, might be ish.
Might be ish.
And then we’ll get into the ask me anything slash q and a time where as per use, you must share a win first, and then we can get into your question. Alright?
Cool beans. So today, I wanted to share with you something that so I go to a lot of, like, wellness retreats.
I find that I come back much better as a human after I do these things, and so they’re becoming more and more frequent. It’s like, it’s almost weekly at this point. It’s not, but that would be amazing.
But at the so one of the things that comes up is this idea of you’ve got this, like, board of decision makers in your head, and you didn’t consciously elect them. They all just exist in your head, and they make all these decisions for you.
Even though you would never let them make a decision for you in real life, but there they are making all these of these of these wellness resort, wellness retreat discussions is the concept of a decision committee. So I wanted to share this with you today where the objective my objective in sharing it is, I have said again and again that mindset is more important than anything, when you are trying to build your business. Then there’s other stuff, but mindset’s always gonna be important. But when you’re trying to get started, there are a lot of things you have to, like, push against and push through. So, mindset goes a long way there.
So I’m going to share mindset training today, not usually my jam, but so useful. I have found so useful for myself, that I really don’t want to keep it from you. Take what you will as always from this, but I do strongly believe that if you can apply what’s in today’s training, it will help you through a lot of the really difficult stuff around, should I even be doing this? Is this the right approach for me? Maybe Joe was wrong about that. Maybe so and so was wrong about that. I couldn’t possibly be able to achieve x, y, or z.
All of the crap that keeps you from making progress.
So, this is this is designed at least to help you get through the crap.
It is called electing your decision committee.
So hold on. Where did my go into play mode go? Present full screen. Okay. So you should see it in full. You also have a copy of this worksheet yourself.
We’re all very aware that voices make up all of like, that there are voices in our head. You’re just not supposed to talk back to them is what I understand.
Not allowed at least. No? Just me? Okay.
So, again, this is getting down to consciously choosing who gets to make your decisions and who doesn’t. There are a lot of times in our lives when we have very important voices in our head that are there to keep us safe.
And those ones are important, and we don’t want them to go away. But they might get in the way of some important decisions you have to make as a business owner. So this is for your business. This is a question of whether your dad gets to have a say in your business, whether that favorite prop of yours gets to have a say in your business, whether the person who kept you from, God forbid, almost drowning in a pool, who saved your life when you were a kid, and they became this, like, person to you who is a protector.
Do they get to have a say in your business decisions? So, we all have this board in our head. It’s filled with hundreds of people, and some of them sneak into your decision committee whenever they feel like it. And that’s typically not going to be that helpful unless they’re consciously chosen.
So that’s what we wanna do. So here’s an example of if you think of, like, a boardroom and you think of people around it, you’re at the center of the table. Now in a boardroom, I know we don’t sit on the table. And in this visual, you’re basically sitting on the table, but you’re at the table.
Right? So if you have this challenge, let’s say and this is an example. I’m gonna walk us through it so it’s, like, clear.
You’re in the middle there. You say, okay. So Joe is teaching us about this authoritative offer idea in the intensive freelancing and carrying that through Coffee School Pro.
It’s a nice idea.
I like it, but, like, should I really change my whole offer right now? It feels like my whole business might in turn change. So you have this moment, and you’re trying to come to a decision.
Who gets to have a say in that decision?
So I’ve got some people here who might be, you know, who might be on my board. Dad, my dad during my teen years who thought I was a disaster for some reason.
So he’s very different from dad the rest of the time. But dad has two board seats here. Like, he gets to say a lot of things in my decision committee. He didn’t get elected. He’s not an entrepreneur. He was very protective, very unlikely to want me to make risky decisions.
My business bestie might have a very different way of coaching me through a decision that creative writing professor, doctor Hollings had, that I looked up to and thought was so amazing and very attractive while we’re on the subject of doctor Hollings that he could have something else to say. Like, Joe, I thought you were gonna be a novelist. Right? And he’s like, well, hold on. Hold on. That’s not it right now.
A bro marketer, someone you’re suddenly following on Instagram who is, like, putting on a big show and makes you feel maybe like, oh, damn. I’m never gonna get there. Or you’re right. I don’t work out thirty times a day, so I probably can’t also run a business.
Or your best friend who’s always broke but who loves you so much. These people, if they sit on your decision committee, you are basically alone in making of that decision still. You are going to be balancing a whole bunch of crap. None of it is that useful.
Your business bestie might come through or dad ninety nine percent of the time might come through, but really up against a bunch of other people who don’t have a say in your business and yet somehow they do. So we want to get rid of the wrong choices and elect consciously the right choices. Now this may feel like not a scientific exercise because it’s not. This is about you just being like you as business owner, looking for the right voices to help you make a call.
So here’s what I want to call us to do today. For the next ten ish minutes, I want you to elect your own decision making committee nominees.
They go here on these lines, so you get about three of them, and then you choose one.
For these are going to be the people that you let help you make a call. Now you don’t have to actually call them up. You can, but you don’t have to. It’s really when you’re sitting there and you’re thinking, should I do this thing next?
Should I charge twenty thousand dollars? Joe said ten. Should I charge twenty thousand for this thing? I feel like it might be a twenty thousand dollar gig.
Who do you let in and who doesn’t get a say in what you do? So you’ve got ten minutes.
Does it first, is this clear to everybody? I think it’s clear. Right? Cool. So write in some of your nominees.
Who should go there under your trusted family members? Your ideal client should probably have a seat on your decision committee. Someone from finance should have a seat on your decision committee. An admired business contact definitely should. An existing client, so existing versus ideal because you will naturally have tension between both when you’re kind of trying to come up with the, right solution. And then someone dependent or a team member. So if you have a team member, it’s likely that one of them should sit on your decision committee.
If you have children, they likely will, or a spouse, they likely will sit on there. You can’t help it. You make decisions with that person for your business. They’re going to have a say.
They need to sit on your decision committee. How are they different from trusted family? This could be, again, like my dad. Trusted family member, not a dependent, not a team member, but someone I wanna have on my decision committee if I did if I did want to.
I don’t think my dad would make it on here, frankly, but someone else might. My nana, a protector type person who also thinks the best of you, that sort of thing. That’s for me. Whoever it is for you, that’s for you.
Okay? So we’re gonna do that for about nine minutes now, and then we’ll come back on at twenty after the hour. Cool beans?
Cool beans. Alright.
That is time.
Excellent. Does everybody have a decision committee?
Yeah? How do you feel about it?
Decent?
Okay. Okay.
Alright. Cool.
Okay. So if the idea here is that you intentionally elect a maximum of six board members for your decision committee. It should look a lot like this. Right?
You should put their names on here and actually say, like, so and so and put them in each of their seats. And then when it comes time to make a decision, use the worksheet. Print off a bunch of them and actively write in what your decision is that you’re trying to make and then what each of those board members would say. So that can be a really useful exercise.
I’ve got my own decision committee. Again, this is just for business. You’ll have different board members for different things. But for your business, do you have people sitting there?
Oh, yes, Jessica. That’s a really good point. I too need to fill my finance role. So it can be a useful exercise to see who doesn’t exist in those roles and where you have to go out and look for somebody.
I have an accountant. I have a bookkeeper.
I have multiple lawyers, but none of them sit there. My husband is the CFO, but I still don’t have anybody who I would put on my business finance, decision, like, decision money for that that finance role. So I think it’s a good thing to know, like, who if I don’t have that, then I probably don’t have that person helping me make decisions. So anyone you couldn’t fill in is, like, start going out, might be a time to buy a book on that subject or start following different people on Instagram, LinkedIn, whatever that could help you that could be the right voice in your head for that missing seat. That’s a great point, Jessica. Yes. Thank you.
Okay. So this is what we wanna do. This is a useful exercise. Thank you, Jessica.
And when it comes to actually making that call so the problem the problem with six people sitting around a table talking about your problem is, well, which one gets to say, though, which one really helps me make the final decision.
So if you use RACI, we talk about day c in ten x f c, which is decision making as well.
But RACI is a little different because instead of having driver, and approver, which is good for copywriting projects and, you know, other creative projects. Instead, we have responsible and accountable. And then these are also different too. Informed is the same, but this is contributor for the DAISY, and this is consulted for this for RACY. Again, a different way to make a decision. So what you can do here is you can then take those board members and say thank you all for all of your contributions to my decision.
Who is responsible and who is accountable? These are the two that should have the greatest say in the final decision. So if you’re gonna make a really hard financial call, chances are good that you’d wanna make, your finance person from your decision committee, put them on this line. It might be your client. It might be someone else, but, you wanna make sure that the right people are helping you make the right call. So, for example, if you are Elon Musk and your decision to make is to buy Twitter or ruin your leg or avoid ruining your legacy, responsible, you are responsible. The accountable person is someone who is, like, an existing customer, let’s say.
In this case, Elon Musk consulted himself, as his own admired business leader and his mom. And then the informed people were probably those who should have sat up on accountable instead and been more than just consulted, and then he might have made a better call. So you can have all the right people on your board, but you have to put them in the right spots for decision making. That’s what we wanna do.
Make copies of this. I recommend you do at least or have this if you just wrote it down as a work, like, in your workbook, or a notebook, just keep that present. Keep it visible. If you just do this one time and then walk away from it, it’s not gonna really help you get ahead.
So how can you start integrating this decision committee into your decision making process?
Andrew says That’s awesome, Abby. Andrew says, does this have to be one person from each group? I want my board to be mostly admired business contacts.
Feel free to. I would say no more than six people who are there to help you make decisions. Six is already a lot, but it’s kinda standard for most committees in life, four to six people depending on what you’re trying to do, of course.
So whatever you feel like, but just make sure, that you’ve got a good mix of people so that you can end up making a call that will stick. If it’s all, like, Warren Buffett and, like, all these great names, you’ll always be driven to a certain kind of call, and you might lose, like sometimes the reason I have a trusted family here is, there’s a lot of value in having a low or a risk averse person in the room, not always, and they don’t get to make the call. But because you are making so many decisions as a, as a solopreneur, as somebody who’s, like, running your own business, you have to make all these decisions alone.
You do need this help. It can be good also to have somebody in there who’s, like, tempering your ambition. If you find that you are really, like, do everything, go everywhere, make sure you’ve got finance in there. I would say don’t let finance off your decision committee.
And if you’ve identified that gap, make sure they’re there because you’re gonna have a lot of big business names going, yes. Do it. Do it. Take out that loan or whatever it might be, and it could be the perfect call.
You might wanna do that. But just make sure you consult with finance before you make that call. Cool.
Alright.
Did anybody find this a useful exercise?
Do you see how you might use it in life, in your business decision making? I find it so useful.
So hopefully okay. So Andrew said, immediately you see who is not on the list. Yeah. Exactly.
Who didn’t make the call? You thank them. They can help you make make other decisions in life, just not these ones. Yeah.
Love it. Cool.
Managing Imposter Syndrome
Managing Imposter Syndrome
Transcript
As you probably know from, what Sarah shares, the workshop well, let’s take a bit of time example, I just never been on stage because I’m just such a shy person. I’m such a shy person. That statement there, the unsoci a shy person is then very much making themselves a problem. So if you’re working with neurodifinib in that context to help them slowly externalize Now I think the one caveat with this approach is that, obviously, that kind of process, can take a little while.
Obviously, there’s a therapist or someone else in the room. So this morning, we’re going to borrow a technique from the this technique is also often used not just for, influential people in the client’s life, but also for parts of themselves. So, for example, going back to that shift as I did I shared before, you could invite a client with that presenting issue to put their shyness in the chair so that they could start to help separate it from themselves, and get a really clear picture of what that shyness looks like, what flares it up, what can help calm it down, when it’s more likely to show up, and what it’s actually trying to achieve.
So this is just some context we’re about to dive into. Hopefully, that makes sense. And, hopefully, as I go through this, it will make more and more sense. But if not, please let me know.
I am so happy to explain these things in a different ways. So let me share my screen so, I can have the worksheet up as I talk. And, obviously, you guys should all have a copy of this, but feel free to just watch on my screen if that is easier. Sorry.
My head’s in the way. Okay.
Believing that if we can just quiet that voice, we’ll be able to do the thing that’s trying to get in the way of. And I find time and time again with this, it is so surprising how much of the heat is taken out of the imposter syndrome simply by giving it space free and inviting it to take the floor. So invite it into that chair, ask it to start the conversation. You know?
Okay. What do you want me to know? Why are you showing up today? What is it you’re trying to do?
And then, of course, So, basically, yeah, inviting it to tell you why it’s showing up, you know, what it’s feeling, what it’s thinking, what it wants you to know. And, again, I suspect that a lot of the time you’ll be surprised that the root cause of the imposter syndrome and all that mindset muck that it’s throwing up for you is on some level that it’s trying to protect you. Right? Protect you from failure.
Protect you from overexposure. Protect you from something else. But unfortunately, they tend to have a really shitty way going about this protective thing. But, again, if you are able to get to a point where that becomes obvious, you can also shift the relationship that you have with the imposter syndrome because you may go from a place or painting it Now important for me to note here that I don’t mean that you’ll do this once and then magically you’ll never have to deal with elements of your imposter syndrome again.
Certainly, the more often you do this, the less of a hold your imposter syndrome will have over your own reactions, but, you know, for the first, you know, one, two, three times, it’s enough to just shift the dynamic between you and it in that moment for that current challenge.
Now, again, this usually takes about ten, maybe fifteen minutes. I know it could probably seem like a lot of people have been profier. And also still, again, it probably seems like a very strange exercise. After you have got to a point where you feel like there is some level of insight or some shift in that dynamic, it’s really important to reflect.
Of course, this is usually the role of the therapist or the up? What was surprising? What do I know now that I didn’t previously? So, again, building this growing awareness of your imposter syndrome, how it functions, when it’s more likely to show up, what really flares it up, what you can do to calm or settle it, how you can actually work with sometimes, quite a time, they can park with their imposter syndrome and work towards some really cool things.
Again, because it’s such a difficult process, there’s no right or wrong, far. I would love to know if there are any questions, if anything didn’t make sense, any initial thoughts or responses. And then after that, we can wrap it up for general question.
I have a question.
Yeah. Of course.
So imposter syndrome is not something that I personally that personally bothers me a lot, but I think it’s a cool exercise.
I’ve looked at my suggestions for other, other pain points, other, obstacles, limitations that you think or maybe in the past where you found that clients really struggle with. Because I was trying to think of some, and I’m, like, come immediately to mind. So I was wondering if you have any other suggestions, that this exercise might be good for.
You know, that maybe tends to be towards perfectionism. There’s some examples from clients that worked recently, so they don’t resonate, leave them behind. It might be, some forms of fear, for example. It could also be you could also use this technique too if you have a really problematic client and you are feeling that a project you’re working on is not going well, if something is just, you know, really not working, it could actually be a good way to have a conversation, with someone who is then really challenging with you without actually having to have a conversation or before having a conversation. So you could try and get some perspective on where they might be coming from, what might be happening Thanks, Jeremy. Thank you.
Any other questions on this couple comments?
I named mine. It wasn’t for this.
It wasn’t for, like, I totally agree.
Ninety can really just help make it a phone entity and make it separate from you. And did you find I’m so curious. Did you find that after you’ve made an end that it was more easy easier to sort of call it up and address it as separate from you?
I think it took I mean, it took a little practice in general, but I came by this by myself. It was actually because I was seeking out therapy for another kind of Ed and, the therapists were terrible. So I found this, and then people had said that they called theirs ed. And so I think after I got used to calling it that and actually speaking, I think it it did eventually.
It was just it didn’t come natural course at first, but I don’t know what does. So but I do really I did start, I do tend to say things like, well, I’m a bad person. Why would if you’re a smart enough person, why would you struggle with this? So if you have a half a brain, why would you struggle with this?
And it did help with naming it and then recognizing other things, like, I had created, I don’t know I don’t know if this applies maybe for I don’t think it does, but I started realizing that Ed was kind of, have you ever seen, like, a a dog or a goat or something in a field where it does the same path over and over again? It creates you know what I’m talking about?
So I started realizing that Ed was doing that in my brain with this stuff. And so if I let him do that, those net path was just gonna get harder and harder to, you know, like, let grass grow or something else.
And I don’t know.
So it’s something like connecting the fact that Ed was like my dog running in my yard, and now I don’t have grass in certain parts. If I could think of my brain that way with these negative behaviors, somehow that helped with sorry. Hi. Which is realizing that, okay. Every time I, kind of let him take control, then that that path is getting deeper and deeper and, harder to, I don’t know, let anything else live there with us. And somehow that that connection for me worked. I don’t know if that helps anyone.
But.
It’s like you don’t wanna struggle, but you’re not taking that crappy advice.
So that’s something.
I think. Alright. Anything else for anyone on this before we go?
I’ll go. I don’t know if my hand is showing.
I’m sorry. It’s right. I just hand. Yes. My little Lego hand.
Yeah, something that I sort of struggle with. Yeah. I’m sort of blending imposter syndrome and, inner critic together for for the sake of this exercise.
But I I think something that I kinda struggle with is, like, a lot of times that inner critic, it seems to be very accurate or it’s like it at least appears that it’s being, like, reasonable and objective. And I sometimes have a hard time separating what is, you know, just kind of unhelpful mental chatter versus what is actually alerting me to something, you know for example, like, I’m reading, you know, ten x’s season two x right now. He talks about your, you know, your finding your unique ability. And so, you know, just for, like, an example, like, like, I I don’t think I’m, like, really that good at copywriting, honestly.
Like, I don’t think I’m, like, that great at it.
And there’s a part of me that, like, feels like, you know, like, obviously, that’s relative. Right? Like, I’m better than my clients are. That’s for sure.
But, like, you know, I’m also exposed to a community of people where there’s really, really, really good copywriters. And there’s a part of me that’s, like, how much of this is kind of, like, unhelpful mental chatter that’s just making me feel bad about myself? And how much of this could be something where it’s, like, maybe this isn’t my unique ability. Maybe what I, you know, should be doing is, like, you know, something adjacent to this or something next to this, and and that’s not, like, the thing for me.
So I guess and I think part of the answer if I it’s not part of the answer is that I think you can partner with their imposter or complex or whatever it is. And it’s like, you know, I think that I think that that’s kind of what I’m trying to do here is try to look at it and say, like, okay. Are you helping me or are you not helping me?
Can you help me?
So, yeah, I guess the question is how do you sort of tease apart what is unnecessary mental chatter versus, maybe some, like, honest self feedback?
Mhmm.
Thoughts and thoughts and feelings. Right? And, like, you’ll you’ll get your fame and get it saying, and you might find, okay, maybe that is actually some truth to it. I suspect the line in terms of what is a maybe useful insight versus what is unhelpful mental chatter comes down to how much you feel what you’re hearing inside your own head is creating a roadblock. So it’s stopping you from taking whatever mood you wanna make. Because it could be, like as you say, maybe, and I don’t know, I haven’t seen your copy, but I’m actually gonna make some of the That’s right.
Then it’s okay. But if it’s something that or something that like, if a friend told you that, then you wouldn’t be friends with that person, then that’s probably a good sign that it’s too harsh. And that always helps me.
Yeah. For sure.
I I definitely it’s something that reminds me of, like, a technique that I’ve definitely heard of before where you have to, like like, talk to yourself as you would a friend and you realize that you would never talk to a friend before you talk to yourself.
Yeah. No. That’s helpful, though. Appreciate it.
And, Andrea, if you’re open to it, you know, feel free to share any of these, like, thoughts, worries, or concerns in Slack as you go, because I feel like it would be helpful as well to have some outside perspective on, like, if this like, guys, this is what my brain’s telling me. Does this sound like in critical or what does this sound like something that can be really relatable? Like, where is this going on the spectrum?
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I’ll I’ll do that. Yeah. It’s sometimes, like, it happens every once in a while where someone’s like, really?
Like, you you get anxious or, like, you have, like, my head. I was like, what am I doing that communicates? And I’m, like, super confident and everything. That’s definitely not a case at all.
Definitely, like, a mess half the time for sure. So, yeah, I’ll I’ll try to be more more open in the mindset.
Yeah. No. Appreciate it. Thank you. No worries. Alright. Anyone else? Any coaching questions, requests?
I feel like Caroline’s oh, did I call her? Yeah. Are you going right off there? I saw it in your face.
No. I have a I have a thought, but I’m not quite sure if it’s a question or, like, where the question lies.
So it was something that, Kirsty, you said, you know, you, invited Andrew to share, some of his thoughts with the group in Slack.
And, I don’t know.
Like, does that help you, Andrew, when somebody says, oh, no. You’re actually a really great copywriter. You’re amazing. Does that sink in for you?
And the reason I ask is my fear of being a fraud runs so deep that unless I believe it, I don’t really it doesn’t matter what anybody says to me. So external validation doesn’t really mean the same mean that much to me. So if I say I’m struggling with this or I feel like, you know, I speak out loud those negative thoughts, like, oh, I think I’m not a good copywriter or I’m not x y z, and somebody said, no. No.
No. You really are.
My next thought is, well, of course, you’ll say that because you’re my friend. Or I I discount the compliment, the praise that comes from somebody else.
Unless I believe it, it doesn’t really impact me.
And yeah.
And and I don’t know if this is if this fits together. Like, is this a personality thing? But I gain confidence from repetition and proving myself to myself.
So I don’t know. Is there I don’t know really where I don’t know if there’s a question in there. It was just a thought that came to mind when Andrew when you asked Andrew to share in Slack because my immediate thought was, well, that wouldn’t help me if somebody validated me.
Or Yeah.
Sure. And sorry to clarify, Andrew, I wasn’t saying for you to share things so that we could all jump on and give you compliments necessarily. Oh, yeah. I know. Help you try and find the line between, like, you know, what does this seem like? Does this seem like a useful insight that I should be paying attention to? Or does this seem like some trash talk that’s getting in the way of things?
Because I’ve I think you were totally clear.
I think that that’s just where my mind went because I was like, oh, I don’t know. My mind just jumped there. I think you were totally clear.
Oh, no. I understand. Every chance I was not.
I I understood that, but I also I mean but, Caroline, I I agree. Like, I mean, maybe if it was Jo, like, because I feel like Jo would give me, like, the the truth. Like, I feel like she would give me honest feedback. But for the most part, like anyone else, I probably wouldn’t take it all that seriously.
Like, I agree with you. It’s more about, like, what do I think? And and for me, I don’t know if you’re like this too, Caroline, but, like, for me, it’s like the what the part of me that I think is driving a lot of this is, like, a desire for, like, objectivity and accuracy about it. I don’t want to think of myself as better than I am. I don’t wanna think of myself as worse than I am. I wanna know objectively where I stand, and I think that’s, I think that’s what drives a lot of benefit.
And I think what makes it harder, what distorts that, our ability to assess that is that there are lots of people out there that sound like they’re great, but, it may not be based on truth.
And so you’re trying to filter you’re trying to figure out what the truth is when some you know, there is some false truths out there.
I don’t know. Yeah. I I totally I I think I what you said resonates with me and the challenge that I have. So I have this, like, mental, tug of war in my head because I know I mean, I’ve lived long enough to know that not everybody who sounds, like, you know, says sounds great is really that great.
You know, there are lots of copywriters out there that may not may have less experience than me, but are charging more.
And they sound great on LinkedIn or Instagram.
But, yeah, and so in my head, I’m like, intellectually, I know that, but it is hard for me to translate that into, like, self confidence.
Mhmm.
Like, I have to feel like I have to convince myself that I’m, like, good enough for me, I guess. I don’t but I but that thing, that, like, bar is so it’s, I don’t know. You really can’t it’s not clear where that bar is. So I think I always feel like I’m never good enough.
I never yeah.
This is such a rich conversation. I feel there are so many things here. So first of all, yes, I think that it’s it’s impossible to base your self worth on external validation.
You’re just gonna build an empty castle that way, right? It’s gonna crumble at the the smallest hiccup. You know? If someone then says, oh, that was you didn’t perform well. That was a bad project, and it’s all down under you. I think a good coach, and I think all the coaches inside of this program, will not be here to compliment you, but to help you step up to the plate and do the things that let you prove to yourself that you’re in the right spot, that you’re doing the right work, that you have value.
Because I think that’s the difference, right? It’s enabling you to take on those opportunities where you can amass that proof for yourself and you can start to build that story out for yourself so that you know internally you’re validated, which is just infinitely more powerful than any external validation anyone could give you. Even Joe, who you’re right Andrew would definitely tell it like it is.
I also think too it’s probably worth noting that in a program like this, you know, it can also that comparisonitis can be really tricky too because you’re in a room of copywriters who, I mean, even just based on earnings, right, I think my sibling here earning six figures of some amount, you know, you’re in the top, I don’t know what that is, ten, fifteen percent of copywriters like in the world in terms of that. So, you know, it’s it’s it can be just a harsh comparison at times. And also, as you say, Caroline, it’s impossible to know what’s going on inside someone else’s business. Even if everything on the outside looks shiny, even if they charge huge rates, it’s no guarantee of the quality of their work.
I suspect the biggest thing here for you is what you shared at the end there, is that you I’ve forgotten the, exact words and phrases that you used, but, but that you’re someone who oh, no.
Can you remind me? The repetition?
I No?
Oh, my breath bar was never like, the Yes.
Was never high enough. You you feel like it’s never high enough.
Oh, yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you, Naomi.
Thanks.
So can you talk more about that? Do you feel like the bar’s always, like, you’re getting to a point and then it’s like, oh, no. I I’ll only be worthy if I’m here. And is it always like a dangling carrot? Is this what’s happening?
I think it’s kind of like that, you know, when you when you’re little, you think you know everything. And then the more you know, the more you realize you don’t know.
Mhmm.
You realize the less you know.
And, I think it’s that. I mean, I think it’s at a basic level, it’s that.
Mhmm.
But, I do feel like I do wanna try this empty chair technique or just externalizing my imposter syndrome. I can it makes sense to me that that could really work because I think what I’ll hear because when I vocalize like, when I verbalize some of the things that go through my head to my friends, I’m like, that sounds really crazy. Like, I real I hear the the falsehood in it. You know? Like, this is ridiculous.
This doesn’t make any sense. And so I can see how doing something like this would you hear yourself say crazy things, and you’re like and, you know, make things that don’t make sense. You know?
I can see how that would be helpful. Like Yeah. Okay.
Here’s at a you you guys are learning a lot about me.
Okay?
I, I off sometimes, I will have these moments.
I’ll be sitting with a friend, friend that I’ve known for, like, twenty years.
And I’ll I’ll think to myself, wow. Like, I can’t believe this person is my friend. Or, like, I can’t believe this person wants to spend time with me. Like, that is how deep my, like, imposter syndrome goes.
But I know in my head you know, like, the facts belied my thoughts.
The fact you know, I have I have plenty of friends. You know, I have long term friends.
I mean, the facts, you know, show that, like, it doesn’t really my thoughts when I say it out loud, like, it doesn’t make sense because I know, like, if I look at the facts, that can’t be true. So I can see I don’t know.
I think I I think I shared that to explain how, like, how how big the struggle is, you know, because I that’s a very, I do have that feeling even though the facts show otherwise.
So it’s just, like, it’s it’s a big struggle.
But I will try this technique because I can see how it would be helpful. Because like I said, when I verbalize my thoughts, I realize how it sounds.
And then I’m able to, like, think about it more rationally.
And it makes doesn’t make sense.
Well, I wonder too. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think it’s another example in different context of how external validation, so the fact that you have many friends and you’ve had them for all this time, that’s external validation. Right?
It doesn’t do anything internally for you. There’s that disconnect there. So I think it’s just that pattern in another context. And I almost wonder if for you, the entity in that empty chair should be self worth because I feel like that sounds like the thing that’s running through all of this, and that sounds like the thing that might be, like like, right in the center.
Yeah. Thank you for that. Actually, I’ve always known that I’ve had self worth issues, but I never would have put self worth in the chair. I would have put imposter syndrome or inner critic.
Mhmm. Yeah. I just I mean, if you’re if you’re happy to put self worth in there, it it might be quite a deep session, I could imagine. So, you know, maybe prepare yourself for some big emotions, and big emotions are not a bad thing. You know, catharsis is the goal of therapy.
But I I think, what it might help you do is get into that feeling space because I can hear that you are trying to logic your way out of all these things, but there’s a feeling disconnect there.
And I wonder that if that feeling bit gets plugged in, it might actually be a key shift for you into some new sort of momentimal space.
Oops. She might have frozen. Otherwise, she’s holding a very good face.
Hopefully, you heard that, Caroline. But if not, just let me know, and I can I can repeat?
I also I have to say, I’m I’m getting the sense that social media is a big part of this because I think that, and you guys can correct me if I’m wrong, but I I think a lot of the people in this program have been freelance copywriters more than they’ve been in mass copywriters.
And I think that as a freelancer, you’re highly likely to compare yourself with social media with other people in your space on social media. There’s a lot of copywriters on social media. Or I feel like when I compare myself compare myself.
Oh, is this working?
Yeah. You just cut out for a second there, Naomi. You said when I compare myself, and then it stopped.
Oh, when I when I compare myself, I usually compare myself to my former colleagues and the people I worked with and more the people in my community. And so it’s a little bit more limited, and I feel like I’m more than on the same level as them. And I think that social media can give you a really skewed perspective of, of comparison. And we talk about this in, like, in daily life. Right? Like, everyone shows their highlights real on social media, but that’s also true when it comes to a professional world when it comes to LinkedIn, for example. So I think that’s important to keep in mind because that that makes a big difference.
Yeah. Absolutely. You’re right. And it’s so true. You’re seeing the highlights in everyone else’s social media, so it can, become just an unrealistic point of comparison.
I also loved what you shared there about the fact that you tend to think of yourself or compare yourself to people who are in a much tighter, more relevant circle.
And I wonder too if that might be helpful maybe, for you, Andrew, just thinking about you’re not comparing yourself to all other copywriters. It’s more about, trying to find some objective measure of your value. It’s about who’s in your niche, who’s doing what you’re doing. And who also, not just your skill of copywriting, but also your skill of client management or business and all those sorts of things.
It just may be something to think about too because I think we can very easily get caught up in, you know, oh my god, I’m a copywriter. There are like two million other copywriters out there. Like, where do I sit in that scale when it’s really not that relevant? Because I’m never gonna be in competition with a website copywriter, for example.
So, yeah, thanks for sharing, Naomi. I’m sorry. I went off on a bit of a tangent there.
Caroline, I hope you’re okay. That sounds hectic.
Oh, you’re some lightning.
Yeah. I’m totally fine. I just wanted to explain why I completely like, why I suddenly disappeared. I’m I’m back.
You’re alright.
So I missed, you were talking to me when my power went out, so I missed that last part. I’m sorry. I could always go back to the recording if you don’t remember.
No. That’s alright. I think I was just saying, and if I’ve got this wrong, anyone correct me, but I I suspect that if you are able to put self worth, in that empty chair, it may be quite a heavy session, but it also may be a really good way to connect with that more emotional part of you because I feel like so much of what you shared here this morning, you’re up in your head. It’s all these logical reasons why things are or aren’t of value or why they are the way they should be. So maybe to just drop down to that feeling space.
I suspect this exercise could be helpful, yeah, with self work in the chair. I think that’s what I said, but I’m sure I said it better the first time around.
That’s that’s great advice. I will do that. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
My pleasure.
I just wanted to say thank you to Caroline and Andrew for mentioning those details. When you all were talking about your imposter syndrome or self worth and all that, some of the details the two of you said, like, when someone compliments you and it just doesn’t it doesn’t hit you, I was sitting there thinking, oh, that’s so interesting.
I describe, not for my business or for my, you know, copywriting or whatever, I’m not really a comparison person, and that’s an advantage. But, what it made me think about was when you were saying that, I was sitting there thinking, oh, I’m like that with my weight and my fitness and my, like, how I feel about my body. And so anyone, it’s every time. Like, my mom or whomever will say, oh, you know, like, a compliment or something, and I feel like it’s a brick wall.
They’re just throwing a bouncy ball at a brick wall. And I’m sitting there going, okay, And which is terrible when someone gives you a compliment, but it doesn’t it doesn’t resonate. And I so felt that when the two of you were speaking. And I was sitting there, and then it got me to another place where I was sitting there going, that’s it.
Like, that’s the reason why I am not putting myself out there in my business. So it’s really, like, it’s not the imposter I don’t overthink being the best copywriter. I I just I worked after working with Joe, I just kinda sit there and go, well, I can serve somebody. Someone needs copy or something.
You know? So that’s not, like, my thing, but how I feel about me in is getting in the way of all of that business stuff. So I just wanna thank you because it I I didn’t really think about that until the two of you were describing some of your struggles.
Sorry.
Too much of a funny to you.
No. No. That’s funny that you bring it up bring that up this morning. I kid you not.
I was thinking, so why is Jessica hesitating to, like, put herself out there? Like, it didn’t make sense to me because for me, you know, I look at the facts. I feel like you have it pretty well fleshed out. You have a great idea.
You’re passionate about it, and you’re a strong copywriter.
And, yeah, I just couldn’t I was, like, just pondering this morning. I’m, like, wondering why. So There you go. There’s the answer.
Yeah.
Well, that’s to seek out more therapy, I guess.
Or no. Never mind, Kirsty. I will put the I don’t know if it’s self worth. I don’t know what that is. Do you have a label for me?
Worth. I was wondering too, and I don’t know. This could be way off base. Just a feeling. I wonder if there’s and you don’t need to share this. Just an idea for you to mull on elsewhere, unless if you’re comfortable sharing them, please do.
I wonder if there’s a a person or relationship from your past that has influenced your view of yourself. And I wonder if that is part of the, you know, wall up to any sort of compliments and the way you feel about yourself. That may not be the case, but remember that you can also put other people in that chair too if there is someone who might be in your head saying things they said to you in the past or whatever that might be. So, yeah, just to something to tuck away in case it does resonate.
Okay.
Yeah. It I I’m probably afraid because the I know most people would well, not most people, but plenty of people I’ve heard, it’s like a parent or something like that, and I didn’t it’s not one of my parents. I’d I’ll I’d be shocked if some weird memory came up.
But then I kinda sit there and go, well, who if it’s a person, who is that?
Yeah. And it may not be a person, and it could also be some totally random person, the main girl from school. Like, who knows? You know? It doesn’t need to be such a dominant figure, but I feel like sometimes it’s people that have just had such an impact on our self-concept as we’re weaving our way through life that they can in hindsight be quite insignificant, but the imprint they leave on the way we perceive ourselves and the way we interact with the world can be quite significant. So, yeah, don’t don’t feel like it has to be a person, but just in case, you have permission to to put someone in there.
Okay. Thanks.
Alright. I think we’ve got ten minutes left. Any other thoughts? This is such a nice, rich conversation. Thanks for all being so open this morning for this afternoon, wherever you are.
Can we do we have to talk about therapy related mindset issues?
Or, I have a a lead that just came in that was for a website rewrite, and I don’t really do that so much. Mhmm. So I’m interested to hear so it’s a it’s a super, super complicated product. It’s like energy something or other. I can’t even I can’t even tell you. It’s super technical.
And they wanna, like, redo the whole website. They have a sense of what their messaging is, like, sort of general guidelines.
Mhmm. But, it’ll involve a lot of research just to understand what the product does, and it’s twelve pages.
And they’re potentially I think they said they’re going for a c round or they’re going for a series a round. So they wanna polish the website so it’s ready.
So investors take them seriously.
And, they are they don’t have a designer, so they’re gonna get a freelance designer.
And it’ll be they’re potentially open to, like, changing the structure of the page. So I think I’d probably be involved in a lot of those decisions.
Mhmm. And it’s a small company, and they were referred to me by another client. So, I don’t want to I I don’t wanna overcharge them. I wanna charge them something that, something reasonable.
But it it it’s always hard for me to tell how much work a website is gonna be because it’s so central to the companies to the company itself, and there’s so many stakeholders that I feel like I’m always prone to underestimate.
Mhmm.
Yep. My first question for you, because you said it’s not usually the kind of project you do. Just wanted to check, is it something that you do want to take on?
Yeah. Yeah. I’ve definitely done it before. It’s just not the project that comes to me most often.
Okay. Alright. Cool. Just wanted to check. So it’s still sort of in your in your nation, in your way the where you wanna be working?
Yeah. For sure.
Okay. Cool. So, I mean, it does sound like quite a massive project. And as you say, even the research piece alone, to understand a product that’s so technical, is often so time consuming and so involved.
I well, I’m curious as to what others is anyone else working in this sort of niche with these sort of website projects?
Andrew. Yep.
You able to unmute yourself and maybe share some thoughts?
Yeah. I’ve done, like, really big ones like that before. I think the biggest one I’ve done is maybe, like, fifteen to seventeen pages, and, like, it is a lot of work.
And some of the things that I’ve done to help, like, make that more reasonable is for the less important pages to templatize those. So, you know, obviously, like, home page and whatever, you know, whatever the core most important pages are. Ideally, you’re gonna, you know, write them the way that you would write them, you know, without worrying about, like, too many design constraints ideally.
But then for some of the pages, if they’re, like, you know, a handful of, like, you know, feature or service pages or something like that, it could save you a lot of time to if you sort of templatize the way that it goes. So there could be they all have, you know, headline, subhead, image here, you know, certain number of blocks of text, like, that kind of thing because, otherwise, you can spend a lot of time just, like, going down rabbit holes, and all of that, and, like, just trying to always, like, come up with something new and reinventing the wheel over and over. And another thing that I’ve done that’s helped cut down, like, the amount of work.
I I I know that you didn’t ask about the amount of work, but I just can’t help it.
It’s just like, you know Yeah.
For sure.
With the big with the big projects.
Another thing depending on their level of competence of writing, another thing you can do is for those less important pages is you could have them fill out kind of the first draft, so that you can then sort of come in and overhaul it and make them better so that you’re not starting from scratch with all of the pages. Those are a few things I’ve done in the past, to help with that. But I, yeah, like, I I’ve started to actually like, when someone comes by and they wanna do that many pages, I actually started discouraging people from doing that many. I started saying, like, why don’t we bite off, like, five to seven pages and start there?
And I’ll usually say something, you know, about the eighty twenty rule that, you know, five to seven of their pages are doing most of the work. And that’s largely because, like, I don’t wanna discount how much I’m getting per page, and the price tag gets really high with twelve pages.
And for a company that’s, like, trying to get a series a, they might not be ready to throw, like, tens of thousands like, several tens of thousands or a few tens of thousands of dollars at that project.
So I sometimes try to get it a little bit smaller, especially if their budget is capped at, you know, whatever, twenty, twenty five thousand or something like that.
I try to get it down a little bit.
Did did you do you have to provide the unit that?
I have no idea.
Yeah. Okay.
But I I told her I would give her a, like, general price idea on Sunday, and see if that worked with her, but I’m I’m really not sure how to price it all. Like, when you think about it, do you think about it per page? Do you think about it, like, do you ever sell a bank of hours? Like, what is your and, like, what even generally, like, how would you ballpark it?
So I I’ve started to think more per page just because it makes, like, it makes the math easier.
Sometimes I’ll think about it per page plus a certain amount baked in for research. So I’ll think either, like, okay. I need to bake in, like, five thousand dollars per research. And then per page, I’ll think how much do I wanna charge.
The highest that I’ve been able to get, and this is with, like, a very, very technical product, the highest I’ve been able to get is five thousand per page, with a fewer with a smaller number of pages.
And the lowest that I’ve gone in the past couple of year in the past, like, a year well, let’s say in the past year, the lowest I’ve gone is around three thousand, per page. And so that’s kind of why, like, once they get up to twelve pages and you’re like, okay. Am I really gonna like, are they are they really gonna take a thirty six thousand dollar project from me at this stage in their business? That’s where it starts to go.
Okay. Maybe we talk about, you know, making the scope a little bit smaller. But, I mean, we can also talk on on Slack, but there are other ways that you can get creative where you can say, like, okay. We’re gonna we’re gonna work on these five most important pages.
And then for the rest, we’re gonna tackle it sort of, like, some other way. Like, maybe you are doing maybe that’s done, like, on a retainer over the course of a few months, where you’re saying, okay. We’re gonna then work on, you know, two pages per month, after we do this first part of the project.
Or if you wanted to, you could split it up into there being, like, an hours component.
I just generally avoid that for all the reasons, that people talk about, but, like, you can get creative with that and break it up where it’s, like, like, this part of the project has a flat rate. And then after that, we’re gonna, you know, switch into some other form of billing.
Yeah.
Andrew need that. Andrew, quick question.
Yeah.
Do you share your per page rate, or do you key is that an internal cost calculation?
It’s internal, but, like, I’m also I also have, like, with the client like, with my current client, it’s like a retainer of I’m gonna do a certain number of pages per quarter, and here’s the price. So if they wanted to do the math, it’d be pretty easy. But I’ve factored in that, like, you know, I’m doing research as part of that, with each project. I’m just doing a certain amount of research on my own, And, also, and, also, I just told them straight up, like, your product’s really complicated at the trademark.
So, Yeah. I would say that as far as they’re concerned, it’s not per page because because I do make a point of saying, like, you know, I’m doing this extra kind of message finding work, and they see that what I’m doing.
So And, also, you would never charge the same rate for a home page versus a less trafficked or less for a lighter page.
Right?
Use yeah.
Usually, like, if I’m doing something yeah, like, yeah, homepage would typically be a little bit more, and then something like a demo page might be a little bit less.
A what page?
Like a demo page, like, where it’s, like Oh, okay.
Someone signing up for a demo, and it’s usually one, maybe two screens long.
Right. In that plus, I have my demo pages super tough to tell us, so those are, like, crazy PC for me now.
Oh, I like, Naomi oh, sorry.
Go ahead.
No. No. No. I’m done.
Naomi, I think in I like Andrew’s advice. I I think I pretty much agree with everything you said.
One thing to keep in mind in terms of, as you think about how long it’s gonna take you, I’ve learned from experience that home pay at least my in my experience, home pages take fifty to eighty percent of the time total project time. I guess it depends on the full length of, you know, how many pages. But, like, let’s say for a five to six page five to seven page website, and this may be a little bit skewed. And, Andrew, you’ll have maybe you can jump in because I also include design. I have included design in my work. So, but the writing and designing the home page typically typically takes me closer close to eighty percent of the project time, fifty to eighty.
So Yeah.
Yep. Just make sure you factor that in. It does take a lot more time than do I write it then design it?
Homepage Versus just write the homepage as the first page of the project or the last page of the project?
I read it last. I do all the other pages, and then I I come back to the home page. Okay. What do you do?
I take it back then. Same.
I was gonna say it’s gonna save you a ton of time if you do all the other pages first, but, like, it’s not Yeah.
No. I I do the same thing. Yeah. So I do all the other pages and then, you know, and then you think so you get lulled into this false sense of like, oh, I’m almost done. And you’re like, oh my gosh. This homepage took me the same amount of time as it took the last five pages.
You know? Just the amount of work that thought that goes into, the messaging, the hierarchy, and then the design, it just takes that long. So, as you kind of calculate the time, I would factor at least assume that the home page will take at least fifty percent of your time. Would you agree, Andrew Andrew?
That’s interesting. I’m not I’d have to think about that. I’m not sure. There I I agree that there’s always one page that takes way longer than all the others. I just don’t know if it’s always the home page for me.
Oh, maybe you’re fast. I don’t know. I find that very difficult.
I think the home page is the easiest because there’s so little you can say that applies to every But, anyway, sorry.
We’re over time, and I’m taking too much time.
This is such good insight. Thanks for sharing. And I think, Naomi, some some key things to take away from that are that it may be a good case where you could present different options, different tiers of project to the prospect because you don’t know what their budget is. So, you know, in terms of, well, if you just wanna focus on the five key most key pages, this is what it’s gonna cost.
If you want all twelve pages, like, it’s gonna be a big project, this is what it’s gonna cost. And I think also, given all the moving parts and the fact that they’re gonna hire a designer in, I also think something else that’s gonna be really key for you is having really clear boundaries when you sell the project about what your role will be and your interaction with that designer and all those sorts of things because I feel like otherwise it could be one of those projects that just keeps stretching, and you get beyond the part where you’re actually getting paid well for the hours that you’re putting in.
So I would just say those two things to maybe wrap that up.
But, Andrew, it sounds like you’re a wealth of knowledge on this.
So, Naomi, I’m Andrew, I’m assuming you’re okay if Naomi wants to reach out to you in Slack after this and have that.
Absolutely. And I have other thoughts too.
About things to to to check for before you before you get too far. And I’ve got to put yeah.
So does that sound good, Naomi? Thanks.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s super helpful.
So Yeah.
I appreciate it. This gives me a much clearer sense of of what to do, and I think that, I think they’re they’re going for a series a, though. They’re gonna wanna wrap the project up pretty quickly. There’s a there’s a clear deadline baked into the project.
Yep.
So guys. So we’re just over time, so I’ll have to wrap things up there. Thank you so much for coming along this morning. Thank you so much for being so open.
I’m in Slack, so please feel free to ping me whenever. I love working with you guys. I love coaching things through, so don’t be shy.
And, yeah, I’ll catch you in there, and I’ll also see you on Zoom again next month.
Thank you, Christie. Bye. Appreciate it.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
As you probably know from, what Sarah shares, the workshop well, let’s take a bit of time example, I just never been on stage because I’m just such a shy person. I’m such a shy person. That statement there, the unsoci a shy person is then very much making themselves a problem. So if you’re working with neurodifinib in that context to help them slowly externalize Now I think the one caveat with this approach is that, obviously, that kind of process, can take a little while.
Obviously, there’s a therapist or someone else in the room. So this morning, we’re going to borrow a technique from the this technique is also often used not just for, influential people in the client’s life, but also for parts of themselves. So, for example, going back to that shift as I did I shared before, you could invite a client with that presenting issue to put their shyness in the chair so that they could start to help separate it from themselves, and get a really clear picture of what that shyness looks like, what flares it up, what can help calm it down, when it’s more likely to show up, and what it’s actually trying to achieve.
So this is just some context we’re about to dive into. Hopefully, that makes sense. And, hopefully, as I go through this, it will make more and more sense. But if not, please let me know.
I am so happy to explain these things in a different ways. So let me share my screen so, I can have the worksheet up as I talk. And, obviously, you guys should all have a copy of this, but feel free to just watch on my screen if that is easier. Sorry.
My head’s in the way. Okay.
Believing that if we can just quiet that voice, we’ll be able to do the thing that’s trying to get in the way of. And I find time and time again with this, it is so surprising how much of the heat is taken out of the imposter syndrome simply by giving it space free and inviting it to take the floor. So invite it into that chair, ask it to start the conversation. You know?
Okay. What do you want me to know? Why are you showing up today? What is it you’re trying to do?
And then, of course, So, basically, yeah, inviting it to tell you why it’s showing up, you know, what it’s feeling, what it’s thinking, what it wants you to know. And, again, I suspect that a lot of the time you’ll be surprised that the root cause of the imposter syndrome and all that mindset muck that it’s throwing up for you is on some level that it’s trying to protect you. Right? Protect you from failure.
Protect you from overexposure. Protect you from something else. But unfortunately, they tend to have a really shitty way going about this protective thing. But, again, if you are able to get to a point where that becomes obvious, you can also shift the relationship that you have with the imposter syndrome because you may go from a place or painting it Now important for me to note here that I don’t mean that you’ll do this once and then magically you’ll never have to deal with elements of your imposter syndrome again.
Certainly, the more often you do this, the less of a hold your imposter syndrome will have over your own reactions, but, you know, for the first, you know, one, two, three times, it’s enough to just shift the dynamic between you and it in that moment for that current challenge.
Now, again, this usually takes about ten, maybe fifteen minutes. I know it could probably seem like a lot of people have been profier. And also still, again, it probably seems like a very strange exercise. After you have got to a point where you feel like there is some level of insight or some shift in that dynamic, it’s really important to reflect.
Of course, this is usually the role of the therapist or the up? What was surprising? What do I know now that I didn’t previously? So, again, building this growing awareness of your imposter syndrome, how it functions, when it’s more likely to show up, what really flares it up, what you can do to calm or settle it, how you can actually work with sometimes, quite a time, they can park with their imposter syndrome and work towards some really cool things.
Again, because it’s such a difficult process, there’s no right or wrong, far. I would love to know if there are any questions, if anything didn’t make sense, any initial thoughts or responses. And then after that, we can wrap it up for general question.
I have a question.
Yeah. Of course.
So imposter syndrome is not something that I personally that personally bothers me a lot, but I think it’s a cool exercise.
I’ve looked at my suggestions for other, other pain points, other, obstacles, limitations that you think or maybe in the past where you found that clients really struggle with. Because I was trying to think of some, and I’m, like, come immediately to mind. So I was wondering if you have any other suggestions, that this exercise might be good for.
You know, that maybe tends to be towards perfectionism. There’s some examples from clients that worked recently, so they don’t resonate, leave them behind. It might be, some forms of fear, for example. It could also be you could also use this technique too if you have a really problematic client and you are feeling that a project you’re working on is not going well, if something is just, you know, really not working, it could actually be a good way to have a conversation, with someone who is then really challenging with you without actually having to have a conversation or before having a conversation. So you could try and get some perspective on where they might be coming from, what might be happening Thanks, Jeremy. Thank you.
Any other questions on this couple comments?
I named mine. It wasn’t for this.
It wasn’t for, like, I totally agree.
Ninety can really just help make it a phone entity and make it separate from you. And did you find I’m so curious. Did you find that after you’ve made an end that it was more easy easier to sort of call it up and address it as separate from you?
I think it took I mean, it took a little practice in general, but I came by this by myself. It was actually because I was seeking out therapy for another kind of Ed and, the therapists were terrible. So I found this, and then people had said that they called theirs ed. And so I think after I got used to calling it that and actually speaking, I think it it did eventually.
It was just it didn’t come natural course at first, but I don’t know what does. So but I do really I did start, I do tend to say things like, well, I’m a bad person. Why would if you’re a smart enough person, why would you struggle with this? So if you have a half a brain, why would you struggle with this?
And it did help with naming it and then recognizing other things, like, I had created, I don’t know I don’t know if this applies maybe for I don’t think it does, but I started realizing that Ed was kind of, have you ever seen, like, a a dog or a goat or something in a field where it does the same path over and over again? It creates you know what I’m talking about?
So I started realizing that Ed was doing that in my brain with this stuff. And so if I let him do that, those net path was just gonna get harder and harder to, you know, like, let grass grow or something else.
And I don’t know.
So it’s something like connecting the fact that Ed was like my dog running in my yard, and now I don’t have grass in certain parts. If I could think of my brain that way with these negative behaviors, somehow that helped with sorry. Hi. Which is realizing that, okay. Every time I, kind of let him take control, then that that path is getting deeper and deeper and, harder to, I don’t know, let anything else live there with us. And somehow that that connection for me worked. I don’t know if that helps anyone.
But.
It’s like you don’t wanna struggle, but you’re not taking that crappy advice.
So that’s something.
I think. Alright. Anything else for anyone on this before we go?
I’ll go. I don’t know if my hand is showing.
I’m sorry. It’s right. I just hand. Yes. My little Lego hand.
Yeah, something that I sort of struggle with. Yeah. I’m sort of blending imposter syndrome and, inner critic together for for the sake of this exercise.
But I I think something that I kinda struggle with is, like, a lot of times that inner critic, it seems to be very accurate or it’s like it at least appears that it’s being, like, reasonable and objective. And I sometimes have a hard time separating what is, you know, just kind of unhelpful mental chatter versus what is actually alerting me to something, you know for example, like, I’m reading, you know, ten x’s season two x right now. He talks about your, you know, your finding your unique ability. And so, you know, just for, like, an example, like, like, I I don’t think I’m, like, really that good at copywriting, honestly.
Like, I don’t think I’m, like, that great at it.
And there’s a part of me that, like, feels like, you know, like, obviously, that’s relative. Right? Like, I’m better than my clients are. That’s for sure.
But, like, you know, I’m also exposed to a community of people where there’s really, really, really good copywriters. And there’s a part of me that’s, like, how much of this is kind of, like, unhelpful mental chatter that’s just making me feel bad about myself? And how much of this could be something where it’s, like, maybe this isn’t my unique ability. Maybe what I, you know, should be doing is, like, you know, something adjacent to this or something next to this, and and that’s not, like, the thing for me.
So I guess and I think part of the answer if I it’s not part of the answer is that I think you can partner with their imposter or complex or whatever it is. And it’s like, you know, I think that I think that that’s kind of what I’m trying to do here is try to look at it and say, like, okay. Are you helping me or are you not helping me?
Can you help me?
So, yeah, I guess the question is how do you sort of tease apart what is unnecessary mental chatter versus, maybe some, like, honest self feedback?
Mhmm.
Thoughts and thoughts and feelings. Right? And, like, you’ll you’ll get your fame and get it saying, and you might find, okay, maybe that is actually some truth to it. I suspect the line in terms of what is a maybe useful insight versus what is unhelpful mental chatter comes down to how much you feel what you’re hearing inside your own head is creating a roadblock. So it’s stopping you from taking whatever mood you wanna make. Because it could be, like as you say, maybe, and I don’t know, I haven’t seen your copy, but I’m actually gonna make some of the That’s right.
Then it’s okay. But if it’s something that or something that like, if a friend told you that, then you wouldn’t be friends with that person, then that’s probably a good sign that it’s too harsh. And that always helps me.
Yeah. For sure.
I I definitely it’s something that reminds me of, like, a technique that I’ve definitely heard of before where you have to, like like, talk to yourself as you would a friend and you realize that you would never talk to a friend before you talk to yourself.
Yeah. No. That’s helpful, though. Appreciate it.
And, Andrea, if you’re open to it, you know, feel free to share any of these, like, thoughts, worries, or concerns in Slack as you go, because I feel like it would be helpful as well to have some outside perspective on, like, if this like, guys, this is what my brain’s telling me. Does this sound like in critical or what does this sound like something that can be really relatable? Like, where is this going on the spectrum?
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I’ll I’ll do that. Yeah. It’s sometimes, like, it happens every once in a while where someone’s like, really?
Like, you you get anxious or, like, you have, like, my head. I was like, what am I doing that communicates? And I’m, like, super confident and everything. That’s definitely not a case at all.
Definitely, like, a mess half the time for sure. So, yeah, I’ll I’ll try to be more more open in the mindset.
Yeah. No. Appreciate it. Thank you. No worries. Alright. Anyone else? Any coaching questions, requests?
I feel like Caroline’s oh, did I call her? Yeah. Are you going right off there? I saw it in your face.
No. I have a I have a thought, but I’m not quite sure if it’s a question or, like, where the question lies.
So it was something that, Kirsty, you said, you know, you, invited Andrew to share, some of his thoughts with the group in Slack.
And, I don’t know.
Like, does that help you, Andrew, when somebody says, oh, no. You’re actually a really great copywriter. You’re amazing. Does that sink in for you?
And the reason I ask is my fear of being a fraud runs so deep that unless I believe it, I don’t really it doesn’t matter what anybody says to me. So external validation doesn’t really mean the same mean that much to me. So if I say I’m struggling with this or I feel like, you know, I speak out loud those negative thoughts, like, oh, I think I’m not a good copywriter or I’m not x y z, and somebody said, no. No.
No. You really are.
My next thought is, well, of course, you’ll say that because you’re my friend. Or I I discount the compliment, the praise that comes from somebody else.
Unless I believe it, it doesn’t really impact me.
And yeah.
And and I don’t know if this is if this fits together. Like, is this a personality thing? But I gain confidence from repetition and proving myself to myself.
So I don’t know. Is there I don’t know really where I don’t know if there’s a question in there. It was just a thought that came to mind when Andrew when you asked Andrew to share in Slack because my immediate thought was, well, that wouldn’t help me if somebody validated me.
Or Yeah.
Sure. And sorry to clarify, Andrew, I wasn’t saying for you to share things so that we could all jump on and give you compliments necessarily. Oh, yeah. I know. Help you try and find the line between, like, you know, what does this seem like? Does this seem like a useful insight that I should be paying attention to? Or does this seem like some trash talk that’s getting in the way of things?
Because I’ve I think you were totally clear.
I think that that’s just where my mind went because I was like, oh, I don’t know. My mind just jumped there. I think you were totally clear.
Oh, no. I understand. Every chance I was not.
I I understood that, but I also I mean but, Caroline, I I agree. Like, I mean, maybe if it was Jo, like, because I feel like Jo would give me, like, the the truth. Like, I feel like she would give me honest feedback. But for the most part, like anyone else, I probably wouldn’t take it all that seriously.
Like, I agree with you. It’s more about, like, what do I think? And and for me, I don’t know if you’re like this too, Caroline, but, like, for me, it’s like the what the part of me that I think is driving a lot of this is, like, a desire for, like, objectivity and accuracy about it. I don’t want to think of myself as better than I am. I don’t wanna think of myself as worse than I am. I wanna know objectively where I stand, and I think that’s, I think that’s what drives a lot of benefit.
And I think what makes it harder, what distorts that, our ability to assess that is that there are lots of people out there that sound like they’re great, but, it may not be based on truth.
And so you’re trying to filter you’re trying to figure out what the truth is when some you know, there is some false truths out there.
I don’t know. Yeah. I I totally I I think I what you said resonates with me and the challenge that I have. So I have this, like, mental, tug of war in my head because I know I mean, I’ve lived long enough to know that not everybody who sounds, like, you know, says sounds great is really that great.
You know, there are lots of copywriters out there that may not may have less experience than me, but are charging more.
And they sound great on LinkedIn or Instagram.
But, yeah, and so in my head, I’m like, intellectually, I know that, but it is hard for me to translate that into, like, self confidence.
Mhmm.
Like, I have to feel like I have to convince myself that I’m, like, good enough for me, I guess. I don’t but I but that thing, that, like, bar is so it’s, I don’t know. You really can’t it’s not clear where that bar is. So I think I always feel like I’m never good enough.
I never yeah.
This is such a rich conversation. I feel there are so many things here. So first of all, yes, I think that it’s it’s impossible to base your self worth on external validation.
You’re just gonna build an empty castle that way, right? It’s gonna crumble at the the smallest hiccup. You know? If someone then says, oh, that was you didn’t perform well. That was a bad project, and it’s all down under you. I think a good coach, and I think all the coaches inside of this program, will not be here to compliment you, but to help you step up to the plate and do the things that let you prove to yourself that you’re in the right spot, that you’re doing the right work, that you have value.
Because I think that’s the difference, right? It’s enabling you to take on those opportunities where you can amass that proof for yourself and you can start to build that story out for yourself so that you know internally you’re validated, which is just infinitely more powerful than any external validation anyone could give you. Even Joe, who you’re right Andrew would definitely tell it like it is.
I also think too it’s probably worth noting that in a program like this, you know, it can also that comparisonitis can be really tricky too because you’re in a room of copywriters who, I mean, even just based on earnings, right, I think my sibling here earning six figures of some amount, you know, you’re in the top, I don’t know what that is, ten, fifteen percent of copywriters like in the world in terms of that. So, you know, it’s it’s it can be just a harsh comparison at times. And also, as you say, Caroline, it’s impossible to know what’s going on inside someone else’s business. Even if everything on the outside looks shiny, even if they charge huge rates, it’s no guarantee of the quality of their work.
I suspect the biggest thing here for you is what you shared at the end there, is that you I’ve forgotten the, exact words and phrases that you used, but, but that you’re someone who oh, no.
Can you remind me? The repetition?
I No?
Oh, my breath bar was never like, the Yes.
Was never high enough. You you feel like it’s never high enough.
Oh, yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you, Naomi.
Thanks.
So can you talk more about that? Do you feel like the bar’s always, like, you’re getting to a point and then it’s like, oh, no. I I’ll only be worthy if I’m here. And is it always like a dangling carrot? Is this what’s happening?
I think it’s kind of like that, you know, when you when you’re little, you think you know everything. And then the more you know, the more you realize you don’t know.
Mhmm.
You realize the less you know.
And, I think it’s that. I mean, I think it’s at a basic level, it’s that.
Mhmm.
But, I do feel like I do wanna try this empty chair technique or just externalizing my imposter syndrome. I can it makes sense to me that that could really work because I think what I’ll hear because when I vocalize like, when I verbalize some of the things that go through my head to my friends, I’m like, that sounds really crazy. Like, I real I hear the the falsehood in it. You know? Like, this is ridiculous.
This doesn’t make any sense. And so I can see how doing something like this would you hear yourself say crazy things, and you’re like and, you know, make things that don’t make sense. You know?
I can see how that would be helpful. Like Yeah. Okay.
Here’s at a you you guys are learning a lot about me.
Okay?
I, I off sometimes, I will have these moments.
I’ll be sitting with a friend, friend that I’ve known for, like, twenty years.
And I’ll I’ll think to myself, wow. Like, I can’t believe this person is my friend. Or, like, I can’t believe this person wants to spend time with me. Like, that is how deep my, like, imposter syndrome goes.
But I know in my head you know, like, the facts belied my thoughts.
The fact you know, I have I have plenty of friends. You know, I have long term friends.
I mean, the facts, you know, show that, like, it doesn’t really my thoughts when I say it out loud, like, it doesn’t make sense because I know, like, if I look at the facts, that can’t be true. So I can see I don’t know.
I think I I think I shared that to explain how, like, how how big the struggle is, you know, because I that’s a very, I do have that feeling even though the facts show otherwise.
So it’s just, like, it’s it’s a big struggle.
But I will try this technique because I can see how it would be helpful. Because like I said, when I verbalize my thoughts, I realize how it sounds.
And then I’m able to, like, think about it more rationally.
And it makes doesn’t make sense.
Well, I wonder too. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think it’s another example in different context of how external validation, so the fact that you have many friends and you’ve had them for all this time, that’s external validation. Right?
It doesn’t do anything internally for you. There’s that disconnect there. So I think it’s just that pattern in another context. And I almost wonder if for you, the entity in that empty chair should be self worth because I feel like that sounds like the thing that’s running through all of this, and that sounds like the thing that might be, like like, right in the center.
Yeah. Thank you for that. Actually, I’ve always known that I’ve had self worth issues, but I never would have put self worth in the chair. I would have put imposter syndrome or inner critic.
Mhmm. Yeah. I just I mean, if you’re if you’re happy to put self worth in there, it it might be quite a deep session, I could imagine. So, you know, maybe prepare yourself for some big emotions, and big emotions are not a bad thing. You know, catharsis is the goal of therapy.
But I I think, what it might help you do is get into that feeling space because I can hear that you are trying to logic your way out of all these things, but there’s a feeling disconnect there.
And I wonder that if that feeling bit gets plugged in, it might actually be a key shift for you into some new sort of momentimal space.
Oops. She might have frozen. Otherwise, she’s holding a very good face.
Hopefully, you heard that, Caroline. But if not, just let me know, and I can I can repeat?
I also I have to say, I’m I’m getting the sense that social media is a big part of this because I think that, and you guys can correct me if I’m wrong, but I I think a lot of the people in this program have been freelance copywriters more than they’ve been in mass copywriters.
And I think that as a freelancer, you’re highly likely to compare yourself with social media with other people in your space on social media. There’s a lot of copywriters on social media. Or I feel like when I compare myself compare myself.
Oh, is this working?
Yeah. You just cut out for a second there, Naomi. You said when I compare myself, and then it stopped.
Oh, when I when I compare myself, I usually compare myself to my former colleagues and the people I worked with and more the people in my community. And so it’s a little bit more limited, and I feel like I’m more than on the same level as them. And I think that social media can give you a really skewed perspective of, of comparison. And we talk about this in, like, in daily life. Right? Like, everyone shows their highlights real on social media, but that’s also true when it comes to a professional world when it comes to LinkedIn, for example. So I think that’s important to keep in mind because that that makes a big difference.
Yeah. Absolutely. You’re right. And it’s so true. You’re seeing the highlights in everyone else’s social media, so it can, become just an unrealistic point of comparison.
I also loved what you shared there about the fact that you tend to think of yourself or compare yourself to people who are in a much tighter, more relevant circle.
And I wonder too if that might be helpful maybe, for you, Andrew, just thinking about you’re not comparing yourself to all other copywriters. It’s more about, trying to find some objective measure of your value. It’s about who’s in your niche, who’s doing what you’re doing. And who also, not just your skill of copywriting, but also your skill of client management or business and all those sorts of things.
It just may be something to think about too because I think we can very easily get caught up in, you know, oh my god, I’m a copywriter. There are like two million other copywriters out there. Like, where do I sit in that scale when it’s really not that relevant? Because I’m never gonna be in competition with a website copywriter, for example.
So, yeah, thanks for sharing, Naomi. I’m sorry. I went off on a bit of a tangent there.
Caroline, I hope you’re okay. That sounds hectic.
Oh, you’re some lightning.
Yeah. I’m totally fine. I just wanted to explain why I completely like, why I suddenly disappeared. I’m I’m back.
You’re alright.
So I missed, you were talking to me when my power went out, so I missed that last part. I’m sorry. I could always go back to the recording if you don’t remember.
No. That’s alright. I think I was just saying, and if I’ve got this wrong, anyone correct me, but I I suspect that if you are able to put self worth, in that empty chair, it may be quite a heavy session, but it also may be a really good way to connect with that more emotional part of you because I feel like so much of what you shared here this morning, you’re up in your head. It’s all these logical reasons why things are or aren’t of value or why they are the way they should be. So maybe to just drop down to that feeling space.
I suspect this exercise could be helpful, yeah, with self work in the chair. I think that’s what I said, but I’m sure I said it better the first time around.
That’s that’s great advice. I will do that. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
My pleasure.
I just wanted to say thank you to Caroline and Andrew for mentioning those details. When you all were talking about your imposter syndrome or self worth and all that, some of the details the two of you said, like, when someone compliments you and it just doesn’t it doesn’t hit you, I was sitting there thinking, oh, that’s so interesting.
I describe, not for my business or for my, you know, copywriting or whatever, I’m not really a comparison person, and that’s an advantage. But, what it made me think about was when you were saying that, I was sitting there thinking, oh, I’m like that with my weight and my fitness and my, like, how I feel about my body. And so anyone, it’s every time. Like, my mom or whomever will say, oh, you know, like, a compliment or something, and I feel like it’s a brick wall.
They’re just throwing a bouncy ball at a brick wall. And I’m sitting there going, okay, And which is terrible when someone gives you a compliment, but it doesn’t it doesn’t resonate. And I so felt that when the two of you were speaking. And I was sitting there, and then it got me to another place where I was sitting there going, that’s it.
Like, that’s the reason why I am not putting myself out there in my business. So it’s really, like, it’s not the imposter I don’t overthink being the best copywriter. I I just I worked after working with Joe, I just kinda sit there and go, well, I can serve somebody. Someone needs copy or something.
You know? So that’s not, like, my thing, but how I feel about me in is getting in the way of all of that business stuff. So I just wanna thank you because it I I didn’t really think about that until the two of you were describing some of your struggles.
Sorry.
Too much of a funny to you.
No. No. That’s funny that you bring it up bring that up this morning. I kid you not.
I was thinking, so why is Jessica hesitating to, like, put herself out there? Like, it didn’t make sense to me because for me, you know, I look at the facts. I feel like you have it pretty well fleshed out. You have a great idea.
You’re passionate about it, and you’re a strong copywriter.
And, yeah, I just couldn’t I was, like, just pondering this morning. I’m, like, wondering why. So There you go. There’s the answer.
Yeah.
Well, that’s to seek out more therapy, I guess.
Or no. Never mind, Kirsty. I will put the I don’t know if it’s self worth. I don’t know what that is. Do you have a label for me?
Worth. I was wondering too, and I don’t know. This could be way off base. Just a feeling. I wonder if there’s and you don’t need to share this. Just an idea for you to mull on elsewhere, unless if you’re comfortable sharing them, please do.
I wonder if there’s a a person or relationship from your past that has influenced your view of yourself. And I wonder if that is part of the, you know, wall up to any sort of compliments and the way you feel about yourself. That may not be the case, but remember that you can also put other people in that chair too if there is someone who might be in your head saying things they said to you in the past or whatever that might be. So, yeah, just to something to tuck away in case it does resonate.
Okay.
Yeah. It I I’m probably afraid because the I know most people would well, not most people, but plenty of people I’ve heard, it’s like a parent or something like that, and I didn’t it’s not one of my parents. I’d I’ll I’d be shocked if some weird memory came up.
But then I kinda sit there and go, well, who if it’s a person, who is that?
Yeah. And it may not be a person, and it could also be some totally random person, the main girl from school. Like, who knows? You know? It doesn’t need to be such a dominant figure, but I feel like sometimes it’s people that have just had such an impact on our self-concept as we’re weaving our way through life that they can in hindsight be quite insignificant, but the imprint they leave on the way we perceive ourselves and the way we interact with the world can be quite significant. So, yeah, don’t don’t feel like it has to be a person, but just in case, you have permission to to put someone in there.
Okay. Thanks.
Alright. I think we’ve got ten minutes left. Any other thoughts? This is such a nice, rich conversation. Thanks for all being so open this morning for this afternoon, wherever you are.
Can we do we have to talk about therapy related mindset issues?
Or, I have a a lead that just came in that was for a website rewrite, and I don’t really do that so much. Mhmm. So I’m interested to hear so it’s a it’s a super, super complicated product. It’s like energy something or other. I can’t even I can’t even tell you. It’s super technical.
And they wanna, like, redo the whole website. They have a sense of what their messaging is, like, sort of general guidelines.
Mhmm. But, it’ll involve a lot of research just to understand what the product does, and it’s twelve pages.
And they’re potentially I think they said they’re going for a c round or they’re going for a series a round. So they wanna polish the website so it’s ready.
So investors take them seriously.
And, they are they don’t have a designer, so they’re gonna get a freelance designer.
And it’ll be they’re potentially open to, like, changing the structure of the page. So I think I’d probably be involved in a lot of those decisions.
Mhmm. And it’s a small company, and they were referred to me by another client. So, I don’t want to I I don’t wanna overcharge them. I wanna charge them something that, something reasonable.
But it it it’s always hard for me to tell how much work a website is gonna be because it’s so central to the companies to the company itself, and there’s so many stakeholders that I feel like I’m always prone to underestimate.
Mhmm.
Yep. My first question for you, because you said it’s not usually the kind of project you do. Just wanted to check, is it something that you do want to take on?
Yeah. Yeah. I’ve definitely done it before. It’s just not the project that comes to me most often.
Okay. Alright. Cool. Just wanted to check. So it’s still sort of in your in your nation, in your way the where you wanna be working?
Yeah. For sure.
Okay. Cool. So, I mean, it does sound like quite a massive project. And as you say, even the research piece alone, to understand a product that’s so technical, is often so time consuming and so involved.
I well, I’m curious as to what others is anyone else working in this sort of niche with these sort of website projects?
Andrew. Yep.
You able to unmute yourself and maybe share some thoughts?
Yeah. I’ve done, like, really big ones like that before. I think the biggest one I’ve done is maybe, like, fifteen to seventeen pages, and, like, it is a lot of work.
And some of the things that I’ve done to help, like, make that more reasonable is for the less important pages to templatize those. So, you know, obviously, like, home page and whatever, you know, whatever the core most important pages are. Ideally, you’re gonna, you know, write them the way that you would write them, you know, without worrying about, like, too many design constraints ideally.
But then for some of the pages, if they’re, like, you know, a handful of, like, you know, feature or service pages or something like that, it could save you a lot of time to if you sort of templatize the way that it goes. So there could be they all have, you know, headline, subhead, image here, you know, certain number of blocks of text, like, that kind of thing because, otherwise, you can spend a lot of time just, like, going down rabbit holes, and all of that, and, like, just trying to always, like, come up with something new and reinventing the wheel over and over. And another thing that I’ve done that’s helped cut down, like, the amount of work.
I I I know that you didn’t ask about the amount of work, but I just can’t help it.
It’s just like, you know Yeah.
For sure.
With the big with the big projects.
Another thing depending on their level of competence of writing, another thing you can do is for those less important pages is you could have them fill out kind of the first draft, so that you can then sort of come in and overhaul it and make them better so that you’re not starting from scratch with all of the pages. Those are a few things I’ve done in the past, to help with that. But I, yeah, like, I I’ve started to actually like, when someone comes by and they wanna do that many pages, I actually started discouraging people from doing that many. I started saying, like, why don’t we bite off, like, five to seven pages and start there?
And I’ll usually say something, you know, about the eighty twenty rule that, you know, five to seven of their pages are doing most of the work. And that’s largely because, like, I don’t wanna discount how much I’m getting per page, and the price tag gets really high with twelve pages.
And for a company that’s, like, trying to get a series a, they might not be ready to throw, like, tens of thousands like, several tens of thousands or a few tens of thousands of dollars at that project.
So I sometimes try to get it a little bit smaller, especially if their budget is capped at, you know, whatever, twenty, twenty five thousand or something like that.
I try to get it down a little bit.
Did did you do you have to provide the unit that?
I have no idea.
Yeah. Okay.
But I I told her I would give her a, like, general price idea on Sunday, and see if that worked with her, but I’m I’m really not sure how to price it all. Like, when you think about it, do you think about it per page? Do you think about it, like, do you ever sell a bank of hours? Like, what is your and, like, what even generally, like, how would you ballpark it?
So I I’ve started to think more per page just because it makes, like, it makes the math easier.
Sometimes I’ll think about it per page plus a certain amount baked in for research. So I’ll think either, like, okay. I need to bake in, like, five thousand dollars per research. And then per page, I’ll think how much do I wanna charge.
The highest that I’ve been able to get, and this is with, like, a very, very technical product, the highest I’ve been able to get is five thousand per page, with a fewer with a smaller number of pages.
And the lowest that I’ve gone in the past couple of year in the past, like, a year well, let’s say in the past year, the lowest I’ve gone is around three thousand, per page. And so that’s kind of why, like, once they get up to twelve pages and you’re like, okay. Am I really gonna like, are they are they really gonna take a thirty six thousand dollar project from me at this stage in their business? That’s where it starts to go.
Okay. Maybe we talk about, you know, making the scope a little bit smaller. But, I mean, we can also talk on on Slack, but there are other ways that you can get creative where you can say, like, okay. We’re gonna we’re gonna work on these five most important pages.
And then for the rest, we’re gonna tackle it sort of, like, some other way. Like, maybe you are doing maybe that’s done, like, on a retainer over the course of a few months, where you’re saying, okay. We’re gonna then work on, you know, two pages per month, after we do this first part of the project.
Or if you wanted to, you could split it up into there being, like, an hours component.
I just generally avoid that for all the reasons, that people talk about, but, like, you can get creative with that and break it up where it’s, like, like, this part of the project has a flat rate. And then after that, we’re gonna, you know, switch into some other form of billing.
Yeah.
Andrew need that. Andrew, quick question.
Yeah.
Do you share your per page rate, or do you key is that an internal cost calculation?
It’s internal, but, like, I’m also I also have, like, with the client like, with my current client, it’s like a retainer of I’m gonna do a certain number of pages per quarter, and here’s the price. So if they wanted to do the math, it’d be pretty easy. But I’ve factored in that, like, you know, I’m doing research as part of that, with each project. I’m just doing a certain amount of research on my own, And, also, and, also, I just told them straight up, like, your product’s really complicated at the trademark.
So, Yeah. I would say that as far as they’re concerned, it’s not per page because because I do make a point of saying, like, you know, I’m doing this extra kind of message finding work, and they see that what I’m doing.
So And, also, you would never charge the same rate for a home page versus a less trafficked or less for a lighter page.
Right?
Use yeah.
Usually, like, if I’m doing something yeah, like, yeah, homepage would typically be a little bit more, and then something like a demo page might be a little bit less.
A what page?
Like a demo page, like, where it’s, like Oh, okay.
Someone signing up for a demo, and it’s usually one, maybe two screens long.
Right. In that plus, I have my demo pages super tough to tell us, so those are, like, crazy PC for me now.
Oh, I like, Naomi oh, sorry.
Go ahead.
No. No. No. I’m done.
Naomi, I think in I like Andrew’s advice. I I think I pretty much agree with everything you said.
One thing to keep in mind in terms of, as you think about how long it’s gonna take you, I’ve learned from experience that home pay at least my in my experience, home pages take fifty to eighty percent of the time total project time. I guess it depends on the full length of, you know, how many pages. But, like, let’s say for a five to six page five to seven page website, and this may be a little bit skewed. And, Andrew, you’ll have maybe you can jump in because I also include design. I have included design in my work. So, but the writing and designing the home page typically typically takes me closer close to eighty percent of the project time, fifty to eighty.
So Yeah.
Yep. Just make sure you factor that in. It does take a lot more time than do I write it then design it?
Homepage Versus just write the homepage as the first page of the project or the last page of the project?
I read it last. I do all the other pages, and then I I come back to the home page. Okay. What do you do?
I take it back then. Same.
I was gonna say it’s gonna save you a ton of time if you do all the other pages first, but, like, it’s not Yeah.
No. I I do the same thing. Yeah. So I do all the other pages and then, you know, and then you think so you get lulled into this false sense of like, oh, I’m almost done. And you’re like, oh my gosh. This homepage took me the same amount of time as it took the last five pages.
You know? Just the amount of work that thought that goes into, the messaging, the hierarchy, and then the design, it just takes that long. So, as you kind of calculate the time, I would factor at least assume that the home page will take at least fifty percent of your time. Would you agree, Andrew Andrew?
That’s interesting. I’m not I’d have to think about that. I’m not sure. There I I agree that there’s always one page that takes way longer than all the others. I just don’t know if it’s always the home page for me.
Oh, maybe you’re fast. I don’t know. I find that very difficult.
I think the home page is the easiest because there’s so little you can say that applies to every But, anyway, sorry.
We’re over time, and I’m taking too much time.
This is such good insight. Thanks for sharing. And I think, Naomi, some some key things to take away from that are that it may be a good case where you could present different options, different tiers of project to the prospect because you don’t know what their budget is. So, you know, in terms of, well, if you just wanna focus on the five key most key pages, this is what it’s gonna cost.
If you want all twelve pages, like, it’s gonna be a big project, this is what it’s gonna cost. And I think also, given all the moving parts and the fact that they’re gonna hire a designer in, I also think something else that’s gonna be really key for you is having really clear boundaries when you sell the project about what your role will be and your interaction with that designer and all those sorts of things because I feel like otherwise it could be one of those projects that just keeps stretching, and you get beyond the part where you’re actually getting paid well for the hours that you’re putting in.
So I would just say those two things to maybe wrap that up.
But, Andrew, it sounds like you’re a wealth of knowledge on this.
So, Naomi, I’m Andrew, I’m assuming you’re okay if Naomi wants to reach out to you in Slack after this and have that.
Absolutely. And I have other thoughts too.
About things to to to check for before you before you get too far. And I’ve got to put yeah.
So does that sound good, Naomi? Thanks.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s super helpful.
So Yeah.
I appreciate it. This gives me a much clearer sense of of what to do, and I think that, I think they’re they’re going for a series a, though. They’re gonna wanna wrap the project up pretty quickly. There’s a there’s a clear deadline baked into the project.
Yep.
So guys. So we’re just over time, so I’ll have to wrap things up there. Thank you so much for coming along this morning. Thank you so much for being so open.
I’m in Slack, so please feel free to ping me whenever. I love working with you guys. I love coaching things through, so don’t be shy.
And, yeah, I’ll catch you in there, and I’ll also see you on Zoom again next month.
Thank you, Christie. Bye. Appreciate it.
Thinking Bigger: Setting Bigger Goals for Your Business
Thinking Big
Transcript
We can jump straight in and get going this morning.
As you know, today’s session is designed to get you guys to think bigger when it comes to setting and getting goals for your business. And as you hopefully also know, if you’ve seen my comment in Slack, the session today, I’m gonna run a little bit differently. We’re just going to jump straight on in and actually do the thing. Because I’ve been reflecting on my previous sessions, and I feel like they haven’t quite been landing, as much as I wanted to.
So no theory. Not showing you how to do something later, we’re gonna go straight ahead and do the thing right now. So if you haven’t already, could you please open your worksheet for this session and have it either on your screen or on your desktop, whatever works for you. No shame if you’re old school paper.
I am often that person too.
Now if you go straight to, the top of the second page, so, the page with the first set of prompts and things for you, you’ll see that right up top, the first thing that is there is a fill in the blank style prompt, which says and sorry my face will be looking sideways because I will be also looking at my, computer with the non working sound. It says if insert your biz biggest robot or limitation was no issue, I had insert action and or outcome.
So obviously I’d like you to fill this in.
In terms of your biggest roadblock or limitation, that may be something that’s quite global in your business, So for example, something like time or capacity, or it could be something that’s quite specific to the business that you’re trying to work towards and trying to build here in CSP. So for example, if you are someone who is trying to shift from making the majority of your revenue via one to one client services to someone who makes majority of their revenue through selling, online programs or products, then it might be that your current limitation is you have a slow list growth.
So think what that is for you. I imagine for most people, it will be quite easy to identify that key challenge. It’s that thing that you keep coming up against.
And you may notice it in different patterns. It might have been the same thing for the last, you know, six months, twelve months, two years.
So identify that one, is anyone having trouble pinpointing that challenge?
Nope.
Abby’s a strong no. I love it.
Okay. Cool. And then the second part of that prompt, I would love you to put in, like, something quite wild, so don’t place any value judgments on what this sort of big action or outcome would be. But just think, like, in this hypothetical scenario, if that challenge didn’t exist, if it wasn’t there, What would you actually do then? What would you have in your business?
I’ll give you a minute to think that one through because I often find that this can be the piece of the puzzle, but can take a little bit longer to sort of pinpoint.
But again, you know, don’t filter it, don’t judge it based on all. That’s not really possible. We’re just talking hypotheticals here. So again, if that biggest roadblock was not there in your business, what would you then achieve? What would you do What would be the outcome?
Okay. Has everybody got something in that first box? Yeah, Abby.
Jessica Nicole Naomi, Caroline. Caroline, how are you guys going? Thumbs up from Naomi?
Jessica. How are you going there?
Abbie you’re supposed to be on Vauxer answering my question because I was like, I don’t wanna present to the whole group, but I will.
You don’t have to share if you don’t want to.
Well, no.
No.
No. It’s fine. It’s more because I need the help.
I have a list to things that I feel like could be my biggest roadblock.
So I think Abby, you talk to me every day. Well, what’s what’s yours? What do you think mine is?
I know what mine is. Mine is.
I know what yours is. I think I know it’s cool.
Yeah. Not raising not raising my rates. I don’t know what your biggest roadblock is though.
I think Thank you.
Okay.
I think one of them is is self doubt because you think you’ll wanna do something and then half, I think you’ll be like, oh, maybe I should be doing this. Maybe I, like, maybe I should have gone down this route and you’ll wanna change. So I think it’s indecisiveness, but I think it comes from self doubt.
Yeah.
I agree with you. That’s what I had. Fear of failing the self doubt thing. Okay. Thank you. That helps.
Awesome. Love this.
So good. K. Is that clarified the second part of that, thing for you, Jessica? Awesome.
And Caroline, how are you tracking there? You can pop something in the chat if you don’t wanna show your noggin secrets.
Yeah. I think Caroline I don’t know if you had access, but I think she might be with her family. In a car. So she said she may not be able to interact so that yeah.
I don’t know if you can see that or not, but No.
Sorry. Because I left, I thought maybe if I, Oh, there she is.
Yep.
Yeah. If my fear of something like fraud or self doubt was no issue, I’ve had my business change and charge a lot more. Okay. Cool. Awesome Caroline. And, hey, Katie, I see you’ve just joined us just to catch up. We’re just working our way through that first prompt in the worksheet.
It should be pretty self explanatory.
So you’re just popping in there what your biggest current roadblock in your business is the thing that keeps getting in the way of you hitting your goals, and then also what you would do or achieve in your business if that thing was no issue. And again, we’re just thinking hypotheticals here. So we’re just trying to broaden that perspective by knocking out that big challenge that always gets caught up and trapped.
And no worries that you were late. I also my audio didn’t work, so I’m a few minutes like getting started too. So not a problem.
Okay. Alright. We’re gonna roll through to the next, section of the worksheet pretty quickly, because the speed is actually part of this exercise.
So if you just, look beneath, where you’ve just put that first statement, you’ll see there is a table with ten different slots that says ways to bridge the gap from here to there. Now, again, I just want you to think about this hypothetically. So, any way that you could actually problem solve, and you could do the thing that you’ve just written down, Even if it, you know, that, like, not, like, that’s not gonna work for me, I want you to avoid placing any judgments on these ideas. If it would theoretically get you from a to b, I want it In that box, and the aim of the game here, success for this talk looks like filling in as many possibilities of that box as you can, even if some, ludicrous ideas or things that would not work for you.
So as an example, if I was doing this exercise right now, my biggest challenge with two very young kids’ capacity, and the thing that I would do if that was no issue would be selling to live with three half day rates a week. Every week because that would bring me about, I think, four hundred k, just from that one, offer every year.
And ways that I could possibly bridge that gap.
For example, I could deliver those day rates at night, when I know my husband’s here and he can be point person for the kids, I could hire a subcontractor.
I could look at some sort of agency model. I could build some sort of AI that could write like me to speed things up. So I’m just spitballing ideas, and as you can see, they’re sort of all, really, they’re very possible, and I’m not feeling during in terms of how suitable they might be for me. So I’ll give you guys five minutes to fill in as many of those ten slots as you can. If you have any questions or you get stuck, just give me a yell.
Oh, sorry, Carla. I just saw your question. Suggestions on how to bridge the gap when the issue is self doubt.
Yeah. Good question.
So I think when we’re looking at what your design outcome is Caroline. You promote your business and charge a lot more.
So we’re looking at ways to bridge the gap from what you’re doing in your business now to what that outcome is that you would actually do. So, for example, we’re just saying that if that self doubt wasn’t there, So if that wasn’t there, what kind of things would you do? Can you imagine pitching yourself for, various in person events to to speak on stage? Could you imagine, just setting your rates a lot higher and going after those clients who you know that could actually afford that investment?
Does that make sense? So we’re problem solving from how you could get from where you are now to where you identify that you would like to be in that first goal. And again, we’re just assuming that that self doubt isn’t an issue. Okay. Cool.
Alright, guys.
We’ll leave it there. How many possible ways to get from a to b did people get? Feel free to yell out or to just pop a number in the chat.
Eleven.
Oh, who’s that eleven then? Me over at Seadema. I love it. What about you, Naomi? How’d you go?
About seven.
That’s awesome, Katie?
I had trouble deciding which problem was my biggest problem. So I have eight solutions each, but I was wondering if you had any tips on, like, which to focus on.
Mhmm. Yep. Do you wanna talk us through the options that you have for what the biggest problem is at the moment?
Yeah. So when I just brained down to like, okay, problems, it was like, capacity, audience size, overwhelmed, like, not knowing where to go next, and not feeling really confident that I have, like, like, impressive client results to point people to that are recent.
So the three that I wrote about were capacity, audience size, and results, and I have, like, six to eight solutions for each of those, but it’s kind of like a meta problem, but I’m like not knowing which problem is the biggest one is, like, part of one of, like, an additional problem.
Probably part of the overwhelm, I guess. Yeah.
So I guess when you think about those three separate things that you did identify and, put possible ideas down for, Which feels like the one that you’re really bugging your head up against the most?
Or the one that’s really stifling you or stopping you from, like, making changes in the growth that you want to?
Well, I I the three that I wrote were capacity, audience size, and no results, but I feel like the overwhelm is the one that’s really stopping me because I keep starting different projects and getting them to, like, sixty percent and then failing on them to go work on a different thing because I can’t decide which which is gonna be the the one that makes the most difference.
Okay. Yep. So then it sounds like overwhelm might actually be the biggest challenge, and that perhaps these other three things are subsets, all of that. Challenge because if you’re not following through on a on a, you know, project or a lead gen system, for example, the way through, then that could be impacting.
You know, the list size and those kinds of things. Does that sound right? Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So sorry. It sound like the one that you didn’t put.
I do four might be the one that you need to work on.
So feel free to, take a few minutes and then something sound for that. Yeah.
Well, I think I think too, the solutions for the overwhelm, like, the ones the solutions that I wrote could also help with the overwhelm one, two.
Yep. And I just wanna check with, with overwhelm as the key challenge, does that also help you articulate a really clear, like outcome or action that you would take, if that was no issue, if the overwhelm wasn’t.
Part of the equation at the moment?
I mean, I feel like if it’s like if overwhelm was no issue, then I would know which steps to take and which projects to tackle in which order.
Mhmm.
Yep. Do you have, I guess, a vision of what that would actually look like in your business? So, like, something that’s a bit further down the lines that if you doing that. If you had real clarity on, you know, everyone wasn’t there, so you knew what you were focusing on next, you’d finish those tasks, you’d be building something like where is that getting you? What’s that?
Further down the line, gold will collect.
It looks like being able to delegate because things are organized enough to bring another person in and being able to invest in support because I know what the task is, and I know what the desired outcome is. And then also having the, like, the systems that I’m building actually make it to a hundred percent, and then they start working for me.
Yes. Cool. Okay. So I feel like those are probably the more useful outcome to think about because they are obviously definitely a result of that feeling and have been able to prioritize tasks, but then more concrete things to be able to work towards. So been able to you know, delegate, automate, eliminate might be something like that or being able to outsource appropriately so that you have the space to do the court work.
There might be a goal somewhere in there that feels like it gets home for you, obviously use your own words.
Thank you, No worries.
Jessica, how’d you go with the table and the list of possible problem solving ideas?
Oh, yeah. I got about seven as well.
So Awesome.
That is amazing. And Caroline, I know you’re in the car, so feel free to just pop something in the chat if you would like. A number of how many you got to, and I’ll just keep an eye on that for you.
Seats. Amazing. That’s so good, guys. That is awesome.
So what you’ve just done is you have taken a hypothetical lens to, you know, what if, like, what could I do in my business if this thing wasn’t actually an issue. And when we approach goal setting from this angle, what it does, it allows you to identify what you actually want without those limiting beliefs getting in the way. Because you’re not doing the thing that we all do where you say, oh, yeah, but that wouldn’t work me because, or Oh, yeah, but that’s like a goal for, like, three years from now. So what you actually have in that table or in that list of possible ways to get from where you are now to where you’ve identified you would like to be, are possible routes to take.
Now some of those I’m sure will be absolutely terrible ideas for you and your business and how you like to work, and that’s totally okay. So if there are any in that list where you look at and you’re like, like that, theoretically could work, but I know that that’s just not ever gonna work in practice for me. Feel free to cross those out.
What I would love you to do is identify one of those that feels like the best fit. And it’s really important that when I say feels like the best fit, that doesn’t mean that you’re gonna look at it and not feel any discomfort because growth requires discomfort and there is a natural tension between what you want and what you need to do to get it. So, again, just reiterating that the best fit idea in your list there probably isn’t gonna be something that you feel one hundred percent confident with, but I’m just asking you to identify the one that feels like it fits you and how you work and your business and what you wanna build the best. So I’ll give you a minute or two to do that, and if you have any questions, oh, I don’t know what the balloons are going on.
Alright. And there we go.
Sorry. I never zoom on my phone, so here we are learning new things by accident.
Okay. Questions as you’re identifying that one, let me know. And once you have identified the best fit one, if you could just pop it in the chat, that would be awesome.
Bedtime, Abby?
Yeah.
It’s like five seven, but I’m so sleepy for some reason.
But it’s tiredness, not boredom. I promise. Sorry. It’s enjoying it.
It’s often me because I’m in Australia, like, on Paul’s father group programs and masterminds I’ve been part of. It’s often a ridiculous time for me, so I know that I know the feeling.
Naomi limit the number of clients to five and raise them in a monthly investment to three k. Awesome. This culture. I’m try I’m trying to reverse engineer what your, key challenges or limitations must be. And it’s quite interesting to see this. Awesome.
Katie, book a one to one coaching session to get ideas out of my head and verbally process what I’m stuck on. Amazing.
Hey, guys. These are really awesome. These are really clear and concise and totally achievable.
This is so great.
Are you going, Jessica? Do you need some help?
Maybe.
It’s the self doubt thing, which that if I was able to do I think that’s where I’m I’m I focus more on how to overcome the self doubt get to the thing on the other side of that. But I think the thing on the other side of that, the outcome I’d like is two seasonal sale campaigns a month around ten thousand dollars with clients that I like, and that I could use for further you know, books and promotion and things like that.
Awesome.
Does that seem in alignment though?
Yeah. Totally. Because I think your self doubt wasn’t an issue, then that’s probably what you’d be doing because you wouldn’t be scared about pitching those people or lending those projects.
Okay. Or to the green results. Okay. And, yeah, in in Fabi, I mean, it’s green too.
No. Yeah. Your because you’re self doubt, I think this comes from feeling like you don’t have the experience that you want to have. So I I feel like as soon as you start getting leads and doing projects, your confidence is just gonna go up and you’re not gonna put up with that self doubt, like, be because yeah.
I think I have the same a similar thing to Katie where it’s been so long since I’ve done seasonal sales.
It just feels like I’m too far away from it. So, yeah, I get yeah. Okay. Thank you.
Mhmm. And I think one of the, Cool, but also annoying things about self doubt is that there’s that little gap you have to bridge often in that you have to do the same. To solve the doubt.
It’s a catch twenty two and it sucks, but really it is the best way to get through it.
Cool. So with that in mind, Jessica, maybe I don’t know if you need to maybe write down some different, possibilities or different ways there, or we could you identify those now? What what would work best for you?
I’m quick just typing in if I can look to seasonal sale campaigns a month at ten k each.
Mhmm. Yep.
That would be kind of thing.
Okay. Awesome.
Amazing.
And again, Carla, I know you’re driving, so I won’t order in the car. So I won’t invest you, but if you do wanna share, feel free.
Okay. Guys, this is so good. So as you’ll see, the next box, which I deliberately left quite, vague in terms of heading, because, I mean, I feel like you already knew this, but I didn’t wanna make it super clear. I’m now going to ask you to actually take this hypothetical idea and it concrete and break it out into steps.
Because, of course, I think this is also where we can get lost when we are trying to make movement towards our big goals is that we have, you know, the end goal in mind, but we don’t know where to start. We don’t know what to do for the second, third, fourth, or fifth to do that thing.
So these things that you have written in the chat here, if you’re looking to actually do that, like what are the steps to actually make that a reality? What do you have to do? And I’d say this could be depending on how your brain works, a bit of a messy process in terms of actually writing things down and ordering them. So don’t worry too much if put something down and then realize, oh, that’s actually like step number four.
You know, this is your worksheet or your space wherever you’re working in. So you can edit. You can doodle. You can move things around.
It can it can be messy.
The important thing is to get it out on paper.
And I know that can also be the part where things can feel tricky and sticky and some of those mindset gremlins can come up. So please, as you are going through this, let me know what’s happening. Let me know where you’re getting stuck, whether it is a practical thing or a mindset thing, and I would love to coach you through it.
Can I ask Christie, like, I feel I feel like maybe I jumped ahead a step? Like, the thing that I put in the chat was the concrete step that I could take. So am I supposed to look like the goal is know what to do when I’m gonna do it and what that thing entails.
Mhmm.
So now it steps to get there.
Yes. Actually, yeah. You’re right. Sorry. Yes. So your this is this is great first step I feel because you can do that theoretically today.
Right? You could. Yeah. Book a one to one session with someone. And then I guess, you know, after that and after you have that information on paper, then what happens next?
Is it then are you maybe looking to hire someone to set up anything that has been identified as being able to be systematized or automated, is it perhaps interviewing VAs or OBMs, like, what are the steps in there that you see reaching to that goal? And thank you for bringing it up because, yes, you’re totally right. That’s a one step thing that you’ve got in the chat.
So What I’m identifying is the thing that I want that my big problem is stopping me from happening.
That’s right. So I think you’ve already identified that, and now you’re talking about, so if there’s a way to solve that problem. So perhaps it’s perhaps you need to go back to the section before this one and think about, like, okay, like, one way to solve that problem would be to outsource everything or to hire a system specialist.
Or it might be to, like, hire someone else. So so I think, yeah, maybe it’s about going back to that table before and looking at those because I think, yes, what you have here looks like the first step for you to get in clarity.
Into how things are sitting and where you can make them easier and less overwhelming and more streamlined. Does that sound right?
Yep. Yeah. It’s all just kind of clicked into place while you were talking. It’s okay. Thank you. Okay.
Awesome.
Alright. Is anyone stuck either on the practical step or is anyone feeling the kind of resistance that makes them think they won’t actually follow through on the things that are in front of them?
So I’m struggling with a lot of my clients are I I have very personal relationships with them because I work in a very small ecosystem.
And so some of them I started I only really started working on full time, like last May.
And most of my clients are either friends of friends or friends of old colleagues, or there’s like no more than like two degrees of two, three degrees of separation between me and most of the people in my ecosystem, which is good, but I not sure how easy it’ll be for me to either fire clients that are not working out or raise rates that are way below what I’m charging now because these are people that I’m gonna see in person pretty often, and I have to make Sure.
Got you. That can be tricky definitely because you’ve got dual relationships there, client, and also some sort of social relationship.
Would, raising the price of your services, would that, effectively fire some clients for you, like are some of your forfeit clients who won’t be able to afford this new price.
Well, some of it is just like, it’s a little bit of work here and there. But it’s not really worth doing the work because it’s just taking away time, every email, every call. It’s just is just draining my time. So I’m wondering also if it’s if it’s worth it at all, if it’s just a few hours a week, I, I, I’m not sure. I’m not sure if they would be, if they would be scared away.
Or they would think, it’s probably not worth it. We’ll just do it in house.
Mhmm.
Yep. Okay. I was only asking because somewhat sometimes that can be easy way out. When you outgrow a client, and then you raise your rates, it can be you can know sometimes. Like that person, then we’re gonna say yes, this is actually my problem for me. I think in the case where it sounds like you’re saying that you may or may not, but you definitely have some clients in mind who feel like they’re not a good it for where you actually want to take and grow your business.
Remember that the reasons that you have and you know and you’re telling yourself for wanting to get rid of them, you don’t have to pass those on to those clients. There are other ways to let them know about the decision. So, it could be, again, thinking that you obviously wanna try and preserve some of the relationship because you’re probably gonna bump into them socially and as things so intermingled for you, simply telling them, hey, the way I’m doing business is changing.
Here’s what’s happening, and I know that historically haven’t worked together this way. And I will be really sad to see you go, but, you know, this is what’s next for me. So there can be a way of, like, just letting them know quite kindly, quite politely without sort of going into the details of perhaps why they themselves are not a fit, and therefore making it personal.
Will it be uncomfortable, probably? I think a lot of conversations that we have in business are, but think you don’t want to sacrifice your business success, you know, for the sake of potentially a few awkward conversations.
So Yeah. I’m actually saying it probably will be uncomfortable, but I think you’re absolutely right. If it’s bits and pieces work, if it’s clients that really don’t fit the vision you have for where your business is going, and they don’t support that, either in terms of money or the work that you’re wanting to do, then it is time to let go of them and time to make space for those who do. Anything else? On Naomi, do you wanna talk about that a bit more?
Does it make sense to get rid to let them go before I take on new clients or just buy new clients and then let them go.
Mhmm.
I feel like it always makes sense to let go of some of them before in order to make space.
Even though that’s scary, and I know, you know, financially as well, it can be daunting to see blank space in your calendar.
But I think most of us in this room can probably attest to the fact that if you hang on to clients.
It’s if you don’t create space or ideal clients to come into, then it sort of drags on and on and on, and, you know, you’ll be six months down the track before you actually make the change. So lightify under your own bum, I would say, by getting rid of these clients making space, for people who actually are a good fit. And reach out in slack when you’re doing it too if you want to because I think sometimes even just having, like, the support of people who’ve been there, who’ve done it before while you’re actually doing the scary thing can be really helpful, and can just make you make that move even when it is uncomfortable.
Amazing. Do you guys are legends?
Alright.
So we’ll move on to the last, piece of the worksheet, and then I think we’ll have a few minutes too to just open up discussion on whatever you’d like. But you’ll see the last thing there is a table, with good space for good, better, best goals.
So I think chances are you probably already identified your best goal in that initial statement that we did at the top of the worksheet.
It may not be, but I think nine times out of ten, that’s probably your ideal outcome.
So thinking through then how to set other goals so that this isn’t a next size that is so black and white and you either hit that goal or you fail miserably, what are good and better goals? So a good goal is basically your baseline level of success, which might look quite different to your best goal, but is still absolutely a really positive shift and a positive growth for your business in this direction that you’re moving in.
A better goal is typically somewhere between the good and the best goals. So it’s something that you can feel really chucked about, you know, this this move and this strategy has been more than successful, even though it might not have keep the heights of your, like, ideal, like, best world scenario outcome.
And the reason that these are important is that Again, it gets you out of that black and white thinking where sometimes we normally set big goals for our business and we’re working towards them. If we get point, we realized they’re not gonna happen to the extent in which we were setting out to achieve. We can get disheartened and we can give up. If we have these goals that allow us a little bit more flex, and allow us to actually benchmark our success at different levels. It is often more motivating and just gives us, something better to reach towards And also, I find when you do hit the good goal, you can often get a boost of motivation to keep reaching out for that better and then that best goal too.
Ideally, of course, these goals should be measurable in some way.
So even if they are a feeling goal, which is totally okay, by the way, if one of the goals is that you feel less overwhelmed.
Just think about what that actually looks like and how that could actually be measured. So for example, that would be, you know, it means that I get to switch my laptop off at five thirty PM every day and not worry about you know, what I’ve got on the next morning. It could be something like that. So something that you can actually measure as opposed to just, like, feel less stress because I think without the specificity there, it’s gonna be a very hard goal for you to actually reflect on and work out. Yep. That’s what’s happened or no. I’m not quite there yet.
Katie.
Well, hey, maybe that is one of your goals though.
Maybe sure to Alice, who knows? But I know there’s works.
Sometimes I feel like you’re working fully hours and then sometimes Fifty months the opposite.
It’s the day care pickup. Is it three thirty? So, like, I could happily work till seven, but I just don’t there’s no space.
Yes. Well, I feel that very much too.
Katie, I know. It’s a season. I keep telling myself that. I’m like, there will eventually be more time in our days where little people don’t need us to do all the things.
Yeah. I feel like I don’t know about you, but I do feel one good side effect of motherboards is that my efficiency rates have gone through the roof. It’s like when I have time that I can use, I use that time.
I’m on the opposite side. Mine is gone. Yeah. I kinda wish I had that limitation right now.
I have too much time. So Either way, you’re gonna have a problem. It’s either you don’t have enough or you have too much and you gotta figure it out. It’s kinda like money.
You either have too much or too little. And no matter what you’re pun penalized for one of them. So yeah. I didn’t join the little kid.
I take my little kid back anytime.
Back to the five year old, I’d take her again. She was fine.
Twenty one is fine, but That’s such good perspective, Jessica.
Thank you for sharing.
You’re welcome. Enjoy them while they’re little. Yeah.
Hey, guys. Anyone struggling with the good, better, best goals? Anyone unsure on how or when to try and measure their progress against them?
I feel like you’re also so so compliant this session. It makes me a bit nervous that maybe haven’t set goals in a big enough.
So I remember this should feel uncomfortable. Like, it should feel exciting, but it should also feel uncomfortable as you’re reaching for these things because growth Just by definition does require discomfort. And as I mentioned earlier, there will be that tension whether it’s now when you’re actually doing the thing between what you want and what you need to do to get it. I really would love for you at those points in the process to reach out in Slack and say, hey, this is what’s coming up for me.
How do I deal or, like, can you just normalize this? Whatever whatever you need because, you know, you’re in CSP for a reason. I think you’re all ready to do big bold bad ass things in your business, but you’re also human. So I think you’re going to fault it in that journey from time to time as we all do.
So it’s normal, but reach out. I’m here. The other coaches are here, and we’re really just we want you guys to kick huge goals and do amazing things.
Alright. Pep talk over.
Any questions on any of this stuff or anything related to mindset business, copywriting.
Oh, that’s yeah.
Oh, you go.
Have a good one.
No. You don’t. You don’t.
Well, actually it was something Abby and I have discussed before, so I was just curious, Kirsty, what your thoughts were. So as I’m, you know, I So I don’t know if I have told you, but I used to run seasonal sales for over it’s ever been a lot of them, but it was a couple years ago when I was working for a company full time. And as I’m kind of thinking about this launching the package a signature offer of seasonal sale campaigns.
And I’m kind of struggling with the how to launch it, but then also, you know, Abby and I’ve heard Joe say either if you want case studies and stuff, do it for free or make the really high ticket price, you know. And so that’s kind of made me hesitate with putting it in a middle ground price range. So that’s why I said ten k because that’s a little bit bigger. But I don’t know. I’m just curious about your thoughts around any of that with launching this signature offer.
I haven’t had any people keep coming to me for email, which is great. I’m not complaining, but it’s not this. And I’m just kind of sitting there going, okay, practicing is a really important part of the positioning.
Well, do you have any recommendations or thoughts?
Yeah. Sure. I think, I mean, obviously Joe is a genius. I think probably what she says goes.
I think if ten K feels like it is that little bit uncomfortable, I think it’s probably the right price to set it up. I always find that if too comfortable with the price, then I feel like the price is too low. So I think that is the right price. I think it’s sent about how you position that and how you make sure the clients really see the value in that investment.
They see the ROI, and they have the desire for this amazing service.
So in terms of launching, do you have access to your ideal clients, like on an email list or similar, or will you be pitching people directly else he’s gonna go?
So as I’ve come back in about, I kinda let my business go dormant for a while. And the people on my business on my email list before were people who sought me out for, and funnels and all of that kind of stuff. So they were not e commerce and not, well, no, they were a couple e commerce, but, not not an alignment with this offer at all. So I’m basically starting again with a zero audience, so then that’s another thing that comes up on my list of need to build audience with this ideal, you know.
Yeah. So, no. I other than cold or warm pitching that kind of stuff, I don’t have a list with the ideal customer.
Okay. Cool. So, I mean, in that case, because you don’t have ready access to your ideal client, I would probably suggest offering to do one of this service for free or for a very low investment so that you can get the social proof. Because I think if you’re going to be doing outreach and you’re going to be warm pitching to people, it’s just going to increase the likelihood of getting a yes so much if you can say, hey, and I did this with this company in this business, and here are the results they got.
Because if you’re a relatively unknown person to your ideal client, you know, you really, I think, do need the proof and the value of what you do.
So I think and also, obviously, pitching people with the offer of something at a really low price because you’re wanting to use their their project as a case study or even for free, like, that is a much easier yes for a company. So that’s what I would do one hundred percent if I was in your shoes.
Great. Perfect. Thank you so much. My worries.
Abby.
Can I can I ask a follow-up question on behalf of Jesse?
Because Jessica, like, because you do have social proof and, like, you are gonna get that testimonial from Joe. Like, you have testimonials.
Do you really need to do? Like, do really two on free? Cause I know that Jessica, like, one needs the leads now and needs to get these projects in, like, what when when is social proof enough?
Like, does That’s a question.
Right? I don’t have social proof on this particular offer, the way it is. I could reach out to the former client and see how much permission I could get to share what I did for them.
Their marketers I bet Christina knows a couple of them, and I’m not a hundred percent certain they will let me or what. But I didn’t sign anything, but yeah, Yeah.
Does it have to be, like, for your specific offer? Or can it I mean, your offer is comprised of, like, copywriting and strategy, and you have testimonials that demonstrate you do strategy and copywriting very well.
I don’t know. I just don’t want because you said your goal is to booked to seasonal cell campaigns at ten k each, and doing one for free isn’t that gonna, like, slow that down? And I’m not, like, trying to argue with your advice see. I’m just more like because I know I know that Jessica wants, like, pay projects. So I’m just kind of, I don’t know.
I I would worry.
I I don’t know exactly what company is you’re working for. But if I’m thinking of hiring somebody who wants to do something for free, my thinking might go to why are they free? Like, does that mean they’re not worth the value?
Like, that would almost be a red flag in my mind, depend like, coming from more of an established company, Like, I I wanna pay somebody the fair rate, especially if it’s not my money. It’s the company’s money. Like, and I’m just, like, hiring a vendor. Like, For me, that would be a red flag. So, like, maybe they’re maybe they’re bad at what they do. That’s why they’re not charging what they’re worth.
Would agree with that Naomi. I think my red flag would go off as well. If I think when Kirsty said that when I’ve heard Joe say it, the one thought I did have his I do have a couple of contacts in my network who I’ve done work for, not in the seasonal sale capacity.
That I could see if I framed it under the guise of, I’d really love to use this in case studies, my future book, And, so obviously I wanna get you results and I’d like it to be mutually beneficial.
I feel like they might be a little more open and less fewer red flags going off in that, but but it’s also based off the fact that I have a relationship with them. But I see your point because I would say the same exact thing, especially if it were a cold itch or something like that. Yeah.
Katie just put in the chat what about doing it for ten k, adding a guarantee?
I think that’s a good idea. Like, literally, like, our homoze style guarantee, like, all your money back if it doesn’t perform.
Okay. Yeah. That’s a great idea because I think with all these things, what you’re trying to do is remove risk for the person who’s going to say yes to the project. Right?
One way to do that is to say, hey, there’s no risk for you because I’m gonna do it all for free and I’m gonna get e awesome results, but you’re part of the agreement, and I’m gonna hold you to this is that I wanna use this as a case study. So I need that from which I think is different offering to do something for free without you getting anything back. To me, that’s a red flag. If someone’s like, I just wanna offer to do it for free.
I just wanna go to some expertise. It’s like, no, thank you. But if you’re, like, really clear about why, what the exchange is, because you’re still getting something really valuable out of it, But, also, I love this idea of a guarantee, Katie, because that does the same thing effectively. You can say, here’s my rate.
But because it will be the first time I’m doing this precise service, then here’s here’s how we can go about the financial exchange, because I think that also just facilitates that. Yes. And what you really need is someone to say yes to this new offering from you so that you have the proof and you have the confidence to sell this more easily down back and you can get to that two seasonal sale campaigns every month as quick as possible.
In terms of the software, if you do have, I think when you are trying to prove a beta offer, which it sounds like this new service is because you haven’t actually rolled it out yet as, you know, as one complete package.
There are definitely bits of social proof that you can use like Abby’s talking about, so anything that proves your knowledge, your expertise, what you’ll like to work with as a service provider, all of that’s really relevant. Also, anything that proves, that you know your shit when it comes to seasonal sales campaigns. So if you could get something like that from Joe, for example, or from a previous client, anything of that will be helpful.
It’s about how you bring that proof together to build a picture that again removes or reduces risk for the person that you’re putting that service in front of.
Does that help? Wait.
Yeah. It does.
Didn’t you do this in house?
I I did do it in house, but I don’t I don’t know if so not in this offer. When it’s a really different offer, it is very much a different offer.
I did do a seasonal sale, but they were a company where it was like, a lot of last minute or, there’s a lot more components to my seasonal sale campaign than there was back then when I was literally just optimizing a sales page, writing the emails, writing the SMS, writing the ads.
There’s That was kind of the basic skeleton, and I’m I’m adding a lot to that.
I think you’re being too hard on yourself. I think you can talk to all of that work. I think this is I I think you’re being really nitpicky.
No. No. I’m I’m being sarcastic. Yes.
That that’s I’m a former teacher, maybe.
I mean, of course, I’m being nitpicky.
Like, I don’t I don’t really know what you mean by seasonal sales, to be perfectly honest with you because I’m in a very different industry, but like Yeah.
Years doesn’t do them very often.
No. No. But like it sounds like it sounds like you know a lot more about what you’re talking about. But you just don’t realize how much, you know, what you’re doing.
He does.
Thank you.
You can’t you can’t read the label from inside the jar.
Yeah.
I’m loving this guys. I mean, I feel like Abby obviously knows you really well in terms of you guys obviously connect quite a lot you know, outside of the the calls, the group calls that we have. So that’s awesome. And Naomi obviously knows your work as well. So, I mean, maybe what we’re dealing with here is actually just yourself doubt. And not a question of tactical approach.
Well, the good news is I broke down self doubt on the work sheet so we’ve selected correctly today. Hey. Hello.
Like, I’ve worked with people who, like, don’t know how to conjugate verbs properly, and they get promoted.
You know, like, I feel like your standards are just way too high.
Is there a lot of people who work in content and copy who just like don’t really know basic English, and make it by. So, like, you’re probably a lot further a lot than you think you are.
If I can conjugate a verb, we’re gonna set that as the standard from now on. Sounds good.
And Jessica, if you like, like, if you wanna plunk, like, a lot of the social proof that you do have in Slack, like, I would love to workshop that with you into something that could really help support this offer for you. Such a proof is like my my thing for copywriting. So feel free. Ping me. I’ll do it.
Alright. Thank you. I have sales page work to do, so that helps. Thank you.
Awesome.
And, Abby, I know you had a question. We can, if everyone’s happy to stay for two also, if you need to go, go. But if you wanna ask a question, Abby, then we can jump on in and then end things up.
Thank you. Yeah. I just wanted to ask your, be expected as someone who’s run a podcast.
Because part of mine is to, like, are gonna get on better high quality podcasts if you had any just like tips or insights into what you look for when someone sent you a pitch.
Yeah. Sure.
So interestingly, so the podcast that I run with Amy, business about Asuri, we always approach the guests that we wanna come on. We we don’t actually ever say yes to any pictures, but also we don’t get that many from people we know, which I think is the key thing, like, but you’d always random automated ones from people’s PR agencies, which we just delete straight away.
But I think having pitched a lot of podcasts as well, and like, I think when you do picture podcast, the key thing that you need to answer for the person you’re pitching is what does this person have?
For my audience? What do they have to offer my audience? Because their main goal is to get more listeners, get more subscribers, be a podcast that people talk about and share. So if you can give them an insight into how you’re gonna help them hit all their goals for their podcast, you’re more likely to be a yes for the pitch.
So, you know, I think as well, like, if you can avoid the quite templatized format of a typical podcast pitch, like, hi, name. I love your podcast, and they’re like talking about yourself. And then let me know something like that. Obviously, avoid that.
I think the more specific you can be, like, if you do actually listen to their podcasts, like, which episode have you loved? Like, which guest be loved, which conversation have you loved, and why?
Because I think even something like that from the beginning can show that you have to engage with the podcast, you haven’t just searched, you know, top copywriting podcasts, which I have.
Yeah. And one one follow-up question. So because the podcast I want to speak on offer course creators.
And I should I be concerned about stepping on their toes? Because a lot of them have offers evergreen offers or, like, courses to to serve their audience, and it’s they’ll be similar to my offer. So I guess, turn to y’all to start? Is that something that I should be concerned about, like, going in?
Or So I think that’s probably a call that they will each make.
As to whether they’re like, oh, is this person potentially gonna take business away from me, or are they gonna add to the conversation around this idea or this approach?
So I wouldn’t be worried about it if I was you. I think that’s only in their court to make that full.
And you could try, you know, finding that you’re pitching people who you are technically in competition with and you keep getting nose, you could even try mixing up the pitch, and you could even maybe acknowledge, like, hey, I know that you your business is built on a similar offer or something like that. I would love to talk have this conversation with you because, and you could communicate how it’s actually gonna be quite cool to have this conversation from two different perspectives.
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah. So test and refine, I think, is a general rule for everything when it comes to business.
Yep. Okay. Thank you very much. It does helpful.
My pleasure.
Christie, can you just say the question again that you said we should be answering in our podcast pitch?
Like, what does this person So how how is my presence on the podcast going to help this person’s podcast be more successful?
So how’s it gonna help them get more listens? It gonna help me get more subscribes? How’s it gonna help them get more shareable content? So basically, how are you gonna serve the goals that they have for their podcast?
Perfect. Thank you.
Think I said it differently the first time around, but that’s approximate.
Alright, guys. Thank you so much for coming along. Sorry again. The snafu at the start. I don’t know what was happening with my computer. Anyway, almost happens at six AM.
Please keep me posted in Slack, ping me with any questions, any help, anytime you get stuck. I wanna see you keep these big goals. I wanna see you make progress towards them, I wanna see you do the thing, and I wanna just hold your feet to the fire, I guess, over the next over the next few months is these steps unfold.
Alright.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Bye.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
We can jump straight in and get going this morning.
As you know, today’s session is designed to get you guys to think bigger when it comes to setting and getting goals for your business. And as you hopefully also know, if you’ve seen my comment in Slack, the session today, I’m gonna run a little bit differently. We’re just going to jump straight on in and actually do the thing. Because I’ve been reflecting on my previous sessions, and I feel like they haven’t quite been landing, as much as I wanted to.
So no theory. Not showing you how to do something later, we’re gonna go straight ahead and do the thing right now. So if you haven’t already, could you please open your worksheet for this session and have it either on your screen or on your desktop, whatever works for you. No shame if you’re old school paper.
I am often that person too.
Now if you go straight to, the top of the second page, so, the page with the first set of prompts and things for you, you’ll see that right up top, the first thing that is there is a fill in the blank style prompt, which says and sorry my face will be looking sideways because I will be also looking at my, computer with the non working sound. It says if insert your biz biggest robot or limitation was no issue, I had insert action and or outcome.
So obviously I’d like you to fill this in.
In terms of your biggest roadblock or limitation, that may be something that’s quite global in your business, So for example, something like time or capacity, or it could be something that’s quite specific to the business that you’re trying to work towards and trying to build here in CSP. So for example, if you are someone who is trying to shift from making the majority of your revenue via one to one client services to someone who makes majority of their revenue through selling, online programs or products, then it might be that your current limitation is you have a slow list growth.
So think what that is for you. I imagine for most people, it will be quite easy to identify that key challenge. It’s that thing that you keep coming up against.
And you may notice it in different patterns. It might have been the same thing for the last, you know, six months, twelve months, two years.
So identify that one, is anyone having trouble pinpointing that challenge?
Nope.
Abby’s a strong no. I love it.
Okay. Cool. And then the second part of that prompt, I would love you to put in, like, something quite wild, so don’t place any value judgments on what this sort of big action or outcome would be. But just think, like, in this hypothetical scenario, if that challenge didn’t exist, if it wasn’t there, What would you actually do then? What would you have in your business?
I’ll give you a minute to think that one through because I often find that this can be the piece of the puzzle, but can take a little bit longer to sort of pinpoint.
But again, you know, don’t filter it, don’t judge it based on all. That’s not really possible. We’re just talking hypotheticals here. So again, if that biggest roadblock was not there in your business, what would you then achieve? What would you do What would be the outcome?
Okay. Has everybody got something in that first box? Yeah, Abby.
Jessica Nicole Naomi, Caroline. Caroline, how are you guys going? Thumbs up from Naomi?
Jessica. How are you going there?
Abbie you’re supposed to be on Vauxer answering my question because I was like, I don’t wanna present to the whole group, but I will.
You don’t have to share if you don’t want to.
Well, no.
No.
No. It’s fine. It’s more because I need the help.
I have a list to things that I feel like could be my biggest roadblock.
So I think Abby, you talk to me every day. Well, what’s what’s yours? What do you think mine is?
I know what mine is. Mine is.
I know what yours is. I think I know it’s cool.
Yeah. Not raising not raising my rates. I don’t know what your biggest roadblock is though.
I think Thank you.
Okay.
I think one of them is is self doubt because you think you’ll wanna do something and then half, I think you’ll be like, oh, maybe I should be doing this. Maybe I, like, maybe I should have gone down this route and you’ll wanna change. So I think it’s indecisiveness, but I think it comes from self doubt.
Yeah.
I agree with you. That’s what I had. Fear of failing the self doubt thing. Okay. Thank you. That helps.
Awesome. Love this.
So good. K. Is that clarified the second part of that, thing for you, Jessica? Awesome.
And Caroline, how are you tracking there? You can pop something in the chat if you don’t wanna show your noggin secrets.
Yeah. I think Caroline I don’t know if you had access, but I think she might be with her family. In a car. So she said she may not be able to interact so that yeah.
I don’t know if you can see that or not, but No.
Sorry. Because I left, I thought maybe if I, Oh, there she is.
Yep.
Yeah. If my fear of something like fraud or self doubt was no issue, I’ve had my business change and charge a lot more. Okay. Cool. Awesome Caroline. And, hey, Katie, I see you’ve just joined us just to catch up. We’re just working our way through that first prompt in the worksheet.
It should be pretty self explanatory.
So you’re just popping in there what your biggest current roadblock in your business is the thing that keeps getting in the way of you hitting your goals, and then also what you would do or achieve in your business if that thing was no issue. And again, we’re just thinking hypotheticals here. So we’re just trying to broaden that perspective by knocking out that big challenge that always gets caught up and trapped.
And no worries that you were late. I also my audio didn’t work, so I’m a few minutes like getting started too. So not a problem.
Okay. Alright. We’re gonna roll through to the next, section of the worksheet pretty quickly, because the speed is actually part of this exercise.
So if you just, look beneath, where you’ve just put that first statement, you’ll see there is a table with ten different slots that says ways to bridge the gap from here to there. Now, again, I just want you to think about this hypothetically. So, any way that you could actually problem solve, and you could do the thing that you’ve just written down, Even if it, you know, that, like, not, like, that’s not gonna work for me, I want you to avoid placing any judgments on these ideas. If it would theoretically get you from a to b, I want it In that box, and the aim of the game here, success for this talk looks like filling in as many possibilities of that box as you can, even if some, ludicrous ideas or things that would not work for you.
So as an example, if I was doing this exercise right now, my biggest challenge with two very young kids’ capacity, and the thing that I would do if that was no issue would be selling to live with three half day rates a week. Every week because that would bring me about, I think, four hundred k, just from that one, offer every year.
And ways that I could possibly bridge that gap.
For example, I could deliver those day rates at night, when I know my husband’s here and he can be point person for the kids, I could hire a subcontractor.
I could look at some sort of agency model. I could build some sort of AI that could write like me to speed things up. So I’m just spitballing ideas, and as you can see, they’re sort of all, really, they’re very possible, and I’m not feeling during in terms of how suitable they might be for me. So I’ll give you guys five minutes to fill in as many of those ten slots as you can. If you have any questions or you get stuck, just give me a yell.
Oh, sorry, Carla. I just saw your question. Suggestions on how to bridge the gap when the issue is self doubt.
Yeah. Good question.
So I think when we’re looking at what your design outcome is Caroline. You promote your business and charge a lot more.
So we’re looking at ways to bridge the gap from what you’re doing in your business now to what that outcome is that you would actually do. So, for example, we’re just saying that if that self doubt wasn’t there, So if that wasn’t there, what kind of things would you do? Can you imagine pitching yourself for, various in person events to to speak on stage? Could you imagine, just setting your rates a lot higher and going after those clients who you know that could actually afford that investment?
Does that make sense? So we’re problem solving from how you could get from where you are now to where you identify that you would like to be in that first goal. And again, we’re just assuming that that self doubt isn’t an issue. Okay. Cool.
Alright, guys.
We’ll leave it there. How many possible ways to get from a to b did people get? Feel free to yell out or to just pop a number in the chat.
Eleven.
Oh, who’s that eleven then? Me over at Seadema. I love it. What about you, Naomi? How’d you go?
About seven.
That’s awesome, Katie?
I had trouble deciding which problem was my biggest problem. So I have eight solutions each, but I was wondering if you had any tips on, like, which to focus on.
Mhmm. Yep. Do you wanna talk us through the options that you have for what the biggest problem is at the moment?
Yeah. So when I just brained down to like, okay, problems, it was like, capacity, audience size, overwhelmed, like, not knowing where to go next, and not feeling really confident that I have, like, like, impressive client results to point people to that are recent.
So the three that I wrote about were capacity, audience size, and results, and I have, like, six to eight solutions for each of those, but it’s kind of like a meta problem, but I’m like not knowing which problem is the biggest one is, like, part of one of, like, an additional problem.
Probably part of the overwhelm, I guess. Yeah.
So I guess when you think about those three separate things that you did identify and, put possible ideas down for, Which feels like the one that you’re really bugging your head up against the most?
Or the one that’s really stifling you or stopping you from, like, making changes in the growth that you want to?
Well, I I the three that I wrote were capacity, audience size, and no results, but I feel like the overwhelm is the one that’s really stopping me because I keep starting different projects and getting them to, like, sixty percent and then failing on them to go work on a different thing because I can’t decide which which is gonna be the the one that makes the most difference.
Okay. Yep. So then it sounds like overwhelm might actually be the biggest challenge, and that perhaps these other three things are subsets, all of that. Challenge because if you’re not following through on a on a, you know, project or a lead gen system, for example, the way through, then that could be impacting.
You know, the list size and those kinds of things. Does that sound right? Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So sorry. It sound like the one that you didn’t put.
I do four might be the one that you need to work on.
So feel free to, take a few minutes and then something sound for that. Yeah.
Well, I think I think too, the solutions for the overwhelm, like, the ones the solutions that I wrote could also help with the overwhelm one, two.
Yep. And I just wanna check with, with overwhelm as the key challenge, does that also help you articulate a really clear, like outcome or action that you would take, if that was no issue, if the overwhelm wasn’t.
Part of the equation at the moment?
I mean, I feel like if it’s like if overwhelm was no issue, then I would know which steps to take and which projects to tackle in which order.
Mhmm.
Yep. Do you have, I guess, a vision of what that would actually look like in your business? So, like, something that’s a bit further down the lines that if you doing that. If you had real clarity on, you know, everyone wasn’t there, so you knew what you were focusing on next, you’d finish those tasks, you’d be building something like where is that getting you? What’s that?
Further down the line, gold will collect.
It looks like being able to delegate because things are organized enough to bring another person in and being able to invest in support because I know what the task is, and I know what the desired outcome is. And then also having the, like, the systems that I’m building actually make it to a hundred percent, and then they start working for me.
Yes. Cool. Okay. So I feel like those are probably the more useful outcome to think about because they are obviously definitely a result of that feeling and have been able to prioritize tasks, but then more concrete things to be able to work towards. So been able to you know, delegate, automate, eliminate might be something like that or being able to outsource appropriately so that you have the space to do the court work.
There might be a goal somewhere in there that feels like it gets home for you, obviously use your own words.
Thank you, No worries.
Jessica, how’d you go with the table and the list of possible problem solving ideas?
Oh, yeah. I got about seven as well.
So Awesome.
That is amazing. And Caroline, I know you’re in the car, so feel free to just pop something in the chat if you would like. A number of how many you got to, and I’ll just keep an eye on that for you.
Seats. Amazing. That’s so good, guys. That is awesome.
So what you’ve just done is you have taken a hypothetical lens to, you know, what if, like, what could I do in my business if this thing wasn’t actually an issue. And when we approach goal setting from this angle, what it does, it allows you to identify what you actually want without those limiting beliefs getting in the way. Because you’re not doing the thing that we all do where you say, oh, yeah, but that wouldn’t work me because, or Oh, yeah, but that’s like a goal for, like, three years from now. So what you actually have in that table or in that list of possible ways to get from where you are now to where you’ve identified you would like to be, are possible routes to take.
Now some of those I’m sure will be absolutely terrible ideas for you and your business and how you like to work, and that’s totally okay. So if there are any in that list where you look at and you’re like, like that, theoretically could work, but I know that that’s just not ever gonna work in practice for me. Feel free to cross those out.
What I would love you to do is identify one of those that feels like the best fit. And it’s really important that when I say feels like the best fit, that doesn’t mean that you’re gonna look at it and not feel any discomfort because growth requires discomfort and there is a natural tension between what you want and what you need to do to get it. So, again, just reiterating that the best fit idea in your list there probably isn’t gonna be something that you feel one hundred percent confident with, but I’m just asking you to identify the one that feels like it fits you and how you work and your business and what you wanna build the best. So I’ll give you a minute or two to do that, and if you have any questions, oh, I don’t know what the balloons are going on.
Alright. And there we go.
Sorry. I never zoom on my phone, so here we are learning new things by accident.
Okay. Questions as you’re identifying that one, let me know. And once you have identified the best fit one, if you could just pop it in the chat, that would be awesome.
Bedtime, Abby?
Yeah.
It’s like five seven, but I’m so sleepy for some reason.
But it’s tiredness, not boredom. I promise. Sorry. It’s enjoying it.
It’s often me because I’m in Australia, like, on Paul’s father group programs and masterminds I’ve been part of. It’s often a ridiculous time for me, so I know that I know the feeling.
Naomi limit the number of clients to five and raise them in a monthly investment to three k. Awesome. This culture. I’m try I’m trying to reverse engineer what your, key challenges or limitations must be. And it’s quite interesting to see this. Awesome.
Katie, book a one to one coaching session to get ideas out of my head and verbally process what I’m stuck on. Amazing.
Hey, guys. These are really awesome. These are really clear and concise and totally achievable.
This is so great.
Are you going, Jessica? Do you need some help?
Maybe.
It’s the self doubt thing, which that if I was able to do I think that’s where I’m I’m I focus more on how to overcome the self doubt get to the thing on the other side of that. But I think the thing on the other side of that, the outcome I’d like is two seasonal sale campaigns a month around ten thousand dollars with clients that I like, and that I could use for further you know, books and promotion and things like that.
Awesome.
Does that seem in alignment though?
Yeah. Totally. Because I think your self doubt wasn’t an issue, then that’s probably what you’d be doing because you wouldn’t be scared about pitching those people or lending those projects.
Okay. Or to the green results. Okay. And, yeah, in in Fabi, I mean, it’s green too.
No. Yeah. Your because you’re self doubt, I think this comes from feeling like you don’t have the experience that you want to have. So I I feel like as soon as you start getting leads and doing projects, your confidence is just gonna go up and you’re not gonna put up with that self doubt, like, be because yeah.
I think I have the same a similar thing to Katie where it’s been so long since I’ve done seasonal sales.
It just feels like I’m too far away from it. So, yeah, I get yeah. Okay. Thank you.
Mhmm. And I think one of the, Cool, but also annoying things about self doubt is that there’s that little gap you have to bridge often in that you have to do the same. To solve the doubt.
It’s a catch twenty two and it sucks, but really it is the best way to get through it.
Cool. So with that in mind, Jessica, maybe I don’t know if you need to maybe write down some different, possibilities or different ways there, or we could you identify those now? What what would work best for you?
I’m quick just typing in if I can look to seasonal sale campaigns a month at ten k each.
Mhmm. Yep.
That would be kind of thing.
Okay. Awesome.
Amazing.
And again, Carla, I know you’re driving, so I won’t order in the car. So I won’t invest you, but if you do wanna share, feel free.
Okay. Guys, this is so good. So as you’ll see, the next box, which I deliberately left quite, vague in terms of heading, because, I mean, I feel like you already knew this, but I didn’t wanna make it super clear. I’m now going to ask you to actually take this hypothetical idea and it concrete and break it out into steps.
Because, of course, I think this is also where we can get lost when we are trying to make movement towards our big goals is that we have, you know, the end goal in mind, but we don’t know where to start. We don’t know what to do for the second, third, fourth, or fifth to do that thing.
So these things that you have written in the chat here, if you’re looking to actually do that, like what are the steps to actually make that a reality? What do you have to do? And I’d say this could be depending on how your brain works, a bit of a messy process in terms of actually writing things down and ordering them. So don’t worry too much if put something down and then realize, oh, that’s actually like step number four.
You know, this is your worksheet or your space wherever you’re working in. So you can edit. You can doodle. You can move things around.
It can it can be messy.
The important thing is to get it out on paper.
And I know that can also be the part where things can feel tricky and sticky and some of those mindset gremlins can come up. So please, as you are going through this, let me know what’s happening. Let me know where you’re getting stuck, whether it is a practical thing or a mindset thing, and I would love to coach you through it.
Can I ask Christie, like, I feel I feel like maybe I jumped ahead a step? Like, the thing that I put in the chat was the concrete step that I could take. So am I supposed to look like the goal is know what to do when I’m gonna do it and what that thing entails.
Mhmm.
So now it steps to get there.
Yes. Actually, yeah. You’re right. Sorry. Yes. So your this is this is great first step I feel because you can do that theoretically today.
Right? You could. Yeah. Book a one to one session with someone. And then I guess, you know, after that and after you have that information on paper, then what happens next?
Is it then are you maybe looking to hire someone to set up anything that has been identified as being able to be systematized or automated, is it perhaps interviewing VAs or OBMs, like, what are the steps in there that you see reaching to that goal? And thank you for bringing it up because, yes, you’re totally right. That’s a one step thing that you’ve got in the chat.
So What I’m identifying is the thing that I want that my big problem is stopping me from happening.
That’s right. So I think you’ve already identified that, and now you’re talking about, so if there’s a way to solve that problem. So perhaps it’s perhaps you need to go back to the section before this one and think about, like, okay, like, one way to solve that problem would be to outsource everything or to hire a system specialist.
Or it might be to, like, hire someone else. So so I think, yeah, maybe it’s about going back to that table before and looking at those because I think, yes, what you have here looks like the first step for you to get in clarity.
Into how things are sitting and where you can make them easier and less overwhelming and more streamlined. Does that sound right?
Yep. Yeah. It’s all just kind of clicked into place while you were talking. It’s okay. Thank you. Okay.
Awesome.
Alright. Is anyone stuck either on the practical step or is anyone feeling the kind of resistance that makes them think they won’t actually follow through on the things that are in front of them?
So I’m struggling with a lot of my clients are I I have very personal relationships with them because I work in a very small ecosystem.
And so some of them I started I only really started working on full time, like last May.
And most of my clients are either friends of friends or friends of old colleagues, or there’s like no more than like two degrees of two, three degrees of separation between me and most of the people in my ecosystem, which is good, but I not sure how easy it’ll be for me to either fire clients that are not working out or raise rates that are way below what I’m charging now because these are people that I’m gonna see in person pretty often, and I have to make Sure.
Got you. That can be tricky definitely because you’ve got dual relationships there, client, and also some sort of social relationship.
Would, raising the price of your services, would that, effectively fire some clients for you, like are some of your forfeit clients who won’t be able to afford this new price.
Well, some of it is just like, it’s a little bit of work here and there. But it’s not really worth doing the work because it’s just taking away time, every email, every call. It’s just is just draining my time. So I’m wondering also if it’s if it’s worth it at all, if it’s just a few hours a week, I, I, I’m not sure. I’m not sure if they would be, if they would be scared away.
Or they would think, it’s probably not worth it. We’ll just do it in house.
Mhmm.
Yep. Okay. I was only asking because somewhat sometimes that can be easy way out. When you outgrow a client, and then you raise your rates, it can be you can know sometimes. Like that person, then we’re gonna say yes, this is actually my problem for me. I think in the case where it sounds like you’re saying that you may or may not, but you definitely have some clients in mind who feel like they’re not a good it for where you actually want to take and grow your business.
Remember that the reasons that you have and you know and you’re telling yourself for wanting to get rid of them, you don’t have to pass those on to those clients. There are other ways to let them know about the decision. So, it could be, again, thinking that you obviously wanna try and preserve some of the relationship because you’re probably gonna bump into them socially and as things so intermingled for you, simply telling them, hey, the way I’m doing business is changing.
Here’s what’s happening, and I know that historically haven’t worked together this way. And I will be really sad to see you go, but, you know, this is what’s next for me. So there can be a way of, like, just letting them know quite kindly, quite politely without sort of going into the details of perhaps why they themselves are not a fit, and therefore making it personal.
Will it be uncomfortable, probably? I think a lot of conversations that we have in business are, but think you don’t want to sacrifice your business success, you know, for the sake of potentially a few awkward conversations.
So Yeah. I’m actually saying it probably will be uncomfortable, but I think you’re absolutely right. If it’s bits and pieces work, if it’s clients that really don’t fit the vision you have for where your business is going, and they don’t support that, either in terms of money or the work that you’re wanting to do, then it is time to let go of them and time to make space for those who do. Anything else? On Naomi, do you wanna talk about that a bit more?
Does it make sense to get rid to let them go before I take on new clients or just buy new clients and then let them go.
Mhmm.
I feel like it always makes sense to let go of some of them before in order to make space.
Even though that’s scary, and I know, you know, financially as well, it can be daunting to see blank space in your calendar.
But I think most of us in this room can probably attest to the fact that if you hang on to clients.
It’s if you don’t create space or ideal clients to come into, then it sort of drags on and on and on, and, you know, you’ll be six months down the track before you actually make the change. So lightify under your own bum, I would say, by getting rid of these clients making space, for people who actually are a good fit. And reach out in slack when you’re doing it too if you want to because I think sometimes even just having, like, the support of people who’ve been there, who’ve done it before while you’re actually doing the scary thing can be really helpful, and can just make you make that move even when it is uncomfortable.
Amazing. Do you guys are legends?
Alright.
So we’ll move on to the last, piece of the worksheet, and then I think we’ll have a few minutes too to just open up discussion on whatever you’d like. But you’ll see the last thing there is a table, with good space for good, better, best goals.
So I think chances are you probably already identified your best goal in that initial statement that we did at the top of the worksheet.
It may not be, but I think nine times out of ten, that’s probably your ideal outcome.
So thinking through then how to set other goals so that this isn’t a next size that is so black and white and you either hit that goal or you fail miserably, what are good and better goals? So a good goal is basically your baseline level of success, which might look quite different to your best goal, but is still absolutely a really positive shift and a positive growth for your business in this direction that you’re moving in.
A better goal is typically somewhere between the good and the best goals. So it’s something that you can feel really chucked about, you know, this this move and this strategy has been more than successful, even though it might not have keep the heights of your, like, ideal, like, best world scenario outcome.
And the reason that these are important is that Again, it gets you out of that black and white thinking where sometimes we normally set big goals for our business and we’re working towards them. If we get point, we realized they’re not gonna happen to the extent in which we were setting out to achieve. We can get disheartened and we can give up. If we have these goals that allow us a little bit more flex, and allow us to actually benchmark our success at different levels. It is often more motivating and just gives us, something better to reach towards And also, I find when you do hit the good goal, you can often get a boost of motivation to keep reaching out for that better and then that best goal too.
Ideally, of course, these goals should be measurable in some way.
So even if they are a feeling goal, which is totally okay, by the way, if one of the goals is that you feel less overwhelmed.
Just think about what that actually looks like and how that could actually be measured. So for example, that would be, you know, it means that I get to switch my laptop off at five thirty PM every day and not worry about you know, what I’ve got on the next morning. It could be something like that. So something that you can actually measure as opposed to just, like, feel less stress because I think without the specificity there, it’s gonna be a very hard goal for you to actually reflect on and work out. Yep. That’s what’s happened or no. I’m not quite there yet.
Katie.
Well, hey, maybe that is one of your goals though.
Maybe sure to Alice, who knows? But I know there’s works.
Sometimes I feel like you’re working fully hours and then sometimes Fifty months the opposite.
It’s the day care pickup. Is it three thirty? So, like, I could happily work till seven, but I just don’t there’s no space.
Yes. Well, I feel that very much too.
Katie, I know. It’s a season. I keep telling myself that. I’m like, there will eventually be more time in our days where little people don’t need us to do all the things.
Yeah. I feel like I don’t know about you, but I do feel one good side effect of motherboards is that my efficiency rates have gone through the roof. It’s like when I have time that I can use, I use that time.
I’m on the opposite side. Mine is gone. Yeah. I kinda wish I had that limitation right now.
I have too much time. So Either way, you’re gonna have a problem. It’s either you don’t have enough or you have too much and you gotta figure it out. It’s kinda like money.
You either have too much or too little. And no matter what you’re pun penalized for one of them. So yeah. I didn’t join the little kid.
I take my little kid back anytime.
Back to the five year old, I’d take her again. She was fine.
Twenty one is fine, but That’s such good perspective, Jessica.
Thank you for sharing.
You’re welcome. Enjoy them while they’re little. Yeah.
Hey, guys. Anyone struggling with the good, better, best goals? Anyone unsure on how or when to try and measure their progress against them?
I feel like you’re also so so compliant this session. It makes me a bit nervous that maybe haven’t set goals in a big enough.
So I remember this should feel uncomfortable. Like, it should feel exciting, but it should also feel uncomfortable as you’re reaching for these things because growth Just by definition does require discomfort. And as I mentioned earlier, there will be that tension whether it’s now when you’re actually doing the thing between what you want and what you need to do to get it. I really would love for you at those points in the process to reach out in Slack and say, hey, this is what’s coming up for me.
How do I deal or, like, can you just normalize this? Whatever whatever you need because, you know, you’re in CSP for a reason. I think you’re all ready to do big bold bad ass things in your business, but you’re also human. So I think you’re going to fault it in that journey from time to time as we all do.
So it’s normal, but reach out. I’m here. The other coaches are here, and we’re really just we want you guys to kick huge goals and do amazing things.
Alright. Pep talk over.
Any questions on any of this stuff or anything related to mindset business, copywriting.
Oh, that’s yeah.
Oh, you go.
Have a good one.
No. You don’t. You don’t.
Well, actually it was something Abby and I have discussed before, so I was just curious, Kirsty, what your thoughts were. So as I’m, you know, I So I don’t know if I have told you, but I used to run seasonal sales for over it’s ever been a lot of them, but it was a couple years ago when I was working for a company full time. And as I’m kind of thinking about this launching the package a signature offer of seasonal sale campaigns.
And I’m kind of struggling with the how to launch it, but then also, you know, Abby and I’ve heard Joe say either if you want case studies and stuff, do it for free or make the really high ticket price, you know. And so that’s kind of made me hesitate with putting it in a middle ground price range. So that’s why I said ten k because that’s a little bit bigger. But I don’t know. I’m just curious about your thoughts around any of that with launching this signature offer.
I haven’t had any people keep coming to me for email, which is great. I’m not complaining, but it’s not this. And I’m just kind of sitting there going, okay, practicing is a really important part of the positioning.
Well, do you have any recommendations or thoughts?
Yeah. Sure. I think, I mean, obviously Joe is a genius. I think probably what she says goes.
I think if ten K feels like it is that little bit uncomfortable, I think it’s probably the right price to set it up. I always find that if too comfortable with the price, then I feel like the price is too low. So I think that is the right price. I think it’s sent about how you position that and how you make sure the clients really see the value in that investment.
They see the ROI, and they have the desire for this amazing service.
So in terms of launching, do you have access to your ideal clients, like on an email list or similar, or will you be pitching people directly else he’s gonna go?
So as I’ve come back in about, I kinda let my business go dormant for a while. And the people on my business on my email list before were people who sought me out for, and funnels and all of that kind of stuff. So they were not e commerce and not, well, no, they were a couple e commerce, but, not not an alignment with this offer at all. So I’m basically starting again with a zero audience, so then that’s another thing that comes up on my list of need to build audience with this ideal, you know.
Yeah. So, no. I other than cold or warm pitching that kind of stuff, I don’t have a list with the ideal customer.
Okay. Cool. So, I mean, in that case, because you don’t have ready access to your ideal client, I would probably suggest offering to do one of this service for free or for a very low investment so that you can get the social proof. Because I think if you’re going to be doing outreach and you’re going to be warm pitching to people, it’s just going to increase the likelihood of getting a yes so much if you can say, hey, and I did this with this company in this business, and here are the results they got.
Because if you’re a relatively unknown person to your ideal client, you know, you really, I think, do need the proof and the value of what you do.
So I think and also, obviously, pitching people with the offer of something at a really low price because you’re wanting to use their their project as a case study or even for free, like, that is a much easier yes for a company. So that’s what I would do one hundred percent if I was in your shoes.
Great. Perfect. Thank you so much. My worries.
Abby.
Can I can I ask a follow-up question on behalf of Jesse?
Because Jessica, like, because you do have social proof and, like, you are gonna get that testimonial from Joe. Like, you have testimonials.
Do you really need to do? Like, do really two on free? Cause I know that Jessica, like, one needs the leads now and needs to get these projects in, like, what when when is social proof enough?
Like, does That’s a question.
Right? I don’t have social proof on this particular offer, the way it is. I could reach out to the former client and see how much permission I could get to share what I did for them.
Their marketers I bet Christina knows a couple of them, and I’m not a hundred percent certain they will let me or what. But I didn’t sign anything, but yeah, Yeah.
Does it have to be, like, for your specific offer? Or can it I mean, your offer is comprised of, like, copywriting and strategy, and you have testimonials that demonstrate you do strategy and copywriting very well.
I don’t know. I just don’t want because you said your goal is to booked to seasonal cell campaigns at ten k each, and doing one for free isn’t that gonna, like, slow that down? And I’m not, like, trying to argue with your advice see. I’m just more like because I know I know that Jessica wants, like, pay projects. So I’m just kind of, I don’t know.
I I would worry.
I I don’t know exactly what company is you’re working for. But if I’m thinking of hiring somebody who wants to do something for free, my thinking might go to why are they free? Like, does that mean they’re not worth the value?
Like, that would almost be a red flag in my mind, depend like, coming from more of an established company, Like, I I wanna pay somebody the fair rate, especially if it’s not my money. It’s the company’s money. Like, and I’m just, like, hiring a vendor. Like, For me, that would be a red flag. So, like, maybe they’re maybe they’re bad at what they do. That’s why they’re not charging what they’re worth.
Would agree with that Naomi. I think my red flag would go off as well. If I think when Kirsty said that when I’ve heard Joe say it, the one thought I did have his I do have a couple of contacts in my network who I’ve done work for, not in the seasonal sale capacity.
That I could see if I framed it under the guise of, I’d really love to use this in case studies, my future book, And, so obviously I wanna get you results and I’d like it to be mutually beneficial.
I feel like they might be a little more open and less fewer red flags going off in that, but but it’s also based off the fact that I have a relationship with them. But I see your point because I would say the same exact thing, especially if it were a cold itch or something like that. Yeah.
Katie just put in the chat what about doing it for ten k, adding a guarantee?
I think that’s a good idea. Like, literally, like, our homoze style guarantee, like, all your money back if it doesn’t perform.
Okay. Yeah. That’s a great idea because I think with all these things, what you’re trying to do is remove risk for the person who’s going to say yes to the project. Right?
One way to do that is to say, hey, there’s no risk for you because I’m gonna do it all for free and I’m gonna get e awesome results, but you’re part of the agreement, and I’m gonna hold you to this is that I wanna use this as a case study. So I need that from which I think is different offering to do something for free without you getting anything back. To me, that’s a red flag. If someone’s like, I just wanna offer to do it for free.
I just wanna go to some expertise. It’s like, no, thank you. But if you’re, like, really clear about why, what the exchange is, because you’re still getting something really valuable out of it, But, also, I love this idea of a guarantee, Katie, because that does the same thing effectively. You can say, here’s my rate.
But because it will be the first time I’m doing this precise service, then here’s here’s how we can go about the financial exchange, because I think that also just facilitates that. Yes. And what you really need is someone to say yes to this new offering from you so that you have the proof and you have the confidence to sell this more easily down back and you can get to that two seasonal sale campaigns every month as quick as possible.
In terms of the software, if you do have, I think when you are trying to prove a beta offer, which it sounds like this new service is because you haven’t actually rolled it out yet as, you know, as one complete package.
There are definitely bits of social proof that you can use like Abby’s talking about, so anything that proves your knowledge, your expertise, what you’ll like to work with as a service provider, all of that’s really relevant. Also, anything that proves, that you know your shit when it comes to seasonal sales campaigns. So if you could get something like that from Joe, for example, or from a previous client, anything of that will be helpful.
It’s about how you bring that proof together to build a picture that again removes or reduces risk for the person that you’re putting that service in front of.
Does that help? Wait.
Yeah. It does.
Didn’t you do this in house?
I I did do it in house, but I don’t I don’t know if so not in this offer. When it’s a really different offer, it is very much a different offer.
I did do a seasonal sale, but they were a company where it was like, a lot of last minute or, there’s a lot more components to my seasonal sale campaign than there was back then when I was literally just optimizing a sales page, writing the emails, writing the SMS, writing the ads.
There’s That was kind of the basic skeleton, and I’m I’m adding a lot to that.
I think you’re being too hard on yourself. I think you can talk to all of that work. I think this is I I think you’re being really nitpicky.
No. No. I’m I’m being sarcastic. Yes.
That that’s I’m a former teacher, maybe.
I mean, of course, I’m being nitpicky.
Like, I don’t I don’t really know what you mean by seasonal sales, to be perfectly honest with you because I’m in a very different industry, but like Yeah.
Years doesn’t do them very often.
No. No. But like it sounds like it sounds like you know a lot more about what you’re talking about. But you just don’t realize how much, you know, what you’re doing.
He does.
Thank you.
You can’t you can’t read the label from inside the jar.
Yeah.
I’m loving this guys. I mean, I feel like Abby obviously knows you really well in terms of you guys obviously connect quite a lot you know, outside of the the calls, the group calls that we have. So that’s awesome. And Naomi obviously knows your work as well. So, I mean, maybe what we’re dealing with here is actually just yourself doubt. And not a question of tactical approach.
Well, the good news is I broke down self doubt on the work sheet so we’ve selected correctly today. Hey. Hello.
Like, I’ve worked with people who, like, don’t know how to conjugate verbs properly, and they get promoted.
You know, like, I feel like your standards are just way too high.
Is there a lot of people who work in content and copy who just like don’t really know basic English, and make it by. So, like, you’re probably a lot further a lot than you think you are.
If I can conjugate a verb, we’re gonna set that as the standard from now on. Sounds good.
And Jessica, if you like, like, if you wanna plunk, like, a lot of the social proof that you do have in Slack, like, I would love to workshop that with you into something that could really help support this offer for you. Such a proof is like my my thing for copywriting. So feel free. Ping me. I’ll do it.
Alright. Thank you. I have sales page work to do, so that helps. Thank you.
Awesome.
And, Abby, I know you had a question. We can, if everyone’s happy to stay for two also, if you need to go, go. But if you wanna ask a question, Abby, then we can jump on in and then end things up.
Thank you. Yeah. I just wanted to ask your, be expected as someone who’s run a podcast.
Because part of mine is to, like, are gonna get on better high quality podcasts if you had any just like tips or insights into what you look for when someone sent you a pitch.
Yeah. Sure.
So interestingly, so the podcast that I run with Amy, business about Asuri, we always approach the guests that we wanna come on. We we don’t actually ever say yes to any pictures, but also we don’t get that many from people we know, which I think is the key thing, like, but you’d always random automated ones from people’s PR agencies, which we just delete straight away.
But I think having pitched a lot of podcasts as well, and like, I think when you do picture podcast, the key thing that you need to answer for the person you’re pitching is what does this person have?
For my audience? What do they have to offer my audience? Because their main goal is to get more listeners, get more subscribers, be a podcast that people talk about and share. So if you can give them an insight into how you’re gonna help them hit all their goals for their podcast, you’re more likely to be a yes for the pitch.
So, you know, I think as well, like, if you can avoid the quite templatized format of a typical podcast pitch, like, hi, name. I love your podcast, and they’re like talking about yourself. And then let me know something like that. Obviously, avoid that.
I think the more specific you can be, like, if you do actually listen to their podcasts, like, which episode have you loved? Like, which guest be loved, which conversation have you loved, and why?
Because I think even something like that from the beginning can show that you have to engage with the podcast, you haven’t just searched, you know, top copywriting podcasts, which I have.
Yeah. And one one follow-up question. So because the podcast I want to speak on offer course creators.
And I should I be concerned about stepping on their toes? Because a lot of them have offers evergreen offers or, like, courses to to serve their audience, and it’s they’ll be similar to my offer. So I guess, turn to y’all to start? Is that something that I should be concerned about, like, going in?
Or So I think that’s probably a call that they will each make.
As to whether they’re like, oh, is this person potentially gonna take business away from me, or are they gonna add to the conversation around this idea or this approach?
So I wouldn’t be worried about it if I was you. I think that’s only in their court to make that full.
And you could try, you know, finding that you’re pitching people who you are technically in competition with and you keep getting nose, you could even try mixing up the pitch, and you could even maybe acknowledge, like, hey, I know that you your business is built on a similar offer or something like that. I would love to talk have this conversation with you because, and you could communicate how it’s actually gonna be quite cool to have this conversation from two different perspectives.
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah. So test and refine, I think, is a general rule for everything when it comes to business.
Yep. Okay. Thank you very much. It does helpful.
My pleasure.
Christie, can you just say the question again that you said we should be answering in our podcast pitch?
Like, what does this person So how how is my presence on the podcast going to help this person’s podcast be more successful?
So how’s it gonna help them get more listens? It gonna help me get more subscribes? How’s it gonna help them get more shareable content? So basically, how are you gonna serve the goals that they have for their podcast?
Perfect. Thank you.
Think I said it differently the first time around, but that’s approximate.
Alright, guys. Thank you so much for coming along. Sorry again. The snafu at the start. I don’t know what was happening with my computer. Anyway, almost happens at six AM.
Please keep me posted in Slack, ping me with any questions, any help, anytime you get stuck. I wanna see you keep these big goals. I wanna see you make progress towards them, I wanna see you do the thing, and I wanna just hold your feet to the fire, I guess, over the next over the next few months is these steps unfold.
Alright.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Bye.
Setting Your Rate & Knowing Your Worth
Setting Your Rate & Knowing Your Worth
Transcript
So as you all, rightfully know, this workshop is all about setting your rate and knowing your worth.
So quick sort of temperature check, in the room, when it does come to conversations and decisions around pricing and setting rates, like how are you feeling? Is the general vibe that you’re worried you’re undercharging? Do you sometimes worry that you’re overcharging? Is it just that you spend a lot of time caught up, in these questions in your head as you go about your work and your business? You just give me like a one sentence insight for each of you in terms of sort of where you’re at?
I can give you a one word in this both.
Okay. Awesome. I love that. Very relatable.
Seriously, I’m in a house, so I’m not doing a whole lot of pricing.
Cool. Are you looking to go out on your own anytime soon, Randall? Is this part of plan?
Or So, yeah.
There I mean, just maybe this is TMI, but I when I signed up for this, it looked like I might be going back on contracts. With the same company I’m working for. Gotcha. In that moment for now has passed.
Mhmm.
But I’m thinking that just what I see with AI and whatnot, maybe it might be a good idea for me to, yeah, pick the thing and run out as far ahead of the blob of the seeping blob of AI, So that’s, yes, definitely giving consideration to, you know, doing a bit more networking, the next, you know, six to ten months. And then, yeah, giving real, I guess, consideration to going back out of my own again, probably about a year from now.
Awesome. Cool. Well, this could all be stuff that you tuck in your back pocket for if or when that time comes.
Absolutely.
And Julian, what about you? Where are you at when it comes to thinking about pricing?
I would say I’m probably more on the side of undercharging.
Was that under or over? Sorry. Under. Under. Okay. Yep. Awesome. Alright. Well, let’s start here, just with what we can expect to dive into today.
So I’m sure that all of you here have probably heard the advice when it comes to pricing that good pricing is all about ROI and or it’s about charging what you’re worth so today I really wanna challenge both of those statements because I think while there is, like, a little nugget of truth in both of those, pricing is far more nuanced, than either of these statements actually allows for. So the more we can move away from these sort of blanket all or nothing statements, I think the easier pricing actually becomes.
We’re also going to hopefully uncover some of the internal narratives that might be getting in the way of you charging the rate that you want to or the rates that you feel comfortable doing, and also, lastly, a fix for the fact that no matter how expert you are or how expert you become, you can never guarantee your copy’s performance one hundred percent, which of course can be one of those things that does make pricing challenging, particularly from a mindset point of view.
Now Abby, shared some really, generous beautiful insights into her challenges with pricing inside of the Slack group. And one of them was this, my secret wish would be for someone to review my end to end service and copy, and then give me a number. Congratulations, your work is worth this many dollars. And I was just wondering, does that wish resonate with anyone in here?
Yeah. I mean, that that’s certainly be awesome if it was that great porta book.
Alright.
This looks like about, you know, five hundred bucks an good stuff and go ahead and go out and get it, you know.
Yep. And Randall, I think I saw your mouth moving, but you’re on mute. Sorry.
Oh, I was, like, yeah. And my my machine’s breathing a little heavy, so I actually missed a bit what Nolan said.
Yeah, I don’t know if my statement would have that many x’s at the end. Monday maybe, but, yeah.
I love that. Yep. Cool. And thumbs up from Julian. Yeah. Awesome. I feel like it is such a normal desire to have because, of course, it is such a great idea to be able to outsource those things that are really uncomfortable for us, and to have someone else word or valuation to stand behind, when you are quoting a price for a project, and I think there’s a lot less mindset in talking about pricing if you’re working inside of an agency or another business, than when you’re actually creating your own prices for yourself as a service provider, So just wanted to put that out there to help normalize this, and then deep start to dig into this a little bit more.
So the pricing is about more than ROI, and ROI is about more than money.
So one of the objections I always get, when I’m working with coaching clients inside my own programs, is that because you write launch copy and for you, you know, it’s so easy to draw a really direct line of ROI between your work and the money made for that business, which is true. It is in launches. You know, you have so many data points, and you can, you know, quite easily, get a pretty solid idea of your impact on that business’ revenue from that project.
But of course, ROI is about a lot more than money. So let’s dive into these two points to start with.
So factors that influence pricing include everything from your target market and of course there is a ceiling for a certain type of golf with a certain type of client, and I always like to make this point because I feel that sometimes there can just be that overwhelming advice that comes out you to just continually raise your rates, raise your rates, raise your rates, but the fact is that there is a point at which you will max out, rates if you’re doing the same kind of project with the same kind of client. So at that point, something needs to shift and change, whether that’s the service you’re offering or the client who you’re servicing.
Supply and demand, obviously, also influences pricing, and I think this, folds in nicely to everything you’re doing inside in terms of really, getting known and building your expertise, because of course, you know, someone like Joe, who is obviously incredibly well known and respected in the copywriting world. I’m sure she has far more projects coming at her than she can accept. So, having less supplied than its demand obviously means that, you can charge higher rates, because you are a scarce resource.
Comtaining offers also matter, particularly in terms of how yours compares, whether that is the fact that it’s you who’s actually offering that service and in your prospect’s eyes, that makes it a more valuable thing, or whether it’s because, you know, your has a more holistic approach or they get more, deliverables, whatever that might look like, positioning, which is your ability to actually communicate your offer in terms of its features, benefits, any guarantees you can offer, those comparisons too with your competitors can often be really, really key in good positioning, and of course also the social proof so that you can prove that, you know, people are actually very likely to get, the results that you are talking about, as you promote your offer.
So the other major factor that influences pricing is, of course, you, so your financial needs and goals, the way you want to work the clients you want to work with, the expertise you’re willing to build, the demand you’re able to create, and, of course, the price you’re confident charging So in other words, all that mindset stuff that comes alongside of all the positioning stuff on the first slide.
So I think, you know, It can help full of things that were on the previous slide to think about something as simple as like the cheese cabinet at your local supermarket. You know, there’s a whole range of different options there, and each of those are positioned for a certain market. You know, they’ll be the cheap five dollar block of cheese that, you know, might be targeted towards families or students or whoever, and there might be the fancier, you know, rounds of brie that are twelve dollars a pop that obviously have a different target market, and they are positioned and packaged, etcetera accordingly.
So that can be sort of a helpful metaphor I think start thinking through the positioning of your offer and the price it should be given who it’s for, what it offers, etcetera, etcetera.
We will obviously be diving into everything on this slide, in a few more minutes, but while we’re talking about the more, I guess, practical elements of pricing, I wanted to just spend a couple of minutes talking about non monetary ROI because I know for some of you in the group, the line between your work and money made for your clients is harder to draw or sometimes not even that relevant.
So So other really valuable things that clients can get from the kind of work that we in this group provide are things like competence or legitimacy so for example, if someone is an excellent service provider, but they have a website that they built themselves two years ago on a dodgy like WordPress template, you know, being able to, have a website that’s professionally done messaged professional copy, etcetera, can really help with that sense of legitimacy around their business and their work.
Clarity as well. So often, even working, as I do with launch clients are being able to get real clarity on what it is they’re offering and being able to have the words with which to communicate that can be credibly valuable because it allows them to do things like appear on podcasts or on stages and talk about their business and their work, a lot more easily.
Opportunity, of course. So, you know, if you’re able to provide a client with a service that sort of helps them go up a level or become more visible, there’s going to be in all likelihood more opportunities come their way. There can also be things like customer or client status action. So example, for example, if you optimize UX, so if you’re working with a business on their onboarding sequence, for example, and didn’t have one before, that optimized UX, even though it comes after the point of sale, can help with things like retention, etcetera, etcetera.
So note that all of these can and often do lead to monetary gains, it’s just that the line between them is less direct or harder to measure. So if you are working in a space with one or more of your offers where the ROI isn’t necessarily all about money, or it may be kind of about money, but you’re like, how do I actually prove or measure this? Here are some tips. So find out what matters to your prospects and why.
So for example, if a prospect says to you, I just wanna site that makes me look look legit. Like, I’m over this dodgy DIY version I’ve had for the last year and a half, make sure that you ask them. Okay. What will that allow you to do? Why is that important to you right now? Because then you’ll get to the point where they might say something like, that way I’ll be more likely to pitch myself for those bigger deal opportunities. You know, I’ll be likely to put myself front of, the bigger deal clients, or I’ll reach out to pitch more in person events, whatever that might look like to them.
So, of course, in that scenario, if your client is doing more pictures and they have the assets to back them up, whether that is the words to talk about what it is they actually do and what they offer and what their expertise is, or, again, a website in this example that actually displays their for these, illegitimacy, words from, you know, clients who they’ve done really amazing work with, that equals more chances of lending gigs, which equals greater exposure, more leads, and ideally more revenues. So as you can see, in a scenario like this, the line between the you do and the money your client stands to make from it is quite removed, but in this situation, it still is there.
So what you wanna do is once you’ve identified that, assuming you close the project, you know, it’s actually then go back and close the loop. So remember to ask about those things once the project wraps and there’s been opportunity for these desires to be realized. So, I mean, ideally you don’t wanna ask for feedback about your work, you know, two days after you submit because there would have been no chance for it to be liven out in the wild and helping their client, helping your client achieve all these goals that they have for it.
But that way, if there is a line to draw between your work and dollars made, you’ve got a really concrete way to do it. Right? You’ll have a testimonial. You’ll have social proof, which you can then leverage, throughout your assets and your online presence and in your sales process trial. And even if there’s no line to draw, which again, no problem at all, people will pay good money for things that are not all about money and profit, you still have proof of the outcomes that matter.
So just just a little reminder that ROI can and often does look different to purely monetary things, and I think getting an understanding of this stuff can also help with your positioning in your USPS. So for example, even though I worked in launches, one thing my clients will very regularly say about working with me is that I just took everything off the plate, their plate, and made their launch so low stress and so easy and almost enjoyable. And I found that has been a really valuable piece of the puzzle for me to leverage my social footprint in my marketing to help me land more clients and specifically more of the clients that I wanna work with, and of course that has nothing to do with the the actual money made.
Alright. Diving a little bit deep now into the more mindset side of pricing.
So Abby also shared that I’m craving external validation and permission to charge more. But there’s still a feeling of who am I to ask for all this money.
Angelian, you said that you sort of are earning more towards side of being like you’re undercharging. So this may hit home for you.
I don’t know if you’re free to give me a thumbs up if it does and, you know, ignore me if it doesn’t, and no one may It does.
Okay. Awesome. And Nolan little nod there, I think, from you too. This sounds like an resonant sometimes.
Sometimes I’m like, oh, this is awesome, you know, and then I’m like, yeah, my goodness. This, but then, you know, the KPIs tend to speak for them ourselves, or or sometimes they don’t, you know.
Yeah.
That’s the beauty of our the nature of our work, you know.
That’s why we test too.
Absolutely. Yeah. Testing, oh my god. So much value in that process.
And Randall, I think you might have been about to say something? So you unmute?
Well, when I was, yeah, on the market, definitely trying to figure out, Yeah. Why should somebody pay me this kind of cash?
Mhmm.
Yep. Yes. I think almost every business owner has this worry at one time or another, and it can be quite a persistent question. And I think again, this is one of the things that is really problematic about the advice of charging what you’re worth So let’s dive into this. So first up, two quick statements, your work does not equal your worth, as a human being, as a person, and your business doesn’t equal you. So what I mean by both of these statements, this is an example that I hope is relatable, When you buy KFC, are you thinking about paying the kernel or are you thinking about buying the chicken?
So I think it’s just so important to really set the right frame for the exchange because that’s what pricing is. Right? It’s about picking the number or learning on the number that is a fair exchange for the work the outcomes that you’re going to be able to offer the person purchasing.
So remember that your prospects aren’t buying you, right? It’s not a reflection of your worth as a human being, lot of reflection of, you know, how much an hour with you is worth as a person.
They’re buying a product And in many cases, also an experience, right? And this can be part of how you differentiate yourself and part of how you add real value to the people that you serve. That you offer with clear expectations around the exchange, including the process, the likely outcomes, and what you’ll do to minimize risk So, I mean, I think as you can probably tell by this statement, the best pricing and the best conversations around pricing are really transparent. Right? It’s about both parties being able to make a really informed decision on, is this worth the money that this person is charging?
So I think if you are ever getting stuck on questions like, oh god, can I really charge this much? Come back to this, and just remember that to set to set your sights on this, and to not worry about anything beyond this, because this is the question that you are answering whenever you pricing, a product or a service or a program.
I wanna dive into internal narratives here, particularly those around worth and what you deserve, you notice I have both of those words in quotations, I think throughout this whole presentation because I think they’re quite loaded, quite loaded terms.
So I think the fact of the matter is that most of us have stumbled into copywriting, and there’s no formal universal process of accreditation. Right? It’s not like if you’re a doctor, for example, or a therapist where you have to meet certain requirements and also maintain, a currency within that industry, right, you have to do, while listing Australia, you certainly have to attend a certain number of training and get a certain number of hours of supervision to be able to maintain a license that says that, yes, this person is qualified, and adequate to continue practicing. That does an existing copywriting, right?
So in other words, it’s largely up to us as individuals to view ourselves as being up to task, which means that the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and how we operate can be hugely influential.
Both in really positive, facilitative ways, but unfortunately more often, in ways that are quite restrictive or limiting.
So in tonal narratives, this comes from the world of psychology, which is what my background is in. I worked as a therapist for a number of years before I stumbled into copywriting, and I used to do a lot of narrative therapy with my clients as well. But basically, these are the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves and they are hugely influential because they do all sorts of things from shaping our identities to giving events in our lives, meaning They also tell us what we deserve, what we’re capable of, what our purpose is, and what our future should look like, and really at the crux of it, they influence the way we think feel and behave.
So for example, someone who has an internal narrative that I’m a slow learner is going to be less likely to seek and accept opportunities that put them in stretch and under pressure than someone who has an internal narrative that I always figure it out. So again, there’s a difference there between the internal narrative, which is what’s going on inside here, and the actions that we’re taking in the world, but there is a direct link between the two.
So therefore, in this scenario, person a, the I’m a slow learner is going to grow in skill and confidence more slowly than person b, and this is regardless of their expertise or ability. Right? So these stories we tell ourselves often have no burnt and no bearing on how qualified we are but they do have a huge influence on how we act and how we show up in the world and also, of course, how we approach our pricing and those conversations around that and the feelings that we have around that. So if you need I I wanna stop here and just ask if Any of you have any insight into what some of those internal narratives are for you, particularly when it comes to how they may influence your pricing.
And if it helps, like, as a personal example, when I first started copywriting, I came from an industry from psychotherapy that was highly regulated you know, I had postgraduate degree. I was registered with the relevant body here in Australia, etcetera, etcetera. There were so many checkpoints for me to go to, and then all of a sudden was in this profession that really just relied on me saying, Hey, I’m a copywriter now.
So for the long time, the first probably twelve, eighteen months of been in business, one of my internal narratives was like, you know, no one’s qualified me for this. So that was something that really impacted how I showed up the kind of work that I accepted and sought out and also the price of the decisions that I made. So I’m just wondering, Nolan Randall, Julian, is there anything coming up for any of you in terms of some of these stories that might be going around in your heads.
Here’s the I think for me, it was a matter of the question of selling. What was the big story?
And that, I, you know, growing up I’m much more close to identify with my dad than I do with my mom. My mom was in real estate.
She sold and sold and sold, all the time, you know, dinner after dinner, you know, I mean, not quite that bad, but, you know, She slept tonight.
And, And so I didn’t wanna be in sales. That was a big part of who I thought I was.
Mhmm.
And then when I left the academy and went to sales, that was that was hard.
And finding that strategy, you know, and you know, tapping into people’s needs rather than, and, you know, how I could provide solutions, that was hard. It was really hard. So not quite, I think, in terms of, this example, exactly. But, yeah, that that story, until I switch, from the selling to the solutions part. It took a while.
So Yes. Totally. And I know, and I think that’s a really great example. And maybe it’s not specific the pricing, but definitely to the process of lending clients, you know, because if you have a narrative that, like, I’m not a salesperson or, you know, even something like sell selling is unethical, and I didn’t know if that was quite correct for you or selling is IKE, that’s obviously going to impact the way that you show up to those conversations and those tasks. So that’s an awesome example. Thanks, Randall.
Nolan, I see you unmuted yourself.
Oh, yeah. No. Sorry. Yeah. No. That was that was awesome. Really well said that. Yeah.
So for me, I have two that instantly come to mind. And one that I know is, like, a more positive one, which is, like, I’m good with analytics and math because you mentioned real estate. That’s like what my background is, and I had that same thing where I hated the idea of sailing because before that, even I did, like, accounting and bookkeeping fellowship, used to crunching numbers and things like that. And then when I got into real estate, I was like, oh, man.
I I have to and I I’m okay with talking with people. I’m completely fine with that. I mean, the the fact that it’s, like, I need to be a little bit pushy. So what I found is a strategy that works for me to get people sold is, like, similar to you doing copywriting, you know, you speak to the one odd And for me, that was people who were like data geeks and wanted to know, like, macroeconomic facts about, like, the local market and things like that.
So I just spoke to that and I I stuck with that. And then the one thing that this is a little more specific to pricing is that, like, holy shit, I just made, you know, more than a hundred dollars in an hour for x amount of hours. Like, I’m not used to that, you know. It’s like it’s kinda crazy.
Mhmm. But then again, it’s like you said, just going back on the, the internal narrative kinda thing. It has to kinda it’s really strong stuff, but it’s, like, just kinda resonating right now. Like, because it goes into the subconscious that you build yourself where it’s, like, either I’m a slow learner, so I’m going to go about this differently. Like, you’re setting yourself up for these kind of things.
So Yeah. Absolutely.
If they’re positive or negative or both or confusing, or jumble of all.
Right?
Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. There’s lots of gray in this. They’re not necessarily always positive or always negative. There can be some which can go either way depending on the situation in the scenario, and the events that are unfolding around you.
Right.
Anything you wanted to share Julian and no pressure if you if you nothing’s coming or you’d rather not. That’s okay.
Nothing’s specific. It’s going to mine right now, but I’m I’m sure I have some of it.
No. No worries.
So I think one of the things that, is really useful to keep in mind, I think, when you are starting to spend some time trying to identify and then work with or work through those internal narratives that you may have that can get in the way of pricing and even selling as Randall and Ola Nubo shared, and I guess particularly if you’re thinking about any narratives around your worth, the narrative of I don’t know enough, which can be a common one if you’re in phase of learning a lot about copywriting or how to run a business, for example, that can be just as limiting as a narrative of I know it all. So people will often think that the answer to, like, not knowing enough is getting to the point magically somehow across some huge goal where all of a sudden you have all the information, you have all the answers, and you’re just like an infallible expert.
Both of those narratives, I think, are just as limiting because they both block learning and growth, and furthermore they rarely close sales. Right? The I don’t know enough person is likely to show up as being quite nervous, or maybe a little bit unqualified or, not as a partner, which if anyone watched my first training around sales calls, that is what good clients want. They want a partner, that they can work with towards the goal.
And someone who has a narrative of I know it all is likely to show up as being a bit of an arrogant dickhead, which is, again, someone that people probably don’t want to work with, right? And I think the, I know it all one is all often have blinkers on. They’ll be, convinced that their way is the right way, and they won’t have the flexibility to respond to challenges as they unfold, which let’s be honest, it is rare that you have a project that goes one hundred percent smoothly, and that everything that you think you’re gonna do at the beginning of the project is exactly what you do at the end.
There are often bumps and humps to overcome along the way.
So a far more fruitful narrative is I trust myself to figure it out, and I think one of the beautiful things about this is it’s takes away, the wait time between maybe not knowing enough and, like, having to magically somehow know everything, right? As you can be in the middle here and just be curious enough and open enough and have enough knowledge about what it is that you’re doing and who it is you’re working with to be able to make really informed decisions as you go. I think it also takes the pressure off, because it’s not about like being fully qualified and fully ready every single time for every single opportunity that comes knocking at your door, but it’s about saying, okay, this is gonna be a bit of a stretch or a bit of a challenge for me.
That’s a good thing. Like, let’s do this because I do back myself to actually be able to work through this in real time. And this kind of attitude is so appealing to clients too because It’s a bit like if you, I don’t know, like some plumbing in your house breaks and you don’t know what the problem is, but you know that your tap’s leaking and you can’t fix it, you know, it is a nice, safe feeling to be able to book a plumber, even if they can’t tell you over the phone, okay, it sounds like this is the problem. If they’re like, okay.
Yeah. I’m not sure, but I’ll definitely be able to work it out. Like, you know, I’ll come and have a look, and I’ll identify the problem, and I’ll, and I’ll give you a fix. So that can also be a helpful metaphor I think too when you’re thinking through what this narrative can look like in practice.
So in terms of how you build that narrative or more helpful narratives around, blocks you might have around things like sales, etc.
The key here is, a process called reauthoring, that’s what we call it in therapy, but basically it involves looking for exceptions to whatever limiting narratives you have around skills, your ability, or your worth, or selling, and mounting a case for more facilitative ones. So, single questions to ask here, if one of the narratives that does show up for you is around, you know, a lack of knowledge or skills or experience, can be one of you impressed a client or peer with your expertise, When have you surprised yourself with your know how or your ability, when have you got great results for a client or for yourself, don’t forget that often so many of the skills we use in our copywriting, projects are also applicable to what we’re doing in our own businesses.
When have you successfully tackled a new challenge or expanded your skills or expertise on the go, when has your work just flowed?
And for all of these questions, how did that feel? And focusing on the feeling of those experience. This is really important because as I’m about to show you, that helps, really rewire the brain in a more substantial, way.
Some other questions that you could ask. If you are stuck as, I mean, Randall, it sounds like you’re past this now, Nolan, I think you might be as well, but for anyone who’s an idiot watching the replay, and you identified with, what those two have shared about some feelings around sales and selling, you know, some of these questions could be, for example, when did a sales conversation feel more like service, for example, or when did having making a sale result in solving someone’s problem. So trying to find things that are exceptions to the rule or the idea or the story or the narrative in your head that, you know, selling is icky or like I’m not a salesperson, like finding exceptions to that so that you can thicken that experience.
And ideally, over time, and, with repeated, focusing on these exceptions to whatever that narrative might be, building those neural pathways in your brain so that you’re more wired, quite literally, like in a physical way, to expect those experiences, and therefore to act and respond to events in a way that aligns with those rather than the more, restrictive narratives that you may have at play.
So just some quick neuroscience here, and this may be old news to some of you, but our brains do have a bias towards both encoding and retaining more negative experiences, because from an evolutionary perspective, it’s important for us to have an almost automatic response to danger. If we’re in a situation that is dangerous, we wanna be able to respond without thinking. Crossing the road, there’s a car coming at you. You wanna be able to jump out of the way, without really having to think, oh, there’s a car. Oh, it’s coming quite fast and, you know, get hit.
So for that reason, unfortunately, it is the more negative experiences, which do make more substantial neural pathways in our brains. So these are often actually called in the in the literature channel. I love this term, superhighways, because those neural pathways are so established so thick and so smooth, it actually makes it very easy, for our brains to, like, send signals and synapses down those pathways. There’s very little resistance unfortunately, they’re often thicker than the pathways that we have for more positive experiences, which of course creates a bit of a chicken and egg type scenario, because not only are we wired to, respond to those things more quickly and more readily and to just jump down that path, we’re also more wired to attend to those things. So again, it’s about how we view and interpret the world and how we respond and behave based on those interpretations.
So, the good news, as you will no doubt, know, is that our brains plastic. Right? It’s never too late to change some of the wiring in our brain.
And, the process of reauthoring, so of spending time attending to noticing reliving dwelling.
That’s funny. I feel like you really get the in life to dwell on something, but dwelling on those more positive experiences, or those exceptions to whatever more challenging narratives you have around pricing and worth and value and expertise, etcetera.
That can be visualized as a small tree, growing Well, sorry, put your little lovely heads in the way, growing an increasing number of limbs as clients notice and re experience moments that can be connected to the preferred neural network, While this network may remain thin or sketchy at first, through repeated neural linking and firing, it will progressively expand in thickness and speed of connection.
So basically all of this stuff, I know it might sound quite woo woo, but it’s based in science, and I think the really cool thing is that it’s based in like physical so stuff that if you had access to functional MRIs, you would be able to see over time those connections thickening and becoming the preferred, preferred course of response inside of your brain. So it really is about changing the way you think in order to change the way that you act.
So the last thing I wanted to just touch on here, and then let’s have a nice juicy discussion. If yes, we’ll have time, on whatever’s come up for you. So this is the last thing that I’d be shared in Slack, and she said I have this comfort around charging good people for projects and I can’t guarantee they’ll make back their investment. What if I do everything I can to make the project a success, and it’s not enough?
Is this ever something that comes up for anyone when you are either selling a project, pricing project, or delivering a project?
Yeah. I relate to this one.
Yep.
Cool. Certainly. Yeah.
Yep.
And thumbs up from Randall. Yeah. And I mean, it is one of the facts about, you know, the work that we do. Right? There’s never any one hundred and ironclad guarantee, even if you do your best work, that it’s going to get the exact results that your client wants.
So because you can never fully guarantee results, think about what you can guarantee when you’re selling your offers or your products. So maybe it’s your process or parts of it. So for example, you can guarantee. So let’s say that you’re gonna do voice of customer research or you can guarantee that the client is going to see a messaging document before you go ahead and write the first copy asset. So they’ll be, you know, on board with the messaging and where it’s come from, etcetera, etcetera.
It could be that you’re guaranteed a round of optimization. And again, there’s no guarantee that that round of optimization is going to get to the promised land of results, but of course, the guarantee that you’re going to come back in at the relevant period of time and optimize what you can, you know, with the idea of improving the results that your client is seeing, that can be a really powerful thing to guarantee. Or it could even be something like a sixty minute strategy call say mid launch, often that’s a time when clients can start flipping out because there’s that mid launch dip or one month after the website goes live or whatever makes sense for the work that you do.
So those are just some ideas, and I think Whatever it is that you do want to guarantee about the work that you do, just make sure that it’s really specific and measurable or check offable because these things give you and your prospects confidence in your ability to deliver on it. Like it’s going to be something that both you and your client can confidently and honestly say, yep, I did that. That’s done. I’ve done what I’ve promised.
And I think by doing that, it does help, you get free of the discomfort around not being able to promise hundred percent the outcomes because you are promising something that you can absolutely control.
Did I deliver this part of my process? Did I show up for that sixty minutes strategy session? Did I do that round of optimizations? Both you and your client can say, yes, and I think that removes the friction around that and allows you to step into charging rates that are appropriate for the work that you’re doing.
And this is a final note on this guarantee stuff.
If you need help thinking through, what this might look like, this could be a helpful metaphor, imagine you order eggs benedict with smoked salmon at a cafe you’re trying out for the first time, but ends up being a bit meh, like it’s just not very tasty, whatever it might be. You’ve really got no form of recall right, other than to make an agreement with yourself never to go back there to get Brecky again. But if it comes out with him, you can then let the waiter know, hey, this isn’t what I ordered, feel pretty confident that the situation will be rectified. So you want to create this kind of clarity, for your prospect or for your client with whatever guarantee you So it’s something again that’s really specific, and really easily be able been able to be checked off as like either delivered or not.
Because again, that sort of certainty really increases both buyer confidence and also seller confidence, and can help you stand behind rates that are higher, and sell the sell those things more confidently. Alright.
So I wanted to leave some time for questions and also just diving into some of this stuff because obviously mindset stuff is, often quite personal, and see one little thing in the chat here.
Mylan wraps. What’s a mylan wrap, Randall?
Well, I think it’s the myelin that wraps around your neurons to Oh. The explanation.
If I I just Yeah.
What?
Think I’m hoping that the mylan wrapped around my memory of reading this awhile back. I was hoping you could confirm that.
I actually can’t. Sorry. Mylan wraps. It might I’ll I’ll I’ll check it out for you.
No big deal. There’s no No.
But I will. I’ll check it out for you. It’s not ringing any bills, but it definitely doesn’t mean that it’s not part of this process.
So let me I’ll I’ll get back to you in Slack.
Any questions, comments, anything anyone wants to workshop in terms of, you know, their thoughts around pricing, their specific challenges, Yeah.
I got a quick question on the the guarantee kind of thing. I think it, and it wasn’t your I have in my notes here somewhere.
So this might actually be voice of coach rather than voice of consumer, but I think, I have something in here that says, when you’re presenting an offer to someone, you could say something I’m a hundred percent certain that this is where we should begin testing, right, rather than saying, I think this is a hundred percent gonna get yield these specific results. Right?
Hundred percent. Yes.
Gotcha. And that’s such a reassuring thing, I think, for both of you, and I think that’s such a great way to have coming across as the expert that you are. Right? And yet it flips the frame in a way that doesn’t set you up for trouble or your client up for disappointment down the track.
Right? Because even with all the, you know, the proper data, sometimes, you know, we just need to test a different angle, and maybe that angle does three hundred percent better than the other, just off some small difference. Right?
Yep. Hundred percent. Love that. That was a very easy question.
That’s good, Noel. I like that. That’s nice.
Right. Voice of Coke, BOC. I love that we dove into some neuroscience because, my thing is all about, like, behavioral marketing strategy. And I’m reading this book right here. It’s all about behavioral science. It talks about some of that stuff you were going into.
So I was just like, wow, that’s crazy that I literally have this my address, you were talking about that.
How good? What a good coincidence?
Go ahead.
Anything else coming up for anyone?
More of a a thought to share rather than, like, a a question, but I do like, how you framed it is, and and additional to just like the ROI, how there’s a lot of not necessarily tangible measurements that go into your pricing, but things like, you know, the experience and the product. Right? And for my a dimensionalization thing. Like, I was just in Disneyland a few months ago, and, like, there’s a thing you can buy there where it’s, like, you can build your own lightsaber. Right? And it’s, like, a pretty good quality lightsaber. You’re mainly buying the experience because you can buy a a similar way higher quality light saber for much less.
Yes. Oh, yeah. I love that. I also really wanna go and do that.
Sorry. Yeah.
It seems like I missed out on it. I was like, okay, next time.
That’s the way it is.
Oh, but yeah, definitely.
It’s, I think, yeah, the advice that, like, good pricing is all about ROI, I think, Again, that’s, like, not nowhere near nuanced, nuanced enough, to be a helpful statement, but also I think it puts you in the frame of reference of thinking about money whereas, of course, ROI is often about so much more than money.
So it’s just about finding what the what the value in that service or that offer or that product is, and yeah, being open to that being a largely intangible thing.
So, you know, for example, I mean, coaching is a great example. Right? I mean, yes. Often, you know, when you work with a coach, that will end up in you making more profit, more revenue, etcetera, but the process by which that happens is often a bit indirect because it’s working on things like your mindset or it’s working on things that might be more process related. So yeah, just thinking through what that looks like for the work that you do can be really helpful, not just in you being able to set a better price, but also in you being able to communicate, the value and the position of your offer.
Right. No. That makes sense for sure. And also, like, to touch more on the the ROI, there’s like a a cost, not necessarily return, but, like, say, like, I think Ryan was talking about one of his workshops when you’re, like, productizing one of your services.
Not only needs to be simple for them to understand what it is. It needs to be simple for them to implement because you have to take into consideration the time and the team’s bandwidth, right, that you’re sending this over. And, like, what other systems do they have to do to juggle in your thing that’s gonna help them out. Like, is that gonna be easy?
Is that something they can do just like that?
Like, we have to consider that cost as well.
And another ROI, I think maybe it could even be like relationship with a client. Right?
Mhmm. Yeah. Definitely. Yes.
I mean, the experience, I guess, of working with can also be hugely valuable, or it could be hugely taxing, right, if that is not a good fit.
So, yeah. Right.
I’m sorry, but I’ve been like I had a headache so it’s like horizontal up right now.
I’m just gonna say you look lovely.
Yeah.
I know.
I was, like, lying down.
I have this has been really great, Christy. Thank you so much. No problem. I have kind of a more specific, like, scenario situation.
That I posted about in Slack, a few weeks ago I think you responded to because I was like, we’re coming up on the end of the year.
I was going to raise my rates for Mhmm.
Specifically my VIP days. Like, I’m fine with my big project rates.
Like, I’m raising those all the time when I, like, I feel good about those rates.
Awesome.
But I’ve just done the same VIP day, right, since I started doing them. Basically, I’ve done so many, and I even had, like, I think I shared in Slack, like, I had this client who had been doing regular days with multiple times a month for the past year straight, and he always he’s like, you need you you’re way under charging. You should be charging way more, like, gotten tons of results for him. Like, he’s like, you’re my secret weapon. You should raise your weights, not for me, of course, but for everyone else.
And, you know, and I I also, if you I just, like, haven’t because they’re so easy for me to sell. I don’t I don’t know if that’s really like a a mindset thing in terms of what I think it’s worth. It’s more just I think a fear of like that people just won’t pay. I don’t know.
I don’t know how to articulate it. It’s like people just don’t have that budget. That’s not what they’re expecting to pay and so I’m Like, okay. So I’ll just sorry.
I’m like a little incoherent because I’m have a headache, but No. Can I get through it?
So I told so I I did I doubled my rates and Joanna said to at least double them. She was like, oh, you should four or five x them. That felt too scary. So I doubled them.
And I told this client in particular.
And even though he’d said all those things, he was like, whoa, like, you know, doubling your way. It’s like, and I just didn’t didn’t say much. I was just like, yeah, you know, it’s overdue.
Mhmm.
And he had had some things. He had messaged me about wanting to do a day and then I told him I doubled my rates then he was like, okay. Let’s hold off. I need to be like smarter about how I use you. Mhmm. But now I have to hurt.
But, like, we were still in contact, but, like, he hasn’t that’s work that I didn’t get because of that.
Gotcha.
And I think I’m struggling with that because well, I mean, just post holidays, like, I was sick for all of December. It didn’t work at all. Like, got. I’m very light on clients right now.
So I’m like, I’m I’m in this weird middle ground, like, the middle ground of raising your prices where I’m like, I know my current prices, like, it’s so easy for me to sell it. Mhmm. But then raising it, I’m like, I don’t wanna raise it and then not be able to get any work. Yes.
Yes.
And I think I’m like in this.
I don’t wanna be in the scarcity mindset, but I’m also like, trying to find that balance because I had another sales call yesterday too where I know I could have sold my old rate, but I pitched the new rate And he was like, he wouldn’t say no, but it, like, gave him more pause. And, like, he has to think about it now. You know? Yes. Yes.
I don’t know.
I don’t know what my question is exactly, but just like this kind of weird in between, like, trying to figure out what the right Mhmm.
Rate is or if you have any, like, thoughts on how to navigate that.
Yeah. For sure. And I’d love to hear, Nolan Randall sorts too. So two key things came up for me.
First of all, just because something is easy, it does not mean it’s not valuable. And I think that’s the trap we all fall into. But like, oh, but it, like, takes me like no time or no effort. Like, I can’t charge.
I can’t charge, you know, five thousand dollars for that when it’s like a, you know, one thousand dollar effort.
The fact that it’s easy often just means you’re very good at that thing, and therefore the quality that the client is going to receive is actually going to be worth a lot more than what you’re charging for at the moment. So that’s maybe a mindset thing to think about. The second thing is that I wonder if you’re now in the situation, that I touched on very briefly towards the start of the workshop where you will reach a ceiling with a certain type of offer and a certain type of client. So is it that I have no doubt at all that your service is worth what you’re charging for it now.
My question is whether you’re pitching it to the wrong people, and I don’t know whether that resonates I think that was my concern originally when I posted in clap in Slack.
That was my original concern, was that, like, I feel fine charging those rates. Like, I I feel confident and what I’m delivering. I’m just not confident in the client the types of clients that are contacting me right now. And because I haven’t done any authority building, like, I’m not I only have access to a certain level of client. Yes.
So I think that’s that was my concern.
So now I’m wondering, I’m like, do I backtrack? Like, what do I do? You know, like wait until I’ve yeah. I guess that’s my that’s a good point. I think that’s the thing that’s happening right now.
Yes. I would also suggest life just on a purely practical level, you know, giving old mate who told you to raise your rates and then was like, oh, I need to think more about how the, you know, strategically, that’s how to use your time now. Getting back in touch with him, and you could even offer to help him plan that out, like, to get because I think once you get that first day rate sold at that price. Like, it’s gonna feel amazing. And you’re gonna have the proof that you can sell it. You’re also gonna have, I guess, proof of what someone gets out of that experience that price. And I think then that is almost like the window into reaching more clients at that level.
So that that’s a very practical tip, but, not only the model. Is there anything else that came up for you guys?
Well, Julian, this that sounds like this client would be an excellent, case study.
Yeah. Definitely.
In the process of doing the case study, you’d be reminding this client how much value you gave them.
Right.
And so that would be kind of a you know, soft sell reminding, like, what is missing from his work at this moment.
Yeah.
Right? So I don’t know. That might if if that’s something you like to use for, social proof.
Definitely. Yeah. The only reason I’ve held off on study for his clients was we’re still doing ongoing work together, and he’s, like, about to launch a whole another thing. So I’ve just been kinda waiting.
Until the right moment for that just because there are like more things happening.
And I do think, like, he’ll still he’s definitely still, like, not gonna not work with me anymore. It’s just like it kind of, you know, there’s a little bit of a shakeup, but I will say I so I’ve only He’s the only person I told the other other my other clients, like, they kind of come and go. But, I I had two sales calls this week, The first one was a client that, like, I even told them upfront that I was like, I don’t think this is a good fit, but they still really wanted to talk. So I was like, okay.
I’ll talk to you. Still thought it wasn’t a good fit, but, like, he was willing to pay he was, like, budget not an issue I told him the day rate, told him my project rates. He was, like, not a problem, but I still turned it down. So I guess I did technically, like, sell it without selling it, or I had someone who would be willing to sell it.
So I guess I kinda forgot about that until now.
But so I was just focusing on the ones I was trying to sell them and couldn’t, but Yep.
So, yeah, I got through some it’s just a weird what’s that?
Sorry. No. You go.
It’s just, yeah, it’s just a weird I’m in a weird in between place right now. Because my my project rates aren’t published, so I can I raise them all the time just on the sales? Like, I kinda just determine, you know, we’ll raise them. I don’t have to tell anyone or announce it. This is the first time I’ve done it where it’s like a set price that’s increasing.
Yes.
Two two quick things. First of all, I just I think it’s awesome. I think it’s so, so, so, so good that you still turned away that client, even though they would have been willing to pay the rate.
It’s never worth working with a bad fit client, even if you get the money, and you know that, but that’s just so good.
And secondly, I feel like maybe, like, a helpful way to think about what’s changed for the client who told you to raise your rates and is now sort of has not booked in another day at that rate since you raised it is it’s almost like you’ve changed the perception of yourself in his eyes. So you’ve gone from, like, you know, to use the cheese cabinet analogy again. I obviously love cheese. You’ve gone from like the super delicious like five dollar block that like didn’t just buy without thinking and like, oh my god, like, this is such a steal to, like, being the twelve dollar wheel of brie that, you know, you know, is delicious.
But like you now have to think a bit more carefully about when you’re going to invest in and and eat eat that, I guess, because it’s not as disposable.
So that’s not a bad thing, right, to increase your value and to own that is a good thing, but it has changed, I think, his perception of, like, booking and using you. So I’d definitely reach back out to him and just offer to be like, hey, like, I know you’ve got this new launch, whatever coming up, and I know that you do wanna together again, but you wanna be more strategic about how you use me since the investments increased. Like, did you wanna talk about that? Did you wanna hop on a thirty minute call and we can talk about that?
Yeah. That’s a really good that’s a really good suggestion. I’ll definitely do that.
Awesome. And let us know how it goes. I feel like sometimes the loops don’t get closed in and I’m like, oh, no. I wanna know. So please. Hello.
Yeah. Yeah. And know that was that did feel like like saying no to that other client, especially. So I I feel like I have it taken on projects before kind of with what you mentioned where it’s like, I can figure it out, but then being really it’s not so much that I don’t think I could figure it out.
It’s more just that I’ve taken on projects in the past when I’m like, I don’t have any other clients, and I know I can figure it out, but it stresses me out so much and I spend way too much time on it. And that’s the part I didn’t wanna do. I was like, I’m just not willing to be really stressed about a project even though I would figure it out because I will spend way too much time on it. You know?
Yes.
And then it’s But that’s not like the wind is like, I don’t wanna do that anymore.
I’m just not gonna take on. I’m gonna I’m gonna, like, believe that there are other things that I’m just making space for them.
So Yes.
Amazing.
Yeah.
Hey, Jill. Could you talk Jill, could you talk about your VIP day rate just for a minute or two?
Yeah. I’m actually teaching a four part in February done with you VIP day course for copy hackers. So you’ll see that coming up soon.
But, yeah, if you have is there did you have a certain question about it?
No. I again, I’m relatively new to the industry.
So I’m just wondering, like, what the general Oh, like, what it is?
Is that what you said? Just wondering what it is?
Yeah.
Oh, it’s just, it’s like a so I have my project there’s project rates that takes me, you know, six to eight weeks for a full website project. And then the my only kind of smaller offering is or someone can book me for a full day. So it’s like a full seven hours just dedicated to their project, that I have regularly. So they can kinda get on my calendar more quickly.
Understood.
Yeah.
So it’s kind of like an intensive session.
But this is basically on website copy or like, what is one of the variety of things will fall into that mix?
A variety of things. Some people do them for just one thing. I often do it for website.
Copy, but I’ll do it for smaller, like smaller projects that aren’t big enough for me to quote for. A lot of times, these plans have already worked with. So I already done all their research, and then they want something small that, like, isn’t worth my time to quote or plan. So I’ll just put it into a day or a half day.
I see. Thanks. Yeah.
Awesome. And just to maybe close a loop, julie, and so I feel like sorry, Anna. I feel like the you might be hitting up against a practical problem rather than a mindset problem because you’ve done the thing. You’ve raised the rate.
You’ve pitched it. Like, you’ve turned someone down even. So I think your mindset is correct. It’s just, yeah, you might maybe in a situation where you need to up level the people that you’re talking to in terms of prospects.
But I’d say, like, Old mate is definitely a shoe, and he just needs a nudge that was some Australian old nature shooting.
I’ll tell him that. I’ll tell him. Yeah.
So to to translate that, that means I think that that client is definitely gonna book with you. He just needs, yeah, a gentle knowledge to make that happen.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you for the yeah. Thank you for the suggestions.
No worries. Any final things from anyone?
No. Thanks for sharing. This was super helpful. Awesome. Yeah.
I appreciate you talking to you guys.
I really appreciate it. Definitely.
Yeah. Fine nice to see you all. This is great. Yeah, let’s keep chatting in slack, feel free to pin me with questions anytime. And, yeah, please let us know what happens, Dylan. I feel like the three of us will be here for other suggestions and also just keen to keen to follow the journey.
Cool. Thank you so much.
Alright, guys. Talk to you soon.
Justifying Your Copy
Justifying Your Copy
Transcript
Today’s workshop is on justifying your copy and minimizing client pushback.
And I’m keen to note for both of you, how are you justifying your copy with your clients now? Is it a process of popping on a Zoom call? Are you doing Loom, walk cruise?
Comments in Google doc, something else?
So for me personally, I don’t really have a specific process yet. I’m I’m kind of in the process of doing that. So I have quoted prices over email. I know that’s terrible.
I’ve also quoted prices over, like, a call.
I’d say about, I don’t know, fifty fifty.
Like, I’ll have the same amount of success or lack of success in both.
Okay. Alright. Cool. And this is for pricing the project rather than, justifying the copy once you’ve written it and presenting that copy to the client. Is that right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep. Okay. And what about when it does come to presenting the copy to your client or submitting the copy? Do you have a process around that as of yet?
I don’t really have a process around that, but it generally is over a call or if they’re too busy for a call, then I’ll at least send them a video justifying at least some of the sections or or the approach.
Perfect. And what about you, Stacy, if you’re sandwich free?
I, schedule I call it an approval call. So I schedule an approval call and I present to them live on the call and make changes live on the call. I I My goal is always zero changes. And a lot of the time I hit that, and sometimes I hit just a few changes. And most of the time we get them done on the call, I have a few instances when there is, with enterprise clients where there are a lot of people involved and that usually has to be done in a Google Doc situation, just because of the nature of the the client and the way that they work but I try to avoid those if I can.
Perfect. I love so much that you frame the call in a as an approval call. I think that so clever, and we’ll talk a bit about framing in this workshop, but I think that’s genius.
And for either of you, I’m wondering, is there a place where the process of like presenting your copy feels uncomfortable or sticky or you are getting a lot of pushback or are things sort of relatively smooth smooth sailing. Let me know.
Let’s do some of the first I tend to, as I said, I shoot for zero changes, and I tend to get people, that have a a very positive response.
You know, even as that says on my website, sometimes people cry when I present their copy. So, Michael, have you do happy dance.
Perfect. I love that. And it’s the best feeling, hey, when a client has happy tears, he’s like, cool. I’ve nailed this. This is great.
And it’s not what about for you? Any uncomfortable or sticky sticky parts that you’ve experienced so far?
Generally, that happens a lot when the client is not too involved or doesn’t isn’t very communicative.
That’s why I can tend to get some pushback in the sense of like, we just don’t like this or maybe like this one get approved.
Lines related stuff. Usually, if the client has been like really good to deal with throughout the project, then by the end of it, I I I’ve never really had pushback on the topic itself.
Perfect.
I love that you brought up the phrase. We just don’t like this. That is Neema most frustrating if that is ever to hear from a client because it’s like, okay. Well, we need to talk about this need to unpack it. You know, we need to about how this copy is informed and crafted specifically for your project and your goals.
So, I love that you brought that up because that definitely I have a tax client that I I presented to recently.
Yeah. They they weren’t even interested in getting on a call, so I had to loom video most of it.
And and some of the feedback I got back is that like, the owner just doesn’t like it. Like, it’s a tax firm, redesign of the whole website, and he’s just like, hey, I’m just not gonna do the section period. So, like, Give me something else that I can plug in here. So we got stuff up.
Oh god. Okay. Alright. Cool. We’re gonna talk talk about those kinds of comments in this workshop too because I know that they can be incredibly frustrating, not an enjoyable part. Of working with a client and also often a really big roadblock to getting your best copy out into the world and performing as you’ve intended. So, we’ll definitely dive into that.
I think the thing I wanna start off this workshop with is just by really clearly stating the benefits of being really proactive and your approach in terms of justifying and presenting your copy rather than being reactive. So getting on the front foot, and a sort of nipping objections and push back in the bud before they arise rather than waiting for the client to tell you that they don’t like something, they don’t like how sounds. I’m not sure about how it’s gonna perform with their people, etcetera, etcetera, and then having to get defensive about that process. So Stacy, it sounds like you’re all over this, and Adnan, it sounds like it depends a little bit on client, and you’re still sort of finding the right, process in which to sort of set this up. So let’s talk a little bit about that.
Now the main reason that it is so beneficial to be really proactive when it comes to, justifying and presenting your copy is because of something called the confirmation bias, which you’ve probably heard of before, but in case not, it’s the tendency that we all have to search for and interpret information in a way that confirms our pre existing ideas and beliefs, while simultaneously dismissing any information that doesn’t.
So in terms of how this comes into play, with, copy and, presenting it, etcetera, here are some examples. So if you have a client who comes to you with the belief that good copy is written, so for example, that copywriting is more a creative process, that it’s more about having a really correct grammar, or having words that sound nice.
That’s gonna be a client who’s likely going to have, a lot more questions, resistance, etcetera, to the copy that you present, because as we all know here, good copy is assembled. Right? It’s pieced together through that voice customer research process.
It’s really informed. It’s much more a science than an art. So just an example there power client with that first belief is probably going to present more challenges, in the justification process than a copy with that second belief.
As another example, because I saw in Slack, that I think it was Abby and maybe Kate. I can’t remember now, who noted that, one of the most common, stumbling blocks they come up against when they are presenting their copy to their client is the question of length, like this is too long.
So if you have a client who comes in to work with you with the existing belief that the most effective sales pages are short and punchy, perhaps because that’s just what they’ve seen from brands they admire, whatever the reason it might be, they’re someone who’s again probably going to be a bit more of a challenge to work with than someone who comes to you with the belief that the most effective sales pages match the ideal prospects level of awareness and are built accordingly.
As a final example, if you have, a client who comes to you hiring you as someone just to get the job done, so this copywriters can help me get my website up live or get this email sequence set up and ready to send versus someone who comes to you, because they see you with an expert.
Again, they’re gonna be someone who’s gonna be a bit more resistant to, some of the copy that you’re likely going to present them with. Because they don’t have that base level understanding that you’re an expert in what you do. So of course this last point really, folds into and works alongside of everything you guys are working on inside of CSP at the moment in terms of really building your authority, finding your red thread, etcetera, and hopefully, if you haven’t already had the experience over the next few months, you’ll start to have it more often when people come to you, so when they’re coming to you as an inbound inquiry for working with you because they’ve heard you on a podcast or they’ve seen your article promoted somewhere, or they’ve heard great things about you in some community that they’re part of this is going to be, in most cases, a much smoother process in terms of having your copy approve with no changes, because they’re going to come into this relationship with the expectation that you’re an expert, you know, your stuff, you know, maybe I don’t fully understand you know, what you’re saying about this headline here, but I trust you enough, and I trust your knowledge enough that I’m happy to go with it and at least test it.
So Hopefully, as you can see, it’s not just your justification about the copy in the moment, whether that’s, on a zoom, in a loom, or in a Google doc, that matters, but it’s also the content you publish and promote the public conversations you have. So for whatever social media forms you might be on any interactions you have there in the public sphere that people can see, sort of, how your brain works, what your expertise is about, things about your process, about where you’re coming from with your approach to the specific kind of copy that you write, and it’s also the way you handle your sales and onboarding that really helps, first of all, act like a bit of a siren call to people who, are open to or share the beliefs that you have about what makes copy effective, and also help really setting that bias in your favor so that when it comes to presenting the copy that you’ve assembled for them, you know, they’re more, likely to look the evidence that confirms the belief that, okay, this is voice of customer.
And I know voice of customer data is really key in conversion copy.
So it’s all of these things coming together.
So if we start to look at this, in this much wider lens in terms of, okay, so if we’re starting this conversation and helping to set this bias with our clients and our prospects from the very beginning, from our marketing and how we position ourselves, you know, it’s really important to do that because again, if you do the work from the beginning, you can actually set the confirmation bias in your and your clients are gonna look for evidence that confirms what they already think and know and believe about your expertise and the copy that you’re writing.
Now one of the best ways to start doing this is through a skill called framing, and Stacy, your example of even naming the calls, approval calls. So when you’re presenting your copy, that is such a good example of framing because what that does is that the frame of reference for the call as, okay, this is the time and space where we’re going to just approve the copy. It’s like a check, a checkbox process. It’s not like a call where we’re going to talk about what you like and what you don’t, it’s me telling you what works and why. So it’s what really simply framing is just a way to set the scene or set the focus for what’s follow.
And as well as doing this with the copy itself. Of course, you can also do this with how you position yourself.
So as an example, obviously, I’m the mindset coach here in CSP, so some things that might be relevant for you guys to know about me are that I spent three years lecturing various psychology and psychotherapy subjects at a university here in Sydney.
I have a bunch of various articles and publications in which I’ve been quoted as an expert source for various psychology and psychotherapy, topics, and I also have a lot of hands on experience working with counseling and therapy clients, you know, in real world scenarios, and have also managed various counseling practices too over the years. Could tell you that stuff is a way to frame my expertise, or I could tell you other things about myself, like the fact that I’m once dressed up as a fart, that I didn’t get my driver’s license until I was thirty two years old because I hit a pole in my first, driving test when I was seventeen or that I have a thing for getting inside of boxes.
Now, obviously, the lot of three examples, don’t have any bearing on my expertise or the value I bring to the table but they do have a bearing on the perception of that, right, how likely you are to actually trust my expertise, and see me as the right person for the job. So obviously a bit of a silly example, but I just wanna share that as a way to illustrate that effective framing isn’t about changing the facts. It’s just about shining the spotlight on the right pieces.
So to help you think about how to do this in your positioning, and I’m sure these are questions you’re already thinking about as part of the red thread process and as part of planning out your authority building for the the coming quarters, you know, what expertise and experience do you have that qualifies you for the work you do? What is it about your process that gets gets results, because often if a client can buy into your process and your way of working, that goes a long way too in helping them understand where copy is coming from, and the process behind actually getting that on the page.
Another question for you to mull on too is how you can communicate or leverage or already from the first point of contact with your prospects or clients. Right? So how can you make sure in a way that’s not arrogant or annoying that this client knows that you are a really qualified, expert in the specific field in which they’re looking for assistance with. So thinking about all these things, and being able to communicate those with your prospects and your clients from that sales and onboarding phase is really going to help you when it comes to presenting your copy.
As well as using framing to really present yourself and position yourself in the best light.
It is also often helpful think about some copy specific seeds you may want to plant, again, through that, content marketing, through that sales process and through the onboarding process.
So for example, you might want to be talking about the importance of voice of customer research and how to leverage that data in your copy.
I know that when I first discovered conversion copywriting back in, I think it must have been twenty seventeen, there was a phase there where I was moving from tackling copy as a more creative process to obviously, doing it as a more scientific process, with or the data involved, in getting everything really on point.
And because I was still at that stage working with clients who were viewing copy as that more like creative, like, writerly kind of process. It was a bit of a hard sell with voice of customer to begin with, obviously that changed as I leveled up and my clients also leveled up. But if you are sort of in that phase now, one thing that I found can be really helpful to help a client who’s never heard of the idea of voice of customer before to help them buy into, you know, paying you for your time while you’re engaging in that research process is to say something like, hey, remember the last time that you were in a room with someone, and they said the exact same thing you were thinking.
Like in that moment, didn’t you feel like you had an instant rapport with that person? Like, wow. We’re on the same page. Like, you understand me or you felt validated in what you were thinking about because other person has just voiced it, you know, they are the kinds of things that really good voice of customer can do in the relationship between you and your prospect.
So bringing that concept that’s quite nerdy versus customer, right? It’s quite jargonistic. We obviously know about it as copywriters, but the average business owner may not bringing that into a really relatable metaphor can be a really good way to get buy in. And again, when we’re talking about, you know, framing and planting seeds and fitting that confirmation bias in your favor, if you’re able to really communicate the value of that, then when they hear you talk about, okay, I hear this section here, like ninety percent of this is just raw voice of customer data, you know, look at the way it really, you know, speaks it in such an emotive resonant way, etcetera, etcetera, they’re more likely to accept that and you know, be happy for that to make it out into the wild rather than, look at that and say, oh, that the grammar’s not right, or, you know, it doesn’t sound doesn’t sound so nice.
Could we just change this word, so thinking about things from that perspective?
It might also be useful given that copy being too long seems to be a key objection for some people in the group, planting the seed that your copy’s length is far less important than its performance. Right? No copy ever performed well simply because it was short or simply because it was long. It’s a decision that you, the expert, will make as you do the research, as you understand the prospect, as you understand the offer, as you understand your clients’ voice, etcetera, and you bring all that together into something that is best designed to hit their goals for the project.
You may also wanna talk about the value of testing and optimization for the simple fact that I think you know, while, of course, we can present copy that is as informed as it could possibly be and is ideally going to perform well there’s almost always room for improvement. So once it’s out in the wild, once it’s been tested for a while, being able to optimize and tweak, and increase conversions in, you know, some some way shape or form. So I think the more you can also talk about that, the more likely it is that a client will be amenable or open to you saying, look, this is, what I think is going to work best.
Obviously can’t be a hundred percent certain of that, but I’m hundred percent certain that this is what we should be testing to begin with. They’re more likely to buy into that to be okay with that to come along for the ride, I guess, rather than pushing back, and turning your copy into something that looks very, very different to what you’ve actually written in the first place.
Let me get down a level and talk about some handy skills that you can use to actually justify your copy. So when you’re having those conversations with your clients, think it’s always so important to reinforce the why. So to join the dots between what you’ve done and why it matters. So, you know, how this decision with this section here or this header here or this CTA being where it is, how that’s actually going to serve your client’s goals. Because what that does is clarify what’s in it for them, and of course as human beings, they all like to know what’s in it for us all the time, and therefore increases buy in. So magic phrases here to use are things like so that because that wave, which allows us or which allows you to. And as an example of how this can look even in a Google doc, because I know that not always do you have the chance as you’ve both mentioned to actually get on a call with your client live, and walk things through.
This is a half day rate that I worked on with the client. It was only a couple of months ago. Yeah, we got September.
So my Google docs, in these situations where there’s not time to do, a a call to get to get everything signed off on, my Google Docs are littered with these kind of explanations. And you can see here, like, how much y is in this one. So These are all from your client intake forms under a great example of the voice of customer data we were talking about this morning by communicating your ideal prospects prostrations in their own words, a copy resonates with them more deeply, letting them know they’re in the right place and the struggles are normal and therefore solvable, Since you know exactly who you want to target for this intake, there’s no mention of the kinds of challenger studio owners outside of small town independent studios face. So things like franchising, high staff turnover, etcetera. It’s another way to highlight who the program is and isn’t for, so you spend less time dealing with people you don’t want to work with.
So you can see in that justification and explanation there, there’s so many reasons why what the client is seeing is right there on the page. And I think when you are able to justify things really clearly and link them back to the goals that you’ve spoken about with your client, obviously the chances of them pushing back on that are going to get smaller and smaller, and the chances of you being able to walk away without having to make any changes or any tweaks to your copy then having that copy go into the wild and performing really well, like they’re all really high. So just an example of what’s explaining the why it can look like.
I have also found, for me and for a lot of my coaching clients as well, it’s incredibly useful to use metaphor, to help explain unfamiliar things. So, for example, the voice of customer metaphor that I gave for, you know, when someone has said something that you were thinking at the exact same moment. So the idea here is to liken something unfamiliar to something that’s inherently known or understood.
Because that provides a really compact and memorable way of expressing unfamiliar or difficult concepts or ideas, and it also leverages the power of a known experience So it aids understanding or buy in in a way that literal explanations can’t. So jargon often is an enemy, I guess, in the justification process because if you’re not speaking in terms that your client knows or understands, it can be really hard for them to, like, feel comfortable understanding what you’re talking about, and therefore putting that out, you know, with their business attached to it, putting that out onto the internet or into letterboxes or whatever, wherever your client is using that your copy and your marketing Another metaphor that I think can be helpful, and this is particularly when you’re having conversations with a client about the length of copy or copy being too long can be, okay, imagine that you’re a fly on the wall at say a car, a car yard, and you’re watching one salesman, having conversations throughout the day trying to sell cards to different people.
Imagine if that’s if that salesman was having the exact same conversation with every single person who came through the door, you know, because your sales page is your salesperson for this offer, you know, there needs to be a bit of nuance in there and there needs to be enough information that your ideal prospect can come in and get what they need to make an informed decision. So this page isn’t this long just because I wanna force everyone to sit at their computer ten minutes and, and, you know, and read the whole thing, it’s this long because it has the information that your prospect needs to make that informed decision and to make it confidently, whether they do want to take the step, whether that’s joining your list or signing up to your thing or buying your product.
And you can also talk here about the fact that as a copywriter, you’re leveraging things like section heads and appropriately placed CTAs to give people the pathways they need when they might need it. Just like the salesman at the car shop, car shop at the car yard, will also probably give different people different ins and outs to taking that next step. Would you like to have a test drive now? Or, okay, well, should we sign the papers? So thinking about that too can just be a nice way for people to understand why something is the length it is.
As a very small example, this is taken again from sales page. I think from a day rate, I think it might have been last year, but the client was asking for the FAQ section, what do you think about having them be in drop down menu form, versus having all of them and their answers on full display. And I’ve said option two for sure, FAQs are such a missed opportunity on sales pages, it’s a last chance of persuasion, not a simple bucket for WES and Watts.
If it helps think about the last time Lovely faces are blocking there we go. You searched, for information on deliveries and returns.
Chances are that page had more questions or bits of intel than you needed, you probably would have scanned down to find what you were after. And if the piece of intel you needed wasn’t there, chances are you abandoned your cart rather than going to the effort of contacting the store. So again, just a way of putting, your point across in a way that’s really relatable and easy to grasp for your client, that going to increase the chances that they’re going to be very happy with the decision and the justification that you’re presenting them.
You can also put put it back on them. So in cases where you get a request for a change, or you’re just like, oh, this is a terrible idea.
You’re asking a question. So for example, how many of your prospects do you think would understand this word with the intention of getting your client to realize or articulate something you already know or suspect This can be such a handy skill to use, because it’s far more powerful than simply telling them because it’s helping them draw their own conclusions about something rather than trying to tell them what’s correct. So when delivered with curiosity and not SAS, stiff condition, logic, objection, and create space for new understanding, So as an example, this is from a sales page I wrote years ago, the client said, thanks, Kirsty. It looks great. Wondering what you think about weeding this in somewhere in the section that’s describes the course, the watchful lighthouse for your next level.
Obviously, not a great phrase, and not one that I would wanna have on a sales page, but they’ve said our previous contact manager came up with it and it’s on a lot of our collateral.
So my response here was I’d love to hear you talk me through it so I can help you make the right call. What does it mean? What will someone think or feel when they read it? So this is me putting it on them rather than telling them straight out what I think, and the response I got was, you know, Amber and I sat with this neither of us could answer. I guess it’s about keeping an eye on obstacles, but that does seem like a weird way to say it. Let’s scratch it. And great because that meant that they basically justify themselves out of making a change was not going to aid the copy or its performance.
A final pep talk before we can, discuss things in more detail and get into any nitty gritty or specific scenarios you two have. The truth is that you can’t control what your client decides to do with the copy you present, but you can control how you justify your work so that it has the best possible chance of making it out into the world as intended.
So in those situations where you have to work hard to make your case, mull on this, Ultimately, will your client be happier if they get their preference or if they get results? And I think keeping this in mind can really help in those situations where your mindset gets a bit wobbly if you’re put on the spot to justify something, you know, remember this, they’ve hired you to get results, not to be a yes man or a yes woman.
Remember that you’re actually on the same team as your client, so don’t be afraid to remind them that hitting their goal is good for your business too. Right? Of course, you wanna provide them with copy and strategy that’s going to help them be a really great case study for you because that’s great for them, and it’s also going to be great for you to leverage in your as a case study or a testimonial or social proof or whatever it might be. So I think keeping these things in mind can be really helpful and take some of that fear and some of that heat and some of those nerves out of any of those conversations where you are in a situation where you’re on a back and forth about a particular piece or section of your copy.
Alright. Any questions or any specific situations you wanna troubleshoot?
Hang on. Let me escape this so I can see your faces in a bigger way.
There we go.
Any questions, guys? And don’t feel obliged. Don’t feel like you have to think of something, but we have lots of time and lots of opportunities. So if there’s anything I can help with, just let me know.
I just wanted to say that I enjoyed your, your take on all of that. There were lots of really good tid tidbits in there. So thank you.
Oh, my pleasure.
Is there anything else I can help you guys with, like, anything you wanna use? Cause we have half an hour still. Is there any time, like, anything CSP related that I can help you think through, talk through?
I didn’t come prepared with any questions. So I I don’t have anything on my mind that I wanna think through or talk through.
No. That’s all good. No worries. Well, I’m always in Slack too if you think of something later.
What about you? Yeah.
I don’t have any specific questions either, but definitely really found your talk beneficial. Like, I I liked how you talked about metaphor as well. I think the framing part and the metaphors are definitely something and, you know, it’s actionable.
So Awesome.
Good. Yes. And feel free to pinch those metaphors too. Like if they if they feel like they’re gonna work with connect with your clients, like, they’re all yours to take and use. And again, I just wanna say it’s tasty how much I love that you call your walk through call the approval call. I think that’s genius.
I’m gonna compliment you.
Thank you.
You know, I I can’t I can’t remember who I got that from, and maybe my colleague Erica. It was one of the I got it from another, another storybrand, certified guide who who used it first. So I can’t claim to be the originator of that. But ever since I heard somebody do it, I went, of course, why have I why have I not been doing that all along?
Yes. Genius. Oh, well, you’ve been to trace it to us. So thank you.
Yes. Everyone should do the approval call. I even have it. I mean, I, you know, here’s here’s what’s gonna happen. We’ll do this and then this, and then we’ll let’s go ahead and schedule your approval call. I schedule the approval call at the end of the of the intake call.
So Yep.
Perfect. I do that too. With all my calls from my projects, everything’s booked in as soon as they sign their proposal, just so we know what’s coming up when and what the purpose of each interaction is. Partly because of framing, but also because I’m someone who just likes to know what’s coming up next, and I love a good deadline.
You know, I do. I have one question.
You know, as I ninety ninety nine percent of the time, everything goes awesome. I had one client this past year who, you know, what what do you do when the lawyer starts editing your copy?
Not and not just because of legal review because, you know, I don’t know. They just thought that they knew better and rewrote everything.
So the copy that I wrote ended up being, like, ninety percent rewritten at which time I mean, I just kind of disengaged completely and let let them do what they wanted to do, but I’m curious how you would handle a scenario like that.
Yeah. So just to check, it wasn’t for compliance reasons. It was just No.
It’s not for compliance reasons. They were, one of the you know, one of the co founders of the company and just, you know, thought that they could write it better.
Yes.
I feel for you. I feel like that can happen. I’ve never had it with a lawyer, but with, yeah, co founder or with a designer sometimes, if the designer tells the client, but they think this will look better, you know, if it’s only if they take this section out, whatever, and you’re like, no. You need this section.
This is an important section. So I think the conversation there should be, you know, delivered obviously with tact, but something that communicates the fact that you know, okay, I, you know, I understand that you, obviously, you know, you’re tied so closely to this business as the co founder, like, I can really understand that you, you know, you want to really have a say in what makes it out into the world. I just wanna remind you that you’ve hired me for this specific job because of my expertise, you know, I would never try and advise you on on the legal aspects of your business. You know, at the end of the day, the call is yours.
Obviously, it’s your business, but the copy I presented really is the copy that I think will help you hit your goals in the best possible way on the timeline, you know, etcetera, etcetera. So communicating that kind of message, obviously the way you communicate it is quite important because you don’t wanna come off sort of combative and dismissive, but I think it is key to remind them that, you know, you’ve been hired specifically for the copy of the strategy, you know, you would never I would never, you know, when it’s a designer, like, you know, god, I don’t know how to design a sales page to save my life, but, you know, I would never try and advise on that.
So just remind them what they’re paying for, I think, is is really the best you can do. And, like, as you said Stacy, like, there are some situations, and there are some clients that are just gonna do what they’re gonna do regardless, but I think if you know that you’ve made the best case that you can for copy that you’ve written, like that really is where your control ends in that scenario, and sometimes you do just have to let it go, and it really sucks.
Yeah. Yeah. I have a another, another, colleague in the in the guide community who He has a thing. He calls it the push back once rule.
He will he will do his very best to push back once And then after that, you know, if they keep insisting, I mean, they’re the client. It’s their decision.
Yes.
You can’t save them from themselves.
That’s right. You can’t.
You can’t. And I think if they’re that kind of client, so, you know, you just kind of, yeah, you just have to roll with it and let it go as best you can I mean, the fact that ninety nine percent of the time you’re getting no or very few requests for changes or pushback in anything, I think that shows that you’re doing a phenomenal job?
So I’d say just keep doing what you’re doing.
And, you know, if you if you need help, if you get another lawyer who tries to step in, post something in Slack.
Hopefully, that’s not gonna happen again. Oh, man. I had I hope that that’s, hopefully, that’s a once in a lifetime scenario.
I mean, lawyers by nature. They love to redline things. That’s what they do.
That’s right. It was I’ll be like, yes. I’m in my, like, my happy place. Any lost questions, guys?
Not for me.
I’m okay as well.
Okay. Alright. Well, I guess we’ll end things there then. Thank you so much for showing up. It was nice to see you. Would love to see you both. Enjoy some time off over the next week or two.
And yeah, I’ll see you guys in Slack, I think I’m also doing a copy review tomorrow too because I don’t know if either of you will be there, but if you are, I’ll see you then.
Yeah, we’ll be in touch.
Okay.
Have a great day.
Bye. You too. Bye.
Crafting a Highly Effective Guarantee
Reducing Risk: Crafting Highly Effective Guarantees
Transcript
So hopefully everyone watching this on the replay, I hope you have got your worksheet, for this training at the right because we’re going to be referring to this, as I go.
I’m very excited to jump into guarantees with you because I know that for a lot of you in this group, the work that you’re doing not only in this program but also currently in the intensive means that you are in the process of finding your offers or even creating entirely new ones, raising your rates and also doing things like looking at, high value retainers for possibly the first time.
And I think that whenever you do something new, whether that is selling something at that higher price point or selling a new offer or working with a new kind of client.
When you do something for the first time, there’s always a leap of faith you have to take, to do the thing. And of course it’s my job to coach you over that. Because a huge part of mindset I think is that once you are doing the thing then you have the proof that you can do it, which, of course, can help, reduce, the sting of those mindset gremlins, as you move through your business.
So with that in mind, as you’ll know from the worksheet and from Sarah’s post, this workshop is all about crafting highly effective guarantees for your offers.
And this is really key because obviously an awesome guarantee will not only remove or reduce risk for your prospect to the point at which they feel really confident, opting into your offer and making that purchase, but they will also remove or reduce risk for you if you’re feeling a little bit wobbly about putting an offer out there or putting a price point out there for the first time. Because that means you’re not just asking your prospect to sort of trust that you’ll do the thing. You have actually an agreement in place that means that if you don’t do a certain thing, then they will get a certain thing in return. So the means of the exchange is really clear. And this is something that can really just help in a practical sense, you do one of those scary things for the first time.
Now, of course, the days of the super vague, if you do everything inside and don’t get the results you’re after, let me know and I’ll give you a full refund. The days of those guarantees working I think are over.
Although I do feel like there was a weird time in the late 20s where they did work for some offers.
But what I’m seeing not only in my own business but in my clients’ businesses and the work I do for them, what I’m seeing at the moment in terms of guarantees that work are those that are really hyper specific guarantees and also guarantees that are really easy to action.
So I wanted to show you a few examples of what those look like. These are real examples taken from various parts of my business.
And then I will also pull up the worksheet, just to, step through, what you’re looking at so you can hopefully understand what the questions and the prompts in the worksheets are asking for.
So hang on. Let me share my screen.
So I’m on a new on a new laptop for the first time, and it means I have a fancy new Zoom with buttons in different places than I’m used to. Here we go.
Okay.
There we are. Alright. Share screen. Okay. So you should be able to see, hopefully, a guarantee written here on a green blue slide.
Let me just make that bigger so we’re hanging out it properly. Alright.
So this was a guarantee that I wrote for one of my clients and this was actually quite a few years ago now.
But this was for a program for people with hypothyroidism.
So a condition that really causes like a whole raft of physical symptoms, none of which are very appealing. So things like incredible lethargy, weight gain, infertility, really bad mood swings, that kind of vein of things.
And when I was doing the voice of customer research for this project, which was a launch, I kept finding that reliably when I was asking, you know, what was the first shift in order to start joining the program? People would say that by day four or five, they actually felt like they had an insane amount of energy, like something they hadn’t experienced, since their thyroid had started playing up.
This was repeated by everyone I spoke to in my interviews and also in the, survey that I sent out to those I couldn’t interview. It was a really common response.
And speaking with Erin, who is the lady behind this program, she backed that up. She was like, oh, yeah. People always really see that boost in energy, you know, you know, in the first within the first three or four three or four or five days. So, well, I made this into her guarantee. And as you can see here, it reads, if by day five you don’t lose a significant boost in energy, I’m talking the most alive you’ve ever felt since your thyroid decided to pack up and leave the building, just email me to request a refund. That’s how convinced I am that this program will change everything for you, all with teeny tiny baby steps that take just fifteen minutes a day.
I’ll mention here too before I pivot from here into the worksheet so you can have a look at the mechanics, of what is working here with this guarantee.
The teeny tiny baby steps were really important for this program because obviously if you’re someone who is experiencing all those symptoms that I mentioned earlier, the idea of being able to find a half hour or an hour a day or something to implement the changes you’re learning about in the course is obviously going to be overwhelming. So, this is also a really important thing to put here and this links back into the minimum viable commitment.
So I will switch screens now but it will be clunky because that is how I roll.
Here we go. So if you look to your worksheet, you will see that the first prompt here is asking you to identify what the quickest valuable win is for the offer that you’re working with.
Now hopefully quickest valuable win is a familiar term for you. It’s one of RISE genius concepts, it’s in copy school. I believe Sarah sent through, in this week’s email, the links or the sort of bookmarks to, where you can revisit it if you need to. But basically, it’s based on the idea that, as humans, we are far more motivated by outcomes, results, or rewards that are in the near term.
So even though, you know, the big picture promise of your offer might be something much grander and in the case that we just looked at, it was much grander than having more energy, that fact that that was actually still quite a huge win for people, people who have been feeling flat as a pancake for so long, that promise is really appealing because it’s in such the near future. They can imagine that in five days from now, oh wow what if I do actually have that energy? That’s a really compelling promise to offer them. So when you’re thinking through this for your own offers, obviously, I’ve got here some just check points for you to make sure that you have actually identified the quickest valuable win. So making sure that it is actually quick. Right? And really the sooner the better.
Making sure that it’s also valuable. So being able to answer the question of why does that actually matter? Because if you answered that then you may have identified a quick win but it may not be powerful or meaningful enough to actually make that guarantee pack a punch.
The other thing that needs to be, here I think, and this is only in my experience, but I mean it definitely works, is that it needs to be measurable or demonstratable.
Because if it’s neither of those things, there is a bit of room for interpretation into whether your customer has actually got their end of the bargain. So the question here, how will you, you and or your client customer know they’ve actually hit this win?
And for the example that I just shared, the thyroid program, that was actually part of the fifteen minutes a day work that people went through. There was a three question check-in every day and one of those questions was how’s your energy today? It was a really simple Likert scale. I think it was even framed in frowny face to really smiley face. So a way for people to capture that information and also importantly a way for the course creator to capture that information.
In that case it was really simple, really quick, really effective and I’m sure for most people they had forgotten that that was the guarantee when they were answering those questions.
But that’s just one example to hopefully help your brain tick over. I’ve got a couple more examples too but I’ll just talk through these last, this last point on this page before I dive back in, to some guarantees.
So for DIY offers, so that’s things like courses or digital products only, I think it’s also really important that the guarantee requires a minimum viable commitment from your prospects.
So what do they actually have to do to realize this quickest valuable win?
And, again, this is a glorious concept from the brain of rye. But if you need a refresher, basically, it is all about the fact that, you know, your most most of your prospects are not going to be, you know, the gold standard of person when it comes to a course or digital product in that, you know, some sure will do, like, absolutely everything that’s available to them, take up every opportunity, devote the right number of hours, etcetera, etcetera. But for the average prospect, the idea of having to do that to get a result is quite overwhelming and is often reason for them not to purchase. So you need to think about how is it actually, you know, a reasonable effort on their part.
So for example, I mean, in this case, with the thyroid program guarantee, it referenced that fifteen minutes a day. So that is a way to really reinforce that hey, this is actually quite doable. Like on the sales page and in the emails, I talked about, you know, being able to do that, you know, first thing in the morning or even over your lunch break. So talk on the bus on the way to work. So Finding ways where you could make that really actionable and feel very approachable.
So as another example, like if you are trying to build this out for some sort of, course or workshop, obviously, it is much more appealing for your prospect to hear that you will have this quickest valuable win by the time you’re seventeen minutes into the first module, rather than by the time you’ve watched all the modules and done all the worksheets, because that can feel like a reason not to buy. So hopefully that makes sense. If you don’t have any questions on any of this, by the way, because I’m talking to myself here, please, please, please ping me in Slack. I’m so happy to unpack this further, to help it make sense, to help make it really actionable. So do not hesitate.
If we have a look at another guarantee, just to again get some more ideas flowing for what might be in front of you. This is a guarantee that I had for one of my own offers, which was a launch service.
So, a service that I actually marketed in what I think of now as quite an aggressive way. I the sales page was actually a teardown, although I hate that term, but that’s what it was, of, someone’s launch. And it was a personality here in Australia who’s quite a big deal. She just stepped into the online course market. I think it was six months prior.
And her launch strategy, her sales page, her emails, had many opportunities for optimization. So the sales page for this offer was actually that and then I segued into the offer, which explains why the first sentence of the guarantee here is if I can’t identify at least three key opportunities, like the ones above, for optimization during your next launch, I’ll shimmy your money straight back to you along with an apology for the hassle. No awkward email exchange required.
So this is an example of what a guarantee can look like for a one to one service.
And again, you know, this win is quite quick and valuable because the service itself is quite quick. It was a sixty minute launch day brief call, so as soon as they booked in they filled out their intake form, I then went through all their data, all their stats, all their thoughts about the launch, and then we had a sixty minute call where we could discuss that and I could feedback my findings.
So knowing that they would have at least three key opportunities for optimization by the end of that call was appealing because my prospect for this offer was someone who had launched, you know, more than likely, you know, two or three times. Something wasn’t clicking or something wasn’t working as well as they wanted it to, but they couldn’t pinpoint what that thing was. So this idea of being able to have real clarity around what they should focus on next time to yield some better results and yield some better conversions was highly appealing.
The other thing to point out here is that, obviously, this is really easily measurable, and I can do the measuring here. Like, if I don’t have at least three opportunities for optimization, like, I will know that, which is why I can also offer in this guarantee that, you know, there’s no awkward email exchange required because I’ll be able to see that. So it’ll be just on me to say, hey, I’m so sorry.
I could not meet my minimum standard for success with this offer for you. I’ve just refunded your money.
Which is probably a good segue into talking about some of what is on the second page of your worksheet for this workshop.
So this page here is all about what you’ll provide if your offer doesn’t deliver.
And as a quick note here, you don’t always need to offer a refund. There are absolutely other things you can offer, in the place of just returning someone’s money. And I think when it comes to this, it’s really helpful to think about the role that the offer you’re working with is playing in your business ecosystem.
So for example, let’s say it’s the first time you are trialing out your retainer offer.
It may be that it is worth it for you to get insight and experience into how this works in real terms to offer that if you can’t meet a certain benchmark of optimization after say three or six months, you know, that you will provide two months free.
Or if you are, working this through with, say, a bigger project, but, you know, it’s still a clearly defined project and one that doesn’t roll on, it might be that they don’t have to pay their final fifty percent if you can’t reach whatever the thing is that you’ve offered as a quickest valuable win for them.
It could also be that you may offer additional access to you. So maybe you offer an additional coaching session with someone.
You know, so extra hands on help can obviously, be really appealing depending on the offer.
Having said that, if you are looking at what to offer for a guarantee for something that is designed to help you really scale your business, so a one to many offer like a a course or a digital product that doesn’t really require any real time input from you for delivery, it probably doesn’t make sense to offer something like an additional one to one session with you, because that sort of defeats the purpose of that offer, if that makes sense.
Again, if any of this is confusing, please please please reach out in Slack, and I’m so happy to talk through it in a different way, that will hopefully resonate. So, sorry that was a lot of talking. So when you are thinking through what this is, two things here to check it. So make sure it’s compelling.
You know, why why is this actually a really compelling, enticing guarantee or exchange for your prospect? Is it compelling enough?
You know, you need to be able to look at this and say clearly, yes. It is. It really makes the option to purchase this for my ideal prospect a no brainer. That’s really what you’re aiming for here. The other thing that I think is incredibly important to think about and I think can really impact the effect your guarantee has on selling your offer is is it frictionless? So how can you make this easy for your client or customer to ask for if your offer fails to deliver?
I think there are far too many guarantees out there that really put the onus on the customer themselves to activate it. And of course I understand why that is, but I think what that can actually do is devalue the guarantee even if otherwise the exchange is quite appealing.
So as an example, I run a copywriting course called Braincamp. I think I’ve run it since twenty eighteen now. So a long time. But ever since I started, I’ve actually emailed people, like, two days before the guarantee period ends to check-in with them to see how they’re doing and let them know, you know, hey. Here’s your chance to reach out if you feel like, you’re not getting what you came for.
So just an example. But I also think that so much of business is built on reputation.
Particularly when you’re gaining traction and making a name for yourself in the space. So anything you can do to really stand by your guarantee and stand by the fact that you want to do some really awesome work with really awesome people and you wanna make sure that it’s coming off, I think that pays dividends one hundred percent.
Alright. Let me flick back to here, so we can have a look at one more guarantee.
This one was one I wrote for a Client who works, she’s like a virtual COO she calls herself. So she works to help people set up automations and systems in their business, to help them save time and increase productivity.
Her client is any creative professional, so copywriter, designer, podcast editor, anyone like that. But basically people who have repeatable processes in their business that they’re feeling bogged down by and really want be able to automate or outsource.
This was for a program that she was beta testing for the first time. So, she for added context, just in case it’s relevant, she was just coming back for maternity leave and she was looking for ways to sort of leverage her now more limited time in her business.
So was turning or had turned her one to one offering into an online course so that she could still serve people, ideally to get the same outcomes, but do it with a much lower time and energy investment from herself for the actual delivery of that of that service.
So the guarantee that we landed on was this. If you haven’t been able to set up a high end for them, low touch for you, onboarding automation for at least one of your offers fourteen days from now, I want to know. Email me directly, and there’s a script you can copy paste below to make it as easy as possible because I know reaching out to someone to let them know their program hasn’t delivered can feel incredibly awkward. And I’ll reply with the link to my calendar so we can book a call and work it through together. In other words, there’s no way you’re moving to the next month feeling as bogged down in your business as you are right now.
So to break this down with the concepts we’ve just looked at from that worksheet, quick is valuable when, you know, fourteen days after starting the program that they can have the onboarding automation for their for one offer. And most of them would choose probably their primary offer, like uploaded, done, running basically on autopilot, to open up some more time and space for them within their business to do the things that are more important than doing that task live.
It is very easy for a customer to activate this guarantee. And I actually do have the script for that email on the next slide, which I’ll show you just in case you wanna have a look at what that looks like.
So, you know, the thought of them being like, oh, this is actually a good guarantee, but, god, would I am I the kind of person who would actually go out of my way to, you know, to let Lauren know? Like, I don’t know. You know, that that worry is taken away from them.
The exchange here, so book a call and work it through together. So the reason that, my client and I landed on this as, her offer for or her part of the guarantee is because this was a beta test of this offer. So she really wanted, one, proof that it worked so that she could launch it and sell it at scale in the future, And also to social proof for marketing. So, for her, it was more valuable to be able to spend a bit of extra time with anyone who didn’t get to this quickest valuable win for whatever reason so she could find out why, what was missing from the program, she could optimize from there and also so that she could ideally get some really good social proof to help her with future launches and sales and eventual evergreening.
So just another very different example and hopefully something that can give you something else to pull from as you’re looking at your office suite or your client’s office suites and trying to really work out what fits.
Oh, and I’ll just show you here too. Sorry, this is copy pasted from a launch email that I wrote for her. But in the PS I included that guaranteed script and this is what it looks like just in case is an idea you want to pinch for yourself.
PS, here’s that non awkward guaranteed script just in case you need it. Hey, Lauren. I haven’t been able to set up that onboarding automation like you promised. Can you please send me that link to your calendar so we can get it sorted?
So hopefully, as you can see, that’s quite a compelling thing to include in a in a sales email, because it really closes the loop. It really reinforces that, she means this guarantee and she wants you to activate it if you do not get the thing that she has promised.
So I think all of these things make this guarantee real, tangible, precise, specific, all those things that I spoke about at the top of this workshop, that are really working, to cement and increase conversions. I think particularly in this era where, you know, world economies and all those sorts of things are not ideal. Right? People it’s not that people are afraid to spend money. People are afraid to spend money poorly. So to spend money on things that don’t work or don’t get them the things that they want. So if you can remove that risk for them, the decision to purchase becomes a lot easier.
And as I mentioned, the ability for you to stand behind and confidently sell your offer also increases, because you know you have this ironclad agreement in there. That, hey, like, I promise if I do not do x by y, I’m gonna do this. Like, I’m gonna make it good.
I want this to be a super solid investment for you and if it’s not, I haven’t done my job. So I’ve been able to have that conversation whether it’s on a sales call or whether it is a conversation that you have, on a sales page or in a launch sequence, it is really powerful. And I think can really help you and your offer stand out, and, of course, really help you sell with ease.
Now I think the only other thing that is on this worksheet is just a fill in the blanks, type thing. Obviously, this may oh, sorry. That looks funny. This may not, be the final form of your guarantee. But If you pull it all together into this, you’ll at least get a chance to see what it looks like together. And just check again, is it compelling? Is it frictionless?
Is the win here really meaningful? Does this look like something that my ideal prospect is going to respond to positively?
And does this feel like something that makes me more able to sell my big scary big hairy offers, in a new space or in a new way?
I was planning on using the rest of this time today to work through this with you, give you some time to go through the worksheet, help you troubleshoot, the guarantees, and also talk to you about the mindset side of things. So, try and dig into how or if this does change your confidence in terms of going ahead and selling that new offer or selling at that new price point, and also dig into some other things that may be lurking in there so that we can, workshop those, or build some exercises out around those for future workshops.
Because if you’re watching this it’s a replay, obviously.
I don’t think even Shane has the AI to make that sort of exchange possible, right here on this video.
But please ping me in Slack. I would love to help you through any and all of that, and I would love to see these guarantees out in the wild and hear about how they’re performing, how they’re helping you sell, make sales, and increase conversions.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
So hopefully everyone watching this on the replay, I hope you have got your worksheet, for this training at the right because we’re going to be referring to this, as I go.
I’m very excited to jump into guarantees with you because I know that for a lot of you in this group, the work that you’re doing not only in this program but also currently in the intensive means that you are in the process of finding your offers or even creating entirely new ones, raising your rates and also doing things like looking at, high value retainers for possibly the first time.
And I think that whenever you do something new, whether that is selling something at that higher price point or selling a new offer or working with a new kind of client.
When you do something for the first time, there’s always a leap of faith you have to take, to do the thing. And of course it’s my job to coach you over that. Because a huge part of mindset I think is that once you are doing the thing then you have the proof that you can do it, which, of course, can help, reduce, the sting of those mindset gremlins, as you move through your business.
So with that in mind, as you’ll know from the worksheet and from Sarah’s post, this workshop is all about crafting highly effective guarantees for your offers.
And this is really key because obviously an awesome guarantee will not only remove or reduce risk for your prospect to the point at which they feel really confident, opting into your offer and making that purchase, but they will also remove or reduce risk for you if you’re feeling a little bit wobbly about putting an offer out there or putting a price point out there for the first time. Because that means you’re not just asking your prospect to sort of trust that you’ll do the thing. You have actually an agreement in place that means that if you don’t do a certain thing, then they will get a certain thing in return. So the means of the exchange is really clear. And this is something that can really just help in a practical sense, you do one of those scary things for the first time.
Now, of course, the days of the super vague, if you do everything inside and don’t get the results you’re after, let me know and I’ll give you a full refund. The days of those guarantees working I think are over.
Although I do feel like there was a weird time in the late 20s where they did work for some offers.
But what I’m seeing not only in my own business but in my clients’ businesses and the work I do for them, what I’m seeing at the moment in terms of guarantees that work are those that are really hyper specific guarantees and also guarantees that are really easy to action.
So I wanted to show you a few examples of what those look like. These are real examples taken from various parts of my business.
And then I will also pull up the worksheet, just to, step through, what you’re looking at so you can hopefully understand what the questions and the prompts in the worksheets are asking for.
So hang on. Let me share my screen.
So I’m on a new on a new laptop for the first time, and it means I have a fancy new Zoom with buttons in different places than I’m used to. Here we go.
Okay.
There we are. Alright. Share screen. Okay. So you should be able to see, hopefully, a guarantee written here on a green blue slide.
Let me just make that bigger so we’re hanging out it properly. Alright.
So this was a guarantee that I wrote for one of my clients and this was actually quite a few years ago now.
But this was for a program for people with hypothyroidism.
So a condition that really causes like a whole raft of physical symptoms, none of which are very appealing. So things like incredible lethargy, weight gain, infertility, really bad mood swings, that kind of vein of things.
And when I was doing the voice of customer research for this project, which was a launch, I kept finding that reliably when I was asking, you know, what was the first shift in order to start joining the program? People would say that by day four or five, they actually felt like they had an insane amount of energy, like something they hadn’t experienced, since their thyroid had started playing up.
This was repeated by everyone I spoke to in my interviews and also in the, survey that I sent out to those I couldn’t interview. It was a really common response.
And speaking with Erin, who is the lady behind this program, she backed that up. She was like, oh, yeah. People always really see that boost in energy, you know, you know, in the first within the first three or four three or four or five days. So, well, I made this into her guarantee. And as you can see here, it reads, if by day five you don’t lose a significant boost in energy, I’m talking the most alive you’ve ever felt since your thyroid decided to pack up and leave the building, just email me to request a refund. That’s how convinced I am that this program will change everything for you, all with teeny tiny baby steps that take just fifteen minutes a day.
I’ll mention here too before I pivot from here into the worksheet so you can have a look at the mechanics, of what is working here with this guarantee.
The teeny tiny baby steps were really important for this program because obviously if you’re someone who is experiencing all those symptoms that I mentioned earlier, the idea of being able to find a half hour or an hour a day or something to implement the changes you’re learning about in the course is obviously going to be overwhelming. So, this is also a really important thing to put here and this links back into the minimum viable commitment.
So I will switch screens now but it will be clunky because that is how I roll.
Here we go. So if you look to your worksheet, you will see that the first prompt here is asking you to identify what the quickest valuable win is for the offer that you’re working with.
Now hopefully quickest valuable win is a familiar term for you. It’s one of RISE genius concepts, it’s in copy school. I believe Sarah sent through, in this week’s email, the links or the sort of bookmarks to, where you can revisit it if you need to. But basically, it’s based on the idea that, as humans, we are far more motivated by outcomes, results, or rewards that are in the near term.
So even though, you know, the big picture promise of your offer might be something much grander and in the case that we just looked at, it was much grander than having more energy, that fact that that was actually still quite a huge win for people, people who have been feeling flat as a pancake for so long, that promise is really appealing because it’s in such the near future. They can imagine that in five days from now, oh wow what if I do actually have that energy? That’s a really compelling promise to offer them. So when you’re thinking through this for your own offers, obviously, I’ve got here some just check points for you to make sure that you have actually identified the quickest valuable win. So making sure that it is actually quick. Right? And really the sooner the better.
Making sure that it’s also valuable. So being able to answer the question of why does that actually matter? Because if you answered that then you may have identified a quick win but it may not be powerful or meaningful enough to actually make that guarantee pack a punch.
The other thing that needs to be, here I think, and this is only in my experience, but I mean it definitely works, is that it needs to be measurable or demonstratable.
Because if it’s neither of those things, there is a bit of room for interpretation into whether your customer has actually got their end of the bargain. So the question here, how will you, you and or your client customer know they’ve actually hit this win?
And for the example that I just shared, the thyroid program, that was actually part of the fifteen minutes a day work that people went through. There was a three question check-in every day and one of those questions was how’s your energy today? It was a really simple Likert scale. I think it was even framed in frowny face to really smiley face. So a way for people to capture that information and also importantly a way for the course creator to capture that information.
In that case it was really simple, really quick, really effective and I’m sure for most people they had forgotten that that was the guarantee when they were answering those questions.
But that’s just one example to hopefully help your brain tick over. I’ve got a couple more examples too but I’ll just talk through these last, this last point on this page before I dive back in, to some guarantees.
So for DIY offers, so that’s things like courses or digital products only, I think it’s also really important that the guarantee requires a minimum viable commitment from your prospects.
So what do they actually have to do to realize this quickest valuable win?
And, again, this is a glorious concept from the brain of rye. But if you need a refresher, basically, it is all about the fact that, you know, your most most of your prospects are not going to be, you know, the gold standard of person when it comes to a course or digital product in that, you know, some sure will do, like, absolutely everything that’s available to them, take up every opportunity, devote the right number of hours, etcetera, etcetera. But for the average prospect, the idea of having to do that to get a result is quite overwhelming and is often reason for them not to purchase. So you need to think about how is it actually, you know, a reasonable effort on their part.
So for example, I mean, in this case, with the thyroid program guarantee, it referenced that fifteen minutes a day. So that is a way to really reinforce that hey, this is actually quite doable. Like on the sales page and in the emails, I talked about, you know, being able to do that, you know, first thing in the morning or even over your lunch break. So talk on the bus on the way to work. So Finding ways where you could make that really actionable and feel very approachable.
So as another example, like if you are trying to build this out for some sort of, course or workshop, obviously, it is much more appealing for your prospect to hear that you will have this quickest valuable win by the time you’re seventeen minutes into the first module, rather than by the time you’ve watched all the modules and done all the worksheets, because that can feel like a reason not to buy. So hopefully that makes sense. If you don’t have any questions on any of this, by the way, because I’m talking to myself here, please, please, please ping me in Slack. I’m so happy to unpack this further, to help it make sense, to help make it really actionable. So do not hesitate.
If we have a look at another guarantee, just to again get some more ideas flowing for what might be in front of you. This is a guarantee that I had for one of my own offers, which was a launch service.
So, a service that I actually marketed in what I think of now as quite an aggressive way. I the sales page was actually a teardown, although I hate that term, but that’s what it was, of, someone’s launch. And it was a personality here in Australia who’s quite a big deal. She just stepped into the online course market. I think it was six months prior.
And her launch strategy, her sales page, her emails, had many opportunities for optimization. So the sales page for this offer was actually that and then I segued into the offer, which explains why the first sentence of the guarantee here is if I can’t identify at least three key opportunities, like the ones above, for optimization during your next launch, I’ll shimmy your money straight back to you along with an apology for the hassle. No awkward email exchange required.
So this is an example of what a guarantee can look like for a one to one service.
And again, you know, this win is quite quick and valuable because the service itself is quite quick. It was a sixty minute launch day brief call, so as soon as they booked in they filled out their intake form, I then went through all their data, all their stats, all their thoughts about the launch, and then we had a sixty minute call where we could discuss that and I could feedback my findings.
So knowing that they would have at least three key opportunities for optimization by the end of that call was appealing because my prospect for this offer was someone who had launched, you know, more than likely, you know, two or three times. Something wasn’t clicking or something wasn’t working as well as they wanted it to, but they couldn’t pinpoint what that thing was. So this idea of being able to have real clarity around what they should focus on next time to yield some better results and yield some better conversions was highly appealing.
The other thing to point out here is that, obviously, this is really easily measurable, and I can do the measuring here. Like, if I don’t have at least three opportunities for optimization, like, I will know that, which is why I can also offer in this guarantee that, you know, there’s no awkward email exchange required because I’ll be able to see that. So it’ll be just on me to say, hey, I’m so sorry.
I could not meet my minimum standard for success with this offer for you. I’ve just refunded your money.
Which is probably a good segue into talking about some of what is on the second page of your worksheet for this workshop.
So this page here is all about what you’ll provide if your offer doesn’t deliver.
And as a quick note here, you don’t always need to offer a refund. There are absolutely other things you can offer, in the place of just returning someone’s money. And I think when it comes to this, it’s really helpful to think about the role that the offer you’re working with is playing in your business ecosystem.
So for example, let’s say it’s the first time you are trialing out your retainer offer.
It may be that it is worth it for you to get insight and experience into how this works in real terms to offer that if you can’t meet a certain benchmark of optimization after say three or six months, you know, that you will provide two months free.
Or if you are, working this through with, say, a bigger project, but, you know, it’s still a clearly defined project and one that doesn’t roll on, it might be that they don’t have to pay their final fifty percent if you can’t reach whatever the thing is that you’ve offered as a quickest valuable win for them.
It could also be that you may offer additional access to you. So maybe you offer an additional coaching session with someone.
You know, so extra hands on help can obviously, be really appealing depending on the offer.
Having said that, if you are looking at what to offer for a guarantee for something that is designed to help you really scale your business, so a one to many offer like a a course or a digital product that doesn’t really require any real time input from you for delivery, it probably doesn’t make sense to offer something like an additional one to one session with you, because that sort of defeats the purpose of that offer, if that makes sense.
Again, if any of this is confusing, please please please reach out in Slack, and I’m so happy to talk through it in a different way, that will hopefully resonate. So, sorry that was a lot of talking. So when you are thinking through what this is, two things here to check it. So make sure it’s compelling.
You know, why why is this actually a really compelling, enticing guarantee or exchange for your prospect? Is it compelling enough?
You know, you need to be able to look at this and say clearly, yes. It is. It really makes the option to purchase this for my ideal prospect a no brainer. That’s really what you’re aiming for here. The other thing that I think is incredibly important to think about and I think can really impact the effect your guarantee has on selling your offer is is it frictionless? So how can you make this easy for your client or customer to ask for if your offer fails to deliver?
I think there are far too many guarantees out there that really put the onus on the customer themselves to activate it. And of course I understand why that is, but I think what that can actually do is devalue the guarantee even if otherwise the exchange is quite appealing.
So as an example, I run a copywriting course called Braincamp. I think I’ve run it since twenty eighteen now. So a long time. But ever since I started, I’ve actually emailed people, like, two days before the guarantee period ends to check-in with them to see how they’re doing and let them know, you know, hey. Here’s your chance to reach out if you feel like, you’re not getting what you came for.
So just an example. But I also think that so much of business is built on reputation.
Particularly when you’re gaining traction and making a name for yourself in the space. So anything you can do to really stand by your guarantee and stand by the fact that you want to do some really awesome work with really awesome people and you wanna make sure that it’s coming off, I think that pays dividends one hundred percent.
Alright. Let me flick back to here, so we can have a look at one more guarantee.
This one was one I wrote for a Client who works, she’s like a virtual COO she calls herself. So she works to help people set up automations and systems in their business, to help them save time and increase productivity.
Her client is any creative professional, so copywriter, designer, podcast editor, anyone like that. But basically people who have repeatable processes in their business that they’re feeling bogged down by and really want be able to automate or outsource.
This was for a program that she was beta testing for the first time. So, she for added context, just in case it’s relevant, she was just coming back for maternity leave and she was looking for ways to sort of leverage her now more limited time in her business.
So was turning or had turned her one to one offering into an online course so that she could still serve people, ideally to get the same outcomes, but do it with a much lower time and energy investment from herself for the actual delivery of that of that service.
So the guarantee that we landed on was this. If you haven’t been able to set up a high end for them, low touch for you, onboarding automation for at least one of your offers fourteen days from now, I want to know. Email me directly, and there’s a script you can copy paste below to make it as easy as possible because I know reaching out to someone to let them know their program hasn’t delivered can feel incredibly awkward. And I’ll reply with the link to my calendar so we can book a call and work it through together. In other words, there’s no way you’re moving to the next month feeling as bogged down in your business as you are right now.
So to break this down with the concepts we’ve just looked at from that worksheet, quick is valuable when, you know, fourteen days after starting the program that they can have the onboarding automation for their for one offer. And most of them would choose probably their primary offer, like uploaded, done, running basically on autopilot, to open up some more time and space for them within their business to do the things that are more important than doing that task live.
It is very easy for a customer to activate this guarantee. And I actually do have the script for that email on the next slide, which I’ll show you just in case you wanna have a look at what that looks like.
So, you know, the thought of them being like, oh, this is actually a good guarantee, but, god, would I am I the kind of person who would actually go out of my way to, you know, to let Lauren know? Like, I don’t know. You know, that that worry is taken away from them.
The exchange here, so book a call and work it through together. So the reason that, my client and I landed on this as, her offer for or her part of the guarantee is because this was a beta test of this offer. So she really wanted, one, proof that it worked so that she could launch it and sell it at scale in the future, And also to social proof for marketing. So, for her, it was more valuable to be able to spend a bit of extra time with anyone who didn’t get to this quickest valuable win for whatever reason so she could find out why, what was missing from the program, she could optimize from there and also so that she could ideally get some really good social proof to help her with future launches and sales and eventual evergreening.
So just another very different example and hopefully something that can give you something else to pull from as you’re looking at your office suite or your client’s office suites and trying to really work out what fits.
Oh, and I’ll just show you here too. Sorry, this is copy pasted from a launch email that I wrote for her. But in the PS I included that guaranteed script and this is what it looks like just in case is an idea you want to pinch for yourself.
PS, here’s that non awkward guaranteed script just in case you need it. Hey, Lauren. I haven’t been able to set up that onboarding automation like you promised. Can you please send me that link to your calendar so we can get it sorted?
So hopefully, as you can see, that’s quite a compelling thing to include in a in a sales email, because it really closes the loop. It really reinforces that, she means this guarantee and she wants you to activate it if you do not get the thing that she has promised.
So I think all of these things make this guarantee real, tangible, precise, specific, all those things that I spoke about at the top of this workshop, that are really working, to cement and increase conversions. I think particularly in this era where, you know, world economies and all those sorts of things are not ideal. Right? People it’s not that people are afraid to spend money. People are afraid to spend money poorly. So to spend money on things that don’t work or don’t get them the things that they want. So if you can remove that risk for them, the decision to purchase becomes a lot easier.
And as I mentioned, the ability for you to stand behind and confidently sell your offer also increases, because you know you have this ironclad agreement in there. That, hey, like, I promise if I do not do x by y, I’m gonna do this. Like, I’m gonna make it good.
I want this to be a super solid investment for you and if it’s not, I haven’t done my job. So I’ve been able to have that conversation whether it’s on a sales call or whether it is a conversation that you have, on a sales page or in a launch sequence, it is really powerful. And I think can really help you and your offer stand out, and, of course, really help you sell with ease.
Now I think the only other thing that is on this worksheet is just a fill in the blanks, type thing. Obviously, this may oh, sorry. That looks funny. This may not, be the final form of your guarantee. But If you pull it all together into this, you’ll at least get a chance to see what it looks like together. And just check again, is it compelling? Is it frictionless?
Is the win here really meaningful? Does this look like something that my ideal prospect is going to respond to positively?
And does this feel like something that makes me more able to sell my big scary big hairy offers, in a new space or in a new way?
I was planning on using the rest of this time today to work through this with you, give you some time to go through the worksheet, help you troubleshoot, the guarantees, and also talk to you about the mindset side of things. So, try and dig into how or if this does change your confidence in terms of going ahead and selling that new offer or selling at that new price point, and also dig into some other things that may be lurking in there so that we can, workshop those, or build some exercises out around those for future workshops.
Because if you’re watching this it’s a replay, obviously.
I don’t think even Shane has the AI to make that sort of exchange possible, right here on this video.
But please ping me in Slack. I would love to help you through any and all of that, and I would love to see these guarantees out in the wild and hear about how they’re performing, how they’re helping you sell, make sales, and increase conversions.