Tag: mindset

Struggling with time management and setting boundaries

Transcript

One thing I discovered that that I’m really bad at as I was going through week three is, I’m, like, last, like, a couple years. I’m just, like, really good at, like, winging things.

Okay.

So, like, I think when I look at the time tracking and, like, all the data in the spreadsheets, it’s like, it’s just forcing me to, like, get into uncomfortable. Like, okay. I need to I really need to, like, keep track of my time because I I know I’m losing money.

So, yeah, I use this consequences.

So, like, I guess for, like, in your experience, like, how how does, like is it just best to, like, embrace it and just, like I don’t know. I’m trying to figure out how to, like, work my way into it, where, like, you know, have a more standardized, good way of time tracking myself.

Okay. So I’m hearing you prefer to wing it. It’s just the natural state for you, and it’s worked so far. So there’s a level of, like, I can just keep winging it.

But time tracking is the biggest challenge. Is that right? Or is it just all the systems including time tracking?

Yeah. I think all the systems I’m like, I’m I’m getting better, like, at SOPs and and creating those processes, but, like, I’m very forgiving of myself if I’m like, oh, I’ll spend an extra time on this.

Or, like, being like a I think maybe I’m a slight perfectionist in the sense of, like, writing landing pages. Like, I’m gonna work a little longer on it because I wanna make sure it’s when it’s like, okay. They’re not paying me to work extra time on it.

So those kind of things.

Yeah. I mean, there are lots of things you like, little things that, you can do that people do do and have done surefire way to do this. Right? It is like a matter of practice, like all habit building.

This is a habit.

Refusing to let yourself, waste time.

Do you find that you also allow yourself to spend money as you feel like it?

No. I I’m gonna say I’m pretty disciplined. Yeah.

Okay. Good. So what do you think what are your thoughts on, like why do you feel why do you think you feel disciplined around money?

Because I’ve, like, I’ve always tracked it. And I I guess I’ve I’ve always established that habit. And I think it’s like like, you know, like, for instance, like, my environment, I’m in, like, a very nice environment right now. And so, like, I just started doing this last six months.

So I think, like, learning about myself is, like, putting yourself in the right environment to work. Mhmm. And, like, I’m just like, as an example. But, like, setting up these triggers or in a way where it’s like, okay.

I know I’m gonna do that. And then, like, if something happens where I need to what like, get sick or whatever, then it’s like, I have to figure out, like, how to do that.

Right. Exactly. So I’m just wondering about the thing that you do have discipline around. Can you apply any of the systems and processes that you have there?

So you already feel comfortable there, let’s say. So, for example, if you’re like, I track every month at the end of the month, month, I go through my expenses for the month in a spreadsheet, and I categorize them. I’m thinking of what my husband does. He always wants me to be excited about it.

I’m like, cool. But, like, it’s really like, it’s a safe, good space for him. Do you do anything like that with the things that you’re disciplined with? Do you have a spreadsheet for money, or do you use QuickBooks, or do you, like, meet with your accountant regularly?

What are the mechanisms you have in place for money? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I do I do actually do both. I do have a spreadsheet, and I have QuickBooks. Yeah. So it’s like I can see both. I like spreadsheets just because, it’s more I can just do it myself, and it’s more detailed, I feel like, rather than, like, being in air in QuickBooks maybe.

Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. I think I think also, like, I need to be harder on the clients I work with instead of being, like I think sometimes, like, they’re I’m so used to, like, not them leading, but they are kind of leading where they’re like, hey, Ben.

Maybe they’re asking for more or, like, the call goes over five minutes, or even ten minutes because maybe it could be, like, I’m trying to close or could be whatever the case. And so I’m, like, I’m very, like, laid back in the sense of, like, you know, it’s not a big deal.

Yeah. I get you. Okay. So totally. Couple things there. One, when it comes to your own time tracking, if it is that, just try to use duplicates of existing mechanisms that you already like and reliably use.

So if you use spreadsheets for time tracking or for money tracking, can you do something like that with time tracking? If you are accountable to somebody with money, can you be accountable to somebody with time? If you always enter something in your spreadsheet at the end of the week, can you do, something where at the end of the day, you enter what you did with your time?

And that’s what I used to get people to do at the agency is, like, by in fifteen minute increments, they had to say what they had done with their time of day.

So just keep that in mind. When it comes to clients owning the time, one, if a call goes over and it’s a call where you’re closing, time well spent. So I say let those calls go over.

But a really good way to make sure that you are controlling things with your client is how did you start the call. So really good technique for starting a call, especially, like, that fifteen minute call that can turn into a forty five minute call if you don’t, like like, zoom in on it, is to say, to kind of behave like this meeting got put in your calendar. So a thing you can say as, like, part of that script right out of the gate. Start the call.

Hey. How’s it going? I’ve got this in my calendar for the next ten minutes.

Is that what you’ve got too? Great. Ten minutes I have that we’re gonna talk about this. Is that what you expect to talk about too?

Cool. I’ve got a hard stop at the end of it. Are you okay if we just dive right in? And just, like, dominate right out of the gate, but established.

It’s ten minutes. It’s I’ve got this in my calendar for ten minutes rather than I’ve got ten minutes, which sounds like you don’t have time for them. But, like, this way, it sounds like, no. No.

It’s my calendar. I’m in business. So does that are you doing anything like that yet then?

No. No. I I actually should start doing that. I try to, like, just open with, like, more rapport of, like, find, like, some sort of relatability, like and, like, we you know, I’m I’m a nice guy.

And, like, how how is where do you live? And, like, you know Yeah. And then, like, it’s usually I mean, it’s only a couple of minutes, then I’ll just jump into it. Like, oh, you know, the reason we’re on this call is blah blah blah.

Yeah.

I would just let you know you don’t come off as a not nice guy. So I don’t I wouldn’t go into the call, worry. Like, there’s the show. Right? And you are just showing. I I would say that. Unless you hear otherwise from clients, I don’t think that’s necessarily a thing you have to establish with any great amount of time.

Okay. Okay. So just don’t worry about the small talk so much.

Little small talk, if you know, like if you’re reading that they need it, then that can be good. I know it’s hard to, like, read, but there are some people who depend on it. Obviously, like, old cliche, Germans don’t want any small talk. They’ll get annoyed.

So if their last name is German, just, like, no small talk. But then, like, Southerners are supposed to love that kind of, like, rapport building stuff. I don’t know. Everybody’s different.

So that’s all just, like, cliched stuff. Point is, we know that people behave differently. What I would say is if you’re talking to somebody in business and you’re leading the call, they typically respect that. That you’re saying, my calendar controls my life.

I have this in here for ten minutes. It’s in my calendar for ten. I have that we’re going to talk about this. Does that match what you’re looking for?

Cool. And that’s really it. Right? Then move in. If there’s a reason to get into small talk, trust that, but don’t default to that.

Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. No. That that makes yeah. Like, read the room. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Just know, like yeah. Sometimes you just need feedback. Like, I think you’ll be fine just being you leading the call. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No. That makes sense. And I and I’m going back to, like, the time tracking thing. I also think, like, when things are always in the plus in terms of, like, I’m getting calls, I’m doing work, I tend to, like, more relaxed too rather than, like, being more strict with my time.

Yeah.

So you have, like, what does your day look like? Do you always work nine to five? How do you do that?

No. It’s it’s very it’s very very, like because having kids at home and all that and all and I’ll and I’ll take them to school and drop them off. But, but, like, I get up, like, five fifteen.

I’ll start I’ll, like, I usually try to start writing, if it’s an article.

Yeah. And then I’ll, like, sometimes, like, usually try to, like, check my inbox, follow-up with leads on LinkedIn, and then yeah. Yeah. It’s usually like that.

Okay. Okay. I’m just wondering.

And we’ll talk more about this as we go. Right? How to start putting boundaries around your time and, like, the payoff for that. So we’ll get into that. But how are you feeling right now?

No. I’m feeling great. I’m feeling great. I I I like the uncomfortableness of, like, doing something new because I know I need that rather than, like, I’ve already implemented that. It’s like, I’d rather, like, I need to do that. I need to implement it. I need to it’s all there it’s all good things.

I’m just trying to Okay.

It’s like that atomic habits.

You just have to, like Exactly.

Yourself in the right environment, set up great triggers Mhmm. Do all those things.

Yeah. And if you’re at a place where, like, as you were talking, you’re like, I tried to. I tried to. So it sounds like you’re not, like, super specific about how your day has to run, which to me is, like, you’ve identified that there are opportunities in how you use your time.

Cool. You don’t have any existing, like, rigid processes to break or undo. So it feels like, okay. Cool.

This is the beginning of the path forward where you set up your day to always function a certain way where you do have those, the systems around, like, every time I start a ten minute call, this is how it always runs, that sort of stuff. So I think that’s that’s, like, good. It’s it’s appropriate for where you are, and it is, I think, the next step, though, is to start building in those habits so that if you get sick, let’s as you just said, like, you get sick, you can hand the work off to somebody else or trust that your day is set up such that once you’re feeling better, you’re good to get back into it. Yeah. So more to come. More to come.

Okay. Okay. Thank you. Cool.

Cool.

Worksheet

Resting Rich Face

Transcript

Hello. Hello, all. These smiling faces. Hello.

Thanks for your patience.

Free my cold.

But I’m stoked to share this today.

Yeah. Today’s training is called resting rich face, which I love, by the way.

Yeah. So I wanted to talk about this because it’s, it’s such an important thing how you show up on camera, which I know everybody, like, knows.

But in practice, it’s so different. So, I’ve been on calls with people where I’ve just wanted to coach them the whole way through. And I’m sure people have been on calls with me where they’re just like, Joe, what? But I actually don’t think that’s true. I think I actually am pretty okay at resting rich face and not coming off like, like, I’m cold.

So I wanted to I wanna share this note. This is a bit of a soft skill, right, which it has a worksheet for it because there are some parts that I think can be controlled where you can, like, go check check. I’ve done that check.

But overall, the objective now everybody got the worksheet, I assume. So I will share my screen right away. But, if you’ve got it, bring it up. If you’ve got it printed, get your pen out.

Jessica, I know you’re doing your walking, so put the paper against the treadmill screen and write on it.

And I do actually wanna do a little bit if it makes sense to, I wanna do a little bit of, like, skill drill stuff where we actually try on our resting rich face, and get some critiques on it, or some thumbs up. I’m like, well done. You’re super rich, and you don’t need anything from me. So that’s the idea.

Right? The idea is although nobody likes to talk about it, nobody likes to admit that this is the reality. The reality is people wanna do business with people that seem out of their league. They just do.

So anybody who’s trying to, hire you wants to believe you’re, like, a notch above what they can afford. Not out of range entirely, but but it’s like I don’t know if you’ve seen the Instagrams.

I’m on Instagram a lot now because Nicole is forcing me to, like, care about this stuff now.

There’s this, like a lot of people who are on there talking about style and how you look. And one has a really good piece of advice, which is always dress just a notch better than you’re expected to dress for the thing. Just a little just one little notch better. And I think, like, this is the kind of stuff that, that, like, nobody likes to talk about that we can but actually will one hundred percent help you get more clients to go, like, I really wanna hire him or, like, how do I like that person so much? And that’s what we wanna get. Right? That and it’s completely achievable.

One is resting rich face is you showing up on camera, always on camera, always very aware of what your background looks like, what your lighting is, where your camera is, and starting with a certain emotion.

So what I have found to be very useful and I was gonna go through and find some old calls to share with you, but I’ve got I’m I’m teaching this because I think it’s been really critical for me being able to charge a lot more than people seem to believe is, like, a comfortable amount to charge. Like, to be able to save fifty thousand dollars for a thing or more than that is, like, people have a hard time believing that it can be that easy. And I do think it comes down to, well, how are you presenting yourself on camera?

So we need to not just present ourselves a certain way, but also control the conversation in a certain way. And by that, I mean, in ten x f c, I have one thing that a few of you I know have been through ten x f c. And there’s, like, the Jennifer Lawrence, oh, hells no moment when you go into a call, and the idea going into a call is, oh, hells no. You can’t. This isn’t gonna work. So you go in auditioning them.

That alone, if you just walked forward in life from this point on and said, I auditioned them, Copy School Pro paid for itself. It that’s that alone, I I’m not it sounds dramatic.

You are auditioning them. When you think of it that way, when you go into it with that attitude, it’s not it’s bitchy attitude. It’s Richie attitude. You’re just going into it like, I don’t need this work.

I wanna like you, and then I wanna help you because I like you, and we can partner on this stuff together. But you’re not going into it acting like, I hope this works out for both of us. So you do think that. And, of course, you want the work, hopefully.

Let me just wanna charge more for it and make sure that they’re, like, so ready to work with you. They’re so excited to give you the money for this work, which can absolutely happen if you control the way you present yourself along with all of the other stuff we’re talking about. Right? So I wanna share my screen, and I apologize for the sneezing and coughing that are bound to happen any moment now.

I’m, like, holding them back right now and hoping to just push through.

Okay. Let me share my screen, and we’re gonna talk about how this works. Alright.

This is the part that I wanna share with you most. You already know I think everybody already knows. If you’re not, like, looking at the camera, you’re not doing right in the call. If your background is crap, you’re not doing right in the call.

If your lighting is crap, come on. We’re all better than that. We know better than that. Right?

Then come the other things, like, should you be sitting or standing? Now I like to teach that you should be standing. It’s more engaged. You’re really up and you’re in it. You can lean in.

However, there’s a certain sort of power move to sitting. So I want you to make an intentional choice. So not intentionally sit. I’m being intentional in my sitting, but sit intentionally or stand intentionally.

And we can talk a bit about that. You’ll know right now. You should know right out of the gate which one feels better for you, and it’s not the one that’s more comfortable, by the way. Sitting is gonna be more comfortable. It just that’s what our chairs do.

But it’s a question of what and we’re talking about this in the intensive as well. What who are you as the brand sitting in front of them?

This thought leader where we’re talking about the leader side of it. You as a thought leader in x, does that thought leader sit or stand?

You already know this. You already know what you should be doing. You know who you see best, who you respond best to when they’re sitting versus when they’re standing, and it’s not always the same for everybody. So which one is it for you? Stand, if you don’t know if it should be sit or stand, I’d say stand is a really good starting point. Default to the thing where you’re up and engaged because sitting invites the leaning back, which shouldn’t happen out of the gate.

And that brings us to this part. And we’ll talk more about these other parts here at the top. But this is, I think, an important distinction that I’ve learned for myself. And when I have analyzed tonight, I have analyzed so many sales calls over the years watching the best salespeople.

And salespeople where I was like, really? This is what you’re gonna do for a living?

I’ve watched them both. And the ones that do the best work or that are the most where by the end of it, you’re like, holy shit. I wanna work for that person. Like, I I don’t even wanna be in business. Like, I watched one salesperson one time do this, what we’re gonna talk about so masterfully.

I was like, I and she was selling enterprise into high, like, high big engineering teams, and she was so good that I was, like, so excited for her and everybody who was signing up for her stuff. So I was like, you just get to be around this incredible salesperson. And that’s exactly what we are here. Right?

We’re we’re salespeople in these calls. So what she did is she would open the call as we all should being very likable. You’re smiling out of the gate. You’re looking at the camera.

Go into hide self mode if you must, if you find yourself looking at yourself a lot, like, to make sure you’re okay. Like, first check check that you’re okay before you let them in the room, and then go hide self view so that you can really look at the camera and get a sense. Give them the sense that you’re looking right at them, that they have your complete attention. Have a notepad handy as always.

Right? We’re not gonna get into that, but you don’t wanna be typing the whole way. Make sure you’re recording, etcetera, etcetera. But the point is you wanna be likable out of the gate.

That’s when you smile. If you’re wondering and this is gonna sound really stupid like, Joe, why are you teaching us this? Trust me. Trust me on this today. While the cold meds are making me a little wonky, I’m not gonna lie. I’m feeling a little bit off.

But it’s often a good way, I think.

Slightly slightly like drinking.

So smile out of the gate. Not not a big dumb grin, for lack of a better word, but smiling.

Right? So we’re smiling. We’re happy. We’re smiling with our eyes. We’re smiling with our mouths.

We’re likable. We’re friendly. We’re chatting in a friendly quick way. But we are also, managing and owning this conversation.

You’re smiling like the richest person in the room smiles. Not that you are, but that’s what’s going on in your head, and it makes you likable. You’re nothing’s wrong in your life. Everything’s good in your life.

You’re smiling. Things are good. You’re leaning in. You’re flattering. I love your business. I love what you do at Canva.

I love what you do at TELUS. Oh my gosh. I love what you do at Johnson and Johnson.

I love x y z. Just leaning in and flattering. And this is leaning directly in. Like, my elbows are on the desk.

I’m leaning in, and I’m looking at you and smiling, and it’s all good. Not crazy eyes. Watch your crazy eyes. Don’t be crazy eyes, but smiling.

We’re having a good time. This is when you’re starting the call. This doesn’t last for that long. You’re just setting a tone.

This is like a minute on your triage call where we’re, like, a fifteen minute call, max a minute of this part. And then the middle column here, the disqualification, this is when we start to back away. Your body backs away a little bit. And by the time you are ready to actually hear real stuff from them, you are leaning back.

And as we all know, that requires them that they lean in. They’re looking to get the same level of engagement that they got from you out of the gate. This sounds like dumb playing because it freaking is. We’re copywriters.

We know that a lot of persuasion for people comes down to things that feel like a game, and you can pretend it’s not a game. You can pretend that that’s not how people do it, or you can do it, but, like, in a chill, masterful way. So not like leaning in, flattering. Did I say a flattering thing?

Now I lean back. How I probe? Then I show confusion.

But rather just, like, use your body with your questions to help reflect the attitude of a person who is genuinely curious, which is what everybody wants out of their copywriter, someone who is genuinely curious, who wants to work together but isn’t going to compromise, and who asks hard questions. So the disqualification part is where most people talk about qualifying them. Do you qualify? We wanna go into it disqualifying them, and that starts with an audition.

Now this is triage. This isn’t a sixty minute call. This is the call where you’re just trying to set a tone. Should we work together or not?

And you’re going in thinking we’re not gonna work together, but I like you. We’re gonna figure this out. We’re gonna, like I wanna spend fifteen minutes with you. If it’s nothing else, I at least get to know another person, and that’s cool.

That’s your attitude. You don’t say those words. It’s just your attitude. So then we disqualify them.

That is when we are auditioning them. Now what do I mean by auditioning?

All sorts of things. You will know it when you see it. You will know it when you do it. It is the part where you are basically asking them to share with you why they’re so awesome, and not, like, why is their business so awesome necessarily.

Like, nothing you can find online, like, with a Google search or just just by knowing their brand. But, like, get them to share with you why you, as a freelancer, would wanna spend your time working with them. And those are really simple questions. Right?

We’re we’re already asking these questions. Where do you wanna be? Where are you now? Okay.

This is a gap of you wanna have ten thousand people on your list. You have five thousand people on your list. That’s a gap of five thousand. What’s causing the gap?

This is where you’re curious. You’re asking questions. Auditioning is still we’re not leaning back yet. We’re still, like, asking questions.

Okay. That’s a gap of blah blah blah. What’s causing the gap? Okay. How have you tried solving that?

You’re taking notes. You’re curious.

Then they’re starting to answer in ways that are concerning. And we all know that when they’re answering questions in this triage call, they also have their backs up a little bit. Right? So they’re not gonna give you everything, and you know that going into it.

If you don’t know that, if you haven’t experienced it, that’s the reality. That’s what you will be seeing if you haven’t seen it yet. I’m sure we’ve all seen that. So they’ve got their backs up a bit.

They’re also a little bit of a wall, and they’re going to give you half truths for things. They’re not gonna tell you everything. You get to know that that’s not true, and you get to ask them then probing questions. And this is the part where you start to turn into, the rich consultant who doesn’t need this job.

So I’m gonna need the my lead here to get real with me. So you’re telling me you’re at five thousand leads right now. You wanna get to ten thousand. These five thousand leads came in in the last three years.

And when did you wanna get to these these other five thousand leads in the next three months?

Can you walk me through, like, your thinking there? That’s where you’re allowed to actually dig in and start leaning back a bit. Like, convince me now that you’re not on your mind that, like, you have these big growth objectives, but you actually have, like, this the good sense to do the work well.

And this is where you start to show this confused curiosity. Like, wait. Okay. There must be something I’m not understanding.

So please help me understand.

You wanna double your list that took three years. Am I hearing just I just wanna make I wanna make sure. You wanna double your list that took three years in the next three months.

What where walk me through what’s actually happening here. Like, walk me through where this is coming from. I’d really love to know. You’re curious, but you’re confused.

They’re now going like, oh, shit. I’m about to be found out for not really knowing everything under the sun. Maybe I’m taking this call because someone on my team was supposed to take the call, and they’re sick today. But I still wanted to take the call because I still wanna do this or whatever it is.

I feel ill prepared to answer these questions. Oh my gosh. Can we just, like, figure out if we can even work together and now blah blah blah blah. So we don’t wanna make them feel uncomfortable, but we need to recognize that if all you do is smile and go, oh my gosh.

That’s genius. That’s perfect. That’s amazing. I love that. We can still do that. That’s so good but a good idea.

That sounds great. And with your brand, there’s no way this won’t work. If you keep doing all that kind of stuff the whole way through, that’s I have not seen that work well. What I’ve seen work well is like below the gate, leaning in, flattering, then you switch to auditioning them, ask them the questions that you need answered, better understand how they work with freelancers, how they value the specialization that you have.

As they say things that are confusing, lean back a little at a time, still making notes.

Your confused curiosity shouldn’t be like you furrowing your brow your whole time going like, what? Like, it’s not that. It’s not far over on the other side like, that sounds dumb. But rather at that balancing point where you’re like, okay. I don’t I’m not quite getting this. It’s not a hundred percent clear to me.

Please, like, explain this part to me as if it’s my first day on the job because I really, really wanna understand what’s happening for your business and how I can help you. And when you do that, some people may not like it. I don’t know who they are. Because when I do that, people tend to lean in and share them with you.

Like, oh, okay. Cool. Let me share this with you, but we only have fifteen minutes, don’t we? Yeah.

We do. So can you give me, like, the Coles notes version of that? And then they do. And that’s that is what I have seen.

That is what I’ve seen over thirteen years of doing this stuff out of in house.

And so that’s something that I would recommend for you is this disqualification area is really the part where if you think of yourself as, like, you’re leaning in, you’re at, like, a forty five degree angle. That’s too much leaning in, by the way. Then you go up to to ninety degrees, and then you go back to a hundred and thirty five, a hundred and twenty five, probably closer. But that’s what you wanna do is slowly lean back and then come around to the thing that they want.

They liked you out of the gate. Likable is huge. They have told you real things and you’ve asked them. You’ve probed not as, like, a curious little butterfly, but as, like, a curious consultant who just wants to know, like, because can I help you or can’t I? And if I don’t understand, then I can’t help you.

Toward the point where now you’re like, got it. Okay. So I see what you’re looking for now. Thank you for explaining that to me.

Here’s what I know we only got fifteen minutes. We got, like, four minutes left in this. So here’s what I would say. This is when you start leaning in again.

You’re smiling a bit more. You’re not like not like you were out of the gate, but you’re smiling. Now you guys are on the same page. Right?

This could work really well. I think that I could help you out with this, but only if and then you go back through the things that they said. Only if that thing that you said at that point is actually true. So only if you are really going to put a hundred thousand dollars into Facebook ads to grow your list by five thousand given that you’ve spent no money.

So can we say that that’s for sure that you’re gonna put that money? That’s already set up. Perfect. So I could see it as working then.

I could see being able to help you get there if that’s true. And, frankly, I’d really love to do this with you. As I mentioned, I love Johnson and Johnson, whatever that thing is. I’m I have your pills on my desk right now.

I don’t know what the thing is. Right? But you’re you’re getting back into, like, this would be cool. I do this all the time.

Do it for clients like x y z.

It starts at ten grand. How does that sit with your budget?

Cool.

Great. And then I think we should do this. So but we won’t know until we dig deeper in. So, the next step is a longer call, and then you go into the part that takes them over toward that, the next step, which is that sixty minute call that we talk about in freelancing school, and that we can talk about more here if you want to.

But that is the long and the short of it, where you wanna go through and come up with your own auditioning questions. What are the things that you often find yourself asking? What do you need to know from leads when you’re first talking to them during this triage call? And then we can talk more about how resting rich face works, but it really does come down less to less to, like, just do Zoom background stuff.

That’s one thing. And more to the attitude that you bring and the mood that that attitude helps to create.

Remember that people like likable, and they want that likable person that they liked out of the gate to like them back. So we can use that to have more productive calls and use some body language to go back and then come back together, and they feel a connection.

That isn’t true if you’re just always sitting there stoically looking, smiling, and doing things that just don’t feel engaging. So does that all make sense?

Yeah?

Questions?

No?

Do you not say, like, anything about your process in that initial discussion?

So this is just, that would be in the part where we’re like, this would only work if, if that’s true. Cool. And if that’s true, great. Here’s how I get things done.

This is why I think it would work well for your business just based on this conversation we’ve had so far. Do you agree? How does that sound? I’m always getting the buy in from them as you’re going through.

But the point here is, yeah, you do have fifteen minutes. We’re focusing less on the script and more on intentionally doing the right things to get the right emotional reaction as you go. Mhmm. Cool?

Cool.

Oh, wait. I have a question.

Naomi?

Is the goal to find something problematic?

I feel like a lot of times I’m working with very skilled marketers, sometimes people who I’ve worked with in the past.

So, like, is what if there’s nothing like, is the goal to find something problematic in their proposal or their presentation?

And if so, what what if there’s nothing you can sort of pick apart?

No. The goal isn’t to, like, look for problems. The reality is that there usually is a problem. Or and it’s not even a problem. It’s like, help me understand what’s going on there.

And that’s, like, the curiosity that copywriters bring to the table. I’ve never I can’t remember ever having been in a triage or even a sales call where I was perfectly satisfied with what the client or lead was saying to me. It’s usually like I don’t know how that works. And you’re like, junior more junior freelancers, like, keep that to themselves, right, and go like, oh, okay. That’s really interesting. And then they’re like, I have no idea how that works, or is that even the right way to do it? Instead of saying, like, why can I ask you, like, why you’re taking that approach?

And if you do that while looking at them, you’ve already set up that you’re likable. They booked the call with you. If you can ask those questions with confused curiosity so there’s sometimes you’re gonna dial up the confusion, and sometimes you’re gonna dial up the curiosity.

And that’s really up to you. If you’re in a call and everything they say is, like, hunky dory, that’s amazing.

That’s cool. It’s just so rare, and it might require that you be more challenging.

Because if if their idea is perfect I I’m a smart marketer. I don’t I don’t have perfect ideas, and I can always benefit from a consultant coming in and saying, like, that’s cool. I like what you’re saying. What I’m confused about is this part. Can you help me understand that part? And then I’m like, oh, yeah. For sure.

Versus this all sounds perfect.

No notes, which is just so rare. Right? You’re allowed to have notes. Does that make sense, Naomi?

It makes sense. I’m just thinking through my client base, and a lot of the things feel very standard. Like, we’re doing a webinar and we need emails and LinkedIn ads, or we need a new website because we’re going for a funding round. Not that there’s no questions, just it feels like, okay. This is pretty typical.

This feels a little bit normal. So I’m trying to think of, like like, sure. I wanna know the context, and I wanna know who’s involved and what are the goals, but it doesn’t seem like it doesn’t make there there aren’t so many things that don’t make sense to me so much.

That’s fair. I mean, I would say put on your consulting hat instead of and maybe that’s just a difference in how you approach people, and that can be really valuable or depends on the kinds of projects that you’re getting.

I I know that there’s a lot of different ways people can go about doing things. I usually have some level of assumption. If someone says I want to have a million dollar launch, I wanna know a lot about that. What was your last launch? If the last launch was a hundred thousand, we got a problem. If the last launch was nine hundred thousand, we should probably shoot for higher than a million this time. Right?

So there’s you so it depends. It all depends. But what I wanna make sure I’m doing is getting in bed with people who are genuinely challenging the way things are so that I think this is maybe part of it. I’m only working with people who have really great ideas, and they’re open to better ways of doing them. Does that make sense?

Yeah. No. I like the idea. I just think that think it’ll take a little bit of thinking to figure out where those questions are, Because a lot of times with b two b, the numbers are not as like, the quality of the leads is a lot more important than the actual conversion rate.

And so sometime oh, I think a lot of times, the actual growth rates are not the top top priority, especially if it’s a little bit more top of funnel is what I found. So, a lot of those, like, numbered questions, I don’t find resonate as much. But I definitely think that there are probing questions. I’ll just have to figure out what those are.

Yeah. And, honestly, like, I have worksheets there to, like, fill in questions, like, some auditioning questions, which is really good if you’re specializing. Right? So I’m not sure, Naomi, that you’ve landed on that specialization yet. And if you have, if it’s top of funnel, then you just, like, identify what some of those questions are out of the gate. Most marketers, especially the kinds of marketers that you talk about working with, Naomi, are very interested in getting results for everything. I don’t especially in this economy and the reality of what’s going on right now.

Nobody is investing in things that they can’t measure because you’ve got to report to shareholders, to your board, to everybody.

And they need to know that even if it’s two thousand dollars spent on a freelancer, was it two thousand dollars well spent? So that’s where some of those numbers questions can come in. But it doesn’t even come down to numbers necessarily. Right? It’s really just a matter of, do you feel like you’re getting your work you’re gonna work with a client who, you can talk with is what it maybe comes down to a bit more. Yeah.

I I think it’s it’s also that there’s more of a shift from PPC to more of an ABM approach, more content marketing. And so it’s not that it’s not measurable. They’re still looking at the pipeline. They still think how many opportunities come in, but there are so many touch points that that kind of attribution tracking is not really in place for series b, series c startup. They don’t necessarily have the data infrastructure to be able to say exactly how things got from point a to point b.

So it’s Awesome.

Like, they’re definitely metrics to track, but it’s not always easy easy to figure out which ones.

Yeah. Totally.

Okay. Very cool.

What I would love to do now I know Jessica, Caroline, Stacy, you are off camera.

But I wanna role play. I wanna give out some resting rich face, action. So does anybody we need someone to be a client and someone to be the freelancer, And it’s fun. There’s this is a small group of us. A resting pot noodle face. What?

What is pot noodle? What the pot noodle?

I don’t know. It just, like that’s why I eat when I’m broke, so it kinda made sense.

Pot noodle. That’s hilarious.

Does anybody wanna give it a shot? Just the part where you’re working through the the likability of the lean in versus lean back.

Who wants to give it a shot?

I’m happy to play either role.

Okay. Anybody else wanna play?

I can be a client.

Okay. Naomi is client. Andrew is freelancer. Naomi is from what business?

Oh, I don’t know. I’ll say I’ll say monday dot com.

I would say monday dot com.

Okay. Naomi is from monday dot com, and she is looking for somebody to work on Andrew, what’s your what would you what would she be calling you for?

We’re gonna redo the home page. Okay. Because that’s everyone’s favorite.

Just the home page. No one don’t wanna do that. Naomi, you gotta make up some goals on the fly, stuff like that. Have the call, make it go. We are practicing, and it’s supposed to be fun while we’re at it.

Practicing everything that we just walked through. So opening the call.

This qualification and casual conversion.

Are we ready? Andrew, sorry.

So am I are we doing all of them, or we’re just starting with the opening?

You can just start just to, like, play around with the open through to beginning disqualification to get to a place of, showing confused curiosity.

Okay.

Paying attention to your face, looking in the camera, all of the stuff. Cool?

Okay. Yep.

Alright. Well done, you two.

And you’re actually kind of just winging it.

But Yeah.

Can I can I ask one follow-up question? Yeah. What’s your take on, like, small talk?

I so one of the things that I find useful, and I heard this from somebody at some point, is to say out of the gate, hey. I’ve got it in my calendar that we’ve got fifteen minutes to talk today. Is that right? Is that what you’ve got too? Cool. That’s not a lot of time. Do you just wanna jump in?

That is really good for that. Cool.

Alright. Cool.

Awesome. Alright. Alright. Ring ring. Zoom call starts.

Alright. Hey, Naomi. Can you hear me okay?

Yeah. How are you?

I’m good. I’m good. How are you? Yeah.

Doing well. Thank god.

Good. Glad to hear. Glad we could find some time to talk.

I have on our calendar that we just have about fifteen minutes here. Is that, is that what you have?

Yeah.

Okay. Cool. So let’s, let’s go ahead and just dive in because we have a lot to talk about and not a whole lot of time.

So, basically, the purpose of this call is for us to just chat and see if we have a suitable enough fit between us to warrant a second call where we could dive in deeper to talk about what a project might look like. Does that sound good for you?

Yeah.

Okay. Awesome. So, first question, how did you hear about me?

A friend recommended recommended you.

Must have seen LinkedIn or worked with you.

And yeah. So I figured I’d reach out.

Oh, great. Brian. Right? It was was it Brian who who?

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

Okay.

Brian’s guy. Awesome. Great. Yeah. Love Brian. Smart guy.

Awesome. So I have here that you said you were looking for someone to help overhaul your, homepage for Monday dot com. Could you tell me a little bit about what’s driving that? Like, what was going on in the business that made you say, okay. We need to start reaching out to people to find someone to overhaul our landing page.

Yeah. For sure. So we are moving towards more of an enterprise market.

Monday dot com is very different from Asana or Trello. It’s much more robust.

You can create a lot of your own apps and a lot of your own workflows, and so we really wanna emphasize that. We don’t think we’re doing a good enough job, And we want typically, we attack teams, and then we expand from there. And we want to push our enterprise efforts even further.

And we also have a different model now. We have different solutions where before we just had the general solution. Now we have solution for sales, a solution for marketing. We’re opening up a solution for HR.

And we feel like our current vision doesn’t really our our current home page doesn’t really encapsulate all of those new elements.

Okay.

So it sounds like there’s a lot going on product wise, and maybe some changes in terms of positioning, that kind of thing, new products, things like that.

I’m curious why you’ve decided to focus on the home page, for this update. Could you share a little bit of with me about why you think the home page is the focus here?

Well, we’re also working on the individual product pages, but we feel like Monday as a brand, the the homepage is really our digital storefront, and it’s people still think of us as a project management tool. And we’re hoping that the home page, when people land there, can give them a clearer image of who we are and what our value proposition is because that’s really our central component. Like, we have a huge acquisition team that’s working on different ads. We can add home teams, but the home page is sort of the central location. So we feel that if we shift the home page, then it’ll be clearer for people, to understand that new brand identity.

Okay.

I appreciate you sharing that.

Alright. Let’s let’s come back to that. I’m I’m a little bit curious. So, you know, with all of these changes that are happening, have has your team been able to document your updated positioning and messaging for these new products? So, you know, say, if we were to work together, if you’re gonna work with someone like me, what are you gonna have in place to help them understand exactly what I don’t know where I’ll do it. I don’t know where we’re coming with this.

I was trying to get into it, Andrew.

I I was just trying to, I You cut yourself short.

You’re doing great. You’re doing great.

It’s just a I know how to use this product.

I just didn’t know where we were gonna No.

No. I was just gonna watch you as long as I could. It’s like reality TV that I’ve just I’ve always wanted to see.

And I was trying to manufacture I was trying to manufacture a little bit of confused curiosity, but, no.

I appreciate it. Well done, Andrew. Well done, Naomi.

Naomi. Thank you.

Yes. Great stuff.

Notes. Well intentioned, loving notes for Andrew.

How did the lean in versus lean back go?

Come on. I thought he looked genuinely confused, curious. It was I was very sold. Yeah. Confused face was great. It was confused curiosity.

Clearly, you were paying attention.

I didn’t find it was distinct enough from the first face.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Starting face just be a little smiley.

And I think I think naturally, I am smiley. I think that I default to the I I tend to be pretty friendly on the Yeah. Those opening calls. So that part comes naturally.

And I I think the rest kinda does too. I think it’s it’s but it I definitely know what you’re talking about about, like, when you hear something and you just kinda nod along, and you’re like, okay. Sure. And that’s over time, I’ve definitely gotten better at that at being a little bit more like, alright.

Hold up. Yeah.

That again.

So yeah. And, also, I appreciate your, tip on how to start how to how to politely skip small talk. Although, I don’t I don’t mind a little bit of small talk. I don’t I’m not above talking about the weather. So you know?

No. That’s cool. Feel free, yeah, to do that. What if you tilted your camera down a bit more? Can you try that?

Let’s see.

Just so we can see you lean back more.

That way if you lean back versus lean in now lean in, and now lean back. Leaning in?

Yeah.

Back. Yeah.

I I don’t know how everybody else feels about that, but to me, it feels more if I’m paying attention to you and I see you lean back, that’s a different feel versus leaning forward.

I would play with it. Smiling in. Yeah. Smile in. Question back. Use it back.

And in.

I love it.

I I love this stuff.

Like, I’m all about like, whenever you talk about, like, the you know, it’s a game. It’s I’m like, I’m all for it. I I love that part. I love Totally.

Right?

That’s awesome.

Cool. Otherwise, you weren’t taking notes during. Do you typically not take notes during? I type. Oh, you do type. Okay.

I type, and I actually tend to type a lot.

I don’t know how bad the sound is. Like, I don’t know if I’m you know?

Hopefully, it’s not too bad. Not at all. Sweet. I have a good mic here. Here.

So Okay.

That’s great. Yeah. Okay.

That helps. But, yeah, I take a lot of notes.

Cool. I have a question.

Yeah.

So if a company like I think they have, like, two thousand employees now.

I I’m wondering what it makes like, if they say, okay. We’re gonna redo the home page. This might be, like, a directive from the CEO saying, like, we have to redo the home page, and there might be less wiggle room about the actual project that needs to take place versus, like, their idea of how the messaging is going to happen or, like, details about the project.

Like, do you still think it makes sense to, like, quest at that point, like, for that kind of company, would it still make sense to question the actual, like, should we do this project, or, like, factors around the project itself?

So when I say, like, question it, I’m not necessarily saying get them to change their idea. Is that what you’re saying, Naomi?

Well, like, I I feel like there’s, yeah, like, there’s two different kinds of questions. Like, like, to ask, like, does this make any sense? Like, it may not really be their decision. They might be limited in Yeah.

And that’s cool. You’re a consultant. It like, we’re always leaning more towards consultant the more pro we get. Right? So we’re still doing, but you’ve gone through all of the early work of accepting.

And and now you’re at a place where you’re like, hang on.

I need to better understand this. So in you saying, hang on. I need to better understand this. You are just consulting with them in that moment.

And even if the person that you’re talking to is like, oh, I have I have no idea. I can’t change that. I don’t do anything with that. That’s not me.

That’s that’s okay. You don’t have to it doesn’t need to resolve in something. What you’re doing is showing that you know what’s up and asking the questions that you need answered in order to say yes or no, where we’re defaulting to no, of course. Right?

Start with no. Get them on board after auditioning them. Get them on board with what it takes to move forward with you. Does that make sense?

It it doesn’t mean you have to say, you think it should be a home page, and I think it should be a landing page. You can say that, but we also understand that they’ve got most people have, like, direction coming from someone else. And, like, the business has decided this, and they’re looking for a copywriter to work on that thing. Andrew, were you gonna add to this?

Yeah. Well, I guess one question for Naomi. I guess, when you’re talking to these people on that initial call, does that person typically have the authority to sign, like, to sign off on the budget and, like, sign the contract, or do they have to usually kick it upstairs to someone else?

No. I’m working with a lot of smaller companies. So, usually, they do have the budget, although some times they’ll have to get approval from the CEO. Okay.

But, typically, now they do. But, like, for a larger company, like, Monday dot com, like, in my mind, it would be, like, the CEO told us we have to redo the home page, so we have to redo the home page. Like, there’s no, like, that that’s just what they were told to do. That’s the end.

That’s the the answer.

Yeah. I gotcha. Okay. I mean, part of why I asked is because I was thinking, like, something I think this I think it’s Allen Weiss, who I learned this from, but, like, he has the the idea that, like, if you’re talking to, like, if you’re talking to someone who doesn’t have the authority to say yes, then, like, anyone who you’re talking to can say no.

Right? Like, someone could if you’re talking to someone who doesn’t have the authority to say yes, they might have the authority to say no. And so to me, that signals, like, maybe a need to bring someone else into the next call who has, like who’s, like, higher up and who, like because you have the lower level people are thinking, okay. We have these tasks to do, and here’s our timeline, and here’s our budget, and we need to check this.

And then sometimes, like, if you bring in someone who, like, hey. On your next call, why don’t we have the CMO join? And then all of a sudden you realize that that stuff that was, like, written in stone isn’t actually written in stone, and the person above them is like, oh, yeah. We can expand this or change this or, you know, do this because that person’s, like, thinking more long term, thinking more about value rather than the the manager who’s trying to, like, check all the boxes and make sure that things happen on time.

So that that was sort of that was part of my thought. And then I guess the other thing is, like, digging into, like, why do you why a home page? And it’s like, oh, because the CEO then it’s like, okay. Well, why does the CEO want that?

And so I think that there’s still, like, an opportunity to keep probing there. But I don’t know if any of that was useful, but, I just thought No.

That’s fair. That’s a good point.

Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, Andrew.

And Stacy added the economic buyer. Totally.

Awesome. Okay. How is everybody feeling about the idea of presenting resting rich face?

Even if it’s just knowing that you should. Like, that’s the starting point. Just know that that’s the more ideal thing.

I think a lot of people naturally have, like in this room have, like, a naturally good personality. But I I just wanna note, like, in that beginning, as you open the call, more energy, more enthusiasm, I have found is always better. I’ve seen smart, smart people lose the lead almost immediately because they just weren’t in it. There wasn’t a sense of energy of let’s connect of being there and having something to offer, I would just keep calling it energy.

So that’s where all the smiling happens, then no smiling. Then we’re, like, really focused on not smiling. We’re listening. We’re thoughtful.

We’re strategic people, and then we come back on board with, like, chill smile. Does that all make sense? The flow? Cool.