Category: Core Training

Justifying Your Copy

Transcript

Today’s workshop is on justifying your copy and minimizing client pushback.

And I’m keen to note for both of you, how are you justifying your copy with your clients now? Is it a process of popping on a Zoom call? Are you doing Loom, walk cruise?

Comments in Google doc, something else?

So for me personally, I don’t really have a specific process yet. I’m I’m kind of in the process of doing that. So I have quoted prices over email. I know that’s terrible.

I’ve also quoted prices over, like, a call.

I’d say about, I don’t know, fifty fifty.

Like, I’ll have the same amount of success or lack of success in both.

Okay. Alright. Cool. And this is for pricing the project rather than, justifying the copy once you’ve written it and presenting that copy to the client. Is that right?

Yeah.

Yep. Okay. And what about when it does come to presenting the copy to your client or submitting the copy? Do you have a process around that as of yet?

I don’t really have a process around that, but it generally is over a call or if they’re too busy for a call, then I’ll at least send them a video justifying at least some of the sections or or the approach.

Perfect. And what about you, Stacy, if you’re sandwich free?

I, schedule I call it an approval call. So I schedule an approval call and I present to them live on the call and make changes live on the call. I I My goal is always zero changes. And a lot of the time I hit that, and sometimes I hit just a few changes. And most of the time we get them done on the call, I have a few instances when there is, with enterprise clients where there are a lot of people involved and that usually has to be done in a Google Doc situation, just because of the nature of the the client and the way that they work but I try to avoid those if I can.

Perfect. I love so much that you frame the call in a as an approval call. I think that so clever, and we’ll talk a bit about framing in this workshop, but I think that’s genius.

And for either of you, I’m wondering, is there a place where the process of like presenting your copy feels uncomfortable or sticky or you are getting a lot of pushback or are things sort of relatively smooth smooth sailing. Let me know.

Let’s do some of the first I tend to, as I said, I shoot for zero changes, and I tend to get people, that have a a very positive response.

You know, even as that says on my website, sometimes people cry when I present their copy. So, Michael, have you do happy dance.

Perfect. I love that. And it’s the best feeling, hey, when a client has happy tears, he’s like, cool. I’ve nailed this. This is great.

And it’s not what about for you? Any uncomfortable or sticky sticky parts that you’ve experienced so far?

Generally, that happens a lot when the client is not too involved or doesn’t isn’t very communicative.

That’s why I can tend to get some pushback in the sense of like, we just don’t like this or maybe like this one get approved.

Lines related stuff. Usually, if the client has been like really good to deal with throughout the project, then by the end of it, I I I’ve never really had pushback on the topic itself.

Perfect.

I love that you brought up the phrase. We just don’t like this. That is Neema most frustrating if that is ever to hear from a client because it’s like, okay. Well, we need to talk about this need to unpack it. You know, we need to about how this copy is informed and crafted specifically for your project and your goals.

So, I love that you brought that up because that definitely I have a tax client that I I presented to recently.

Yeah. They they weren’t even interested in getting on a call, so I had to loom video most of it.

And and some of the feedback I got back is that like, the owner just doesn’t like it. Like, it’s a tax firm, redesign of the whole website, and he’s just like, hey, I’m just not gonna do the section period. So, like, Give me something else that I can plug in here. So we got stuff up.

Oh god. Okay. Alright. Cool. We’re gonna talk talk about those kinds of comments in this workshop too because I know that they can be incredibly frustrating, not an enjoyable part. Of working with a client and also often a really big roadblock to getting your best copy out into the world and performing as you’ve intended. So, we’ll definitely dive into that.

I think the thing I wanna start off this workshop with is just by really clearly stating the benefits of being really proactive and your approach in terms of justifying and presenting your copy rather than being reactive. So getting on the front foot, and a sort of nipping objections and push back in the bud before they arise rather than waiting for the client to tell you that they don’t like something, they don’t like how sounds. I’m not sure about how it’s gonna perform with their people, etcetera, etcetera, and then having to get defensive about that process. So Stacy, it sounds like you’re all over this, and Adnan, it sounds like it depends a little bit on client, and you’re still sort of finding the right, process in which to sort of set this up. So let’s talk a little bit about that.

Now the main reason that it is so beneficial to be really proactive when it comes to, justifying and presenting your copy is because of something called the confirmation bias, which you’ve probably heard of before, but in case not, it’s the tendency that we all have to search for and interpret information in a way that confirms our pre existing ideas and beliefs, while simultaneously dismissing any information that doesn’t.

So in terms of how this comes into play, with, copy and, presenting it, etcetera, here are some examples. So if you have a client who comes to you with the belief that good copy is written, so for example, that copywriting is more a creative process, that it’s more about having a really correct grammar, or having words that sound nice.

That’s gonna be a client who’s likely going to have, a lot more questions, resistance, etcetera, to the copy that you present, because as we all know here, good copy is assembled. Right? It’s pieced together through that voice customer research process.

It’s really informed. It’s much more a science than an art. So just an example there power client with that first belief is probably going to present more challenges, in the justification process than a copy with that second belief.

As another example, because I saw in Slack, that I think it was Abby and maybe Kate. I can’t remember now, who noted that, one of the most common, stumbling blocks they come up against when they are presenting their copy to their client is the question of length, like this is too long.

So if you have a client who comes in to work with you with the existing belief that the most effective sales pages are short and punchy, perhaps because that’s just what they’ve seen from brands they admire, whatever the reason it might be, they’re someone who’s again probably going to be a bit more of a challenge to work with than someone who comes to you with the belief that the most effective sales pages match the ideal prospects level of awareness and are built accordingly.

As a final example, if you have, a client who comes to you hiring you as someone just to get the job done, so this copywriters can help me get my website up live or get this email sequence set up and ready to send versus someone who comes to you, because they see you with an expert.

Again, they’re gonna be someone who’s gonna be a bit more resistant to, some of the copy that you’re likely going to present them with. Because they don’t have that base level understanding that you’re an expert in what you do. So of course this last point really, folds into and works alongside of everything you guys are working on inside of CSP at the moment in terms of really building your authority, finding your red thread, etcetera, and hopefully, if you haven’t already had the experience over the next few months, you’ll start to have it more often when people come to you, so when they’re coming to you as an inbound inquiry for working with you because they’ve heard you on a podcast or they’ve seen your article promoted somewhere, or they’ve heard great things about you in some community that they’re part of this is going to be, in most cases, a much smoother process in terms of having your copy approve with no changes, because they’re going to come into this relationship with the expectation that you’re an expert, you know, your stuff, you know, maybe I don’t fully understand you know, what you’re saying about this headline here, but I trust you enough, and I trust your knowledge enough that I’m happy to go with it and at least test it.

So Hopefully, as you can see, it’s not just your justification about the copy in the moment, whether that’s, on a zoom, in a loom, or in a Google doc, that matters, but it’s also the content you publish and promote the public conversations you have. So for whatever social media forms you might be on any interactions you have there in the public sphere that people can see, sort of, how your brain works, what your expertise is about, things about your process, about where you’re coming from with your approach to the specific kind of copy that you write, and it’s also the way you handle your sales and onboarding that really helps, first of all, act like a bit of a siren call to people who, are open to or share the beliefs that you have about what makes copy effective, and also help really setting that bias in your favor so that when it comes to presenting the copy that you’ve assembled for them, you know, they’re more, likely to look the evidence that confirms the belief that, okay, this is voice of customer.

And I know voice of customer data is really key in conversion copy.

So it’s all of these things coming together.

So if we start to look at this, in this much wider lens in terms of, okay, so if we’re starting this conversation and helping to set this bias with our clients and our prospects from the very beginning, from our marketing and how we position ourselves, you know, it’s really important to do that because again, if you do the work from the beginning, you can actually set the confirmation bias in your and your clients are gonna look for evidence that confirms what they already think and know and believe about your expertise and the copy that you’re writing.

Now one of the best ways to start doing this is through a skill called framing, and Stacy, your example of even naming the calls, approval calls. So when you’re presenting your copy, that is such a good example of framing because what that does is that the frame of reference for the call as, okay, this is the time and space where we’re going to just approve the copy. It’s like a check, a checkbox process. It’s not like a call where we’re going to talk about what you like and what you don’t, it’s me telling you what works and why. So it’s what really simply framing is just a way to set the scene or set the focus for what’s follow.

And as well as doing this with the copy itself. Of course, you can also do this with how you position yourself.

So as an example, obviously, I’m the mindset coach here in CSP, so some things that might be relevant for you guys to know about me are that I spent three years lecturing various psychology and psychotherapy subjects at a university here in Sydney.

I have a bunch of various articles and publications in which I’ve been quoted as an expert source for various psychology and psychotherapy, topics, and I also have a lot of hands on experience working with counseling and therapy clients, you know, in real world scenarios, and have also managed various counseling practices too over the years. Could tell you that stuff is a way to frame my expertise, or I could tell you other things about myself, like the fact that I’m once dressed up as a fart, that I didn’t get my driver’s license until I was thirty two years old because I hit a pole in my first, driving test when I was seventeen or that I have a thing for getting inside of boxes.

Now, obviously, the lot of three examples, don’t have any bearing on my expertise or the value I bring to the table but they do have a bearing on the perception of that, right, how likely you are to actually trust my expertise, and see me as the right person for the job. So obviously a bit of a silly example, but I just wanna share that as a way to illustrate that effective framing isn’t about changing the facts. It’s just about shining the spotlight on the right pieces.

So to help you think about how to do this in your positioning, and I’m sure these are questions you’re already thinking about as part of the red thread process and as part of planning out your authority building for the the coming quarters, you know, what expertise and experience do you have that qualifies you for the work you do? What is it about your process that gets gets results, because often if a client can buy into your process and your way of working, that goes a long way too in helping them understand where copy is coming from, and the process behind actually getting that on the page.

Another question for you to mull on too is how you can communicate or leverage or already from the first point of contact with your prospects or clients. Right? So how can you make sure in a way that’s not arrogant or annoying that this client knows that you are a really qualified, expert in the specific field in which they’re looking for assistance with. So thinking about all these things, and being able to communicate those with your prospects and your clients from that sales and onboarding phase is really going to help you when it comes to presenting your copy.

As well as using framing to really present yourself and position yourself in the best light.

It is also often helpful think about some copy specific seeds you may want to plant, again, through that, content marketing, through that sales process and through the onboarding process.

So for example, you might want to be talking about the importance of voice of customer research and how to leverage that data in your copy.

I know that when I first discovered conversion copywriting back in, I think it must have been twenty seventeen, there was a phase there where I was moving from tackling copy as a more creative process to obviously, doing it as a more scientific process, with or the data involved, in getting everything really on point.

And because I was still at that stage working with clients who were viewing copy as that more like creative, like, writerly kind of process. It was a bit of a hard sell with voice of customer to begin with, obviously that changed as I leveled up and my clients also leveled up. But if you are sort of in that phase now, one thing that I found can be really helpful to help a client who’s never heard of the idea of voice of customer before to help them buy into, you know, paying you for your time while you’re engaging in that research process is to say something like, hey, remember the last time that you were in a room with someone, and they said the exact same thing you were thinking.

Like in that moment, didn’t you feel like you had an instant rapport with that person? Like, wow. We’re on the same page. Like, you understand me or you felt validated in what you were thinking about because other person has just voiced it, you know, they are the kinds of things that really good voice of customer can do in the relationship between you and your prospect.

So bringing that concept that’s quite nerdy versus customer, right? It’s quite jargonistic. We obviously know about it as copywriters, but the average business owner may not bringing that into a really relatable metaphor can be a really good way to get buy in. And again, when we’re talking about, you know, framing and planting seeds and fitting that confirmation bias in your favor, if you’re able to really communicate the value of that, then when they hear you talk about, okay, I hear this section here, like ninety percent of this is just raw voice of customer data, you know, look at the way it really, you know, speaks it in such an emotive resonant way, etcetera, etcetera, they’re more likely to accept that and you know, be happy for that to make it out into the wild rather than, look at that and say, oh, that the grammar’s not right, or, you know, it doesn’t sound doesn’t sound so nice.

Could we just change this word, so thinking about things from that perspective?

It might also be useful given that copy being too long seems to be a key objection for some people in the group, planting the seed that your copy’s length is far less important than its performance. Right? No copy ever performed well simply because it was short or simply because it was long. It’s a decision that you, the expert, will make as you do the research, as you understand the prospect, as you understand the offer, as you understand your clients’ voice, etcetera, and you bring all that together into something that is best designed to hit their goals for the project.

You may also wanna talk about the value of testing and optimization for the simple fact that I think you know, while, of course, we can present copy that is as informed as it could possibly be and is ideally going to perform well there’s almost always room for improvement. So once it’s out in the wild, once it’s been tested for a while, being able to optimize and tweak, and increase conversions in, you know, some some way shape or form. So I think the more you can also talk about that, the more likely it is that a client will be amenable or open to you saying, look, this is, what I think is going to work best.

Obviously can’t be a hundred percent certain of that, but I’m hundred percent certain that this is what we should be testing to begin with. They’re more likely to buy into that to be okay with that to come along for the ride, I guess, rather than pushing back, and turning your copy into something that looks very, very different to what you’ve actually written in the first place.

Let me get down a level and talk about some handy skills that you can use to actually justify your copy. So when you’re having those conversations with your clients, think it’s always so important to reinforce the why. So to join the dots between what you’ve done and why it matters. So, you know, how this decision with this section here or this header here or this CTA being where it is, how that’s actually going to serve your client’s goals. Because what that does is clarify what’s in it for them, and of course as human beings, they all like to know what’s in it for us all the time, and therefore increases buy in. So magic phrases here to use are things like so that because that wave, which allows us or which allows you to. And as an example of how this can look even in a Google doc, because I know that not always do you have the chance as you’ve both mentioned to actually get on a call with your client live, and walk things through.

This is a half day rate that I worked on with the client. It was only a couple of months ago. Yeah, we got September.

So my Google docs, in these situations where there’s not time to do, a a call to get to get everything signed off on, my Google Docs are littered with these kind of explanations. And you can see here, like, how much y is in this one. So These are all from your client intake forms under a great example of the voice of customer data we were talking about this morning by communicating your ideal prospects prostrations in their own words, a copy resonates with them more deeply, letting them know they’re in the right place and the struggles are normal and therefore solvable, Since you know exactly who you want to target for this intake, there’s no mention of the kinds of challenger studio owners outside of small town independent studios face. So things like franchising, high staff turnover, etcetera. It’s another way to highlight who the program is and isn’t for, so you spend less time dealing with people you don’t want to work with.

So you can see in that justification and explanation there, there’s so many reasons why what the client is seeing is right there on the page. And I think when you are able to justify things really clearly and link them back to the goals that you’ve spoken about with your client, obviously the chances of them pushing back on that are going to get smaller and smaller, and the chances of you being able to walk away without having to make any changes or any tweaks to your copy then having that copy go into the wild and performing really well, like they’re all really high. So just an example of what’s explaining the why it can look like.

I have also found, for me and for a lot of my coaching clients as well, it’s incredibly useful to use metaphor, to help explain unfamiliar things. So, for example, the voice of customer metaphor that I gave for, you know, when someone has said something that you were thinking at the exact same moment. So the idea here is to liken something unfamiliar to something that’s inherently known or understood.

Because that provides a really compact and memorable way of expressing unfamiliar or difficult concepts or ideas, and it also leverages the power of a known experience So it aids understanding or buy in in a way that literal explanations can’t. So jargon often is an enemy, I guess, in the justification process because if you’re not speaking in terms that your client knows or understands, it can be really hard for them to, like, feel comfortable understanding what you’re talking about, and therefore putting that out, you know, with their business attached to it, putting that out onto the internet or into letterboxes or whatever, wherever your client is using that your copy and your marketing Another metaphor that I think can be helpful, and this is particularly when you’re having conversations with a client about the length of copy or copy being too long can be, okay, imagine that you’re a fly on the wall at say a car, a car yard, and you’re watching one salesman, having conversations throughout the day trying to sell cards to different people.

Imagine if that’s if that salesman was having the exact same conversation with every single person who came through the door, you know, because your sales page is your salesperson for this offer, you know, there needs to be a bit of nuance in there and there needs to be enough information that your ideal prospect can come in and get what they need to make an informed decision. So this page isn’t this long just because I wanna force everyone to sit at their computer ten minutes and, and, you know, and read the whole thing, it’s this long because it has the information that your prospect needs to make that informed decision and to make it confidently, whether they do want to take the step, whether that’s joining your list or signing up to your thing or buying your product.

And you can also talk here about the fact that as a copywriter, you’re leveraging things like section heads and appropriately placed CTAs to give people the pathways they need when they might need it. Just like the salesman at the car shop, car shop at the car yard, will also probably give different people different ins and outs to taking that next step. Would you like to have a test drive now? Or, okay, well, should we sign the papers? So thinking about that too can just be a nice way for people to understand why something is the length it is.

As a very small example, this is taken again from sales page. I think from a day rate, I think it might have been last year, but the client was asking for the FAQ section, what do you think about having them be in drop down menu form, versus having all of them and their answers on full display. And I’ve said option two for sure, FAQs are such a missed opportunity on sales pages, it’s a last chance of persuasion, not a simple bucket for WES and Watts.

If it helps think about the last time Lovely faces are blocking there we go. You searched, for information on deliveries and returns.

Chances are that page had more questions or bits of intel than you needed, you probably would have scanned down to find what you were after. And if the piece of intel you needed wasn’t there, chances are you abandoned your cart rather than going to the effort of contacting the store. So again, just a way of putting, your point across in a way that’s really relatable and easy to grasp for your client, that going to increase the chances that they’re going to be very happy with the decision and the justification that you’re presenting them.

You can also put put it back on them. So in cases where you get a request for a change, or you’re just like, oh, this is a terrible idea.

You’re asking a question. So for example, how many of your prospects do you think would understand this word with the intention of getting your client to realize or articulate something you already know or suspect This can be such a handy skill to use, because it’s far more powerful than simply telling them because it’s helping them draw their own conclusions about something rather than trying to tell them what’s correct. So when delivered with curiosity and not SAS, stiff condition, logic, objection, and create space for new understanding, So as an example, this is from a sales page I wrote years ago, the client said, thanks, Kirsty. It looks great. Wondering what you think about weeding this in somewhere in the section that’s describes the course, the watchful lighthouse for your next level.

Obviously, not a great phrase, and not one that I would wanna have on a sales page, but they’ve said our previous contact manager came up with it and it’s on a lot of our collateral.

So my response here was I’d love to hear you talk me through it so I can help you make the right call. What does it mean? What will someone think or feel when they read it? So this is me putting it on them rather than telling them straight out what I think, and the response I got was, you know, Amber and I sat with this neither of us could answer. I guess it’s about keeping an eye on obstacles, but that does seem like a weird way to say it. Let’s scratch it. And great because that meant that they basically justify themselves out of making a change was not going to aid the copy or its performance.

A final pep talk before we can, discuss things in more detail and get into any nitty gritty or specific scenarios you two have. The truth is that you can’t control what your client decides to do with the copy you present, but you can control how you justify your work so that it has the best possible chance of making it out into the world as intended.

So in those situations where you have to work hard to make your case, mull on this, Ultimately, will your client be happier if they get their preference or if they get results? And I think keeping this in mind can really help in those situations where your mindset gets a bit wobbly if you’re put on the spot to justify something, you know, remember this, they’ve hired you to get results, not to be a yes man or a yes woman.

Remember that you’re actually on the same team as your client, so don’t be afraid to remind them that hitting their goal is good for your business too. Right? Of course, you wanna provide them with copy and strategy that’s going to help them be a really great case study for you because that’s great for them, and it’s also going to be great for you to leverage in your as a case study or a testimonial or social proof or whatever it might be. So I think keeping these things in mind can be really helpful and take some of that fear and some of that heat and some of those nerves out of any of those conversations where you are in a situation where you’re on a back and forth about a particular piece or section of your copy.

Alright. Any questions or any specific situations you wanna troubleshoot?

Hang on. Let me escape this so I can see your faces in a bigger way.

There we go.

Any questions, guys? And don’t feel obliged. Don’t feel like you have to think of something, but we have lots of time and lots of opportunities. So if there’s anything I can help with, just let me know.

I just wanted to say that I enjoyed your, your take on all of that. There were lots of really good tid tidbits in there. So thank you.

Oh, my pleasure.

Is there anything else I can help you guys with, like, anything you wanna use? Cause we have half an hour still. Is there any time, like, anything CSP related that I can help you think through, talk through?

I didn’t come prepared with any questions. So I I don’t have anything on my mind that I wanna think through or talk through.

No. That’s all good. No worries. Well, I’m always in Slack too if you think of something later.

What about you? Yeah.

I don’t have any specific questions either, but definitely really found your talk beneficial. Like, I I liked how you talked about metaphor as well. I think the framing part and the metaphors are definitely something and, you know, it’s actionable.

So Awesome.

Good. Yes. And feel free to pinch those metaphors too. Like if they if they feel like they’re gonna work with connect with your clients, like, they’re all yours to take and use. And again, I just wanna say it’s tasty how much I love that you call your walk through call the approval call. I think that’s genius.

I’m gonna compliment you.

Thank you.

You know, I I can’t I can’t remember who I got that from, and maybe my colleague Erica. It was one of the I got it from another, another storybrand, certified guide who who used it first. So I can’t claim to be the originator of that. But ever since I heard somebody do it, I went, of course, why have I why have I not been doing that all along?

Yes. Genius. Oh, well, you’ve been to trace it to us. So thank you.

Yes. Everyone should do the approval call. I even have it. I mean, I, you know, here’s here’s what’s gonna happen. We’ll do this and then this, and then we’ll let’s go ahead and schedule your approval call. I schedule the approval call at the end of the of the intake call.

So Yep.

Perfect. I do that too. With all my calls from my projects, everything’s booked in as soon as they sign their proposal, just so we know what’s coming up when and what the purpose of each interaction is. Partly because of framing, but also because I’m someone who just likes to know what’s coming up next, and I love a good deadline.

You know, I do. I have one question.

You know, as I ninety ninety nine percent of the time, everything goes awesome. I had one client this past year who, you know, what what do you do when the lawyer starts editing your copy?

Not and not just because of legal review because, you know, I don’t know. They just thought that they knew better and rewrote everything.

So the copy that I wrote ended up being, like, ninety percent rewritten at which time I mean, I just kind of disengaged completely and let let them do what they wanted to do, but I’m curious how you would handle a scenario like that.

Yeah. So just to check, it wasn’t for compliance reasons. It was just No.

It’s not for compliance reasons. They were, one of the you know, one of the co founders of the company and just, you know, thought that they could write it better.

Yes.

I feel for you. I feel like that can happen. I’ve never had it with a lawyer, but with, yeah, co founder or with a designer sometimes, if the designer tells the client, but they think this will look better, you know, if it’s only if they take this section out, whatever, and you’re like, no. You need this section.

This is an important section. So I think the conversation there should be, you know, delivered obviously with tact, but something that communicates the fact that you know, okay, I, you know, I understand that you, obviously, you know, you’re tied so closely to this business as the co founder, like, I can really understand that you, you know, you want to really have a say in what makes it out into the world. I just wanna remind you that you’ve hired me for this specific job because of my expertise, you know, I would never try and advise you on on the legal aspects of your business. You know, at the end of the day, the call is yours.

Obviously, it’s your business, but the copy I presented really is the copy that I think will help you hit your goals in the best possible way on the timeline, you know, etcetera, etcetera. So communicating that kind of message, obviously the way you communicate it is quite important because you don’t wanna come off sort of combative and dismissive, but I think it is key to remind them that, you know, you’ve been hired specifically for the copy of the strategy, you know, you would never I would never, you know, when it’s a designer, like, you know, god, I don’t know how to design a sales page to save my life, but, you know, I would never try and advise on that.

So just remind them what they’re paying for, I think, is is really the best you can do. And, like, as you said Stacy, like, there are some situations, and there are some clients that are just gonna do what they’re gonna do regardless, but I think if you know that you’ve made the best case that you can for copy that you’ve written, like that really is where your control ends in that scenario, and sometimes you do just have to let it go, and it really sucks.

Yeah. Yeah. I have a another, another, colleague in the in the guide community who He has a thing. He calls it the push back once rule.

He will he will do his very best to push back once And then after that, you know, if they keep insisting, I mean, they’re the client. It’s their decision.

Yes.

You can’t save them from themselves.

That’s right. You can’t.

You can’t. And I think if they’re that kind of client, so, you know, you just kind of, yeah, you just have to roll with it and let it go as best you can I mean, the fact that ninety nine percent of the time you’re getting no or very few requests for changes or pushback in anything, I think that shows that you’re doing a phenomenal job?

So I’d say just keep doing what you’re doing.

And, you know, if you if you need help, if you get another lawyer who tries to step in, post something in Slack.

Hopefully, that’s not gonna happen again. Oh, man. I had I hope that that’s, hopefully, that’s a once in a lifetime scenario.

I mean, lawyers by nature. They love to redline things. That’s what they do.

That’s right. It was I’ll be like, yes. I’m in my, like, my happy place. Any lost questions, guys?

Not for me.

I’m okay as well.

Okay. Alright. Well, I guess we’ll end things there then. Thank you so much for showing up. It was nice to see you. Would love to see you both. Enjoy some time off over the next week or two.

And yeah, I’ll see you guys in Slack, I think I’m also doing a copy review tomorrow too because I don’t know if either of you will be there, but if you are, I’ll see you then.

Yeah, we’ll be in touch.

Okay.

Have a great day.

Bye. You too. Bye.

Worksheet

Setting Your Rate & Knowing Your Worth

Transcript

So as you all, rightfully know, this workshop is all about setting your rate and knowing your worth.

So quick sort of temperature check, in the room, when it does come to conversations and decisions around pricing and setting rates, like how are you feeling? Is the general vibe that you’re worried you’re undercharging? Do you sometimes worry that you’re overcharging? Is it just that you spend a lot of time caught up, in these questions in your head as you go about your work and your business? You just give me like a one sentence insight for each of you in terms of sort of where you’re at?

I can give you a one word in this both.

Okay. Awesome. I love that. Very relatable.

Seriously, I’m in a house, so I’m not doing a whole lot of pricing.

Cool. Are you looking to go out on your own anytime soon, Randall? Is this part of plan?

Or So, yeah.

There I mean, just maybe this is TMI, but I when I signed up for this, it looked like I might be going back on contracts. With the same company I’m working for. Gotcha. In that moment for now has passed.

Mhmm.

But I’m thinking that just what I see with AI and whatnot, maybe it might be a good idea for me to, yeah, pick the thing and run out as far ahead of the blob of the seeping blob of AI, So that’s, yes, definitely giving consideration to, you know, doing a bit more networking, the next, you know, six to ten months. And then, yeah, giving real, I guess, consideration to going back out of my own again, probably about a year from now.

Awesome. Cool. Well, this could all be stuff that you tuck in your back pocket for if or when that time comes.

Absolutely.

And Julian, what about you? Where are you at when it comes to thinking about pricing?

I would say I’m probably more on the side of undercharging.

Was that under or over? Sorry. Under. Under. Okay. Yep. Awesome. Alright. Well, let’s start here, just with what we can expect to dive into today.

So I’m sure that all of you here have probably heard the advice when it comes to pricing that good pricing is all about ROI and or it’s about charging what you’re worth so today I really wanna challenge both of those statements because I think while there is, like, a little nugget of truth in both of those, pricing is far more nuanced, than either of these statements actually allows for. So the more we can move away from these sort of blanket all or nothing statements, I think the easier pricing actually becomes.

We’re also going to hopefully uncover some of the internal narratives that might be getting in the way of you charging the rate that you want to or the rates that you feel comfortable doing, and also, lastly, a fix for the fact that no matter how expert you are or how expert you become, you can never guarantee your copy’s performance one hundred percent, which of course can be one of those things that does make pricing challenging, particularly from a mindset point of view.

Now Abby, shared some really, generous beautiful insights into her challenges with pricing inside of the Slack group. And one of them was this, my secret wish would be for someone to review my end to end service and copy, and then give me a number. Congratulations, your work is worth this many dollars. And I was just wondering, does that wish resonate with anyone in here?

Yeah. I mean, that that’s certainly be awesome if it was that great porta book.

Alright.

This looks like about, you know, five hundred bucks an good stuff and go ahead and go out and get it, you know.

Yep. And Randall, I think I saw your mouth moving, but you’re on mute. Sorry.

Oh, I was, like, yeah. And my my machine’s breathing a little heavy, so I actually missed a bit what Nolan said.

Yeah, I don’t know if my statement would have that many x’s at the end. Monday maybe, but, yeah.

I love that. Yep. Cool. And thumbs up from Julian. Yeah. Awesome. I feel like it is such a normal desire to have because, of course, it is such a great idea to be able to outsource those things that are really uncomfortable for us, and to have someone else word or valuation to stand behind, when you are quoting a price for a project, and I think there’s a lot less mindset in talking about pricing if you’re working inside of an agency or another business, than when you’re actually creating your own prices for yourself as a service provider, So just wanted to put that out there to help normalize this, and then deep start to dig into this a little bit more.

So the pricing is about more than ROI, and ROI is about more than money.

So one of the objections I always get, when I’m working with coaching clients inside my own programs, is that because you write launch copy and for you, you know, it’s so easy to draw a really direct line of ROI between your work and the money made for that business, which is true. It is in launches. You know, you have so many data points, and you can, you know, quite easily, get a pretty solid idea of your impact on that business’ revenue from that project.

But of course, ROI is about a lot more than money. So let’s dive into these two points to start with.

So factors that influence pricing include everything from your target market and of course there is a ceiling for a certain type of golf with a certain type of client, and I always like to make this point because I feel that sometimes there can just be that overwhelming advice that comes out you to just continually raise your rates, raise your rates, raise your rates, but the fact is that there is a point at which you will max out, rates if you’re doing the same kind of project with the same kind of client. So at that point, something needs to shift and change, whether that’s the service you’re offering or the client who you’re servicing.

Supply and demand, obviously, also influences pricing, and I think this, folds in nicely to everything you’re doing inside in terms of really, getting known and building your expertise, because of course, you know, someone like Joe, who is obviously incredibly well known and respected in the copywriting world. I’m sure she has far more projects coming at her than she can accept. So, having less supplied than its demand obviously means that, you can charge higher rates, because you are a scarce resource.

Comtaining offers also matter, particularly in terms of how yours compares, whether that is the fact that it’s you who’s actually offering that service and in your prospect’s eyes, that makes it a more valuable thing, or whether it’s because, you know, your has a more holistic approach or they get more, deliverables, whatever that might look like, positioning, which is your ability to actually communicate your offer in terms of its features, benefits, any guarantees you can offer, those comparisons too with your competitors can often be really, really key in good positioning, and of course also the social proof so that you can prove that, you know, people are actually very likely to get, the results that you are talking about, as you promote your offer.

So the other major factor that influences pricing is, of course, you, so your financial needs and goals, the way you want to work the clients you want to work with, the expertise you’re willing to build, the demand you’re able to create, and, of course, the price you’re confident charging So in other words, all that mindset stuff that comes alongside of all the positioning stuff on the first slide.

So I think, you know, It can help full of things that were on the previous slide to think about something as simple as like the cheese cabinet at your local supermarket. You know, there’s a whole range of different options there, and each of those are positioned for a certain market. You know, they’ll be the cheap five dollar block of cheese that, you know, might be targeted towards families or students or whoever, and there might be the fancier, you know, rounds of brie that are twelve dollars a pop that obviously have a different target market, and they are positioned and packaged, etcetera accordingly.

So that can be sort of a helpful metaphor I think start thinking through the positioning of your offer and the price it should be given who it’s for, what it offers, etcetera, etcetera.

We will obviously be diving into everything on this slide, in a few more minutes, but while we’re talking about the more, I guess, practical elements of pricing, I wanted to just spend a couple of minutes talking about non monetary ROI because I know for some of you in the group, the line between your work and money made for your clients is harder to draw or sometimes not even that relevant.

So So other really valuable things that clients can get from the kind of work that we in this group provide are things like competence or legitimacy so for example, if someone is an excellent service provider, but they have a website that they built themselves two years ago on a dodgy like WordPress template, you know, being able to, have a website that’s professionally done messaged professional copy, etcetera, can really help with that sense of legitimacy around their business and their work.

Clarity as well. So often, even working, as I do with launch clients are being able to get real clarity on what it is they’re offering and being able to have the words with which to communicate that can be credibly valuable because it allows them to do things like appear on podcasts or on stages and talk about their business and their work, a lot more easily.

Opportunity, of course. So, you know, if you’re able to provide a client with a service that sort of helps them go up a level or become more visible, there’s going to be in all likelihood more opportunities come their way. There can also be things like customer or client status action. So example, for example, if you optimize UX, so if you’re working with a business on their onboarding sequence, for example, and didn’t have one before, that optimized UX, even though it comes after the point of sale, can help with things like retention, etcetera, etcetera.

So note that all of these can and often do lead to monetary gains, it’s just that the line between them is less direct or harder to measure. So if you are working in a space with one or more of your offers where the ROI isn’t necessarily all about money, or it may be kind of about money, but you’re like, how do I actually prove or measure this? Here are some tips. So find out what matters to your prospects and why.

So for example, if a prospect says to you, I just wanna site that makes me look look legit. Like, I’m over this dodgy DIY version I’ve had for the last year and a half, make sure that you ask them. Okay. What will that allow you to do? Why is that important to you right now? Because then you’ll get to the point where they might say something like, that way I’ll be more likely to pitch myself for those bigger deal opportunities. You know, I’ll be likely to put myself front of, the bigger deal clients, or I’ll reach out to pitch more in person events, whatever that might look like to them.

So, of course, in that scenario, if your client is doing more pictures and they have the assets to back them up, whether that is the words to talk about what it is they actually do and what they offer and what their expertise is, or, again, a website in this example that actually displays their for these, illegitimacy, words from, you know, clients who they’ve done really amazing work with, that equals more chances of lending gigs, which equals greater exposure, more leads, and ideally more revenues. So as you can see, in a scenario like this, the line between the you do and the money your client stands to make from it is quite removed, but in this situation, it still is there.

So what you wanna do is once you’ve identified that, assuming you close the project, you know, it’s actually then go back and close the loop. So remember to ask about those things once the project wraps and there’s been opportunity for these desires to be realized. So, I mean, ideally you don’t wanna ask for feedback about your work, you know, two days after you submit because there would have been no chance for it to be liven out in the wild and helping their client, helping your client achieve all these goals that they have for it.

But that way, if there is a line to draw between your work and dollars made, you’ve got a really concrete way to do it. Right? You’ll have a testimonial. You’ll have social proof, which you can then leverage, throughout your assets and your online presence and in your sales process trial. And even if there’s no line to draw, which again, no problem at all, people will pay good money for things that are not all about money and profit, you still have proof of the outcomes that matter.

So just just a little reminder that ROI can and often does look different to purely monetary things, and I think getting an understanding of this stuff can also help with your positioning in your USPS. So for example, even though I worked in launches, one thing my clients will very regularly say about working with me is that I just took everything off the plate, their plate, and made their launch so low stress and so easy and almost enjoyable. And I found that has been a really valuable piece of the puzzle for me to leverage my social footprint in my marketing to help me land more clients and specifically more of the clients that I wanna work with, and of course that has nothing to do with the the actual money made.

Alright. Diving a little bit deep now into the more mindset side of pricing.

So Abby also shared that I’m craving external validation and permission to charge more. But there’s still a feeling of who am I to ask for all this money.

Angelian, you said that you sort of are earning more towards side of being like you’re undercharging. So this may hit home for you.

I don’t know if you’re free to give me a thumbs up if it does and, you know, ignore me if it doesn’t, and no one may It does.

Okay. Awesome. And Nolan little nod there, I think, from you too. This sounds like an resonant sometimes.

Sometimes I’m like, oh, this is awesome, you know, and then I’m like, yeah, my goodness. This, but then, you know, the KPIs tend to speak for them ourselves, or or sometimes they don’t, you know.

Yeah.

That’s the beauty of our the nature of our work, you know.

That’s why we test too.

Absolutely. Yeah. Testing, oh my god. So much value in that process.

And Randall, I think you might have been about to say something? So you unmute?

Well, when I was, yeah, on the market, definitely trying to figure out, Yeah. Why should somebody pay me this kind of cash?

Mhmm.

Yep. Yes. I think almost every business owner has this worry at one time or another, and it can be quite a persistent question. And I think again, this is one of the things that is really problematic about the advice of charging what you’re worth So let’s dive into this. So first up, two quick statements, your work does not equal your worth, as a human being, as a person, and your business doesn’t equal you. So what I mean by both of these statements, this is an example that I hope is relatable, When you buy KFC, are you thinking about paying the kernel or are you thinking about buying the chicken?

So I think it’s just so important to really set the right frame for the exchange because that’s what pricing is. Right? It’s about picking the number or learning on the number that is a fair exchange for the work the outcomes that you’re going to be able to offer the person purchasing.

So remember that your prospects aren’t buying you, right? It’s not a reflection of your worth as a human being, lot of reflection of, you know, how much an hour with you is worth as a person.

They’re buying a product And in many cases, also an experience, right? And this can be part of how you differentiate yourself and part of how you add real value to the people that you serve. That you offer with clear expectations around the exchange, including the process, the likely outcomes, and what you’ll do to minimize risk So, I mean, I think as you can probably tell by this statement, the best pricing and the best conversations around pricing are really transparent. Right? It’s about both parties being able to make a really informed decision on, is this worth the money that this person is charging?

So I think if you are ever getting stuck on questions like, oh god, can I really charge this much? Come back to this, and just remember that to set to set your sights on this, and to not worry about anything beyond this, because this is the question that you are answering whenever you pricing, a product or a service or a program.

I wanna dive into internal narratives here, particularly those around worth and what you deserve, you notice I have both of those words in quotations, I think throughout this whole presentation because I think they’re quite loaded, quite loaded terms.

So I think the fact of the matter is that most of us have stumbled into copywriting, and there’s no formal universal process of accreditation. Right? It’s not like if you’re a doctor, for example, or a therapist where you have to meet certain requirements and also maintain, a currency within that industry, right, you have to do, while listing Australia, you certainly have to attend a certain number of training and get a certain number of hours of supervision to be able to maintain a license that says that, yes, this person is qualified, and adequate to continue practicing. That does an existing copywriting, right?

So in other words, it’s largely up to us as individuals to view ourselves as being up to task, which means that the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and how we operate can be hugely influential.

Both in really positive, facilitative ways, but unfortunately more often, in ways that are quite restrictive or limiting.

So in tonal narratives, this comes from the world of psychology, which is what my background is in. I worked as a therapist for a number of years before I stumbled into copywriting, and I used to do a lot of narrative therapy with my clients as well. But basically, these are the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves and they are hugely influential because they do all sorts of things from shaping our identities to giving events in our lives, meaning They also tell us what we deserve, what we’re capable of, what our purpose is, and what our future should look like, and really at the crux of it, they influence the way we think feel and behave.

So for example, someone who has an internal narrative that I’m a slow learner is going to be less likely to seek and accept opportunities that put them in stretch and under pressure than someone who has an internal narrative that I always figure it out. So again, there’s a difference there between the internal narrative, which is what’s going on inside here, and the actions that we’re taking in the world, but there is a direct link between the two.

So therefore, in this scenario, person a, the I’m a slow learner is going to grow in skill and confidence more slowly than person b, and this is regardless of their expertise or ability. Right? So these stories we tell ourselves often have no burnt and no bearing on how qualified we are but they do have a huge influence on how we act and how we show up in the world and also, of course, how we approach our pricing and those conversations around that and the feelings that we have around that. So if you need I I wanna stop here and just ask if Any of you have any insight into what some of those internal narratives are for you, particularly when it comes to how they may influence your pricing.

And if it helps, like, as a personal example, when I first started copywriting, I came from an industry from psychotherapy that was highly regulated you know, I had postgraduate degree. I was registered with the relevant body here in Australia, etcetera, etcetera. There were so many checkpoints for me to go to, and then all of a sudden was in this profession that really just relied on me saying, Hey, I’m a copywriter now.

So for the long time, the first probably twelve, eighteen months of been in business, one of my internal narratives was like, you know, no one’s qualified me for this. So that was something that really impacted how I showed up the kind of work that I accepted and sought out and also the price of the decisions that I made. So I’m just wondering, Nolan Randall, Julian, is there anything coming up for any of you in terms of some of these stories that might be going around in your heads.

Here’s the I think for me, it was a matter of the question of selling. What was the big story?

And that, I, you know, growing up I’m much more close to identify with my dad than I do with my mom. My mom was in real estate.

She sold and sold and sold, all the time, you know, dinner after dinner, you know, I mean, not quite that bad, but, you know, She slept tonight.

And, And so I didn’t wanna be in sales. That was a big part of who I thought I was.

Mhmm.

And then when I left the academy and went to sales, that was that was hard.

And finding that strategy, you know, and you know, tapping into people’s needs rather than, and, you know, how I could provide solutions, that was hard. It was really hard. So not quite, I think, in terms of, this example, exactly. But, yeah, that that story, until I switch, from the selling to the solutions part. It took a while.

So Yes. Totally. And I know, and I think that’s a really great example. And maybe it’s not specific the pricing, but definitely to the process of lending clients, you know, because if you have a narrative that, like, I’m not a salesperson or, you know, even something like sell selling is unethical, and I didn’t know if that was quite correct for you or selling is IKE, that’s obviously going to impact the way that you show up to those conversations and those tasks. So that’s an awesome example. Thanks, Randall.

Nolan, I see you unmuted yourself.

Oh, yeah. No. Sorry. Yeah. No. That was that was awesome. Really well said that. Yeah.

So for me, I have two that instantly come to mind. And one that I know is, like, a more positive one, which is, like, I’m good with analytics and math because you mentioned real estate. That’s like what my background is, and I had that same thing where I hated the idea of sailing because before that, even I did, like, accounting and bookkeeping fellowship, used to crunching numbers and things like that. And then when I got into real estate, I was like, oh, man.

I I have to and I I’m okay with talking with people. I’m completely fine with that. I mean, the the fact that it’s, like, I need to be a little bit pushy. So what I found is a strategy that works for me to get people sold is, like, similar to you doing copywriting, you know, you speak to the one odd And for me, that was people who were like data geeks and wanted to know, like, macroeconomic facts about, like, the local market and things like that.

So I just spoke to that and I I stuck with that. And then the one thing that this is a little more specific to pricing is that, like, holy shit, I just made, you know, more than a hundred dollars in an hour for x amount of hours. Like, I’m not used to that, you know. It’s like it’s kinda crazy.

Mhmm. But then again, it’s like you said, just going back on the, the internal narrative kinda thing. It has to kinda it’s really strong stuff, but it’s, like, just kinda resonating right now. Like, because it goes into the subconscious that you build yourself where it’s, like, either I’m a slow learner, so I’m going to go about this differently. Like, you’re setting yourself up for these kind of things.

So Yeah. Absolutely.

If they’re positive or negative or both or confusing, or jumble of all.

Right?

Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. There’s lots of gray in this. They’re not necessarily always positive or always negative. There can be some which can go either way depending on the situation in the scenario, and the events that are unfolding around you.

Right.

Anything you wanted to share Julian and no pressure if you if you nothing’s coming or you’d rather not. That’s okay.

Nothing’s specific. It’s going to mine right now, but I’m I’m sure I have some of it.

No. No worries.

So I think one of the things that, is really useful to keep in mind, I think, when you are starting to spend some time trying to identify and then work with or work through those internal narratives that you may have that can get in the way of pricing and even selling as Randall and Ola Nubo shared, and I guess particularly if you’re thinking about any narratives around your worth, the narrative of I don’t know enough, which can be a common one if you’re in phase of learning a lot about copywriting or how to run a business, for example, that can be just as limiting as a narrative of I know it all. So people will often think that the answer to, like, not knowing enough is getting to the point magically somehow across some huge goal where all of a sudden you have all the information, you have all the answers, and you’re just like an infallible expert.

Both of those narratives, I think, are just as limiting because they both block learning and growth, and furthermore they rarely close sales. Right? The I don’t know enough person is likely to show up as being quite nervous, or maybe a little bit unqualified or, not as a partner, which if anyone watched my first training around sales calls, that is what good clients want. They want a partner, that they can work with towards the goal.

And someone who has a narrative of I know it all is likely to show up as being a bit of an arrogant dickhead, which is, again, someone that people probably don’t want to work with, right? And I think the, I know it all one is all often have blinkers on. They’ll be, convinced that their way is the right way, and they won’t have the flexibility to respond to challenges as they unfold, which let’s be honest, it is rare that you have a project that goes one hundred percent smoothly, and that everything that you think you’re gonna do at the beginning of the project is exactly what you do at the end.

There are often bumps and humps to overcome along the way.

So a far more fruitful narrative is I trust myself to figure it out, and I think one of the beautiful things about this is it’s takes away, the wait time between maybe not knowing enough and, like, having to magically somehow know everything, right? As you can be in the middle here and just be curious enough and open enough and have enough knowledge about what it is that you’re doing and who it is you’re working with to be able to make really informed decisions as you go. I think it also takes the pressure off, because it’s not about like being fully qualified and fully ready every single time for every single opportunity that comes knocking at your door, but it’s about saying, okay, this is gonna be a bit of a stretch or a bit of a challenge for me.

That’s a good thing. Like, let’s do this because I do back myself to actually be able to work through this in real time. And this kind of attitude is so appealing to clients too because It’s a bit like if you, I don’t know, like some plumbing in your house breaks and you don’t know what the problem is, but you know that your tap’s leaking and you can’t fix it, you know, it is a nice, safe feeling to be able to book a plumber, even if they can’t tell you over the phone, okay, it sounds like this is the problem. If they’re like, okay.

Yeah. I’m not sure, but I’ll definitely be able to work it out. Like, you know, I’ll come and have a look, and I’ll identify the problem, and I’ll, and I’ll give you a fix. So that can also be a helpful metaphor I think too when you’re thinking through what this narrative can look like in practice.

So in terms of how you build that narrative or more helpful narratives around, blocks you might have around things like sales, etc.

The key here is, a process called reauthoring, that’s what we call it in therapy, but basically it involves looking for exceptions to whatever limiting narratives you have around skills, your ability, or your worth, or selling, and mounting a case for more facilitative ones. So, single questions to ask here, if one of the narratives that does show up for you is around, you know, a lack of knowledge or skills or experience, can be one of you impressed a client or peer with your expertise, When have you surprised yourself with your know how or your ability, when have you got great results for a client or for yourself, don’t forget that often so many of the skills we use in our copywriting, projects are also applicable to what we’re doing in our own businesses.

When have you successfully tackled a new challenge or expanded your skills or expertise on the go, when has your work just flowed?

And for all of these questions, how did that feel? And focusing on the feeling of those experience. This is really important because as I’m about to show you, that helps, really rewire the brain in a more substantial, way.

Some other questions that you could ask. If you are stuck as, I mean, Randall, it sounds like you’re past this now, Nolan, I think you might be as well, but for anyone who’s an idiot watching the replay, and you identified with, what those two have shared about some feelings around sales and selling, you know, some of these questions could be, for example, when did a sales conversation feel more like service, for example, or when did having making a sale result in solving someone’s problem. So trying to find things that are exceptions to the rule or the idea or the story or the narrative in your head that, you know, selling is icky or like I’m not a salesperson, like finding exceptions to that so that you can thicken that experience.

And ideally, over time, and, with repeated, focusing on these exceptions to whatever that narrative might be, building those neural pathways in your brain so that you’re more wired, quite literally, like in a physical way, to expect those experiences, and therefore to act and respond to events in a way that aligns with those rather than the more, restrictive narratives that you may have at play.

So just some quick neuroscience here, and this may be old news to some of you, but our brains do have a bias towards both encoding and retaining more negative experiences, because from an evolutionary perspective, it’s important for us to have an almost automatic response to danger. If we’re in a situation that is dangerous, we wanna be able to respond without thinking. Crossing the road, there’s a car coming at you. You wanna be able to jump out of the way, without really having to think, oh, there’s a car. Oh, it’s coming quite fast and, you know, get hit.

So for that reason, unfortunately, it is the more negative experiences, which do make more substantial neural pathways in our brains. So these are often actually called in the in the literature channel. I love this term, superhighways, because those neural pathways are so established so thick and so smooth, it actually makes it very easy, for our brains to, like, send signals and synapses down those pathways. There’s very little resistance unfortunately, they’re often thicker than the pathways that we have for more positive experiences, which of course creates a bit of a chicken and egg type scenario, because not only are we wired to, respond to those things more quickly and more readily and to just jump down that path, we’re also more wired to attend to those things. So again, it’s about how we view and interpret the world and how we respond and behave based on those interpretations.

So, the good news, as you will no doubt, know, is that our brains plastic. Right? It’s never too late to change some of the wiring in our brain.

And, the process of reauthoring, so of spending time attending to noticing reliving dwelling.

That’s funny. I feel like you really get the in life to dwell on something, but dwelling on those more positive experiences, or those exceptions to whatever more challenging narratives you have around pricing and worth and value and expertise, etcetera.

That can be visualized as a small tree, growing Well, sorry, put your little lovely heads in the way, growing an increasing number of limbs as clients notice and re experience moments that can be connected to the preferred neural network, While this network may remain thin or sketchy at first, through repeated neural linking and firing, it will progressively expand in thickness and speed of connection.

So basically all of this stuff, I know it might sound quite woo woo, but it’s based in science, and I think the really cool thing is that it’s based in like physical so stuff that if you had access to functional MRIs, you would be able to see over time those connections thickening and becoming the preferred, preferred course of response inside of your brain. So it really is about changing the way you think in order to change the way that you act.

So the last thing I wanted to just touch on here, and then let’s have a nice juicy discussion. If yes, we’ll have time, on whatever’s come up for you. So this is the last thing that I’d be shared in Slack, and she said I have this comfort around charging good people for projects and I can’t guarantee they’ll make back their investment. What if I do everything I can to make the project a success, and it’s not enough?

Is this ever something that comes up for anyone when you are either selling a project, pricing project, or delivering a project?

Yeah. I relate to this one.

Yep.

Cool. Certainly. Yeah.

Yep.

And thumbs up from Randall. Yeah. And I mean, it is one of the facts about, you know, the work that we do. Right? There’s never any one hundred and ironclad guarantee, even if you do your best work, that it’s going to get the exact results that your client wants.

So because you can never fully guarantee results, think about what you can guarantee when you’re selling your offers or your products. So maybe it’s your process or parts of it. So for example, you can guarantee. So let’s say that you’re gonna do voice of customer research or you can guarantee that the client is going to see a messaging document before you go ahead and write the first copy asset. So they’ll be, you know, on board with the messaging and where it’s come from, etcetera, etcetera.

It could be that you’re guaranteed a round of optimization. And again, there’s no guarantee that that round of optimization is going to get to the promised land of results, but of course, the guarantee that you’re going to come back in at the relevant period of time and optimize what you can, you know, with the idea of improving the results that your client is seeing, that can be a really powerful thing to guarantee. Or it could even be something like a sixty minute strategy call say mid launch, often that’s a time when clients can start flipping out because there’s that mid launch dip or one month after the website goes live or whatever makes sense for the work that you do.

So those are just some ideas, and I think Whatever it is that you do want to guarantee about the work that you do, just make sure that it’s really specific and measurable or check offable because these things give you and your prospects confidence in your ability to deliver on it. Like it’s going to be something that both you and your client can confidently and honestly say, yep, I did that. That’s done. I’ve done what I’ve promised.

And I think by doing that, it does help, you get free of the discomfort around not being able to promise hundred percent the outcomes because you are promising something that you can absolutely control.

Did I deliver this part of my process? Did I show up for that sixty minutes strategy session? Did I do that round of optimizations? Both you and your client can say, yes, and I think that removes the friction around that and allows you to step into charging rates that are appropriate for the work that you’re doing.

And this is a final note on this guarantee stuff.

If you need help thinking through, what this might look like, this could be a helpful metaphor, imagine you order eggs benedict with smoked salmon at a cafe you’re trying out for the first time, but ends up being a bit meh, like it’s just not very tasty, whatever it might be. You’ve really got no form of recall right, other than to make an agreement with yourself never to go back there to get Brecky again. But if it comes out with him, you can then let the waiter know, hey, this isn’t what I ordered, feel pretty confident that the situation will be rectified. So you want to create this kind of clarity, for your prospect or for your client with whatever guarantee you So it’s something again that’s really specific, and really easily be able been able to be checked off as like either delivered or not.

Because again, that sort of certainty really increases both buyer confidence and also seller confidence, and can help you stand behind rates that are higher, and sell the sell those things more confidently. Alright.

So I wanted to leave some time for questions and also just diving into some of this stuff because obviously mindset stuff is, often quite personal, and see one little thing in the chat here.

Mylan wraps. What’s a mylan wrap, Randall?

Well, I think it’s the myelin that wraps around your neurons to Oh. The explanation.

If I I just Yeah.

What?

Think I’m hoping that the mylan wrapped around my memory of reading this awhile back. I was hoping you could confirm that.

I actually can’t. Sorry. Mylan wraps. It might I’ll I’ll I’ll check it out for you.

No big deal. There’s no No.

But I will. I’ll check it out for you. It’s not ringing any bills, but it definitely doesn’t mean that it’s not part of this process.

So let me I’ll I’ll get back to you in Slack.

Any questions, comments, anything anyone wants to workshop in terms of, you know, their thoughts around pricing, their specific challenges, Yeah.

I got a quick question on the the guarantee kind of thing. I think it, and it wasn’t your I have in my notes here somewhere.

So this might actually be voice of coach rather than voice of consumer, but I think, I have something in here that says, when you’re presenting an offer to someone, you could say something I’m a hundred percent certain that this is where we should begin testing, right, rather than saying, I think this is a hundred percent gonna get yield these specific results. Right?

Hundred percent. Yes.

Gotcha. And that’s such a reassuring thing, I think, for both of you, and I think that’s such a great way to have coming across as the expert that you are. Right? And yet it flips the frame in a way that doesn’t set you up for trouble or your client up for disappointment down the track.

Right? Because even with all the, you know, the proper data, sometimes, you know, we just need to test a different angle, and maybe that angle does three hundred percent better than the other, just off some small difference. Right?

Yep. Hundred percent. Love that. That was a very easy question.

That’s good, Noel. I like that. That’s nice.

Right. Voice of Coke, BOC. I love that we dove into some neuroscience because, my thing is all about, like, behavioral marketing strategy. And I’m reading this book right here. It’s all about behavioral science. It talks about some of that stuff you were going into.

So I was just like, wow, that’s crazy that I literally have this my address, you were talking about that.

How good? What a good coincidence?

Go ahead.

Anything else coming up for anyone?

More of a a thought to share rather than, like, a a question, but I do like, how you framed it is, and and additional to just like the ROI, how there’s a lot of not necessarily tangible measurements that go into your pricing, but things like, you know, the experience and the product. Right? And for my a dimensionalization thing. Like, I was just in Disneyland a few months ago, and, like, there’s a thing you can buy there where it’s, like, you can build your own lightsaber. Right? And it’s, like, a pretty good quality lightsaber. You’re mainly buying the experience because you can buy a a similar way higher quality light saber for much less.

Yes. Oh, yeah. I love that. I also really wanna go and do that.

Sorry. Yeah.

It seems like I missed out on it. I was like, okay, next time.

That’s the way it is.

Oh, but yeah, definitely.

It’s, I think, yeah, the advice that, like, good pricing is all about ROI, I think, Again, that’s, like, not nowhere near nuanced, nuanced enough, to be a helpful statement, but also I think it puts you in the frame of reference of thinking about money whereas, of course, ROI is often about so much more than money.

So it’s just about finding what the what the value in that service or that offer or that product is, and yeah, being open to that being a largely intangible thing.

So, you know, for example, I mean, coaching is a great example. Right? I mean, yes. Often, you know, when you work with a coach, that will end up in you making more profit, more revenue, etcetera, but the process by which that happens is often a bit indirect because it’s working on things like your mindset or it’s working on things that might be more process related. So yeah, just thinking through what that looks like for the work that you do can be really helpful, not just in you being able to set a better price, but also in you being able to communicate, the value and the position of your offer.

Right. No. That makes sense for sure. And also, like, to touch more on the the ROI, there’s like a a cost, not necessarily return, but, like, say, like, I think Ryan was talking about one of his workshops when you’re, like, productizing one of your services.

Not only needs to be simple for them to understand what it is. It needs to be simple for them to implement because you have to take into consideration the time and the team’s bandwidth, right, that you’re sending this over. And, like, what other systems do they have to do to juggle in your thing that’s gonna help them out. Like, is that gonna be easy?

Is that something they can do just like that?

Like, we have to consider that cost as well.

And another ROI, I think maybe it could even be like relationship with a client. Right?

Mhmm. Yeah. Definitely. Yes.

I mean, the experience, I guess, of working with can also be hugely valuable, or it could be hugely taxing, right, if that is not a good fit.

So, yeah. Right.

I’m sorry, but I’ve been like I had a headache so it’s like horizontal up right now.

I’m just gonna say you look lovely.

Yeah.

I know.

I was, like, lying down.

I have this has been really great, Christy. Thank you so much. No problem. I have kind of a more specific, like, scenario situation.

That I posted about in Slack, a few weeks ago I think you responded to because I was like, we’re coming up on the end of the year.

I was going to raise my rates for Mhmm.

Specifically my VIP days. Like, I’m fine with my big project rates.

Like, I’m raising those all the time when I, like, I feel good about those rates.

Awesome.

But I’ve just done the same VIP day, right, since I started doing them. Basically, I’ve done so many, and I even had, like, I think I shared in Slack, like, I had this client who had been doing regular days with multiple times a month for the past year straight, and he always he’s like, you need you you’re way under charging. You should be charging way more, like, gotten tons of results for him. Like, he’s like, you’re my secret weapon. You should raise your weights, not for me, of course, but for everyone else.

And, you know, and I I also, if you I just, like, haven’t because they’re so easy for me to sell. I don’t I don’t know if that’s really like a a mindset thing in terms of what I think it’s worth. It’s more just I think a fear of like that people just won’t pay. I don’t know.

I don’t know how to articulate it. It’s like people just don’t have that budget. That’s not what they’re expecting to pay and so I’m Like, okay. So I’ll just sorry.

I’m like a little incoherent because I’m have a headache, but No. Can I get through it?

So I told so I I did I doubled my rates and Joanna said to at least double them. She was like, oh, you should four or five x them. That felt too scary. So I doubled them.

And I told this client in particular.

And even though he’d said all those things, he was like, whoa, like, you know, doubling your way. It’s like, and I just didn’t didn’t say much. I was just like, yeah, you know, it’s overdue.

Mhmm.

And he had had some things. He had messaged me about wanting to do a day and then I told him I doubled my rates then he was like, okay. Let’s hold off. I need to be like smarter about how I use you. Mhmm. But now I have to hurt.

But, like, we were still in contact, but, like, he hasn’t that’s work that I didn’t get because of that.

Gotcha.

And I think I’m struggling with that because well, I mean, just post holidays, like, I was sick for all of December. It didn’t work at all. Like, got. I’m very light on clients right now.

So I’m like, I’m I’m in this weird middle ground, like, the middle ground of raising your prices where I’m like, I know my current prices, like, it’s so easy for me to sell it. Mhmm. But then raising it, I’m like, I don’t wanna raise it and then not be able to get any work. Yes.

Yes.

And I think I’m like in this.

I don’t wanna be in the scarcity mindset, but I’m also like, trying to find that balance because I had another sales call yesterday too where I know I could have sold my old rate, but I pitched the new rate And he was like, he wouldn’t say no, but it, like, gave him more pause. And, like, he has to think about it now. You know? Yes. Yes.

I don’t know.

I don’t know what my question is exactly, but just like this kind of weird in between, like, trying to figure out what the right Mhmm.

Rate is or if you have any, like, thoughts on how to navigate that.

Yeah. For sure. And I’d love to hear, Nolan Randall sorts too. So two key things came up for me.

First of all, just because something is easy, it does not mean it’s not valuable. And I think that’s the trap we all fall into. But like, oh, but it, like, takes me like no time or no effort. Like, I can’t charge.

I can’t charge, you know, five thousand dollars for that when it’s like a, you know, one thousand dollar effort.

The fact that it’s easy often just means you’re very good at that thing, and therefore the quality that the client is going to receive is actually going to be worth a lot more than what you’re charging for at the moment. So that’s maybe a mindset thing to think about. The second thing is that I wonder if you’re now in the situation, that I touched on very briefly towards the start of the workshop where you will reach a ceiling with a certain type of offer and a certain type of client. So is it that I have no doubt at all that your service is worth what you’re charging for it now.

My question is whether you’re pitching it to the wrong people, and I don’t know whether that resonates I think that was my concern originally when I posted in clap in Slack.

That was my original concern, was that, like, I feel fine charging those rates. Like, I I feel confident and what I’m delivering. I’m just not confident in the client the types of clients that are contacting me right now. And because I haven’t done any authority building, like, I’m not I only have access to a certain level of client. Yes.

So I think that’s that was my concern.

So now I’m wondering, I’m like, do I backtrack? Like, what do I do? You know, like wait until I’ve yeah. I guess that’s my that’s a good point. I think that’s the thing that’s happening right now.

Yes. I would also suggest life just on a purely practical level, you know, giving old mate who told you to raise your rates and then was like, oh, I need to think more about how the, you know, strategically, that’s how to use your time now. Getting back in touch with him, and you could even offer to help him plan that out, like, to get because I think once you get that first day rate sold at that price. Like, it’s gonna feel amazing. And you’re gonna have the proof that you can sell it. You’re also gonna have, I guess, proof of what someone gets out of that experience that price. And I think then that is almost like the window into reaching more clients at that level.

So that that’s a very practical tip, but, not only the model. Is there anything else that came up for you guys?

Well, Julian, this that sounds like this client would be an excellent, case study.

Yeah. Definitely.

In the process of doing the case study, you’d be reminding this client how much value you gave them.

Right.

And so that would be kind of a you know, soft sell reminding, like, what is missing from his work at this moment.

Yeah.

Right? So I don’t know. That might if if that’s something you like to use for, social proof.

Definitely. Yeah. The only reason I’ve held off on study for his clients was we’re still doing ongoing work together, and he’s, like, about to launch a whole another thing. So I’ve just been kinda waiting.

Until the right moment for that just because there are like more things happening.

And I do think, like, he’ll still he’s definitely still, like, not gonna not work with me anymore. It’s just like it kind of, you know, there’s a little bit of a shakeup, but I will say I so I’ve only He’s the only person I told the other other my other clients, like, they kind of come and go. But, I I had two sales calls this week, The first one was a client that, like, I even told them upfront that I was like, I don’t think this is a good fit, but they still really wanted to talk. So I was like, okay.

I’ll talk to you. Still thought it wasn’t a good fit, but, like, he was willing to pay he was, like, budget not an issue I told him the day rate, told him my project rates. He was, like, not a problem, but I still turned it down. So I guess I did technically, like, sell it without selling it, or I had someone who would be willing to sell it.

So I guess I kinda forgot about that until now.

But so I was just focusing on the ones I was trying to sell them and couldn’t, but Yep.

So, yeah, I got through some it’s just a weird what’s that?

Sorry. No. You go.

It’s just, yeah, it’s just a weird I’m in a weird in between place right now. Because my my project rates aren’t published, so I can I raise them all the time just on the sales? Like, I kinda just determine, you know, we’ll raise them. I don’t have to tell anyone or announce it. This is the first time I’ve done it where it’s like a set price that’s increasing.

Yes.

Two two quick things. First of all, I just I think it’s awesome. I think it’s so, so, so, so good that you still turned away that client, even though they would have been willing to pay the rate.

It’s never worth working with a bad fit client, even if you get the money, and you know that, but that’s just so good.

And secondly, I feel like maybe, like, a helpful way to think about what’s changed for the client who told you to raise your rates and is now sort of has not booked in another day at that rate since you raised it is it’s almost like you’ve changed the perception of yourself in his eyes. So you’ve gone from, like, you know, to use the cheese cabinet analogy again. I obviously love cheese. You’ve gone from like the super delicious like five dollar block that like didn’t just buy without thinking and like, oh my god, like, this is such a steal to, like, being the twelve dollar wheel of brie that, you know, you know, is delicious.

But like you now have to think a bit more carefully about when you’re going to invest in and and eat eat that, I guess, because it’s not as disposable.

So that’s not a bad thing, right, to increase your value and to own that is a good thing, but it has changed, I think, his perception of, like, booking and using you. So I’d definitely reach back out to him and just offer to be like, hey, like, I know you’ve got this new launch, whatever coming up, and I know that you do wanna together again, but you wanna be more strategic about how you use me since the investments increased. Like, did you wanna talk about that? Did you wanna hop on a thirty minute call and we can talk about that?

Yeah. That’s a really good that’s a really good suggestion. I’ll definitely do that.

Awesome. And let us know how it goes. I feel like sometimes the loops don’t get closed in and I’m like, oh, no. I wanna know. So please. Hello.

Yeah. Yeah. And know that was that did feel like like saying no to that other client, especially. So I I feel like I have it taken on projects before kind of with what you mentioned where it’s like, I can figure it out, but then being really it’s not so much that I don’t think I could figure it out.

It’s more just that I’ve taken on projects in the past when I’m like, I don’t have any other clients, and I know I can figure it out, but it stresses me out so much and I spend way too much time on it. And that’s the part I didn’t wanna do. I was like, I’m just not willing to be really stressed about a project even though I would figure it out because I will spend way too much time on it. You know?

Yes.

And then it’s But that’s not like the wind is like, I don’t wanna do that anymore.

I’m just not gonna take on. I’m gonna I’m gonna, like, believe that there are other things that I’m just making space for them.

So Yes.

Amazing.

Yeah.

Hey, Jill. Could you talk Jill, could you talk about your VIP day rate just for a minute or two?

Yeah. I’m actually teaching a four part in February done with you VIP day course for copy hackers. So you’ll see that coming up soon.

But, yeah, if you have is there did you have a certain question about it?

No. I again, I’m relatively new to the industry.

So I’m just wondering, like, what the general Oh, like, what it is?

Is that what you said? Just wondering what it is?

Yeah.

Oh, it’s just, it’s like a so I have my project there’s project rates that takes me, you know, six to eight weeks for a full website project. And then the my only kind of smaller offering is or someone can book me for a full day. So it’s like a full seven hours just dedicated to their project, that I have regularly. So they can kinda get on my calendar more quickly.

Understood.

Yeah.

So it’s kind of like an intensive session.

But this is basically on website copy or like, what is one of the variety of things will fall into that mix?

A variety of things. Some people do them for just one thing. I often do it for website.

Copy, but I’ll do it for smaller, like smaller projects that aren’t big enough for me to quote for. A lot of times, these plans have already worked with. So I already done all their research, and then they want something small that, like, isn’t worth my time to quote or plan. So I’ll just put it into a day or a half day.

I see. Thanks. Yeah.

Awesome. And just to maybe close a loop, julie, and so I feel like sorry, Anna. I feel like the you might be hitting up against a practical problem rather than a mindset problem because you’ve done the thing. You’ve raised the rate.

You’ve pitched it. Like, you’ve turned someone down even. So I think your mindset is correct. It’s just, yeah, you might maybe in a situation where you need to up level the people that you’re talking to in terms of prospects.

But I’d say, like, Old mate is definitely a shoe, and he just needs a nudge that was some Australian old nature shooting.

I’ll tell him that. I’ll tell him. Yeah.

So to to translate that, that means I think that that client is definitely gonna book with you. He just needs, yeah, a gentle knowledge to make that happen.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you for the yeah. Thank you for the suggestions.

No worries. Any final things from anyone?

No. Thanks for sharing. This was super helpful. Awesome. Yeah.

I appreciate you talking to you guys.

I really appreciate it. Definitely.

Yeah. Fine nice to see you all. This is great. Yeah, let’s keep chatting in slack, feel free to pin me with questions anytime. And, yeah, please let us know what happens, Dylan. I feel like the three of us will be here for other suggestions and also just keen to keen to follow the journey.

Cool. Thank you so much.

Alright, guys. Talk to you soon.

Worksheet

Thinking Bigger: Setting Bigger Goals for Your Business

Thinking Big

Transcript

We can jump straight in and get going this morning.
As you know, today’s session is designed to get you guys to think bigger when it comes to setting and getting goals for your business. And as you hopefully also know, if you’ve seen my comment in Slack, the session today, I’m gonna run a little bit differently. We’re just going to jump straight on in and actually do the thing. Because I’ve been reflecting on my previous sessions, and I feel like they haven’t quite been landing, as much as I wanted to.
So no theory. Not showing you how to do something later, we’re gonna go straight ahead and do the thing right now. So if you haven’t already, could you please open your worksheet for this session and have it either on your screen or on your desktop, whatever works for you. No shame if you’re old school paper.
I am often that person too.
Now if you go straight to, the top of the second page, so, the page with the first set of prompts and things for you, you’ll see that right up top, the first thing that is there is a fill in the blank style prompt, which says and sorry my face will be looking sideways because I will be also looking at my, computer with the non working sound. It says if insert your biz biggest robot or limitation was no issue, I had insert action and or outcome.
So obviously I’d like you to fill this in.
In terms of your biggest roadblock or limitation, that may be something that’s quite global in your business, So for example, something like time or capacity, or it could be something that’s quite specific to the business that you’re trying to work towards and trying to build here in CSP. So for example, if you are someone who is trying to shift from making the majority of your revenue via one to one client services to someone who makes majority of their revenue through selling, online programs or products, then it might be that your current limitation is you have a slow list growth.
So think what that is for you. I imagine for most people, it will be quite easy to identify that key challenge. It’s that thing that you keep coming up against.
And you may notice it in different patterns. It might have been the same thing for the last, you know, six months, twelve months, two years.
So identify that one, is anyone having trouble pinpointing that challenge?
Nope.
Abby’s a strong no. I love it.
Okay. Cool. And then the second part of that prompt, I would love you to put in, like, something quite wild, so don’t place any value judgments on what this sort of big action or outcome would be. But just think, like, in this hypothetical scenario, if that challenge didn’t exist, if it wasn’t there, What would you actually do then? What would you have in your business?
I’ll give you a minute to think that one through because I often find that this can be the piece of the puzzle, but can take a little bit longer to sort of pinpoint.
But again, you know, don’t filter it, don’t judge it based on all. That’s not really possible. We’re just talking hypotheticals here. So again, if that biggest roadblock was not there in your business, what would you then achieve? What would you do What would be the outcome?
Okay. Has everybody got something in that first box? Yeah, Abby.
Jessica Nicole Naomi, Caroline. Caroline, how are you guys going? Thumbs up from Naomi?
Jessica. How are you going there?
Abbie you’re supposed to be on Vauxer answering my question because I was like, I don’t wanna present to the whole group, but I will.
You don’t have to share if you don’t want to.
Well, no.
No.
No. It’s fine. It’s more because I need the help.
I have a list to things that I feel like could be my biggest roadblock.
So I think Abby, you talk to me every day. Well, what’s what’s yours? What do you think mine is?
I know what mine is. Mine is.
I know what yours is. I think I know it’s cool.
Yeah. Not raising not raising my rates. I don’t know what your biggest roadblock is though.
I think Thank you.
Okay.
I think one of them is is self doubt because you think you’ll wanna do something and then half, I think you’ll be like, oh, maybe I should be doing this. Maybe I, like, maybe I should have gone down this route and you’ll wanna change. So I think it’s indecisiveness, but I think it comes from self doubt.
Yeah.
I agree with you. That’s what I had. Fear of failing the self doubt thing. Okay. Thank you. That helps.
Awesome. Love this.
So good. K. Is that clarified the second part of that, thing for you, Jessica? Awesome.
And Caroline, how are you tracking there? You can pop something in the chat if you don’t wanna show your noggin secrets.
Yeah. I think Caroline I don’t know if you had access, but I think she might be with her family. In a car. So she said she may not be able to interact so that yeah.
I don’t know if you can see that or not, but No.
Sorry. Because I left, I thought maybe if I, Oh, there she is.
Yep.
Yeah. If my fear of something like fraud or self doubt was no issue, I’ve had my business change and charge a lot more. Okay. Cool. Awesome Caroline. And, hey, Katie, I see you’ve just joined us just to catch up. We’re just working our way through that first prompt in the worksheet.
It should be pretty self explanatory.
So you’re just popping in there what your biggest current roadblock in your business is the thing that keeps getting in the way of you hitting your goals, and then also what you would do or achieve in your business if that thing was no issue. And again, we’re just thinking hypotheticals here. So we’re just trying to broaden that perspective by knocking out that big challenge that always gets caught up and trapped.
And no worries that you were late. I also my audio didn’t work, so I’m a few minutes like getting started too. So not a problem.
Okay. Alright. We’re gonna roll through to the next, section of the worksheet pretty quickly, because the speed is actually part of this exercise.
So if you just, look beneath, where you’ve just put that first statement, you’ll see there is a table with ten different slots that says ways to bridge the gap from here to there. Now, again, I just want you to think about this hypothetically. So, any way that you could actually problem solve, and you could do the thing that you’ve just written down, Even if it, you know, that, like, not, like, that’s not gonna work for me, I want you to avoid placing any judgments on these ideas. If it would theoretically get you from a to b, I want it In that box, and the aim of the game here, success for this talk looks like filling in as many possibilities of that box as you can, even if some, ludicrous ideas or things that would not work for you.
So as an example, if I was doing this exercise right now, my biggest challenge with two very young kids’ capacity, and the thing that I would do if that was no issue would be selling to live with three half day rates a week. Every week because that would bring me about, I think, four hundred k, just from that one, offer every year.
And ways that I could possibly bridge that gap.
For example, I could deliver those day rates at night, when I know my husband’s here and he can be point person for the kids, I could hire a subcontractor.
I could look at some sort of agency model. I could build some sort of AI that could write like me to speed things up. So I’m just spitballing ideas, and as you can see, they’re sort of all, really, they’re very possible, and I’m not feeling during in terms of how suitable they might be for me. So I’ll give you guys five minutes to fill in as many of those ten slots as you can. If you have any questions or you get stuck, just give me a yell.
Oh, sorry, Carla. I just saw your question. Suggestions on how to bridge the gap when the issue is self doubt.
Yeah. Good question.
So I think when we’re looking at what your design outcome is Caroline. You promote your business and charge a lot more.
So we’re looking at ways to bridge the gap from what you’re doing in your business now to what that outcome is that you would actually do. So, for example, we’re just saying that if that self doubt wasn’t there, So if that wasn’t there, what kind of things would you do? Can you imagine pitching yourself for, various in person events to to speak on stage? Could you imagine, just setting your rates a lot higher and going after those clients who you know that could actually afford that investment?
Does that make sense? So we’re problem solving from how you could get from where you are now to where you identify that you would like to be in that first goal. And again, we’re just assuming that that self doubt isn’t an issue. Okay. Cool.
Alright, guys.
We’ll leave it there. How many possible ways to get from a to b did people get? Feel free to yell out or to just pop a number in the chat.
Eleven.
Oh, who’s that eleven then? Me over at Seadema. I love it. What about you, Naomi? How’d you go?
About seven.
That’s awesome, Katie?
I had trouble deciding which problem was my biggest problem. So I have eight solutions each, but I was wondering if you had any tips on, like, which to focus on.
Mhmm. Yep. Do you wanna talk us through the options that you have for what the biggest problem is at the moment?
Yeah. So when I just brained down to like, okay, problems, it was like, capacity, audience size, overwhelmed, like, not knowing where to go next, and not feeling really confident that I have, like, like, impressive client results to point people to that are recent.
So the three that I wrote about were capacity, audience size, and results, and I have, like, six to eight solutions for each of those, but it’s kind of like a meta problem, but I’m like not knowing which problem is the biggest one is, like, part of one of, like, an additional problem.
Probably part of the overwhelm, I guess. Yeah.
So I guess when you think about those three separate things that you did identify and, put possible ideas down for, Which feels like the one that you’re really bugging your head up against the most?
Or the one that’s really stifling you or stopping you from, like, making changes in the growth that you want to?
Well, I I the three that I wrote were capacity, audience size, and no results, but I feel like the overwhelm is the one that’s really stopping me because I keep starting different projects and getting them to, like, sixty percent and then failing on them to go work on a different thing because I can’t decide which which is gonna be the the one that makes the most difference.
Okay. Yep. So then it sounds like overwhelm might actually be the biggest challenge, and that perhaps these other three things are subsets, all of that. Challenge because if you’re not following through on a on a, you know, project or a lead gen system, for example, the way through, then that could be impacting.
You know, the list size and those kinds of things. Does that sound right? Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So sorry. It sound like the one that you didn’t put.
I do four might be the one that you need to work on.
So feel free to, take a few minutes and then something sound for that. Yeah.
Well, I think I think too, the solutions for the overwhelm, like, the ones the solutions that I wrote could also help with the overwhelm one, two.
Yep. And I just wanna check with, with overwhelm as the key challenge, does that also help you articulate a really clear, like outcome or action that you would take, if that was no issue, if the overwhelm wasn’t.
Part of the equation at the moment?
I mean, I feel like if it’s like if overwhelm was no issue, then I would know which steps to take and which projects to tackle in which order.
Mhmm.
Yep. Do you have, I guess, a vision of what that would actually look like in your business? So, like, something that’s a bit further down the lines that if you doing that. If you had real clarity on, you know, everyone wasn’t there, so you knew what you were focusing on next, you’d finish those tasks, you’d be building something like where is that getting you? What’s that?
Further down the line, gold will collect.
It looks like being able to delegate because things are organized enough to bring another person in and being able to invest in support because I know what the task is, and I know what the desired outcome is. And then also having the, like, the systems that I’m building actually make it to a hundred percent, and then they start working for me.
Yes. Cool. Okay. So I feel like those are probably the more useful outcome to think about because they are obviously definitely a result of that feeling and have been able to prioritize tasks, but then more concrete things to be able to work towards. So been able to you know, delegate, automate, eliminate might be something like that or being able to outsource appropriately so that you have the space to do the court work.
There might be a goal somewhere in there that feels like it gets home for you, obviously use your own words.
Thank you, No worries.
Jessica, how’d you go with the table and the list of possible problem solving ideas?
Oh, yeah. I got about seven as well.
So Awesome.
That is amazing. And Caroline, I know you’re in the car, so feel free to just pop something in the chat if you would like. A number of how many you got to, and I’ll just keep an eye on that for you.
Seats. Amazing. That’s so good, guys. That is awesome.
So what you’ve just done is you have taken a hypothetical lens to, you know, what if, like, what could I do in my business if this thing wasn’t actually an issue. And when we approach goal setting from this angle, what it does, it allows you to identify what you actually want without those limiting beliefs getting in the way. Because you’re not doing the thing that we all do where you say, oh, yeah, but that wouldn’t work me because, or Oh, yeah, but that’s like a goal for, like, three years from now. So what you actually have in that table or in that list of possible ways to get from where you are now to where you’ve identified you would like to be, are possible routes to take.
Now some of those I’m sure will be absolutely terrible ideas for you and your business and how you like to work, and that’s totally okay. So if there are any in that list where you look at and you’re like, like that, theoretically could work, but I know that that’s just not ever gonna work in practice for me. Feel free to cross those out.
What I would love you to do is identify one of those that feels like the best fit. And it’s really important that when I say feels like the best fit, that doesn’t mean that you’re gonna look at it and not feel any discomfort because growth requires discomfort and there is a natural tension between what you want and what you need to do to get it. So, again, just reiterating that the best fit idea in your list there probably isn’t gonna be something that you feel one hundred percent confident with, but I’m just asking you to identify the one that feels like it fits you and how you work and your business and what you wanna build the best. So I’ll give you a minute or two to do that, and if you have any questions, oh, I don’t know what the balloons are going on.
Alright. And there we go.
Sorry. I never zoom on my phone, so here we are learning new things by accident.
Okay. Questions as you’re identifying that one, let me know. And once you have identified the best fit one, if you could just pop it in the chat, that would be awesome.
Bedtime, Abby?
Yeah.
It’s like five seven, but I’m so sleepy for some reason.
But it’s tiredness, not boredom. I promise. Sorry. It’s enjoying it.
It’s often me because I’m in Australia, like, on Paul’s father group programs and masterminds I’ve been part of. It’s often a ridiculous time for me, so I know that I know the feeling.
Naomi limit the number of clients to five and raise them in a monthly investment to three k. Awesome. This culture. I’m try I’m trying to reverse engineer what your, key challenges or limitations must be. And it’s quite interesting to see this. Awesome.
Katie, book a one to one coaching session to get ideas out of my head and verbally process what I’m stuck on. Amazing.
Hey, guys. These are really awesome. These are really clear and concise and totally achievable.
This is so great.
Are you going, Jessica? Do you need some help?
Maybe.
It’s the self doubt thing, which that if I was able to do I think that’s where I’m I’m I focus more on how to overcome the self doubt get to the thing on the other side of that. But I think the thing on the other side of that, the outcome I’d like is two seasonal sale campaigns a month around ten thousand dollars with clients that I like, and that I could use for further you know, books and promotion and things like that.
Awesome.
Does that seem in alignment though?
Yeah. Totally. Because I think your self doubt wasn’t an issue, then that’s probably what you’d be doing because you wouldn’t be scared about pitching those people or lending those projects.
Okay. Or to the green results. Okay. And, yeah, in in Fabi, I mean, it’s green too.
No. Yeah. Your because you’re self doubt, I think this comes from feeling like you don’t have the experience that you want to have. So I I feel like as soon as you start getting leads and doing projects, your confidence is just gonna go up and you’re not gonna put up with that self doubt, like, be because yeah.
I think I have the same a similar thing to Katie where it’s been so long since I’ve done seasonal sales.
It just feels like I’m too far away from it. So, yeah, I get yeah. Okay. Thank you.
Mhmm. And I think one of the, Cool, but also annoying things about self doubt is that there’s that little gap you have to bridge often in that you have to do the same. To solve the doubt.
It’s a catch twenty two and it sucks, but really it is the best way to get through it.
Cool. So with that in mind, Jessica, maybe I don’t know if you need to maybe write down some different, possibilities or different ways there, or we could you identify those now? What what would work best for you?
I’m quick just typing in if I can look to seasonal sale campaigns a month at ten k each.
Mhmm. Yep.
That would be kind of thing.
Okay. Awesome.
Amazing.
And again, Carla, I know you’re driving, so I won’t order in the car. So I won’t invest you, but if you do wanna share, feel free.
Okay. Guys, this is so good. So as you’ll see, the next box, which I deliberately left quite, vague in terms of heading, because, I mean, I feel like you already knew this, but I didn’t wanna make it super clear. I’m now going to ask you to actually take this hypothetical idea and it concrete and break it out into steps.
Because, of course, I think this is also where we can get lost when we are trying to make movement towards our big goals is that we have, you know, the end goal in mind, but we don’t know where to start. We don’t know what to do for the second, third, fourth, or fifth to do that thing.
So these things that you have written in the chat here, if you’re looking to actually do that, like what are the steps to actually make that a reality? What do you have to do? And I’d say this could be depending on how your brain works, a bit of a messy process in terms of actually writing things down and ordering them. So don’t worry too much if put something down and then realize, oh, that’s actually like step number four.
You know, this is your worksheet or your space wherever you’re working in. So you can edit. You can doodle. You can move things around.
It can it can be messy.
The important thing is to get it out on paper.
And I know that can also be the part where things can feel tricky and sticky and some of those mindset gremlins can come up. So please, as you are going through this, let me know what’s happening. Let me know where you’re getting stuck, whether it is a practical thing or a mindset thing, and I would love to coach you through it.
Can I ask Christie, like, I feel I feel like maybe I jumped ahead a step? Like, the thing that I put in the chat was the concrete step that I could take. So am I supposed to look like the goal is know what to do when I’m gonna do it and what that thing entails.
Mhmm.
So now it steps to get there.
Yes. Actually, yeah. You’re right. Sorry. Yes. So your this is this is great first step I feel because you can do that theoretically today.
Right? You could. Yeah. Book a one to one session with someone. And then I guess, you know, after that and after you have that information on paper, then what happens next?
Is it then are you maybe looking to hire someone to set up anything that has been identified as being able to be systematized or automated, is it perhaps interviewing VAs or OBMs, like, what are the steps in there that you see reaching to that goal? And thank you for bringing it up because, yes, you’re totally right. That’s a one step thing that you’ve got in the chat.
So What I’m identifying is the thing that I want that my big problem is stopping me from happening.
That’s right. So I think you’ve already identified that, and now you’re talking about, so if there’s a way to solve that problem. So perhaps it’s perhaps you need to go back to the section before this one and think about, like, okay, like, one way to solve that problem would be to outsource everything or to hire a system specialist.
Or it might be to, like, hire someone else. So so I think, yeah, maybe it’s about going back to that table before and looking at those because I think, yes, what you have here looks like the first step for you to get in clarity.
Into how things are sitting and where you can make them easier and less overwhelming and more streamlined. Does that sound right?
Yep. Yeah. It’s all just kind of clicked into place while you were talking. It’s okay. Thank you. Okay.
Awesome.
Alright. Is anyone stuck either on the practical step or is anyone feeling the kind of resistance that makes them think they won’t actually follow through on the things that are in front of them?
So I’m struggling with a lot of my clients are I I have very personal relationships with them because I work in a very small ecosystem.
And so some of them I started I only really started working on full time, like last May.
And most of my clients are either friends of friends or friends of old colleagues, or there’s like no more than like two degrees of two, three degrees of separation between me and most of the people in my ecosystem, which is good, but I not sure how easy it’ll be for me to either fire clients that are not working out or raise rates that are way below what I’m charging now because these are people that I’m gonna see in person pretty often, and I have to make Sure.
Got you. That can be tricky definitely because you’ve got dual relationships there, client, and also some sort of social relationship.
Would, raising the price of your services, would that, effectively fire some clients for you, like are some of your forfeit clients who won’t be able to afford this new price.
Well, some of it is just like, it’s a little bit of work here and there. But it’s not really worth doing the work because it’s just taking away time, every email, every call. It’s just is just draining my time. So I’m wondering also if it’s if it’s worth it at all, if it’s just a few hours a week, I, I, I’m not sure. I’m not sure if they would be, if they would be scared away.
Or they would think, it’s probably not worth it. We’ll just do it in house.
Mhmm.
Yep. Okay. I was only asking because somewhat sometimes that can be easy way out. When you outgrow a client, and then you raise your rates, it can be you can know sometimes. Like that person, then we’re gonna say yes, this is actually my problem for me. I think in the case where it sounds like you’re saying that you may or may not, but you definitely have some clients in mind who feel like they’re not a good it for where you actually want to take and grow your business.
Remember that the reasons that you have and you know and you’re telling yourself for wanting to get rid of them, you don’t have to pass those on to those clients. There are other ways to let them know about the decision. So, it could be, again, thinking that you obviously wanna try and preserve some of the relationship because you’re probably gonna bump into them socially and as things so intermingled for you, simply telling them, hey, the way I’m doing business is changing.
Here’s what’s happening, and I know that historically haven’t worked together this way. And I will be really sad to see you go, but, you know, this is what’s next for me. So there can be a way of, like, just letting them know quite kindly, quite politely without sort of going into the details of perhaps why they themselves are not a fit, and therefore making it personal.
Will it be uncomfortable, probably? I think a lot of conversations that we have in business are, but think you don’t want to sacrifice your business success, you know, for the sake of potentially a few awkward conversations.
So Yeah. I’m actually saying it probably will be uncomfortable, but I think you’re absolutely right. If it’s bits and pieces work, if it’s clients that really don’t fit the vision you have for where your business is going, and they don’t support that, either in terms of money or the work that you’re wanting to do, then it is time to let go of them and time to make space for those who do. Anything else? On Naomi, do you wanna talk about that a bit more?
Does it make sense to get rid to let them go before I take on new clients or just buy new clients and then let them go.
Mhmm.
I feel like it always makes sense to let go of some of them before in order to make space.
Even though that’s scary, and I know, you know, financially as well, it can be daunting to see blank space in your calendar.
But I think most of us in this room can probably attest to the fact that if you hang on to clients.
It’s if you don’t create space or ideal clients to come into, then it sort of drags on and on and on, and, you know, you’ll be six months down the track before you actually make the change. So lightify under your own bum, I would say, by getting rid of these clients making space, for people who actually are a good fit. And reach out in slack when you’re doing it too if you want to because I think sometimes even just having, like, the support of people who’ve been there, who’ve done it before while you’re actually doing the scary thing can be really helpful, and can just make you make that move even when it is uncomfortable.
Amazing. Do you guys are legends?
Alright.
So we’ll move on to the last, piece of the worksheet, and then I think we’ll have a few minutes too to just open up discussion on whatever you’d like. But you’ll see the last thing there is a table, with good space for good, better, best goals.
So I think chances are you probably already identified your best goal in that initial statement that we did at the top of the worksheet.
It may not be, but I think nine times out of ten, that’s probably your ideal outcome.
So thinking through then how to set other goals so that this isn’t a next size that is so black and white and you either hit that goal or you fail miserably, what are good and better goals? So a good goal is basically your baseline level of success, which might look quite different to your best goal, but is still absolutely a really positive shift and a positive growth for your business in this direction that you’re moving in.
A better goal is typically somewhere between the good and the best goals. So it’s something that you can feel really chucked about, you know, this this move and this strategy has been more than successful, even though it might not have keep the heights of your, like, ideal, like, best world scenario outcome.
And the reason that these are important is that Again, it gets you out of that black and white thinking where sometimes we normally set big goals for our business and we’re working towards them. If we get point, we realized they’re not gonna happen to the extent in which we were setting out to achieve. We can get disheartened and we can give up. If we have these goals that allow us a little bit more flex, and allow us to actually benchmark our success at different levels. It is often more motivating and just gives us, something better to reach towards And also, I find when you do hit the good goal, you can often get a boost of motivation to keep reaching out for that better and then that best goal too.
Ideally, of course, these goals should be measurable in some way.
So even if they are a feeling goal, which is totally okay, by the way, if one of the goals is that you feel less overwhelmed.
Just think about what that actually looks like and how that could actually be measured. So for example, that would be, you know, it means that I get to switch my laptop off at five thirty PM every day and not worry about you know, what I’ve got on the next morning. It could be something like that. So something that you can actually measure as opposed to just, like, feel less stress because I think without the specificity there, it’s gonna be a very hard goal for you to actually reflect on and work out. Yep. That’s what’s happened or no. I’m not quite there yet.
Katie.
Well, hey, maybe that is one of your goals though.
Maybe sure to Alice, who knows? But I know there’s works.
Sometimes I feel like you’re working fully hours and then sometimes Fifty months the opposite.
It’s the day care pickup. Is it three thirty? So, like, I could happily work till seven, but I just don’t there’s no space.
Yes. Well, I feel that very much too.
Katie, I know. It’s a season. I keep telling myself that. I’m like, there will eventually be more time in our days where little people don’t need us to do all the things.
Yeah. I feel like I don’t know about you, but I do feel one good side effect of motherboards is that my efficiency rates have gone through the roof. It’s like when I have time that I can use, I use that time.
I’m on the opposite side. Mine is gone. Yeah. I kinda wish I had that limitation right now.
I have too much time. So Either way, you’re gonna have a problem. It’s either you don’t have enough or you have too much and you gotta figure it out. It’s kinda like money.
You either have too much or too little. And no matter what you’re pun penalized for one of them. So yeah. I didn’t join the little kid.
I take my little kid back anytime.
Back to the five year old, I’d take her again. She was fine.
Twenty one is fine, but That’s such good perspective, Jessica.
Thank you for sharing.
You’re welcome. Enjoy them while they’re little. Yeah.
Hey, guys. Anyone struggling with the good, better, best goals? Anyone unsure on how or when to try and measure their progress against them?
I feel like you’re also so so compliant this session. It makes me a bit nervous that maybe haven’t set goals in a big enough.
So I remember this should feel uncomfortable. Like, it should feel exciting, but it should also feel uncomfortable as you’re reaching for these things because growth Just by definition does require discomfort. And as I mentioned earlier, there will be that tension whether it’s now when you’re actually doing the thing between what you want and what you need to do to get it. I really would love for you at those points in the process to reach out in Slack and say, hey, this is what’s coming up for me.
How do I deal or, like, can you just normalize this? Whatever whatever you need because, you know, you’re in CSP for a reason. I think you’re all ready to do big bold bad ass things in your business, but you’re also human. So I think you’re going to fault it in that journey from time to time as we all do.
So it’s normal, but reach out. I’m here. The other coaches are here, and we’re really just we want you guys to kick huge goals and do amazing things.
Alright. Pep talk over.
Any questions on any of this stuff or anything related to mindset business, copywriting.
Oh, that’s yeah.
Oh, you go.
Have a good one.
No. You don’t. You don’t.
Well, actually it was something Abby and I have discussed before, so I was just curious, Kirsty, what your thoughts were. So as I’m, you know, I So I don’t know if I have told you, but I used to run seasonal sales for over it’s ever been a lot of them, but it was a couple years ago when I was working for a company full time. And as I’m kind of thinking about this launching the package a signature offer of seasonal sale campaigns.
And I’m kind of struggling with the how to launch it, but then also, you know, Abby and I’ve heard Joe say either if you want case studies and stuff, do it for free or make the really high ticket price, you know. And so that’s kind of made me hesitate with putting it in a middle ground price range. So that’s why I said ten k because that’s a little bit bigger. But I don’t know. I’m just curious about your thoughts around any of that with launching this signature offer.
I haven’t had any people keep coming to me for email, which is great. I’m not complaining, but it’s not this. And I’m just kind of sitting there going, okay, practicing is a really important part of the positioning.
Well, do you have any recommendations or thoughts?
Yeah. Sure. I think, I mean, obviously Joe is a genius. I think probably what she says goes.
I think if ten K feels like it is that little bit uncomfortable, I think it’s probably the right price to set it up. I always find that if too comfortable with the price, then I feel like the price is too low. So I think that is the right price. I think it’s sent about how you position that and how you make sure the clients really see the value in that investment.
They see the ROI, and they have the desire for this amazing service.
So in terms of launching, do you have access to your ideal clients, like on an email list or similar, or will you be pitching people directly else he’s gonna go?
So as I’ve come back in about, I kinda let my business go dormant for a while. And the people on my business on my email list before were people who sought me out for, and funnels and all of that kind of stuff. So they were not e commerce and not, well, no, they were a couple e commerce, but, not not an alignment with this offer at all. So I’m basically starting again with a zero audience, so then that’s another thing that comes up on my list of need to build audience with this ideal, you know.
Yeah. So, no. I other than cold or warm pitching that kind of stuff, I don’t have a list with the ideal customer.
Okay. Cool. So, I mean, in that case, because you don’t have ready access to your ideal client, I would probably suggest offering to do one of this service for free or for a very low investment so that you can get the social proof. Because I think if you’re going to be doing outreach and you’re going to be warm pitching to people, it’s just going to increase the likelihood of getting a yes so much if you can say, hey, and I did this with this company in this business, and here are the results they got.
Because if you’re a relatively unknown person to your ideal client, you know, you really, I think, do need the proof and the value of what you do.
So I think and also, obviously, pitching people with the offer of something at a really low price because you’re wanting to use their their project as a case study or even for free, like, that is a much easier yes for a company. So that’s what I would do one hundred percent if I was in your shoes.
Great. Perfect. Thank you so much. My worries.
Abby.
Can I can I ask a follow-up question on behalf of Jesse?
Because Jessica, like, because you do have social proof and, like, you are gonna get that testimonial from Joe. Like, you have testimonials.
Do you really need to do? Like, do really two on free? Cause I know that Jessica, like, one needs the leads now and needs to get these projects in, like, what when when is social proof enough?
Like, does That’s a question.
Right? I don’t have social proof on this particular offer, the way it is. I could reach out to the former client and see how much permission I could get to share what I did for them.
Their marketers I bet Christina knows a couple of them, and I’m not a hundred percent certain they will let me or what. But I didn’t sign anything, but yeah, Yeah.
Does it have to be, like, for your specific offer? Or can it I mean, your offer is comprised of, like, copywriting and strategy, and you have testimonials that demonstrate you do strategy and copywriting very well.
I don’t know. I just don’t want because you said your goal is to booked to seasonal cell campaigns at ten k each, and doing one for free isn’t that gonna, like, slow that down? And I’m not, like, trying to argue with your advice see. I’m just more like because I know I know that Jessica wants, like, pay projects. So I’m just kind of, I don’t know.
I I would worry.
I I don’t know exactly what company is you’re working for. But if I’m thinking of hiring somebody who wants to do something for free, my thinking might go to why are they free? Like, does that mean they’re not worth the value?
Like, that would almost be a red flag in my mind, depend like, coming from more of an established company, Like, I I wanna pay somebody the fair rate, especially if it’s not my money. It’s the company’s money. Like, and I’m just, like, hiring a vendor. Like, For me, that would be a red flag. So, like, maybe they’re maybe they’re bad at what they do. That’s why they’re not charging what they’re worth.
Would agree with that Naomi. I think my red flag would go off as well. If I think when Kirsty said that when I’ve heard Joe say it, the one thought I did have his I do have a couple of contacts in my network who I’ve done work for, not in the seasonal sale capacity.
That I could see if I framed it under the guise of, I’d really love to use this in case studies, my future book, And, so obviously I wanna get you results and I’d like it to be mutually beneficial.
I feel like they might be a little more open and less fewer red flags going off in that, but but it’s also based off the fact that I have a relationship with them. But I see your point because I would say the same exact thing, especially if it were a cold itch or something like that. Yeah.
Katie just put in the chat what about doing it for ten k, adding a guarantee?
I think that’s a good idea. Like, literally, like, our homoze style guarantee, like, all your money back if it doesn’t perform.
Okay. Yeah. That’s a great idea because I think with all these things, what you’re trying to do is remove risk for the person who’s going to say yes to the project. Right?
One way to do that is to say, hey, there’s no risk for you because I’m gonna do it all for free and I’m gonna get e awesome results, but you’re part of the agreement, and I’m gonna hold you to this is that I wanna use this as a case study. So I need that from which I think is different offering to do something for free without you getting anything back. To me, that’s a red flag. If someone’s like, I just wanna offer to do it for free.
I just wanna go to some expertise. It’s like, no, thank you. But if you’re, like, really clear about why, what the exchange is, because you’re still getting something really valuable out of it, But, also, I love this idea of a guarantee, Katie, because that does the same thing effectively. You can say, here’s my rate.
But because it will be the first time I’m doing this precise service, then here’s here’s how we can go about the financial exchange, because I think that also just facilitates that. Yes. And what you really need is someone to say yes to this new offering from you so that you have the proof and you have the confidence to sell this more easily down back and you can get to that two seasonal sale campaigns every month as quick as possible.
In terms of the software, if you do have, I think when you are trying to prove a beta offer, which it sounds like this new service is because you haven’t actually rolled it out yet as, you know, as one complete package.
There are definitely bits of social proof that you can use like Abby’s talking about, so anything that proves your knowledge, your expertise, what you’ll like to work with as a service provider, all of that’s really relevant. Also, anything that proves, that you know your shit when it comes to seasonal sales campaigns. So if you could get something like that from Joe, for example, or from a previous client, anything of that will be helpful.
It’s about how you bring that proof together to build a picture that again removes or reduces risk for the person that you’re putting that service in front of.
Does that help? Wait.
Yeah. It does.
Didn’t you do this in house?
I I did do it in house, but I don’t I don’t know if so not in this offer. When it’s a really different offer, it is very much a different offer.
I did do a seasonal sale, but they were a company where it was like, a lot of last minute or, there’s a lot more components to my seasonal sale campaign than there was back then when I was literally just optimizing a sales page, writing the emails, writing the SMS, writing the ads.
There’s That was kind of the basic skeleton, and I’m I’m adding a lot to that.
I think you’re being too hard on yourself. I think you can talk to all of that work. I think this is I I think you’re being really nitpicky.
No. No. I’m I’m being sarcastic. Yes.
That that’s I’m a former teacher, maybe.
I mean, of course, I’m being nitpicky.
Like, I don’t I don’t really know what you mean by seasonal sales, to be perfectly honest with you because I’m in a very different industry, but like Yeah.
Years doesn’t do them very often.
No. No. But like it sounds like it sounds like you know a lot more about what you’re talking about. But you just don’t realize how much, you know, what you’re doing.
He does.
Thank you.
You can’t you can’t read the label from inside the jar.
Yeah.
I’m loving this guys. I mean, I feel like Abby obviously knows you really well in terms of you guys obviously connect quite a lot you know, outside of the the calls, the group calls that we have. So that’s awesome. And Naomi obviously knows your work as well. So, I mean, maybe what we’re dealing with here is actually just yourself doubt. And not a question of tactical approach.
Well, the good news is I broke down self doubt on the work sheet so we’ve selected correctly today. Hey. Hello.
Like, I’ve worked with people who, like, don’t know how to conjugate verbs properly, and they get promoted.
You know, like, I feel like your standards are just way too high.
Is there a lot of people who work in content and copy who just like don’t really know basic English, and make it by. So, like, you’re probably a lot further a lot than you think you are.
If I can conjugate a verb, we’re gonna set that as the standard from now on. Sounds good.
And Jessica, if you like, like, if you wanna plunk, like, a lot of the social proof that you do have in Slack, like, I would love to workshop that with you into something that could really help support this offer for you. Such a proof is like my my thing for copywriting. So feel free. Ping me. I’ll do it.
Alright. Thank you. I have sales page work to do, so that helps. Thank you.
Awesome.
And, Abby, I know you had a question. We can, if everyone’s happy to stay for two also, if you need to go, go. But if you wanna ask a question, Abby, then we can jump on in and then end things up.
Thank you. Yeah. I just wanted to ask your, be expected as someone who’s run a podcast.
Because part of mine is to, like, are gonna get on better high quality podcasts if you had any just like tips or insights into what you look for when someone sent you a pitch.
Yeah. Sure.
So interestingly, so the podcast that I run with Amy, business about Asuri, we always approach the guests that we wanna come on. We we don’t actually ever say yes to any pictures, but also we don’t get that many from people we know, which I think is the key thing, like, but you’d always random automated ones from people’s PR agencies, which we just delete straight away.
But I think having pitched a lot of podcasts as well, and like, I think when you do picture podcast, the key thing that you need to answer for the person you’re pitching is what does this person have?
For my audience? What do they have to offer my audience? Because their main goal is to get more listeners, get more subscribers, be a podcast that people talk about and share. So if you can give them an insight into how you’re gonna help them hit all their goals for their podcast, you’re more likely to be a yes for the pitch.
So, you know, I think as well, like, if you can avoid the quite templatized format of a typical podcast pitch, like, hi, name. I love your podcast, and they’re like talking about yourself. And then let me know something like that. Obviously, avoid that.
I think the more specific you can be, like, if you do actually listen to their podcasts, like, which episode have you loved? Like, which guest be loved, which conversation have you loved, and why?
Because I think even something like that from the beginning can show that you have to engage with the podcast, you haven’t just searched, you know, top copywriting podcasts, which I have.
Yeah. And one one follow-up question. So because the podcast I want to speak on offer course creators.
And I should I be concerned about stepping on their toes? Because a lot of them have offers evergreen offers or, like, courses to to serve their audience, and it’s they’ll be similar to my offer. So I guess, turn to y’all to start? Is that something that I should be concerned about, like, going in?
Or So I think that’s probably a call that they will each make.
As to whether they’re like, oh, is this person potentially gonna take business away from me, or are they gonna add to the conversation around this idea or this approach?
So I wouldn’t be worried about it if I was you. I think that’s only in their court to make that full.
And you could try, you know, finding that you’re pitching people who you are technically in competition with and you keep getting nose, you could even try mixing up the pitch, and you could even maybe acknowledge, like, hey, I know that you your business is built on a similar offer or something like that. I would love to talk have this conversation with you because, and you could communicate how it’s actually gonna be quite cool to have this conversation from two different perspectives.
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah. So test and refine, I think, is a general rule for everything when it comes to business.
Yep. Okay. Thank you very much. It does helpful.
My pleasure.
Christie, can you just say the question again that you said we should be answering in our podcast pitch?
Like, what does this person So how how is my presence on the podcast going to help this person’s podcast be more successful?
So how’s it gonna help them get more listens? It gonna help me get more subscribes? How’s it gonna help them get more shareable content? So basically, how are you gonna serve the goals that they have for their podcast?
Perfect. Thank you.
Think I said it differently the first time around, but that’s approximate.
Alright, guys. Thank you so much for coming along. Sorry again. The snafu at the start. I don’t know what was happening with my computer. Anyway, almost happens at six AM.
Please keep me posted in Slack, ping me with any questions, any help, anytime you get stuck. I wanna see you keep these big goals. I wanna see you make progress towards them, I wanna see you do the thing, and I wanna just hold your feet to the fire, I guess, over the next over the next few months is these steps unfold.
Alright.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Bye.

Worksheet

Thinking Big

Worksheet

Thinking Big

Transcript

Crafting a Highly Effective Guarantee

Reducing Risk: Crafting Highly Effective Guarantees

Transcript

So hopefully everyone watching this on the replay, I hope you have got your worksheet, for this training at the right because we’re going to be referring to this, as I go.

I’m very excited to jump into guarantees with you because I know that for a lot of you in this group, the work that you’re doing not only in this program but also currently in the intensive means that you are in the process of finding your offers or even creating entirely new ones, raising your rates and also doing things like looking at, high value retainers for possibly the first time.

And I think that whenever you do something new, whether that is selling something at that higher price point or selling a new offer or working with a new kind of client.

When you do something for the first time, there’s always a leap of faith you have to take, to do the thing. And of course it’s my job to coach you over that. Because a huge part of mindset I think is that once you are doing the thing then you have the proof that you can do it, which, of course, can help, reduce, the sting of those mindset gremlins, as you move through your business.

So with that in mind, as you’ll know from the worksheet and from Sarah’s post, this workshop is all about crafting highly effective guarantees for your offers.

And this is really key because obviously an awesome guarantee will not only remove or reduce risk for your prospect to the point at which they feel really confident, opting into your offer and making that purchase, but they will also remove or reduce risk for you if you’re feeling a little bit wobbly about putting an offer out there or putting a price point out there for the first time. Because that means you’re not just asking your prospect to sort of trust that you’ll do the thing. You have actually an agreement in place that means that if you don’t do a certain thing, then they will get a certain thing in return. So the means of the exchange is really clear. And this is something that can really just help in a practical sense, you do one of those scary things for the first time.

Now, of course, the days of the super vague, if you do everything inside and don’t get the results you’re after, let me know and I’ll give you a full refund. The days of those guarantees working I think are over.

Although I do feel like there was a weird time in the late 20s where they did work for some offers.

But what I’m seeing not only in my own business but in my clients’ businesses and the work I do for them, what I’m seeing at the moment in terms of guarantees that work are those that are really hyper specific guarantees and also guarantees that are really easy to action.

So I wanted to show you a few examples of what those look like. These are real examples taken from various parts of my business.

And then I will also pull up the worksheet, just to, step through, what you’re looking at so you can hopefully understand what the questions and the prompts in the worksheets are asking for.

So hang on. Let me share my screen.

So I’m on a new on a new laptop for the first time, and it means I have a fancy new Zoom with buttons in different places than I’m used to. Here we go.

Okay.

There we are. Alright. Share screen. Okay. So you should be able to see, hopefully, a guarantee written here on a green blue slide.

Let me just make that bigger so we’re hanging out it properly. Alright.

So this was a guarantee that I wrote for one of my clients and this was actually quite a few years ago now.

But this was for a program for people with hypothyroidism.

So a condition that really causes like a whole raft of physical symptoms, none of which are very appealing. So things like incredible lethargy, weight gain, infertility, really bad mood swings, that kind of vein of things.

And when I was doing the voice of customer research for this project, which was a launch, I kept finding that reliably when I was asking, you know, what was the first shift in order to start joining the program? People would say that by day four or five, they actually felt like they had an insane amount of energy, like something they hadn’t experienced, since their thyroid had started playing up.

This was repeated by everyone I spoke to in my interviews and also in the, survey that I sent out to those I couldn’t interview. It was a really common response.

And speaking with Erin, who is the lady behind this program, she backed that up. She was like, oh, yeah. People always really see that boost in energy, you know, you know, in the first within the first three or four three or four or five days. So, well, I made this into her guarantee. And as you can see here, it reads, if by day five you don’t lose a significant boost in energy, I’m talking the most alive you’ve ever felt since your thyroid decided to pack up and leave the building, just email me to request a refund. That’s how convinced I am that this program will change everything for you, all with teeny tiny baby steps that take just fifteen minutes a day.

I’ll mention here too before I pivot from here into the worksheet so you can have a look at the mechanics, of what is working here with this guarantee.

The teeny tiny baby steps were really important for this program because obviously if you’re someone who is experiencing all those symptoms that I mentioned earlier, the idea of being able to find a half hour or an hour a day or something to implement the changes you’re learning about in the course is obviously going to be overwhelming. So, this is also a really important thing to put here and this links back into the minimum viable commitment.

So I will switch screens now but it will be clunky because that is how I roll.

Here we go. So if you look to your worksheet, you will see that the first prompt here is asking you to identify what the quickest valuable win is for the offer that you’re working with.

Now hopefully quickest valuable win is a familiar term for you. It’s one of RISE genius concepts, it’s in copy school. I believe Sarah sent through, in this week’s email, the links or the sort of bookmarks to, where you can revisit it if you need to. But basically, it’s based on the idea that, as humans, we are far more motivated by outcomes, results, or rewards that are in the near term.

So even though, you know, the big picture promise of your offer might be something much grander and in the case that we just looked at, it was much grander than having more energy, that fact that that was actually still quite a huge win for people, people who have been feeling flat as a pancake for so long, that promise is really appealing because it’s in such the near future. They can imagine that in five days from now, oh wow what if I do actually have that energy? That’s a really compelling promise to offer them. So when you’re thinking through this for your own offers, obviously, I’ve got here some just check points for you to make sure that you have actually identified the quickest valuable win. So making sure that it is actually quick. Right? And really the sooner the better.

Making sure that it’s also valuable. So being able to answer the question of why does that actually matter? Because if you answered that then you may have identified a quick win but it may not be powerful or meaningful enough to actually make that guarantee pack a punch.

The other thing that needs to be, here I think, and this is only in my experience, but I mean it definitely works, is that it needs to be measurable or demonstratable.

Because if it’s neither of those things, there is a bit of room for interpretation into whether your customer has actually got their end of the bargain. So the question here, how will you, you and or your client customer know they’ve actually hit this win?

And for the example that I just shared, the thyroid program, that was actually part of the fifteen minutes a day work that people went through. There was a three question check-in every day and one of those questions was how’s your energy today? It was a really simple Likert scale. I think it was even framed in frowny face to really smiley face. So a way for people to capture that information and also importantly a way for the course creator to capture that information.

In that case it was really simple, really quick, really effective and I’m sure for most people they had forgotten that that was the guarantee when they were answering those questions.

But that’s just one example to hopefully help your brain tick over. I’ve got a couple more examples too but I’ll just talk through these last, this last point on this page before I dive back in, to some guarantees.

So for DIY offers, so that’s things like courses or digital products only, I think it’s also really important that the guarantee requires a minimum viable commitment from your prospects.

So what do they actually have to do to realize this quickest valuable win?

And, again, this is a glorious concept from the brain of rye. But if you need a refresher, basically, it is all about the fact that, you know, your most most of your prospects are not going to be, you know, the gold standard of person when it comes to a course or digital product in that, you know, some sure will do, like, absolutely everything that’s available to them, take up every opportunity, devote the right number of hours, etcetera, etcetera. But for the average prospect, the idea of having to do that to get a result is quite overwhelming and is often reason for them not to purchase. So you need to think about how is it actually, you know, a reasonable effort on their part.

So for example, I mean, in this case, with the thyroid program guarantee, it referenced that fifteen minutes a day. So that is a way to really reinforce that hey, this is actually quite doable. Like on the sales page and in the emails, I talked about, you know, being able to do that, you know, first thing in the morning or even over your lunch break. So talk on the bus on the way to work. So Finding ways where you could make that really actionable and feel very approachable.

So as another example, like if you are trying to build this out for some sort of, course or workshop, obviously, it is much more appealing for your prospect to hear that you will have this quickest valuable win by the time you’re seventeen minutes into the first module, rather than by the time you’ve watched all the modules and done all the worksheets, because that can feel like a reason not to buy. So hopefully that makes sense. If you don’t have any questions on any of this, by the way, because I’m talking to myself here, please, please, please ping me in Slack. I’m so happy to unpack this further, to help it make sense, to help make it really actionable. So do not hesitate.

If we have a look at another guarantee, just to again get some more ideas flowing for what might be in front of you. This is a guarantee that I had for one of my own offers, which was a launch service.

So, a service that I actually marketed in what I think of now as quite an aggressive way. I the sales page was actually a teardown, although I hate that term, but that’s what it was, of, someone’s launch. And it was a personality here in Australia who’s quite a big deal. She just stepped into the online course market. I think it was six months prior.

And her launch strategy, her sales page, her emails, had many opportunities for optimization. So the sales page for this offer was actually that and then I segued into the offer, which explains why the first sentence of the guarantee here is if I can’t identify at least three key opportunities, like the ones above, for optimization during your next launch, I’ll shimmy your money straight back to you along with an apology for the hassle. No awkward email exchange required.

So this is an example of what a guarantee can look like for a one to one service.

And again, you know, this win is quite quick and valuable because the service itself is quite quick. It was a sixty minute launch day brief call, so as soon as they booked in they filled out their intake form, I then went through all their data, all their stats, all their thoughts about the launch, and then we had a sixty minute call where we could discuss that and I could feedback my findings.

So knowing that they would have at least three key opportunities for optimization by the end of that call was appealing because my prospect for this offer was someone who had launched, you know, more than likely, you know, two or three times. Something wasn’t clicking or something wasn’t working as well as they wanted it to, but they couldn’t pinpoint what that thing was. So this idea of being able to have real clarity around what they should focus on next time to yield some better results and yield some better conversions was highly appealing.

The other thing to point out here is that, obviously, this is really easily measurable, and I can do the measuring here. Like, if I don’t have at least three opportunities for optimization, like, I will know that, which is why I can also offer in this guarantee that, you know, there’s no awkward email exchange required because I’ll be able to see that. So it’ll be just on me to say, hey, I’m so sorry.

I could not meet my minimum standard for success with this offer for you. I’ve just refunded your money.

Which is probably a good segue into talking about some of what is on the second page of your worksheet for this workshop.

So this page here is all about what you’ll provide if your offer doesn’t deliver.

And as a quick note here, you don’t always need to offer a refund. There are absolutely other things you can offer, in the place of just returning someone’s money. And I think when it comes to this, it’s really helpful to think about the role that the offer you’re working with is playing in your business ecosystem.

So for example, let’s say it’s the first time you are trialing out your retainer offer.

It may be that it is worth it for you to get insight and experience into how this works in real terms to offer that if you can’t meet a certain benchmark of optimization after say three or six months, you know, that you will provide two months free.

Or if you are, working this through with, say, a bigger project, but, you know, it’s still a clearly defined project and one that doesn’t roll on, it might be that they don’t have to pay their final fifty percent if you can’t reach whatever the thing is that you’ve offered as a quickest valuable win for them.

It could also be that you may offer additional access to you. So maybe you offer an additional coaching session with someone.

You know, so extra hands on help can obviously, be really appealing depending on the offer.

Having said that, if you are looking at what to offer for a guarantee for something that is designed to help you really scale your business, so a one to many offer like a a course or a digital product that doesn’t really require any real time input from you for delivery, it probably doesn’t make sense to offer something like an additional one to one session with you, because that sort of defeats the purpose of that offer, if that makes sense.

Again, if any of this is confusing, please please please reach out in Slack, and I’m so happy to talk through it in a different way, that will hopefully resonate. So, sorry that was a lot of talking. So when you are thinking through what this is, two things here to check it. So make sure it’s compelling.

You know, why why is this actually a really compelling, enticing guarantee or exchange for your prospect? Is it compelling enough?

You know, you need to be able to look at this and say clearly, yes. It is. It really makes the option to purchase this for my ideal prospect a no brainer. That’s really what you’re aiming for here. The other thing that I think is incredibly important to think about and I think can really impact the effect your guarantee has on selling your offer is is it frictionless? So how can you make this easy for your client or customer to ask for if your offer fails to deliver?

I think there are far too many guarantees out there that really put the onus on the customer themselves to activate it. And of course I understand why that is, but I think what that can actually do is devalue the guarantee even if otherwise the exchange is quite appealing.

So as an example, I run a copywriting course called Braincamp. I think I’ve run it since twenty eighteen now. So a long time. But ever since I started, I’ve actually emailed people, like, two days before the guarantee period ends to check-in with them to see how they’re doing and let them know, you know, hey. Here’s your chance to reach out if you feel like, you’re not getting what you came for.

So just an example. But I also think that so much of business is built on reputation.

Particularly when you’re gaining traction and making a name for yourself in the space. So anything you can do to really stand by your guarantee and stand by the fact that you want to do some really awesome work with really awesome people and you wanna make sure that it’s coming off, I think that pays dividends one hundred percent.

Alright. Let me flick back to here, so we can have a look at one more guarantee.

This one was one I wrote for a Client who works, she’s like a virtual COO she calls herself. So she works to help people set up automations and systems in their business, to help them save time and increase productivity.

Her client is any creative professional, so copywriter, designer, podcast editor, anyone like that. But basically people who have repeatable processes in their business that they’re feeling bogged down by and really want be able to automate or outsource.

This was for a program that she was beta testing for the first time. So, she for added context, just in case it’s relevant, she was just coming back for maternity leave and she was looking for ways to sort of leverage her now more limited time in her business.

So was turning or had turned her one to one offering into an online course so that she could still serve people, ideally to get the same outcomes, but do it with a much lower time and energy investment from herself for the actual delivery of that of that service.

So the guarantee that we landed on was this. If you haven’t been able to set up a high end for them, low touch for you, onboarding automation for at least one of your offers fourteen days from now, I want to know. Email me directly, and there’s a script you can copy paste below to make it as easy as possible because I know reaching out to someone to let them know their program hasn’t delivered can feel incredibly awkward. And I’ll reply with the link to my calendar so we can book a call and work it through together. In other words, there’s no way you’re moving to the next month feeling as bogged down in your business as you are right now.

So to break this down with the concepts we’ve just looked at from that worksheet, quick is valuable when, you know, fourteen days after starting the program that they can have the onboarding automation for their for one offer. And most of them would choose probably their primary offer, like uploaded, done, running basically on autopilot, to open up some more time and space for them within their business to do the things that are more important than doing that task live.

It is very easy for a customer to activate this guarantee. And I actually do have the script for that email on the next slide, which I’ll show you just in case you wanna have a look at what that looks like.

So, you know, the thought of them being like, oh, this is actually a good guarantee, but, god, would I am I the kind of person who would actually go out of my way to, you know, to let Lauren know? Like, I don’t know. You know, that that worry is taken away from them.

The exchange here, so book a call and work it through together. So the reason that, my client and I landed on this as, her offer for or her part of the guarantee is because this was a beta test of this offer. So she really wanted, one, proof that it worked so that she could launch it and sell it at scale in the future, And also to social proof for marketing. So, for her, it was more valuable to be able to spend a bit of extra time with anyone who didn’t get to this quickest valuable win for whatever reason so she could find out why, what was missing from the program, she could optimize from there and also so that she could ideally get some really good social proof to help her with future launches and sales and eventual evergreening.

So just another very different example and hopefully something that can give you something else to pull from as you’re looking at your office suite or your client’s office suites and trying to really work out what fits.

Oh, and I’ll just show you here too. Sorry, this is copy pasted from a launch email that I wrote for her. But in the PS I included that guaranteed script and this is what it looks like just in case is an idea you want to pinch for yourself.

PS, here’s that non awkward guaranteed script just in case you need it. Hey, Lauren. I haven’t been able to set up that onboarding automation like you promised. Can you please send me that link to your calendar so we can get it sorted?

So hopefully, as you can see, that’s quite a compelling thing to include in a in a sales email, because it really closes the loop. It really reinforces that, she means this guarantee and she wants you to activate it if you do not get the thing that she has promised.

So I think all of these things make this guarantee real, tangible, precise, specific, all those things that I spoke about at the top of this workshop, that are really working, to cement and increase conversions. I think particularly in this era where, you know, world economies and all those sorts of things are not ideal. Right? People it’s not that people are afraid to spend money. People are afraid to spend money poorly. So to spend money on things that don’t work or don’t get them the things that they want. So if you can remove that risk for them, the decision to purchase becomes a lot easier.

And as I mentioned, the ability for you to stand behind and confidently sell your offer also increases, because you know you have this ironclad agreement in there. That, hey, like, I promise if I do not do x by y, I’m gonna do this. Like, I’m gonna make it good.

I want this to be a super solid investment for you and if it’s not, I haven’t done my job. So I’ve been able to have that conversation whether it’s on a sales call or whether it is a conversation that you have, on a sales page or in a launch sequence, it is really powerful. And I think can really help you and your offer stand out, and, of course, really help you sell with ease.

Now I think the only other thing that is on this worksheet is just a fill in the blanks, type thing. Obviously, this may oh, sorry. That looks funny. This may not, be the final form of your guarantee. But If you pull it all together into this, you’ll at least get a chance to see what it looks like together. And just check again, is it compelling? Is it frictionless?

Is the win here really meaningful? Does this look like something that my ideal prospect is going to respond to positively?

And does this feel like something that makes me more able to sell my big scary big hairy offers, in a new space or in a new way?

I was planning on using the rest of this time today to work through this with you, give you some time to go through the worksheet, help you troubleshoot, the guarantees, and also talk to you about the mindset side of things. So, try and dig into how or if this does change your confidence in terms of going ahead and selling that new offer or selling at that new price point, and also dig into some other things that may be lurking in there so that we can, workshop those, or build some exercises out around those for future workshops.

Because if you’re watching this it’s a replay, obviously.

I don’t think even Shane has the AI to make that sort of exchange possible, right here on this video.

But please ping me in Slack. I would love to help you through any and all of that, and I would love to see these guarantees out in the wild and hear about how they’re performing, how they’re helping you sell, make sales, and increase conversions.

Worksheet

The Highly-Effective Guarantee