K. So then can I ask one tiny question related to that? I think so.

Thinking about that, and currently, I have Instagram and no posts because I’m like You don’t have Instagram.

Hey. I have an account.

I have a handle with nothing.

But I’m terrified to put anything out there because I’m like Why? What do I what what who am I to say anything? But then you’re talking about just go in and like you own it.

But then I also like, yeah. But I haven’t done, like, this thing in its entirety.

Yeah.

So can I just I don’t wanna say fake it? Like, I’ve done landing pages. I’ve done emails. I’ve done strategy. Like, I’ve done the bits, but I haven’t put them all together to get the result that I’m ultimately wanting to promise.

Mhmm.

You’re not faking it. You’re not lying. Mhmm. You’re saying this matters. This is important. You can come at this from the angle of I am learning about this stuff, and it’s incredible what you can do when you start to know this stuff.

It doesn’t mean you have to come at it as a as a new person either because you have this rich history that you get to bring to this to to talking about it now. I honestly feel like things like fake, failure, imposter, those are words that are created to keep you from moving forward. Mhmm. So just bat them away as they come at you.

Got it. It’s pickleball. Just, like, get rid of it. Just like and it goes away.

I don’t know. But everybody’s talking about pickleball, and I just went by a port. But, like, just poof.

No. No to fake. As soon as it comes in, I’m sure there’s meditative ways to, like, watch it float by. Or you can just bat that shit away. Just like, it’s enough. Like, you know you’re not a fake. Okay?

Full stop. Period. That is a complete sentence. That’s it.

So then I can just, like, talk about the components of it and why it matters and, like, I’m excited about it so that people Your curiosity will inspire other people to be curious, and that’s good.

I know some copywriters will come along and wanna learn from you. You will cross that bridge when we get there. But for now, your curiosity could get the Tara Robertsons of the world, the CMOs to go like, I’m curious about that too. Like, we should bring Marina in to, like, see what we can do here.

So just like the more curious, the more the more, like, open you are about your curiosity and what you’re learning Mhmm.

You’re not a you’re not doing anything remotely wrong if you’re worried about that by sharing your curiosity and these, like, outstanding things that you’re discovering oh, with the world. That’s all a case study is when someone presents a case study. They’re not saying I knew going into this that it would go this way. That would be the most boring case study.

It’s gotta be like, we thought it was this. It turned into that. What the and here’s what we learned. And that’s exactly what you’re going through right now.

I thought it was this. Turns out it’s that. What?

That’s good content.

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay.

So I know you’ve said this before, like, don’t worry about how big your Instagram following is or whatever. I created the channel after being on a social media break for two years or something like that. Yeah. And I have a plan for how to get back, like, become invisible on Instagram.

I’m gonna have my VA reach out to all the podcast hosts that have published my content there and just, like, tag me and whatever.

But I’m still kind of stuck on, is it worth building a a funnel with ManyChat right now when I have, like, twenty five followers on Instagram and the real reach, that’s, like, under one hundred.

So is it that the idea of building this funnel is going to take you a long time, time you don’t have?

No. It’s it’s just like a matter of, like, prioritizing what I have, the resources I have, and using what I’ve built so far instead of, like, starting a new channel from the beginning and then kind of expecting results from that channel?

So okay. A couple of things. I think it’s a good question.

Having a ManyChat automation, having any automation, the the thought coming to my head is, like, it doesn’t weigh anything. It’s not heavy. You don’t have to carry it along forever. You make it, and then it sits there.

When is the best time to build something like that? When’s the best time? When are you ready for an automation?

How many possible good leads are you comfortable losing because you didn’t want to set the thing up for them yet?

I get the benefits of setting up the automation. I have actually created ManyChat, like, the accounts.

Yeah. I’m building, like, the idea of, like, the horror funnel with the lead magnet and what they should be asking for. And I get it. It’s so useful. But my problem is this.

So building a ManyChat automation that’s easy, I can do that. No problem. But I will still have to build the visibility on Instagram.

Yeah.

So that there would be people who would comment and trigger the automation. So that’s my that’s where I’m possibly stuck right now. It’s like, is this the best channel for me to focus my efforts right now, or is there something else I should be doing? Because it it really like, it’s learning a whole new system for how to create a reel that has a really good hook so that it reaches a lot of people. Mhmm.

You’ll learn to do that at some point. It’s just a question of is it now.

And and that’s the thing. So sometimes you just need I find that sometimes I just need to be told to do a thing by someone. I was not on social media forever, ever, forever. And then I was away at a, like, yoga thing with a business friend, and she’s very good at just saying things directly to me that she doesn’t even realize she said. And I’m like, oh, I should do that. And she just looked at me and said, like, Joe, you gotta get on Instagram. And, like, she, like, walked away.

And, I went back, and I hired someone to run our Instagram for us, and that was it. Now I just needed to be told that by somebody. It has paid off. It’s a good thing.

It’s it’s an interesting thing in a lot of ways. I get that, like, you would be the one doing it probably. Right? Unless you were to hire, like, a virtual assistant to do it.

Now is also a good time to practice, though. Right? Like, now is a good time. If nobody’s really if you don’t have a lot of people on there, now you can try different stuff, see how people react to it. So think of it kind of like a testing ground for how you’ll position yourself or what your brand sounds like or looks like.

That can be a good thing. Don’t do I can’t I can’t tell you. Do it and have you do it. Maybe I can.

If your if your gut is something that you have depended on and it’s been successful along the way and your gut is telling you, I don’t need to spend my time here. I could spend it somewhere else. Okay.

I’m your coach. I’ll I can only do so much here.

But but what would go wrong and slash what could go right in actually getting on Instagram?

That’s the question that, like, you have to answer.

I would just say that, like, it’s a really good use of time in getting your brand message out, period.

Does that make sense? Yeah. It’s just that, like, you’re you gotta be somewhere. Right? You actually do have to be somewhere. YouTube is too hard. Takes too long, too freaking hard.

LinkedIn is overrun by people pitching them. Like, it’s it’s a garbage land. You can still do some things. Sure. Some people are still successful. Yes. I do recommend that you also do in, LinkedIn.

Instagram is a different interesting space.

If you have to be somewhere, you have to choose one. Which one is it? Do you have I would say, there’s really you can’t build a business outside of building a business on referrals alone. If you can do referrals alone, great. But, eventually, the referrals absolutely run out.

They don’t mean to, but they just do. You will need to show up somewhere socially.

That makes sense. And actually hearing you basically compare or putting things into perspective, like YouTube, LinkedIn, and Instagram, that is helpful. I mean, the content is already there. I just have to publish it on Instagram. I’m gonna just hire someone who’s gonna do the SEO stuff on Instagram.

Nice. Tina just gave you a big old thumbs up. I love it. That’s great. Right?

And don’t worry. You don’t have to become an expert in social. You don’t have to care about what makes a good reel. Just hire someone if you can.

If you’re in the position to do so, do so. Hire someone to do it. Make it an experiment. We’re all in the business of experimentation.

This is just an experiment. Give yourself three months with a person having ten hours a week. You don’t have to post constantly. You can post one really good thing a week, whatever works there.

But, yeah, I think that’s fantastic if you do that. Yay. Do that, Monica.

Okay. Cool. Then I’ll build I’ll build a new process.

So okay. My question is really stupid now. It feels like after the great conversation of Abby and you know? But I, but I feel better that Adnan also kind of asked a similar ish. So the whole Instagram building, picking your thing.

So I thought I was on the holiday win, seasonal sales, you guys all know this. But then I started talking a bit about the other side of the seasonal sale or sale and the problem of, oh, great.

What do I do now? Because I got these people. Discount was basically the way I got them. Now what do I do with them? Or even with leads who came in, you know, on my email list from a discount something. So then Abby and I were chatting, and she said a phrase that I went and got the domain. It was ditch the damn discount.

And I was like, oh, I kinda like that.

That’s my voice. I swear a lot and, you know, whatever. So I know that the holiday win and ditch the damn discount, neither of them sound like a good agency name, so I’m still sticking with Wright and Maine. But yes.

Oh, yeah. Sorry. Abby. Abby does not swear. I swear, so I did add the damn.

That’s true. You’re right, Abby. Sorry.

Misrepresented you there.

But I’m just wondering, what do what do we think For Instagram and the content building and all that, does it matter that my agency isn’t gonna have the same name as all the platforms that I would be building on other than my blog? Does that matter?

It’s really hard to say. The ideal state is it all works together, obviously.

I prefer, as a side note, ditch the damn course you do. Win. Or ditch the discount as well. The holiday win is just such a Hallmark movie title for me. Like, I cannot see past it.

I just see them standing together with snow.

So, yeah. I I really like it. I think it’s like it taps into that pain. I wish I didn’t have to discount to acquire clients. Why do I have to do or customers.

So that’s it’s really interesting.

Good book title, potentially, good talk title as well, when you’re, yeah, good all of it. There’s lots of ways you can use it, so that’s good.

When it comes to your agency name, I don’t think it really, like, idea again, be ideal if they all work together. Yeah. I don’t know that Wright and Maine is going to stick around forever as your name. No.

Probably not. No. Yeah. So you can change it later. But I think, like, get to a place of just feeling good about this first one and then get the right domains for it and handles.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Perfect.

You don’t have to call your agency, ditch the damn discount.

Ditch the down. Yeah. No.

I don’t think you want, like I know.

I I was thinking about the app too. Like, how Yeah. Yeah. I know.

No. It’s not working either. No. Okay. Yeah. But no. I like it. It’s I like where you’re also going.

This is evolving nicely. You’re really working on it. Well done.

Yeah. So what I hear in the more whether it’s LinkedIn or it’s marketing events, I hear over and over and over again.

If you know Chris Walker, everyone I talk to loves him Okay.

Nice.

About how PPC is on the decline. This is also true because Google is going through a hard time. How many people did Google lay off K. Because of AI. So PPC is not as effective as it once was, especially for b two b, and neither is, neither are ads.

And so people are really shifting towards more of an ABM approach. Mhmm.

And they’re shifting away they’re they’re not cutting their Google Ads, but they’re reducing it. So you have, like, your main keyword, your competitor keywords, and, like, a couple of, like, large categories.

And, like, that’s it. Mhmm.

And PBZ is is fun because it’s really measurable. You know? Like, you can it’s bottom of the funnel, so you can, like, pretty much measure how many people are signing up. But if a lot of these companies are reducing their spend, they only have, like, three or four landing pages. It’s not where they’re putting their main it’s not where they’re putting their focus, and it’s not what they’re prioritizing, then I feel like it might be hard to re because I I’m just not I’m not getting a lot of people who are interested in that or talking about that.

I get a lot of people interested in more in more ABM sorts of campaigns, or even if it’s, like, a webinar.

And I was speaking to a of a friend of mine, and he mentioned that he thought that the idea of, like, a customer journey might be, like, ads, emails, landing pages, like, things like that. It might be an easier might be a more compelling phrase or more something a little bit more relevant for a lot of B2B marketers these days.

But it feels very much it it it feels a lot less data driven because it’s, again, it’s hard to track. It’s hard to measure.

It’s a little bit, like, yeah, you can measure clicks, but it’s hard to track that to pipeline.

And the other thing, I did a lot of content syndication before, but con I ever hate content syndication.

It’s like, say it, people, like, write you off right away.

Like, we tried that. We lost a bunch of money. We don’t wanna do it again. We don’t wanna do that. Like, don’t talk about content syndication, because it requires a lot of follow-up, a lot of, a lot of retargeting, a lot of effort from sales, and they might not have that infrastructure in place, so it could be it could be a big money box. So I’m wondering in terms of positioning where I could sort of find myself in that landscape.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

I mean, there’s always this the sky is falling for everything. The second that you decide to specialize in something, without fail, someone else comes along and says, oh, that’s dead. Didn’t show that’s dead. That’s dead.

So I would, like, take it with a grain of salt.

Honestly, ABM was big ten years ago, then it wasn’t, And now it is. So if you’d stuck with ABM the whole way through, your life would have been glorious, even though there was a dip.

Right?

And if you’re saying ABM’s back, this is all marketing.

Marketers love saying crap like this. Google is unlikely to be cool with letting their business die. It’s just a it’s just a wild guess.

So with that understood, I wouldn’t be in a panic. I frankly wouldn’t. We as copywriters have seen many panics come and go. Email’s dead.

Email’s alive. Email’s the best. It’s the worst. Copywriters are dead. Copywriters are alive. Copywriters use ChatGPT.

Copywriters don’t. Back and forth. That’s what we did. It’s like it goes on and on. I wouldn’t make decisions based on trends. But if you are worried that you are positioning yourself too closely to something that can be killed, such as if you were to do, I’m gonna only do ads for taxi drivers.

Maybe that’s the end of times for taxi drivers coming. You might not wanna hit your wagon to something that could have a clear end date because all signs are pointing that way, instead, hit your way into something more general, Ads for cars, ads for ways to transport people, which could be planes and taxis and buses and all of the things and event everybody’s always going to need the solution.

So what’s the solution? Everybody always needs to make sure that any spend they have here turns into ROI there. So what does that look like? What can you call it? And if you don’t have to call it something, if you don’t need to call it Google ad landing page optimization, then don’t. Then call it something else. But I wouldn’t also be quick to unhitch my wagon from something that is a behemoth.

Like, if it if it’s taken down, it’d be shocking if people stopped doing that thing entirely.

I mean, it would be shocking. So shocking that you’re not being foolish in saying, like, I doubt that that corporation’s gonna let that happen. If they let it happen, that marketers stop using Google Ads, then you would be you would not you’d be right to be surprised.

So that’s me my way of saying, don’t panic. I’m tired of panicking. And every time that we have panicked a year later, it’s like, oh, so there was no reason to panic. Cool. So everybody just likes keeping me stressed. That’s awesome.

Just, like, stop, and then let your life go back to or just, like, keep doing your thing, and people will come back on board. And if they don’t, then you were probably too closely tied to the thing that was destined to die.

Is are Google Ads destined to die? Some of us wish they would. Yeah. But I don’t see that happening.

Does that make sense, Naomi?

Like, it’s the basic rule is, like Yeah.

For sure. No. Yeah. People like to ask for pricing.

Exactly what Andrew just said. Yeah.

I I do I do notice it.

Not that it’s dying, but that it’s a much lower priority.

Yeah.

Do you have have you had any phrases that you think would be more encompassing, more comprehensive of, like, ads, emails, landing pages, etcetera, for something beyond just Google that would be attractive to a.

Yeah. I don’t know what it is, but thank god we’re all in the business of words around here, and it is a thing that you can own when you come up with the term.

I don’t know I don’t know what it is. I would say find the name give a name to the solution, and then that’s the wagon that other people hitch on to their problem. So I’m doing a lot of wagon talking here, but, what is the solution that you offer?

And it doesn’t have to be specific to ads, but what’s the what what what do you offer? Forget about the delivery.

Forget about all of that. Like, the tools, the platforms, don’t worry about that. What’s the solution that you offer to your persona’s key problems?

And then then write it down. Write it down twenty five different ways until you get to a term, and that’s then the term you can own. If it doesn’t exist, you get to create that term, which is partly difficult, but partly a huge opportunity.

Creating inbound did not hurt HubSpot one bit. Creating conversion copywriting didn’t hurt me either, and it won’t hurt you to create whatever this thing is that maybe you’re on track to create.

If you’re up for the challenge it’s a fun entrepreneurial challenge, isn’t it? Isn’t that fun being an entrepreneur?

No? Just me? Alright. Yes. No.

Yeah. Rise above the tactics, Stacy says. Cool.

Maybe give it some thought and throw some ideas, Naomi, in Slack, and we can all kind of build on what that could be called.

Yeah. I think it’s it’s a little bit nonstandardized, which is what the tricky part is. It looks very different depending on the company.

Or it’s a little bit ambiguous.

Amorphous.

Okay. Let’s try that.

So I have the the domain emails for SaaS. I’ve had it for a while, and I actually have a site up as well. And I do emails for SaaS as well. So now as I’m focusing more on pricing pages or or pivoting or making that sort of, like, the highlight Mhmm.

Should my Instagram be about my name, or should that be, like, a brand I’m trying to build? Or, or should that be, like, SaaS marketing something around SaaS marketing? Because then it it allows me to talk about emails for SaaS and also pricing pages for SaaS. What are your thoughts?

So what where are you leaning right now?

In terms of what I wanna do?

Yeah. What what do you think it should be about? I just wanna, like, chat through that.

Oh, okay. Sure. Yeah. So I’m leaning more towards just keeping it broadly SaaS marketing type thing. Like, I was thinking SaaS marketing done right or SaaS copy done right, something along those lines because it gives me room to talk about other things and not just emails and not just pricing pages.

Okay. So what is your worry about just talking about emails or pricing pages?

Okay. So with pricing pages, I think it’s good. I I just feel like if I wanna talk about emails down the road, I have to now add another another page.

Oh, no. Like a new Instagram?

Yeah. Like a new handle.

No.

Yeah. You won’t. I’ve there are so many people who talk about multiple things in their Instagram, But when it comes to the handle, then, yeah, the more specific you are, the tougher it is to leave that behind. So if you were to say pricing pages for SaaS and then you ended up talking about Facebook ads, that’d be weird.

It’d be a little weird. People would forgive you for it, but you’ve got time right now to get it right. So I get it. Makes sense to get it right.

What’s the handle that you’re thinking? You you bought email for SaaS?

So I have the domain emails for SaaS dot com.

Emails for SaaS. But you wanted to specialize in pricing pages?

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Was pricing pages for SaaS not available? I’d be shocked.

I haven’t looked at it. I mean, this is emails for SaaS was last year. This is a lot.

Yeah. So would you just say start with pricing pages and worry about all that rest later?

I would I’m thinking about the brand overall. So Instagram is just one part of your bigger brand, your authority building, what you’re going to be putting out into the world. If we’re thinking at that level, then it comes back to the question of what do you want this business to be in five years?

Five years from now, you’re out. You’re doing this. You’ve got clients. They’re paying you. What are you building?

Okay.

No. But what do you think it is, like, off the top of your head?

I know it sounds rhetorical, but, like, for real.

Yeah. Maybe not five years down the road.

I have thought about two years down the road K.

That I I that I do wanna do pricing pages and emails together and and offer that as a package because they we can work together. Right? Of course.

So that’s what I have thought about.

Okay. That’s good. And that could extend five years out as well. By the time you get that, you know, motor running, you won’t wanna turn it off right away, and it’s unlikely you’ll have worn it out. So pricing and SAS together, what brand name are you thinking of? Like, what’s what’s the company called?

I know you bought a domain, but is that what you were thinking of calling it?

So I’m, I’m incorporated, under the name of Growth Copy, but with can I mean, in Canada, I don’t think we have to, like, cooperate with the name that you incorporated in? So you can be any name, really. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. We’re Weave Marketing Limited. Okay. That’s a terrible name.

Okay.

So what are well, what do you think? What’s your brand?

So SaaS marketing done right. I was thinking been able that for a while, but it’s too long.

Well But, yeah, it’s it’s still in process of trying to think of things.

You wanna do SaaS. It sounds like it’s there. You get SaaS. Put SaaS in there in some way. Find a domain that works there, that again, as you said, isn’t too long.

I would just keep it high level for the name so you can play around a bit with it, and then that opens you up. But what I wouldn’t do is start with content that is generic. I’d go super narrow.

Start with your pricing page stuff that you already know all sorts of stuff about.

Dig in, create content on that because it’ll be easy for you. And narrow is better. Anybody reflecting on their early business mistakes will say to you, we were too broad out of the gate. We should have gone more narrow with our audience.

It feels limiting. It is not. It’s the way to start.

So pricing content, make it some Instagram handle that SaaS related, has s a a s in it, but isn’t so narrow as a name that you can’t branch out.

Okay.

Okay? Good? Got it. I know that’s semi helpful because you’re not walking away with a name, but general guidance.

Oh, no. No. It’s helpful. Yeah. So at least I know, like, so keep it kinda broad so that you’re focusing now on pricing pieces where you have the room to kinda talk about emails, talk about pretty much anything starts really down the road.

Yeah. Right? Okay.

Yeah. I mean, you could get AI to come up with some ideas for that Instagram handle for you. You could do all sorts of things, that doesn’t have to, like, put the strain on your brain. Yeah. But handles general content is specific.

Okay. Okay?

Thank you.

Cool. Thank you.

Jessica’s having the same issue that I’m having, it’s kind of like, okay. I’m gonna go start the Instagram. Right? And then it’s like, then okay.

There’s an agency here. And then it’s like, well, okay. My agency, but it doesn’t really have, like, a brand or a website. And so all of a sudden, this, like, process of going down of, like, creating an Instagram has sort of revealed, like, all of these other kind of side roads.

And I’m trying to figure out, like, what the order of operations is for all of this and, like, what to spend time and money on now versus what to, like, do quickly. Jessica, is that is that what I was what you were referring to?

Everything you just said.

Yep. So yeah. So the the question more specifically was, if I can find it, it was just more about, like, okay. Yeah.

So I said, like, what’s what’s the order of operations here? Do I need a quick and dirty brand identity, like logo, colors, font, that kind of thing, and a v one of a website and then, like, get my lead magnet and my sales funnel going? Or do I just build the lead magnet and sales funnel first and then and tie that to my existing website that’s just me, not this agency that I’m building. So, yeah, what’s what’s the right order here if there is one?

Yeah. No. I love that you’re wondering about order sequencing. All that’s great.

My honest answer is I, I move really, really fast on something. So I would say just do it all at once. What are you doing this weekend? Just do it all.

That’s what I would do, and that’s the honest to goodness. Like, I don’t know what the order is because you’re right. It all comes up at basically the same time. And I think most entrepreneurs would say just set something up fast for all of those things.

That’s it. Right? Like, honestly, there’s there’s the order of operations is the second you think you need to do it, you you wear all the hats, so you just do it. You just go buy it.

You set it up. You do it quickly, and then you know that you might change it. And that sounds really not strategic. I get it.

But there’s other parts of strategy that, like, things that need to be strategic that you will be strategic about. Your name, your Instagram handle, that can change with very little effort.

Just don’t put a brand on anything yet then. So if you’re making a lead magnet, just don’t put a logo on there anywhere if you can help it.

Just the things that if it’s gonna be in print, try not to brand it, which is like, well, shouldn’t I be branding it? Well, put your contact information on there.

But avoid this is, like, even in our courses, we try not to say the name of the course because it might change. So we just, like, set the thing up, and then later, Mike adds on ten x web copy at the front of it. And now that’s what it’s called. So I would say just, like, yeah, do everything all at once.

I don’t overthink anything. That’s possibly one of my bigger problems, but also I think it’s a good thing. If something sounds cool to you and you like it and you’re like, oh, wow. I guess I should set up an agency around that now, Then, yeah, do it right that second.

Okay. So just apply. Just just go.

Just kind of like, it all explodes. Like, your business is, like, poof. It all, like like, the big bang idea just happens all at once, and then it, like, refines and gets better.

But just, like, roll with it.

Yep. Just jump. Okay. Cool. Thank you. That helps a lot. No. That that is helpful because I think, otherwise, my brain goes, you know, do I have to do this the perfect way?

So thank you.

Yeah. It’s yours to do whatever you want. Yeah. Cool.