Yeah. My question, like, is basically like, my problem is one of my problems is that the more like I there’s a correlation between stress and how much I charge So I thought that everyone kinda says, oh, when you charge more, like, your life is so much less stressful if you’ve got, like, more financial stability. But my life is more stressful because I’m always, like I feel like the more clients pay me, the more the pressure is on and, like, the more I have to copy ask the form. And, like, I kind of look back to the days when I was charging, like, six dollars and I was calling them like, those were chill days. Like, those were happy times.

So I’m just wondering, yeah, if you have any advice on how to kind of, like, untether that link between getting paid a lot and feeling stressed. Like, is there a way to kind of separate those things?

I think there’s so many ways. So my brain is just, like, racing with this.

First, I assume you’ve spoken with Kirsty about this Remindset stuff.

I haven’t. I’ve spoken to Rai about it, but not Kirsty.

Oh, yeah. I’d get on that. Definitely. What’s the highest you’ve charged so far? What’s been your most uncomfortable number?

I charged thirty thousand for two funnels.

Okay. How did those funnels work?

What do you mean? Like, what were they or, like, how did they How did they perform oh, no. Sorry. Like, once the work was completed, you handed it over. Did the was the client happy or were they unhappy?

Yeah. So they were happy with both of them. One of them is performing pretty well so far. The other one’s converting at, like, three percent.

So, like, I think it should be converting higher, probably.

Okay. But was the client disappointed? Yeah.

I think well, then I’m I’m opt I’m, like, on an optimization retailer now, and they want they want, like, ten percent conversion rates.

Well, my couple things there. I want a hundred percent conversion rate. I would like a hundred and twenty actually while we’re at it.

So okay.

If the client I out of the gate, I’m slightly worried that the clients that you’re choosing just plain can’t afford you.

They have and that doesn’t mean they will never afford you or that you’re wrong with your pricing. You’ve got a lot of expertise.

I don’t know how this stuff is set up or how it’s being measured or anything like that.

But thirty thousand dollars to set up two funnels is not a lot of money for businesses that are profitable and have money.

It’s a lot of money for businesses that don’t have a lot of money. So that’s where a lot can get in the way in your head. You work with people who have a lot of money, and these questions go away. Right?

And you get to be more of a consultant.

Work with seven bigger business owners, so they have money. Like, I don’t know.

Do it okay. Then I would ask Yeah. How do you know they were disappointed was the word I used? Maybe there’s a different word you would use.

I think because we had, like, an amazing launch, like, where they out. They got more sales than they did, like, for the whole of twenty twenty three. So I think they were kind of expecting, like, that to, like, continue or, like, with the Evergreen, they’re ex they were, like, thinking they could just, like, make, like, two hundred k a month from it. And then I think I they have really high expectations, so they don’t they don’t really understand marketing.

Okay. Okay. But Sound like what a particular client like.

It’s good that they have a seven figure business. It’s great that you help them get that business.

It’s naive for them to think that you should that you would drop this two these two funnels on them and make them bananas money for only thirty thousand dollars.

So there’s a lot to think about there.

If your emails can deliver two hundred thousand dollars just like that, then you should charge one hundred thousand dollars. Right? Like, there’s a lot you’re doing there. They’re getting directly benefited by the work that you have done.

Did they say that they’re disappointed? Because you’ve said think, think, think think I think I think I think. Did they say it?

No. They said I got an email from them from the guy on Saturday being like, we’ve only had, like, six sales this week. No bueno. Let’s get on a call. And I was like, oh god.

Okay. That helps them vibe I got.

This is one of those moments. I think this is where the more you surround yourself with people who are telling the truth about the work that they’re doing and what happens, the better you’ll feel.

And by that, I mean, I’ve had the benefit for the last fifteen years going to a lot of small group events where people attend because they’re looking for a great win, and you get to hear from people about how rarely big wins actually happen.

So your client is thinking, no bueno. We only got six sales. I don’t know what the price point is, etcetera. That’s not really the point.

What I would do in that scenario is I’m like, I don’t go into it thinking I did something wrong because you didn’t. You know you didn’t do anything wrong. There might be a product market fit problem here.

They might have been able to do more with their launch because of, all of this shit that comes up with launches. Right? Scarcity, urgency, discounts, or other things that make it more enticing that just can’t be replicated in an evergreen scenario in this case.

So I think of the number of businesses that are huge, that lose all the time. Like, there’s constant losers going on, and that’s okay just like for VCs where they’re looking for one big win.

That’s the case oftentimes in all businesses. Right? You’re looking for one big win that keeps things going. TurboTax has April.

They have tax season in April. They’re not gonna sell anything the rest of the year. They try doing other things, etcetera, etcetera, but they’re gonna make all their money on this one thing, and that’s gotta be okay. That’s just the reality of some businesses and their products and their audience.

That doesn’t mean that’s always gonna be the case. It doesn’t even mean you can talk to your client about that, although you can, but it means you get to hear Abby and Caroline who said she can totally relate that this is normal.

So for your client to say no bueno and you to have that anxiety when they say that, your client, I would say, needs a bit of a reset here. And this is where if you’re talking as a consultant, not a doer, but a partner with them, then you can ask them why do they think this is performing as it is. And what what expectations did they have, Abby? Do you know what they expected?

I know their goal is to get to ten k a day, and at the moment, they’re on, like, three to five.

But yeah. I mean, like, I yeah. I hear what you’re saying. I guess I’m just kind of wondering, like I mean, it’s funny because I boxed Jessica, like, in tears when I got the scene where she was like, you just need to be more Jo. Like, what Jo doesn’t Jo wouldn’t think it’s her fault.

But, like, how do you my fault. Get that mindset, like, because I just, like, what I just think, like, maybe I’d write, like, a shitty hood. Maybe my puppy sucks. Like, how do you, like, how do you not think of those things? Or were you just born that way?

That I’m a psychopathic narcissist?

Possibly.

But but, no.

That’s what the retainer is for. I I know that we are not magicians, and that’s why I get mad when people say, like, at this always comes out for me this memory of someone told Neil Patel when he was sitting at an event. Oh, I could get this conversion rate up to twenty five percent. And when he hired me, he said that, and I started laughing, because I didn’t think anybody could be so foolish as to believe when somebody says that to you.

Like, what? You believed that? I got a bridge to sell you. Like, that’s so silly.

And so I think I just go into it with a bit more of a realistic expectation of what we’re here to do. We’re not magicians.

We’ve got all the right processes. We’re way smarter at this than anybody has ever been in the history of thinking about messaging. They have been guessing for the all of history. We’re finally doing something with this and trying to, like, take the best and work at it.

So I feel like that’s the that’s if there’s any magic, it’s that. It’s that we’re being more thoughtful than ever before, and it’s okay that you got it wrong. I’ve also seen an AB test that they lose all the time. All the time.

I’ve seen that winners still don’t get released because somebody internally didn’t like the copy.

So when you know that happens, you think, like, the best we can do is say I’m gonna put the best possible version out there the first time around, and it might be a breakthrough or it might be a bust, and that is what we’re setting ourselves up for. What we then do is optimize it. That’s all we can do, and I I feel good about that because I’ve had really good ideas that have flopped. I’ve had really good ideas that have been killer and won and done great things.

And I frankly choose to remember the good ones more than the bad ones, while also still remembering and, like, knowing that, yeah, I’ve also lost at this. They lost at this. You’ve lost at this. Everybody in the room has lost at this many times over, but we still keep growing our businesses because we still keep going back and doing it and trying again.

Make another really strong not a random guess. We’ve learned from our mistake, and then we move forward. And anybody, if you go to CXL live, you go to all of these events about conversion rate optimization, losers across the board. So many losers until you get to a win.

I have mentioned before, Spotify, their entire growth team had, like, one in twenty tests that would win. One in twenty. That’s bananas, but that’s the reality of it. So to me, I hear your clients saying, we wanna get to ten thousand dollars a day.

We’re only at five thousand dollars a day with this evergreen funnel.

No bueno, I’d show them to be like, what’s your fucking problem, man? This is amazing. We’re working at making it better.

What do you think the problem is? And ask them to share what they think the problem is with you, and you’ll hear no good ideas. If you do, cool. Then you consult with them on that.

But, yeah, I just you will be increasingly exposed to and this is where I don’t like working with course creators because all they’ve ever heard is you can get you can become a billionaire this way. Like, look at everything. You gotta spend more money on ads. You gotta spend a crap ton of money on ads.

You’re gonna need a sales team at some point. Like, all of this stuff that these micro course creators have been sold is, like, turning into little monsters out there. Like, they think everything should just be a cash machine, and it’s not. It’s not the reality of it.

SaaS doesn’t think that. That’s why I like SaaS so much. They want money, but they get that it’s a business. It’s not a cash machine.

All that rent, to say, I wouldn’t worry too much about it, Abby. I would keep raising your rates because you’re getting great results. Six sales that appeared out of nowhere in a week, that’s really, really good. Whether it’s for a forty nine dollar book or a five thousand dollar mastermind, that’s good. You’re doing good work, and your client needs to be brought a little bit more on board with what that looks like. And if they can’t, that’s more data for you to better refine your ICP.

You don’t wanna work with people who are going to pay you thirty thousand dollars for two funnels that make the money and they still say, hey. We need to meet and you feel anxious over that.

It’s not you. It’s not you. It may be your ICP, but I would say it’s not you. Of course, it’s not you. You know what you’re doing. You know that you know what you’re doing.

Right?

Sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah.

It’s all and you’re we’re all learning. Everybody is.

So yeah.

You will get there. Just keep surrounding yourself with people who are invoicing high and are not stressing about it. And, honestly, raise it again.

I would say go from thirty to fifty thousand, and see what happens then. I know it feels like you’ll be more anxious, but that we need to start in on the part of your skill set that allows you to be more of a consultant and not so much of a to me, I get a hierarchy when you’re talking that feels like you’re here and the client’s here, which makes sense, but it doesn’t facilitate you actually helping them grow because they’re more chirpy at you, and then you’re like, oh my gosh. I’m so sorry. And that’s not how are you going to come in and be an expert when they’re challenging the good results that you’re getting too? Does that make sense?

Yeah. No. That was very helpful. I think probably the main takeaway I I got from it as well is just further reinforcing, like, the need to refine my optimization package because I think if I’m literally going and selling them not on, like, you’re gonna get amazing results out of the gate and, like, they know that there’s gonna be an authorization retainer, it’s gonna take time, I think that will just be, like, really change things.

So Okay. Yeah. I’m good on that’s my next step. Thank you, Joe.

Optimization retainer. Good. Charge more for it. I know it’s a weird number now. It won’t be.

Two years from now, you’ll be like, man, I was giving that away. What was I doing? So trust me.

I know it’s like, oh, great. Trust you. No.

But for real, like, I I do.

I do. I do. I do.

I see I see where you’re going.

Okay?

Fair enough.

Cool. Awesome. Thanks, Abby.