Tag: talia

Guest Speaker Talia Wolf – Supercharge your CRO Skills

Supercharge Your CRO Skills

Transcript

So I’m, I’ve been tasked by Joe to talk to you about meaningful conversion optimization, and really just dig into how to do it the right way.

I’ve done I’ve been doing conversion optimization for really over a decade. I’ve known Joe for, jeez, like, thirteen, fourteen years now.

And we worked together on a handful of things.

And, really, the way my team and I approach conversion optimization is very different than the vast majority of CRO agencies, and that’s what I’m gonna be talking about today. So first thing I really wanna kinda dig into is the actual CRO process. So, I know some of you are just getting to know what conversion optimization is.

But, normally, when we talk about conversion optimization, we will see that there’s, like, a three step process. You first have to find the leak in the funnel. So there is the problem. You can go into Google Analytics, and it will tell you where the problem exists.

And then you have to create a new variation to optimize, and then you need to launch an experiment. And this can be on your landing pages, on your emails, on your website.

And and, like, launching an experiment kind of similar like finding the leak in the funnel is more or less simple if you have the right tools and if you have the right people. But the biggest black box in commercial optimization is creating a new variation.

It’s just thrown out there like, create a new variation, and it will be fine. But that’s like the hardest part of conversion optimization. And what we find is that most companies end up testing very specific elements, like reducing load time, adding an exit pop up, changing the call over call to action button, removing steps in the funnel, changing the headline. So really just moving elements on the page or changing them and thinking, okay.

This is just gonna work. It’s fine. And hopefully, you know, that this is gonna help. And essentially, what this is is just changing one element on the page.

So you’re taking your page, let’s say it’s a home page, and you’re changing one element and hoping it will work, and it really rarely does. And even if it does increase conversions, what have you even learned from it? What have you been what are you able to do with this information? Can you scale it?

Can you learn from this in a way that will allow you to then take these learnings and use them for your emails or use them for landing page optimization?

Normally, not.

So really, what we end up doing is finding that we are on this hamster wheel. And I and I really like talking about this hamster wheel because, this is what the really something everyone’s on. Right? We start testing random stuff because we don’t really know what we’re testing.

And then we think, you know what? Maybe our competitors know what they’re doing. So we go to our competitors’ websites, and we copy them. And then we end up sounding like everyone else and looking like everyone else, and that’s not working. So we look for software and tools that can help us fix this, and then you test random stuff again. So because you you don’t really know how to use the tools.

So, really, in conversion optimization, there is a big problem. There is a flaw, because this is how everyone’s approaching it. And, really, it’s because we’re all looking at graphs and numbers, and we’re trying to segment our audience into behavioral pieces.

You know, where we say, okay. Things aren’t converting. What should we do? Let’s go to Google Analytics and figure it out. And we can see that we’re talking to a certain age and a certain geographical location, and maybe it’s a certain gender, but we don’t really know what to do next.

And the thing is that in order to really increase conversions, you have to understand something far more important.

Number one is that conversion optimization isn’t about changing elements on the page. It’s about solving people’s problems.

If you control people’s problems on a website or in any page, you will increase your conversions. And that is really different than what most approach look like because, really, most approaches are about, okay, find the problem, fix it quickly, maybe change something about it, and it will increase conversions. But, really, that is not what conversion optimization is about. What you really wanna do is understand people’s problems. You wanna understand what’s what their pains are, what their challenges are, and translate that into a better experience.

And this is really where the emotional targeting framework comes in, which is a framework that I built, I don’t know, twelve, thirteen, fourteen years ago and have been optimizing ever since. So, I’ve tested this on thousands of landing pages, hundreds of businesses, and it really is the art and science of understanding how people make decisions.

And the reason we try to figure this out is because if you can influence people’s decision making process, that means you’re going to increase conversions. So you have to understand how people make decisions, not if they are male or female, not if they’re thirty five or twenty five. What you really need to understand is who they are, how they make decisions, what motivates them in life, what pains them in life, and how they really make a decision about whether to buy something or not.

So this takes us away from the conversation of age and geolocation and title and gender and browser devices.

What we want to really think about is why do people buy from us. Now most companies already say, well, you know, the reason people buy from us is because we have a great we have greater technology or features or pricing.

But I really am here to tell you that this is not why people buy.

Really, there is these are the things that will once they’ve decided to buy from you, they will look at and decide if that makes sense or not. But this isn’t why people buy. In fact, no one actually cares about what you’re selling.

And in order to figure out why people buy, you have to understand how people make decisions. So as I said, this is how we think people make decisions. We think that people go for this elaborate process of thinking about the pros and the cons and does this work? Doesn’t it work? Should I choose this? Should I not? And then suddenly, I will reach a rational decision, and it will all make sense.

Psychologists, scientists, the biggest brands in the world like Nike and Lego all know that this is not how people make decisions.

Really, this is.

Everything in life, every decision that we make is based on emotion.

We attach an emotional reason to it. We have different emotional triggers and drivers that will decide whether we buy something or not. And later on, we will rationalize it. So if you ask someone why they buy from you, they will tell you, you know, it’s your features, it’s your technology, it’s the solution that you’re selling.

But it was an emotional decision. Our brain is quick. It’s intuitive. It’s sharp. It makes decisions based on our emotions.

In fact, even Antonio Damasio, who is a professor of psychology, ran some really interesting, research. One of them was on people that have brain damage. And what he discovered is though these people that have specific brain damage, which was tied to could not feel any emotion, they could go about their lives more or less the same. So these are people that could couldn’t feel any emotion.

But when he looked and he studied them, he figured out, okay. These people are more or less going about their lives as usual, but they had one big thing, and that is they couldn’t make any decision in life at all, not even what sandwich they should eat. And this is where he said, you know, we’re not thinking machines that feel. We are feeling machines that think.

And this is crucial because without emotion, we lack the ability to make decision. This isn’t something that’s fluffy and cute and nice to think about. It’s actual science. If there isn’t any emotion, we can’t make the decision.

So when you’re thinking about why people buy from you, you need to step back and not think about, okay. It’s these features or AI or technology.

It’s what people are actually thinking about and how they feel. They’re thinking about, will I get a career advancement? Will people see me as the go to person in the office? Will I feel more confident? Will I get promoted?

You know, will this make me a better a better mom, a better walker, a better whatever?

Will they like me more? All these decisions are based on how we want to feel, how we feel right now, and how we want to feel off to finding the solution.

So emotional targeting really is a framework that helps us understand those motivators, why people what their emotions are and how we can tap into those and really help them make a better decision for themselves.

So let’s quickly kind of review, this framework and how we use promotional targeting to increase conversions for our clients.

So there is a few steps in our process. Number one is running meaningful CRO research, and I will get into this in a moment, but really diving into who are our customers.

How do they feel? How do they want to feel?

What are the things that are really stopping them from converting? What are the things that are keeping them up at night?

Then we run an emotional resonance audit, which means once we’re geared with these insights of who our customers truly are, we can then audit our pages, our website, our emails, and it’s so much easier to know what the problem is. If before we went into Google Analytics and we found out that the home page was a problem and we went to the home page and we looked at it, the the actual angle we’d be thinking about is, okay, best practices say you should have you shouldn’t have a carousel or you should have your CTA above the fold. You would be thinking about it as best practices and what do other websites do.

But if you run your customer research beforehand when you go to your website, it’s so much easier to see the problem, what’s not working, and why things aren’t resonating, and why people aren’t connecting on an emotional level. So once we’ve done that, we optimize our pages with emotion using copy, designing, x, and other methods that I will show, and, of course, running meaningful experiments. And this kind of goes, in a kind of circular motion where we’re constantly testing and running more research for our clients and running more experiments.

So step number one is really meaningful CRU research designed to uncover the real why.

Here are some of the things that you want to uncover when you’re thinking about this research. What pain does my customer feel before finding a solution?

What are their emotional triggers that drive their decision making? What are their hesitations and concerns? And how do they want to feel after finding a solution? This is different questions that are more unique and really do go into the core of people’s emotional drivers of why they buy things.

Once you have, answered those questions with your research, you can then audit your pages strategically.

And you can ask yourself questions like, can people immediately see the why and what’s in it for them?

Are you incorporating the emotional outcomes that prospects care about? Are you using words and descriptions that prospects relate to? And what aren’t you saying that people need to see, feel, and read on the page? And you can only answer these questions when you have real meaningful customer insights.

When you ask people why they signed up or why they did something and you’re getting these shallow answers, you won’t be able to actually answer this. And these are the most crucial ones because when you can answer these, you’ll know exactly what copy to choose. You’ll know what images to choose, what colors to choose for your pages. So each of these questions is really important in order to identify what’s not working, what isn’t resonating on an emotional level, what isn’t connecting for people.

So you’ve done your research. You have audited your pages strategically. And next, what you wanna be doing is optimizing your pages with emotion.

And that means everything that you do, in your copy, in your design, in every single element of your customer journey. You want to make it about them. You’ll notice that most companies make it about themselves. You’ll see sentences like the only one solution for x or powered by AI or we we’re the only people that do this. It’s mostly when you look at coffee, especially in b two b companies, but also in ecommerce and any other industries, you’ll see that most of the messaging is about the company and the solution itself. But with emotional targeting, you want to make everything on the page about them.

You want to tell the stories and use words that they resonate with. You want to make sure that your messaging is connected to every stage of their awareness to ensure that the visuals that you’re using amplify your message. I know everyone in the room is a copywriter, but imagery is what helps amplify the message that you were writing. So it’s not enough just to write good copy. You have to be able to attach meaningful visuals and images and colors to your messaging so that when people look at them, your message resonates with them and amplifies that message.

And, of course, you need to ensure that emotion is consistent throughout the entire page, the entire website, and not just a page header.

We’ve done this even on menus and navigations for websites where you connect and resonate on an emotional level with, prospects.

I’ll show you an example. So, really, once you’ve done your research and you have audited your website or your page from a strategic level, and you have started to create new variations with your copy and your design that are geared with emotion, then you want to stop running experiments.

Emotion based tests. This means that if we’re looking at Teamwork, one of our clients, they have a comparison page. The idea here is you’re not going to simply change the headline. You’re not simply just going to try and change the CTA, but what you’re trying to do is create better comparison page. And, really, comparison pages are super important because whether you want to admit it or not, anyone coming into your website or your client’s website is comparing them to their competitor. And you want to create pages that actually help people make decisions.

But how can you create that? How can you create a really good comparison page if you don’t understand what the criteria is? If you go to most comparison pages, and this was the same for Teamwork, they had this header on their home on their comparison page, and below that was a simple table. Just showed the different features that Bryte had and the different features that Teamwork had and just comparison between those. But that doesn’t answer critical questions that their customers cared about. So when we did our own research with Teamwork and when we tried to go deeper in understanding, okay, why would people choose, Teamwork like, we really were able to identify different critical things for people, like the fact that they wanted it to be that they wanted a project management solution to really be geared for the kind of work that they do.

Teamwork’s ICP are agencies.

They’re people that do client work, and we wanted to show anyone that came to this page that was con basically comparing Teamwork to Wrike that this was the best platform to do client work on. If you run client work or you’re an agency, you want to use Teamwork for project management.

And that meant that we would include all information that they cared about, every single piece. It was about the fact that it was designed for client work. It was about the fact that when we did research and we interviewed people that switched from Wrike or were just looking for different tools, they noticed that they would get constant upsells. So even though other tools looked cheaper, Teamwork was actually cheaper at the at the end of it.

So actually calling out the different things that Zwipe did in a in in a way that didn’t help customers and adding so much more copy and so much more visuals and a lot more information for, these prospects helped them make a better decision, and that led to a fifty four percent increase in free trials. And it really was interesting to see because this client did not want such a long page, not want all these visuals, did not believe in this approach. But once we clearly said, hey. If you run client work, these are the things you care about.

You care about the fact that this tool was built by people that understand client work. You care about the fact that other teams like you are using it. You care about upsells, and you care about different emotional triggers, and here they all are on the page for you to make a decision.

We did the same with their home page. So the original home page was at last easy to use project management software. You want outgrow outgrow.

Literally, I could change the logo to Asana Wrike Monday, and you wouldn’t know what product this is. There was nothing in here that was speaking specifically to customers.

But once we changed it to one new client work in the OMB platform that’s actually built for it and had specific, visuals below the fold and also, bullet points that focused on the kind of warmth that they care about, we were able to increase their conversions.

So mostly what I came in to talk to you very briefly today is about starting to think in everything that you do about emotional targeting, about understanding the emotional drivers of your prospects.

Instead of a few right now trying to think about, okay, how can I optimize, a page? How can I optimize an email? I want you to flip the process.

Start by conducting meaningful customer research about your customers to uncover those emotional triggers, to uncover those emotional drivers, and only then audit your funnels and your pages and your emails to identify what’s not working rather than trying to do the opposite.

Then you can optimize your copy and design with emotion, and you can run meaningful experiments. So this was quite quick, but just a bit of a taste into what this framework is all about.

This QR code leads to our checklist, which will give you all the strategic questions that we ask when we, audit a website strategically.

So I think that’s it.

Thanks, Talia. That was awesome.

A lot of good stuff packed into it.

Twenty four minutes. That’s awesome.

Cool. We also have more training this afternoon for, the intensive. So there’s a bunch of stuff on, deck today for Copy School Pro. Today, we are finally talking about something I’ve been hinting at for the last little bit, and that is sell by chat.

Sell by chat, there’s a lot we can say to get into that. When we worked on the sixteen by twenty three lesson a little bit ago, part of that was part of sell by chat where you’re trying to open conversations, especially in that case after they’ve gone, a little bit cold or we just haven’t heard from people in a while. And maybe on their end, it’s still warm, but on your end, it’s feeling a little cold. So today, though, we’re going to talk about brand new followers and how to open conversations with them so that you can nurture them to a close. Now we’re gonna talk all the way through closing them, in the framework I’m gonna walk you through today.

But you won’t always close them as easily or quickly as is shown here. So we’re gonna walk through, like, these nine parts, but that could happen over a six week period. So or eight weeks or one week or one hour. It can vary. Right? It depends on who you’re talking to and what they’re looking for.

So and it also helps to have a lot of practice with this stuff too. So keep that in mind. As a reminder, we are diving in, questions. You’ll come off mute for any questions you’d like to ask. If you would like to be on camera, that’s perfect and highly encouraged so people can see each other, say, hey. Get to know each other’s faces.

After this walk through, we’re going to have a q and a session. That’s an ask me anything. It can be directly tied to what we’re talking about today, or it can get into other questions you have as a freelancer looking to make more money with happy clients.

Make sure when you ask a question, you always start with a win, a win of any kind. We just wanna focus on things that are good and getting better because it can be very challenging, to work for yourself, and, it’s easy to focus on some of the harder stuff when there’s a lot of good stuff happening too. Alright. I am going to start sharing my screen.

You will soon first, you’re gonna see the Zoom background, then you’re gonna see my calendar, and now we’re going to see that. That’s what we’re looking for. This is our, worksheet for today. Moving a few more things around. Alright. Cool. So, again, this is sell by chat where the idea is that you have one on one conversations with people in order to get them to buy, just like old school salespeople have always done, except we’re doing it over the phone and in some cases then, of course, leading to having conversations like this over Zoom.

But the idea here for today is to start opening conversations manually on your phone. In, the intensive freelancing, next week, we’re getting into a bunch of social stuff, including ManyChat.

So we’ll talk more about that later. Today, we are talking about a tool that is very, very easy to use.

We have a person who’s just joined our team to do sell by chat as her full job, and that really just means opening conversations with new followers and nurturing them to do something. So she is on her phone all the time, and whenever we get a new fall or she immediately pings them and starts working through what we’re gonna talk through today. This works for LinkedIn as well. So if you’re like, I don’t do people can connect with you.

Where it doesn’t work, yet is, like, YouTube because that’s there’s just no mechanism there to start, like, one on one conversations with people. Maybe Google has a plan for that. I don’t know. But it does make us think twice about spending too much of our resources on YouTube, and I’d encourage you to have the same kind of thought when you’re trying to figure out where your Instagram or, sorry, where your social focus should be for us.

It’s currently Instagram, and here’s why. What we’re gonna talk through today is why.

So this is called open with boards when you’re bored because boards is a tool. I’m going to show you the tool. It is a tool that replaces your keyboard. So when you’re actually in Instagram or WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger or wherever you may be, where people are following you or chatting with you, it actually just replaces your keyboard.

So you go in and someone has started a conversation here. That’s our chat person just did that. You hit to reply to the message, and then you can hit the little globe icon below to get you into something called boards. You can see that here showing a little bit in there.

My but this showing on the screen is what that brings up. So if I click boards, and it’s a whole process to walk you through that, but I actually have put a page together for you to see in today’s, document so you can go into what boards really does.

We have you’ll have just basically really quick, conversations with people that are ready to go. So here’s an example.

When somebody is following us, is a new as a new follower, our person, her name is Maddie, our person who, opens a conversation with them goes into boards, they see this. You can see that there are multiple boards off to the side here. We can talk through those if you’d like to, and I’m happy to.

But what they’re going to start with is this one under board for freelancing school and copy school professional candidates is what we called it. So, basically, any freelancer who reaches out to us, we default to believing everybody’s a freelancer. You’ll default to believing whatever it is that you believe, and we’ll get into that for your clients. But they’ve got new leads as a folder. That’s a folder you can go into where there’s all sorts of stuff in there. Then they have warm or good leads, like, oh, we’ve started to move along in the conversation.

And there’s also hot leads, People who are ready to go, and it’s time to just, like, hop on a call and have a conversation. Now those are folders to go into, but this is where she starts very often with this. First name, last name. So Joanna Weeb exclamation point.

That’s the first thing she hits that on her keyboard. She replaces it with first name, last name. Boards isn’t quite that smart yet to do that. So she has to manually do that, but she always knows that’s what it is.

Then the second one, thanks for commenting on my post. She hits enter after that. Always hitting enter. Always hitting enter really quick, snappy messages, and then appreciate it.

That’s how she opens up a lot of conversations. There are other ways to open up conversations like, hi. Thanks for the follow and support. How did you stumble across my stuff?

And, hey. Are you here for the bids or do you have a freelancing goal? Those are the three most common ways that we open a conversation, those three with first name, last name, and then these followed by those other two that I just showed you. We’re playing with different ones all the time.

I’m not gonna get too deeply into that. We can talk about it later. What I wanna do is just show you what boards is and why I say you should be on boards when you’re bored. Because when you’re standing in a line, when you’re sitting in front of whatever you’re watching at night, when you’re even just on a treadmill and you have a choice.

You can stare at a screen in front of you that has, like, some sports recap on it at the gym when you’re like, I really don’t care. And if you’re not listening to an audiobook or even if you are and you’ve heard it a million times, you can hop on your phone and be welcoming new followers on LinkedIn, again, on Facebook, wherever this thing may be that you’re actually focusing.

When you’re bored, that’s a signal for you to hop on your phone and start interacting with the people who follow you. So we’re gonna get into why and how that works. But the idea is, of course, to open conversations with prospects that we can close. Now this is working incredibly well for people selling all kinds of packages to clients, but know that it’s happening with people selling packages to clients, by which I mean, it can happen for you very, very easily.

One of the coaching programs I’m in, this is a bit of an ex like, a out of control, result. But after nurturing a lead for a couple months, this one person, not the coach, one of the students in this group coaching program, was able to close a twenty million dollar project. It was a long sales cycle. Don’t get me wrong.

And all sorts of stuff. I’m not saying you’re gonna close a twenty million dollar project. What I’m saying is even the most ridiculously large projects are, like, waiting to be closed to open, nurture, and close just with people who are on Instagram.

That’s it. Really straightforward stuff. You can close twenty thousand dollar projects this way. You can close two hundred dollar like, let’s hop on a call right now and have a quick back and forth to to get through your strategy or whatever it might be. You could close all sorts of things on these calls.

You should, of course, obviously be focus focusing on your specialized project. That’s what you’re trying to get everybody into. But if you have a first thing such as let’s hop on a call, we’ll brainstorm some ideas, here’s a link to buy my time and book my time, etcetera. Cool.

Cool. Cool. That’s what we’re talking about. That’s what we’re thinking about. So I know a lot of people who here use Instagram, chat on Instagram, or, like, good idea, but it’s not for me.

Try it.

Try it. It’s working for us, and I recommend that you get cracking on it. So you wanna install boards on your phone and, of course, in your browser because you can do stuff with that. I’ve got it up here in my browser.

You’re basically using it to replace your keyboard. That’s it. And only when you need to replace your keyboard with prewritten texts.

Always be on your phone. You already are. So now do work on it. So you can open with all new followers or commenters as soon as possible and nurture them night and day.

Boards and something called ManyChat work really well together. You’re going to want to use both. We’ll talk about ManyChat later. Boards is the quickest way to just get going.

I already said, hit send after every thought, every sentence, no paragraphs. Right? Like, you’re a teenager, just get in there and go, and show engagement and responsiveness. So you might start with scripted stuff, and then you wanna make sure you’re listening to them and having a conversation with them without falling into the friend zone.

This is really critical. When you are somebody who is an expert in the thing that you do, even when it feels like you’re really accessible and, like, oh, wow. Johnson’s on the other side of this chat. I can’t believe I’m talking to the copywriter that I wanna hire.

I wanna, like, chat with Johnson about, like, where he lives and what he’s doing and how business is going for him. And you have to be careful not to fall into that friend zone because you’re not here to just, like, hey. Let’s hang and talk about shit. You’re here to actually move them through getting you on board with, like, hiring you.

Okay? So here’s how we do that.

Nine parts as I promised.

Open a conversation.

We’re talking about opens with boards. Qualify that person. Are are they right for you? Are they a good fit?

If they’re not, you’re allowed to just bring that conversation to a close. You don’t owe anybody anything. Just make sure that you’re closing it off. Right?

Like, in a nice way. Like, wow. That’s so cool, and then just leave it.

Convert to call is the third and final step. In most cases, you’ll want to convert to call. Everybody in Coffee School Pro should be trying to get somebody on a call so they can have a good conversation with them. Alright.

So that’s the basic. Those are the three steps that we’re working through. Then under each of those, in this order, first, we want to appear to them. Right?

So that’s that thing where, hey. Thanks for the follow. How’d you stumble on my stuff? Or the other one I showed you, which is first, last, Joanna Weeb, Johnson’s Bank.

Who else we have here?

Jessica Noel. Whatever it could be. Thanks for commenting on my post. Appreciate it. Then they reply, and then you have an engaging moment.

This is the open this is where you know something about them. So if you see if you go look at them, you see, oh, they’re VP of marketing at Audio Technica. Okay. Cool.

Audio Technica is cool. I have your mic or something.

How long have you been there? Whatever that could be, but you’re really just starting to open a conversation that’s not about them as necessarily people, but rather as business people. So you’re in business, they’re in business, you’re going to talk about business. They’re probably not following you for shits and giggles.

Right? They’re probably following you because they liked something you had to share about your area of expertise, and they’re like, that’s very interesting. I wanna know more. So you’re allowed to start talking with them about that stuff.

And I wouldn’t even say you should prequalify anyone at this point. Everybody who comes into your Instagram gets these messages.

Now if it comes down to this and they haven’t replied to your appear, if you’ve said, like, hey. Thanks for commenting or, hey. Thanks for the follow. Appreciate it. And they don’t say anything back to you, you don’t have to continue on. Like, you can just stop there. And if they come back with something like, totally.

Hey.

What supplements do you use? And you can tell they’re about to, like, try to sell you supplements. You can just, like, casually fail on that conversation so you don’t have to go here. But we’re assuming things are actually going along well. You’re not attracting people who just want to sell you supplements.

So you can move forward with that. So just, like, connect with them. It could be as simple as love your Instagram, or how long have you been in email marketing or both. Right?

We’re just trying to really advance the conversation toward where we want them to go, which is getting on a phone call with you. Then this is an important one, and this I learned from one of my coaches. We didn’t even realize we were doing it, and then we felt really good that we were doing it. And ours was, are you an in house, copywriter, or are you freelance?

So this is where are you x or y? So that they just reply with one of the two things, and you wanna know what that thing is so that you can take the conversation to the next part which is qualifying them. So if it’s this, that, do you have an email team, or do you use freelancers?

Do you run email, or do you have a VP of life cycle? Whatever that could be. Right? And I’m saying email here, but whatever your example is for your situation, the point is, this is the point at which we give them a this or that.

Are you this or are you that? Do you want this or do you want that? Whatever it could be. Right?

Then we’ve opened the conversation. We’ve got them talking about work.

Don’t worry if you’re like, oh, no. They’re gonna know that I’m trying to sell them.

Yeah.

It’s okay. It’s okay when you go on to a you go into a store and someone wants to help you get something.

We can’t assume everybody’s a browser, and we can’t assume that you’re going to serve everybody who’s here to browse and just, like, hang up. You’re allowed to sell. So if anything’s getting in the way for you here where you’re like, it feels inauthentic because I’m pretending to show interest, and what I really wanna do is just make money off them. One, just actually show interest then. Like, just be interested.

And then from there, don’t worry. Don’t worry too much with how it’s coming off. You’re still learning this stuff. You’ll get to a place where you feel, like, really good about this conversation that’s getting them what they want.

If you are sharing your specialization and your thought leadership and who you are on Instagram or wherever you do this, then they’re responding to that. So you’ve already established good things that make them want to follow you or comment on your stuff. You’re allowed to take it to the next level. You’re allowed to assume that they’re ready for some level of project engagement with you.

Okay.

Qualifying comes next. This is where we want to identify the gap. So this, that, and the gap are two really important parts in here that you wanna be careful not to just kind of, like, glaze over. The gap is where they are able to identify this is what I want, but this is what’s happening, and they can see there’s a gap.

I want to make twenty thousand dollars a month. I’m making eight thousand dollars a month. So there’s a twelve thousand dollar gap in there. Do I have a plan to get to close that gap?

If it’s due more of the same, is it can I reasonably expect to close that gap? So, no, we wanna make sure that they’re acknowledging the gap between what they have and what they want. How are your emails selling right now? Where would you like them to be?

Ask both of those in the same line. How are your ads performing right now, and how do you wish they would perform? What’s your cost to acquire a customer right now? Now?

What do you wish it would be or what do you believe it should be?

Those sorts of things. Okay? So we’re trying to establish and this is again going to be tied to your specialization, the thing that you do, the offer that you are trying to eventually get them to say yes to. You’re qualifying them. If they’re like, oh, well, we don’t really do emails.

Oh, cool. Then you bail. Right? So just know that that’s what we’re working through.

Then comes the obstacle.

So this is like there’s different ways you can go through from this point on.

I like the obstacle. So here’s the gap, and then what’s getting in the way. So what’s getting in the way of your emails performing you or what’s getting in the way of you going from eight thousand dollars to twenty thousand dollars? What have you tried so far?

And And that’s where they start self diagnosing the problem. Well, I’m not really sure. I’ve read all these books, or I bought this book and haven’t read it. Have you thought of reading the book?

Those kinds of things. Right? You can talk through and they’re like, well, I just don’t believe it’s the book.

I think what I really need to do is x, and I just wish I had somebody I could talk to about this or whatever it could be.

Right? And then we can get into offering the help. That’s interesting. I’ve got some ideas. Do you wanna talk?

And very quickly, moving that to a call. Very quickly. As soon as we get into offering help, we’re offer help might actually need to be over in the convert to call side of things because you’re ready there to start moving them to hopping on a call with you. And in this situation, you do need to be ready to have your, like, to be ready to hop on your audio on your phone because you’re Instagramming them.

So you might as well call. Right? Just hop on a phone call with them. Great.

What’s your best number? How can I reach you? Are you free right now? And if they’re like, oh, no.

I’m at work right now. I can’t talk right now. Like, I have a meeting I’m going into. No worries.

Let me get you my calendar link. Or if they’re like, here’s my number score. You’ve done very, very well. Excellent.

Get on that freaking call where you can close them there. But what we wanna do in a lot of cases, they’ll be like, I’m busy because they’re scared to get on a call with you. And that’s where you’re like, no worries. Let me get you my calendar link.

Here’s my Calendly, and then you wait.

Hey. Did that work for you? Did that link work for you? And you wait for them to reply with, yeah.

I got it. Or, yep. I actually, I couldn’t find any time that works for me. And then you can go further.

Okay? If there’s well, what time does work for you? Are you free in thirty minutes? Are you free tomorrow at two PM?

I’m in Pacific time. Where are you at? So you’re just now working to get them to say yes to a call.

That’s the whole thing. It happens on social media, in DMs, privately, but that’s that’s really the objective. That’s all you’re working toward. So what you can do with this is brainstorm your own opens, your own qualifying questions, and that’s, like, all of the stuff, the gap.

Start writing all that stuff down and then converting, of course. I have this under advanced because it’s pretty advanced for most freelancers to start doing this, but the actual techniques are really, really simple. Go into boards. Start setting these up as really basic, like, you’ve got them all right here.

All three of these. So first, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. You can just put numbers on them and just be ready to hit those numbers. Right?

That’s it. That’s the whole thing. It’s one more great way where if you are putting content out into the world, you deserve to do something with that. You don’t just put it out there and, like, hope everybody’s really happy with you because you can’t pay bills with happiness.

What you want to do is make sure that you are converting, converting them to a call, and then we can talk more about what happens in those calls. That’s where you’ll the diagnostic and other things that we’ve talked about already. Cool?

Cool. There’s chat here.

Who chatted what? Oh, good. Thank you.

Questions.

Where are you at?

You ready to go? Ready to do it?

Scared to do it? I’m not, back on, I’m not running my socials again yet, but this, this is really and I’m I’m is it next week we’re gonna do ManyChat?

Next week in, the intensive freelancing, we’ll be talking about ManyChat and showing it, but not, doing, like, an intensive training on it because it’s, like, really deep. Although, I will direct you to training on it. Yeah.

Okay. Cool. Yeah. But, no, this is, this is amazing and exciting. I’m just not I’m not on socials back on yet, but, it’s really cool.

Cool. Awesome. Jessica, Caroline, anything to add?

I have a question if that’s alright. Well, as do it.

Okay. So I don’t I always get myself in these predicaments.

But, as you were speaking, I was like, gosh. You would I I have a right in Maine, you know, my company’s name as an Instagram face, all the things. Right? But then when I started my newsletter, I named it the holiday win because I wanted it to be really clear that it was about seasonal and holiday sales.

So then I got all the socials related to that. And now sitting here going, okay. Where am I building a brand? So I was just wondering with this because I’m assuming it’s all through one, you know, like, one account in Instagram or something.

You know? So I was just curious what your thoughts were on that.

Yeah.

I mean, there’s definitely no point in spreading yourself thin, unless you have, like, a massive team of multiple people who can run your social. I would just just merge it or just choose, like, what to do there.

But you gotta choose one. There’s gotta be just one account.

Can’t be both, which might mean giving up everybody from right in Maine just, like, posting on there, like, hey.

I’m moving over to this now, and here’s why.

And then you can do a bunch of stuff on here’s why you’re focusing, and that will help move them over and under and help them understand why they should follow you over at the holiday win. Okay. Alright. Thank you.

Yeah. I’d make it content, though. Though. Like, it’s cool that you’re making this business decision, and you can be really transparent with that and, like, share it on social.

Okay.

Cool. Awesome. Alright.

Good. Anybody else have any questions?

Are we wrapping up early today?

Oh, no. Sorry. I thought oh, go ahead, Johnson.

Are we ready to dive into business questions? Remember, a win first. Awesome.

Well, I’ll let go Jessica go because I I don’t I don’t I don’t know. I have a win. Okay.

I think it’ll win.

I have a list, Johnson.

Are you sure?

K. Yeah.

No problem.

Win, which is actually connected to one of my questions as well. So I had a ecommerce SaaS company reach out. They’re doing a master class on copywriting.

So the win is a compliment that they’re seeking out me, I guess, as a speaker.

But my question is when I followed up, it’s sure. It’s copywriting and all that, but it’s a lot of things it’s not even close to my specialization.

It’s actually something I don’t.

So it’s store your basically, your brand story and the narrative and the messaging around your brand and all that, so it’s big. And then the time allotted is actually quite small, in my opinion, to go deep on that. But on top of it, then I’m also seeing they’re going, this is really not in my mind, I guess, not directly connected to what I wanna do or any offer I have.

And it does sound like the audience, while it is ecommerce brands, it’s I’m it sounds like it’s gonna be a lot of start ups, which isn’t really probably my most ideal customer. But I guess my my question is, off of that, should I say yes anyway and just do as much as I can or spend that time that I will I would have to put in to make it good, making my own authority content on something that is directly related.

I think that you may be able to do both k. Unless they say no. So what I would have you pitch them on have you said, like, oh, I don’t do brand story. I can connect with someone who does if your audience really wants it. What I do that I think your audience will go bananas for is help them get more out of the people the customers they acquire with a discount.

If they say, oh, no. No. Thank you. Then that’s what’s weird for one. It’s a virtual summit, it sounds like.

Yes. Yep. Is they got room.

They got room to put you in there for something else. Just like I would say, no. But I’ll do this other thing for you and just, like, pitch that. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Alright.

So that was question one. Johnson, you wanna jump in? Because I have more.

Yeah. So I’ll yes.

Well, it’s not really a win, but, I have a client. I I mentioned this in the, the CSP Slack, but, I have a client. He does NetSuite rescues if you’re familiar with that. I wasn’t. But, it’s the the projects are big big money, but he’s a he’s a small kind of small team. So he’s probably not gonna be able to do more than about ten or twelve a year.

But he’s going from kind of in house to freelance or agency and, just in the process of finishing up his website.

And so the the kind of win is that, I’m the business needs, regular money coming in. I’ve just brought on a, a kind of a junior, content writer slash copywriter who is gonna be filling a a few different roles, but I need to pay her. I want to be secure that we have, know that we’ve got money to pay her, so that I can fully invest in her training. So I’ve I’ve come up with this, pitch for a initially, it’s just a LinkedIn retainer, which is this is obviously, like, not this isn’t where I wanna be going. This isn’t really what I wanna be doing. But I do know LinkedIn, and I think this is pretty easily systematisable.

And I think a lot of the work can be done by this new hire. So my time will remain free. And hopefully, we’ll be generating some income that can be used to do all this the more important stuff. So, it’s kind of actually around that is because I’m looking at I’m looking at, you know, you know, I’m looking at I’m building my list of, of people to reach out to to offer whiskey and other gifts, so that I can talk to them about their, their pains with the customer life cycle.

I was looking on SparkToro for, like, email, customer life cycles. There’s, like, no results. No there’s no doesn’t seem like there’s much there.

So my question for you is is just, where can is there where can I keep I’ve looked every I I I was looking for a place to to learn more about it? The the the only course that I could find the the top rated course on Google was a guy who made it, like, twelve years ago. Doesn’t he’s not even a copywriter.

I don’t it’s the oldest web page in the world. And so, I think I’m just you know, and I know email, and I I’m starting to get a good understanding of this, and I almost feel like I could, make a pretty I mean, I feel like I have a pretty good I could make a pretty good go at it. But in terms of learning the skill, beyond doing ten x emails and you know?

Do you do you is there anyone that you would recommend to to to look to, who specializes in this?

No. Actually, it used to be Val Geisler. She was the right person to talk to about this sort of thing, just emails for SaaS.

There are other people who do it.

Sophia Lee comes to mind. I just don’t know that she teaches anything anywhere.

I mean, this is the kind of stuff that I mean, the good signal here is it’s pretty blue ocean.

So there’s no big fear that it’s filled with competition, unless those yeah.

So, no, there’s really not what I would say that you most likely need to do is research by talking to VP’s marketing, CEOs, CMOs, and people who are looking to hire someone. So I’d go look at, like, what do job descriptions for life cycle marketer or life cycle email or VP life cycle or whatever? What are they? What are they calling for?

What are they asking for? And that becomes, like, your new social media. Like, every bullet is what you talk about now, and then you make sure that that gets in front of people. But I think there’s the people I know who have done good emails for SaaS always end up, doing what most freelancers do, which is now I also do web pages for SaaS.

Now I also do this. Now I also do that, or going in house, which is the most likely route for that’s where Val went to. She vanished in house and then came out without the same level of authority, sadly, that she had going in, and that she could have built out on her own. So there’s not a lot out there.

Because I I the thing is I I I want to start talking about it. I’m Yeah. Good. I love you know, I I mean, I didn’t love doing the LinkedIn, content, but I it was good.

It was it was it was good. And so I wanna get back to it, but I just obviously, I don’t feel like I have the I don’t have the experience yet to to speak to to even really know the the the types of content that that would be attracting their my ideal lead. So that I think that’s where this question is coming from. I feel like it’s very vague.

But, yeah, I I I just Your question is where can you learn this stuff.

Right? Yeah.

Kind yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And then the answer is nowhere.

What? The answer is it’s email for SaaS. It’s just people who have SaaS companies that can afford you will call it life cycle.

That’s the thing. So if you search life cycle email, it doesn’t come up, probably because the right people who know all about it aren’t making content on it. They’re just looking for that. So they, like, their board mentions it to them.

Like, hey. How are we doing on life cycle? And they’re like, yeah. Super good. And then they go put together VP life cycle job posting.

So that’s the kind of, like, start by searching email for SaaS, and then follow the really clever stuff, like the really interesting things, not general email stuff.

Okay. Okay. And then I once I start to identify those things that people are caring about, once I’ve spoken to one of these people on the lists that I’m building, then I’ll have a better idea of what content to target to them. Right?

Well and just start right now too. Right? Like, you don’t need a perfect list, and then you submit that to the Instagram gods, and they go, yes. It’s approved. You may do this. It just you just start. So just start.

Just start posting it. I would I’m, like, just honestly, I know it sounds dumb.

Just go because one thing I do think about is I have about I I have maybe, five to six months of content I can repost from LinkedIn. It’s all heavy story based stuff. It’s all carousel, so it’s ready to go basically for Instagram. But, obviously, it’s it’s it’s more general.

It’s more general copywriting conversion persuasion, content.

We I mean, I guess now that I’m saying it loud, that that’s obviously gotta be better than doing nothing. So I should just do that. Okay. Cool.

Please do something.

Ideally, don’t do a thing that will lead leads to say, hey. Can we hire you for this if you don’t want to do it or if it’s not part of what you do anymore? Because now you have to get really good at saying no, and that’s a whole other skill set. Right? Like yeah.

And the answer happens. That’s gonna be okay. Yeah. Alright. Cool. Thank you, Jo.

Sure. Alright. Jessica, do you have more questions?

Mhmm. Yes.

Hear it.

That’s one of my goals for CSP is that I have to show up with questions on the post it note.

So just preparing you for the future.

That’s great.

I love it. So these are could be combined. I’m not really sure, but I need to create a lead magnet. And I also kind of had this I was looking ahead a little bit at your, everything you shared today about the retainer.

And I got to the part where you and I have had many of conversations about looking at minutes as money as well. Mhmm. And, and so I guess I’m in this kind of place where I know I need to quadruple down on all authority building and all sorts of things.

And when you don’t have enough money, then you have to invest the time. But when you have maybe some money, you could invest. And I’m in one of those conundrums where I’m like, okay. I know I do need a lead magnet.

I know I have some money, but I’m not sure where to spend my time and where to maybe invest a little bit of the money. And Okay. So I was just kind of hoping for a little bit of help, and I just thought for a round number. Like, if you had to if you had maybe a thousand to two thousand dollars to play with lead gen or something, and, obviously, the result you want is maybe double your money or maybe one point two or I don’t care. Whatever the make some profit off of it. What would you say in terms of spending the money versus spending the time?

It’s tricky because the best place to spend your time is on things that are directly tied to money coming in. Yeah. So that’s great. And that’s but that’s true for anybody you hire as well. That should also be directly tied to that, and that’s where you’d spend money. I’d spend money on people, likely, on the right person, to do a thing. And it’s really a question of what the thing is.

If it’s a thing that you can do easily yourself and you are happy to do yourself and it’s not tied to money, I think that’s where a lot of people tend to.

It’s it’s such a big question.

I know.

I’m sorry. You’re trying no. No. No. It’s good. Like, we can work through it together. Like, what do you have in mind?

Where were you thinking of putting it?

Okay. Well, I could hire someone to create the lead magnet itself, although I’ve created lead magnets very quickly with AI and myself. So and I don’t mind doing it. I actually have a lot of fun. So that’s I could do that. But I think the so then the other thought I had was someone repurposing.

Like, I love getting on video and doing stuff, But then I was like, do I pay someone to repurpose all the social? But that’s not I don’t know. Unless until you started talking about the many chats and things like that, that didn’t feel direct enough to true lead gen.

So I I genuinely don’t know. I really don’t.

It’s tough with thought leadership because it’s so much of it depends on you. Right? And if a lead magnet does feel like the natural thing, but, like you said, you can do these things yourself and you know how and you like it. And, honestly, how detailed does like, how much time does it need to take?

As in, could you create a really good lead magnet on your phone right now if you just made notes about, like, three really cool points to hit and then you just recorded it. That would be probably great. Right? Like, people would be able to consume it.

You could share it all over the place. You could cut it up everywhere.

So thought leadership’s a tricky one to outsource.

Where are you Well, and if you have other ideas, it doesn’t have to be the authority thing either.

I just I think the bigger thing for me is where can I start really how can I make a little bit money of money off of that so I could keep investing and eventually grow that, you know, investment into help or whatever it looks like? I don’t know.

Where are you growing right now the most?

Oh, DMs, apparently. Although that’s not because of a strategy.

That’s honestly, no. Honestly, I’m seeing a very strange I was gonna ask you if you had done something because I got all of a sudden several people from copy hackers. Like, someone I didn’t even know in the copy hackers community referred me to someone that they whatever. I got a former copy hackers review person that I used to review all of his copy and reviews. Do you remember that?

One of those people remember that stuff.

And then another one of those people reached out. So I don’t know. It’s frankly from work I did with you all several years ago that I Yay.

So, I mean, I thank you, number one.

But, like You did it.

Yeah. No. You did it. Well done.

The thing is that’s like okay. We’re we’re talking there, as you know, about planting a seed years ago, and now it’s harvest time for that, which is cool. That’s great.

You’re saying how can I buy a plant that’s already grown to that level, plant it immediately, and then reap benefits from that too, which is a very fair question?

It’s reasonable.

It’s just when I’m thinking about, like, the areas where you can grow I’m glad we have a lot of time in this call. Does does anybody have any thoughts on this?

I mean, I’ve I’ve done ads before, so I I know how to do it.

To spend. You wanna make it sorry. Go ahead, Jessica.

No. I’ve just I’ve I’ve, my reaction wasn’t to you, what you were saying. It was just my I’ve done ad funnels before, and I can do them. But I don’t that’s not really my long game. And so it feels like you spend so much upfront with ads to learn so that you could dial them in. And so then it’s like, well, if I don’t really want that to be a huge part of my business or a huge focus, that feels like short term thinking, and I don’t I don’t wanna do that either.

I’m wondering about, like I really can.

So the best so what you’ve said so far is source referral sources are bringing in a lot for you right now. I would wonder, is there a sponsorship that you can a good one. If you’re willing to experiment with the two thousand dollars, if you’re like, I want it to grow, but I know that there’s no sure thing except in the world of ads, and then you need to start with, like, twenty thousand and go up to a hundred be, like, really ready to scale that. Right?

So to me, I feel like I don’t want you to waste, but can you spread that out over if you can find four influential people, pay them five hundred bucks a piece on Instagram or LinkedIn or what feels right to you and get them to say something about you to their audience. You’d still have to put in the time to figure out what you want to do, but that could be.

If referrals are what’s driving things right now, it’s really, really tough. I’m gonna think about it. I would I would explore four people, five hundred bucks, to tell their audience about you. Can you find any, like, micro influencers in ecommerce?

Yeah. Okay. I can look into it.

So Could be sponsoring a newsletter.

Okay.

These are not typically good, though.

So that’s the trick. It’s not like sponsor a newsletter, get money. Although, you could. Like, it can happen.

It’s just not a sure thing. Right. And I know so little is, but I would start down that path. Okay.

Doesn’t mean it’s right now.

Okay. Now I’m gonna be thinking about this all day.

Alright. Alright. Alright.

Thank you. I think yep. That’s all of them for me.

We’re gonna think about this afterward.

What would you do? Because that’s just a good idea. If you have two thousand, you wanna make ten thousand, what do you do?

I honestly thought I would start a podcast around this, and this would be the first episode. You get a thousand dollars. You have to invest it in something as a freelancer that will bring in at least twelve hundred dollars or something like that. Like, you get you get your money back and maybe a little bit.

And I I don’t know. I just wanna start something off that just to ask people like you. Alright. What would you do?

Because investors were like, I don’t know.

Will count, like, with with that count? But because, I mean, that seems I mean, people are like, I mean, I don’t know what were what were you going, Jessica. Are you going the agency route or are you staying?

Yeah. I’d like to go to the agency route.

Yeah. Yeah. I was just wondering if you know, because, I mean, two thousand dollars depending on the VA gets you a good chunk of time, potentially a a a good, relationship, a good you know, a lot it’s not some time freed up for you to go and focus on other things. So maybe it’s not a direct output of money, but it is definitely like that seed, that, you know, in a few months, six months, twelve months, like, I imagine would would pay off way more than but but, I mean, that might not been what you were thinking.

I just want I’d want when I think of my VA, like, I have a so the person oh, the in the chat, I don’t know if you saw this, Johnson, but I know Joe did.

She had asked me about those videos, and I rehired an old video editor of mine who’s, like, my video VA. And I so I’m okay with I think just I have to be very clear about what are they doing. I don’t just want someone checking my emails or, you know, whatever. So it’s just it always comes back to I better have a very clear outcome that I’m asking them to do. Otherwise, it’ll drive me and them crazy.

So, yeah, I hear you, though.

I have to think about Didn’t you say that you are you still doing that, Joe, where you you spend an hour and you send do a bunch of video and then you send it off to your social media manager and they chop it up and slice slice it up and send it out into the channels.

Yep. That’s Nicole is here. That’s what she does. Yep. Totally. Oh, hey. Nicole like that.

I just did one this morning, Nicole. It’s in the Dropbox.

So, yeah, it’s a good thing to do.

Yeah. It’s it’s a yeah. Yeah.

I think about that a lot. I just I it’s nice to meet you, Nicole. I I thought about that a lot after you said that.

It’s, I told a lot of people about that who, you know, friends from TEDxFC.

Like, do you know Joe’s, like, hour a day. And then, like, that’s how it’s happening.

So yep. Yeah. It’s cool.

That’s funny. And that’s where if we had more constraints even, Jessica, around where you want to focus. Because if we knew, okay. Social is somewhere that started to take off for you or you wanna invest in it, then we could say, like, okay.

Why don’t you go and spend two thousand dollars plan out an event every week for the next week that you’re going to just, like, nail the you’re gonna go to hot yoga, and you’re gonna hire someone locally to film you. And then maybe you don’t have enough money left to do, but have them do the editing too, or maybe you do. But every week, it’s something, like, interesting that you can put on social media that you can, like, actively, I don’t know, feel really like this is this is at the heart of what people should start buying into when they buy into me, and it’s exciting, and it’s interest I don’t know what it is.

But, like, there are so many things you can do with two thousand dollars that it’s really hard to pinpoint the one winner winner. But it’d be good to even just make a list of what can you do with two thousand dollars depending on where you’re at. Yeah. And write in great content on that.

That’s kinda cool, Jessica.

It’s a good question. Good idea for the podcast. I mean, maybe not even a podcast. Like, just, reach out to people. Write a write a a content piece, get talk to the ten cool people and see what they’d say. I would absolutely read that.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Alright. Well, good. It’s not off my list then because I felt it was not staying focused on the holiday stuff.

But if you go off It’s not it’s a problem that way.

Do it. Yeah. No.

It’s an actual problem because it’s not focused on, on that. It’d probably have to just be, like, a small part, like, a segment of your podcast rather than the focus. Yeah.

But what you just said, though, Joe, about going out not to hot yoga because yeah.

Do things that make you uncomfortable. They’re more fun to have.

I’m totally fine. I’m it was the I’ll do the hot yoga.

I’ll do the video. I will not put them together with Jessica doing hot yoga and on video. Like, that’s where those two will not come together.

I like yoga. I like video not together.

Not for a long time.

Maybe maybe if I become a true yogi and really just look great in those pants, but I highly doubt it.

No.

It’s just not gonna happen.

But I like the idea. When you said going out and doing that kind of thing, that got me excited because I do like doing video and being, like, a broadcast journalist type thing.

Cool. Yeah.

Yeah. Just not the yoga place.

But, yes, that’s that that struck a chord.

So I will that’ll definitely be towards the top of the list. Okay. Dig it.

Alright. We’ll work on more ideas.

Can I ask another question?

Yeah.

Ten minutes.

I was just thinking about, the thing we talked about, I started I’ve I’ve been thinking more about, pirate metrics and specifically acquisition, activation.

And I kinda got really excited about it because it feels like this mega good fit with my my narrative selling concept.

And I feel like those are like it’s like a marriage made in heaven.

Okay. And so, I was just wondering, to to kinda get the other way of I know that a lot of times, it’s like we’re not going specific enough. How specific would be too specific in, acquisition, activation emails?

Because, I get where this question is coming from is is is my, my organic writing style is, it’s not b to b. It’s it’s, it’s a little irreverent. It’s a it’s it’s a little tongue in cheek. It’s a little, fun, or I think, Probably not everyone else does. So I was wondering if, if there was any, anything there to to consider, you know, activation emails for fun fun SaaS company or activation emails for SaaS companies that want to, stand out or yeah.

So the style is just the packaging of the message. Right? And so the message is the part that that makes the thing perform or have a chance at performing, then package goes around it. Right?

So that’s all you’re saying. So I would focus more on look. I’m gonna write you activation emails that get them to the next part the next stage that make them ready for the fully onboarded. They’ve hit the moment.

They’re ready to move into revenue and then retention.

I’m gonna get that there with this narrative, narrative selling idea.

Cool. How you do it, I would say, is another story, and I would encourage you to always be playing with these different the ways that you package the message. Sometimes it is. The right way to do it is gonna be really irreverent, and other times it’ll be really to the point, and, like, go, like, straight and narrow.

And what you don’t wanna do is set yourself up too much for your audience to go, oh, we don’t do that. When in fact, they do and they want it. They want the narrative selling thing that you’re talking about, but if you say, I like to be irreverent, they can’t get the CTO to sign off on that or the CFO to sign off on that or any c level to sign off on that.

So that’s the kind of thing where you just, like, just you’ll just keep that a secret. Yeah. It doesn’t matter what the ingredients are in Coca Cola.

We’re just gonna just gonna sell people on the a nice number of hand drinks.

That makes sense. I think I was thinking from a perspective of, like, you know, sometimes it can be, exhausting to write in a style that’s not that’s that’s very far away from where you organically write. And it could be it’s just a lot of brainpower to stay in that that voice. So I was just wondering if there was anything that might selfishly benefit me.

But that makes more sense. The the actual value for them is obviously figuring all of that out, and then the delivery is, the packaging is is is less, fundamental. But okay. Cool.

Yeah. It doesn’t need to be key in your messaging, but it will come out when you start talking with your lead about opportunities and things like that.

Yeah. Cool. Alright. Cool. Thanks.

Awesome.

Good. Alright. Thanks for all the questions, Johnson and Jessica.

Nailed it.

So, hopefully, that was helpful. This replay will be available soon. We have the intensive freelancing starting in a couple of hours. It’s going to be a lot of detail today, so look forward to that. And then, of course, next week’s intensive freelancing ties back to what we just talked about today. So it’s gonna come together. Alright?

Well, y’all have a good rest of your well, couple hours. Bye.

You too. Bye.

Bye.