Two things. I have two questions, which are kind of related. So I’m going through the proposal, and we need a single statement on what you estimate clients can expect to see for ROI.

And I don’t know. So if I’m writing emails to get people to upgrade, and I’ve and I don’t know if I am going too narrow, but I was thinking so if we are dealing with emails that are getting people to move from your most popular plan to the plan above it Mhmm. Like, just being super specific so then I can be like, okay. Let’s specialize in that, and then we can add other stuff.

Yeah. So this isn’t free to pay. This isn’t, like, low tier to mid tier. This is, like, your most popular and up.

And, also, I thought the most popular tier would probably have the most people They have better data and so on. That’s my I’m dealing in hypotheses right now because I don’t know. Yeah.

And I would what makes sense to me is when I get people to upgrade, then they’re gonna be paying more money, and that could lead to negative churn unless they’re bleeding money out of, you know, some of the lower tiers, and they have high churn there. So when I’m thinking about a promise, like, I would love to say, sure. Let’s get to negative churn in six months. Well, that’s maybe pie in the sky, like fantasy.

Yeah.

I don’t know, and I can’t promise that. And there’s also a lot of other things around. Like, what’s their customer service like?

What’s their in app messaging? You know, what other emails are around? Like, I’m only doing, like, a select few. Mhmm.

And so as much as I’m working to make those highly conversion focused and tagging them so that they are a product qualified lead for that next level when that email is sent to them. So, hopefully, they’re at that moment of highest tension where they’re like, I need this thing. Why don’t I get this email, and, oh, look. It’s in the next tier.

Boom. I’m gonna buy it. Like Yeah. In my fantasy world, that’s what I’d like to be able to do.

It’s a good world to live in.

I’m gonna get there, but I haven’t done it yet. I have no proof that I have done it.

I’m hypothesizing that I could do it, but I also know that it’s gonna take some iterations because you need, like, you just need to, yeah, keep optimizing.

So Yeah. The question is K. What can I actually promise confidently without, like, having a heart attack, not trying to get it, like, trying to deliver on the promise? Right? Because you don’t always know what’s gonna work. Yeah.

So to me, it, you need to bring the metric closer to what you can control.

So, yes, it’s true that across the board, all sorts of factors will influence all sorts of results. Okay. So knowing that, what’s the one that’s valuable? But don’t start with valuable.

Start with, like, okay. How can I measure success out of the work that I do? What are what are the ways that I can be sure? So, like, through rates, open rates, like, things that are really directly tied to the exact thing that you wrote.

And, of course, open rates are affected by other things, of course. But it’s close. Right? A click through rate is affected by the thing that you wrote, so there’s that to consider. What I would say is it sounds like if you’re worried that there’s so many different things that people can say, that could negatively affect your results, then your results are not close enough to what you do. Does that answer your question or get close to it?

And if it doesn’t, that’s cool because I was distracted with this thought the whole the whole time.

Sorry.

No. I was paying attention, but I kept coming back to the metric. The metric.

The metric we saw.

Yeah. So I can the thing that I could do Mhmm. Is click through because is their thing optimized on the other side? I don’t know. Like, I can’t control any of the other stuff.

Yeah.

But in theory But that can’t be your promise. That can’t be the not that can’t be the promise.

Click through rates. Yeah. Yeah. But you can start there. So you can say, okay. Here’s what we’re aiming for. We wanna reduce churn.

Now what does that really look like? It looks like a number that your analytics person can report and say, churn is this. Is it up? Is it down?

But we are going to need to back up toward the email itself and say, okay. We’re ultimately measuring it on reducing churn. But here are the metrics that we can control with this email that we can increase. So if you’re going through this now and you’re like, okay.

It is click through rate that I can control. What I can’t then control is what they’re landing on on the other side. So if they’re if they’re landing on they’re clicking through and they’re landing on a page that’s suboptimal, then you need to think now at this point in the process, do I need to also add in landing page into the specialization, like this offer that I have? Is it email plus landing page?

And then work through that. It doesn’t mean it is, but work through it. Yeah.

Well and that’s where before I was thinking pricing page, because they land on the pricing page, which is why I was like and then you’re like, okay. Rein it in. Rein it in. Yeah. So I was like, okay.

And now go back out.

Well, but, ultimately, it’s true. So if Yeah. I can get them, you know, they have the pin, they have the thing, they get the email, and they’re like, oh my goodness. Yes.

I need this. Click. I’m gonna upgrade. They go to the pricing page to upgrade. Mhmm.

And it’s less than optimal.

You know? So then you hype them up here. They get to the pricing page, and they’re like, oh, well, what where’s the value?

Yeah. And then, hopefully, you know, the the feelings from the email carry them through to completing the payment.

But Hopefully, it’s a terrible strategy.

It totally is a terrible strategy. Right? So maybe it is that. Yeah. Because pricing page is so tied to Yeah.

That.

And then But it might not be called pricing page. It might be a sales page. And if it’s a sales page that has pricing on it because a pricing page, you say that to stats, so they’re like, got it. Headlines, subhead, pricing table, FAQs.

That’s what they think they’re gonna get. And you’re like, hang tight because depending on certain things, like the email that they clicked from based on the action that they took or did not take in the product. So action taken or not taken taken in product lands gets triggers email, email then lands them on page that should factor in where they came from. So you might go like, okay.

If that is true, then it’s a landing page, which has a pricing table on it, but it’s a landing page. And you might then go, it’s actually more than one landing page. We’re probably gonna need three landing pages. You start to come up with this process.

You start to develop this system that is more optimal for the user, which is really what we’re looking for in reducing churn anyway.

As far as marketing can control it, product is another story entirely. But as far as marketing is concerned, all you can do is work with the marketing assets, emails, landing pages.

So do you then come up with a process that you get to name, you get to call it your thing, and people want to implement that in their organization, and that’s, like, the core of your agency. It’s bigger than that standardized offer for ten k, but it’s also sounding like it’s more likely to result in better success for your clients. And you can actually measure churn more closely than you could if you just work on email. And churn is going to be the valuable thing here for them. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Is it too big?

Excited.

No. Okay. Good. I’m excited for you. That’s good.

No. Because then okay. I’m an ideas person, so I usually Love it. Get a hundred before I get a good one.

But, anyway, so you get so they click on the email, and because that email is yeah. So they’re getting the the feature that tipped them over the edge that makes them a product qualified lead. Yeah. That’s gonna be the feature and the next thing, then that’s on that landing page.

Mhmm.

Landing page sales page.

That’s what you’re focusing on. So then the message matches, and they’re like, yes. This just confirms.

Yep. And then, yes. Yeah. But I agree. Don’t call it a pricing page because was it you or somebody or red or they spend, like, maybe six hours on pricing thinking about pricing strategy or anything.

Anyway, like, instead of in.

Yeah. Yeah. I was like Yeah. They won’t see the value in it. Yeah.

Whereas that Yeah. That is more robust, and, actually, then you could actually do something Yep.

And really affect growth.

But then can you do that for ten grand? Like, that seems a little scary.

Yeah. But that’s okay.

If Okay. So how much?

So your role is to identify map it out. Map out what this looks like.

Run it by a CMO or two or somebody you know who’s in life cycle.

Here’s what I’m thinking. Talk with Jess about it. Right? Like, here’s what I’m thinking. Try to break it. And, obviously, it feels like you’ll have to do it a few times before you can charge twenty thousand, but I don’t I honestly don’t think that’s true.

You come in with a great idea, well thought out. You’re the salesperson helping people understand the value here.

Eventually, you’ll probably get to a place where this would be, like, a fifty thousand dollar project plus twenty five retainer. You I don’t think you’d start with that, but it can’t be ten.

Yep. Ten.

You put you’d you’d you’d live on ramen. There like, there’s too much work to do. So you’ve got to you’ve gotta do I would say, imagine it at twenty thousand.

That’s where I would land it and then figure out things around that. If it’s as robust without being over the top, don’t overdo it. But if it’s couple landing pages, some triggered emails, That is enough of a funnel for users, which is not a known thing, so kind of like a journey, that a business that’s struggling with churn, and there are so many of them, could see the value in it. And if you can really set this thing up, and you know that you can.

You already know that you can. You’ve done good work. You get a lot of, like, accolades for the work that you do. People are like, well done, Marina.

So you know that you can do it.

Now you just gotta figure out the thing, and then figure out how to charge twenty k for it. But, like, the pieces are real, and they exist, and they’re there. And now the next four weeks and beyond are how you figure out all that all that stuff.

Okay. This I can get excited about. I mean, I was excited about the emails too, but I always thought I was like, yeah.

But there’s still, like, there’s The nice the nice thing about email is it’s contained.

It’s done. You can talk only about email. Mhmm. You can become a thought leader on those emails. You can get so bored of talking about it that’s like, it it’s like an automated thing. Like, you’re a bit of a robot about it, and that might feel dull to a lot of people, but it’s also the past to, like, financial freedom. Like, really saying the same thing again and again and again again.

This is more complicated. This will take more. You’ll have to expand your thought leadership to things beyond email.

That’s okay.

It’s expansion revenue. Like Yeah. That’s Okay. Like, they talk about expansion revenue. Yeah.

That’s the thing that they talk about and how to do it, and Yeah. They don’t do it. Yeah.

Yeah. This isn’t, well, it’s sort of I mean, it’s tied into this, of course, but, you know, we talked last time, about moving towards email, getting to know my market better, and the the offer.

And, yeah, I mean, it’s it’s more or less a reiteration of the same thing. In terms of offer, I don’t know what I know. Don’t know. And I do know what I know.

But I don’t know what yeah. And I I know you have a lot of experience in email, and, honestly, I would just love to hear what your thoughts are in terms of offers that fit this model well, and, that that you think are interesting because that would that might be a really good starting point for me.

Okay. So you’re just looking for, like, ideas on what to do as your standardized offer?

Yeah. Basically. Yeah. I’m pretty open to to whatever, and I’m I’m I’m pretty excited. So yeah.

Okay. Okay. Love it. Who do you like working with? Who’s your target audience? Who is in closest proximity to you that you can reach?

So, I mean, it’s part you you mean, in terms of, like, next client or just in general?

Well, it’s probably that client with my cousin Lee. That’s but that’s gonna be in, financing.

But, I mean, it’s tech financing, so that’s kind of kind of a good blend.

K. And that’s gonna happen in q two or q three now. So, project I’ve done yet, which I’m excited about. Oh, so that’s the win.

And, yeah, so that’s probably where I’m going next.

Do you like working with tech?

Well, yeah. I mean, broadly speaking, yes.

But, again, broadly speaking, I mean, aside from, I don’t know, helping our company kill the rainforests, and, I’m I’m happy to work in any industry, as well as.

So yeah.

Love it.

Okay. So the thing that seems to be an unlimited gold mine, is life cycle emails, because of because you just the problem is you have to go narrower than that because there are so many emails that I’m I’m saying tech, but I really, in this case, mean SaaS. I don’t mean NVIDIA or other more complex behind the scenes things. I mean SaaS.

I mean, there’s a sign in, there’s a login, and people and users use it, and it’s usually product led growth. Doesn’t mean it has to be, though. So Envision has a sales team, for enterprise organizations. Envision is not a good example.

They just went bankrupt.

But they were really good for a long, long time.

But point here is if you work with SaaS, there are loads of good reasons too, which I won’t get into because I know I already talk too much as this.

But SaaS life cycle emails or SaaS depends on which part of the life cycle you wanna work on, but that nobody’s doing it. I’ve said this before. Nobody’s doing it when they are they’re inundated with work. They can’t hire fast enough, so that becomes your problem. Like, cool. There’s so much money in work, but I actually can’t hire and train fast enough. So that’s a real like, that’s a first world problem, but it’s legit.

And there’s lots of money. Lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of money for a life cycle. So just do life cycle, stand up, life cycle of some kind, activation through to revenue, whatever that looks like. You have a standard model in place that you, modify.

So you always know we’re gonna probably have these three box cars, but there might be a fourth or a fifth on there. We’re always gonna do segmentation around this part. We’re gonna try to do if we can do triggered emails, then this is true. Some SaaS companies, you still can’t do triggered.

Everybody on the development team is, like, homegrown stuff, so it gets messy. Point is, you figure that out.

Stand it up. That’s your project. That’s a standardized offer, and then you just optimize it from there on out. And because SaaS businesses need this so badly and have a real problem of a database that is packed with email addresses that they’ve been ignoring hard.

If you can come in and start to untangle that, like, that’s why box car that’s why I started it. Just it’s endless, the amount.

The amount of of need there. It’s directly tied to revenue where they have users right there. They’re just not touching.

Is that what Boxcar specialized in then?

Yeah.

Yep. And that’s what Boxcar so I’ve exited Boxcar. They’re off doing their own thing, and they’ve added in other landing pages mostly because there’s also a lot of demand for landing pages, and things like that. But I continue.

Like, I’m consulting with clients right now, on exactly this stuff, and it’s endless. I can’t even stop the engagement when I try to. When I say, okay. I’m ready to hand this over to others.

No. No. Way. Confused. There’s too much money on the line. Yeah.

Okay. A follow-up question I have then is, when would you recommend looking to, gain a a solid understanding around this area in terms of self education?

Yeah. I mean, given that software companies use intercom so much, I would read through all the intercom resources, watch all the things. Also, Gong, though, like, gong dot I o, they’ve got a really good resource center and software companies that are using Gong usually have a lot of money to spend. They’ve got a sales team as well, but they’re probably trying to also do product led growth. So check out everything that Gong dot I o has.

Intercom’s, yeah, a really obvious one.

Yeah.

Those are Okay.

Those are the It’s like the.

Yeah. You can start there and have a really solid education at the end of it. Yeah.

Alright. Great. That’s amazing. And and just before, is there anything else, just seeing as this is something you’re so passionate about, is there anything else you think I should know about approaching this?

My only pause on doing it at all is that, you will have to get really strong at saying no to coming on board as an in house person. So I would say build out your team sooner. Yeah.

Right. Is a a crazy offer to bring you in because it’s so valuable or just right. Okay. Got it.

It’s it’s just so hard to I most people who started an email went off and did something else for god knows why.

So there just aren’t that many experts out there, if you become that trusted life cycle person for them, yeah, there will be annoyingly compelling offers that you’ll have to be get they regret it.

Two years later, they’re like, damn it. Why did I not just keep doing the thing? And I have story after story that I’m not allowed to share, but just know. This happens all the freaking time.

Don’t say yes to that offer. You can make more money on your own and be happier.

Anyway, we’ll get in we’ll cross that road when we get there, but that’s the only thing I would say.

Yeah. No. No. No. I mean, that just made me wanna do it more, honestly, because I’m never gonna go in house. So, yeah.

Never say never. The offers can be very compelling.

So to speak with. Sure. Okay.

Okay. Cool. Cool. Awesome. Thanks,

So I’ve been working on my standardized offer.

Nice.

And I do specialize in writing sales emails for selling online programs.

Mhmm.

But here’s the issue. Sales emails can mean a lot.

Yep.

And I was thinking about two versions right now. So first, it would be on audit where I do go and identify all the different types of sales emails they have Yep. With a list of deliverables. Like, here’s what I can help you with throughout the next few months and then a retainer to optimize the deliverables from the previous month.

That would be version one.

Mhmm.

Second version would be specific to one type of sales email. And this is where it’s difficult for me because what I do isn’t exactly a launch.

It’s not abandoned cart emails. It’s not welcome sequence sequences.

It’s a specific type of sales email that kind of relaunches the product after it’s been already launched.

And I can do it to non buyers. I can do it on a segment of buyers of other courses before. So I can figure out ways to add up to the kind of value and potential for retainer.

K.

But explaining this specific type of service email is very complicated, at least in my head right now. Okay. It would basically be be I know. Sort of like monthly promotion or a relaunch of a course they’ve done before.

K.

Couple things. One, very cool.

So if you can’t describe this type of email, you have to. So step one, learn to describe it.

Give it a name. If this this might be the thing you own. Right? This could if if you can’t think of the name, then it’s conversion focused copy, which turns into conversion copy, which becomes a thing. So you get to come up with the thing now for this type of email, which when you’re talking about it, I’m like, I don’t I don’t know what that is, like, this special kind of email. So if it doesn’t exist as a thing or even if it does, but only, like, people aren’t doing a good job talking about it, you swoop in, you take that. That’s yours now, and you give it a name.

In marketing, like, in product marketing and in retail Yep. They basically call this rebranding to relaunch a product that’s already been in the market. So they throw something new at it whether it’s, like, a new benefit, feature, color Yeah. Whatever, and then they relaunch it.

Yeah. It’s what I do, but instead of, like, rebranding the course, I find a new angle or pinpoint to talk about it in an email. Yep. Yep.

Cool.

And I’m familiar with the general idea.

I have a friend who worked at IBM who walked me through how they did launches for products there, and it was just like you’re saying. You do a launch, and then you have, like, many launches after that are like, we just released this version of that thing, but you never just launched once. So I totally get it. You need a name for it because even this friend didn’t have a name for it outside of, I think, IBM was in it.

So, again Okay. Cool. That one’s Cool. Can’t use that.

But come up with a name for it. Own it. That’s your little TM. That’s your that becomes your IP.

Right? That’s the thing that you can own, which is brilliant and get on stage. You can make people want it. You can do all the great things to own it.

Once you come up with that, then, sure, you can come up with this, like, flow, the standardized offer where you stand it up and then you optimize it. Challenge being, if people don’t know what it is or if they even have one, then it’s obviously gonna be a little bit trickier.

Slightly different sales cycle potentially to get them there.

The good thing about the audit is they already know they have emails. You can go through and come up with a road map for them that’s, like, where you, focus on this type of email that you’re talking about. Like, you load that up on the road map. And that is the boxcar, like, our agency boxcar. That’s exactly what it that’s the whole idea.

Stand you do an audit, and then you create a road map, and you work on that stuff forever for forever.

And that’s great. So that’s really, really good. There’s lots you can do there. I would my steps would be, one, really describe what your thing is.

Two, give it a name. And three, if you can if you have reason to believe that you can go out and make people want this, which is a very hard thing in marketing. It’s what marketing exists to do, but it takes a lot of work. Right?

To make people want it to get that motivation in them often requires a lot of forces saying they should want that thing.

So still do that, but I would say the easiest win, the quickest win would be audit plus road map. Yeah. Yeah. That’s why you’re doing that. Still own this other thing and build up that two or three years from now, people know you for that thing, and you can shift your sales offer.

I’ve been referring to this, like, the customer centric approach to sales emails, but it doesn’t really explain how it works.

And I’ve been doing this for, like, four years with sixty plus creators.

Mhmm. So the results exist. Okay. It works. I just realized in working on my standardized offer that from everything that is called the sales email Yeah. What I do isn’t a standard version.

Mhmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Cool. That’s great. You have a history of doing this. That means when we look at, like, the sunshine growth model over in the skills area, you have proof. You can say I have done this. Here are some results.

Cool. Then all you really need to do is, I think, I would say, if I were you, I’d be like, cool. I’ve got results. I’ve done this before.

It’s just people don’t know what it’s called. I’m gonna own the term. I have to go up with the term. What’s the term?

Yay. I get to go for coffee and set my brain to working on what the term is. That’s my new name for it and own it. That would be the thing that I would try.

You get to try. Right? You get to assign yourself. You get to do this job of choosing the standardized offer and then making people want it. So if you’re up for that challenge, then give it a name, make it your standardized offer, and go forward and conquer.

I I mean, if you have a lot of a background yeah. There you go. Good? Fabulous. Thank you. Fabulous.

Well done, Monica. K. I wanna know the name, though. When are you gonna come up with the name by?

Well, I already talked with Tina and Sarah about this. So by next week, I’m gonna figure it out and then coming up with the name is hard but isn’t hard.

So Yeah.

It’s the fun part until you realize naming sucks.

Nothing ever works in naming.

But, yeah, leaning away from customer centric, which is, like, the descriptor. Yeah.

Okay. Sorry. Thanks. So validation.

When when use I know how I think of validation. What do you think when you say validation? What’s the best way what are you looking for?

Can I go out there and sell this right now? That’s all I think of. Okay. That’s probably not right.

What’s the best way to know if you can go out there and sell this right now?

What’s the best way?

I have no I’m I’m drawing a blank. I don’t know.

Contact my old clients and see if I can spell it?

Yeah. Exactly. Just go out and spell it.

So most perfect validation.

So exactly. Adnan just said trying to sell it. Yeah. Try to sell it. And so that’s, like, the next lead that you get, try to sell it.

And that takes, you know, we’re we haven’t got into the whole sales conversations and all of that kind of stuff. But if you wanna validate it, if you get a good lead that looks like your ideal, audience, start selling it right now, and that’s it. Right? Like, that’s it.

There’s other ways you could. But to me, I feel like it’s validated by other businesses already following this model. It’s not a new model. It’s just different from what you’ve been doing, which is what every copywriter does.

Job, job, different job, job, job, job.

And this is just like, only this job followed by only this recurring job. But that’s true for agencies everywhere, every Facebook ad agency on the planet. That’s what they do. This exact model.

So it’s validated in other spaces. What but it’s not even a different space. Ads are marketing. What you do is marketing.

So it’s still in the same, like, even narrow vicinity.

So that’s where I feel like it’s been validated by others.

Now validate it for yourself, and I would say just try to sell it and see what happens. And know that if you can’t sell it, that doesn’t only mean that the offer is wrong, which might be the thing to jump to. It could mean all sorts of things. Like, that audience was wrong. You thought they were a good lead, they weren’t.

Your pitch was wrong, or you listened wrong in the sales call, like, because you didn’t listen at all and you were just, like, scared of of this opportunity, that sort of thing. So we can talk more about it, but the best thing to do, go out, try to sell it, record that call, and then watch it back again and again and again and again to see what you did right or wrong in the call. And if it goes well, see what you did right and, like, repeat. And if it goes wrong, then get critical about it.

Yeah. How does that feel?

That feels logical to me. I yeah. Absolutely.

Hi. Hi. So okay. I have kind of two part question because I was gonna ask question about what you said to Jessica, and now I wanna ask a question about what you said to Johnson. But starting with Jessica’s, like, what you said to Jessica about the audit.

So I asked last time about, like, whether email sequences with the goal of increasing lifetime customer value is enough of a pain point to be a priority or to be, like, an opening offer, for a new client. And because most of my clients come to me I literally just went through my acuity looking at, like, what people had been coming in for. Yeah. Nice. It’s a pretty diverse mixture of, like, offer development, messaging strategy, evergreen funnels, welcome sequences, website copy.

Like, I have been doing all of the things.

Mhmm. But I would say the main thing that people come for is, like, either the web copy or the sales page. Mhmm.

Mhmm. But then through the research process, usually, we uncover the opportunities like those email sequences. Yes. Yep.

Yep. Yep. So I guess I’m kind of going back to the question of, like, the standardized offer. I know it should I want I want to, like, bought into the standardized offer being one thing.

K. But I’m just wondering, like, we talked about the Ascension model before. Mhmm. Mhmm. Do you object to having it be, like, come for the web copy, stay for the emails Yeah.

And then the refinement and then the retainer offer is based on the emails, but that’s not I didn’t bring them in talking about emails.

Yeah. I’m not against it. I but you can see like, I’m sure you’re seeing the challenges there. So you have standardized offer a with next price tag attached to it, which leads to the thing that you sell them on next.

So another sales thing happening. That’s okay. You already had that for the retainer anyway, but it’s, like, clear obvious sales thing. So this just has to be clear and obvious.

Okay. Fine. That’s doable because we know that’s, like, a really, really common scenario. I come for x.

I stay for the emails.

So standardized project b is emails, and then you just have to make sure that it’s, like, standardized emails. Like, it’s always the same kind.

So not, like, whatever part of the life cycle. Like, because now we’re like, oh, woah.

And then you have to sell them on believing that you, the person who did their website, is also the right person to measure and optimize their emails. It’s easier for me to believe you’re the right person for that if I only hired you for that thing in the first place. I don’t think of you as a generalist when I hire you for email, and then you say, now we should optimize your email on the long, like, for good.

Then I’m like, yeah. That makes sense that you would be the person to hire for that versus, hey. I did your website, then I did your emails. We should really work on optimizing those emails.

Then you have to just make sure that they believe you are the person to specialize in doing that work.

You’ve just diluted your specialization.

Because, like, the way the way I’m selling it now is basically, like, they come to me for web copy, and then I say, I don’t really think there’s any point in doing web copy without doing emails. Like, I I always combine them. Yeah. So it would just be I’ve never pitched a retainer of the, like, the optimization before.

So when you were saying to Jessica about the audit Yeah. Yeah. Because, normally, I do web copy welcome sequence.

K. But when I’m doing I’m, like, rolling my eyes on myself just saying this. Sorry, Like, when I do a sales page, then, obviously, then I feel like there’s all these other sequence like, the automated sequences that you can do.

But that is, like, impossible to standardize because everybody comes with a different level of sophistication or what they already have or what they’re willing to entertain.

So I thought, okay. Maybe, like, as a standardized offer for those, for those automated sequences and audit is a would be the entry point. But I have found audits really difficult to sell.

I mean, I haven’t sold the same I’ve I’ve pitched them a few times over the last, like, year, and I haven’t sold a single one because everybody says, I don’t need anybody else telling me what to do. I just want to hire you to do it.

So Probably a corporate audience there potentially if if they think they already have all the answers, but they’re not an expert in this, then that’s, like, a bit of a red flag. It doesn’t mean scrap all of them.

But, yeah.

I would say that’s fine. Too. I think there’s a lot of people, like, total I totally take on board that it’s, like, a poor fit, but I also think there’s a lot of copywriters who got coached to do these, like, strategy offers.

Yeah. So people are, like, tired of being told what to do. Yeah. Yeah.

That’s fair.

That’s I mean, that’s to me, I don’t I don’t live in your world, so I don’t know.

To me, it feels so edge case, but it sounds like it’s not. It sounds like it’s like a real recurring problem there.

So the reason that an audit can be a useful thing is because people come to you, not looking for an audit. They come to you and say, hey. Can you can you write this for us? And I’m thinking of clients who have come to me saying, hey. Can you write this for us? And I say, well, I won’t even know where to start. Like, we’d start with an audit.

And there’s no other way into the project. Like, you have to start with the I gotta know what I’m working with here. Right? I’m not doing that for free. That’s, like, critical strategic work. So first, I’m gonna go in and look at everything, and then we’ll figure out if we like, what the strategy would even be moving forward.

And that’s just it’s just like it’s a necessary part of the process, so it’s not superfluous. There’s nothing extra or unnecessary about it. You literally you can’t do the next thing without that thing first.

Even if they come to you for emails, they didn’t realize that you really just need to just step back and look at things. Otherwise, what are you working with? There are assumptions?

Yeah. So this client came to me. She said my my welcome sequence isn’t converting. My sales page might also need some tweaks.

Cool. Cool. Yeah. I had one call.

I got the lay of the land. Then I said, okay. Let’s book a second call. I’ll, like, go take a look at your sequence, and then we booked a second call. But then in between, I realized, like, the just throughout her web copy, welcome sequence, and sales page, like, the offer is not clear.

K.

So I pitched her on doing all of it.

But I guess that’s where an audit like, rather than doing that kind of work in between the two calls, you would say step one is the audit, and then you figure it out.

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, to me, it sounds like exactly.

Possibly with a bit of nuance there. But yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. So I I mean, there’s two ways. Right? There is the way of just like, hey. Send me your emails. Let’s take a look at them before our next call. We can figure out what to do.

But depending on the business, there’s usually just so much extra complexity that’s hidden behind the few emails they send you. Like, these are the seven emails in our welcome sequence. And like you said, the offer’s bananas. Like, it doesn’t even exist, or it’s, like, really weak or whatever.

Those things might be. So the the best thing to do for everybody is to step back and do an audit. The easy thing to do is, like, let’s skip the audit. We’ll just figure that out.

And that’s obviously not gonna be the right way for most for any business to move forward. But, like, I get why businesses without money are like, well, we can’t really prioritize spending money on on sharpening the ax. We’re just gonna have to go, like, blunt force just, like, bang the ax against the tree until the damn thing comes down.

And that’s not the client you wanna work with. You’re there to also you you want a sharp ax to the labor.

So then I was also looking at so there’s two possible scenarios. Either they come to me and and they have maybe, like, the transactional email that, you know, somebody signs up for paid. Yeah. So they get the transactional email and and then maybe something else, but they don’t really have, like, a flow.

Okay. So then it’s then I was thinking about the retainer, but I was looking at the worksheet with, like, how many minutes, and I’m going, well, what can you do in three hundred minutes? Mhmm. Like, you can’t stand up a flow in three hundred minutes.

So is that another standardized offer?

Or, like, what which kind of is like the so the standardized offer is five to six days. So how many hours are you thinking that is like, if we’re, like, figuring out realistically what you can get done? Yeah. And then, if they have okay. So you’re doing this audit, so they have to have something.

Mhmm.

But if if after the audit, you look at it and you’re like, oh my goodness. These are awful. I we need they don’t have any strategy. Like, it’s easier just to start from scratch. Mhmm. So do you just do, like, microbox cars every month just, like, stand up a couple?

Or Microbox car is an email. Like, that’s all that’s left at that point.

Like like, what can you get done in five hours?

Or what When you when you wrote three hundred minutes in the Yeah.

In the spreadsheet, because I’m, like, looking through it, and I’m, yeah, making it work for what I’m doing. Yep. And then I’m going, okay. So Joanna wrote this, and she thought it was realistic.

Yep.

Realistic with a gazillion years of experience. Okay.

So not a gazillion. Sorry. That didn’t come out quite right. But you have you have lots of like, you’re, you’re a pro. Like, you’re amazing. Anyway, so what can you expect?

Like, even if you hire somebody to, work as a copywriter for you with you, what is reasonable to expect in those three hundred minutes that you can promise the client?

Because Yeah. Yeah. So that three hundred minutes is meant to be, an important sticking point.

Either you make everything small enough that you can get it done in that amount of time. You got five hours, which when you dedicate five hours to something, you can get an incredible amount of work done, especially if you’ve templated things well and you have good inputs.

But the idea here also is that if that’s not enough time, then it’s not worth five thousand dollars.

So if your retainer is five thousand dollars, you can’t afford to spend a lot of time doing that work. So you can’t stand up an entire email flow for five thousand dollars in the first place. Right? Like, there’s already that’s already a problem.

So that should be a signal to you, and I think it’s good. This is why we have these calls for, like, these exact questions. What do I do now? Now you raise your price to better reflect how much work you’re going to be doing here.

So the standardized offer and the retainer offer that that I am recommending as the core of how people go forward, the basic model of everybody in this program, I am recommending you stand a thing up and then you optimize the thing. That way, five hours a month to optimize a thing is more than most SEOs or CROs give something.

It’d be you’d be amazed if you worked in a CRO agency how little on page time is dedicated to the client. So five hours is a lot, actually, to look at what’s going on and then fix it or or make enhancements for, like, the three different emails or whatever it might be. But you’re not rewriting whole sequences in that time. That wouldn’t be the case. So if your model is the other way, which is we’re gonna start with an audit, create a road map, and then we’re gonna put out emails every, every month.

Then you have to change the amount of time available, and you have to, increase your price because you’re doing a lot more than optimizing one single email like, email, sequence.

So then are you thinking that the the would it then be better to target people that don’t have that already?

But if they don’t have that already, then what kind of a company or Well, if they don’t have it already, they probably do have it.

It’s just crap. So Right.

Like they still need an Yeah.

You’ll be rewriting the thing anyway and standing up Yeah. A good one. So that’s a that’s that’s, like, a containable, small, but valuable thing. That’s a ten thousand dollar project to saying, here’s the thing that you have.

Nobody likes it. It’s bad. Yeah. Here’s the new one. It’s it’s we have reason to believe.

We have hypotheses that it is good. It’s a ten thousand dollar email flow or whatever. I’m assuming in this case, email. Yeah.

Great. And then from that point on, the reason you have a crappy flow living there is because someone wrote it one time.

It sat there for three years after that, and now you’re bringing me in. Do you want it to sit there for another three years? Is this valuable to you? Yes.

It’s valuable. Do you want to sit there for three years? No. Not really. Would you like me to to make it work better every single month until we can achieve x goal?

Yes. I would like that very much. Good. And that is all. That’s it. It’s five thousand dollars every month.

That’s not in the scheme of things for business. It is not a lot if they desire the thing that you’re offering here, and that’s why it’s so critical to make sure you’re choosing an ICP that values what you offer. So the thing you offer has to be really desirable to email, ads. These are all great at that.

And then the ICP has to value it, the personas and the ICP. Does that make sense?

Yes. So what I’m hearing then is no audit. Just do the email or do the do the audit, then get that secondary standardized offer as the email flow and then move to the retainer.

What does your ICP come to you looking for? If if they’re, like, secondary onboarding, which I’d be like, woah. Holy. You knew that? It’s amazing.

They’re not gonna call it that.

But Right. Whatever they call it, they’re like, Marina, our onboarding is garbage.

Then they’ve self audited. They know it’s garbage already. They’re not coming to you going like, Marina, can you tell us this is dope? Because we think it might be like, they don’t. They’re like, this is crap.

So knowing that, the the if the ICP comes to you saying, this is no bueno. We need you to write a better one for us.

Audit’s done. You’ll still do your usual in writing it. You’ll do a heuristic analysis of it. That’s your basic audit of the thing. It’s just not an audit of their email marketing program.

When you want to do a boxcar then yes. Then do an audit of their email marketing program for fifty k or a hundred k or whatever the price is at that point.

Then put together a road map that says every month we’re going to release a new flow. It’s gonna be published, and then we’ll maximize it, and then we’ll optimize it. So we’re always working on three to five emails. I have a team of fifteen, twenty people who make sure that this stuff gets done.

That’s a much bigger scale thing. It’s a great solution to a big problem companies have, but I would say that’s down the road. Start now, stand up, a good flow for them, and then optimize it for six months until they see real value or whatever. And then you can always sell them another standardized offer after that.

Let’s do the same thing for this other program. And then you’re starting to build out to at least test the waters on that kind of agency for yourself.

Okay. And then my my next question was, with the seasonal sale standard offer, I kind of people are all over the place, I guess, with their well, how long is my seasonal sale? How long is my black or not Black Friday, typically, but a holiday sale, whatever.

Yeah.

And so I kind of decided to standardize it Yeah.

On the four day be based off of your insights and Ezra Firestone’s insights about it. Okay? So, I just wanted to run that by you and see. And then, I guess, anything else would be a add on or an upsell if if they need that kind of customization. Does that sound alright?

Downsell or whatever. Yeah. Okay. I think that’s great. Own it. Be the answer. Right? If they’re like, I don’t know how long it should be, and you’re like, four days.

That’s great. Thank you for telling me that. Tell me more. That’s great. Yeah. That’s great.

Yeah.

What because, like, I would say sales pages are kind of my bread and butter right now.

Yeah.

And I would say that’s probably where I have the most existing authority built.

Okay. So then do you like it? Do you like the work?

I like it. And then one of the I like it I like it because I teach that as, like, the foundational part that we start with. And then from there, through the research and the messaging work that we do for the sales page, that’s where, like, the ideas for the automations and the and the opportunities that are open to them come. Mhmm. So I feel like if I’m gonna be doing the same research and I’m only doing the emails, it’s like there’s a gap for somebody oh, hello. There’s a gap for somebody else to come in. That happens to me on calls all the time.

I know.

But it’s like, why am I cutting myself out of what seems like like, if it’s like a b c, why am I cutting myself out of b when they need to do b anyway?

You don’t have to. Okay? This is just like, how can we narrow it down? What you do have to do is have a standard project that you then can optimize as your retainer.

The standard project is either this size or that size. If it’s this size if it’s this, it’s just harder to systematize. Right? It’s harder to hand that off.

It’s harder to measure it, but it’s still doable as long as what follows is optimizing everything in that giant bucket. So size of the project is up to you. Just know that it gets harder the bigger that project is. Because our objective, as we’ll see as we move along, is to have all the SOPs, the systems, the checklists, everything that you need to hand off, like, sixty percent of the retainer work to somebody who can just do it for you.

And, like, really, like, to be so, like, pointed on exactly what to do at every single stage that well, like, AI could practically do the job for you.

So that’s where we wanna go.

If it’s think about the thinking work required when you’re like, okay. There’s sales page and the emails up. So the emails that drive to the sales page, typically, you’ve got these emails and the sales page, and you get you get the number at the other side of it that’s like, it’s converting at so two percent or we made four hundred thousand dollars this month. Last month, we made four hundred and twenty thousand.

What’s going on, Katie? And now you have to look at and then the whole sales page. Like, you’re like, well, many things could be going on, and then thinking comes in, which is what you end up doing in the retainer. You swoop in and do the thinking and make sure it’s, like, good.

But to me, I are you you have to find a way to come up with, like, mechanics for identifying, like, an order of operations. Like, if this happens, then look at this. If this like, right, you would need to work through put put your brain on the page. That’s the tricky but it’s tricky. Okay.

I also am actively actively trying to get over my addiction to making everything hard.

So when you say you’re like, the project can be this size or it can be this size, I’m like, well, it’s probably easier to sell and deliver a project that’s this size if I can get my self on board with letting it with letting myself choose the easier option.

I get that. That’s hard.

I get it. I I have made things hard for myself one or two times as well.

But it can be again, it can be the sales page as a project, and then you optimize the sales page. It can be the automations as a project, and you optimize the automation. Or it can be both together and you optimize them both together. But whatever you do, just make sure that you’re not doing new work with the retainer. You’re doing optimization work, not from scratch.

Yeah. Okay. And I’ll try to choose the easy one.

Just for this process, like, is it bad that I’m doing this on a project that I’ve never delivered?

Like, does it does it matter that this is a new newly concepted project?

Like, does it matter how For this process of the of, like, what we’re gonna be doing in the next few weeks.

Mhmm.

No.

No. I’m assuming that for a lot of people, like, they’re starting out there are people we’re talking to who are, like, shifting out of one way of doing it to a completely new way because what they’re doing is the hard thing. They’re so busy doing all the hard work. Like, there’s one who’s in real estate copywriting, and I’m like, oh gosh. How do you get out of that?

And she is like, well, I want to do a package that has their PR kit, their branding guidelines, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, and the sales page. And I was like, well, which part do they want? And she’s like, the sales page.

And I was like, well, then scrap all the other stuff, right, like, you don’t have to do all of those other things.

But she she hasn’t actually done a lot. She’s she’s taken comfort in the extra stuff, the PR kit and crap like that. But now she’s going to move forward with I do sales pages for property developers, and then I optimize that sales page. And that’s gonna be newer to her, not brand new. It’s not like I am a real estate developer, and now I’m gonna write copy. And it’s like, hold on.

But still in the realm of what she’s done before. It’s just now we’re going to nail it down to something small, high value, and optimizable. So I don’t think it matters if you have or haven’t. It will help if you have done that work before, obviously, I think. Although, there’s unpacking and breaking down bad habits as well that can that can be a problem. So, I’d say no. Let’s roll with it and see.

With the standardization, with what you’ve just said to Jessica about it not being, like, a series of projects, but it being, like, a repeatable, you know, like and also with the red ocean element of it because, like, I have to I think where I’ve really been getting stuck for, like, the last six months is I know I need to be speaking to that profitable slash top tier Yeah. Segment. Yeah. Because, like, genuinely in my space, like, every single coach out there has started teaching messaging.

And so I need to be talking, like, to the coaches who are teach teaching messaging.

Oh, I’ve frozen. Can you still hear me? Yep. Okay.

It was a it was a great phrase.

It was coaches who were teaching messaging, but who don’t have, like, smart, you know, automations on the back end that are selling their messaging program for them.

Okay. So second part first. The the likelihood of everybody always selling messaging is very high because everything always comes back to copy for, like, everybody or else it comes back to list or else it comes back to offer. Like, those are the things.

So that’s why Ramit Sethi has a copywriting course. That’s why Marie Forleo has a copy like, everybody has one because their audience is like, cool. That’s a great theory. Now how do I do it? And they’re like, oh, I guess I could sell you training on that. So just know that’s just the reality.

That’s just how it is. Everybody wants to teach this stuff, and what’s really good about that is that they’re marketing the need for copy for us. So you don’t have to buy keywords on it. They’re already out there.

And once people start doing this stuff, some find you. Cool. Let that happen. So I I don’t so if these coaches that you’re working with are starting to teach messaging, as long as they’re not teaching yours.

Like, they’re not like, oh, great. Good stuff, Katie. I’m gonna go take everything you just said and then teach it. Like, that’s a problem.

Not that it won’t happen.

That will also happen.

But, yeah.

Sell them the so so what I’m hearing is you have a project, this standardized what’s becoming a standardized project that is your I’m going to find your author your sorry. And your signature offer?

Mhmm. No. No. The signature offer exists. Okay. It’s about I think the project is about improving conversion rates through I was working on my diagnostic tool earlier. So, like, through, you know, like, speaking to the best, best segment of their audience.

K. Like, integrating audience feedback into the offer K. In, like, VOC.

So the project is I think it’s, like, sales page, like, messaging sales page based, and then the retainer is is the automations.

Okay. So the retainer needs to be an extension of the original project, not a new project. If we’re gonna do this successfully and make our lives good, then the automation is the thing you sell. You set up the automation, and then you optimize the automation.

That would be the thing. So so in order for you to set up the automation, do you also need to set up the sales page?

Or could that just be something that you’re like Well, it’s kind of like, what’s the point of doing the automation if I I mean, I guess if it’s like, you know, if it’s Amy Bordefield, which already has a really amazing sales page, then I’m doing the automations on the back end that are, whatever, getting more people to buy more things.

Yeah.

That’s the part if that’s the part you wanna work on, that’s the part to work on. The sales page, there are gonna be bad parts of every funnel out there, and that’s just it. Unless you’re like, I’m going to own the whole funnel, which is a project that you can deliver and optimize however, it’s huge to try to optimize the whole funnel. Right? So far better to start by saying, I’m going to set up your automation, and then I’m going to optimize it so it keeps going up, up, up instead of just sitting there and stagnating, which is what every single automation on the planet just does. Once it’s set up, it just sits there.

So if you can keep optimizing it, there’s value in that. And all you have to do is that thing. Now when you’re like, okay. The reason it’s not working is because the sales sales page sucks.

It doesn’t mean you have to write the sales page. A consultant doesn’t go, okay. Now I’m gonna go work on this for you. They say, I have a network of people.

I could probably match you with someone who’s is really great at sales pages. I could try to get you ahead of their wait list. Do you want me to do that? And now you’re more consultative.

You’re not the jack of all trades. You’re the person who’s like, I do this thing better than anybody else in the planet does it, and I won’t do things that aren’t that thing because I respect expertise too much, but I do know experts, and I will bring the right experts to you. And then later, if you’re like, cool. I’m making so much money with this that I want to open up a second part of my what appears to be an agency now.

I wanna open up a second part that’s all about the sales page. Then you can cross that bridge when you get there. Like, once you’re at the three million mark, other things take over.

But this is to get you to that place where you can have a lot of money coming in without doing everything.

What do you think about that?

No? Yes?

Well, I’ve I’ve always I’ve always called myself a full funnel copywriter. So when you said I could own the whole funnel, I was like, yay.

But then I was like, oh, but that, that that’s a lot harder because it’s like letting go of the pieces.

Mhmm.

That’s the thing.

Let go.

It’s hard. I get it. There’s lots of stuff I could write, but I won’t. I won’t.

And you have to also let go of things that allow other people to have work. That is what Kevin Rogers said to me that finally clicked for me why I should step away from doing services. He said, because there are other copywriters who could use the work. And I was like, that’s a really good way to think of it.

There are other copywriters who wanna be specialists at sales pages. Why not lift each other up? It that it won’t cost you because you’re gonna charge what you’re gonna charge. You don’t need more stuff crammed into your offer for it to be valuable. You’re only working on valuable revenue related stuff. That’s it.

So if you’re doing that and charging the same amount as you would with a sales page thrown into the mix or in the vicinity of that, then you can also, you know, help others, which might feel like oh, Joanne, like, why would I whatever. It might feel good or it might not.

But it is a it’s a it’s a note. Clients like when they think that you are well connected and, like, the best at what you do.

They like that. They feel like they’ve found a gem, and, like, they don’t wanna let you go. So it’s a good thing to say I I can’t. I don’t do that.

I used to. I can tell you what’s wrong with it, but I’m not gonna do it because I’ve met this expert who gets badass results. And I would much rather connect you with that person then start layering that work in. And then they’re like, cool.

And if they’re not cool, that’s I don’t my that’s that’s weird. Most are like, oh, great. Did I get another awesome person to come in and help? Like, they just feel like a badass more than anything.

Yeah.

Well, I I probably posted in the wrong I don’t know what channel at this point to post it in. So I did post where, I think what as I was thinking through, what it really boils down for me is this it feels like I was on a path with seasonal sales, and the priority was find the blue ocean and make it yours.

Cool. Cool.

And I I’m cool with that. That’s great. I did a lot of work around that website, all things. And I’m fine at the beginning if it’s not gonna work because I I spoke with, Caroline this week, and we were both like, we want to follow Joe’s formula here, the business structure, and, you know, whatever.

Follow the path. Yeah. But I’ve still struggled to answer some questions around, can I really standardize this seasonal sale? As I worked through the standard project, I did kind of two versions.

I was like, oh, shoot. Actually, this could get bigger, not smaller. Like, the seasonal sale. So, like, I was like, okay.

Standard four day campaign, for example. Great. But a lot of that really should be there should be a pre campaign buzz stage where you’re getting people on a list that they wanna hear about your seasonal sale. You know?

And then there’s the buy a second time during the holiday. That’s almost it it is a second campaign.

And that’s kind of all with within my philosophy and the thought leadership that I was starting to get down and kind of make my angle on seasonal and holiday sales. So it feels like a wrong move to then not have it in my standard project.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

So there’s so it just felt like it was an expansion of the project instead of standardizing and making it, you know, a doable thing. It just felt like it kept getting bigger. So there was that. Yeah.

And then just even with the other thing, even if I hadn’t gotten bigger, it felt like I was struggling to make a retainer out of it without having a lot of new things having to be created with the retainer. So I was still kind of struggling through that part. And I just find that for myself, the more I complicate things, the more time I waste, the more frustrated I get, and I would rather strip down that than add more. So there’s that.

Okay.

And then the other thing that’s always been in the back of my mind is I see I’ve tried to triangulate the data. I’ve tried to find evidence that that they see this as a problem, and I’m gonna solve it.

And I just feel like it’s it’s not the primary. Like, I feel like I’m gonna work so hard to have to educate people that they could be doing more with this, that this is a problem and an opportunity.

And I’m concerned because I feel like I don’t have time to sit there and educate an audience on, actually, seasonal sales are a great opportunity, and you are leaving money on the table as opposed to when you talk about, like, SaaS. You know? It feels like wide open with plenty of clients and ability to pay, and I’m concerned. I have that thing in my mind, like, am I making this hard with the project itself, and is the audience really there? And that’s Okay.

Sorry. So in a really long nutshell, that’s it. The world’s biggest nutshell. Alright. Cool.

Yeah. I had a couple thoughts during it, and I’d love to hear if others did too or what y’all are thinking. Because when you said it, what we’re looking for is the thing that can be measured and optimized on an ongoing basis, which is tricky with seasonal sales because you do Presidents’ Day once a year. But you’re always doing seasonal sales.

So there’s already something there. What you’ve spoken about before is the other side of the seasonal sale. So once you’ve acquired the customer, now you need to go get more money out of them, which to me feels like that is the thing. You also said just in this, what you said, the the buzz builder as well, which is maybe slightly too close to, like, traditional marketing and say and social media and stuff.

Mhmm.

But could be worth exploring.

What have what thought have you given to, and have you eliminated the idea of starting with your standardized offer being something like an audit of what happens after a person becomes a customer during a seasonal sale.

So you could sit down and say, okay. Let’s look at your data. You did the president’s day sale. You acquired this list of four hundred customers.

Let’s say you’ll focus only on new. Fine. Four hundred new customers came in. One percent of them bought again, and you could see that there’s a big gap there.

Right? Let’s work on implementing an automation and measuring it that always gets new customers who signed up during a seasonal sale to come back and buy something that’s not on sale or something like that. Right? Like, is did you eliminate that already?

No. I I I think I was looking at it in a broader way, retention and that kind of stuff. So I was looking at it not from the seasonal sale angle, but I was looking at it more from the new customer angle and that. So I didn’t think about getting quite as narrow with the seasonal sale.

Like, it had to come out of a seasonal sale. Mhmm. But that’s an interesting thought. I had not thought about even going more narrow with that.

Then you can I I feel like try to break it? Right? But it’s it’s an idea coming up right now. Could be something there, because you can then build thought leadership around matching their interest in seasonal sales, matching the pain they have around discounts being the only way the marketing team knows how to sell anything always during seasonal sales.

And that’s it’s like a gap, a really nice clear gap that if you can own it and say, I’m the person you go to when you’ve acquired a new customer at twenty five percent off, and now you wanna make them into a full paying customer.

Like, a lot, I’m thinking now of clients that we’ve had in ecommerce who are like, k. Tell me more. What’s that about? How do we do that? Because of margins you know, obviously, because there’s a lot of opportunity there. Well, how does that sit with you?

That feels much better.

Thank you. Yes. Possibly doable? Like, you can work through it and maybe again, try to break it, but then I don’t think there’s reason to back away from this idea around seasonal sales at all. Okay.

Good. Okay.

Push, and you’ll you’ll get there.

And we’ll get there, so keep bringing it up. Yeah. Okay.

Alright. That’s great. Thank you, Joe. Sure. Totally, Jessica. Absolutely.