Tag: ry
The Fatigue-free Daily Pitch
The Fatigue-free Daily Pitch
Transcript
Alright. So this is gonna be, like, super light. I know y’all are already, like, more than busy with what you have in front of you, so this is, like, an extra little sprinkling on top should you choose to add it. So, like, this isn’t, like, more work on top of an already insurmountable level of work, but something that could be helpful and additive to what y’all are already doing.
So, let me get this going.
Before I do, I had, like, the best chat GPT win ever today.
Like, it’s done a lot of amazing things. But, so this morning, like, I went to war with, like, hundreds of weeds that were growing, like, on the side of my house, and I just thought they were, like, nice vegetation, and I never wanted to do anything about it.
But my wife is like, no. You gotta take care of that. So I took care of it. And while I was, like, weeding and going crazy, I had, like, that song in my head.
Like, one that goes, like, that’s that was my battle song as I was doing it, but I didn’t remember what it was called. So, like, I went on Chat GPT, and I literally said, like, what’s that epic song that goes do do do do do do do do? And it actually said, oh, Fortuna. So I’m like, how did you know?
Anyway, however, you’re stuck on that. Trust me because he has answers.
Cool.
So there we go.
Awesome. So fatigue free pitch.
How to use a four by two soft pitch matrix to seamlessly sell in every email, LinkedIn post, and IG caption, which you are doing a lot of and may continue to do a lot of for the foreseeable future. So here’s the situation.
In this June sprint, your call to action a lot, soft pitching a lot. Right? It doesn’t mean you’re hard selling in every piece of content. But in most pieces of content, I reckon you’re having some form of soft call to action, whether it’s a, by the way, or a PS, or if you’d like to know more, etcetera. Right? So that’s what I call a soft pitch, which can get ultra fatiguing if you don’t mix up how that is worded.
So for many years, there was something that the whole coaching and service provider industry went crazy over called the super signature. You probably seen it a million times in your inboxes. It’s essentially that, like, boiler plate never changing. PS, when you’re ready, here’s how to work with me.
Right? And it was always, like, the two or three main offers that person has, and it was always worded in the exact same way, kind of like the spoiler plate that was never changing. Right? And having worked with a lot of these people who were running these super signatures, I would always look at, like, are these actually getting clicked?
Right? Do people actually click on your super signatures? And the click through rates, the link clicks on those were absolutely abysmal and almost nonexistent. It was just taking up space, right, and getting ignored and getting fatigued and turned into white noise.
So we want to mix it up. So today, we’re gonna look at four fresh angles and hooks that you can use in these soft call to actions, for two different types of call to actions, your workshop and your let’s talk, get on my calendar, but don’t let random skid on your calendar. That’s gonna be the caveat to all of this. Filter them.
Filter them. So once again, if you’re just slapping on the same super signature, obviously, at some point, your audience will glaze over it. That’s the tune out. That’s the fatigue.
Your click throughs will flatline if it’s an email, and you’ll miss a gold mine of low effort conversions. Right? And you’ll your content will only achieve some of its goals. Right?
Ultimately, even if we’re there to give value, even if we’re there to establish authority, even if we’re there to build audience and expand reach and own our space and own our thing. Right? Ultimately, we want our content to generate, leads. Right?
We want these our content to bring people into our workshop funnels and get on our calendars. Right? So we are going to add some new flavors to the call to action. Right?
And we’re gonna do so starting with the knowledge that using just a single framing or angle or hook can limit your audience feeling the pull, the urge, or the f. Yes. Right? So some people, some of your readers, some people on your social audiences are motivated most by gain or outcome.
Right? They want something.
Some are motivated by avoiding loss and risk, and some are motivated by FOMO. Right? Seeing what other people are experiencing and what they should be gaining. So this is all pretty basic stuff.
You’ve seen it a million times before. But for some reason, it just doesn’t get applied so much to these soft call to actions. So rule number one, we’re gonna be mixing between your workshop call to action for those mid intent and your book a call for higher intents, right, and avoiding stuffing. So we’re gonna respect the rule of one with our soft CTAs.
So it’s not gonna be the super signature where we give both options.
I would say, like, one call to action for both. Right? So stick with that rule of one, and this is ultimately what it’s gonna look like. Right?
So we’re gonna have this matrix. You’re gonna have, four different call to actions, for your workshop, four different call to actions for your book a call. And, essentially, you’re gonna rotate between these four different types of hooks. Cool.
So let’s dive into all of them. These aren’t super complex or super esoteric, formulas. You probably used many versions of these, but, yeah, we have some templates for you to lean into. So outcome based templates, it could be as simple as if you want desirable result without undesirable trade off.
And that would look like if you want one thousand dollar days without the cortisol spike I’m launching, get on my calendar here. That might be for Abby’s day one Evergreen.
Or you can have number two, imagine result. That’s exactly what I show you inside called Action. Right? So imagine turning every sale into three. That’s what I’ll walk you through in the profit without pressure workshop. Watch it now. Right?
So very simple, very easy to apply. This is an outcome based soft call to action.
Then we move into the risk, loss aversion based templates.
So every time you do x without y, you’re leaving a certain result on the table.
That looks like every course sale you make before installing these three automated sequences is a missed opportunity for an extra five to six plus figures of back end revenue.
Second template would be still haven’t taken core action that could be costing you and list what it cost them. Let’s fix that here. So still haven’t set up your day whenever green funnel, aka the one that keeps working while you’re airplane loading with cucumber slices on your eyes and zero bucks in your inbox. That might be why your sales stop when you do. Let’s change that now.
Then FOMO, case studies, template one, see how client went from struggle to result using your method. See how Jenny went from unpredictable post launch income to an extra hundred and twenty k in back end sales all by putting the post sale profit system in in place. I break it down step by step inside this free workshop. So that would be a call to action for your workshop.
Or the client identifier who takes action now will be enjoying that positive outcome while everyone else has a negative outcome. So the course creators who install their day one evergreen funnel this month will be scaling through summer while everyone else gears up for another high stress web cycle. What kind of want want that kind of piece and profit to see perfect here?
Then finally, last one, identity based templates. So if you’re the kind of identity who values a certain principle, this is for you. If you’re the kind of established online course creator who values steady sales over dopamine chasing launch drama, this free workshop might just be your new favorite thing. Number two, I built this for identity who are done with the old way. So I built this workshop for coaches and course creators who are done selling once and calling it a win. Let’s turn those first signature core sales into forever clients.
And number three, not for everyone, but perfect or then listen. So day one evergreen isn’t for everyone, but it’s perfect for experienced course creators who are done with launch whiplash and ready for calm conversion focus funnels that age like wine, getting more profitable with every month that you apply here.
So, next steps, should you choose them, right, you already have a lot of steps in front of you. But if you choose to integrate this, you can take twenty minutes at some point today, some point this week, and craft those eight call to actions. You can go analog on this, or you could use AI just by loading up the templates I gave you. AI may already be familiar with your offer in your workshop and could probably turn those out in probably five minutes or less. And then you would have that four by two soft pitch matrix. And for every email, LinkedIn post, and add your caption, you could just choose the one, the vibe, the outcome, loss aversion, FOMO, or identity that best matches the tone of your post.
And then if you really want the extra points, yeah, you could keep your call to actions and soft pictures in a simple tracker tracker spreadsheet, and essentially, list, right, the response rate for each. Right? See which ones are winning, see which ones aren’t getting any responses, add new ones. Right?
So if you are creating content with soft pitches, multiple times per week, right, that is many sales opportunities or lead gen opportunities per year. Right? And it would pay to have a bit of a tracker, right, and see which one of these are actually generating more responses. So that’s all I got.
That was really quick, and I want to make sure that I didn’t overwhelm you with more, more, more, more, more, and, hopefully, this is a nice little optional add on to what you’re already doing.
So let me stop sharing and, yeah, be able to talk about this or anything else and or you and your content sprints and business in general.
My pleasure. Cool. I’m curious if Stacy’s back with her coffee.
And I am back with my coffee, and I didn’t mean to ignore you earlier because I just had already walked into the other room when when you asked that question.
I totally get it. So, yeah, can you can you answer it now? Is there, like, a second tier of ingredients?
There is not a second tier of ingredients, but I heard you talk about lion’s mane, and I wanted to add that I can’t take it. It makes me wanna fall asleep.
Interesting. Okay. That’s not too bad. I thought you were gonna say something like, you know, there’s been secret research done somewhere.
No. I don’t know about any secret research. I just tried it, and it just doesn’t work for me.
So it says it’s not like a The Last of Us situation where it’s gonna, like, make me Mhmm. Okay.
Good. No. Your blank your brain’s not gonna explode.
Or Fair.
Alright. Cool.
I was thinking now I have this I have this CTA that I put at the bottom of all my LinkedIn posts.
Mhmm.
And it’s really just it’s short.
And I I’ve been wanting to make variations of it, so I’m very glad I’m very glad of this.
Although it’s mine’s kind of it’s super short, so I don’t know how I’m gonna I don’t know how I’m gonna adapt. But I can take the four I can take the concepts of of, you know, FOMO and loss aversion and all the things and and do it. But it’s not like a PS where it’s a long sentence. You know?
So so it’s, like, intentionally very brief?
Yeah. I well, I’ll pull it up and show you.
Sure.
So there’s one word I really, really dislike in call to actions, and it’s the word interested.
Right? Like, people, I don’t know.
I think Isn’t that the worst?
Interested. Right? Interested question mark. I don’t I don’t get interested about anything. Like, I don’t even know what interest feels like in my body. So when I see that, like I don’t know.
I really prefer, like, if this and that. Right? And the if clause being a situation that I can be like, ah, yes. That is true. Right?
Okay. Here y’all can be my CTA doctor. Here’s what I do at the bottom of my of my posts.
Sweet.
So if you’re, where are we starting? From the if you’re thinking?
From right here. Right here.
Oh, right there. Okay. Hey, l. I’m Stacy. I’m the smartest fuck. Robot named Sassy. She makes brilliant marketers even better at their jobs.
I apply for access at so I love that it’s, like, skim worthy, like, scroll scroll skim. Right? Like, especially on mobile.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s pretty cool.
So how, you know, how to take that? I mean, this is kind of that’s my sort of, like, standard boilerplate. I put it at the at the bottom of, you know, of of every post.
Mhmm.
Yep.
Apply for success. Apply for access at Avicasa.
She makes brilliant marketers even better at their jobs. So I think Like, it’s bigger.
I think the she made This sentence can be the month that that you’re right.
Yeah. That can be the place where I kind of swap it out.
Totally. Exactly. So you can definitely have more specific things. Right? Like, you know, she helped x do y. That would be, you know, a FOMO type one, right, or a case study.
Right.
Right. And then, like, very specific use cases, right, that, like, SaaS excel that. Right? And, like, where that thing would have, you know, ROI in their business if they applied it. Right? So something like that. So, yeah, that would be, like, the one to swap out for sure.
The one sentence right there.
Yes. For sure.
Okay. That works. That works.
And then it’s like is it clear how they apply for access?
It yeah. I I think it is once they go to the website. Yes.
Okay. So that might be a friction point there. Right? Because when someone’s let’s say someone has never seen your profile before, right, and your post got shared or showed up on their feed, right, and they see apply for that. Mhmm. They wouldn’t necessarily know the immediate next step. Right?
Because they’re not gonna be applying the Yeah.
Yeah. So I should probably, I should probably think about changing that to something else. So, I mean, I kind of deliberately engineer friction in there because it’s a whole, you know, it’s a whole part of the thing because it’s it it, but, yeah, I’ll think about that. That’s a good point. Thank you, Brian.
Yeah. Of course.
And I’m all for intentional friction.
I use so much intentional friction in coffee shops, like, putting things between me and tables, and my bags all filled up like I’m living there.
And people still find a way to sit right next to me and and take Zoom calls next to me.
A completely different kind of friction, but yes. Yeah.
Cool. Caitlin, hand up.
I have a question.
This can be kind of for anyone.
So, you know, if these CTAs and I’m my computer died, so I missed a lot of this. But, anyway, with, like, you know, having LinkedIn posts, Instagram posts, or things leading to your workshop with the diagnostic Mhmm.
I, like, am very happy with my workshop. I have a lead from my workshop from some from, like, a warm lead, and it’s a perfect ideal fit. So, obviously, the workshop is doing something right, and it’s designed correctly.
I felt friction recently when so I’m doing, like, freebie swaps. I’m trying to just borrow a bunch of people’s audiences.
And as I’m doing that, I’m feeling resistance of, like, I wonder if I should make a different freebie for the same audience that’s, like, a little bit more valuable.
The things I’m hitting up against is, like, my diagnostic. Like, it very much kinda teaches you a little bit of, the what but not the how.
And, like, right in the beginning, you know, Joe instructs us to, you know, say, hey. If you want to move forward, I’m fifteen k to begin, five k on retainer. So it does feel like, I just feel like it might be off putting for, like, these freebie swap people. Mhmm. Sure. And I’m wondering if anyone here has felt something similar or if you have other freebies that you feel are more so, like, man, this is just a quick win. You know, those types of freebies where it’s really just value, and more of a soft sell or something.
Yeah. So, I mean, it’s potentially a different market.
Right? Like, in the freebie swaps, potentially, I don’t wanna say that with so much certainty.
But, you know so I guess, like, one question would be if you want that to be supportive of, like, your course business, right, or elements of it where, you know, are kind of, like, lower ticket, not necessarily the higher ticket.
So there could be, like, an alignment thing there. Right? And, so, yeah, that’s really kinda, like, my first thought. Right?
It’s, like, lead magnets for who? Right? For, like, that core avatar, right, that has the fifteen k plus five per month to invest. Right?
And, like, what is a lead magnet that is valuable and important to them that’s actually gonna get consumed and get them to take that next action. Right? Because that looks a certain way. Right?
And a lead magnet, that’s going out to a broad general freebie swap list, and those are, like, in my experience, really broad and really general in a mixed bag. Like, you just don’t know what you’re gonna get, and that kinda makes it, like, fun and exciting in a way. Right? It’s like yeah.
It’s, like, kind of like the discount DVD bins from Walmart back in the day, and I’m like, there’s always something good in there if you like fish lawn.
But, no, I I went over engineer for general broad. Right? I really keep it focused on, like, who is that fifteen k client. Right?
And, yes, potentially, like, optimize and create different reviews or lead magnets, but, like, always with the orientation of, like, a, what’s gonna get their attention? What’s what are they gonna open? Right? Like, based on the name of it.
And, yeah, like, it might not be, like, a general broad thing. It might be a very specific tactical thing that is part of your process, right, but then takes, you know, hours for them to do, and they don’t have the skill to do it. Right? And that’s a very clear pathway to them getting on a call. But, yeah, curious about everyone else’s thoughts.
And for, like, some context, if it’s help well, like, it is because I totally get it. Like, I for the longest time, I’m like, these types of, clients, like, they’re not signing up for lead magnets. They’re not blah blah blah. But, some of them are.
And, like, my so, basically, like, the old Facebook ad and Instagram agency that I used to work for, all of them you know, all of those clients are ideal for me. Mhmm. And I know that they’re on their list. So they’re, like, my first kind of collaboration.
Yeah. And, like, the course stuff, that’s, like, a totally different audience. So I have separate freebie swaps going on for those, and those are, like, aspiring freelancers. So those are the course is completely different. It’s almost like I have two different business, which is why I have two different Instagram accounts and all that stuff.
Yeah. I wonder, like, before you change the content of a freebie, right, like, if you would consider, like, changing the name of a freebie, right, to see if one you know, essentially testing the name. Right? Because, like, that’s what’s gonna get that first click.
Yeah. I I think my name will get clicks. It’s like Mhmm. The little known fix that tripled my clients’ webinar sales or something like that or tripled conversions.
Mhmm. It’s more so, like, I the experience that this person is gonna have once they’re watching the workshop.
Mhmm. It feels a little salesy to me, and it feels a little like, okay. Because you essentially like, you talk about these twelve questions or these twelve things that you need to know about your customer’s journey, and you rattle them off.
But, like, I’m a little lost of how to find them. You talk about surveys. You give one example, but none of the other ones.
So, like, I just kinda feel like Mhmm.
I like, especially if it’s, like, the relationship of someone’s list that I care about. Like, I it’s just it’s just like that that sort of thing.
So that’s what I’m kinda playing with, like, maybe having a different rating.
So one that one that goes, like, deeper, more specific, and more tactical. Right? Like and gives right?
Yeah. Like or yeah. Like like you said, like, gives them some quick win. Like Mhmm. Like, one little piece of this entire process of a maximized funnel and optimization. Like, just, like, one thing that they could do. Like so I’m wondering.
I mean, I love that. Right? Because, like, it it still creates a gap. Right? And, like, the gapping, for example, you know, you could say, like, the one the one slide you need in your webinar pitch that no one has.
Right? And it’s essentially like a closed slide. Right? Like, you know, your unique way of closing on a webinar.
Right? And it’s like, they have that, and they can add it to their webinar slide deck, but it’s not the whole thing. Right? And it’s like, they can get a bump and get improvement and just have these see your expertise and authority on that and be like, oh, she taught me something new and this tracks and this makes sense.
Right? Yeah.
Obviously, I used to do that a lot with, like, launch email templates. Right? Like, had a lot of those as freebies, and it’s, like, totally quick win. Right?
Like, half an hour, new templates, send it to your list, get a win. Right? But it’s not a whole sequence. It’s not a whole automation.
Right? And there’s still a gap of wanting more. So yeah, I love it. Yeah.
Cool. Alright. Thanks for validating. Because sometimes it’s like, is this a mindset thing, or is this, like, a legit valid thing?
So if that Mhmm.
Helps. Totally.
I have some ideas too. Like, if you can’t think of what to give away for free, you could always, like people love SOPs. Right? So, like, give them give them something that kinda feels hard to give away, I guess. Because I think that then you’ll know they’re gonna actually get, like, a win because it’s hard for you to give it away.
But, obviously, it needs to still expose, like, another problem that they’re gonna run into. You know? So if you give them a SOP for, let’s say, you have, jobs to be done or something, give them an SOP for that. Well, they’re not gonna wanna go out and do those interviews. Right?
Something like that. I like the template idea as well or that webinar template idea and checklists as well. So those are just a few things that came to mind. But I think that if you look at your diagnostic and reverse engineer, like, okay.
Well, what problems are they gonna run into with jobs to be done interviews? Can you solve one of those small problems? Like, hey. When you’re doing this, whatever comes up, here’s, here’s, like, a quick win on how to overcome that issue.
You know what I mean?
I I can’t think of it off the top of my head, but, hopefully, that makes sense.
No. That approach is really smart. The approach makes perfect sense and gives me ideas, like, right away. So thank you. That’s really good.
Sweet. Any other, questions for today?
Most only is by Stacy’s camera quality. It’s pretty solid. What are you running there?
My camera is a Logitech BRIO. Really? And yeah. And and my background is a looping video.
Okay. That’s the secret. I see.
But yeah. And I have a a a real green screen behind me. It’s a but it’s just like a green tablecloth that’s hanging.
I think it was thirteen dollars on Amazon.
Well done.
Because, actually, behind me is a giant wide, wide format printer, which is very unattractive, as a backdrop. So, I actually created this whole background setup even pre pandemic so that I so that I could have a a good background.
Love it. Cool. Cool.
Sweet. Well, if there are no other questions, can definitely save y’all thirty minutes. I know you probably have busy days. So, yeah, let me know. Are we feeling complete for today?
Or Gonna go, make some new CTAs.
Worksheet
Transcript
Alright. So this is gonna be, like, super light. I know y’all are already, like, more than busy with what you have in front of you, so this is, like, an extra little sprinkling on top should you choose to add it. So, like, this isn’t, like, more work on top of an already insurmountable level of work, but something that could be helpful and additive to what y’all are already doing.
So, let me get this going.
Before I do, I had, like, the best chat GPT win ever today.
Like, it’s done a lot of amazing things. But, so this morning, like, I went to war with, like, hundreds of weeds that were growing, like, on the side of my house, and I just thought they were, like, nice vegetation, and I never wanted to do anything about it.
But my wife is like, no. You gotta take care of that. So I took care of it. And while I was, like, weeding and going crazy, I had, like, that song in my head.
Like, one that goes, like, that’s that was my battle song as I was doing it, but I didn’t remember what it was called. So, like, I went on Chat GPT, and I literally said, like, what’s that epic song that goes do do do do do do do do? And it actually said, oh, Fortuna. So I’m like, how did you know?
Anyway, however, you’re stuck on that. Trust me because he has answers.
Cool.
So there we go.
Awesome. So fatigue free pitch.
How to use a four by two soft pitch matrix to seamlessly sell in every email, LinkedIn post, and IG caption, which you are doing a lot of and may continue to do a lot of for the foreseeable future. So here’s the situation.
In this June sprint, your call to action a lot, soft pitching a lot. Right? It doesn’t mean you’re hard selling in every piece of content. But in most pieces of content, I reckon you’re having some form of soft call to action, whether it’s a, by the way, or a PS, or if you’d like to know more, etcetera. Right? So that’s what I call a soft pitch, which can get ultra fatiguing if you don’t mix up how that is worded.
So for many years, there was something that the whole coaching and service provider industry went crazy over called the super signature. You probably seen it a million times in your inboxes. It’s essentially that, like, boiler plate never changing. PS, when you’re ready, here’s how to work with me.
Right? And it was always, like, the two or three main offers that person has, and it was always worded in the exact same way, kind of like the spoiler plate that was never changing. Right? And having worked with a lot of these people who were running these super signatures, I would always look at, like, are these actually getting clicked?
Right? Do people actually click on your super signatures? And the click through rates, the link clicks on those were absolutely abysmal and almost nonexistent. It was just taking up space, right, and getting ignored and getting fatigued and turned into white noise.
So we want to mix it up. So today, we’re gonna look at four fresh angles and hooks that you can use in these soft call to actions, for two different types of call to actions, your workshop and your let’s talk, get on my calendar, but don’t let random skid on your calendar. That’s gonna be the caveat to all of this. Filter them.
Filter them. So once again, if you’re just slapping on the same super signature, obviously, at some point, your audience will glaze over it. That’s the tune out. That’s the fatigue.
Your click throughs will flatline if it’s an email, and you’ll miss a gold mine of low effort conversions. Right? And you’ll your content will only achieve some of its goals. Right?
Ultimately, even if we’re there to give value, even if we’re there to establish authority, even if we’re there to build audience and expand reach and own our space and own our thing. Right? Ultimately, we want our content to generate, leads. Right?
We want these our content to bring people into our workshop funnels and get on our calendars. Right? So we are going to add some new flavors to the call to action. Right?
And we’re gonna do so starting with the knowledge that using just a single framing or angle or hook can limit your audience feeling the pull, the urge, or the f. Yes. Right? So some people, some of your readers, some people on your social audiences are motivated most by gain or outcome.
Right? They want something.
Some are motivated by avoiding loss and risk, and some are motivated by FOMO. Right? Seeing what other people are experiencing and what they should be gaining. So this is all pretty basic stuff.
You’ve seen it a million times before. But for some reason, it just doesn’t get applied so much to these soft call to actions. So rule number one, we’re gonna be mixing between your workshop call to action for those mid intent and your book a call for higher intents, right, and avoiding stuffing. So we’re gonna respect the rule of one with our soft CTAs.
So it’s not gonna be the super signature where we give both options.
I would say, like, one call to action for both. Right? So stick with that rule of one, and this is ultimately what it’s gonna look like. Right?
So we’re gonna have this matrix. You’re gonna have, four different call to actions, for your workshop, four different call to actions for your book a call. And, essentially, you’re gonna rotate between these four different types of hooks. Cool.
So let’s dive into all of them. These aren’t super complex or super esoteric, formulas. You probably used many versions of these, but, yeah, we have some templates for you to lean into. So outcome based templates, it could be as simple as if you want desirable result without undesirable trade off.
And that would look like if you want one thousand dollar days without the cortisol spike I’m launching, get on my calendar here. That might be for Abby’s day one Evergreen.
Or you can have number two, imagine result. That’s exactly what I show you inside called Action. Right? So imagine turning every sale into three. That’s what I’ll walk you through in the profit without pressure workshop. Watch it now. Right?
So very simple, very easy to apply. This is an outcome based soft call to action.
Then we move into the risk, loss aversion based templates.
So every time you do x without y, you’re leaving a certain result on the table.
That looks like every course sale you make before installing these three automated sequences is a missed opportunity for an extra five to six plus figures of back end revenue.
Second template would be still haven’t taken core action that could be costing you and list what it cost them. Let’s fix that here. So still haven’t set up your day whenever green funnel, aka the one that keeps working while you’re airplane loading with cucumber slices on your eyes and zero bucks in your inbox. That might be why your sales stop when you do. Let’s change that now.
Then FOMO, case studies, template one, see how client went from struggle to result using your method. See how Jenny went from unpredictable post launch income to an extra hundred and twenty k in back end sales all by putting the post sale profit system in in place. I break it down step by step inside this free workshop. So that would be a call to action for your workshop.
Or the client identifier who takes action now will be enjoying that positive outcome while everyone else has a negative outcome. So the course creators who install their day one evergreen funnel this month will be scaling through summer while everyone else gears up for another high stress web cycle. What kind of want want that kind of piece and profit to see perfect here?
Then finally, last one, identity based templates. So if you’re the kind of identity who values a certain principle, this is for you. If you’re the kind of established online course creator who values steady sales over dopamine chasing launch drama, this free workshop might just be your new favorite thing. Number two, I built this for identity who are done with the old way. So I built this workshop for coaches and course creators who are done selling once and calling it a win. Let’s turn those first signature core sales into forever clients.
And number three, not for everyone, but perfect or then listen. So day one evergreen isn’t for everyone, but it’s perfect for experienced course creators who are done with launch whiplash and ready for calm conversion focus funnels that age like wine, getting more profitable with every month that you apply here.
So, next steps, should you choose them, right, you already have a lot of steps in front of you. But if you choose to integrate this, you can take twenty minutes at some point today, some point this week, and craft those eight call to actions. You can go analog on this, or you could use AI just by loading up the templates I gave you. AI may already be familiar with your offer in your workshop and could probably turn those out in probably five minutes or less. And then you would have that four by two soft pitch matrix. And for every email, LinkedIn post, and add your caption, you could just choose the one, the vibe, the outcome, loss aversion, FOMO, or identity that best matches the tone of your post.
And then if you really want the extra points, yeah, you could keep your call to actions and soft pictures in a simple tracker tracker spreadsheet, and essentially, list, right, the response rate for each. Right? See which ones are winning, see which ones aren’t getting any responses, add new ones. Right?
So if you are creating content with soft pitches, multiple times per week, right, that is many sales opportunities or lead gen opportunities per year. Right? And it would pay to have a bit of a tracker, right, and see which one of these are actually generating more responses. So that’s all I got.
That was really quick, and I want to make sure that I didn’t overwhelm you with more, more, more, more, more, and, hopefully, this is a nice little optional add on to what you’re already doing.
So let me stop sharing and, yeah, be able to talk about this or anything else and or you and your content sprints and business in general.
My pleasure. Cool. I’m curious if Stacy’s back with her coffee.
And I am back with my coffee, and I didn’t mean to ignore you earlier because I just had already walked into the other room when when you asked that question.
I totally get it. So, yeah, can you can you answer it now? Is there, like, a second tier of ingredients?
There is not a second tier of ingredients, but I heard you talk about lion’s mane, and I wanted to add that I can’t take it. It makes me wanna fall asleep.
Interesting. Okay. That’s not too bad. I thought you were gonna say something like, you know, there’s been secret research done somewhere.
No. I don’t know about any secret research. I just tried it, and it just doesn’t work for me.
So it says it’s not like a The Last of Us situation where it’s gonna, like, make me Mhmm. Okay.
Good. No. Your blank your brain’s not gonna explode.
Or Fair.
Alright. Cool.
I was thinking now I have this I have this CTA that I put at the bottom of all my LinkedIn posts.
Mhmm.
And it’s really just it’s short.
And I I’ve been wanting to make variations of it, so I’m very glad I’m very glad of this.
Although it’s mine’s kind of it’s super short, so I don’t know how I’m gonna I don’t know how I’m gonna adapt. But I can take the four I can take the concepts of of, you know, FOMO and loss aversion and all the things and and do it. But it’s not like a PS where it’s a long sentence. You know?
So so it’s, like, intentionally very brief?
Yeah. I well, I’ll pull it up and show you.
Sure.
So there’s one word I really, really dislike in call to actions, and it’s the word interested.
Right? Like, people, I don’t know.
I think Isn’t that the worst?
Interested. Right? Interested question mark. I don’t I don’t get interested about anything. Like, I don’t even know what interest feels like in my body. So when I see that, like I don’t know.
I really prefer, like, if this and that. Right? And the if clause being a situation that I can be like, ah, yes. That is true. Right?
Okay. Here y’all can be my CTA doctor. Here’s what I do at the bottom of my of my posts.
Sweet.
So if you’re, where are we starting? From the if you’re thinking?
From right here. Right here.
Oh, right there. Okay. Hey, l. I’m Stacy. I’m the smartest fuck. Robot named Sassy. She makes brilliant marketers even better at their jobs.
I apply for access at so I love that it’s, like, skim worthy, like, scroll scroll skim. Right? Like, especially on mobile.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s pretty cool.
So how, you know, how to take that? I mean, this is kind of that’s my sort of, like, standard boilerplate. I put it at the at the bottom of, you know, of of every post.
Mhmm.
Yep.
Apply for success. Apply for access at Avicasa.
She makes brilliant marketers even better at their jobs. So I think Like, it’s bigger.
I think the she made This sentence can be the month that that you’re right.
Yeah. That can be the place where I kind of swap it out.
Totally. Exactly. So you can definitely have more specific things. Right? Like, you know, she helped x do y. That would be, you know, a FOMO type one, right, or a case study.
Right.
Right. And then, like, very specific use cases, right, that, like, SaaS excel that. Right? And, like, where that thing would have, you know, ROI in their business if they applied it. Right? So something like that. So, yeah, that would be, like, the one to swap out for sure.
The one sentence right there.
Yes. For sure.
Okay. That works. That works.
And then it’s like is it clear how they apply for access?
It yeah. I I think it is once they go to the website. Yes.
Okay. So that might be a friction point there. Right? Because when someone’s let’s say someone has never seen your profile before, right, and your post got shared or showed up on their feed, right, and they see apply for that. Mhmm. They wouldn’t necessarily know the immediate next step. Right?
Because they’re not gonna be applying the Yeah.
Yeah. So I should probably, I should probably think about changing that to something else. So, I mean, I kind of deliberately engineer friction in there because it’s a whole, you know, it’s a whole part of the thing because it’s it it, but, yeah, I’ll think about that. That’s a good point. Thank you, Brian.
Yeah. Of course.
And I’m all for intentional friction.
I use so much intentional friction in coffee shops, like, putting things between me and tables, and my bags all filled up like I’m living there.
And people still find a way to sit right next to me and and take Zoom calls next to me.
A completely different kind of friction, but yes. Yeah.
Cool. Caitlin, hand up.
I have a question.
This can be kind of for anyone.
So, you know, if these CTAs and I’m my computer died, so I missed a lot of this. But, anyway, with, like, you know, having LinkedIn posts, Instagram posts, or things leading to your workshop with the diagnostic Mhmm.
I, like, am very happy with my workshop. I have a lead from my workshop from some from, like, a warm lead, and it’s a perfect ideal fit. So, obviously, the workshop is doing something right, and it’s designed correctly.
I felt friction recently when so I’m doing, like, freebie swaps. I’m trying to just borrow a bunch of people’s audiences.
And as I’m doing that, I’m feeling resistance of, like, I wonder if I should make a different freebie for the same audience that’s, like, a little bit more valuable.
The things I’m hitting up against is, like, my diagnostic. Like, it very much kinda teaches you a little bit of, the what but not the how.
And, like, right in the beginning, you know, Joe instructs us to, you know, say, hey. If you want to move forward, I’m fifteen k to begin, five k on retainer. So it does feel like, I just feel like it might be off putting for, like, these freebie swap people. Mhmm. Sure. And I’m wondering if anyone here has felt something similar or if you have other freebies that you feel are more so, like, man, this is just a quick win. You know, those types of freebies where it’s really just value, and more of a soft sell or something.
Yeah. So, I mean, it’s potentially a different market.
Right? Like, in the freebie swaps, potentially, I don’t wanna say that with so much certainty.
But, you know so I guess, like, one question would be if you want that to be supportive of, like, your course business, right, or elements of it where, you know, are kind of, like, lower ticket, not necessarily the higher ticket.
So there could be, like, an alignment thing there. Right? And, so, yeah, that’s really kinda, like, my first thought. Right?
It’s, like, lead magnets for who? Right? For, like, that core avatar, right, that has the fifteen k plus five per month to invest. Right?
And, like, what is a lead magnet that is valuable and important to them that’s actually gonna get consumed and get them to take that next action. Right? Because that looks a certain way. Right?
And a lead magnet, that’s going out to a broad general freebie swap list, and those are, like, in my experience, really broad and really general in a mixed bag. Like, you just don’t know what you’re gonna get, and that kinda makes it, like, fun and exciting in a way. Right? It’s like yeah.
It’s, like, kind of like the discount DVD bins from Walmart back in the day, and I’m like, there’s always something good in there if you like fish lawn.
But, no, I I went over engineer for general broad. Right? I really keep it focused on, like, who is that fifteen k client. Right?
And, yes, potentially, like, optimize and create different reviews or lead magnets, but, like, always with the orientation of, like, a, what’s gonna get their attention? What’s what are they gonna open? Right? Like, based on the name of it.
And, yeah, like, it might not be, like, a general broad thing. It might be a very specific tactical thing that is part of your process, right, but then takes, you know, hours for them to do, and they don’t have the skill to do it. Right? And that’s a very clear pathway to them getting on a call. But, yeah, curious about everyone else’s thoughts.
And for, like, some context, if it’s help well, like, it is because I totally get it. Like, I for the longest time, I’m like, these types of, clients, like, they’re not signing up for lead magnets. They’re not blah blah blah. But, some of them are.
And, like, my so, basically, like, the old Facebook ad and Instagram agency that I used to work for, all of them you know, all of those clients are ideal for me. Mhmm. And I know that they’re on their list. So they’re, like, my first kind of collaboration.
Yeah. And, like, the course stuff, that’s, like, a totally different audience. So I have separate freebie swaps going on for those, and those are, like, aspiring freelancers. So those are the course is completely different. It’s almost like I have two different business, which is why I have two different Instagram accounts and all that stuff.
Yeah. I wonder, like, before you change the content of a freebie, right, like, if you would consider, like, changing the name of a freebie, right, to see if one you know, essentially testing the name. Right? Because, like, that’s what’s gonna get that first click.
Yeah. I I think my name will get clicks. It’s like Mhmm. The little known fix that tripled my clients’ webinar sales or something like that or tripled conversions.
Mhmm. It’s more so, like, I the experience that this person is gonna have once they’re watching the workshop.
Mhmm. It feels a little salesy to me, and it feels a little like, okay. Because you essentially like, you talk about these twelve questions or these twelve things that you need to know about your customer’s journey, and you rattle them off.
But, like, I’m a little lost of how to find them. You talk about surveys. You give one example, but none of the other ones.
So, like, I just kinda feel like Mhmm.
I like, especially if it’s, like, the relationship of someone’s list that I care about. Like, I it’s just it’s just like that that sort of thing.
So that’s what I’m kinda playing with, like, maybe having a different rating.
So one that one that goes, like, deeper, more specific, and more tactical. Right? Like and gives right?
Yeah. Like or yeah. Like like you said, like, gives them some quick win. Like Mhmm. Like, one little piece of this entire process of a maximized funnel and optimization. Like, just, like, one thing that they could do. Like so I’m wondering.
I mean, I love that. Right? Because, like, it it still creates a gap. Right? And, like, the gapping, for example, you know, you could say, like, the one the one slide you need in your webinar pitch that no one has.
Right? And it’s essentially like a closed slide. Right? Like, you know, your unique way of closing on a webinar.
Right? And it’s like, they have that, and they can add it to their webinar slide deck, but it’s not the whole thing. Right? And it’s like, they can get a bump and get improvement and just have these see your expertise and authority on that and be like, oh, she taught me something new and this tracks and this makes sense.
Right? Yeah.
Obviously, I used to do that a lot with, like, launch email templates. Right? Like, had a lot of those as freebies, and it’s, like, totally quick win. Right?
Like, half an hour, new templates, send it to your list, get a win. Right? But it’s not a whole sequence. It’s not a whole automation.
Right? And there’s still a gap of wanting more. So yeah, I love it. Yeah.
Cool. Alright. Thanks for validating. Because sometimes it’s like, is this a mindset thing, or is this, like, a legit valid thing?
So if that Mhmm.
Helps. Totally.
I have some ideas too. Like, if you can’t think of what to give away for free, you could always, like people love SOPs. Right? So, like, give them give them something that kinda feels hard to give away, I guess. Because I think that then you’ll know they’re gonna actually get, like, a win because it’s hard for you to give it away.
But, obviously, it needs to still expose, like, another problem that they’re gonna run into. You know? So if you give them a SOP for, let’s say, you have, jobs to be done or something, give them an SOP for that. Well, they’re not gonna wanna go out and do those interviews. Right?
Something like that. I like the template idea as well or that webinar template idea and checklists as well. So those are just a few things that came to mind. But I think that if you look at your diagnostic and reverse engineer, like, okay.
Well, what problems are they gonna run into with jobs to be done interviews? Can you solve one of those small problems? Like, hey. When you’re doing this, whatever comes up, here’s, here’s, like, a quick win on how to overcome that issue.
You know what I mean?
I I can’t think of it off the top of my head, but, hopefully, that makes sense.
No. That approach is really smart. The approach makes perfect sense and gives me ideas, like, right away. So thank you. That’s really good.
Sweet. Any other, questions for today?
Most only is by Stacy’s camera quality. It’s pretty solid. What are you running there?
My camera is a Logitech BRIO. Really? And yeah. And and my background is a looping video.
Okay. That’s the secret. I see.
But yeah. And I have a a a real green screen behind me. It’s a but it’s just like a green tablecloth that’s hanging.
I think it was thirteen dollars on Amazon.
Well done.
Because, actually, behind me is a giant wide, wide format printer, which is very unattractive, as a backdrop. So, I actually created this whole background setup even pre pandemic so that I so that I could have a a good background.
Love it. Cool. Cool.
Sweet. Well, if there are no other questions, can definitely save y’all thirty minutes. I know you probably have busy days. So, yeah, let me know. Are we feeling complete for today?
Or Gonna go, make some new CTAs.
Beginning to Coach the Conversion for New Leads / Subs
Beginning to Coach the Conversion for New Leads / Subs
Transcript
Sweet. Alright. We’re gonna dive in. So this is, like, our first call post all that glorious goal setting we did back in December.
December. Yeah. How is that for everybody? Any, like, lingering questions from the goal setting marathon?
Anything to share there?
I think it was good because now, you know, how everyone’s, oh, New Year’s resolutions. You know? I’ve already had it all set, and I’m just rolling right into it.
So Sweet.
Amazing. Beautiful.
My mind is racing.
I know the feeling.
Cool. Sweet. Alright. Let’s dive in. I’m gonna pull up this keynote.
Gosh. You take, like, ten days off from Zoom calls, and you get so rusty, and you forget where the share button is. It’s like relearning tech.
There we go.
Sweet. Before I kick it, who here has taken either ten x launches or ten x sales pages before?
Sweet. We got a few hands up. Sweet. Alright. So definitely not a prerequisite, but, good to know.
So this is our first session of January. It’s gonna be all about engaging and nurturing new leads. This one is all about how to do so with what is affectionately known as the coaching of the conversion method and a very specific confirmation email template that y’all, may have already seen it in the workbook. If not, we’ll see momentarily.
So super, super brief coaching the conversion primer. This is something I’ve typically taught in, like, you know, hour long plus sessions. So this is the two minute version of it. But, essentially, it goes like this.
The version of your prospect who opted in to your funnel, to your lead magnet, to whatever it is that brought them into your ecosystem is not the same version that says yes to your core offer. Right? And there are a series of milestones, which may come in the form of certain beliefs that they now have, certain states, things they now feel, whether that is feeling encouraged, empowered, optimistic, certain awarenesses, things they are aware of now that they weren’t aware of a few minutes ago or a few weeks a few weeks ago and certain micro actions that they’ve taken. And all these things are needed to bridge what I call a pre customer, someone who comes into your ecosystem into a customer, someone who is a natural yes to your thing and your marketing and the messaging structures you use within it are essentially tools to bridge the gap via a process that we call coaching the conversion.
I said we call coaching the conversion, but I’m really speak for myself.
One second.
Do not eat almond before a call. Those things get stuck in, like I’m just gonna call it the tracheal cavity cavity tracheal cavity as if I’ve taken premed classes, which I haven’t. I don’t know. I think I totally made up made that up. The tracheal cavity.
Cool. So I have an unreasonable completely unreasonable because it’s impossible, but it’s an unreasonable belief that every lead who enters a conversion ecosystem, aka funnel, should convert. Like, I always get surprised. I’m like, why isn’t everyone who’s coming into this funnel converting?
It makes no sense to me. So I have this unreasonable belief that everyone who comes into our funnel, especially if we’ve done our job in targeting that top of funnel effectively, targeting people who actually have that moment of high ascension, that problem we’re talking about, people who truly desire that solution we’re talking about, I have this unreasonable belief that absolutely everybody should convert, and I get, like, almost insulted when one person doesn’t buy. And one on one sales tells us that, yeah, we should raise our standards. Thirty to sixty percent should be expected.
Right? This is what a typical one on one salesperson will convert out of warm leads. Right?
So that is a far cry from, I don’t know, the one to three percent that, you know, automated funnels or non one on one sales funnels produce that.
So this is a classic case of aim for ten x, right, and be cool with two to three x of typical conversion rates. Right? And this is essentially where the whole coaching to conversion method was birthed from, was me listening to a ton of recordings from one on one salespeople converting at upwards of fifty percent and being like, dang. Wouldn’t it be cool if we could do that at scale? Like, why should we be settling for one to three percent when people who are in these dynamic one on one scenarios with the same type of leads that our marketing is attracting are closing at thirty, fifty, sixty percent.
So coaching the conversion, it plays out across different assets, different types of funnels.
Ten x launches was the first course we released on it, which essentially coached the conversion through a launch. Someone enters your launch. They go through the prelaunch. They go through the actual launch. The cart closed, and we’re coaching different states, awarenesses, beliefs throughout that.
Ten x sales pages, which you all have access to, coaches the conversion vertically. Right? Pre customer, someone who lands on your page, sees the hero section. Customer, someone who gets to the end of it, clicks buy now. Right? So that is coaching the conversion vertically.
Sales conversation, that’s another type of ecosystem. Engineering the enrollment is another course that teaches that. So coaching the conversion plays out across multiple different types of ecosystems, but they all involve the same process of digging into the very basic stuff. Right?
Where are they now? Pre customer. And as a marketer, you get to decide this to some extent through your targeting, which I think is an amazing thing. We get to define our pre customer.
How cool is that? Where do they need to be for a yes to be natural? Right? This is our customer.
This is our voice of customer research. What were those final states, those final awarenesses? What was the energy? What was the feeling of someone who said yes?
Right? What did they believe before they said yes? So we get to actually reverse engineer this. And how can I facilitate that transformation at scale?
And none of this is guesswork. Right? We have the data on the anatomy of what a customer is. We get to target who our pre customer is.
Right? And, therefore, we get to make certain hypotheses of what that transformation is and attempt to do it at scale. So coaching the conversion with new leads, fresh leads via email, I’d venture to say, is one of the most important conversion contacts. And your confirmation slash welcome email will nearly almost always be the most highly opened email, like, out of all the emails in your system.
Like, you could go into your ActiveCampaign. That first email that gets sent is typically the one that’s gonna have the highest open rate, except for the ones with the click baity subject lines that, you know I don’t know. I’ve seen some pretty good click baity emails in my time. But, yeah, you’re gonna get a lot of eyeballs on this, a lot of attention and awareness on this one.
Definitely a lot more in email one than email number two, so it’s it’s gotta pull its weight. It’s gotta earn its real estate in your funnel. It will also set the tone of your relationship with your prospect. It’s typically where they decide if you’re gonna be the friend zoned person, the person who puts out great content that they love, the person who sends great newsletters but they never actually buy from, or the person who gets fiercely compensated.
So this is really a big tone setter in that regard.
Alright. Some high level principles when it comes to coaching, the conversion, and a confirmation email. So the more specific and intent based the opt in, the easier it is to coach the next step. And I’ll give you some really clear examples.
So if someone opts in for a workshop called how to make ten k per month as a freelancer in twenty twenty five, that’s excellent. Right? You know their goal. You know what they’re signing up for.
Versus a lead magnet on things every copywriter should know about selling. That’s great. That’s kind of mid. That’s middle ground.
Versus the best copywriter newsletter ever. Right? Vague, general, broad. You have no way of knowing who that pre customer is when they opt in for that.
Right?
So in my experience, a paid low ticket opt in, even if it’s a workshop that costs five dollars, will always almost always signal stronger intent and commitment than a free webinar or a free report. That’s why I love, love, love, love, love implementing and working with paid low ticket workshops.
Even things that people have typically used for free, I love just making it paid. It helps us clearly define who that pre customer is when someone actually takes out their credit card to even exchange five bucks.
One thing I will note, after years of trying to get people to acknowledge this fact, right, it is almost impossible to coach the conversion off of a general newsletter opt in. Right? Like, it can’t be done. There are too many assumptions and stretches you’re making on a general newsletter opt in.
So before you do that, you definitely need to segment that list, segment those leads, get them to raise their hand, and define themselves as as a certain type of pre customer. Right? So we do have templates for that. I think I taught this inside, CSP early in twenty twenty four.
But you could definitely look for the coffee date email template. That’s a really good one for segmenting your list and getting general opt ins to define themselves as something more specific where you can then coach the conversion in a more intentional and direct way.
And this is the biggest principle.
Essentially, the better your top of funnel targeting is, especially via ad creative. If you’re ad creative, if your Instagram reels, if your LinkedIn post could speak so specifically, right, to that top of funnel avatar, the more conversion milestones will heart will have already been met. So a conversion milestone, for example, is someone having a moment of high attention. Right? Being aware of a moment that they no longer want to experience with respects to that problem.
Another milestone is them being aware of certain solutions. Another milestone is them having tried certain things that haven’t worked. Right?
The more you can meet someone who’s already gone through that, the less you actually have to coach, the less steps within that journey that your marketing is responsible to lead them through. And it is really expensive and really time consuming to lead someone through an entire journey. Right? So the biggest hack you can give yourself is to begin that journey, begin that pre customer journey a little further down that line. Right? And your top of funnel targeting, the ad creative, the LinkedIn post, the Instagram reel is essentially what makes your copy have to work less hard down the line.
So your tofu targeting, in a perfect world, this is the first thing I would audit right before I write any email sequence for anybody. Right? Is are we making sure that we are bringing the right people into this funnel? And by right people, not just meaning people who have this problem, but people who are aware of it.
Right? I’m aware, moment of high tension, things that they absolutely no longer want to experience again in their lifetimes, that they have a known and desired outcome and resonate with what I call the moment of heightened pleasure. They know what success looks like, and they’re committed to it because they have that frustration and confusion within that gap. So this is all super basic, but it’s all worth returning to when it comes to our top of funnel targeting.
Right? The more of these boxes we could check off and the more intense these things are true for the people we’re targeting, the less hard our copy is gonna have to work. So when this is true, when we’ve checked these boxes, when our top of funnel marketing is dialed in, then your confirmation email can coach what I call the big three. But before we get into that, few quick rules more than ever.
Forget everything you’ve learned about nurturing in twenty twenty fourteen when the world moves slower and meta algorithms didn’t show your prospect ads for your competitors three minutes later. So this is a thing now more than ever. Now that the algorithms for ad platforms are getting so smart and so dialed in, Essentially, if someone opts in to your lead magnet, opts into your workshop, they’re going to be getting ads for your competitors a few minutes later on their feeds. Right?
So this is permission to move faster than you would otherwise. Right? Most marketers think they need to warm up cold leads, quote, unquote, when in reality, if they’ve targeted their top of funnel properly, they need to keep warm leads hot and use that fire to coach progress towards a solution. So always on the side of assuming movement and readiness and siding with speed.
Once again, time delay stagnancy is your enemy, especially when your prospect, your leads are gonna be getting presented other options, other solutions from your competitors literally within seconds or minutes. So unless your primary goal is to build a media company or a newsletter or an influencer brand, do not lead with your backstory. Email one shouldn’t just be, you know, an introduction about you. It shouldn’t just be authority content that is disconnected to the problem that the top of funnel piece or content or ad suggested that they have.
Right? So a very easy hack here to kinda balance the two. I love putting any authority content, whether it’s, like, books you’ve written or podcasts you’ve appeared on, or any other type of, like, backstory stuff you have in your email signature. That way you have, like, the passive credibility and authority content that they could just kind of, like, click through if they truly desire that.
But once they enter your funnel, if you’ve done your targeting right, you’re really trying to establish movement towards that end state.
So the big three, you can think of this big three as a source code, right, where you can use any tactic, any strategy, any messaging structure within your arsenal to coach them. It’s essentially these are three milestones, three states that you get to coach, and you get to use the tools available to you. You get to get creative about how you structure emails as long as they’re establishing these three. So the first one is coaching relevance because these are a few of the questions your prospect is gonna ask immediately, whether they’re consciously asking themselves this in their head or they are subconsciously making sure there’s a match here. Right? Am I in the right spot?
Is this message mirroring back my exact moment of highest tension that I want to escape? Is this relevant?
Is this message mirroring back the moment of heightened pleasure or moment of highest pleasure I want to achieve?
Is this message meeting me in what I’ve already done, tried, and failed at? And is this message pointing to an offer, opportunity, or next step that gives me new hope? Right? So if you get a yes to all five of these, you have coached relevance, and you need to coach this right off the bat. Do not waste time. Do not send out any other messaging, propping yourself up as an authority, positioning your brand until you’ve coached relevance.
Next is resonance. Right? Do they resonate with you, with your assessment of them, with your diagnosis of the problem, with your unique solution, and with your understanding and empathy of the entire situational gestalt? So one of the things I love to do in my marketing is talking about the stakes involved, the second degree effects of the main problem, right, the secret fears that they have around it. So really get dimensional about how problems appear in people’s lives, right, and get resonance around what you are mirroring back to them. And then the most important is coaching response ability, their ability to respond, their willingness to respond.
Making a purchase, saying yes, is an action. That is a response. Right? If we could get them to start taking microactions right away, ascending in the intimacy between what you’re doing, right, and them.
Right? So that could look like watching a paid workshop that they just bought. Right? That could mean engaging in a direct message or an Instagram chat or taking an assessment via score app or interact or a quiz or replying to a personal video message or replying to the email or booking call.
Essentially, what we are coaching on that very first email is can we get them to take that next action with us. Right? Not later, not on email number two when open rates have gone down anywhere between thirty thirty to fifty percent, but can we get can we get that next monumental action right here on the first email? So this is a little bit of extra theory.
This is something I created, like, a few years ago in a program that was called automated in intimacy. I can’t use that anymore because AI has totally taken on different dimensions. But, essentially, we’re trying to move people to this top right quadrant. Right?
The majority of sales happen as touch points ascend in intimacy and dynamism. Right? So we have a lot of marketing that exists in the bottom left quadrant. This is static.
It’s a one way dialogue. Right? And it’s impersonal. It’s one to many. But the more we move to that top right, the more we see higher and higher conversion rates.
Right? So this is just a little bit of an extra framework to see if you can get that next touch point to be more intimate than their initial one. Can you get any form of two way dialogue, dynamic dialogue?
And, essentially, that is one way to coach the conversion via greater intimacy.
So let’s put it all together. This is called the perfect confirmation email template, and it’s really simple. It’s, like, two hundred and fifty words that incorporates all this, you know, sciency stuff. It’s not even sciency.
I don’t even know what to call it. But, yeah, this is what incorporates everything we just talked about. So step one is to confirm and celebrate the opt in action or the event, right, to just mirroring back the action they just took. So this is one I wrote recently for a paid workshop paid workshop opt in.
That’s right. Cool. So hey. And then I blanked out the name. My team just nudged me to let me know you claimed a spot in the Art Money Power workshop.
Right? So just mirroring back what they just did. Now we have this whole section on coaching relevancy, which probably means so that’s a really good segue into this section for coaching relevancy.
That like the five hundred plus others who’ve said, hell yes, and now we mirror back. Right? Who they are. You’re an established fine artist who wants to sell more art pieces in twenty twenty five at higher prices.
That has you proving all dem doubters wrong as you sign a lease for that industrial loft with the exposed brick. Right? Little moment of highest pleasure there. It also means that you’re probably so effing done with trying to prove yourself to the leeches of the industry.
So moment of highest tension stuff. The agents who don’t return your calls. The art galleries who take a crazy cut and return your untold pieces with nasty stains and, oh my god, are there someone’s greasy ass fingerprints. Right?
Real moment of highest tension information we get from our voice of customer data. The art contest judged by other grad school burnouts who probably chat GPT their feedback without even looking because what they wrote makes no effing sense, and all the other disempowering ways the pick me, choose me, love me art industry has robbed you of your profits and your power.
So after reading this, like, section of maybe a hundred and a hundred and fifty words, right, there is zero chance anyone reading this would find this would essentially not know whether this was relevant for them. It’s either gonna be hyper relevant, like hyper agreement, or very clear that this isn’t for them. Right? So this is about coaching relevancy.
Next, coaching resonance. So a lot of this will have already established some resonance, but we wanna create even more resonance right around the new way of doing things. So if you caught yourself nodding, then you probably also be beyond stoked to learn and apply the same direct to customer luxury strategies that my students are using to attract kind collectors, cut out the middleman, and cash five bigger checks on the regular while finally knowing they’ve made it. Right?
So resonance around their end goal, resonance around the method for doing it. And then we coach responsibility, encouraging that next step, that next ascension on that paid spectrum or that paid, framework that we just went through. Now here’s the deal. If you close this email, then that dream remains just that, a dream.
Fun to pay and should be to live. But if this whole combo feels hyper relevant and you’re committed to making twenty twin twenty twenty five a living master masterpiece, then I highly recommend that you, one, watch the art money power workshop right away. So that is one form of coaching responsibility. And then the next, DM me power on Instagram to kick start your seventy two hour hybrid coaching and get a little unannounced bonus gift.
Trust me. You’ll love it. So I love adding a little bit of a teaser, a little unexpected gift for them taking an action that has sent them on the intimacy scale. So this is one tactic if you’re doing any form of evergreen workshops, evergreen webinars that I absolutely love.
So on the page or the workshop, one of the bonuses is called hybrid coaching. Right? So we acknowledge that this is prerecorded.
And because they can’t answer questions live, part of it the bonus they get is they get seventy two hours of q and a and hybrid coaching with this person and her team. Right? So this is a way to engage that level of intimacy and real time coaching even within an evergreen workshop.
I’m crazy passionate about helping fine artists like you reclaim their power, dignity, and profit from traditional art establishment as long as you’re all in, I’m all in with you. Cool. So that is the template. Really simple, and it’s pulling a lot of weight in relatively little words.
And, yeah, this is where we really take advantage of the fact that this first email is going to be the most opened, and we get right to the point. We coach relevancy. We coach resonance, and this is really our main goal. Our main goal is to initiate that one on one chat right off the bat, to not waste time with that because we know that if we can get a lead to engage one on one with this coach and with her team, that the likelihood of that lead converting and moving to that final conversion is gonna be that much higher.
Cool. I think that’s all we got. So I’m gonna stop my share and open the floor for any questions, any, brainstorms you all wanna have about how you might apply this in your own business for your own funnels or for funnels you’re working on per client.
Right. Where can I find the workbook?
Did you get a did you get a copy of it in your email yet?
I didn’t even look at my email. I have to see. Yeah.
It’s possible it got sent out. If not, Okay. And I could probably let me see if I can just download a copy.
No. Message me on Slack if you can access it, and I should be able to, drop a file for you. Cool.
Sure.
No problem. Cody.
Okay. So with that template you just showed us, is that supposed to be in this workbook, or is that somewhere else?
That is supposed to be in the workbook. Yeah.
Okay. Because I’m looking at the workbook, and I don’t see it in here.
Alright. So it’s possible that an updated version just didn’t get updated, like, while the crew was on holiday break.
But Alright.
What I can definitely do is, yeah, I’ll download it, copy of it, and I’ll send it to you over on Slack.
Awesome. Thanks.
Cool. Jess?
Okay. I love this. One of the things that I’ve been noodling on while you were talking was, with the diagnostic.
Mhmm.
And so if you were running, like, a group diagnostic, and let’s say you’re running it as, like, a webinar, you know, you start collecting sign ups, like, a week out or something. What would you recommend that you put in the, like, the responsibility of, like, here’s what I need you to do? Like, what’s that action that you would recommend that we prompt them with?
Right. So if they’ve already opted in for a webinar, that would go through that. Right?
Mhmm.
That’s a good question. Right? So, like, if there is an assessment, like, a self assessment that they could go through beforehand, like, essentially, you could take parts of what you go through on that webinar and just give them a faster self assessment version of it, right, of, like Mhmm. If this is something that you just got their attention with, because it’s you’re doing this live, right, the webinar?
Yeah.
Right.
So one thing you wanna defend against on live webinars, right, is, like, people being really aware and really kind of, like, motivated to solve it in the moment they sign up, and then there’s this gap and this lag and life happens. Right? So, essentially, it’s kind of like a skip the line type thing. Right? It’s like, take this assess take this assessment here. If you see your own gaps and wanna talk about it, like, send over your results.
So, yeah, it’s like, take this assessment, and let me know, like, where you scored, where you noticed that you’re a little weaker. Right? And we can kick start that conversation sooner.
I like that. And because one of the things I think that was really impactful for me when I did Jo’s assessment thing was, like, her walking through it and explaining it all. And I feel like, especially with the diagnostic, I don’t know that it would have and, obviously, I don’t have, like, the assessment, but I feel like the the walking it through and explaining it, it would almost have to be, like, instead of showing up live to the webinar, here’s a recording of me, like, walking you through it, and then why would they show up live.
So I’m wondering if what are your thoughts on asking for, like, a DM or a reply to be like, what is, like, your experience with x, y, and zed problem to, a, get some, like, VOC, but then to also open up that conversation, like, in the upper quadrant there of, like, the sales quadrant that you shared.
Yeah. I think it’s a great idea. I think anything you could do to get that one on one conversation right away from that moment of I’ll I’ll call it a moment of heightened receptivity. Right?
They just saw your webinar landing page. It resonated. They’re like, yes to this. They signed up.
You’re top of mind in that moment. If they’re able to take that next action to ascend in the intimacy scale right there and then, like, even if it’s a button on your landing page around, like, you know, send me a quick DM, like, letting me know what inspired. Like, there’s the surveys we have sometimes on landing pages of, like, what inspired you to do this thing. I prefer, like, just a bun.
Like, tell me. Right, at this stage of our business when we’re making those sales. Like, that doesn’t need to go through SurveyMonkey. Like, just send that straight to my inbox so that we can have that conversation now.
There’s this, it’s, like, so stupid symbol, and it works so well. I can’t remember who coined it, but it’s like I think it was, like, called the non webinar webinar or the webinar that doesn’t matter. And it was, like, someone who is running webinar funnels just for the purpose of starting DM conversations, and it’s almost like the webinar itself didn’t even matter. Right?
And, of course, it did matter. There was a legit webinar there. But the whole purpose was, like, sign up for the webinar. You know you have someone who is resonating with the messaging around the webinar, and then just get them into that one on one conversation right away.
Right? Like, what inspired you to join? Right? Like, where do you think you might be weak when it comes to this?
Right? And get into that exploratory conversation.
And that person had more conversions happening from people who didn’t even see the webinar. Right? It was just a right? So don’t insist on just because we’ve crafted these, like, amazing webinars and workshops with all the right diagnostics, like, don’t insist on that being the only way someone could come to work with you. Right? Mhmm. Like yeah.
Okay. Cool. Thank you. And I have another question, but I’ll let Joseph go. And if there’s time, I’ll ask another.
For sure.
Thanks, Joseph.
Go for it, Joseph.
Ryan, that was awesome.
So how like, what does planning your marketing like, your funnel automation look like now? Like, considering what you like like like you said, you know, like, your training has completely changed.
And today, you showed us that, like, that initial first email.
Mhmm. But I guess what does, like, what does planning the automation look like like for you now? Or, like, do or does the workbook cover that?
So it doesn’t go deeper than this template. So Okay. I mean, I could go through kinda, like, what my basic funnels look like. Right? Or we could make it more specific to something you’re working on. Do you have a preference on that?
Or do you wanna just, like For now, if you can just skip the sketch of, like, what your kind of basic information is now because I don’t have something specific at the moment.
Yeah. So, yeah, I tell you, a lot of it still comes back to this concept of automated intimacy that was the theme of a program I created a few years ago. And it’s essentially you have your emails, which are I call them, like, marketing scaffolding. Right?
They’re gonna do what they do. Right? But I can’t assume that my email sequence is going to coach that whole conversion. Right?
Like, you can’t assume someone’s gonna open up every email. Right? And, like, in twenty fifteen, people would say, like, in email number one, I’m gonna coach this belief. In email two, this one.
In email three, I’m gonna give them the FAQ. Right? And there’s this, like, weird assumption that someone’s actually reading through everything lit in a linear order. Right?
So, essentially, what my marketing looks like right now is the first forty eight hours are when I’m really trying to get that ascension right into a one on one conversation.
There’s been a big shift from, once again, like, free webinars and free lead magnets to paid even if it’s, like, really low ticket and essentially trying to get that first contact via myself one on one or someone on my team one on one to talk to that lead within the first day or two, even in a very, like, general wanna make sure you have everything set up. Right?
And the quicker I could get engaged in a real dynamic conversation, essentially, the better. So another way this is done, lead scoring used to be a really big piece part of this. It still is for clients who have a lot bigger lead flow.
But on a kind of, like, five to seven day automated sequence or even a live launch, right, I’m definitely scoring certain actions they’re taking even if it’s just email opens. And once they cross a certain threshold, definitely taking that as a signal of intent and once again reaching out dynamically. Right? Saying, hey.
Notice that you’ve probably been, you know, watching this workshop or taking this action. Just wanna make sure you’re all set up. Let me know if you have any questions. Right?
So it’s essentially letting your marketing coach the conversion to whatever degree it can and then injecting those personal reach outs just at strategic touch points. And that’s just gonna look differently depending on what your bandwidth is, what your team looks like, what your lead flow looks like, but there’s always gonna be a way to at least make sure that your most high intent leads don’t get left to just the automated funnel. Does that make sense at a high level?
That does. Thank you. Yeah. If if the leads obviously, we want all these leads to convert. Mhmm. They should, as you said. If they don’t, what do you do with them after that forty eight hours?
Yeah. So there’s still, of course, like my sequences don’t just end at forty eight hours. Right? Usually, like, the evergreen funnels, when I’m trying to get them to take that next action, will be that standard five, seven, ten days, right, and different emails that have different angles, right, different approaches, you know, your typical, here are the questions other people who said yes asked, right, certain closing emails, certain urgency emails. So all that still plays out.
I’m just not relying on that to do all the work. Right? I’m really establishing as much one on one contact throughout that as possible.
Yeah. That’s awesome. Thanks so much, man. Appreciate it. Cool.
Yeah. My pleasure.
And I think I had the same same crib. Is that one, like, that collapses? Not crib. Sorry. Like, Ben.
It is. Yeah. Yeah. This is Yeah. This is the opposite. It’s also currently the, like, the bedroom for the baby right now.
Nice.
So I remember, like Yeah. My kid never actually used it except for one day when, like, I came home from work, and he used that plus, like, everything else he could find to barricade the doors and not let me in. So that was fun.
Marquette, man. Yikes.
Totally. Cool. Any other questions on this topic or any other topic?
Go ahead, Jess. You go first.
No. What he asked was my question, so that’s perfect.
I was just gonna say, what are the rest of the emails that come after that, and how are we thinking about them now versus what everybody was taught in twenty fourteen?
So Right.
Yeah. So So it’s always, like, assuming readiness and speed and movement is really kind of, like, the biggest change I’ve made in my own sequences even between now and twenty twenty. Right? It’s, like, just erring on the side of speed, not necessarily presumptuous.
Like, I’m not being obnoxious about it saying, like, you know, buy now, buy now, buy now. Right? But, like, assuming that I am meeting someone who is resourced and willing and desiring to move forward. Right?
So yeah.
And then, of course, like, the whole coaching of the conversion framework continues to play out. Right? It’s like, what can I assume about this person, right, who hasn’t taken that next action yet? Right?
And how can I coach them in that? So that’s essentially the sequence I would write after the main sales sequence is someone who said yes to this ad, right, opted in, opened up emails here, right, but didn’t take that action. What can I assume about them here? Right?
And that could be a form of a second chance email sequence. Right? Like, meeting them either in price objection, cost objection, time objection, you know, whatever it is. So yeah.
Like, I think one of one of the subject lines, like, yeah, one of the subject lines that worked really well, and I just keep reusing it because it’s so, like, multi multi usage, multipurpose is, like, you know, not a now thing, question mark. Right? Like, essentially taking that verbatim of, like, why someone wouldn’t take action now. Right?
And essentially reminding them, like, well, when I coach someone who thinks that this is not a now thing, I need to get them into the awareness that this being a later thing is more costly. Right? That it’s more of a now thing than they realize. Right?
That it won’t be as costly or time intensive to implement as they think. Right? So it’s essentially always where are they at now? Where are they at now?
Where are they at now? And how can I coach them through it?
I have a question.
What are the show up rates for webinars for, paid versus nonpaid?
So very broadly general general generally speaking.
Gosh. Like, I hesitate to even give, like, a standard, because it so depends on your relationship with the audience. Obviously, people who are coming from a warm list, whether it’s your, like, Instagram and people have been following you forever, or a cold Facebook ad, it’s gonna have totally different numbers. But you do wanna aim for somewhere into, like, twenty five to thirty percent for nonpaid.
That could be lower if it’s people, like, fresh off of a Facebook ad for sure.
And paid so paid, let me see. The last one we ran about, like, fifty to sixty percent if it was and that was at just ten bucks. It’s like a ten dollar workshop, and that literally doubled that conversion rate, right, of people showing up for it.
Yeah. And yeah. Anyway, I just I I love paid workshops now. I’ll just say that.
I love to say that. Yeah. Yeah. And what I love about the paid workshop model is versus the free workshop model.
So if on the free workshop model, you reach out with a one on one message, it feels more intrusive. Whereas on the paid, if it’s framed as a bonus, right, hybrid coaching, now it feels more valuable, and it is more valuable. So Yeah.
Wow. That’s awesome.
Yeah. Yep.
Thank you. My pleasure.
What an amazing book collection. I think you have at least two hundred and forty two there. Like, I’m just doing some rough math.
This is just one room, not including my Kindle stuff. I’m I’m a voracious reader.
Nice. Cool. Britney, I see your hand up.
Yeah.
Could you speak to what your favorite tech is right now to build your funnels? Are you building them yourself? Are you working with corporate clients who have their teams that you’re, you know, just then offloading the copy to? I’d kinda just like to know what people are using. What’s the what’s their favorite?
Yeah. Good question. Like, for any type of funnel in particular?
Not necessarily.
Mhmm.
Smaller clients who still like to essentially, like, do a lot of things themselves, simpler text stacks.
A lot of people have migrated off of ActiveCampaign onto, like, GoHighLevel and Kajabi and stuff like that.
Let me see. What are people using right now? Like I mean, it’s so varied.
HubSpot, I’ve always loved that for essentially, like, getting to the pipelines, getting just really clear tracking and really clear, notes on every lead that enters that system. That’s been phenomenal.
Typically, I don’t love managing HubSpot stuff myself.
But, yeah, most clients who have a good tech wizard on their team, amazing.
Let me see. What else?
Webinars have just like webinars are so varied. I like Zoom webinars personally. It just feels more familiar, less Internet marketing y marketing y. Yes.
Email marketing, I mean, ActiveCampaign, still use that quite a bit.
But, yeah, I don’t know. Yeah. It’s a mix.
Yeah. How are you happy with Go HighLevel when you use it? I mean, is anyone using HighLevel right now?
And I’m using it for some of my brands.
Yeah. Like, for the price point, I like it.
I have a really I mean, I’ll say I have a really good, like, Go high level designer automation person, so that really helps.
One of my, like, biggest complaints about it was, like, you know how, like, every page builder, like, makes you feel like, oh, that’s a Go high level page. Oh, that’s a ClickFunnels page. Like, that’s always been my biggest objection.
But, with a good designer, you’re definitely able to get, like, pages up to spec. So, like yeah. What I’ve been able to do with GoHighLevel is essentially, like, take pages that have been, like, custom built on WordPress or whatever, like, beautiful pages, and just tell my GoHighLevel person, like, can you recreate this, like, as close as possible? And that has been, like, an amazing hack.
So, yeah, I like it. Go high level has worked. I haven’t had too many, like, problems with it, and it’s definitely gotten the job done. But I also know other people who have complained about it being, like, unreliable or wonky, at times, but I just haven’t really, yeah, I haven’t really kind of fallen into that problem yet myself.
For clients that are, you know, doing around twenty million a year, so they’re kind of not like a small start up or Mhmm. Whatever. I guess, what tech would you recommend for them if they’re not already if they don’t already have, like, an in house thing?
Oh, for what kind of marketing?
Like, a utilities provider, multifamily. So, essentially, they would be targeting managers of multifamily who are in charge of utility billing.
Okay.
I mean, at that level, probably something like HubSpot, probably something really robust.
I definitely wouldn’t mess around with, like, a go high level at that level Go high level at that level.
No. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t yeah. Yep.
Mhmm.
Thanks.
Of course.
I also have clients, like, totally different space. Right? But, like, even in that, like, eight figure range, like, I have clients who literally work with GoHighLevel and Instagram. Right?
And that’s their entire tech stack. So, yeah, it really depends on, like, where are your leads coming from, what that sales process is, what those, like, sales cycles are, and how much information needs to be, like, collected, gathered, stored, and acted upon throughout that cycle. So that’s probably the bigger determinant than, strictly revenue levels. But yeah.
I’m just finding that I I’m having good success finding the client. I have a strong understanding of the strategy, but then the tech, like, it just all goes to hell. So I’m just trying to figure out, like, how to what do I need to learn about that aspect so that I can be more Mhmm. Throughout the whole process, you know, because it’s like, you don’t delay and just the strategy doesn’t matter. Right?
To what degree do you feel like you need to be taking ownership of the tech and the tech choices?
I guess that’s sort of what I’m trying to figure out. Like, I have my my clients right now are sort of all the way from very small startup to that twenty million ish a year in revenue. And so I’m just trying to figure out how to standardize an offer that I can feel great about without Mhmm. Stress of things not working.
Yeah. Totally.
In general, like, do you consider yourself, like, pretty techie? Do you enjoy learning different systems and implementing on that level?
I don’t love it, but I’m facing the facts. Right? Like, I like being competent. So, yeah, I would prefer to stay in strategy messaging word land all day long.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
But I just think the more you know, it’s just I’d like to be fluid.
Totally.
I mean, there are a lot of people who, like, obviously thrive as automation experts that love working in those systems. Right?
These are good friends to have nearby for sure.
I could certainly see possibilities, right, of your product as services and your offerings having with tech support and implementation and without. Right?
And the ones with having collaborations, having a certain partner that fulfills on that might help keep you in the zone of what you’re really good at, because it could take a lot of energy and a lot of time and a lot of, like, learning and messing around time to get, quote, unquote, masterful at these systems. Right? And these systems, of course, change from client to client, so it might be a inevitable game.
Collaborating, and that’s where I’m suffering a little bit is because I thought anyway, I just need to make a switch with the person I’m collaborating with probably. Because I don’t wanna do it, but I need to know enough about it that I’m Mhmm.
Yeah. For sure.
Makes sense. What Well, let me know if ever there’s, like, any systems you’re looking for, like, a certain, tech collaborator on, because I know, you know, I know a lot of people who work with IKEA or ActiveCampaign or GoHighLevel.
But, yeah, keep me posted for sure.
Cool. Joseph.
I’m back. If, and if so, yeah, my my question is, how do you how are you optimizing your funnel these days?
And if it’s easier to just, like, send me to a resource that you have, like Mhmm.
That’s totally cool too.
But but yeah. Because you mentioned, like, you are once someone doesn’t, like if they don’t necessarily act on the offer right away, you know, like, you’re still selling them. You’re dropping them into your flow. You’re still testing different angles and things. So how are you yeah. What is optimizing your funnel look like for you?
Yeah. That’s a really good question.
Oh, so many different, like, competing ideologies around this. One thing that I’ll always ask first is you know? I I run a lot of, like, cold traffic from, like, ads, and I’ll always look back at that ad level of, like, am I targeting someone who is definitely problem aware, definitely motivated, and seeking a solution? Right? So those are the first questions I’ll ask myself, and sometimes I’ll so the annoying thing there is sometimes, like, the ad creatives that are less direct in that languaging will perform better and get lower CPLs than the ones that are, like, really hard and direct about, like, this is what you’re facing and very, like, presumptive of that.
But the ones that are looser perform less well down funnel. Right? So one of the places I’ll optimize is essentially, like, if I know that I have something here. Right?
If I’ve gotten sales, right, and I’ve gone through an exercise of what is true about the people who said yes, essentially creating, like, an anatomy of a buyer. Not a hypothesis, but these are my actuals. These are people who bought. I will reverse engineer who they are and put that top of funnel, right, and just try to get more people into there.
So that’s typically it’s like I tend to optimize back at the top always. I don’t mess around a lot on the in betweens until I’ve really optimized my top funnel to make sure I’m getting the right people in that even give me right data and not false negatives. Right? Like, if my sales page is converting at sub one percent, but I don’t even have the right people coming in on it, then my sales page isn’t actually converting at one percent.
Right? And I’ve seen way too many people spend a lot of time trying to, like, you know, change the headline, change the price point, change, like, everything about their sales page when, like, yeah. Most of the time, it’s a targeting targeting thing, in my view, at least. That’s, that’s one perspective out of one perspective out of possibly many.
But, yeah.
Oh, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.
Mhmm.
Yeah. I know, like, during a freelance intensive optimization came up a little bit, and one of the things Joe was talking about was, like like, you know, cut one one possible rule of thumb is starting at the, you know, closest to the actual conversion and, like, working backwards from there. But what you’re saying makes a lot of sense too, certainly, especially for ad campaigns.
Mhmm.
But, yeah, that’s that’s helpful. Thanks.
Yeah. No problem. Like, I’ve seen the same sales page convert at sub one percent, convert at, you know, three to five percent just by changing targeting. Right? So it’s like Wow. I know.
Yeah. It’s like and it makes total sense. Right? It’s like Yeah. Like, in the real world, like, you know, if you just have the wrong people walking into your store, you could have the best salespeople there.
Right? You could have, like, the best displays, the best everything. And yeah, so just dialing in the precision on those top of funnel ads, paying a getting a little less concerned about your CPLs, especially at the beginning, like your cost per leads. Like, a lot of, like, people will optimize for lower CPLs, right, which makes sense because you don’t wanna see so many dollars, like, flying out the window there.
But, yeah, I’d say, like, the place I have the most fun optimizing is just that ad creative, that ad copy. Right? Making it so direct, so clear, so like, it’s either gonna be hyper relevant or hyper irrelevant. But it gives me the confidence that everyone coming into that ecosystem is ready for a conversation about it, right, has this problem that I’m so specifically and presumptively talking about, right, and is so ready to move forward.
So, yeah, that’s my hack for that.
Yeah. I love that. That’s awesome.
Cool.
Yeah. Dane Kennedy used to say that all the time. The first step was the market.
Yeah.
You know, he says the market, the message match.
Right? He always says the first step is the market.
He said it with a better mustache too, I think. Like, list offer copy. Indeed. It always comes back down to, like, these fundamentals at the end of the day.
But, yeah, what I love about, like, list when it comes to, quote, unquote, cold traffic. Right? And I don’t like, cold is such a vague term, but, like, yeah, you get to choose your list, right, essentially with ads.
You don’t get to choose your list with a general newsletter. You don’t really get to choose your list with a website. Right? People, you know, find you in different ways. But you get to choose your list with ads based on, you know, your ad creative. So, yeah, it’s fun.
Cool. Cool. Are we complete for today?
Sweet. Britney, I love your, cupboard handles. I don’t know why they’re catching my eye.
Thanks. Random thing.
I think, restoration, maybe.
Sounds good.
Yeah. Is that your is that your office, Britney? Yeah.
I hope it’s nice.
Nice.
Thanks. Hope everyone’s having a good New Year. Appreciate the support.
Yeah. Appreciate y’all showing up for this one on January second. Fun little crew. And, yeah, have an amazing rest of the week, and I’ll catch you soon.
Thanks.
Thanks so much, Ryan.
No problem. Bye.
You guys.
Transcript
Sweet. Alright. We’re gonna dive in. So this is, like, our first call post all that glorious goal setting we did back in December.
December. Yeah. How is that for everybody? Any, like, lingering questions from the goal setting marathon?
Anything to share there?
I think it was good because now, you know, how everyone’s, oh, New Year’s resolutions. You know? I’ve already had it all set, and I’m just rolling right into it.
So Sweet.
Amazing. Beautiful.
My mind is racing.
I know the feeling.
Cool. Sweet. Alright. Let’s dive in. I’m gonna pull up this keynote.
Gosh. You take, like, ten days off from Zoom calls, and you get so rusty, and you forget where the share button is. It’s like relearning tech.
There we go.
Sweet. Before I kick it, who here has taken either ten x launches or ten x sales pages before?
Sweet. We got a few hands up. Sweet. Alright. So definitely not a prerequisite, but, good to know.
So this is our first session of January. It’s gonna be all about engaging and nurturing new leads. This one is all about how to do so with what is affectionately known as the coaching of the conversion method and a very specific confirmation email template that y’all, may have already seen it in the workbook. If not, we’ll see momentarily.
So super, super brief coaching the conversion primer. This is something I’ve typically taught in, like, you know, hour long plus sessions. So this is the two minute version of it. But, essentially, it goes like this.
The version of your prospect who opted in to your funnel, to your lead magnet, to whatever it is that brought them into your ecosystem is not the same version that says yes to your core offer. Right? And there are a series of milestones, which may come in the form of certain beliefs that they now have, certain states, things they now feel, whether that is feeling encouraged, empowered, optimistic, certain awarenesses, things they are aware of now that they weren’t aware of a few minutes ago or a few weeks a few weeks ago and certain micro actions that they’ve taken. And all these things are needed to bridge what I call a pre customer, someone who comes into your ecosystem into a customer, someone who is a natural yes to your thing and your marketing and the messaging structures you use within it are essentially tools to bridge the gap via a process that we call coaching the conversion.
I said we call coaching the conversion, but I’m really speak for myself.
One second.
Do not eat almond before a call. Those things get stuck in, like I’m just gonna call it the tracheal cavity cavity tracheal cavity as if I’ve taken premed classes, which I haven’t. I don’t know. I think I totally made up made that up. The tracheal cavity.
Cool. So I have an unreasonable completely unreasonable because it’s impossible, but it’s an unreasonable belief that every lead who enters a conversion ecosystem, aka funnel, should convert. Like, I always get surprised. I’m like, why isn’t everyone who’s coming into this funnel converting?
It makes no sense to me. So I have this unreasonable belief that everyone who comes into our funnel, especially if we’ve done our job in targeting that top of funnel effectively, targeting people who actually have that moment of high ascension, that problem we’re talking about, people who truly desire that solution we’re talking about, I have this unreasonable belief that absolutely everybody should convert, and I get, like, almost insulted when one person doesn’t buy. And one on one sales tells us that, yeah, we should raise our standards. Thirty to sixty percent should be expected.
Right? This is what a typical one on one salesperson will convert out of warm leads. Right?
So that is a far cry from, I don’t know, the one to three percent that, you know, automated funnels or non one on one sales funnels produce that.
So this is a classic case of aim for ten x, right, and be cool with two to three x of typical conversion rates. Right? And this is essentially where the whole coaching to conversion method was birthed from, was me listening to a ton of recordings from one on one salespeople converting at upwards of fifty percent and being like, dang. Wouldn’t it be cool if we could do that at scale? Like, why should we be settling for one to three percent when people who are in these dynamic one on one scenarios with the same type of leads that our marketing is attracting are closing at thirty, fifty, sixty percent.
So coaching the conversion, it plays out across different assets, different types of funnels.
Ten x launches was the first course we released on it, which essentially coached the conversion through a launch. Someone enters your launch. They go through the prelaunch. They go through the actual launch. The cart closed, and we’re coaching different states, awarenesses, beliefs throughout that.
Ten x sales pages, which you all have access to, coaches the conversion vertically. Right? Pre customer, someone who lands on your page, sees the hero section. Customer, someone who gets to the end of it, clicks buy now. Right? So that is coaching the conversion vertically.
Sales conversation, that’s another type of ecosystem. Engineering the enrollment is another course that teaches that. So coaching the conversion plays out across multiple different types of ecosystems, but they all involve the same process of digging into the very basic stuff. Right?
Where are they now? Pre customer. And as a marketer, you get to decide this to some extent through your targeting, which I think is an amazing thing. We get to define our pre customer.
How cool is that? Where do they need to be for a yes to be natural? Right? This is our customer.
This is our voice of customer research. What were those final states, those final awarenesses? What was the energy? What was the feeling of someone who said yes?
Right? What did they believe before they said yes? So we get to actually reverse engineer this. And how can I facilitate that transformation at scale?
And none of this is guesswork. Right? We have the data on the anatomy of what a customer is. We get to target who our pre customer is.
Right? And, therefore, we get to make certain hypotheses of what that transformation is and attempt to do it at scale. So coaching the conversion with new leads, fresh leads via email, I’d venture to say, is one of the most important conversion contacts. And your confirmation slash welcome email will nearly almost always be the most highly opened email, like, out of all the emails in your system.
Like, you could go into your ActiveCampaign. That first email that gets sent is typically the one that’s gonna have the highest open rate, except for the ones with the click baity subject lines that, you know I don’t know. I’ve seen some pretty good click baity emails in my time. But, yeah, you’re gonna get a lot of eyeballs on this, a lot of attention and awareness on this one.
Definitely a lot more in email one than email number two, so it’s it’s gotta pull its weight. It’s gotta earn its real estate in your funnel. It will also set the tone of your relationship with your prospect. It’s typically where they decide if you’re gonna be the friend zoned person, the person who puts out great content that they love, the person who sends great newsletters but they never actually buy from, or the person who gets fiercely compensated.
So this is really a big tone setter in that regard.
Alright. Some high level principles when it comes to coaching, the conversion, and a confirmation email. So the more specific and intent based the opt in, the easier it is to coach the next step. And I’ll give you some really clear examples.
So if someone opts in for a workshop called how to make ten k per month as a freelancer in twenty twenty five, that’s excellent. Right? You know their goal. You know what they’re signing up for.
Versus a lead magnet on things every copywriter should know about selling. That’s great. That’s kind of mid. That’s middle ground.
Versus the best copywriter newsletter ever. Right? Vague, general, broad. You have no way of knowing who that pre customer is when they opt in for that.
Right?
So in my experience, a paid low ticket opt in, even if it’s a workshop that costs five dollars, will always almost always signal stronger intent and commitment than a free webinar or a free report. That’s why I love, love, love, love, love implementing and working with paid low ticket workshops.
Even things that people have typically used for free, I love just making it paid. It helps us clearly define who that pre customer is when someone actually takes out their credit card to even exchange five bucks.
One thing I will note, after years of trying to get people to acknowledge this fact, right, it is almost impossible to coach the conversion off of a general newsletter opt in. Right? Like, it can’t be done. There are too many assumptions and stretches you’re making on a general newsletter opt in.
So before you do that, you definitely need to segment that list, segment those leads, get them to raise their hand, and define themselves as as a certain type of pre customer. Right? So we do have templates for that. I think I taught this inside, CSP early in twenty twenty four.
But you could definitely look for the coffee date email template. That’s a really good one for segmenting your list and getting general opt ins to define themselves as something more specific where you can then coach the conversion in a more intentional and direct way.
And this is the biggest principle.
Essentially, the better your top of funnel targeting is, especially via ad creative. If you’re ad creative, if your Instagram reels, if your LinkedIn post could speak so specifically, right, to that top of funnel avatar, the more conversion milestones will heart will have already been met. So a conversion milestone, for example, is someone having a moment of high attention. Right? Being aware of a moment that they no longer want to experience with respects to that problem.
Another milestone is them being aware of certain solutions. Another milestone is them having tried certain things that haven’t worked. Right?
The more you can meet someone who’s already gone through that, the less you actually have to coach, the less steps within that journey that your marketing is responsible to lead them through. And it is really expensive and really time consuming to lead someone through an entire journey. Right? So the biggest hack you can give yourself is to begin that journey, begin that pre customer journey a little further down that line. Right? And your top of funnel targeting, the ad creative, the LinkedIn post, the Instagram reel is essentially what makes your copy have to work less hard down the line.
So your tofu targeting, in a perfect world, this is the first thing I would audit right before I write any email sequence for anybody. Right? Is are we making sure that we are bringing the right people into this funnel? And by right people, not just meaning people who have this problem, but people who are aware of it.
Right? I’m aware, moment of high tension, things that they absolutely no longer want to experience again in their lifetimes, that they have a known and desired outcome and resonate with what I call the moment of heightened pleasure. They know what success looks like, and they’re committed to it because they have that frustration and confusion within that gap. So this is all super basic, but it’s all worth returning to when it comes to our top of funnel targeting.
Right? The more of these boxes we could check off and the more intense these things are true for the people we’re targeting, the less hard our copy is gonna have to work. So when this is true, when we’ve checked these boxes, when our top of funnel marketing is dialed in, then your confirmation email can coach what I call the big three. But before we get into that, few quick rules more than ever.
Forget everything you’ve learned about nurturing in twenty twenty fourteen when the world moves slower and meta algorithms didn’t show your prospect ads for your competitors three minutes later. So this is a thing now more than ever. Now that the algorithms for ad platforms are getting so smart and so dialed in, Essentially, if someone opts in to your lead magnet, opts into your workshop, they’re going to be getting ads for your competitors a few minutes later on their feeds. Right?
So this is permission to move faster than you would otherwise. Right? Most marketers think they need to warm up cold leads, quote, unquote, when in reality, if they’ve targeted their top of funnel properly, they need to keep warm leads hot and use that fire to coach progress towards a solution. So always on the side of assuming movement and readiness and siding with speed.
Once again, time delay stagnancy is your enemy, especially when your prospect, your leads are gonna be getting presented other options, other solutions from your competitors literally within seconds or minutes. So unless your primary goal is to build a media company or a newsletter or an influencer brand, do not lead with your backstory. Email one shouldn’t just be, you know, an introduction about you. It shouldn’t just be authority content that is disconnected to the problem that the top of funnel piece or content or ad suggested that they have.
Right? So a very easy hack here to kinda balance the two. I love putting any authority content, whether it’s, like, books you’ve written or podcasts you’ve appeared on, or any other type of, like, backstory stuff you have in your email signature. That way you have, like, the passive credibility and authority content that they could just kind of, like, click through if they truly desire that.
But once they enter your funnel, if you’ve done your targeting right, you’re really trying to establish movement towards that end state.
So the big three, you can think of this big three as a source code, right, where you can use any tactic, any strategy, any messaging structure within your arsenal to coach them. It’s essentially these are three milestones, three states that you get to coach, and you get to use the tools available to you. You get to get creative about how you structure emails as long as they’re establishing these three. So the first one is coaching relevance because these are a few of the questions your prospect is gonna ask immediately, whether they’re consciously asking themselves this in their head or they are subconsciously making sure there’s a match here. Right? Am I in the right spot?
Is this message mirroring back my exact moment of highest tension that I want to escape? Is this relevant?
Is this message mirroring back the moment of heightened pleasure or moment of highest pleasure I want to achieve?
Is this message meeting me in what I’ve already done, tried, and failed at? And is this message pointing to an offer, opportunity, or next step that gives me new hope? Right? So if you get a yes to all five of these, you have coached relevance, and you need to coach this right off the bat. Do not waste time. Do not send out any other messaging, propping yourself up as an authority, positioning your brand until you’ve coached relevance.
Next is resonance. Right? Do they resonate with you, with your assessment of them, with your diagnosis of the problem, with your unique solution, and with your understanding and empathy of the entire situational gestalt? So one of the things I love to do in my marketing is talking about the stakes involved, the second degree effects of the main problem, right, the secret fears that they have around it. So really get dimensional about how problems appear in people’s lives, right, and get resonance around what you are mirroring back to them. And then the most important is coaching response ability, their ability to respond, their willingness to respond.
Making a purchase, saying yes, is an action. That is a response. Right? If we could get them to start taking microactions right away, ascending in the intimacy between what you’re doing, right, and them.
Right? So that could look like watching a paid workshop that they just bought. Right? That could mean engaging in a direct message or an Instagram chat or taking an assessment via score app or interact or a quiz or replying to a personal video message or replying to the email or booking call.
Essentially, what we are coaching on that very first email is can we get them to take that next action with us. Right? Not later, not on email number two when open rates have gone down anywhere between thirty thirty to fifty percent, but can we get can we get that next monumental action right here on the first email? So this is a little bit of extra theory.
This is something I created, like, a few years ago in a program that was called automated in intimacy. I can’t use that anymore because AI has totally taken on different dimensions. But, essentially, we’re trying to move people to this top right quadrant. Right?
The majority of sales happen as touch points ascend in intimacy and dynamism. Right? So we have a lot of marketing that exists in the bottom left quadrant. This is static.
It’s a one way dialogue. Right? And it’s impersonal. It’s one to many. But the more we move to that top right, the more we see higher and higher conversion rates.
Right? So this is just a little bit of an extra framework to see if you can get that next touch point to be more intimate than their initial one. Can you get any form of two way dialogue, dynamic dialogue?
And, essentially, that is one way to coach the conversion via greater intimacy.
So let’s put it all together. This is called the perfect confirmation email template, and it’s really simple. It’s, like, two hundred and fifty words that incorporates all this, you know, sciency stuff. It’s not even sciency.
I don’t even know what to call it. But, yeah, this is what incorporates everything we just talked about. So step one is to confirm and celebrate the opt in action or the event, right, to just mirroring back the action they just took. So this is one I wrote recently for a paid workshop paid workshop opt in.
That’s right. Cool. So hey. And then I blanked out the name. My team just nudged me to let me know you claimed a spot in the Art Money Power workshop.
Right? So just mirroring back what they just did. Now we have this whole section on coaching relevancy, which probably means so that’s a really good segue into this section for coaching relevancy.
That like the five hundred plus others who’ve said, hell yes, and now we mirror back. Right? Who they are. You’re an established fine artist who wants to sell more art pieces in twenty twenty five at higher prices.
That has you proving all dem doubters wrong as you sign a lease for that industrial loft with the exposed brick. Right? Little moment of highest pleasure there. It also means that you’re probably so effing done with trying to prove yourself to the leeches of the industry.
So moment of highest tension stuff. The agents who don’t return your calls. The art galleries who take a crazy cut and return your untold pieces with nasty stains and, oh my god, are there someone’s greasy ass fingerprints. Right?
Real moment of highest tension information we get from our voice of customer data. The art contest judged by other grad school burnouts who probably chat GPT their feedback without even looking because what they wrote makes no effing sense, and all the other disempowering ways the pick me, choose me, love me art industry has robbed you of your profits and your power.
So after reading this, like, section of maybe a hundred and a hundred and fifty words, right, there is zero chance anyone reading this would find this would essentially not know whether this was relevant for them. It’s either gonna be hyper relevant, like hyper agreement, or very clear that this isn’t for them. Right? So this is about coaching relevancy.
Next, coaching resonance. So a lot of this will have already established some resonance, but we wanna create even more resonance right around the new way of doing things. So if you caught yourself nodding, then you probably also be beyond stoked to learn and apply the same direct to customer luxury strategies that my students are using to attract kind collectors, cut out the middleman, and cash five bigger checks on the regular while finally knowing they’ve made it. Right?
So resonance around their end goal, resonance around the method for doing it. And then we coach responsibility, encouraging that next step, that next ascension on that paid spectrum or that paid, framework that we just went through. Now here’s the deal. If you close this email, then that dream remains just that, a dream.
Fun to pay and should be to live. But if this whole combo feels hyper relevant and you’re committed to making twenty twin twenty twenty five a living master masterpiece, then I highly recommend that you, one, watch the art money power workshop right away. So that is one form of coaching responsibility. And then the next, DM me power on Instagram to kick start your seventy two hour hybrid coaching and get a little unannounced bonus gift.
Trust me. You’ll love it. So I love adding a little bit of a teaser, a little unexpected gift for them taking an action that has sent them on the intimacy scale. So this is one tactic if you’re doing any form of evergreen workshops, evergreen webinars that I absolutely love.
So on the page or the workshop, one of the bonuses is called hybrid coaching. Right? So we acknowledge that this is prerecorded.
And because they can’t answer questions live, part of it the bonus they get is they get seventy two hours of q and a and hybrid coaching with this person and her team. Right? So this is a way to engage that level of intimacy and real time coaching even within an evergreen workshop.
I’m crazy passionate about helping fine artists like you reclaim their power, dignity, and profit from traditional art establishment as long as you’re all in, I’m all in with you. Cool. So that is the template. Really simple, and it’s pulling a lot of weight in relatively little words.
And, yeah, this is where we really take advantage of the fact that this first email is going to be the most opened, and we get right to the point. We coach relevancy. We coach resonance, and this is really our main goal. Our main goal is to initiate that one on one chat right off the bat, to not waste time with that because we know that if we can get a lead to engage one on one with this coach and with her team, that the likelihood of that lead converting and moving to that final conversion is gonna be that much higher.
Cool. I think that’s all we got. So I’m gonna stop my share and open the floor for any questions, any, brainstorms you all wanna have about how you might apply this in your own business for your own funnels or for funnels you’re working on per client.
Right. Where can I find the workbook?
Did you get a did you get a copy of it in your email yet?
I didn’t even look at my email. I have to see. Yeah.
It’s possible it got sent out. If not, Okay. And I could probably let me see if I can just download a copy.
No. Message me on Slack if you can access it, and I should be able to, drop a file for you. Cool.
Sure.
No problem. Cody.
Okay. So with that template you just showed us, is that supposed to be in this workbook, or is that somewhere else?
That is supposed to be in the workbook. Yeah.
Okay. Because I’m looking at the workbook, and I don’t see it in here.
Alright. So it’s possible that an updated version just didn’t get updated, like, while the crew was on holiday break.
But Alright.
What I can definitely do is, yeah, I’ll download it, copy of it, and I’ll send it to you over on Slack.
Awesome. Thanks.
Cool. Jess?
Okay. I love this. One of the things that I’ve been noodling on while you were talking was, with the diagnostic.
Mhmm.
And so if you were running, like, a group diagnostic, and let’s say you’re running it as, like, a webinar, you know, you start collecting sign ups, like, a week out or something. What would you recommend that you put in the, like, the responsibility of, like, here’s what I need you to do? Like, what’s that action that you would recommend that we prompt them with?
Right. So if they’ve already opted in for a webinar, that would go through that. Right?
Mhmm.
That’s a good question. Right? So, like, if there is an assessment, like, a self assessment that they could go through beforehand, like, essentially, you could take parts of what you go through on that webinar and just give them a faster self assessment version of it, right, of, like Mhmm. If this is something that you just got their attention with, because it’s you’re doing this live, right, the webinar?
Yeah.
Right.
So one thing you wanna defend against on live webinars, right, is, like, people being really aware and really kind of, like, motivated to solve it in the moment they sign up, and then there’s this gap and this lag and life happens. Right? So, essentially, it’s kind of like a skip the line type thing. Right? It’s like, take this assess take this assessment here. If you see your own gaps and wanna talk about it, like, send over your results.
So, yeah, it’s like, take this assessment, and let me know, like, where you scored, where you noticed that you’re a little weaker. Right? And we can kick start that conversation sooner.
I like that. And because one of the things I think that was really impactful for me when I did Jo’s assessment thing was, like, her walking through it and explaining it all. And I feel like, especially with the diagnostic, I don’t know that it would have and, obviously, I don’t have, like, the assessment, but I feel like the the walking it through and explaining it, it would almost have to be, like, instead of showing up live to the webinar, here’s a recording of me, like, walking you through it, and then why would they show up live.
So I’m wondering if what are your thoughts on asking for, like, a DM or a reply to be like, what is, like, your experience with x, y, and zed problem to, a, get some, like, VOC, but then to also open up that conversation, like, in the upper quadrant there of, like, the sales quadrant that you shared.
Yeah. I think it’s a great idea. I think anything you could do to get that one on one conversation right away from that moment of I’ll I’ll call it a moment of heightened receptivity. Right?
They just saw your webinar landing page. It resonated. They’re like, yes to this. They signed up.
You’re top of mind in that moment. If they’re able to take that next action to ascend in the intimacy scale right there and then, like, even if it’s a button on your landing page around, like, you know, send me a quick DM, like, letting me know what inspired. Like, there’s the surveys we have sometimes on landing pages of, like, what inspired you to do this thing. I prefer, like, just a bun.
Like, tell me. Right, at this stage of our business when we’re making those sales. Like, that doesn’t need to go through SurveyMonkey. Like, just send that straight to my inbox so that we can have that conversation now.
There’s this, it’s, like, so stupid symbol, and it works so well. I can’t remember who coined it, but it’s like I think it was, like, called the non webinar webinar or the webinar that doesn’t matter. And it was, like, someone who is running webinar funnels just for the purpose of starting DM conversations, and it’s almost like the webinar itself didn’t even matter. Right?
And, of course, it did matter. There was a legit webinar there. But the whole purpose was, like, sign up for the webinar. You know you have someone who is resonating with the messaging around the webinar, and then just get them into that one on one conversation right away.
Right? Like, what inspired you to join? Right? Like, where do you think you might be weak when it comes to this?
Right? And get into that exploratory conversation.
And that person had more conversions happening from people who didn’t even see the webinar. Right? It was just a right? So don’t insist on just because we’ve crafted these, like, amazing webinars and workshops with all the right diagnostics, like, don’t insist on that being the only way someone could come to work with you. Right? Mhmm. Like yeah.
Okay. Cool. Thank you. And I have another question, but I’ll let Joseph go. And if there’s time, I’ll ask another.
For sure.
Thanks, Joseph.
Go for it, Joseph.
Ryan, that was awesome.
So how like, what does planning your marketing like, your funnel automation look like now? Like, considering what you like like like you said, you know, like, your training has completely changed.
And today, you showed us that, like, that initial first email.
Mhmm. But I guess what does, like, what does planning the automation look like like for you now? Or, like, do or does the workbook cover that?
So it doesn’t go deeper than this template. So Okay. I mean, I could go through kinda, like, what my basic funnels look like. Right? Or we could make it more specific to something you’re working on. Do you have a preference on that?
Or do you wanna just, like For now, if you can just skip the sketch of, like, what your kind of basic information is now because I don’t have something specific at the moment.
Yeah. So, yeah, I tell you, a lot of it still comes back to this concept of automated intimacy that was the theme of a program I created a few years ago. And it’s essentially you have your emails, which are I call them, like, marketing scaffolding. Right?
They’re gonna do what they do. Right? But I can’t assume that my email sequence is going to coach that whole conversion. Right?
Like, you can’t assume someone’s gonna open up every email. Right? And, like, in twenty fifteen, people would say, like, in email number one, I’m gonna coach this belief. In email two, this one.
In email three, I’m gonna give them the FAQ. Right? And there’s this, like, weird assumption that someone’s actually reading through everything lit in a linear order. Right?
So, essentially, what my marketing looks like right now is the first forty eight hours are when I’m really trying to get that ascension right into a one on one conversation.
There’s been a big shift from, once again, like, free webinars and free lead magnets to paid even if it’s, like, really low ticket and essentially trying to get that first contact via myself one on one or someone on my team one on one to talk to that lead within the first day or two, even in a very, like, general wanna make sure you have everything set up. Right?
And the quicker I could get engaged in a real dynamic conversation, essentially, the better. So another way this is done, lead scoring used to be a really big piece part of this. It still is for clients who have a lot bigger lead flow.
But on a kind of, like, five to seven day automated sequence or even a live launch, right, I’m definitely scoring certain actions they’re taking even if it’s just email opens. And once they cross a certain threshold, definitely taking that as a signal of intent and once again reaching out dynamically. Right? Saying, hey.
Notice that you’ve probably been, you know, watching this workshop or taking this action. Just wanna make sure you’re all set up. Let me know if you have any questions. Right?
So it’s essentially letting your marketing coach the conversion to whatever degree it can and then injecting those personal reach outs just at strategic touch points. And that’s just gonna look differently depending on what your bandwidth is, what your team looks like, what your lead flow looks like, but there’s always gonna be a way to at least make sure that your most high intent leads don’t get left to just the automated funnel. Does that make sense at a high level?
That does. Thank you. Yeah. If if the leads obviously, we want all these leads to convert. Mhmm. They should, as you said. If they don’t, what do you do with them after that forty eight hours?
Yeah. So there’s still, of course, like my sequences don’t just end at forty eight hours. Right? Usually, like, the evergreen funnels, when I’m trying to get them to take that next action, will be that standard five, seven, ten days, right, and different emails that have different angles, right, different approaches, you know, your typical, here are the questions other people who said yes asked, right, certain closing emails, certain urgency emails. So all that still plays out.
I’m just not relying on that to do all the work. Right? I’m really establishing as much one on one contact throughout that as possible.
Yeah. That’s awesome. Thanks so much, man. Appreciate it. Cool.
Yeah. My pleasure.
And I think I had the same same crib. Is that one, like, that collapses? Not crib. Sorry. Like, Ben.
It is. Yeah. Yeah. This is Yeah. This is the opposite. It’s also currently the, like, the bedroom for the baby right now.
Nice.
So I remember, like Yeah. My kid never actually used it except for one day when, like, I came home from work, and he used that plus, like, everything else he could find to barricade the doors and not let me in. So that was fun.
Marquette, man. Yikes.
Totally. Cool. Any other questions on this topic or any other topic?
Go ahead, Jess. You go first.
No. What he asked was my question, so that’s perfect.
I was just gonna say, what are the rest of the emails that come after that, and how are we thinking about them now versus what everybody was taught in twenty fourteen?
So Right.
Yeah. So So it’s always, like, assuming readiness and speed and movement is really kind of, like, the biggest change I’ve made in my own sequences even between now and twenty twenty. Right? It’s, like, just erring on the side of speed, not necessarily presumptuous.
Like, I’m not being obnoxious about it saying, like, you know, buy now, buy now, buy now. Right? But, like, assuming that I am meeting someone who is resourced and willing and desiring to move forward. Right?
So yeah.
And then, of course, like, the whole coaching of the conversion framework continues to play out. Right? It’s like, what can I assume about this person, right, who hasn’t taken that next action yet? Right?
And how can I coach them in that? So that’s essentially the sequence I would write after the main sales sequence is someone who said yes to this ad, right, opted in, opened up emails here, right, but didn’t take that action. What can I assume about them here? Right?
And that could be a form of a second chance email sequence. Right? Like, meeting them either in price objection, cost objection, time objection, you know, whatever it is. So yeah.
Like, I think one of one of the subject lines, like, yeah, one of the subject lines that worked really well, and I just keep reusing it because it’s so, like, multi multi usage, multipurpose is, like, you know, not a now thing, question mark. Right? Like, essentially taking that verbatim of, like, why someone wouldn’t take action now. Right?
And essentially reminding them, like, well, when I coach someone who thinks that this is not a now thing, I need to get them into the awareness that this being a later thing is more costly. Right? That it’s more of a now thing than they realize. Right?
That it won’t be as costly or time intensive to implement as they think. Right? So it’s essentially always where are they at now? Where are they at now?
Where are they at now? And how can I coach them through it?
I have a question.
What are the show up rates for webinars for, paid versus nonpaid?
So very broadly general general generally speaking.
Gosh. Like, I hesitate to even give, like, a standard, because it so depends on your relationship with the audience. Obviously, people who are coming from a warm list, whether it’s your, like, Instagram and people have been following you forever, or a cold Facebook ad, it’s gonna have totally different numbers. But you do wanna aim for somewhere into, like, twenty five to thirty percent for nonpaid.
That could be lower if it’s people, like, fresh off of a Facebook ad for sure.
And paid so paid, let me see. The last one we ran about, like, fifty to sixty percent if it was and that was at just ten bucks. It’s like a ten dollar workshop, and that literally doubled that conversion rate, right, of people showing up for it.
Yeah. And yeah. Anyway, I just I I love paid workshops now. I’ll just say that.
I love to say that. Yeah. Yeah. And what I love about the paid workshop model is versus the free workshop model.
So if on the free workshop model, you reach out with a one on one message, it feels more intrusive. Whereas on the paid, if it’s framed as a bonus, right, hybrid coaching, now it feels more valuable, and it is more valuable. So Yeah.
Wow. That’s awesome.
Yeah. Yep.
Thank you. My pleasure.
What an amazing book collection. I think you have at least two hundred and forty two there. Like, I’m just doing some rough math.
This is just one room, not including my Kindle stuff. I’m I’m a voracious reader.
Nice. Cool. Britney, I see your hand up.
Yeah.
Could you speak to what your favorite tech is right now to build your funnels? Are you building them yourself? Are you working with corporate clients who have their teams that you’re, you know, just then offloading the copy to? I’d kinda just like to know what people are using. What’s the what’s their favorite?
Yeah. Good question. Like, for any type of funnel in particular?
Not necessarily.
Mhmm.
Smaller clients who still like to essentially, like, do a lot of things themselves, simpler text stacks.
A lot of people have migrated off of ActiveCampaign onto, like, GoHighLevel and Kajabi and stuff like that.
Let me see. What are people using right now? Like I mean, it’s so varied.
HubSpot, I’ve always loved that for essentially, like, getting to the pipelines, getting just really clear tracking and really clear, notes on every lead that enters that system. That’s been phenomenal.
Typically, I don’t love managing HubSpot stuff myself.
But, yeah, most clients who have a good tech wizard on their team, amazing.
Let me see. What else?
Webinars have just like webinars are so varied. I like Zoom webinars personally. It just feels more familiar, less Internet marketing y marketing y. Yes.
Email marketing, I mean, ActiveCampaign, still use that quite a bit.
But, yeah, I don’t know. Yeah. It’s a mix.
Yeah. How are you happy with Go HighLevel when you use it? I mean, is anyone using HighLevel right now?
And I’m using it for some of my brands.
Yeah. Like, for the price point, I like it.
I have a really I mean, I’ll say I have a really good, like, Go high level designer automation person, so that really helps.
One of my, like, biggest complaints about it was, like, you know how, like, every page builder, like, makes you feel like, oh, that’s a Go high level page. Oh, that’s a ClickFunnels page. Like, that’s always been my biggest objection.
But, with a good designer, you’re definitely able to get, like, pages up to spec. So, like yeah. What I’ve been able to do with GoHighLevel is essentially, like, take pages that have been, like, custom built on WordPress or whatever, like, beautiful pages, and just tell my GoHighLevel person, like, can you recreate this, like, as close as possible? And that has been, like, an amazing hack.
So, yeah, I like it. Go high level has worked. I haven’t had too many, like, problems with it, and it’s definitely gotten the job done. But I also know other people who have complained about it being, like, unreliable or wonky, at times, but I just haven’t really, yeah, I haven’t really kind of fallen into that problem yet myself.
For clients that are, you know, doing around twenty million a year, so they’re kind of not like a small start up or Mhmm. Whatever. I guess, what tech would you recommend for them if they’re not already if they don’t already have, like, an in house thing?
Oh, for what kind of marketing?
Like, a utilities provider, multifamily. So, essentially, they would be targeting managers of multifamily who are in charge of utility billing.
Okay.
I mean, at that level, probably something like HubSpot, probably something really robust.
I definitely wouldn’t mess around with, like, a go high level at that level Go high level at that level.
No. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t yeah. Yep.
Mhmm.
Thanks.
Of course.
I also have clients, like, totally different space. Right? But, like, even in that, like, eight figure range, like, I have clients who literally work with GoHighLevel and Instagram. Right?
And that’s their entire tech stack. So, yeah, it really depends on, like, where are your leads coming from, what that sales process is, what those, like, sales cycles are, and how much information needs to be, like, collected, gathered, stored, and acted upon throughout that cycle. So that’s probably the bigger determinant than, strictly revenue levels. But yeah.
I’m just finding that I I’m having good success finding the client. I have a strong understanding of the strategy, but then the tech, like, it just all goes to hell. So I’m just trying to figure out, like, how to what do I need to learn about that aspect so that I can be more Mhmm. Throughout the whole process, you know, because it’s like, you don’t delay and just the strategy doesn’t matter. Right?
To what degree do you feel like you need to be taking ownership of the tech and the tech choices?
I guess that’s sort of what I’m trying to figure out. Like, I have my my clients right now are sort of all the way from very small startup to that twenty million ish a year in revenue. And so I’m just trying to figure out how to standardize an offer that I can feel great about without Mhmm. Stress of things not working.
Yeah. Totally.
In general, like, do you consider yourself, like, pretty techie? Do you enjoy learning different systems and implementing on that level?
I don’t love it, but I’m facing the facts. Right? Like, I like being competent. So, yeah, I would prefer to stay in strategy messaging word land all day long.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
But I just think the more you know, it’s just I’d like to be fluid.
Totally.
I mean, there are a lot of people who, like, obviously thrive as automation experts that love working in those systems. Right?
These are good friends to have nearby for sure.
I could certainly see possibilities, right, of your product as services and your offerings having with tech support and implementation and without. Right?
And the ones with having collaborations, having a certain partner that fulfills on that might help keep you in the zone of what you’re really good at, because it could take a lot of energy and a lot of time and a lot of, like, learning and messing around time to get, quote, unquote, masterful at these systems. Right? And these systems, of course, change from client to client, so it might be a inevitable game.
Collaborating, and that’s where I’m suffering a little bit is because I thought anyway, I just need to make a switch with the person I’m collaborating with probably. Because I don’t wanna do it, but I need to know enough about it that I’m Mhmm.
Yeah. For sure.
Makes sense. What Well, let me know if ever there’s, like, any systems you’re looking for, like, a certain, tech collaborator on, because I know, you know, I know a lot of people who work with IKEA or ActiveCampaign or GoHighLevel.
But, yeah, keep me posted for sure.
Cool. Joseph.
I’m back. If, and if so, yeah, my my question is, how do you how are you optimizing your funnel these days?
And if it’s easier to just, like, send me to a resource that you have, like Mhmm.
That’s totally cool too.
But but yeah. Because you mentioned, like, you are once someone doesn’t, like if they don’t necessarily act on the offer right away, you know, like, you’re still selling them. You’re dropping them into your flow. You’re still testing different angles and things. So how are you yeah. What is optimizing your funnel look like for you?
Yeah. That’s a really good question.
Oh, so many different, like, competing ideologies around this. One thing that I’ll always ask first is you know? I I run a lot of, like, cold traffic from, like, ads, and I’ll always look back at that ad level of, like, am I targeting someone who is definitely problem aware, definitely motivated, and seeking a solution? Right? So those are the first questions I’ll ask myself, and sometimes I’ll so the annoying thing there is sometimes, like, the ad creatives that are less direct in that languaging will perform better and get lower CPLs than the ones that are, like, really hard and direct about, like, this is what you’re facing and very, like, presumptive of that.
But the ones that are looser perform less well down funnel. Right? So one of the places I’ll optimize is essentially, like, if I know that I have something here. Right?
If I’ve gotten sales, right, and I’ve gone through an exercise of what is true about the people who said yes, essentially creating, like, an anatomy of a buyer. Not a hypothesis, but these are my actuals. These are people who bought. I will reverse engineer who they are and put that top of funnel, right, and just try to get more people into there.
So that’s typically it’s like I tend to optimize back at the top always. I don’t mess around a lot on the in betweens until I’ve really optimized my top funnel to make sure I’m getting the right people in that even give me right data and not false negatives. Right? Like, if my sales page is converting at sub one percent, but I don’t even have the right people coming in on it, then my sales page isn’t actually converting at one percent.
Right? And I’ve seen way too many people spend a lot of time trying to, like, you know, change the headline, change the price point, change, like, everything about their sales page when, like, yeah. Most of the time, it’s a targeting targeting thing, in my view, at least. That’s, that’s one perspective out of one perspective out of possibly many.
But, yeah.
Oh, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.
Mhmm.
Yeah. I know, like, during a freelance intensive optimization came up a little bit, and one of the things Joe was talking about was, like like, you know, cut one one possible rule of thumb is starting at the, you know, closest to the actual conversion and, like, working backwards from there. But what you’re saying makes a lot of sense too, certainly, especially for ad campaigns.
Mhmm.
But, yeah, that’s that’s helpful. Thanks.
Yeah. No problem. Like, I’ve seen the same sales page convert at sub one percent, convert at, you know, three to five percent just by changing targeting. Right? So it’s like Wow. I know.
Yeah. It’s like and it makes total sense. Right? It’s like Yeah. Like, in the real world, like, you know, if you just have the wrong people walking into your store, you could have the best salespeople there.
Right? You could have, like, the best displays, the best everything. And yeah, so just dialing in the precision on those top of funnel ads, paying a getting a little less concerned about your CPLs, especially at the beginning, like your cost per leads. Like, a lot of, like, people will optimize for lower CPLs, right, which makes sense because you don’t wanna see so many dollars, like, flying out the window there.
But, yeah, I’d say, like, the place I have the most fun optimizing is just that ad creative, that ad copy. Right? Making it so direct, so clear, so like, it’s either gonna be hyper relevant or hyper irrelevant. But it gives me the confidence that everyone coming into that ecosystem is ready for a conversation about it, right, has this problem that I’m so specifically and presumptively talking about, right, and is so ready to move forward.
So, yeah, that’s my hack for that.
Yeah. I love that. That’s awesome.
Cool.
Yeah. Dane Kennedy used to say that all the time. The first step was the market.
Yeah.
You know, he says the market, the message match.
Right? He always says the first step is the market.
He said it with a better mustache too, I think. Like, list offer copy. Indeed. It always comes back down to, like, these fundamentals at the end of the day.
But, yeah, what I love about, like, list when it comes to, quote, unquote, cold traffic. Right? And I don’t like, cold is such a vague term, but, like, yeah, you get to choose your list, right, essentially with ads.
You don’t get to choose your list with a general newsletter. You don’t really get to choose your list with a website. Right? People, you know, find you in different ways. But you get to choose your list with ads based on, you know, your ad creative. So, yeah, it’s fun.
Cool. Cool. Are we complete for today?
Sweet. Britney, I love your, cupboard handles. I don’t know why they’re catching my eye.
Thanks. Random thing.
I think, restoration, maybe.
Sounds good.
Yeah. Is that your is that your office, Britney? Yeah.
I hope it’s nice.
Nice.
Thanks. Hope everyone’s having a good New Year. Appreciate the support.
Yeah. Appreciate y’all showing up for this one on January second. Fun little crew. And, yeah, have an amazing rest of the week, and I’ll catch you soon.
Thanks.
Thanks so much, Ryan.
No problem. Bye.
You guys.
Q1 Goal Setting
Q1 Goal Setting
Transcript
Uum, alright we’re gonna dive in. I’m going to share the delightful, beautiful workbook, which I duplicated so that I could put my own unhinged thoughts on it without disturbing the master workbook.
So let’s do that.
Cool. Cool.
There we go. There we go.
Sweet.
Alright. Unhinged time.
This reminded me of, like, literally my first copywriting project ever in, like, twenty eleven, twenty twelve, and I had to write for this, like, fundraiser event that was, like, based on Mad Men.
And I needed to, like, write copy for this local event fundraiser.
And, I think, like, my tagline was something like, going mad never felt so good and something, like, really funny like that.
So going unhinged never felt so good. That doesn’t have the same ring to it. But y’all get the idea. So thirteen years later, we’re going mad. So big unhinged ideas.
I love these two books, and they synergize so well. Synergy. Synergy. Synergy. There’s a weird ass get on the word synergy.
But to go well together, vivid vision really encapsulates a lot of what, I had been doing unconsciously for a while. So I was, like, the master of a lifeless goals. Like, I started setting goals, like, a while ago, and they’d be on Google Doc, and they would be the things that I thought would have meaning. There would be missions and visions on there that I thought had meaning, and there was no, like, juice to it.
So, yeah, I think a mission and a vision must connect to a series, a multitude of real and enjoyable, fully charged moments that are trackable, realizable, real, and you could reflect back and say, holy fuck. That happened, and this felt amazing. And I really want you to be able to think about what those moments are in copy. I call those moments of heightened pleasure.
Right? These are real observable moments when the thing you want to achieve is achieved. Right?
And it’s not just this check mark, but this, oh, like, heart expanding, like, body vibrating holy fuck moment.
And I want y’all to be available to those holy fuck moments, and that may mean being less available for your holy fuck moments.
I know I still have somehow holy fuck no moments in my life, and it was very uncomfortable, initially setting boundaries on those fuck no moments. But, yeah, setting boundaries on your fuck no moment will appeal you to those fuck yeah moments.
So, one thing I will encourage you to lean into are what o what are those textures, those data points, and feeling points of that vivid vision manifested? What is actually happening in your reality? What are you going on the wind channel in Slack and being like, oh, I’m you’ll never guess what just happened, dot dot dot, and let us celebrate you in that with all these emojis, the raising emojis.
Income goals. Right? So I was initially the king of not caring about money until this. Right?
I’d be like, I’m good. I just enjoy my Starbucks and my apartment, and that’s enough. Right? So I was the king of saying, well, as long as I have enough or decent living, I’m good.
Right? And then I started connecting income goals to actual lifestyle moments that they would empower, and I’m gonna talk about those in a second.
And, yeah, I made myself available for those just by leaning into what those income goals actually represented. So, bonus points. I found a lot of similarities between Vivid Vision and this old school book from, like, I don’t know, like, the fifties or sixties, one of those, like, initial manifesting books, Feelings the Secret by Neville Goddard.
Not inventory reading. Just a little side note. It’s written in very antiquated language, but some really good stuff about seeing that end result, not just, like, in your mind, but actually feeling it. What does it feel like in your body when that thing happens?
How does that actually feel in your body when you get an email from Tony Robbins saying, do you wanna speak on my stage? And you’re like, no. I don’t, but I really do.
How does that feel? So lean into those realities as if they are already happening. Make yourself available for it. Make your nervous system available to it.
Train your nervous nervous system for these ten x moments that may initially have some contraction. Right? It may initially be an edge, but begin attuning you to what’s possible and leaning on the support here. Right?
And in your own, yeah, in your own daily life to get that support to expand. Because I think this container is about expanding and not about the play it safe goals. These are about the unhinged, slightly scary. Yes.
They’re initially gonna create contraction and fever in the body, and that is expected, and we could work with that. Those types of goals. Cool?
Sweet.
Ten x is easier than two x. Another one I’ve loved.
Big takeaways here is just, like, being in that fierce protection and advocacy of your vivid vision. You choose ten x, you are excluding so much bullshit. Right? And this is something that was so uncomfortable as a recovering people pleaser.
I remember my first year full time freelancing probably made somewhere around, like, I don’t know, forty to fifty k working with the local piano repair shop, the local massage studio. Right? All these local people that became friends. Right?
And then in my own ten x year, literal ten x year. Oh, gosh. It required so many noes. Like, nope.
Sorry. I don’t do that anymore. Right? Can’t do it. Right? Can’t make that exception.
So, yeah, I think being in fierce protection, right, of your vivid vision, like, falling in love with that vivid vision, treating it as you would a child or a pet or a dog or a cat or just something you really love and making it less personal. Right? Not not just your personal boundaries, but, like, go to bat for this vision that you get to nurture and bridge into reality. So fierce protect of it.
Awkward convos are always going to feel better than self betrayal when you give a yes, and then you essentially have that stinging, sensation in your gut of, like, did I say yes? Right? And you’re begrudgingly doing something you don’t wanna do. Yeah.
Let’s just not do those anymore. Let’s just, like, get rid of all of those in your life.
And, yeah, to me, that’s required for that ten x.
Ten x innovation. So this is such a dear topic to me. I feel like, yeah, I feel like a big part of my career has been on the innovation side. Essentially, right from the beginning, having that question of, like, what is the five minute mile for what I’m doing?
What is the five minute mile for, an email launch sequence? What is the five minute mile for a SaaS onboarding? What is the five minute mile for, an ecom product page being launched to market for the first time? Right?
So what are these moonshots? What are these five minute miles in the thing you do, and what can you do in your thing, right, with every new project that I call paid r and d? Right? What needs to be true for you to literally set the standard for what that thing looks like in your space.
Right? And that’s gonna require some testing. So I call that paid r and d, at least one thing you’re doing on every new project to try to push that needle a little bit further. So I’m gonna have more to share about this in twenty twenty five.
It’s a concept I’m still practicing. Literally just wrote, an ecom supplement product page that I strategically tried just two new things, two new things that I’ve never done before, never seen done before. So take all the best practices, you add one or two things with a clear hypothesis of this might work. Right?
Let’s test this out in this scenario.
So I’m gonna share more on that because this page I just wrote is converting at, like, thirteen percent, like, thirteen percent conversion, and that’s not on, like, an insignificant amount of clicks. So really exciting stuff to share there. But in your own projects, just test one new thing. Like, what is one new thing that if this works, I have something that no one else has.
Right? There’s the innovation piece. You’re either competing on innovation, like having a thing, a proven method, or extreme per tease is the other side of it. Like, being just so freaking good.
Right? Like, that that is what allows you to charge ten x. Right? But I think it’s a lot easier, predictable, and faster of a path to innovate in your space.
So, those are my little quick book summaries. I think, like, the little last motivating line is, like, so much can change in a year if you Right? Like, I’ve had years of massive growth, and then I’ve had years of just, like, hold forward and integrate what happened and optimize it. But those, like, explosive, like, eight to ten x years, gosh. Those aren’t the ones I look back on right now and be like, that year changed freaking everything. Like, these are life trajectory changing years, and we get to create if we’re ready for them, if we’re available for them. So that is my little recap there.
The can you imagine exercise, I’d love for us to be able to spend some time here. Right? This tracks back to what are these tangible moments, right, where this vision, where this ten x vision comes to life when you could be like, damn. That just happened.
When you could go on that Slack channel, that wind channel, and be like, this just happened. Right? So for me, right, like, my big thing, when I ten x wasn’t about income goals. I couldn’t just say I won half a million dollars a year for the hell of it.
I had to connect those to things that mattered, and these matterful things happened, and they were amazing. Right? So it was like, for me, that time I was at the Scandinavian Spa in the middle of the day, right, when it’s empty except for retirees, like, talking about retiree shit, and just making one k, right, from an automated course sale, like, it’s another day and it’s no big deal. Right?
Like, that was one of my, like, nervous system exhale. Right? This is what I want to be living. That’s what my ten x lifestyle looked like at the time in, I guess this was, like, twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen.
Twenty fifteen, I almost died from a stroke. So that was my year of, like, no. I’m just gonna radically chill, right, and enjoy that and enjoy what this big bump in income empowers me to do.
Another fun income goal that turned into a tangible reality that actually had a lot of, like, excitement in it. I don’t know why this motivated it, motivated me the way it did.
But one of my goals was to have enough cash saved up in reserve in my business checking account that just having it in a I think it was, like, a five percent high interest account could pay my monthly expenses. Like, how cool is that when your, interest on what is in your biz account could pay expenses. And granted, I wasn’t in a crazy scale mode. Right? That was, like, with a VA and some software, but still, like, that just made my life feel so light and exciting.
So that is an income goal baked into a tangible thing that just feels really light on my system.
What else? Right? So I was never a big, event person.
You know, typical introvert, extreme introvert. Right? But what I loved to do was, like, I loved to go deep with the clients I had. Right?
So that meant traveling. It meant getting on location. It meant doing VIP days. It meant, visiting their teams and then extending those trips for two to three days for chill time.
Right? So that might look like hikes and going to the beach. And I remember one year, I was in, like, Encinitas or Carlsbad, like, three times that year. Right?
And, like, there’s these gardens by a place called Swami Beach. Right? So it’s like the Yogananda Gardens or something and just beautiful gardens overlooking the ocean. And I’m like, I found my up there on the for the third time that year, and that was one of my, like, ah, I made it moments.
Right? This is becoming routine. Like, just taking a chill decompressing day after a client VIP day and staring up in the ocean.
So, and then you get to also have, like, guilt free, like, pride in some of your goals. Right? So, like, one of my, like, kinks when I first ten x was, like, walking into the bank. Right?
Like, I didn’t even have Stripe in my first year. Like, I would literally ask clients to send checks in the mail. Right? And I would show up to the bank teller with, like, these five figure checks, and they would have no freaking idea what I did.
And, Brendon, that’s kind of just, like, enjoyable sense of weird pride in that.
So, yeah, I’d love for us all to just take some time right now, like, lean into what these vivid ten x moments look like for you. Right? They are undoubtedly connected to growth goals, and especially growth and income and growth in mindset and within your capacity to lean into that because there is going to be some edge. So this is your time to write a few of these down.
Right? Maybe even just, like, one really clear, oof, I don’t know if I should say that goal. Right? One that kinda scares you to say out loud, and then maybe we’ll say it out loud because that’s what we do.
So I’m gonna stop my share.
Any questions about this exercise before we get going, or should I, like, queue up some music that y’all may or may not enjoy while we take a few minutes?
Get unhinged.
Oh, I was not expecting espresso for some reason. I thought I made something else. That hit me harder. Cool.
Alright. I’m gonna play some music. I’ve never been known as, like, the best party DJ. I’ve always been the person, like, they replace after one song, but that’s all good.
And we’ll give it about five minutes. And then how many people are on this call? We got close to twenty.
So, yeah, I think that’s gonna be enough time for at least one minute one minute each to declare that out loud. So we’re gonna do five minutes now, and then everyone gets to share and declare their big, unhinged, wild, feels scary to say aloud goal, or the year.
Cool.
Alright.
Cool. Welcome back, everyone.
So, I would love to hear everybody’s unhinged goal. Right? And I think it would be amazing for everyone to hear everyone’s unhinged goal.
That way, a, we know what it is. And, b, if you wanna add a little extra flavor, a little extra juice to it as someone is sharing it, I dare you, right, to just see them fully in that success, see them as fully capable, see them as fully in the realization of that, and celebrate them in that. Right? I think that would be an enjoyable, fun, and lovely thing to do. So, first one up, I think we’ve got about sixty to ninety seconds, each. So yeah.
Cool. Cody, you’re up.
Alright. So this year, I will, write and publish a best selling book, that will lead to speaking gigs, high profile collaborations, and media features.
My book will be the go to manual for growth marketers and ecom leaders, when it comes to scaling their business, with a funnel for specifically cold traffic, and it will establish me as a top authority in the space.
Love it. What is one defining moment where you will know you’re in the achievement of that?
I would say when the book is published because then I know that I actually followed through what I said I was gonna do.
Okay. Love it. Thanks for sharing, Cody. Next person up.
Okay. I’ll go.
Mine is I host a Greek vacation for ten days with my entire family in the UK and in South Africa.
We’ve got a yacht moored outside, private shifts, and plenty of exciting activities planned like hiking, snorkeling, and, of course, eating.
Love it. What are you eating?
Oh my god. Like, everything.
I I’ve never been to Greece, so whatever they eat.
Beautiful. Cool. Well, taste those flavors and taste the entire moment. Love it. Cool. Next up.
My moment is I’m on a Teams meeting with my bookkeeper who I think thinks I’m a little bit crazy, and he’s telling me that he has never seen a client’s finances transform as dramatically as mine have in the last twelve months, and then point out that I should probably buy a company car or something because, otherwise, I’m gonna have to be in a different tax bracket.
That is amazing. Yes.
And that car the car is a little, Volkswagen Cabriolet convertible.
Oh, so good. Yeah. I love it.
Like, you least unhinged car you could buy.
I mean, I’ve I’ve had it on my vision board since I was, like, seventeen.
So Oh, okay.
Alright. Fair enough.
Yeah.
I mean, it was like the cool dream car.
Love it.
Is Andrew up?
Is that me?
I think so.
Cool.
My moment is when the prospect says yes to my proposal for a ten thousand dollar monthly consulting retainer, and I and I almost feel kind of, like, guilty because it’s like it feels like, oh, that’s not enough. Like, I’m not let me just read what I wrote instead of trying to improvise. I can’t believe how little work I’ll actually have to do relative to the amount that I’m getting paid because they’re paying for my thinking, not for my time or effort. And I guess, a moment in that might be, like, telling my wife about, like, you know, that I got that signed and, like, oh my god. I’m not gonna have to do nearly as much work as I’ve done to make, you know, half that money in the past or something.
I love that. What I love about what you just shared is, like, you included feeling guilty in your vision and your goal, which is true to what that would look like for you right now. Right? So I think so I think, like, that’s amazing.
Like, lean into that. Lean into moments that, right now, feel like they might induce a little bit of, like, guilt. Right? So cool.
Awesome. Okay. So mine is finding the perfect home for my family, and being able to call up our real estate agent when we, like, signed it and just put an offer in right away and close within, like, a month.
And it’s, like, the perfect house for a family, so it’s in the city, which is more pricey than we would otherwise or normally choose, I guess.
And it’s, like, in a great school district.
It’s near family. It’s got everything for the kids, and then it’s just also a an amazing house to where we can just set up shop for the foreseeable future.
Mhmm. I love that.
Does that moment feel most realized to you, like, when you sign for the house, when you get the house, or even when you make the decision and, like, reach out to an agent and say, like, I’m available for this now?
But probably, like, when I reach out to the agent and say, k. I can close on it. Like, we can we can put it down today. Like, we’re ready today. And then, like, the final walk through as the papers are, like, being signed.
Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Keep, like, inviting, like, the energies from those two moments because they feel, like, really expansive and life giving. Cool.
Yeah. Thank you.
Okay.
I actually started this, exercise yesterday. So the ImagineWall is the house that I want in three years.
So it sits, in the mountains of the Blues.
We’re in the Grand Oregon, so we’re right at the base of the Blue Mountains. It’s gonna be lakeside. There is a lake up there.
Five acres of wooded beauty.
Very large pond with a huge wrap around porch.
The back, back porch is really large outdoor living space with its own fireplace looking out over the lake. So it’s a perfect spot for morning coffee or eating wine or whiskey.
Are we invited? Can we have the first IRL there?
We can. Yeah. So but the the goal for this is to pay seventy five percent cash from the business.
Amazing.
Beautiful. Well, I’m officially imagining us sitting around your fire, like, being like, look at all this land. And Yeah. Inevitably someone starts wolf howling because they can and then everyone does.
Yeah. This is a perfect perfect place for it.
Yeah. Who in this group kicks off the wolf howling? Like, who is most likely to initiate wolf howling?
There you go.
Abby put up her hand, and I was gonna say Abby. So I think it’s Abby.
I’m usually the last one to join the wolf howling. I’m like, fine. I’ll do it. Anyway cool. Amazing. Thanks, Michelle.
I guess I’m, I am so inspired by this book. I’ll tell you what.
My my big audacious goal for this year is one million dollars worth of revenue in my, copywriting agency with three copywriters, two VAs with my standardized offer going from ten k to twenty k to thirty k, and then the other half being the monthly retainers.
Amazing. Yeah. What is, like, that moment when that is all realized? Right? Do you see yourself kind of, like, celebrating with that team, have two copywriters, like, sharing that revenue?
As a matter of fact, this weekend, I interviewed my first, copywriter.
Cool. And I don’t even know how I’m gonna get to the million yet, but I’ve already interviewed my first copywriter.
So Amazing.
Beautiful. Well, we’re here for it.
Abby?
I haven’t sat in on a Rise session before, and I find it very uncomfortable to wait for the next person. So my apologies. Right?
I was going to get cold on. Sorry. Yeah.
I read the wolf sweating.
Just waiting for this Lean into that, Joe.
I was like, should I be talking? Yeah. I read the wolf howling because it’s been, like, really stormy. Like and I live by the beach.
I keep going down to the beach, throwing pebbles into the sea and then manifesting and then genuinely, like, howling because it’s so stormy that no one can hear. But, anyway, my visualization would be it. I’m sitting with my friends at the pub, and I’m like, guys, like, I I kind of, like, feel like I just won a lottery because my course has just, like, taken off. And I’ve paid off my mortgage.
I’ve just booked a holiday to Orlando, and I just I I don’t need all this money. Like, does anyone want, like, a their deposit for a house? Because, like, this is I I just don’t need this this much and then just, like, help my friends get houses and go to Orlando.
That’s amazing. Help your friend get help your friends get houses.
Like, that’s a personal It is so expensive in the UK.
Like, it’s so hard to get on the property ladder, and it’s just getting, like, worse and worse. So that’s like, I would love to just get all my friends’, houses.
I love that. Amazing. That is definitely, like, wolf howling worthy. So yeah. You all, like, exit the pub and start howling. Right?
So Why would we need to exit the pub?
That’s true. It is a pub.
Cool. Next up.
No one else has a hand up.
Alright.
Let’s see. Anyone who hasn’t shared yet who is willing and ready and available to be that.
Even if you didn’t even write anything down, like, what comes to mind right now? Something that just feels badass and unhinged.
Right.
I I see Joe scanning the squares. She’s like, who? Who?
I might be the only one with my hand up.
Oh, there it is.
I’ll go.
Sorry. I’m I admit I’m multitasking.
But one thing I would love to do is hire my partner and pay him life changing a life changing salary because he’s also very limited in his skill set and the jobs that are available to him. So that would be awesome. That would mean a lot and pay a very high rate.
Amazing. How about that? Joe, do you wanna go? Joe? Sarah? Do you know?
Mostly because I haven’t got it sorted out Mhmm.
At all. I don’t have a can you imagine? I’m sorry. I don’t.
I’m thinking about it still. I just don’t.
Cool. Well, we got time. So I wanna, like, pose another question for, like, a real rapid fire round.
And this one, I want everybody to be able to say. But, like, what is the fuck no that you are no longer available for? Right? And, like, you could put that in a number of, like, projects under x amount. Right?
That could be work that you’ve been doing just because it’s familiar and safe, or it could be, like, a certain, like, boundary, like, on your health. Like, I no longer do this. Right?
But, yeah, what is, like, when fuck no that you are no longer available for and that you are willing to be seen in your lack of availability for?
Social media management.
Cool. Done with that. Yep.
I’m trying to move out of being, doing, like, big projects that are built around copy and trying to be moved more into, like, CRO consultant kind of things. So in the process of stepping away from some of the projects when people come around and say, hey. We have fifteen pages of web copy that we need to do.
Trying to turn those into consulting, retainers or passing them off to the many talented copywriters I know.
I don’t wanna work with clients who make me cry, and I just wanna work with people who think have amazing and are lucky to have me. Mhmm.
Makes you cry.
This is horrible. Men from Florida.
I thought you were gonna say it.
Every client, every, like, client I work with, he’s a man from Florida. It’s just horrible to me.
I think you’ve identified the trend. So yeah, so, like, you need to have your, like, man from Florida rate and, yeah, just automatically charge a hundred k for men for men from Florida.
Yeah. I could look at that.
And then your goal is to make them cry first. So yeah.
Cool.
Florida man. Make stop copywriter cry.
Is that what that says? Oh, for no good reason.
That’s good, Andrew.
Because that’s like a thing.
Right? If you search Florida, man?
That’s a thing. Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that, and it works.
It’s hilarious.
Right. Does it have to be a work client thing?
Because I do have kind of a money goal wrapped in a thing I won’t do anymore, which is can print.
I do not want to fly in coach ever again ever. I don’t know. And the problem is that I speaking of Florida, I have to fly down to see my daughter a lot to a small airport, and, unfortunately, like, it’s the only option. There is no first class or business class, but at that’s kinda I’m done with coach and flying anything other than business or first class.
Nice. Wow. That.
Love that.
I’m leaning leaning into an edge here and flying coach with a family to Florida next month. So You’re awesome. Wish me luck. Yeah. Yeah.
I am.
Because, I know sometimes you gotta get a little uncomfortable.
That’s my version of a cold plunge.
Let’s keep it going.
I would so rather spend that whole time in a cold plunge than on that plane. Gotcha.
Oh gosh.
But I hate flying, so there’s that.
I like what she said. I have first class travel in my contracts. Boom.
My fuck no is the last minute jobs where the clients or potential clients try to, like, negotiate and price even though you know that it’s going to get them a ton more money and going to cost your weekend.
Mhmm.
No more of that.
For me, no more one on one coaching.
Good. Boundary?
For me, it’s it’s just, like, twelve hour days. Like, I can do a ten hour. That’s fine. But if there’s deadline, it goes over to twelve. It’s just so soul destroying, so be my fuck up. Yeah.
Yeah. How many twelve hour days do you reckon you had this year?
Quite a few year. Yeah. I have this I think I’ve been, like, up and down. So I’m not making up for the downs with, like, a crazy amount of work. And then because I’ve expanded all of my energy for the week in one day, I’m down again.
It’s just but, I’m slowly getting out of it, I think.
Yeah.
That could be a really radical boundary to hold, right, in terms of also the efficiencies you create, and the leverage you create as well.
So, yeah, I’d even like oh, what does Joe have to say here?
K. Oh, I totally do.
That’s fair.
That’s fair.
Alright.
Cool. Who’s that?
Boundaries are fun. Like, anyone can take a second too. Like, like, go for seconds or thirds.
I don’t have a a a fuck now, but my goal is, to create a billion dollar company by myself.
I love it.
I ain’t unhinged. That’s so small.
Love it. Yeah.
It’s so big.
That’s wild.
I mean, I’ve created, like you know, personally, the biggest company is, like, twenty million, and I’ve helped clients get acquired for a hundred million, you know, or or more.
But I wanna do a billion dollar company by myself. Mhmm.
Yeah. What’s the why? Yourself? Why is that an important part of it? Can I ask?
Because it’s just I I just do so many things, and I just wanna show that one person can do all the all the things and that this is possible. And it’s especially possible. I mean, I I’ve one, I’ve been working toward this for a while, but it’s even more possible now with with AI too.
Love it.
What’s, like, the most satisfying part of that achievement to you? Like, is it like, I think Abby mentioned, like, a Forbes article. Like, is it when someone says, how the hell did you do that? Like, can you actually give that spiel, or is it the financial element?
Or No.
I think it’s just I’ve done so much internal work around my goals and things. And my primary motivation that comes down underneath everything is it’s just who I am, and I thought it would be cool. And that’s really why I do pretty much everything that I do. I mean, like, I’ve I Joe always says she does it because she likes she likes sort of winning. She’s her her her motivator is a competition thing, like a personal best. For me, it’s just like, I thought it would be cool. That’s it.
I love that.
I know that’s not you know, there’s no big big motive behind it other than it’s just what I feel like I’m supposed to do.
Very cool.
Yeah. I wanna have to, like, block SamCart from sending me emails because I just, like, keep getting so many sales things. And it’s like, oh my god. It actually is really annoying. That thing, of course, created to say, like, oh, like, I just I have to turn the note based on because it’s so noisy. Like, I want I want to experience that. That’s awesome.
Yeah.
My fuck no is that I’m not gonna overthink things because I have a tendency to do that, and then it, like, slows me down. And then I’m spending a lot more time doing the things that shouldn’t take as long as they are. And so I will be instead just saying this is good enough and rolling with it.
Nice. What’s, like, one area you find yourself overthinking quite a bit?
What was that?
What what’s, like, one area you find yourself overthinking more than others?
Oh, definitely the copy and writing and, like, I get stuck on, like, is this the best way to say this?
You know? And it’s really, it doesn’t have to be that big of a deal. Like, you’re gonna put it out there and you’re gonna test it anyway. Mhmm. And instead of getting stuck on it, you can just refine it later. You know?
Totally. Cool.
Right. I know we still have fifteen minutes left. Do we wanna maybe open the floor for any other questions that are related or unrelated to today’s training?
Most definitely. There. Yeah.
Cool. Cool.
Jessica.
I don’t really I’m struggling for, like, a big goal that I’m envisioning vividly other than and maybe this is just because of Thanksgiving. But we went to the Green Bay Packer game for Thanksgiving. And I like being the person who, when you look at me, you would not expect to be in places like first class or the clubhouse or wherever. So I just basically want more experiences like that where people would not I can totally tell. They just look at me and they’re like, really? You, first class?
Like, something like that. I don’t know why. I don’t really care what other people think, but I find it very amusing, the looks on their faces. So it’s, like, the only money related goal I can really think of that I want more of this year’s, like, going to a football game or a basketball game or a concert or an airplane and having great seats. And you know what I mean?
Yeah. That’s super satisfying too. Right? And I’m glad you can own that without feeling guilty about it. Like, that’s really good.
I have no shame. I don’t care.
That’s shameless cheese head. Yeah.
Pretty much.
Cool. Andrew.
Yeah. Cool.
Okay. Okay. A little vulnerable here for a moment. But, I guess I something that I struggle with a lot is that I have, a lot of inner tension, between, you know, having ambition and and what I, you know, like, the stuff that I wrote down for what, you know, what can I imagine?
And, also, like, a lot of, feelings of kind of, like, avoidance and resistance and dread of, like, not wanting, like, responsive more responsibility, not wanting more complexity, not wanting, you know, more stress, all these things. And some of that has to do with, like, physical and mental health issues that, I that are chronic for me and that I struggle with. But I guess I’m just wondering if you have any kind of tips on how to maybe get out of my own way on this sensor, how to kind of balance the, you know, wanting all these things that we talk about with also, you know, not, I don’t know, with with, yeah, balancing the the laziness with the ambition, I guess, or the openings with the ambition.
Yeah. That’s an awesome question. I’m sure everyone here could give a really rich answer to it. I’ll give mine, and then if anyone cares to chime in, they can.
For me, like and I’ll answer this in a same way similar way like I do with my copy. The best way to overcome is to include. Right? So, like, I used to have a vision that, like, you know, the most successful version of myself has his shit together.
Right? And that there was no room for laziness or procrastination or lack of ambition or these peaks and peaks and valleys. Right? Like, and I still go through peaks and valleys.
Like, there are some weeks when I feel on fire and I make declarations and form relationships where, like, a week later, I’m like, well, fuck. I just wanna chill. I want none of this. Right?
So, there’s space for that, and I think, like, we get to create these visions that are forgiving of our humanness and allowing of them. So I think, like, for me personally, there was this, like, one, like, noticing my trend lines. Right? Noticing that when this happens, I’ll contract, I’ll pull back, or I’ll want to.
Right?
And then when I say yes, sometimes I’ll be like, well, shit. I’m gonna be discovered now or I’m biting off more than I could chew or all these narratives. And that just became inclusive of the process, not something I resisted. And, of course, there’s the inner work where I was doing right on unwinding those. Right? From the mindset work to the emotional clearing work to the what is really kind of like the root of driving this.
But, you know, as far as I’ve been able to observe, no one has totally overhauled their nervous system and belief system and trauma in weeks or months. Right? And I think that there’s a certain permission you give yourself to, like, this is in in my vision of this success. Right? It’s not overcome this and then that. That makes sense?
Definitely. Yes. Thank you. That’s helpful.
Cool. Of course.
I guess it’s my turn. To just to add to what you just said, Ryan, I like to call it emotional margin. You know? Some space for myself for those those peaks and valleys. That’s how that’s how I, handle it. But, quick question. Recommendation on a payment provider.
Recommendation on a payment provider for what specifically?
For any payments, you know, through is it would it be Stripe?
Would it be Apple? And who would it what would it be?
I mean, Stripe is super reliable and easy and integrates with just about everything. And, yeah, like, that’s always an easy default.
The fees could get annoying for sure.
I tend to like Wise, especially being in Canada, working with US clients, getting paid in US. Wise as though it’s been, like, super reliable and doesn’t need up too many fees. So my own stack on that is Stripe and Wise, essentially.
Yeah.
I’m just hearing a lot of negativity about Stripe lately about how they shut down accounts now. They’re not sure about the transactions, and the customer service isn’t what it could be.
There’s definitely yeah. I’ve definitely picked up on the rumblings on that.
I haven’t encountered any issues myself. Knock on wood. I don’t know if this desk is real wood or imitation wood, but I knocked out in any way.
It’s always good to kind of, like, have in the back of your mind what a backup is.
You know, I think, like, one thing that I proactively do on all my payment processors, and I used to do with PayPal, right, is I wouldn’t leave cash in there longer than I need to. Right? So I would move it out, like, right away so that if ever things do go wrong with the pros processor, like, funds aren’t locked in.
But yeah.
Like, what, like, are there any specific concerns around, like, Stripe, sorry, with your particular business? Like, things you’ve observed with, like, other providers in a similar space or yeah.
Well, I’m just looking at, this this deal where they might shut me down because they’re unfamiliar with my transactions.
Transaction, they shut me down until they can investigate. Number two would be the fees.
Mhmm.
Number three would be the lack of customer service.
Right.
Do they have a phone or just do I have to go through a chat?
And Yep.
Joe raises a really good point here. Right? Like, I hate Wes for paying for things.
Hate, right, with a extended AAA, like a triple a hate rating, but love Stripe. Right? So, like, there I mean, that’s one really good reason. Right?
Like, make it easy on client make it easy for clients to pay you. Right? Don’t add friction to getting paid. That’s one of the reasons I’ve background Stripe as well.
I’ll, like, you know, with a little bit of guilt, ask about why sometimes. Do you do you use why it’s right? And, like, just go back to Stripe. But, yeah, make it easy for clients to pay you.
Yes, there are some alternatives to Stripe that a lot of people have been talking about online as well.
Can’t remember the name of it right now, but there is a big exodus from Stripe to another that is, you know, apparently more friendly for those in the online space. But, I could try to find that and ping you, if I could recall that provider.
Cool. We got Abby and Misal.
Hey. Yeah. So this might be a bit of an amateur question, but it’s just a gap in my knowledge.
When you had a call with a prospect and they were interested and then you have to follow-up, should you be, like, re reselling to them, or should you just be like, hey. You haven’t, like, booked that follow-up call yet?
Like Oh, I mean, it all depends on, like, the context of the first call, right, and what we’re following up about.
Yeah.
Like, if they seemed like like it was kind of like a yes, like a soft yes, and then you’re gonna pick up. I’m laughing because Jo knows what I’m talking about. If you’re, like, following up, having a second call to talk about it, but they haven’t put that. Like, should you be, like, reselling or just, like, reminding them?
Yeah.
I mean, my goal is to get, like, some form of commitment on that first call.
Mostly because, like and I’d imagine the same is true for you. Right? When you’re gonna take on a project, you really need to make it within a time line, and you don’t have much time to waste yourself.
I think, like, kind of having that attitude of, like, we gotta get started and move on this, is certainly helpful.
If a second call is necessary, like, it’s usually just to, like, revisit some specific points of the proposal, right, that they wanted to get back to me on. Right? Like, if there was something that they had to double check with someone, but once again, you want decision makers on the call as much as possible.
So there’s, like, an element of objection handling on the first call. Right? Like, if you’re sensing, like, tentativeness, right, there, what I used to do, right, like, is for my to ease my own discomfort, I’d I’d get off the call, right, and try to, you know, push that to another call because I I was uncomfortable myself. Right?
But if I’m sensing hesitation and, you know, everything’s laid out, we’ve gone over the numbers, we’ve gone over the scope, we’ve gone over the outcomes that we’d be seeking. Right? And I’m asking for commitment there. Right? I’m saying that I’m usually saying, like, you know, if y’all can greenlight this right now, I’d love to get started this afternoon or tomorrow with my intake process. Like, I really move the intake and the project kickoff as soon as possible, and then try to get that commitment right away.
So if they want another call, should you try and get them to, like, ideally book it, like, on that first call? Totally. Yeah. Okay.
Okay. Absolutely. And it should be ASAP. Like, there shouldn’t there should be as minimal gap between those calls as possible.
So, like, I would certainly like, if there are legit areas to look at, right, and concerns and people to talk to you, whatever, like, I would book that time with them on the spot. Like, pull out your calendar. I’ll pull out mine. I’m I’ll send you an invite.
Right? Like, and get that verbal commitment. Like, does that sound good with you? Yes. Right?
Like, people aren’t gonna ghost on things that they’ve given verbal commitments to most of the time, unless they’re really avoiding you, right, and unless there’s really an objection that they don’t wanna tell you.
But yeah.
Okay. Thank you, Roy.
Of course.
I would add, having very little insight into what’s going on, that if it happens over the Black Friday weekend, they might just be busy with Black Friday sales, maybe, hypothetically speaking.
But what if they also had messaged you to say you shouldn’t have followed up?
Yeah. There’s that. That’s them nudging you. Like, Abby, we closed this.
And then they might have got busy with Black Friday.
Okay. Gotcha. I’m really red.
Cool.
My question is, where do you keep your Can You Imagine wall? Do you, like, read it every day? Like, what do you do with it so that you can keep it fresh in your brain?
Good question. So I used to have, like, a board, like, literal post its with a few of those.
Right now, these because I I’m more digital. I have a doc that I review, but it’s a short doc. Like, it’s got, like, five or six of those moments, and I don’t just read it mentally. Like, I read one, and I immerse myself in that moment.
Right? I actually get as much satisfaction as I can out of it as if it’s real right now without feeling like, gosh. Why isn’t this here yet? So, yeah, I, like, indulge in those moments as if they’re here now, if that makes sense.
You do it daily? Do you have, like, I don’t know, monthly? Like, do you have a ritual for that at all?
I used to do it, like, nightly, back when, like, my nights are more predictable. But, no, I think, like, weekly is better than ninety nine point nine nine percent of the world. Right? So, like, whatever cadence feels available to you without you feeling like, I didn’t do it without it feeling like a chore. Right? Because it should feel like a pleasure to, like, essentially, like, time travel to these realities, right, and experience them, like, in full joy as if they’re here now. So yeah.
And app recommendation, Envision app that Katie is using upon Stacy’s recommendation. Cool.
Can I ask a real quick question? Sorry. I know we’re on time.
Yep. Yeah. Okay.
And if anyone needs to hop off, no worries. But yeah. Totally.
Thank you. So in terms of visualizing and goal setting, when I first opened the goal setting document, I, like, panicked because I set a lot of goals this year that I didn’t achieve. And I’m like, do I really need to set more goals that I’m not going to achieve again next year? And I started writing a post on the mindset Slack group and realized that, no. Actually, it hasn’t been that bad of a year. It’s just that I haven’t achieved the undeniable glittering success that I wanted.
But in terms of, like, visualizing these, amazing goals, I feel kind of apprehensive to give in to, like, the dream, so to speak.
Mhmm.
I I feel like the advice is just to go bravely into that dark, beautiful night, but I’m still scared. So do you have, I guess, any advice for that?
Yeah. So I I feel like I know where you’re coming from on this. Right? And, like, I had goals and dreams and these outcomes that would feel like out of reach and scary and blah blah blah. Right? And, like, one thing I found to be surprisingly effective is, like, having elements of normal within them so they’re not so and only grandiose.
Right? So it’s like maybe wearing the same clothes I’m wearing right now, right, in that vision. So you’re kind of bridging familiar land with adventurous land. Right? So it’s like maybe in that, reality in Greece, right, your hair is still red?
Pink? Pinkish red? Right?
Red on the screen.
Right? Like, get yes. As weird as it sounds. Right? Like, if that pinkish red hair feels safe and you, right, like, bring that with you into that reality. Bring elements of your current reality that feel comfort giving, if that makes sense, so that it’s not an abandonment of all the things that feel safe and lovely, and trading that for crazy big adventures. Like, bring the moments with you.
That’s really helpful. Thank you so much.
Cool.
Awesome. Well, we are three minutes over.
So I think now’s a good time to wrap. Does anyone have anything like burning that they didn’t get to share or ask, or does everyone feel good and complete?
I have one quick question about the workbook.
Do we have a color PDF as well? I got only the black and white PDF, and then the Canva one is view only.
We can get you a downloaded version of the color one for sure. It’s just I’ve I didn’t want to print that off. And then my binder, I’m like, I don’t know.
So no. But we can absolutely get you that, Tina.
Cool. Thank you.
Cool. Happy just got two leads during this call. Look at that.
That’s like thought I’d be manifested it.
Like, what the hell? Girl. You did.
There’s so much talking about manifesting. I love it. Yeah.
And actually, you just checked my email, and I was like, what the hell?
This is a magical portal.
I’m telling y’all, if you sit on this call for another ten hours week.
Yeah. Time very well spent. It’s an ROI. That’s all. Yeah.
Beautiful. Cool. Thanks, Jeff. Go ahead.
Thank you for walking everyone through the first part of the workbook.
We have the second part coming up, this Thursday as well. It’s in the calendar the the days to have, like, like, the pages, to look in. That’s pages nine to nineteen.
That will require some reflection on how twenty twenty four went for you, what worked, what didn’t work, things like that. So I’d spend some time before that session just kind of reflecting on like, for example, Claire, you said you had goals that you made this year and you didn’t hit them, and that makes it difficult to set future goals because, like, I I I feel that, and I hope that that doesn’t continue to get in your way. I I get where you’re coming from, though. But, yeah, just reflect a little bit. So because there’s several pages there, nine to nineteen, it’s gonna be a big undertaking.
The more you arrive with some ideas already filled in, probably, the better. Okay?
Cool. Cool. Well, thank you everybody for sharing so openly, and I feel like I know everyone’s twenty twenty five, a lot better already. So excited to see unhinged goals come to reality and fill that win channel. Right? That win channel is gonna be so freaking cool this year.
Worksheet
Transcript
Uum, alright we’re gonna dive in. I’m going to share the delightful, beautiful workbook, which I duplicated so that I could put my own unhinged thoughts on it without disturbing the master workbook.
So let’s do that.
Cool. Cool.
There we go. There we go.
Sweet.
Alright. Unhinged time.
This reminded me of, like, literally my first copywriting project ever in, like, twenty eleven, twenty twelve, and I had to write for this, like, fundraiser event that was, like, based on Mad Men.
And I needed to, like, write copy for this local event fundraiser.
And, I think, like, my tagline was something like, going mad never felt so good and something, like, really funny like that.
So going unhinged never felt so good. That doesn’t have the same ring to it. But y’all get the idea. So thirteen years later, we’re going mad. So big unhinged ideas.
I love these two books, and they synergize so well. Synergy. Synergy. Synergy. There’s a weird ass get on the word synergy.
But to go well together, vivid vision really encapsulates a lot of what, I had been doing unconsciously for a while. So I was, like, the master of a lifeless goals. Like, I started setting goals, like, a while ago, and they’d be on Google Doc, and they would be the things that I thought would have meaning. There would be missions and visions on there that I thought had meaning, and there was no, like, juice to it.
So, yeah, I think a mission and a vision must connect to a series, a multitude of real and enjoyable, fully charged moments that are trackable, realizable, real, and you could reflect back and say, holy fuck. That happened, and this felt amazing. And I really want you to be able to think about what those moments are in copy. I call those moments of heightened pleasure.
Right? These are real observable moments when the thing you want to achieve is achieved. Right?
And it’s not just this check mark, but this, oh, like, heart expanding, like, body vibrating holy fuck moment.
And I want y’all to be available to those holy fuck moments, and that may mean being less available for your holy fuck moments.
I know I still have somehow holy fuck no moments in my life, and it was very uncomfortable, initially setting boundaries on those fuck no moments. But, yeah, setting boundaries on your fuck no moment will appeal you to those fuck yeah moments.
So, one thing I will encourage you to lean into are what o what are those textures, those data points, and feeling points of that vivid vision manifested? What is actually happening in your reality? What are you going on the wind channel in Slack and being like, oh, I’m you’ll never guess what just happened, dot dot dot, and let us celebrate you in that with all these emojis, the raising emojis.
Income goals. Right? So I was initially the king of not caring about money until this. Right?
I’d be like, I’m good. I just enjoy my Starbucks and my apartment, and that’s enough. Right? So I was the king of saying, well, as long as I have enough or decent living, I’m good.
Right? And then I started connecting income goals to actual lifestyle moments that they would empower, and I’m gonna talk about those in a second.
And, yeah, I made myself available for those just by leaning into what those income goals actually represented. So, bonus points. I found a lot of similarities between Vivid Vision and this old school book from, like, I don’t know, like, the fifties or sixties, one of those, like, initial manifesting books, Feelings the Secret by Neville Goddard.
Not inventory reading. Just a little side note. It’s written in very antiquated language, but some really good stuff about seeing that end result, not just, like, in your mind, but actually feeling it. What does it feel like in your body when that thing happens?
How does that actually feel in your body when you get an email from Tony Robbins saying, do you wanna speak on my stage? And you’re like, no. I don’t, but I really do.
How does that feel? So lean into those realities as if they are already happening. Make yourself available for it. Make your nervous system available to it.
Train your nervous nervous system for these ten x moments that may initially have some contraction. Right? It may initially be an edge, but begin attuning you to what’s possible and leaning on the support here. Right?
And in your own, yeah, in your own daily life to get that support to expand. Because I think this container is about expanding and not about the play it safe goals. These are about the unhinged, slightly scary. Yes.
They’re initially gonna create contraction and fever in the body, and that is expected, and we could work with that. Those types of goals. Cool?
Sweet.
Ten x is easier than two x. Another one I’ve loved.
Big takeaways here is just, like, being in that fierce protection and advocacy of your vivid vision. You choose ten x, you are excluding so much bullshit. Right? And this is something that was so uncomfortable as a recovering people pleaser.
I remember my first year full time freelancing probably made somewhere around, like, I don’t know, forty to fifty k working with the local piano repair shop, the local massage studio. Right? All these local people that became friends. Right?
And then in my own ten x year, literal ten x year. Oh, gosh. It required so many noes. Like, nope.
Sorry. I don’t do that anymore. Right? Can’t do it. Right? Can’t make that exception.
So, yeah, I think being in fierce protection, right, of your vivid vision, like, falling in love with that vivid vision, treating it as you would a child or a pet or a dog or a cat or just something you really love and making it less personal. Right? Not not just your personal boundaries, but, like, go to bat for this vision that you get to nurture and bridge into reality. So fierce protect of it.
Awkward convos are always going to feel better than self betrayal when you give a yes, and then you essentially have that stinging, sensation in your gut of, like, did I say yes? Right? And you’re begrudgingly doing something you don’t wanna do. Yeah.
Let’s just not do those anymore. Let’s just, like, get rid of all of those in your life.
And, yeah, to me, that’s required for that ten x.
Ten x innovation. So this is such a dear topic to me. I feel like, yeah, I feel like a big part of my career has been on the innovation side. Essentially, right from the beginning, having that question of, like, what is the five minute mile for what I’m doing?
What is the five minute mile for, an email launch sequence? What is the five minute mile for a SaaS onboarding? What is the five minute mile for, an ecom product page being launched to market for the first time? Right?
So what are these moonshots? What are these five minute miles in the thing you do, and what can you do in your thing, right, with every new project that I call paid r and d? Right? What needs to be true for you to literally set the standard for what that thing looks like in your space.
Right? And that’s gonna require some testing. So I call that paid r and d, at least one thing you’re doing on every new project to try to push that needle a little bit further. So I’m gonna have more to share about this in twenty twenty five.
It’s a concept I’m still practicing. Literally just wrote, an ecom supplement product page that I strategically tried just two new things, two new things that I’ve never done before, never seen done before. So take all the best practices, you add one or two things with a clear hypothesis of this might work. Right?
Let’s test this out in this scenario.
So I’m gonna share more on that because this page I just wrote is converting at, like, thirteen percent, like, thirteen percent conversion, and that’s not on, like, an insignificant amount of clicks. So really exciting stuff to share there. But in your own projects, just test one new thing. Like, what is one new thing that if this works, I have something that no one else has.
Right? There’s the innovation piece. You’re either competing on innovation, like having a thing, a proven method, or extreme per tease is the other side of it. Like, being just so freaking good.
Right? Like, that that is what allows you to charge ten x. Right? But I think it’s a lot easier, predictable, and faster of a path to innovate in your space.
So, those are my little quick book summaries. I think, like, the little last motivating line is, like, so much can change in a year if you Right? Like, I’ve had years of massive growth, and then I’ve had years of just, like, hold forward and integrate what happened and optimize it. But those, like, explosive, like, eight to ten x years, gosh. Those aren’t the ones I look back on right now and be like, that year changed freaking everything. Like, these are life trajectory changing years, and we get to create if we’re ready for them, if we’re available for them. So that is my little recap there.
The can you imagine exercise, I’d love for us to be able to spend some time here. Right? This tracks back to what are these tangible moments, right, where this vision, where this ten x vision comes to life when you could be like, damn. That just happened.
When you could go on that Slack channel, that wind channel, and be like, this just happened. Right? So for me, right, like, my big thing, when I ten x wasn’t about income goals. I couldn’t just say I won half a million dollars a year for the hell of it.
I had to connect those to things that mattered, and these matterful things happened, and they were amazing. Right? So it was like, for me, that time I was at the Scandinavian Spa in the middle of the day, right, when it’s empty except for retirees, like, talking about retiree shit, and just making one k, right, from an automated course sale, like, it’s another day and it’s no big deal. Right?
Like, that was one of my, like, nervous system exhale. Right? This is what I want to be living. That’s what my ten x lifestyle looked like at the time in, I guess this was, like, twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen.
Twenty fifteen, I almost died from a stroke. So that was my year of, like, no. I’m just gonna radically chill, right, and enjoy that and enjoy what this big bump in income empowers me to do.
Another fun income goal that turned into a tangible reality that actually had a lot of, like, excitement in it. I don’t know why this motivated it, motivated me the way it did.
But one of my goals was to have enough cash saved up in reserve in my business checking account that just having it in a I think it was, like, a five percent high interest account could pay my monthly expenses. Like, how cool is that when your, interest on what is in your biz account could pay expenses. And granted, I wasn’t in a crazy scale mode. Right? That was, like, with a VA and some software, but still, like, that just made my life feel so light and exciting.
So that is an income goal baked into a tangible thing that just feels really light on my system.
What else? Right? So I was never a big, event person.
You know, typical introvert, extreme introvert. Right? But what I loved to do was, like, I loved to go deep with the clients I had. Right?
So that meant traveling. It meant getting on location. It meant doing VIP days. It meant, visiting their teams and then extending those trips for two to three days for chill time.
Right? So that might look like hikes and going to the beach. And I remember one year, I was in, like, Encinitas or Carlsbad, like, three times that year. Right?
And, like, there’s these gardens by a place called Swami Beach. Right? So it’s like the Yogananda Gardens or something and just beautiful gardens overlooking the ocean. And I’m like, I found my up there on the for the third time that year, and that was one of my, like, ah, I made it moments.
Right? This is becoming routine. Like, just taking a chill decompressing day after a client VIP day and staring up in the ocean.
So, and then you get to also have, like, guilt free, like, pride in some of your goals. Right? So, like, one of my, like, kinks when I first ten x was, like, walking into the bank. Right?
Like, I didn’t even have Stripe in my first year. Like, I would literally ask clients to send checks in the mail. Right? And I would show up to the bank teller with, like, these five figure checks, and they would have no freaking idea what I did.
And, Brendon, that’s kind of just, like, enjoyable sense of weird pride in that.
So, yeah, I’d love for us all to just take some time right now, like, lean into what these vivid ten x moments look like for you. Right? They are undoubtedly connected to growth goals, and especially growth and income and growth in mindset and within your capacity to lean into that because there is going to be some edge. So this is your time to write a few of these down.
Right? Maybe even just, like, one really clear, oof, I don’t know if I should say that goal. Right? One that kinda scares you to say out loud, and then maybe we’ll say it out loud because that’s what we do.
So I’m gonna stop my share.
Any questions about this exercise before we get going, or should I, like, queue up some music that y’all may or may not enjoy while we take a few minutes?
Get unhinged.
Oh, I was not expecting espresso for some reason. I thought I made something else. That hit me harder. Cool.
Alright. I’m gonna play some music. I’ve never been known as, like, the best party DJ. I’ve always been the person, like, they replace after one song, but that’s all good.
And we’ll give it about five minutes. And then how many people are on this call? We got close to twenty.
So, yeah, I think that’s gonna be enough time for at least one minute one minute each to declare that out loud. So we’re gonna do five minutes now, and then everyone gets to share and declare their big, unhinged, wild, feels scary to say aloud goal, or the year.
Cool.
Alright.
Cool. Welcome back, everyone.
So, I would love to hear everybody’s unhinged goal. Right? And I think it would be amazing for everyone to hear everyone’s unhinged goal.
That way, a, we know what it is. And, b, if you wanna add a little extra flavor, a little extra juice to it as someone is sharing it, I dare you, right, to just see them fully in that success, see them as fully capable, see them as fully in the realization of that, and celebrate them in that. Right? I think that would be an enjoyable, fun, and lovely thing to do. So, first one up, I think we’ve got about sixty to ninety seconds, each. So yeah.
Cool. Cody, you’re up.
Alright. So this year, I will, write and publish a best selling book, that will lead to speaking gigs, high profile collaborations, and media features.
My book will be the go to manual for growth marketers and ecom leaders, when it comes to scaling their business, with a funnel for specifically cold traffic, and it will establish me as a top authority in the space.
Love it. What is one defining moment where you will know you’re in the achievement of that?
I would say when the book is published because then I know that I actually followed through what I said I was gonna do.
Okay. Love it. Thanks for sharing, Cody. Next person up.
Okay. I’ll go.
Mine is I host a Greek vacation for ten days with my entire family in the UK and in South Africa.
We’ve got a yacht moored outside, private shifts, and plenty of exciting activities planned like hiking, snorkeling, and, of course, eating.
Love it. What are you eating?
Oh my god. Like, everything.
I I’ve never been to Greece, so whatever they eat.
Beautiful. Cool. Well, taste those flavors and taste the entire moment. Love it. Cool. Next up.
My moment is I’m on a Teams meeting with my bookkeeper who I think thinks I’m a little bit crazy, and he’s telling me that he has never seen a client’s finances transform as dramatically as mine have in the last twelve months, and then point out that I should probably buy a company car or something because, otherwise, I’m gonna have to be in a different tax bracket.
That is amazing. Yes.
And that car the car is a little, Volkswagen Cabriolet convertible.
Oh, so good. Yeah. I love it.
Like, you least unhinged car you could buy.
I mean, I’ve I’ve had it on my vision board since I was, like, seventeen.
So Oh, okay.
Alright. Fair enough.
Yeah.
I mean, it was like the cool dream car.
Love it.
Is Andrew up?
Is that me?
I think so.
Cool.
My moment is when the prospect says yes to my proposal for a ten thousand dollar monthly consulting retainer, and I and I almost feel kind of, like, guilty because it’s like it feels like, oh, that’s not enough. Like, I’m not let me just read what I wrote instead of trying to improvise. I can’t believe how little work I’ll actually have to do relative to the amount that I’m getting paid because they’re paying for my thinking, not for my time or effort. And I guess, a moment in that might be, like, telling my wife about, like, you know, that I got that signed and, like, oh my god. I’m not gonna have to do nearly as much work as I’ve done to make, you know, half that money in the past or something.
I love that. What I love about what you just shared is, like, you included feeling guilty in your vision and your goal, which is true to what that would look like for you right now. Right? So I think so I think, like, that’s amazing.
Like, lean into that. Lean into moments that, right now, feel like they might induce a little bit of, like, guilt. Right? So cool.
Awesome. Okay. So mine is finding the perfect home for my family, and being able to call up our real estate agent when we, like, signed it and just put an offer in right away and close within, like, a month.
And it’s, like, the perfect house for a family, so it’s in the city, which is more pricey than we would otherwise or normally choose, I guess.
And it’s, like, in a great school district.
It’s near family. It’s got everything for the kids, and then it’s just also a an amazing house to where we can just set up shop for the foreseeable future.
Mhmm. I love that.
Does that moment feel most realized to you, like, when you sign for the house, when you get the house, or even when you make the decision and, like, reach out to an agent and say, like, I’m available for this now?
But probably, like, when I reach out to the agent and say, k. I can close on it. Like, we can we can put it down today. Like, we’re ready today. And then, like, the final walk through as the papers are, like, being signed.
Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Keep, like, inviting, like, the energies from those two moments because they feel, like, really expansive and life giving. Cool.
Yeah. Thank you.
Okay.
I actually started this, exercise yesterday. So the ImagineWall is the house that I want in three years.
So it sits, in the mountains of the Blues.
We’re in the Grand Oregon, so we’re right at the base of the Blue Mountains. It’s gonna be lakeside. There is a lake up there.
Five acres of wooded beauty.
Very large pond with a huge wrap around porch.
The back, back porch is really large outdoor living space with its own fireplace looking out over the lake. So it’s a perfect spot for morning coffee or eating wine or whiskey.
Are we invited? Can we have the first IRL there?
We can. Yeah. So but the the goal for this is to pay seventy five percent cash from the business.
Amazing.
Beautiful. Well, I’m officially imagining us sitting around your fire, like, being like, look at all this land. And Yeah. Inevitably someone starts wolf howling because they can and then everyone does.
Yeah. This is a perfect perfect place for it.
Yeah. Who in this group kicks off the wolf howling? Like, who is most likely to initiate wolf howling?
There you go.
Abby put up her hand, and I was gonna say Abby. So I think it’s Abby.
I’m usually the last one to join the wolf howling. I’m like, fine. I’ll do it. Anyway cool. Amazing. Thanks, Michelle.
I guess I’m, I am so inspired by this book. I’ll tell you what.
My my big audacious goal for this year is one million dollars worth of revenue in my, copywriting agency with three copywriters, two VAs with my standardized offer going from ten k to twenty k to thirty k, and then the other half being the monthly retainers.
Amazing. Yeah. What is, like, that moment when that is all realized? Right? Do you see yourself kind of, like, celebrating with that team, have two copywriters, like, sharing that revenue?
As a matter of fact, this weekend, I interviewed my first, copywriter.
Cool. And I don’t even know how I’m gonna get to the million yet, but I’ve already interviewed my first copywriter.
So Amazing.
Beautiful. Well, we’re here for it.
Abby?
I haven’t sat in on a Rise session before, and I find it very uncomfortable to wait for the next person. So my apologies. Right?
I was going to get cold on. Sorry. Yeah.
I read the wolf sweating.
Just waiting for this Lean into that, Joe.
I was like, should I be talking? Yeah. I read the wolf howling because it’s been, like, really stormy. Like and I live by the beach.
I keep going down to the beach, throwing pebbles into the sea and then manifesting and then genuinely, like, howling because it’s so stormy that no one can hear. But, anyway, my visualization would be it. I’m sitting with my friends at the pub, and I’m like, guys, like, I I kind of, like, feel like I just won a lottery because my course has just, like, taken off. And I’ve paid off my mortgage.
I’ve just booked a holiday to Orlando, and I just I I don’t need all this money. Like, does anyone want, like, a their deposit for a house? Because, like, this is I I just don’t need this this much and then just, like, help my friends get houses and go to Orlando.
That’s amazing. Help your friend get help your friends get houses.
Like, that’s a personal It is so expensive in the UK.
Like, it’s so hard to get on the property ladder, and it’s just getting, like, worse and worse. So that’s like, I would love to just get all my friends’, houses.
I love that. Amazing. That is definitely, like, wolf howling worthy. So yeah. You all, like, exit the pub and start howling. Right?
So Why would we need to exit the pub?
That’s true. It is a pub.
Cool. Next up.
No one else has a hand up.
Alright.
Let’s see. Anyone who hasn’t shared yet who is willing and ready and available to be that.
Even if you didn’t even write anything down, like, what comes to mind right now? Something that just feels badass and unhinged.
Right.
I I see Joe scanning the squares. She’s like, who? Who?
I might be the only one with my hand up.
Oh, there it is.
I’ll go.
Sorry. I’m I admit I’m multitasking.
But one thing I would love to do is hire my partner and pay him life changing a life changing salary because he’s also very limited in his skill set and the jobs that are available to him. So that would be awesome. That would mean a lot and pay a very high rate.
Amazing. How about that? Joe, do you wanna go? Joe? Sarah? Do you know?
Mostly because I haven’t got it sorted out Mhmm.
At all. I don’t have a can you imagine? I’m sorry. I don’t.
I’m thinking about it still. I just don’t.
Cool. Well, we got time. So I wanna, like, pose another question for, like, a real rapid fire round.
And this one, I want everybody to be able to say. But, like, what is the fuck no that you are no longer available for? Right? And, like, you could put that in a number of, like, projects under x amount. Right?
That could be work that you’ve been doing just because it’s familiar and safe, or it could be, like, a certain, like, boundary, like, on your health. Like, I no longer do this. Right?
But, yeah, what is, like, when fuck no that you are no longer available for and that you are willing to be seen in your lack of availability for?
Social media management.
Cool. Done with that. Yep.
I’m trying to move out of being, doing, like, big projects that are built around copy and trying to be moved more into, like, CRO consultant kind of things. So in the process of stepping away from some of the projects when people come around and say, hey. We have fifteen pages of web copy that we need to do.
Trying to turn those into consulting, retainers or passing them off to the many talented copywriters I know.
I don’t wanna work with clients who make me cry, and I just wanna work with people who think have amazing and are lucky to have me. Mhmm.
Makes you cry.
This is horrible. Men from Florida.
I thought you were gonna say it.
Every client, every, like, client I work with, he’s a man from Florida. It’s just horrible to me.
I think you’ve identified the trend. So yeah, so, like, you need to have your, like, man from Florida rate and, yeah, just automatically charge a hundred k for men for men from Florida.
Yeah. I could look at that.
And then your goal is to make them cry first. So yeah.
Cool.
Florida man. Make stop copywriter cry.
Is that what that says? Oh, for no good reason.
That’s good, Andrew.
Because that’s like a thing.
Right? If you search Florida, man?
That’s a thing. Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that, and it works.
It’s hilarious.
Right. Does it have to be a work client thing?
Because I do have kind of a money goal wrapped in a thing I won’t do anymore, which is can print.
I do not want to fly in coach ever again ever. I don’t know. And the problem is that I speaking of Florida, I have to fly down to see my daughter a lot to a small airport, and, unfortunately, like, it’s the only option. There is no first class or business class, but at that’s kinda I’m done with coach and flying anything other than business or first class.
Nice. Wow. That.
Love that.
I’m leaning leaning into an edge here and flying coach with a family to Florida next month. So You’re awesome. Wish me luck. Yeah. Yeah.
I am.
Because, I know sometimes you gotta get a little uncomfortable.
That’s my version of a cold plunge.
Let’s keep it going.
I would so rather spend that whole time in a cold plunge than on that plane. Gotcha.
Oh gosh.
But I hate flying, so there’s that.
I like what she said. I have first class travel in my contracts. Boom.
My fuck no is the last minute jobs where the clients or potential clients try to, like, negotiate and price even though you know that it’s going to get them a ton more money and going to cost your weekend.
Mhmm.
No more of that.
For me, no more one on one coaching.
Good. Boundary?
For me, it’s it’s just, like, twelve hour days. Like, I can do a ten hour. That’s fine. But if there’s deadline, it goes over to twelve. It’s just so soul destroying, so be my fuck up. Yeah.
Yeah. How many twelve hour days do you reckon you had this year?
Quite a few year. Yeah. I have this I think I’ve been, like, up and down. So I’m not making up for the downs with, like, a crazy amount of work. And then because I’ve expanded all of my energy for the week in one day, I’m down again.
It’s just but, I’m slowly getting out of it, I think.
Yeah.
That could be a really radical boundary to hold, right, in terms of also the efficiencies you create, and the leverage you create as well.
So, yeah, I’d even like oh, what does Joe have to say here?
K. Oh, I totally do.
That’s fair.
That’s fair.
Alright.
Cool. Who’s that?
Boundaries are fun. Like, anyone can take a second too. Like, like, go for seconds or thirds.
I don’t have a a a fuck now, but my goal is, to create a billion dollar company by myself.
I love it.
I ain’t unhinged. That’s so small.
Love it. Yeah.
It’s so big.
That’s wild.
I mean, I’ve created, like you know, personally, the biggest company is, like, twenty million, and I’ve helped clients get acquired for a hundred million, you know, or or more.
But I wanna do a billion dollar company by myself. Mhmm.
Yeah. What’s the why? Yourself? Why is that an important part of it? Can I ask?
Because it’s just I I just do so many things, and I just wanna show that one person can do all the all the things and that this is possible. And it’s especially possible. I mean, I I’ve one, I’ve been working toward this for a while, but it’s even more possible now with with AI too.
Love it.
What’s, like, the most satisfying part of that achievement to you? Like, is it like, I think Abby mentioned, like, a Forbes article. Like, is it when someone says, how the hell did you do that? Like, can you actually give that spiel, or is it the financial element?
Or No.
I think it’s just I’ve done so much internal work around my goals and things. And my primary motivation that comes down underneath everything is it’s just who I am, and I thought it would be cool. And that’s really why I do pretty much everything that I do. I mean, like, I’ve I Joe always says she does it because she likes she likes sort of winning. She’s her her her motivator is a competition thing, like a personal best. For me, it’s just like, I thought it would be cool. That’s it.
I love that.
I know that’s not you know, there’s no big big motive behind it other than it’s just what I feel like I’m supposed to do.
Very cool.
Yeah. I wanna have to, like, block SamCart from sending me emails because I just, like, keep getting so many sales things. And it’s like, oh my god. It actually is really annoying. That thing, of course, created to say, like, oh, like, I just I have to turn the note based on because it’s so noisy. Like, I want I want to experience that. That’s awesome.
Yeah.
My fuck no is that I’m not gonna overthink things because I have a tendency to do that, and then it, like, slows me down. And then I’m spending a lot more time doing the things that shouldn’t take as long as they are. And so I will be instead just saying this is good enough and rolling with it.
Nice. What’s, like, one area you find yourself overthinking quite a bit?
What was that?
What what’s, like, one area you find yourself overthinking more than others?
Oh, definitely the copy and writing and, like, I get stuck on, like, is this the best way to say this?
You know? And it’s really, it doesn’t have to be that big of a deal. Like, you’re gonna put it out there and you’re gonna test it anyway. Mhmm. And instead of getting stuck on it, you can just refine it later. You know?
Totally. Cool.
Right. I know we still have fifteen minutes left. Do we wanna maybe open the floor for any other questions that are related or unrelated to today’s training?
Most definitely. There. Yeah.
Cool. Cool.
Jessica.
I don’t really I’m struggling for, like, a big goal that I’m envisioning vividly other than and maybe this is just because of Thanksgiving. But we went to the Green Bay Packer game for Thanksgiving. And I like being the person who, when you look at me, you would not expect to be in places like first class or the clubhouse or wherever. So I just basically want more experiences like that where people would not I can totally tell. They just look at me and they’re like, really? You, first class?
Like, something like that. I don’t know why. I don’t really care what other people think, but I find it very amusing, the looks on their faces. So it’s, like, the only money related goal I can really think of that I want more of this year’s, like, going to a football game or a basketball game or a concert or an airplane and having great seats. And you know what I mean?
Yeah. That’s super satisfying too. Right? And I’m glad you can own that without feeling guilty about it. Like, that’s really good.
I have no shame. I don’t care.
That’s shameless cheese head. Yeah.
Pretty much.
Cool. Andrew.
Yeah. Cool.
Okay. Okay. A little vulnerable here for a moment. But, I guess I something that I struggle with a lot is that I have, a lot of inner tension, between, you know, having ambition and and what I, you know, like, the stuff that I wrote down for what, you know, what can I imagine?
And, also, like, a lot of, feelings of kind of, like, avoidance and resistance and dread of, like, not wanting, like, responsive more responsibility, not wanting more complexity, not wanting, you know, more stress, all these things. And some of that has to do with, like, physical and mental health issues that, I that are chronic for me and that I struggle with. But I guess I’m just wondering if you have any kind of tips on how to maybe get out of my own way on this sensor, how to kind of balance the, you know, wanting all these things that we talk about with also, you know, not, I don’t know, with with, yeah, balancing the the laziness with the ambition, I guess, or the openings with the ambition.
Yeah. That’s an awesome question. I’m sure everyone here could give a really rich answer to it. I’ll give mine, and then if anyone cares to chime in, they can.
For me, like and I’ll answer this in a same way similar way like I do with my copy. The best way to overcome is to include. Right? So, like, I used to have a vision that, like, you know, the most successful version of myself has his shit together.
Right? And that there was no room for laziness or procrastination or lack of ambition or these peaks and peaks and valleys. Right? Like, and I still go through peaks and valleys.
Like, there are some weeks when I feel on fire and I make declarations and form relationships where, like, a week later, I’m like, well, fuck. I just wanna chill. I want none of this. Right?
So, there’s space for that, and I think, like, we get to create these visions that are forgiving of our humanness and allowing of them. So I think, like, for me personally, there was this, like, one, like, noticing my trend lines. Right? Noticing that when this happens, I’ll contract, I’ll pull back, or I’ll want to.
Right?
And then when I say yes, sometimes I’ll be like, well, shit. I’m gonna be discovered now or I’m biting off more than I could chew or all these narratives. And that just became inclusive of the process, not something I resisted. And, of course, there’s the inner work where I was doing right on unwinding those. Right? From the mindset work to the emotional clearing work to the what is really kind of like the root of driving this.
But, you know, as far as I’ve been able to observe, no one has totally overhauled their nervous system and belief system and trauma in weeks or months. Right? And I think that there’s a certain permission you give yourself to, like, this is in in my vision of this success. Right? It’s not overcome this and then that. That makes sense?
Definitely. Yes. Thank you. That’s helpful.
Cool. Of course.
I guess it’s my turn. To just to add to what you just said, Ryan, I like to call it emotional margin. You know? Some space for myself for those those peaks and valleys. That’s how that’s how I, handle it. But, quick question. Recommendation on a payment provider.
Recommendation on a payment provider for what specifically?
For any payments, you know, through is it would it be Stripe?
Would it be Apple? And who would it what would it be?
I mean, Stripe is super reliable and easy and integrates with just about everything. And, yeah, like, that’s always an easy default.
The fees could get annoying for sure.
I tend to like Wise, especially being in Canada, working with US clients, getting paid in US. Wise as though it’s been, like, super reliable and doesn’t need up too many fees. So my own stack on that is Stripe and Wise, essentially.
Yeah.
I’m just hearing a lot of negativity about Stripe lately about how they shut down accounts now. They’re not sure about the transactions, and the customer service isn’t what it could be.
There’s definitely yeah. I’ve definitely picked up on the rumblings on that.
I haven’t encountered any issues myself. Knock on wood. I don’t know if this desk is real wood or imitation wood, but I knocked out in any way.
It’s always good to kind of, like, have in the back of your mind what a backup is.
You know, I think, like, one thing that I proactively do on all my payment processors, and I used to do with PayPal, right, is I wouldn’t leave cash in there longer than I need to. Right? So I would move it out, like, right away so that if ever things do go wrong with the pros processor, like, funds aren’t locked in.
But yeah.
Like, what, like, are there any specific concerns around, like, Stripe, sorry, with your particular business? Like, things you’ve observed with, like, other providers in a similar space or yeah.
Well, I’m just looking at, this this deal where they might shut me down because they’re unfamiliar with my transactions.
Transaction, they shut me down until they can investigate. Number two would be the fees.
Mhmm.
Number three would be the lack of customer service.
Right.
Do they have a phone or just do I have to go through a chat?
And Yep.
Joe raises a really good point here. Right? Like, I hate Wes for paying for things.
Hate, right, with a extended AAA, like a triple a hate rating, but love Stripe. Right? So, like, there I mean, that’s one really good reason. Right?
Like, make it easy on client make it easy for clients to pay you. Right? Don’t add friction to getting paid. That’s one of the reasons I’ve background Stripe as well.
I’ll, like, you know, with a little bit of guilt, ask about why sometimes. Do you do you use why it’s right? And, like, just go back to Stripe. But, yeah, make it easy for clients to pay you.
Yes, there are some alternatives to Stripe that a lot of people have been talking about online as well.
Can’t remember the name of it right now, but there is a big exodus from Stripe to another that is, you know, apparently more friendly for those in the online space. But, I could try to find that and ping you, if I could recall that provider.
Cool. We got Abby and Misal.
Hey. Yeah. So this might be a bit of an amateur question, but it’s just a gap in my knowledge.
When you had a call with a prospect and they were interested and then you have to follow-up, should you be, like, re reselling to them, or should you just be like, hey. You haven’t, like, booked that follow-up call yet?
Like Oh, I mean, it all depends on, like, the context of the first call, right, and what we’re following up about.
Yeah.
Like, if they seemed like like it was kind of like a yes, like a soft yes, and then you’re gonna pick up. I’m laughing because Jo knows what I’m talking about. If you’re, like, following up, having a second call to talk about it, but they haven’t put that. Like, should you be, like, reselling or just, like, reminding them?
Yeah.
I mean, my goal is to get, like, some form of commitment on that first call.
Mostly because, like and I’d imagine the same is true for you. Right? When you’re gonna take on a project, you really need to make it within a time line, and you don’t have much time to waste yourself.
I think, like, kind of having that attitude of, like, we gotta get started and move on this, is certainly helpful.
If a second call is necessary, like, it’s usually just to, like, revisit some specific points of the proposal, right, that they wanted to get back to me on. Right? Like, if there was something that they had to double check with someone, but once again, you want decision makers on the call as much as possible.
So there’s, like, an element of objection handling on the first call. Right? Like, if you’re sensing, like, tentativeness, right, there, what I used to do, right, like, is for my to ease my own discomfort, I’d I’d get off the call, right, and try to, you know, push that to another call because I I was uncomfortable myself. Right?
But if I’m sensing hesitation and, you know, everything’s laid out, we’ve gone over the numbers, we’ve gone over the scope, we’ve gone over the outcomes that we’d be seeking. Right? And I’m asking for commitment there. Right? I’m saying that I’m usually saying, like, you know, if y’all can greenlight this right now, I’d love to get started this afternoon or tomorrow with my intake process. Like, I really move the intake and the project kickoff as soon as possible, and then try to get that commitment right away.
So if they want another call, should you try and get them to, like, ideally book it, like, on that first call? Totally. Yeah. Okay.
Okay. Absolutely. And it should be ASAP. Like, there shouldn’t there should be as minimal gap between those calls as possible.
So, like, I would certainly like, if there are legit areas to look at, right, and concerns and people to talk to you, whatever, like, I would book that time with them on the spot. Like, pull out your calendar. I’ll pull out mine. I’m I’ll send you an invite.
Right? Like, and get that verbal commitment. Like, does that sound good with you? Yes. Right?
Like, people aren’t gonna ghost on things that they’ve given verbal commitments to most of the time, unless they’re really avoiding you, right, and unless there’s really an objection that they don’t wanna tell you.
But yeah.
Okay. Thank you, Roy.
Of course.
I would add, having very little insight into what’s going on, that if it happens over the Black Friday weekend, they might just be busy with Black Friday sales, maybe, hypothetically speaking.
But what if they also had messaged you to say you shouldn’t have followed up?
Yeah. There’s that. That’s them nudging you. Like, Abby, we closed this.
And then they might have got busy with Black Friday.
Okay. Gotcha. I’m really red.
Cool.
My question is, where do you keep your Can You Imagine wall? Do you, like, read it every day? Like, what do you do with it so that you can keep it fresh in your brain?
Good question. So I used to have, like, a board, like, literal post its with a few of those.
Right now, these because I I’m more digital. I have a doc that I review, but it’s a short doc. Like, it’s got, like, five or six of those moments, and I don’t just read it mentally. Like, I read one, and I immerse myself in that moment.
Right? I actually get as much satisfaction as I can out of it as if it’s real right now without feeling like, gosh. Why isn’t this here yet? So, yeah, I, like, indulge in those moments as if they’re here now, if that makes sense.
You do it daily? Do you have, like, I don’t know, monthly? Like, do you have a ritual for that at all?
I used to do it, like, nightly, back when, like, my nights are more predictable. But, no, I think, like, weekly is better than ninety nine point nine nine percent of the world. Right? So, like, whatever cadence feels available to you without you feeling like, I didn’t do it without it feeling like a chore. Right? Because it should feel like a pleasure to, like, essentially, like, time travel to these realities, right, and experience them, like, in full joy as if they’re here now. So yeah.
And app recommendation, Envision app that Katie is using upon Stacy’s recommendation. Cool.
Can I ask a real quick question? Sorry. I know we’re on time.
Yep. Yeah. Okay.
And if anyone needs to hop off, no worries. But yeah. Totally.
Thank you. So in terms of visualizing and goal setting, when I first opened the goal setting document, I, like, panicked because I set a lot of goals this year that I didn’t achieve. And I’m like, do I really need to set more goals that I’m not going to achieve again next year? And I started writing a post on the mindset Slack group and realized that, no. Actually, it hasn’t been that bad of a year. It’s just that I haven’t achieved the undeniable glittering success that I wanted.
But in terms of, like, visualizing these, amazing goals, I feel kind of apprehensive to give in to, like, the dream, so to speak.
Mhmm.
I I feel like the advice is just to go bravely into that dark, beautiful night, but I’m still scared. So do you have, I guess, any advice for that?
Yeah. So I I feel like I know where you’re coming from on this. Right? And, like, I had goals and dreams and these outcomes that would feel like out of reach and scary and blah blah blah. Right? And, like, one thing I found to be surprisingly effective is, like, having elements of normal within them so they’re not so and only grandiose.
Right? So it’s like maybe wearing the same clothes I’m wearing right now, right, in that vision. So you’re kind of bridging familiar land with adventurous land. Right? So it’s like maybe in that, reality in Greece, right, your hair is still red?
Pink? Pinkish red? Right?
Red on the screen.
Right? Like, get yes. As weird as it sounds. Right? Like, if that pinkish red hair feels safe and you, right, like, bring that with you into that reality. Bring elements of your current reality that feel comfort giving, if that makes sense, so that it’s not an abandonment of all the things that feel safe and lovely, and trading that for crazy big adventures. Like, bring the moments with you.
That’s really helpful. Thank you so much.
Cool.
Awesome. Well, we are three minutes over.
So I think now’s a good time to wrap. Does anyone have anything like burning that they didn’t get to share or ask, or does everyone feel good and complete?
I have one quick question about the workbook.
Do we have a color PDF as well? I got only the black and white PDF, and then the Canva one is view only.
We can get you a downloaded version of the color one for sure. It’s just I’ve I didn’t want to print that off. And then my binder, I’m like, I don’t know.
So no. But we can absolutely get you that, Tina.
Cool. Thank you.
Cool. Happy just got two leads during this call. Look at that.
That’s like thought I’d be manifested it.
Like, what the hell? Girl. You did.
There’s so much talking about manifesting. I love it. Yeah.
And actually, you just checked my email, and I was like, what the hell?
This is a magical portal.
I’m telling y’all, if you sit on this call for another ten hours week.
Yeah. Time very well spent. It’s an ROI. That’s all. Yeah.
Beautiful. Cool. Thanks, Jeff. Go ahead.
Thank you for walking everyone through the first part of the workbook.
We have the second part coming up, this Thursday as well. It’s in the calendar the the days to have, like, like, the pages, to look in. That’s pages nine to nineteen.
That will require some reflection on how twenty twenty four went for you, what worked, what didn’t work, things like that. So I’d spend some time before that session just kind of reflecting on like, for example, Claire, you said you had goals that you made this year and you didn’t hit them, and that makes it difficult to set future goals because, like, I I I feel that, and I hope that that doesn’t continue to get in your way. I I get where you’re coming from, though. But, yeah, just reflect a little bit. So because there’s several pages there, nine to nineteen, it’s gonna be a big undertaking.
The more you arrive with some ideas already filled in, probably, the better. Okay?
Cool. Cool. Well, thank you everybody for sharing so openly, and I feel like I know everyone’s twenty twenty five, a lot better already. So excited to see unhinged goals come to reality and fill that win channel. Right? That win channel is gonna be so freaking cool this year.
Breaking the 4th Wall to Build Authority and Foster Trust
Breaking the 4th Wall to Build Authority & Foster Trust
Transcript
Alright. Well, it’s, two past. So let me dive, into what I’ve got for all of you here today.
A few people may still join the room. Hey, Michelle. And you can hear us.
So obviously, I mean, you’re halfway through the current month now, so you are well and truly aware of the fact that the theme for this month is advanced emails.
The technique that I’m going to walk you through today is breaking the fourth wall, as a technique that really helps you, build authority and foster trust, in a really resonant way with the people who are reading your emails. So your prospects, your subscribers, etcetera.
Now, I suspect everyone in this room probably knows the phrase breaking the fourth wall. But just in case you don’t, or just in case it’s one of those things that you think you know, but you’re not quite sure, it comes from the world of theatre, and is based on the idea of the stage itself having three physical walls, like the back and then the two wings. And then there being the fourth imaginary wall that sits between the actors and the audience.
Now, obviously, therefore, breaking the fourth wall is when someone on stage, I guess, breaks out of the story itself or breaks out of character to interact directly with the audience themselves. And I was trying to think yesterday of some sort of more pop culture references for this because obviously it’s a technique that’s also used in movies and TV shows. And some that came to mind, which you may or may not have seen are Fleabag.
A great show, by the way, if you haven’t watched it. But she will often or sometimes, you know, make the face or not contact directly with the camera, so directly with the viewer that communicates a certain feeling, about the event she’s in. It’s usually done for comedic effect in that case.
House of Cards, Frank Underwood would often have those long monologues to camera, that revealed a bit more of himself and his character and his thought process for some of those episodes.
Martin Scorsese also uses it quite a bit in his movies.
Wolf of Wall Street, for example, if you’ve seen it, fits in my mind because of the book that’s, that Joe set for next month. There’s a part where he’s walking through the office and I think he’s explaining what an IPO is, and he’s doing that to camera. So he’s breaking the fourth wall. So I think the key thing to remember here as we begin talking about how to take this technique and apply it to email is that it’s something that is always done strategically and always done quite sparingly. If it’s something that you end up doing too often, it becomes gimmicky really quickly. So you really need a good rationale for doing it in your emails.
Now let me share my screen, so that I can it’ll take you through, a bit of what I’ve got on this worksheet, but also some examples here that I have, ready and waiting for you.
Sorry. And I’m always very bad at getting my screen set up. There we go. Okay.
So, when it comes to emails, I think we can agree that usually your prospect gets the end product of your strategy, right? You do all the research, you do all the thoughts, you write all the copy and they really see the outcome of all that work.
They get the fully cake, baked cake, so to speak. So this technique is all about inviting them in to show them the recipe as a way to establish authority and build trust.
So I’ve got, three examples of when I have used this for myself and my clients, and it’s worked really well. And happily, they seem to fit into three pretty constant or consistent scenarios.
I have, of course, tried to use this technique in more, but I haven’t necessarily seen a measurable impact, of leveraging it, leveraging it in this way. So, I mean, let’s stick with what I know works.
So the first scenario where breaking the fourth wall in your emails is usually very effective is if or when you’ve gathered proof in response to a direct question or objection. So it could be if you, you or your client is in launch, or it could just be, you know, if generally someone has approached you or your client and is interested in finding out more about something.
Now, the reason that this works so well is because it not only allows you to prove the point that you’re making, you know, thanks to the proof that you’re presenting, But it also helps position you as really responsive and genuine, which is especially powerful in this era where transparency is super sexy and compelling. Long may it rain. So I’ll, just take you now to an example of what this can look like in practice so you can see what I’m on about.
And by the way, I’m very happy to share all these emails with you as well.
So if you would like, to look at these, because as you can see, some of them are quite long. If you would like to look at the entirety of them, in your own time, please feel free to ask.
But for context, this is an email that I sent out, as an FAQ email through one of my own launches, back in twenty twenty for my copywriting, program called Brain Camp. So there’s lots of copy here that is not relevant to what we’re talking about. The piece I want to draw your attention to is here. This is one of the questions or statements, I guess, that came through during launch. I had phone my last time, so I’m really keen to get involved this time. If I can make it work financially, we’ll have to have a ponder.
I do have some copy here that speaks to the more emotional side, of that question or that objection.
And then I get into the logical stuff. And this is where I break the fourth wall in this email.
So emotions aside, I also wanted to make sure I could answer this question for you in more tangible terms. So I reached out to last one of last rounds campus at a light for Chrissy Chiodo with this question. And And as you can see, this is me breaking the fourth wall. This is me really letting someone into the process of how this email is built.
And of course it’s done strategically because what I’ve done here is I have screenshotted the literal DM and question that I sent her. Oh, hello. Currently, Radne, I’ll take your email for tomorrow and there are a lot of queues around finances. Just curious.
Any idea how long it took for you to see financial returns from Braincamp last year? And then also, of course, sharing a screenshot of her response.
Now typically, right, the conventional rule for email and using social proof like this, just as the conventional rule for theater where you don’t break that fourth wall, is that you may just include a screenshot of, say, this part of her response, or you may even take sentences or phrases from this and put it into, you know, a testimonial of sorts with her name attached. But what I’m doing here is actually showing, I guess, the whole, chain of this interaction, not only to help prove the point that there is ROI for this offer, but also to show that, hey, I’m really responsive to questions, which in this case is important, right?
Because I’m towards the end of my launch and I really want to make sure that anyone who has a question on their mind is going to reach out and ask it. And also to be really transparent and show that I have nothing to hide. Like I’m not any of this proof here. This is literally what’s come through to me, as you can see.
Ina does go on to include more traditional, methods and means of social proof, so just the screenshots themselves. But can you see the difference here between just including things like this is just like an answer to the question and actually inviting your prospect to come on the journey with you of how you’re going to get this piece of the puzzle?
Is that making sense?
Yep. Okay. Cool. And of course, if it’s not, ask me questions.
But I will keep going in lieu of questions now. Thumbs up. Amazing. Thanks, Marina.
Sorry. I’m very bad. There we go. Okay. So the second scenario where breaking the fourth wall is usually very effective is when you’re positioning yourself or your client as an expert strategist and therefore want to show off your thought process.
So when the magic is not only in what you’re doing, but in how you made the decision to get there. Now, of course, for the most part, emails are, because they should be, like I mentioned earlier, a result of you doing all the things you need to do to get your prospect to take the action you want them to take without them necessarily understanding the mechanics of what’s at play. But in this scenario, where it’s actually really valuable for them to see what an expert you are at something that you do, it can be very, strategic to actually break that fourth wall. So here’s an example of what, that one looks like.
Oh, you know what I’ve done?
I closed one of my tabs. Hold on a sec. Let me stop share so I can dig back through my inbox. Sorry, guys. That’s my uncle. Zoom thing is at work.
It’s alright. I know what the email is called, so it will not be long to find.
Right. Sorry about that, guys.
K. Let me share my screen again.
There we go. Pull it again. Okay. So here we are. This email strategy strategy strategy, is one that I sent out actually just a few months ago. I was part of Brenna McGowan’s behind the launch, which you may have heard of. I actually think Ry was part of it a few years ago.
But basically it is where she has boxer conversations with different people in the launch space and ask them what worked really well on your last launch, and then sells those conversations as a resource for other business owners.
So anyway, I obviously had to promote this thing that I was part of, which is part of the deal in which is great.
I start this email, which is important with this sentence. I said yes to a bunch of glorious opportunities when I was still on maternity leave. I then go on to promote behind the launch. And I won’t read through that because it’s not the point of what I’m trying to show you. Then we get to the PS. What I didn’t consider when I heck yes ed my way through a bunch of invites like Prenders to events on Deep In My Bones Chuck to be part of was how the timing of them and associated promotion would align with my own promotion for various offers, including the last ever round of Braincamp.
Cause as you might’ve heard, it’s tricky to promote two things at once.
To be clear, the tricky part isn’t the bit where you reach a fresh audience and bring in new leads. That’s a hugely valuable asset leading up to launch. Even if timeframes are a bit squishy, just make sure you’ve considered how your choice of lead magnet can accelerate the process of know, like, and trust, as well as prime people for the offer they’re about to see. And remember to include opt out links so people can exercise informed consent.
The tricky part is all about legends like you, who are smack bang in the middle of a conversation designed to prime me for my own offer and working through how in this case, I can leverage my conversation with Brenna to help further your decision about whether or not you want to check out or jump into BrandCamp on open enrollments next week, rather than letting it be a distraction from that decision because, oh, look, I already joined a thing and am learning.
Real talk. But you know what? My chat with Brenna and how I promote it provides an opportunity for me to demonstrate some of the key outcomes Braincamp offers, Like not never having to rely on a template to write copy, the grounding kind of confidence that allows you to craft strategy and write copy in real time because you know what to say when and no longer fit it by the blank page. And the trust you have in your ability to work things out because you understand the mechanics of what works and why. And then it goes on to have a CTA again to join the Grandcamp wait list, which really was my key goal for this email because of the timing of the promotion.
So, of course, I could have left all this PS out, right, and just let it be a promotion for behind the launch and hoped and trusted that if anyone did actually take brand up on that offer, my conversation sort of led them back to my wait list.
But what I have done here is really unpacked the strategy of what is happening in this email. And again, I’m breaking the fourth wall in this way and inviting my prospect in on the journey that’s happening inside my mind.
Now, why I decided to do this for this email is because my ideal prospect for Braincamp is someone who wants to learn more about copy and specifically about how and why things work. So being able to step them through the strategy, at least in this scenario really helps position me as someone who is qualified to teach that course, I’m also able to bring it back to some of the key outcomes of Braincamp, which is obviously beneficial as well. But I’m really inviting people into the how and why of what I’m doing rather than just writing a different form of this email that didn’t have, I guess, that didn’t lift the lid on the mechanics. It didn’t show them what was going on under the hood.
Does that make sense?
Yep.
K. Cool. And, again, I’m very happy to share these emails with you later if you would like to see them as as holes.
Okay. The third scenario where breaking the fourth wall is usually very effective is a much simpler one. It can be done with a single sentence, which may make some of you happy.
It’s when you want to normalize a thought, feeling, or action to reduce friction around it and or position yourself or your client as relatable.
So for this one, a super quick, simple, easy example.
It’s kind of like a damaging ignition, but as you can see, it’s a bit more tightly linked to, the email itself.
One of the items on my to do list last Friday was write primary email for next month’s Reflective Practise Club. I didn’t do it, which makes now feel like the perfect time to mention the theme for next month’s club is tackling procrastination.
So again, it is just inviting people into your decision making process in what you’re actually putting in that email rather than delivering them the end product of all of that without inviting them in to see the process of how you get there. So again, you’re breaking that convention of email deliberately, strategically in situations where you where you’re confident that it’s actually gonna be beneficial for your strategy.
Now, as you can see, some different ways you can actually enact this technique is via screenshots. Obviously that’s particularly relevant if you are enacting this technique in relation to social proof.
Also commentary on or side notes about or explanations of your approach.
And of course just figuratively inviting your prospect into the room with you as you’re right. So what’s going through your head? What are you noticing? What are you feeling or responding to? And of course that can be a really great way with the right prospect and the right offhand, the right audience to actually, demonstrate some of that strategic know how. So in the scenario where the magic is not only in what you’re doing, but how you’re making a decision to actually do it.
So I’m sure there’ll be lots of questions because as you can tell, this technique does rely a lot on context, but just to reference this in case you will find it useful later. And you may not. Right? You may not need this.
So feel free to use or ignore this at will. But it’s a quick table that you can use just to help identify where in a certain sequence it may be valuable or strategically appropriate to actually break the fourth wall. So in the examples I’ve got here, I’m just assuming that there is, a nurture sequence on the back of lead magnet that is designed to teach the subscriber how to increase their email engagement. So the first email in that sequence is the lead magnet delivery.
The strategic intent of that email is that the subscriber engages with the lead magnet. Would it be appropriate and available to break the fourth wall here? No. Probably not.
It’s a simple email. We don’t need to get too tricky with it. The second email in the sequence is a lead magnet reminder that would go out to those who haven’t engaged with that lead magnet in forty eight hours. The strategic intent of that email is to unact is that unactivated subscribers engage with that lead magnet.
Now in this case, since the lead magnet itself is all about increasing email engagement, there may actually be a case for breaking the fourth wall here because you’re sending this email out to people who haven’t engaged with that lead magnet because you know that that increases engagement, not just with the lead magnet, but with also your list and your emails as a result. So you could actually break the fourth wall here and let people into the strategic intent and the strategic decisions that you’re making about when to send that email and why to send that email. So in that case, this could actually be, a really beneficial use of the technique.
Okay. I feel like I’ve talked long enough, and my voice is quite creaky this morning too. Sorry about that. I don’t know if it’s because it’s early or because I’m getting sick. So let me stop sharing my screen, and let me just open up for questions. And, of course, if there are no questions on this technique, we can talk about anything else related to emails.
For reference, my niche is launches. So most of my emails are launch emails or launch sequences.
But also happy to talk about anything that you may be currently working through in your business as well. We’ve got forty minutes, so we have plenty of time.
Yes. Hello. Hi.
I wanted to ask in terms of, like, when to use this, because you you had a really great example afterwards, which is basically, like, win back.
Right? So you’re winning someone’s attention back by saying, like, hey. Look. I’m a human tier. Here’s trust.
And I’m building that with you. Is so I work in b to b SaaS.
I’m just wondering if you think that there’s a specific, I guess, example of a fourth wall that you’ve seen before that would be really helpful, to win someone’s attention back. Because most people sign up for a thing and then, like, drop off, get busy, ignore it.
Yeah. So have you seen anything that sort of stood out to you in terms of that?
Very good question. So obviously, b to b SaaS is not my not my niche, but let’s talk about it. So you’re saying one of the key problems there is that people, drop off what movie got? Sorry. I could just move because you’re I went down.
So one of the key problems there is that you people don’t engage with what they’ve signed up for. Is that right?
Is that the Yeah.
Like, I’ll give you a real life example. I signed up for a new video making tool called Clipping, I think. And, almost immediately, like, hit a snag. I needed to put a video of my phone into the computer.
I was busy. Something happened. I walked away. And then I came back, and I was busy with other stuff, and it just dropped off.
And then, eventually, I got an email. I didn’t even open it. I just looked at the email subject line and went, oh, yeah. I signed up for that thing, And then went back into the tool.
Right?
But I imagine there’s a scenario in which I do open that email, and I do need to be reengaged and reminded of the initial belief I had in that in that product that I signed up for.
So in that scenario, would it be like would I be writing a founder’s letter essentially? Like, oh, I spent all this time and energy developing this thing. That feels kind of twenty nineteen.
Yeah.
So I guess what’s the twenty twenty four version of that? Like, trust me. I put a lot of effort into this.
Yes. No. Great question. Thank you so much for the context because that makes it so much easier for me to talk to.
So depending on the brand and their tone of voice, etcetera, there could even be a scenario there where if someone in that business has, like, started to use that video software to, like, record themselves and then, like, mid recording, they leave because they’re like, oh, someone’s at the door. Like, whatever happens. If it’s like a b roll of that, that could be a great way of breaking the fourth wall because it’s demonstrating it’s normalizing the fact that, like, hey. You know, even with the best intentions, even when you sit down to use this thing, shit can still happen.
You know, come back in. Here’s why we should really be using it. Here’s here’s all the things that offers you, you know, what you’re looking for right now. So that could be quite an extreme version of breaking the fourth wall.
And, again, may not be appropriate depending on the brand and the brand voice and the brand values, etcetera.
But it is sort of like offering a deeper peek into the reality of someone’s experience that goes farther beyond just a founder’s letter. Right? If you see and I don’t know what the video is. If it is like something where you record yourself, maybe if it’s not that, then that might not be so relevant.
But does that spark any ideas?
Oh, yeah. That that totally does. I I think, I think the real underlying question that I’m trying to ask is how do you talk about you without making it about you? But I think you answered that by saying it’s kinda like, Ryan Reynolds’ humor. It’s global. Right? Like, it applies to everyone.
Yes.
That sort of is how it feels, I guess. Like, that whole I got busy and distracted thing could apply to anyone. You know? That’s a very human thing to to do.
Yes.
Yeah. Great. Sorry. Thank you. It’s late here, by the way.
So if that was a weird and it’s early here, so don’t worry.
It was a world sandwich. So I think when you’re talking about like, you know, when we’re talking about that question, I think it’s really important that you’re not going into an email thinking, how can I use this technique? You’re going into the email still being incredibly focused on the strategic intent of this individual email. It’s then a question of, is there space to use this? Is there something I have here that I could leverage in this way?
So I suspect it may be easier to consider that when you’re not leading with that question of, oh, how can I break the fourth wall? It’s something that you almost have in the Filofax in your mind of like, oh, this could be a great place to use this thing that I have.
In terms of making sure that when you do this, it’s not just making it all about you. I mean, having a strategic intent of email in mind is key, but also thinking like, okay, does what I’m sharing here actually add some sort of value for the person reading, and I and in a way that is not me taking the spotlight. So in the example we just talked about where you could have, like, a b roll of, like, you know, you’re recording yourself and then answering the doorbell, for example. The idea of that would be to normalize the fact that even with the best intentions, you know, you can still not follow through.
So if it’s normalizing an experience that your prospect is currently having, they are still centered in that conversation. Right? It almost frees them up to like, oh, okay. Yeah.
Cool. So I’m not a bad person for not, you know, already having created thirty seven videos by now. Like, that’s okay. It sort of lowers the bar for them, which makes it easy for them to opt in.
I’m trying to think of other examples.
When you are, like, peeling back the curtain to demonstrate the thought behind what they’re seeing in the email, for example, while, yes, you’re talking about yourself, the idea there is that you are giving the person reading the email something that they’re really hungry for. They’re hungry for those insights. They’re hungry to see an expert at work. So, again, even though you’re using yourself in that scenario, and talking through your own thoughts and decisions, it’s not just so that it’s like the Kirsty show. Right? It’s always gotta be with the prospect in mind and what’s in it for them. So I think if you just start thinking about the strategic intent of the email and then consider whether you can actually include this technique afterwards.
You won’t get so tripped up. Does that help?
Cool.
Marina. Sorry. I can see you. Fully timed cough.
I know. I was like, clear the throat before I get on.
So following up with Claire’s question, which, Claire, yes, your question made sense. Good question. I was like, you beat me to it, but with Nuance, a little bit.
So, again, b two b SaaS, thinking with SaaS, you don’t have the reams and reams of copy that you do in launch, and it’s a little less emotive than launch copy.
But then I was thinking, what about in a webinar or workshop show up sequence or post workshop? Well, primarily thinking pre workshop emails. So you have the host, and you wanna make that connection with you want the readers to connect with the host so they show up to the workshop.
Yes.
So is that a place where you could strategically, even in a p s, one line that just is something a little personal related to the topic, but would tweak some interest and go, oh, this person gets me.
And then even in the in the webinar follow-up or workshop follow-up email post workshop, then would you break the fourth wall and reference, I was gonna say, a joke that happened during like, something that happened during the workshop that was sort of that connecting moment in the workshop.
So then, again, it would give people maybe that dopamine hit of, like, oh, yeah. I’m connected to this person who’s at this big company, and they recognize, like, I’m part of this kind of private joke thing. Like, is that kind of the strategic use of that?
Yeah. Definitely. So as you say, if you work in industry where the person behind the thing is often hard to access or or not necessarily humanized, then this can absolutely be a really great technique to use to do that, right. To take someone from sort of some unknown entity into someone who is very real and relatable.
So even that last example I said, shared with that line about, you know, my to do list had to write today’s email.
I didn’t do it. And hey, you know, ironically, the thing was all about procrastination. So even like something like that, that’s really simple, but again, does create an opportunity to really foster some sort of relationship that can be a really valuable use, of this technique. And I guess too, keeping in mind this technique, well, I mean, it can often look and feel like a lot of other similar techniques that you may have seen before. Right? It’s it’s I guess in some scenarios, it’s not so cut and dry, because you could use, for example, like, I could say that, you know, some of the examples we’ve just spoken about, like Claire, that might actually just be a use of normalizing in your copy. You’re normalizing the fact that, you know, we all sign up for things with good intentions and then we forget to, for whatever reason, or we don’t get to engage with them as we’d intended.
But I think when you take it a step further and you think about how you’re doing that normalising, that’s when this technique can come into play. So again, in the example with Claire, like, you know, actually sharing that video, for example, is inviting them like a step further in. So with what you’re talking about Marina, yeah, definitely. Maybe it could even be if there is some moment that happens in that workshop or webinar that you wanna reference back, you could even, you know, talk about, like, what was happening for the person presenting at that time, for example. Like, you could give them some sort of deeper insight to that moment as well as having a little flashback for them, but, again, only if it’s valuable.
So I don’t know if that helps, but it’s sort of like going a level deeper, and being more more theatrical, I guess, with it. Right? Which is sort of where this technique comes from. Does that help?
Yes. When you said, you know, you’re sharing that moment, and then it’s like, well, what was the speaker thinking about during like, as the host, you’re like, oh, shoot.
Yeah. How do I I’m supposed to know the answers and I don’t or whatever. Right? Like, something that because they’ve probably found themselves in that similar situation. So it’s kind of one level deeper than normalizing is what I’m hearing from you.
Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Good summary. Thank you.
Any other questions?
Yes. You can absolutely ask Mindshare sorry. Mindshare. Mindset questions, Andrew. Go nuts.
Cool.
Yeah.
I always like to when when you’re doing the coaching call, I always like to use this as an opportunity to exercise my mental demons a little bit.
So I kind of wrote down I wrote this down, but, I’ve just been noticing recently that I’ve been walking around, like, even outs probably more so outside of work than actually when I’m sitting at my computer. But, just walking around with, like, a lot of kind of head trash, I guess, we could call it, related to kind of, like, it it all kind of comes around a theme a little bit of, like, not not good enough, not being good enough, not doing so I just I wrote down a few of these, categories that it kind of comes into, and it’s like, I think a little bit of it is kind of like a a healthy drive to, like, keep getting better and and keep growing and stuff like that, but it definitely feels like it it doesn’t, like, it doesn’t shut off.
And it’s like it’s the kind of thing it’s like sort of, like, kinda keep me up at night kinda kind of thing or just, like, walking around with this kind of feeling of, like, I haven’t like, why haven’t I figured out kind of the the ideal way to do everything and, you know, a lot of unrealistic stuff. So the the four things I wrote down is, like, the first one is kind of just, like, generally not enough. I’m not good enough at what I do. I should be better.
A lot of comparison. This person is so good at that. Why am I not as good as that person? I’m not as good as as they are.
A lot of perfectionism is the third category. Like, oh, there’s gotta, like, there’s gotta be a better way to do what I’m doing, or maybe I’m doing the wrong thing altogether, and I should actually be doing this other thing and focusing my time there. And the last thing is, like, value. Like, oh, the thing like, what I do for my clients isn’t valuable enough. I wanna, you know, I wanna make more money. I wanna charge more, but I you know, it’s not what I’m doing is it doesn’t have enough value.
And, you know, I know I know all of those things are, you know, not true, and I’ve, you know, done plenty of, like, cognitive behavioral therapy, and I can, you know, sort of see the distortions in in all of that. But I guess I’m just wondering if you have any advice particularly, for the problem of just the like, I I have a hard time just kind of, like, putting that part of my mind away for, you know, say, okay. It’s, you know, it’s six PM. I’m gonna take the rest of the day and okay.
Mental like, whatever part of me that’s, like, you know, get better better. Not enough. Like, okay. I’ll, you know, put you in the drawer for until tomorrow, and then tomorrow, we can talk about ways to improve my business.
And so I guess I’m just wondering if you have any advice for and I’m I’m I hope I’m sure I can’t see people’s faces that well, but, like, hopefully, I’m not the only one who’s walking around with a lot of that.
Like, it’s it’s a very I think what we do, lends itself to a lot of this, for a lot of reasons. Like, one, that we’re kind of a lot of times we’re isolated. We also are in these, like, growth focused communities where we see all these people who are very smart and driven. So we’re comparing ourselves to, you know, oh, that person knows how to do this better, and so why should I even bother and all that stuff.
But, yeah, I don’t know. Do you have, a silver bullet to no. Just kidding. But do you have any advice on on that?
So yes. I wish I had a silver bullet. But first of all, I just want to confirm that as you were speaking, everyone was nodding along. And I think you’ve hit on really four key things that we all feel every single one of us, you know, at various times, sometimes at the same time. And I’m sorry that you’re in the space where they’re all hitting you at once because it’s kind of like the four horsemen of the apocalypse when you’re dealing with all four at once.
Because it sounds like you have maybe been to therapy or seen a therapist previously, has anyone ever awesome. Has anyone ever suggested the paradoxical intervention to you at any point in time? Is that ringing any bells?
So the term paradoxical in that context, it makes me think of, like, I’ve heard it in the context of, like, if you think that I don’t know. Like, you think that you’re you’re, like, panicking and you think your anxiety is, like, gonna kill you, that you kind of, like, lean into that a little bit of, like, okay. I’m gonna see if I can I’m gonna see if my anxiety like, my panic can kill me or something like is it kind of like that where you kind of go you, you kind of go the opposite way that you would expect?
Like instead of fighting it, you tell me what you’re telling me.
I think what I would suggest in this scenario, because it sounds like, you know, the real problem here is that you can’t contain these thoughts. I mean, yes, ideally you wouldn’t be having them, but I think it’s unrealistic of me to say, no, there’s a place you’ll get to where you’ll never worry about any of these things.
You will. It’s just that the worry and the concern won’t stop you from taking action. Right? That’s the goal. So let’s set the bar there.
I think because you’re struggling to contain these thoughts and feelings and concerns, I would actually love to see you, like, give them space on your calendar and just try it for a week. Like maybe you have an hour of worry time.
And the idea there is that when you actually create space to do the thing that you’re, I guess, subconsciously trying to avoid because I think we can all you know, relate to the fact that when you get into those thought spirals, there’s a bit of you that’s like scared that the fact that you’re in there means that you are all the things that you’re worried about. So I think it’s something we’re always trying to push out, you know, and push to later. But if you actually create dedicated space and time to it and sit down with all of those mindset gremlins, like actively like, you know, talk to them, let them come forward.
Ideally what will happen is that over the course of a few days or a couple of weeks, you’ll find that there’s quiet in your brain at other times because you’re giving them space to flourish.
So that’s what I would recommend. It’s actually, it’s what I used to do a lot when I was a therapist with various things, particularly things like insomnia.
When people couldn’t sleep, I’d say, all right, well, if you can’t sleep, like, let’s use the time. Like when you’re up at two am, I want you to clean your house.
They would typically like start sleeping well again.
So are you are you down to try that? Whatever time frame. It might just be half an hour every second day or something like that. But can you, like, give space, dedicated space to sitting with and worrying about these things?
Yeah. I think I could do that. And so, I guess so the idea is that during that time, I kinda I lean into it. I let it go. Okay.
I am gonna use this time and compare myself to someone else and Yes.
They’re better and think about how might I think. And then I guess when I feel so then when I feel that bubbling up, let’s say at night or as soon as I end this call, the because this is bubbling up, I guess, do I kinda say to myself of, like, oh, yeah. I have, like, time oh, yeah. Like, noon tomorrow. That’s when I’ll take care of that because I that’s when I’m supposed to think about that. Is that kind of the idea?
Yeah. So rather than having those thoughts come up and being like, oh, no. Like, not now. Like, oh, I don’t wanna have to deal with you. It’s like, oh, great. Let’s talk about that tomorrow at ten AM. I’m here for you then.
So if you’re keen, I would really suggest doing that.
And I and I know it sounds weird. That’s why it’s called Doxical Intervention.
Yeah. I’m not again, I’ve done enough therapy. I know that what, yeah, what what I don’t have any, concerns about something sounding silly or being weird. Like, if you told me to, I don’t know, like, put a put a crystal on my head and, like, you know, dance in in the rain or something, I’d be like, alright. I’ll try it. You know, whatever.
Okay. No. I appreciate that. Thank you very much, Chris. It helps.
Love it. And can I check-in with you over the next week and just see how that’s going? Is that okay?
Yes. You can. I’m gonna put it on my calendar right now so that I do it. I’m gonna put it’s gonna look like the Grinch’s schedule. I’m gonna put I think I might do it daily. I may I might do fifteen minutes a day or something like that.
So Perfect.
Love it. Okay. I’m gonna check-in with you early next week and see how it’s going.
Thank you.
My pleasure. Kim.
Okay. So, I have a question.
So yesterday, Joanna actually posted something on LinkedIn that was about one of my clients. And it is about, enterprises and how should you use buzzwords or jargon if you are approaching enterprise clients?
And, of course, no is the answer.
So this is an issue I have with this client. I actually work on long form content for them, not copywriting. So I’m doing ebooks and guides and that kind of thing. But it’s something I would like to approach with them, but I’m not sure how to approach it with my client.
You know, I don’t wanna show her Joe’s post to kinda put them on blast. And I also feel like it might like, I could tell my client really likes these this terminology. I don’t think she’s in charge of this specific messaging. It’s basically their messaging.
It’s it’s a large sales tech company. And I do know salespeople love buzzwords, so there there’s one aspect of that. But at the same time, there’s definitely some jargon cleanup that could happen. And I’m just wondering if you, Kirsty, or anyone on the call has any thoughts about how I might broach that subject with this client.
Yeah. So I have some thoughts, and then I would love to hear from everyone else.
I wonder when you get presented perhaps with, you know, a particularly problematic buzzword, could you just pretend to be really curious and say something like, I’m just curious. Like, what do you think if if if we said this to whoever the ideal prospect is, like, would they know what we’re talking about?
Could it be as simple as that? Could it be as simple as getting them to, like, get to the conclusion that you want them to make where it’s like, oh, well, I mean, probably not. They might have to read x, y, and zed. And it’s like, oh, well, is this actually the point of what we’re doing here? Is the point to connect with and be understood immediately as opposed to have to really invest mental time and energy to get to the point where we’re speaking the same language.
I’ve done that before with a couple of coaching clients who really wanted to use not jargon, but just like very, airy fairy terms that at the end of the day were quite meaningless and were definitely terms that they themselves use selves used and not their clients or prospects. So I have found that taking that really curious standpoint and just asking a question, can often be the inroad into the conversation where they realize the thing that you’re trying to teach them. And of course, if they have the realization, they’re much more likely to be on board with making the changes because they’re not feeling pushed into doing something. They feel like it’s kind of their own idea and they get to own it.
So that would be my suggestion. But what else have people in the room used, or what else can people identify as something that may be worth a crack?
It may be a lost cause because this this these words, which are essentially what you see in tech a lot, they’re just overly complex words for something that would be much better explained with very simple language.
And that’s what I do in the guides, and then my client will go back in there and be like, literally yesterday when I saw Joe’s post, my client had just that day yesterday replaced something that I had written with that buzzword. So it was kinda funny.
But, yeah. And, anyway, that’s baked into their key narrative for right now for this time. So but, yeah, I still wanna hear ideas. Yeah. Please, Andrew.
Yeah. So I I have some thoughts on this. I have a customer who’s kind of like this as well. And so, you know, I think that and and by the way, do you know Josh Garofalo? Do you know who he is?
He on LinkedIn, he, shared Joanna’s post and then added some some interesting information on on top of that. That might be worth kind of reading that’s, like, kind of about, like, how it gets that way. And I do think that there’s a little bit of, like, with larger companies, with larger tech companies, it is a little bit of a losing battle, not in every situation, but, like, you know, Joanna showed the screenshot of the homepage hero.
And when a company get the tech company gets to a certain size, that homepage hero section is, in my experience, going to be impossible because you have, like, ten stakeholders who are these, like, highly paid people who are thinking about, you know, what do we do and how do we they take all of this information and they bring it together, and then they come up with this, like, very abstract sounding term that’s, like, maybe an accurate way to reflect what they do. But, of course, nobody knows what a, you know, revenue orchestration platform is. And so what what I’ve found is that there are certain places where you can fight the the battle and it’s worth it, and there are certain places where you can’t. And so the homepage hero, like, when I work I worked on a homepage with a company that kind of acts like this too where it’s a lot of buzzwords and stuff. And I what what I did is for that home page, because I knew it was gonna be like that, it was gonna be stakeholder hell.
First of all, I set up the the project in such a way where it was like, we’re gonna do a couple rounds of revisions, and then I’m handing it back to you, and your team does what your team does with it be just because I know I’ve been in that situation a million times before. But I find that they are a lot more and I still let them know. I still tell them that. But they’re a lot more receptive to that in other places.
And so I think that, like, in your you know, if you’re doing long form content, that might be a place where you have, like, a bit more ability to kinda push back and to say things like, okay. Like, as as Chrissy said, like and I’ve used almost that exact technique before of being like, you know, okay. And is that a term that, like, people who your cuss your prospects who are encountering this for the first time, is that something that they’re, like, they’re familiar with, or or or is that gonna be a new term for them? Right?
I know the answer. I know that’s a new term. They have no idea. And and I find that that often does like, there usually are people who will go to bat for that as well.
But, again, it’s like, I find it’s all about picking where you’re gonna fight that battle because on the whole like, the again, the homepage hero section, like, I don’t have any good advice for that.
I’ve never been at those larger organizations.
It’s just it’s just impossible. But, yeah, I don’t know if that was helpful at all, but, like, that this is such a such a common thing, and it’s because you have eight eight highly paid people who don’t know the first thing about writing copy who are writing the copy, essentially. So I don’t know if that’s helpful at all, but at least at least, I know that game. I know that game. Let’s just say that.
Yeah. Thanks for sharing. I guess I part part of what I was curious about is, would you ever would any would you ever share Joe’s post, like, with the client? I don’t think I should because it’s might be sort of a shoot the messenger type thing.
Yeah. And it’s like, who would get because you could get blamed, but also if someone gets the credit, it’s not you either. But that’s my like, it’s like either Johanna gets the claim gets the credit or you get the blame. I don’t know. That’s just my take, but I’ll pass it back to everyone else.
Actually seeing the post yet, Kim, but, my take in the difference of client you have a relationship with, you could feel a bit passive aggressive to sort of try and prove your point via someone else.
Totally. Yeah.
Yeah. So I think that that would be probably where I would land.
But so frustrating for you that, like, literally the same day this is happening, Joe puts up with me.
Funny.
I have a really good relationship with the client, actually. But yeah. So, anyway, I just wanted to bring it up and see what everyone had to say.
I guess, well, maybe a better question for you is how like, are you comfortable with the ways you’ve tried to communicate the fact that jargon is not best approach for the client? Like, is there more that you could do there, or do you feel like, look.
I’ve got one more I can do.
I I don’t think I, actually, I think the first few guides no. There’s there’s definitely more I can do. But at the same time, I don’t know I don’t think there’s gonna be a lot of give there because they’ve got things pretty set. And I know how they work, and and I know how I mean, I’ve worked at enterprise tech companies, and I’ve worked at, you know, enough of these places where I I know, Andrew, how it works.
Like, it’s once that messaging set until it changes again, it’s not gonna change. So yeah. But I still thought I’d see if anyone had any genius advice where I could you know? Someone might have some great ideas that would let me somehow bring it up and make some change.
So I just wanted to bring it up.
Yeah. I mean, I think the only reason I asked that last question is because, you know, like, sometimes in whatever copy you’re writing, you know, you can feel and know something so strongly, but no matter what you say, the client is still gonna change that thing at the end of the day. So I think for me, what’s important is have I articulated my reasoning to the point where I’m really confident that I’ve done all I can to get the most effective solution for this client? If I have, then I’ve done my part. Whereas if I feel like for whatever reason, if I’ve been nervous about stating my expertise or if I’ve been a bit worried about how the client might take it and I’ve reserved that part of me, then I feel like I haven’t done my job.
So I think it’s sort of about knowing where your control and your say ends and just making sure you’re doing a really good job of that part of the of the relationship, if that helps.
Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Thanks.
I have one more thing I can add if if you wanna hear it. Yeah. Absolutely.
I I always try to instead of making it my opinion versus their opinion thing, I I have this thing that I that I try to say early on with any client, which is, you know, my opinion doesn’t matter and your opinion doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is what the audience thinks.
And that way, it doesn’t it takes it out of being a power struggle between, you know, I’m the expert, you know, at copywriting, and I know better. And it it sort of just diffuses it. And then you can state your case as let’s test and see what results we get and then make an informed decision because all I really care about is your success.
So that’s just a different way of of reframing it.
That’s great.
That’s epic. Thanks, Stacy. Such good framing. Setting of expectations early on is often really key.
I have a few bits to add to it.
So sorry. I just suddenly lost my train of thought.
Okay. So for the whole jargon thing, I also read a post recently, which was, Mark just bashing, you know, all the words, right, that that usually come up, like supercharge and, unlock and level up kinda thing. And I actually made, like, a cute little GPT tool that does, like, a clarity, specificity, and, like, buzzword sweep on copy.
But that’s not my point. My point is that salespeople actually do kind of lean towards the jargon more than marketers. So I think as marketers, we might hate it more and as writers hate it even more, but perhaps salespeople don’t hate it quite as much or have even come to expect it because it’s so common among enterprises.
That was the one thing that I was, I was thinking as as I was going. And, then just wanted to plus one that technique of saying, look, it doesn’t matter whose opinion. Like, your opinion doesn’t matter. My opinion doesn’t matter. It’s definitely the audience’s opinion. That’s worked so well for me in the past.
And then also just saying when I deliver work, you know, let’s focus on tone, let’s focus on accuracy.
We’ve done all the research, all the hard work’s done.
We’re really just doing, like, a check to make sure that everything is on brand and accurate.
And that gets me some nice, easy, like, straightforward feedback.
So yeah.
Okay. I have a a follow-up question from that, which is socials. So I’ve recent someone told me, that I don’t seem like a corporate person, which is fair because I don’t think I do. And they were like, get off LinkedIn, get onto Twitter.
So I started posting on Twitter, and I’ve realized that I really really struggled to write social posts.
Like, if I have a template to follow, great. But Twitter is so short form, and it’s such like a consistent blast of information.
I just don’t know how to say stuff. Like, the whole adding value thing. I mean, I can regurgitate my knowledge, but it doesn’t feel like I’m adding value.
So I just wanted to ask psychologically, I suppose, what are your opinions on how to best allow yourself to be authentic on social media without saying, I went for a walk this morning and I saw a bunch of dogs and it was really nice. And, you know, like, what’s the balance?
Yeah.
So I mean, one thing that I think is good about platform like Twitter or is it still called x? I’m not on there, but I feel like it’s still called is it still called x these days? Who knows? Everyone says Twitch.
I know. I know. Elon Musk is so cranky that his rebrand never took off.
But and I think one of the good things about it from a mindset perspective is that it moves so fast. So something you put on there today, you know, unless it goes viral or gets a lot of traction, it’s probably not gonna really be seen again by tomorrow. Right?
Which if you think about it from an approach of what if I just use this as a testing ground and I just like top of mind thoughts, anything that I’m like, okay, that’s kind of interesting. Well, that’s kind of relevant. Pop it on there and see what resonates.
I think social media like that can be a really great place to test, to see what gets traction. And then you can dive deeper into those pieces that are really hitting the right note or resonating and even take them from that platform into other places to create bigger bits of content.
So I feel like just loosen the expectations a little bit on the fact that whatever you put on there has to be like incredibly thought through and incredibly polished.
Lean into the fact that it is quite a fast paced or fast moving space.
Because yeah, there’s some freedom, I think, in the fact that knowing that, you know, if you write something and it’s not great, you know, probably no one’s really gonna see it and that’s okay.
So that’s maybe a backwards tip for how I would approach things, but what what’s right for other people? Does anyone else sort of feel a bit hamstrung when it comes to what to share on on a platform like Twitter or X?
I find with those kind of platforms, like you were saying, it’s really helpful for me to remember that, like, it’s gonna pass so fast, so don’t put a lot of, like, stake into it.
And for me, I I have, like, the best results when I’m just when I’m not posting about business stuff, which makes me then comfortable to post about business stuff.
So if I’m like if I take the pressure off and I just, like, post about something random and then I start to see, oh, people are, like, engaging and people are responding, I’m like, oh, this is actually fun. Cool. And then the next time I go on, I’m more likely to actually post about something business related.
And so that’s something that’s kind of, like, helped me get more into the flow, but also, not always having to be the one who’s, like, making the main post, but engaging under other people’s stuff and responding and liking and and doing that kind of stuff and not always feeling like, okay. I have to post something about business, and I have to be the one who’s posting it, especially on days where I’m like, I feel like my brain’s not even here today. That’s the kinda way I approach it. Okay.
That makes total sense.
I think I need to follow some better people because, like, when I’m scrolling, I’m just really struggling. I’m like, yeah.
Like, build in public.
Just yeah.
I think I’m getting a lot of big messages.
It’s tiring.
Yeah. Claire, one thing to remember on social media, you kinda wanna use the eighty twenty rule. Eighty percent personal, twenty percent business or, like, ninety ten.
Most people wanna see about you. That’s what social media is, especially on Facebook and Instagram.
But one really important point that just came up is share and comment on other people’s posts, especially ones that relate to your business, to what you’re doing.
Got it.
Okay. So wait. Hold on. Does that mean that I should be posting the selfie I took of my walk this morning?
Like, is that I I stay off of x.
When it switched from Twitter, it’s like, I’m done. I have a thing with Elon Musk too.
Who doesn’t? Yeah.
But so I think x is a little different, especially since Musk got on, took it over. It’s a lot of you can see a lot of conspiracy theory stuff on there, a lot of weird stuff.
But if you find like minded business, somebody to follow, then like, post, and share or like, comment, and share on their posts. And then maybe, you know, get an idea for a post that you can put out there. It doesn’t have to be, you know, the dog walking. That’s usually face Instagram.
X is kinda geared more towards business.
Actually, I think it’s a little weirder than that, but it’s my personal opinion.
But, yeah, I think if you’re doing business posts, keep it to LinkedIn.
Okay. Cool.
That’s I’m on LinkedIn.
Just my opinion.
Pardon? Sorry.
On LinkedIn, same strategy, like, eighty percent personal stuff?
Link LinkedIn is strictly business, so I would make that all about your business.
Okay.
Yeah. That’s that’s what that platform is for. X Twitter x, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, you know, all those other social posts or social media platforms.
You know, that’s that eighty twenty rule. Make it about yourself.
Nobody likes to see post of dinners anymore, but something interesting.
A nice peaceful walk in the woods, show some trees swaying or something. I don’t know. But, yeah, eighty twenty. Throw your business in there, but most people just wanna see about your life and what you’re doing.
K. Yeah. Cool.
Thank you so much.
Mhmm.
Just for Claire, does anyone know of anyone on x or Twitter that is, like, doing a really good job of, like, nailing that balance? Jess, I mean, it sounds like you might be do you guys follow each other? I I just wonder if it could be helpful for you, Claire, to sort of have an example of, you know, what it can look like on there that might free you up a little bit, and get you in the rhythm of that platform a little bit more.
I’m actually not on Twitter, but I’m on threads, which I love.
Yes.
I know who used to do a lot of Twitter.
She’s probably still there. Rachel Pilcher? Pilcher?
Yes. She did used to be quite active on there.
Or she she was in the intensive freelancer.
You know, there are there are business, accounts and professionals who do mostly business stuff on x and on Instagram, but it’s just that that’s the way that they’ve positioned their accounts from the beginning. You know, it’s not their personal account. It’s it’s an account for business. I I know several colleagues who have business focused Instagram and x accounts, and that is just you know, it’s part of their strategy. So it just depends on how you choose to use it. I personally would never use x because the shelf life of a tweet is fifteen minutes, and that’s just, you know, not my thing. And and I don’t like the platform since, since Elon took it over either.
Yes. Show of hands. How many don’t like Elon Musk? Alright. Majority.
That’s funny because he’s actually South African, and I’m South African. So Oh, it’s we produced him. Sorry.
So good.
But, yeah, I mean, Stacy’s right. I mean, you can do business. If you’ve got a business account, definitely, that’s how you where you post your business at.
Yeah. I have something to say. So I use Facebook sometimes, and I’ve had it for a long time. But what I find works for me a lot is, like, if I see a post that I have a different opinion about, then I can use that, like, a spin off of that and, give my opinion about that.
And I think that works really well because it if you notice that the post the original post is doing well, and then you’re like, okay. Well, that’s doing good. Maybe I could do the opposing side of that. That might do good as well, and that, I find, is pretty good.
So that’s always an option too.
That’s good too. It’s often easier when you’re not trying to generate the original thought. If you have something to spring off or a conversation to join, it can just really help raise the wheels.
And I think as well consider how social media really helps build a three-dimensional version of your business and your presence because I suspect that the platforms add a different element to your online profile, if that makes sense.
So you’re not necessarily showing up exactly the same way in your emails. I mean, LinkedIn as you are on Instagram. There’s something there that can help build a really nice rounded picture of you, who you are, what you do.
Probably a lot of stuff to sit with, Claire. So but so many good points here. So thank you everyone for sharing your wisdom and your insights.
We’re at the top of the hour. I’ve gotta go get my kids off to daycare, so I better get going. But lovely to see you all. If you have any questions, or anything you wanna chat about, please ping me in Slack. I’m always around.
Otherwise, I will see you all next week.
Bye.
Transcript
Alright. Well, it’s, two past. So let me dive, into what I’ve got for all of you here today.
A few people may still join the room. Hey, Michelle. And you can hear us.
So obviously, I mean, you’re halfway through the current month now, so you are well and truly aware of the fact that the theme for this month is advanced emails.
The technique that I’m going to walk you through today is breaking the fourth wall, as a technique that really helps you, build authority and foster trust, in a really resonant way with the people who are reading your emails. So your prospects, your subscribers, etcetera.
Now, I suspect everyone in this room probably knows the phrase breaking the fourth wall. But just in case you don’t, or just in case it’s one of those things that you think you know, but you’re not quite sure, it comes from the world of theatre, and is based on the idea of the stage itself having three physical walls, like the back and then the two wings. And then there being the fourth imaginary wall that sits between the actors and the audience.
Now, obviously, therefore, breaking the fourth wall is when someone on stage, I guess, breaks out of the story itself or breaks out of character to interact directly with the audience themselves. And I was trying to think yesterday of some sort of more pop culture references for this because obviously it’s a technique that’s also used in movies and TV shows. And some that came to mind, which you may or may not have seen are Fleabag.
A great show, by the way, if you haven’t watched it. But she will often or sometimes, you know, make the face or not contact directly with the camera, so directly with the viewer that communicates a certain feeling, about the event she’s in. It’s usually done for comedic effect in that case.
House of Cards, Frank Underwood would often have those long monologues to camera, that revealed a bit more of himself and his character and his thought process for some of those episodes.
Martin Scorsese also uses it quite a bit in his movies.
Wolf of Wall Street, for example, if you’ve seen it, fits in my mind because of the book that’s, that Joe set for next month. There’s a part where he’s walking through the office and I think he’s explaining what an IPO is, and he’s doing that to camera. So he’s breaking the fourth wall. So I think the key thing to remember here as we begin talking about how to take this technique and apply it to email is that it’s something that is always done strategically and always done quite sparingly. If it’s something that you end up doing too often, it becomes gimmicky really quickly. So you really need a good rationale for doing it in your emails.
Now let me share my screen, so that I can it’ll take you through, a bit of what I’ve got on this worksheet, but also some examples here that I have, ready and waiting for you.
Sorry. And I’m always very bad at getting my screen set up. There we go. Okay.
So, when it comes to emails, I think we can agree that usually your prospect gets the end product of your strategy, right? You do all the research, you do all the thoughts, you write all the copy and they really see the outcome of all that work.
They get the fully cake, baked cake, so to speak. So this technique is all about inviting them in to show them the recipe as a way to establish authority and build trust.
So I’ve got, three examples of when I have used this for myself and my clients, and it’s worked really well. And happily, they seem to fit into three pretty constant or consistent scenarios.
I have, of course, tried to use this technique in more, but I haven’t necessarily seen a measurable impact, of leveraging it, leveraging it in this way. So, I mean, let’s stick with what I know works.
So the first scenario where breaking the fourth wall in your emails is usually very effective is if or when you’ve gathered proof in response to a direct question or objection. So it could be if you, you or your client is in launch, or it could just be, you know, if generally someone has approached you or your client and is interested in finding out more about something.
Now, the reason that this works so well is because it not only allows you to prove the point that you’re making, you know, thanks to the proof that you’re presenting, But it also helps position you as really responsive and genuine, which is especially powerful in this era where transparency is super sexy and compelling. Long may it rain. So I’ll, just take you now to an example of what this can look like in practice so you can see what I’m on about.
And by the way, I’m very happy to share all these emails with you as well.
So if you would like, to look at these, because as you can see, some of them are quite long. If you would like to look at the entirety of them, in your own time, please feel free to ask.
But for context, this is an email that I sent out, as an FAQ email through one of my own launches, back in twenty twenty for my copywriting, program called Brain Camp. So there’s lots of copy here that is not relevant to what we’re talking about. The piece I want to draw your attention to is here. This is one of the questions or statements, I guess, that came through during launch. I had phone my last time, so I’m really keen to get involved this time. If I can make it work financially, we’ll have to have a ponder.
I do have some copy here that speaks to the more emotional side, of that question or that objection.
And then I get into the logical stuff. And this is where I break the fourth wall in this email.
So emotions aside, I also wanted to make sure I could answer this question for you in more tangible terms. So I reached out to last one of last rounds campus at a light for Chrissy Chiodo with this question. And And as you can see, this is me breaking the fourth wall. This is me really letting someone into the process of how this email is built.
And of course it’s done strategically because what I’ve done here is I have screenshotted the literal DM and question that I sent her. Oh, hello. Currently, Radne, I’ll take your email for tomorrow and there are a lot of queues around finances. Just curious.
Any idea how long it took for you to see financial returns from Braincamp last year? And then also, of course, sharing a screenshot of her response.
Now typically, right, the conventional rule for email and using social proof like this, just as the conventional rule for theater where you don’t break that fourth wall, is that you may just include a screenshot of, say, this part of her response, or you may even take sentences or phrases from this and put it into, you know, a testimonial of sorts with her name attached. But what I’m doing here is actually showing, I guess, the whole, chain of this interaction, not only to help prove the point that there is ROI for this offer, but also to show that, hey, I’m really responsive to questions, which in this case is important, right?
Because I’m towards the end of my launch and I really want to make sure that anyone who has a question on their mind is going to reach out and ask it. And also to be really transparent and show that I have nothing to hide. Like I’m not any of this proof here. This is literally what’s come through to me, as you can see.
Ina does go on to include more traditional, methods and means of social proof, so just the screenshots themselves. But can you see the difference here between just including things like this is just like an answer to the question and actually inviting your prospect to come on the journey with you of how you’re going to get this piece of the puzzle?
Is that making sense?
Yep. Okay. Cool. And of course, if it’s not, ask me questions.
But I will keep going in lieu of questions now. Thumbs up. Amazing. Thanks, Marina.
Sorry. I’m very bad. There we go. Okay. So the second scenario where breaking the fourth wall is usually very effective is when you’re positioning yourself or your client as an expert strategist and therefore want to show off your thought process.
So when the magic is not only in what you’re doing, but in how you made the decision to get there. Now, of course, for the most part, emails are, because they should be, like I mentioned earlier, a result of you doing all the things you need to do to get your prospect to take the action you want them to take without them necessarily understanding the mechanics of what’s at play. But in this scenario, where it’s actually really valuable for them to see what an expert you are at something that you do, it can be very, strategic to actually break that fourth wall. So here’s an example of what, that one looks like.
Oh, you know what I’ve done?
I closed one of my tabs. Hold on a sec. Let me stop share so I can dig back through my inbox. Sorry, guys. That’s my uncle. Zoom thing is at work.
It’s alright. I know what the email is called, so it will not be long to find.
Right. Sorry about that, guys.
K. Let me share my screen again.
There we go. Pull it again. Okay. So here we are. This email strategy strategy strategy, is one that I sent out actually just a few months ago. I was part of Brenna McGowan’s behind the launch, which you may have heard of. I actually think Ry was part of it a few years ago.
But basically it is where she has boxer conversations with different people in the launch space and ask them what worked really well on your last launch, and then sells those conversations as a resource for other business owners.
So anyway, I obviously had to promote this thing that I was part of, which is part of the deal in which is great.
I start this email, which is important with this sentence. I said yes to a bunch of glorious opportunities when I was still on maternity leave. I then go on to promote behind the launch. And I won’t read through that because it’s not the point of what I’m trying to show you. Then we get to the PS. What I didn’t consider when I heck yes ed my way through a bunch of invites like Prenders to events on Deep In My Bones Chuck to be part of was how the timing of them and associated promotion would align with my own promotion for various offers, including the last ever round of Braincamp.
Cause as you might’ve heard, it’s tricky to promote two things at once.
To be clear, the tricky part isn’t the bit where you reach a fresh audience and bring in new leads. That’s a hugely valuable asset leading up to launch. Even if timeframes are a bit squishy, just make sure you’ve considered how your choice of lead magnet can accelerate the process of know, like, and trust, as well as prime people for the offer they’re about to see. And remember to include opt out links so people can exercise informed consent.
The tricky part is all about legends like you, who are smack bang in the middle of a conversation designed to prime me for my own offer and working through how in this case, I can leverage my conversation with Brenna to help further your decision about whether or not you want to check out or jump into BrandCamp on open enrollments next week, rather than letting it be a distraction from that decision because, oh, look, I already joined a thing and am learning.
Real talk. But you know what? My chat with Brenna and how I promote it provides an opportunity for me to demonstrate some of the key outcomes Braincamp offers, Like not never having to rely on a template to write copy, the grounding kind of confidence that allows you to craft strategy and write copy in real time because you know what to say when and no longer fit it by the blank page. And the trust you have in your ability to work things out because you understand the mechanics of what works and why. And then it goes on to have a CTA again to join the Grandcamp wait list, which really was my key goal for this email because of the timing of the promotion.
So, of course, I could have left all this PS out, right, and just let it be a promotion for behind the launch and hoped and trusted that if anyone did actually take brand up on that offer, my conversation sort of led them back to my wait list.
But what I have done here is really unpacked the strategy of what is happening in this email. And again, I’m breaking the fourth wall in this way and inviting my prospect in on the journey that’s happening inside my mind.
Now, why I decided to do this for this email is because my ideal prospect for Braincamp is someone who wants to learn more about copy and specifically about how and why things work. So being able to step them through the strategy, at least in this scenario really helps position me as someone who is qualified to teach that course, I’m also able to bring it back to some of the key outcomes of Braincamp, which is obviously beneficial as well. But I’m really inviting people into the how and why of what I’m doing rather than just writing a different form of this email that didn’t have, I guess, that didn’t lift the lid on the mechanics. It didn’t show them what was going on under the hood.
Does that make sense?
Yep.
K. Cool. And, again, I’m very happy to share these emails with you later if you would like to see them as as holes.
Okay. The third scenario where breaking the fourth wall is usually very effective is a much simpler one. It can be done with a single sentence, which may make some of you happy.
It’s when you want to normalize a thought, feeling, or action to reduce friction around it and or position yourself or your client as relatable.
So for this one, a super quick, simple, easy example.
It’s kind of like a damaging ignition, but as you can see, it’s a bit more tightly linked to, the email itself.
One of the items on my to do list last Friday was write primary email for next month’s Reflective Practise Club. I didn’t do it, which makes now feel like the perfect time to mention the theme for next month’s club is tackling procrastination.
So again, it is just inviting people into your decision making process in what you’re actually putting in that email rather than delivering them the end product of all of that without inviting them in to see the process of how you get there. So again, you’re breaking that convention of email deliberately, strategically in situations where you where you’re confident that it’s actually gonna be beneficial for your strategy.
Now, as you can see, some different ways you can actually enact this technique is via screenshots. Obviously that’s particularly relevant if you are enacting this technique in relation to social proof.
Also commentary on or side notes about or explanations of your approach.
And of course just figuratively inviting your prospect into the room with you as you’re right. So what’s going through your head? What are you noticing? What are you feeling or responding to? And of course that can be a really great way with the right prospect and the right offhand, the right audience to actually, demonstrate some of that strategic know how. So in the scenario where the magic is not only in what you’re doing, but how you’re making a decision to actually do it.
So I’m sure there’ll be lots of questions because as you can tell, this technique does rely a lot on context, but just to reference this in case you will find it useful later. And you may not. Right? You may not need this.
So feel free to use or ignore this at will. But it’s a quick table that you can use just to help identify where in a certain sequence it may be valuable or strategically appropriate to actually break the fourth wall. So in the examples I’ve got here, I’m just assuming that there is, a nurture sequence on the back of lead magnet that is designed to teach the subscriber how to increase their email engagement. So the first email in that sequence is the lead magnet delivery.
The strategic intent of that email is that the subscriber engages with the lead magnet. Would it be appropriate and available to break the fourth wall here? No. Probably not.
It’s a simple email. We don’t need to get too tricky with it. The second email in the sequence is a lead magnet reminder that would go out to those who haven’t engaged with that lead magnet in forty eight hours. The strategic intent of that email is to unact is that unactivated subscribers engage with that lead magnet.
Now in this case, since the lead magnet itself is all about increasing email engagement, there may actually be a case for breaking the fourth wall here because you’re sending this email out to people who haven’t engaged with that lead magnet because you know that that increases engagement, not just with the lead magnet, but with also your list and your emails as a result. So you could actually break the fourth wall here and let people into the strategic intent and the strategic decisions that you’re making about when to send that email and why to send that email. So in that case, this could actually be, a really beneficial use of the technique.
Okay. I feel like I’ve talked long enough, and my voice is quite creaky this morning too. Sorry about that. I don’t know if it’s because it’s early or because I’m getting sick. So let me stop sharing my screen, and let me just open up for questions. And, of course, if there are no questions on this technique, we can talk about anything else related to emails.
For reference, my niche is launches. So most of my emails are launch emails or launch sequences.
But also happy to talk about anything that you may be currently working through in your business as well. We’ve got forty minutes, so we have plenty of time.
Yes. Hello. Hi.
I wanted to ask in terms of, like, when to use this, because you you had a really great example afterwards, which is basically, like, win back.
Right? So you’re winning someone’s attention back by saying, like, hey. Look. I’m a human tier. Here’s trust.
And I’m building that with you. Is so I work in b to b SaaS.
I’m just wondering if you think that there’s a specific, I guess, example of a fourth wall that you’ve seen before that would be really helpful, to win someone’s attention back. Because most people sign up for a thing and then, like, drop off, get busy, ignore it.
Yeah. So have you seen anything that sort of stood out to you in terms of that?
Very good question. So obviously, b to b SaaS is not my not my niche, but let’s talk about it. So you’re saying one of the key problems there is that people, drop off what movie got? Sorry. I could just move because you’re I went down.
So one of the key problems there is that you people don’t engage with what they’ve signed up for. Is that right?
Is that the Yeah.
Like, I’ll give you a real life example. I signed up for a new video making tool called Clipping, I think. And, almost immediately, like, hit a snag. I needed to put a video of my phone into the computer.
I was busy. Something happened. I walked away. And then I came back, and I was busy with other stuff, and it just dropped off.
And then, eventually, I got an email. I didn’t even open it. I just looked at the email subject line and went, oh, yeah. I signed up for that thing, And then went back into the tool.
Right?
But I imagine there’s a scenario in which I do open that email, and I do need to be reengaged and reminded of the initial belief I had in that in that product that I signed up for.
So in that scenario, would it be like would I be writing a founder’s letter essentially? Like, oh, I spent all this time and energy developing this thing. That feels kind of twenty nineteen.
Yeah.
So I guess what’s the twenty twenty four version of that? Like, trust me. I put a lot of effort into this.
Yes. No. Great question. Thank you so much for the context because that makes it so much easier for me to talk to.
So depending on the brand and their tone of voice, etcetera, there could even be a scenario there where if someone in that business has, like, started to use that video software to, like, record themselves and then, like, mid recording, they leave because they’re like, oh, someone’s at the door. Like, whatever happens. If it’s like a b roll of that, that could be a great way of breaking the fourth wall because it’s demonstrating it’s normalizing the fact that, like, hey. You know, even with the best intentions, even when you sit down to use this thing, shit can still happen.
You know, come back in. Here’s why we should really be using it. Here’s here’s all the things that offers you, you know, what you’re looking for right now. So that could be quite an extreme version of breaking the fourth wall.
And, again, may not be appropriate depending on the brand and the brand voice and the brand values, etcetera.
But it is sort of like offering a deeper peek into the reality of someone’s experience that goes farther beyond just a founder’s letter. Right? If you see and I don’t know what the video is. If it is like something where you record yourself, maybe if it’s not that, then that might not be so relevant.
But does that spark any ideas?
Oh, yeah. That that totally does. I I think, I think the real underlying question that I’m trying to ask is how do you talk about you without making it about you? But I think you answered that by saying it’s kinda like, Ryan Reynolds’ humor. It’s global. Right? Like, it applies to everyone.
Yes.
That sort of is how it feels, I guess. Like, that whole I got busy and distracted thing could apply to anyone. You know? That’s a very human thing to to do.
Yes.
Yeah. Great. Sorry. Thank you. It’s late here, by the way.
So if that was a weird and it’s early here, so don’t worry.
It was a world sandwich. So I think when you’re talking about like, you know, when we’re talking about that question, I think it’s really important that you’re not going into an email thinking, how can I use this technique? You’re going into the email still being incredibly focused on the strategic intent of this individual email. It’s then a question of, is there space to use this? Is there something I have here that I could leverage in this way?
So I suspect it may be easier to consider that when you’re not leading with that question of, oh, how can I break the fourth wall? It’s something that you almost have in the Filofax in your mind of like, oh, this could be a great place to use this thing that I have.
In terms of making sure that when you do this, it’s not just making it all about you. I mean, having a strategic intent of email in mind is key, but also thinking like, okay, does what I’m sharing here actually add some sort of value for the person reading, and I and in a way that is not me taking the spotlight. So in the example we just talked about where you could have, like, a b roll of, like, you know, you’re recording yourself and then answering the doorbell, for example. The idea of that would be to normalize the fact that even with the best intentions, you know, you can still not follow through.
So if it’s normalizing an experience that your prospect is currently having, they are still centered in that conversation. Right? It almost frees them up to like, oh, okay. Yeah.
Cool. So I’m not a bad person for not, you know, already having created thirty seven videos by now. Like, that’s okay. It sort of lowers the bar for them, which makes it easy for them to opt in.
I’m trying to think of other examples.
When you are, like, peeling back the curtain to demonstrate the thought behind what they’re seeing in the email, for example, while, yes, you’re talking about yourself, the idea there is that you are giving the person reading the email something that they’re really hungry for. They’re hungry for those insights. They’re hungry to see an expert at work. So, again, even though you’re using yourself in that scenario, and talking through your own thoughts and decisions, it’s not just so that it’s like the Kirsty show. Right? It’s always gotta be with the prospect in mind and what’s in it for them. So I think if you just start thinking about the strategic intent of the email and then consider whether you can actually include this technique afterwards.
You won’t get so tripped up. Does that help?
Cool.
Marina. Sorry. I can see you. Fully timed cough.
I know. I was like, clear the throat before I get on.
So following up with Claire’s question, which, Claire, yes, your question made sense. Good question. I was like, you beat me to it, but with Nuance, a little bit.
So, again, b two b SaaS, thinking with SaaS, you don’t have the reams and reams of copy that you do in launch, and it’s a little less emotive than launch copy.
But then I was thinking, what about in a webinar or workshop show up sequence or post workshop? Well, primarily thinking pre workshop emails. So you have the host, and you wanna make that connection with you want the readers to connect with the host so they show up to the workshop.
Yes.
So is that a place where you could strategically, even in a p s, one line that just is something a little personal related to the topic, but would tweak some interest and go, oh, this person gets me.
And then even in the in the webinar follow-up or workshop follow-up email post workshop, then would you break the fourth wall and reference, I was gonna say, a joke that happened during like, something that happened during the workshop that was sort of that connecting moment in the workshop.
So then, again, it would give people maybe that dopamine hit of, like, oh, yeah. I’m connected to this person who’s at this big company, and they recognize, like, I’m part of this kind of private joke thing. Like, is that kind of the strategic use of that?
Yeah. Definitely. So as you say, if you work in industry where the person behind the thing is often hard to access or or not necessarily humanized, then this can absolutely be a really great technique to use to do that, right. To take someone from sort of some unknown entity into someone who is very real and relatable.
So even that last example I said, shared with that line about, you know, my to do list had to write today’s email.
I didn’t do it. And hey, you know, ironically, the thing was all about procrastination. So even like something like that, that’s really simple, but again, does create an opportunity to really foster some sort of relationship that can be a really valuable use, of this technique. And I guess too, keeping in mind this technique, well, I mean, it can often look and feel like a lot of other similar techniques that you may have seen before. Right? It’s it’s I guess in some scenarios, it’s not so cut and dry, because you could use, for example, like, I could say that, you know, some of the examples we’ve just spoken about, like Claire, that might actually just be a use of normalizing in your copy. You’re normalizing the fact that, you know, we all sign up for things with good intentions and then we forget to, for whatever reason, or we don’t get to engage with them as we’d intended.
But I think when you take it a step further and you think about how you’re doing that normalising, that’s when this technique can come into play. So again, in the example with Claire, like, you know, actually sharing that video, for example, is inviting them like a step further in. So with what you’re talking about Marina, yeah, definitely. Maybe it could even be if there is some moment that happens in that workshop or webinar that you wanna reference back, you could even, you know, talk about, like, what was happening for the person presenting at that time, for example. Like, you could give them some sort of deeper insight to that moment as well as having a little flashback for them, but, again, only if it’s valuable.
So I don’t know if that helps, but it’s sort of like going a level deeper, and being more more theatrical, I guess, with it. Right? Which is sort of where this technique comes from. Does that help?
Yes. When you said, you know, you’re sharing that moment, and then it’s like, well, what was the speaker thinking about during like, as the host, you’re like, oh, shoot.
Yeah. How do I I’m supposed to know the answers and I don’t or whatever. Right? Like, something that because they’ve probably found themselves in that similar situation. So it’s kind of one level deeper than normalizing is what I’m hearing from you.
Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Good summary. Thank you.
Any other questions?
Yes. You can absolutely ask Mindshare sorry. Mindshare. Mindset questions, Andrew. Go nuts.
Cool.
Yeah.
I always like to when when you’re doing the coaching call, I always like to use this as an opportunity to exercise my mental demons a little bit.
So I kind of wrote down I wrote this down, but, I’ve just been noticing recently that I’ve been walking around, like, even outs probably more so outside of work than actually when I’m sitting at my computer. But, just walking around with, like, a lot of kind of head trash, I guess, we could call it, related to kind of, like, it it all kind of comes around a theme a little bit of, like, not not good enough, not being good enough, not doing so I just I wrote down a few of these, categories that it kind of comes into, and it’s like, I think a little bit of it is kind of like a a healthy drive to, like, keep getting better and and keep growing and stuff like that, but it definitely feels like it it doesn’t, like, it doesn’t shut off.
And it’s like it’s the kind of thing it’s like sort of, like, kinda keep me up at night kinda kind of thing or just, like, walking around with this kind of feeling of, like, I haven’t like, why haven’t I figured out kind of the the ideal way to do everything and, you know, a lot of unrealistic stuff. So the the four things I wrote down is, like, the first one is kind of just, like, generally not enough. I’m not good enough at what I do. I should be better.
A lot of comparison. This person is so good at that. Why am I not as good as that person? I’m not as good as as they are.
A lot of perfectionism is the third category. Like, oh, there’s gotta, like, there’s gotta be a better way to do what I’m doing, or maybe I’m doing the wrong thing altogether, and I should actually be doing this other thing and focusing my time there. And the last thing is, like, value. Like, oh, the thing like, what I do for my clients isn’t valuable enough. I wanna, you know, I wanna make more money. I wanna charge more, but I you know, it’s not what I’m doing is it doesn’t have enough value.
And, you know, I know I know all of those things are, you know, not true, and I’ve, you know, done plenty of, like, cognitive behavioral therapy, and I can, you know, sort of see the distortions in in all of that. But I guess I’m just wondering if you have any advice particularly, for the problem of just the like, I I have a hard time just kind of, like, putting that part of my mind away for, you know, say, okay. It’s, you know, it’s six PM. I’m gonna take the rest of the day and okay.
Mental like, whatever part of me that’s, like, you know, get better better. Not enough. Like, okay. I’ll, you know, put you in the drawer for until tomorrow, and then tomorrow, we can talk about ways to improve my business.
And so I guess I’m just wondering if you have any advice for and I’m I’m I hope I’m sure I can’t see people’s faces that well, but, like, hopefully, I’m not the only one who’s walking around with a lot of that.
Like, it’s it’s a very I think what we do, lends itself to a lot of this, for a lot of reasons. Like, one, that we’re kind of a lot of times we’re isolated. We also are in these, like, growth focused communities where we see all these people who are very smart and driven. So we’re comparing ourselves to, you know, oh, that person knows how to do this better, and so why should I even bother and all that stuff.
But, yeah, I don’t know. Do you have, a silver bullet to no. Just kidding. But do you have any advice on on that?
So yes. I wish I had a silver bullet. But first of all, I just want to confirm that as you were speaking, everyone was nodding along. And I think you’ve hit on really four key things that we all feel every single one of us, you know, at various times, sometimes at the same time. And I’m sorry that you’re in the space where they’re all hitting you at once because it’s kind of like the four horsemen of the apocalypse when you’re dealing with all four at once.
Because it sounds like you have maybe been to therapy or seen a therapist previously, has anyone ever awesome. Has anyone ever suggested the paradoxical intervention to you at any point in time? Is that ringing any bells?
So the term paradoxical in that context, it makes me think of, like, I’ve heard it in the context of, like, if you think that I don’t know. Like, you think that you’re you’re, like, panicking and you think your anxiety is, like, gonna kill you, that you kind of, like, lean into that a little bit of, like, okay. I’m gonna see if I can I’m gonna see if my anxiety like, my panic can kill me or something like is it kind of like that where you kind of go you, you kind of go the opposite way that you would expect?
Like instead of fighting it, you tell me what you’re telling me.
I think what I would suggest in this scenario, because it sounds like, you know, the real problem here is that you can’t contain these thoughts. I mean, yes, ideally you wouldn’t be having them, but I think it’s unrealistic of me to say, no, there’s a place you’ll get to where you’ll never worry about any of these things.
You will. It’s just that the worry and the concern won’t stop you from taking action. Right? That’s the goal. So let’s set the bar there.
I think because you’re struggling to contain these thoughts and feelings and concerns, I would actually love to see you, like, give them space on your calendar and just try it for a week. Like maybe you have an hour of worry time.
And the idea there is that when you actually create space to do the thing that you’re, I guess, subconsciously trying to avoid because I think we can all you know, relate to the fact that when you get into those thought spirals, there’s a bit of you that’s like scared that the fact that you’re in there means that you are all the things that you’re worried about. So I think it’s something we’re always trying to push out, you know, and push to later. But if you actually create dedicated space and time to it and sit down with all of those mindset gremlins, like actively like, you know, talk to them, let them come forward.
Ideally what will happen is that over the course of a few days or a couple of weeks, you’ll find that there’s quiet in your brain at other times because you’re giving them space to flourish.
So that’s what I would recommend. It’s actually, it’s what I used to do a lot when I was a therapist with various things, particularly things like insomnia.
When people couldn’t sleep, I’d say, all right, well, if you can’t sleep, like, let’s use the time. Like when you’re up at two am, I want you to clean your house.
They would typically like start sleeping well again.
So are you are you down to try that? Whatever time frame. It might just be half an hour every second day or something like that. But can you, like, give space, dedicated space to sitting with and worrying about these things?
Yeah. I think I could do that. And so, I guess so the idea is that during that time, I kinda I lean into it. I let it go. Okay.
I am gonna use this time and compare myself to someone else and Yes.
They’re better and think about how might I think. And then I guess when I feel so then when I feel that bubbling up, let’s say at night or as soon as I end this call, the because this is bubbling up, I guess, do I kinda say to myself of, like, oh, yeah. I have, like, time oh, yeah. Like, noon tomorrow. That’s when I’ll take care of that because I that’s when I’m supposed to think about that. Is that kind of the idea?
Yeah. So rather than having those thoughts come up and being like, oh, no. Like, not now. Like, oh, I don’t wanna have to deal with you. It’s like, oh, great. Let’s talk about that tomorrow at ten AM. I’m here for you then.
So if you’re keen, I would really suggest doing that.
And I and I know it sounds weird. That’s why it’s called Doxical Intervention.
Yeah. I’m not again, I’ve done enough therapy. I know that what, yeah, what what I don’t have any, concerns about something sounding silly or being weird. Like, if you told me to, I don’t know, like, put a put a crystal on my head and, like, you know, dance in in the rain or something, I’d be like, alright. I’ll try it. You know, whatever.
Okay. No. I appreciate that. Thank you very much, Chris. It helps.
Love it. And can I check-in with you over the next week and just see how that’s going? Is that okay?
Yes. You can. I’m gonna put it on my calendar right now so that I do it. I’m gonna put it’s gonna look like the Grinch’s schedule. I’m gonna put I think I might do it daily. I may I might do fifteen minutes a day or something like that.
So Perfect.
Love it. Okay. I’m gonna check-in with you early next week and see how it’s going.
Thank you.
My pleasure. Kim.
Okay. So, I have a question.
So yesterday, Joanna actually posted something on LinkedIn that was about one of my clients. And it is about, enterprises and how should you use buzzwords or jargon if you are approaching enterprise clients?
And, of course, no is the answer.
So this is an issue I have with this client. I actually work on long form content for them, not copywriting. So I’m doing ebooks and guides and that kind of thing. But it’s something I would like to approach with them, but I’m not sure how to approach it with my client.
You know, I don’t wanna show her Joe’s post to kinda put them on blast. And I also feel like it might like, I could tell my client really likes these this terminology. I don’t think she’s in charge of this specific messaging. It’s basically their messaging.
It’s it’s a large sales tech company. And I do know salespeople love buzzwords, so there there’s one aspect of that. But at the same time, there’s definitely some jargon cleanup that could happen. And I’m just wondering if you, Kirsty, or anyone on the call has any thoughts about how I might broach that subject with this client.
Yeah. So I have some thoughts, and then I would love to hear from everyone else.
I wonder when you get presented perhaps with, you know, a particularly problematic buzzword, could you just pretend to be really curious and say something like, I’m just curious. Like, what do you think if if if we said this to whoever the ideal prospect is, like, would they know what we’re talking about?
Could it be as simple as that? Could it be as simple as getting them to, like, get to the conclusion that you want them to make where it’s like, oh, well, I mean, probably not. They might have to read x, y, and zed. And it’s like, oh, well, is this actually the point of what we’re doing here? Is the point to connect with and be understood immediately as opposed to have to really invest mental time and energy to get to the point where we’re speaking the same language.
I’ve done that before with a couple of coaching clients who really wanted to use not jargon, but just like very, airy fairy terms that at the end of the day were quite meaningless and were definitely terms that they themselves use selves used and not their clients or prospects. So I have found that taking that really curious standpoint and just asking a question, can often be the inroad into the conversation where they realize the thing that you’re trying to teach them. And of course, if they have the realization, they’re much more likely to be on board with making the changes because they’re not feeling pushed into doing something. They feel like it’s kind of their own idea and they get to own it.
So that would be my suggestion. But what else have people in the room used, or what else can people identify as something that may be worth a crack?
It may be a lost cause because this this these words, which are essentially what you see in tech a lot, they’re just overly complex words for something that would be much better explained with very simple language.
And that’s what I do in the guides, and then my client will go back in there and be like, literally yesterday when I saw Joe’s post, my client had just that day yesterday replaced something that I had written with that buzzword. So it was kinda funny.
But, yeah. And, anyway, that’s baked into their key narrative for right now for this time. So but, yeah, I still wanna hear ideas. Yeah. Please, Andrew.
Yeah. So I I have some thoughts on this. I have a customer who’s kind of like this as well. And so, you know, I think that and and by the way, do you know Josh Garofalo? Do you know who he is?
He on LinkedIn, he, shared Joanna’s post and then added some some interesting information on on top of that. That might be worth kind of reading that’s, like, kind of about, like, how it gets that way. And I do think that there’s a little bit of, like, with larger companies, with larger tech companies, it is a little bit of a losing battle, not in every situation, but, like, you know, Joanna showed the screenshot of the homepage hero.
And when a company get the tech company gets to a certain size, that homepage hero section is, in my experience, going to be impossible because you have, like, ten stakeholders who are these, like, highly paid people who are thinking about, you know, what do we do and how do we they take all of this information and they bring it together, and then they come up with this, like, very abstract sounding term that’s, like, maybe an accurate way to reflect what they do. But, of course, nobody knows what a, you know, revenue orchestration platform is. And so what what I’ve found is that there are certain places where you can fight the the battle and it’s worth it, and there are certain places where you can’t. And so the homepage hero, like, when I work I worked on a homepage with a company that kind of acts like this too where it’s a lot of buzzwords and stuff. And I what what I did is for that home page, because I knew it was gonna be like that, it was gonna be stakeholder hell.
First of all, I set up the the project in such a way where it was like, we’re gonna do a couple rounds of revisions, and then I’m handing it back to you, and your team does what your team does with it be just because I know I’ve been in that situation a million times before. But I find that they are a lot more and I still let them know. I still tell them that. But they’re a lot more receptive to that in other places.
And so I think that, like, in your you know, if you’re doing long form content, that might be a place where you have, like, a bit more ability to kinda push back and to say things like, okay. Like, as as Chrissy said, like and I’ve used almost that exact technique before of being like, you know, okay. And is that a term that, like, people who your cuss your prospects who are encountering this for the first time, is that something that they’re, like, they’re familiar with, or or or is that gonna be a new term for them? Right?
I know the answer. I know that’s a new term. They have no idea. And and I find that that often does like, there usually are people who will go to bat for that as well.
But, again, it’s like, I find it’s all about picking where you’re gonna fight that battle because on the whole like, the again, the homepage hero section, like, I don’t have any good advice for that.
I’ve never been at those larger organizations.
It’s just it’s just impossible. But, yeah, I don’t know if that was helpful at all, but, like, that this is such a such a common thing, and it’s because you have eight eight highly paid people who don’t know the first thing about writing copy who are writing the copy, essentially. So I don’t know if that’s helpful at all, but at least at least, I know that game. I know that game. Let’s just say that.
Yeah. Thanks for sharing. I guess I part part of what I was curious about is, would you ever would any would you ever share Joe’s post, like, with the client? I don’t think I should because it’s might be sort of a shoot the messenger type thing.
Yeah. And it’s like, who would get because you could get blamed, but also if someone gets the credit, it’s not you either. But that’s my like, it’s like either Johanna gets the claim gets the credit or you get the blame. I don’t know. That’s just my take, but I’ll pass it back to everyone else.
Actually seeing the post yet, Kim, but, my take in the difference of client you have a relationship with, you could feel a bit passive aggressive to sort of try and prove your point via someone else.
Totally. Yeah.
Yeah. So I think that that would be probably where I would land.
But so frustrating for you that, like, literally the same day this is happening, Joe puts up with me.
Funny.
I have a really good relationship with the client, actually. But yeah. So, anyway, I just wanted to bring it up and see what everyone had to say.
I guess, well, maybe a better question for you is how like, are you comfortable with the ways you’ve tried to communicate the fact that jargon is not best approach for the client? Like, is there more that you could do there, or do you feel like, look.
I’ve got one more I can do.
I I don’t think I, actually, I think the first few guides no. There’s there’s definitely more I can do. But at the same time, I don’t know I don’t think there’s gonna be a lot of give there because they’ve got things pretty set. And I know how they work, and and I know how I mean, I’ve worked at enterprise tech companies, and I’ve worked at, you know, enough of these places where I I know, Andrew, how it works.
Like, it’s once that messaging set until it changes again, it’s not gonna change. So yeah. But I still thought I’d see if anyone had any genius advice where I could you know? Someone might have some great ideas that would let me somehow bring it up and make some change.
So I just wanted to bring it up.
Yeah. I mean, I think the only reason I asked that last question is because, you know, like, sometimes in whatever copy you’re writing, you know, you can feel and know something so strongly, but no matter what you say, the client is still gonna change that thing at the end of the day. So I think for me, what’s important is have I articulated my reasoning to the point where I’m really confident that I’ve done all I can to get the most effective solution for this client? If I have, then I’ve done my part. Whereas if I feel like for whatever reason, if I’ve been nervous about stating my expertise or if I’ve been a bit worried about how the client might take it and I’ve reserved that part of me, then I feel like I haven’t done my job.
So I think it’s sort of about knowing where your control and your say ends and just making sure you’re doing a really good job of that part of the of the relationship, if that helps.
Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Thanks.
I have one more thing I can add if if you wanna hear it. Yeah. Absolutely.
I I always try to instead of making it my opinion versus their opinion thing, I I have this thing that I that I try to say early on with any client, which is, you know, my opinion doesn’t matter and your opinion doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is what the audience thinks.
And that way, it doesn’t it takes it out of being a power struggle between, you know, I’m the expert, you know, at copywriting, and I know better. And it it sort of just diffuses it. And then you can state your case as let’s test and see what results we get and then make an informed decision because all I really care about is your success.
So that’s just a different way of of reframing it.
That’s great.
That’s epic. Thanks, Stacy. Such good framing. Setting of expectations early on is often really key.
I have a few bits to add to it.
So sorry. I just suddenly lost my train of thought.
Okay. So for the whole jargon thing, I also read a post recently, which was, Mark just bashing, you know, all the words, right, that that usually come up, like supercharge and, unlock and level up kinda thing. And I actually made, like, a cute little GPT tool that does, like, a clarity, specificity, and, like, buzzword sweep on copy.
But that’s not my point. My point is that salespeople actually do kind of lean towards the jargon more than marketers. So I think as marketers, we might hate it more and as writers hate it even more, but perhaps salespeople don’t hate it quite as much or have even come to expect it because it’s so common among enterprises.
That was the one thing that I was, I was thinking as as I was going. And, then just wanted to plus one that technique of saying, look, it doesn’t matter whose opinion. Like, your opinion doesn’t matter. My opinion doesn’t matter. It’s definitely the audience’s opinion. That’s worked so well for me in the past.
And then also just saying when I deliver work, you know, let’s focus on tone, let’s focus on accuracy.
We’ve done all the research, all the hard work’s done.
We’re really just doing, like, a check to make sure that everything is on brand and accurate.
And that gets me some nice, easy, like, straightforward feedback.
So yeah.
Okay. I have a a follow-up question from that, which is socials. So I’ve recent someone told me, that I don’t seem like a corporate person, which is fair because I don’t think I do. And they were like, get off LinkedIn, get onto Twitter.
So I started posting on Twitter, and I’ve realized that I really really struggled to write social posts.
Like, if I have a template to follow, great. But Twitter is so short form, and it’s such like a consistent blast of information.
I just don’t know how to say stuff. Like, the whole adding value thing. I mean, I can regurgitate my knowledge, but it doesn’t feel like I’m adding value.
So I just wanted to ask psychologically, I suppose, what are your opinions on how to best allow yourself to be authentic on social media without saying, I went for a walk this morning and I saw a bunch of dogs and it was really nice. And, you know, like, what’s the balance?
Yeah.
So I mean, one thing that I think is good about platform like Twitter or is it still called x? I’m not on there, but I feel like it’s still called is it still called x these days? Who knows? Everyone says Twitch.
I know. I know. Elon Musk is so cranky that his rebrand never took off.
But and I think one of the good things about it from a mindset perspective is that it moves so fast. So something you put on there today, you know, unless it goes viral or gets a lot of traction, it’s probably not gonna really be seen again by tomorrow. Right?
Which if you think about it from an approach of what if I just use this as a testing ground and I just like top of mind thoughts, anything that I’m like, okay, that’s kind of interesting. Well, that’s kind of relevant. Pop it on there and see what resonates.
I think social media like that can be a really great place to test, to see what gets traction. And then you can dive deeper into those pieces that are really hitting the right note or resonating and even take them from that platform into other places to create bigger bits of content.
So I feel like just loosen the expectations a little bit on the fact that whatever you put on there has to be like incredibly thought through and incredibly polished.
Lean into the fact that it is quite a fast paced or fast moving space.
Because yeah, there’s some freedom, I think, in the fact that knowing that, you know, if you write something and it’s not great, you know, probably no one’s really gonna see it and that’s okay.
So that’s maybe a backwards tip for how I would approach things, but what what’s right for other people? Does anyone else sort of feel a bit hamstrung when it comes to what to share on on a platform like Twitter or X?
I find with those kind of platforms, like you were saying, it’s really helpful for me to remember that, like, it’s gonna pass so fast, so don’t put a lot of, like, stake into it.
And for me, I I have, like, the best results when I’m just when I’m not posting about business stuff, which makes me then comfortable to post about business stuff.
So if I’m like if I take the pressure off and I just, like, post about something random and then I start to see, oh, people are, like, engaging and people are responding, I’m like, oh, this is actually fun. Cool. And then the next time I go on, I’m more likely to actually post about something business related.
And so that’s something that’s kind of, like, helped me get more into the flow, but also, not always having to be the one who’s, like, making the main post, but engaging under other people’s stuff and responding and liking and and doing that kind of stuff and not always feeling like, okay. I have to post something about business, and I have to be the one who’s posting it, especially on days where I’m like, I feel like my brain’s not even here today. That’s the kinda way I approach it. Okay.
That makes total sense.
I think I need to follow some better people because, like, when I’m scrolling, I’m just really struggling. I’m like, yeah.
Like, build in public.
Just yeah.
I think I’m getting a lot of big messages.
It’s tiring.
Yeah. Claire, one thing to remember on social media, you kinda wanna use the eighty twenty rule. Eighty percent personal, twenty percent business or, like, ninety ten.
Most people wanna see about you. That’s what social media is, especially on Facebook and Instagram.
But one really important point that just came up is share and comment on other people’s posts, especially ones that relate to your business, to what you’re doing.
Got it.
Okay. So wait. Hold on. Does that mean that I should be posting the selfie I took of my walk this morning?
Like, is that I I stay off of x.
When it switched from Twitter, it’s like, I’m done. I have a thing with Elon Musk too.
Who doesn’t? Yeah.
But so I think x is a little different, especially since Musk got on, took it over. It’s a lot of you can see a lot of conspiracy theory stuff on there, a lot of weird stuff.
But if you find like minded business, somebody to follow, then like, post, and share or like, comment, and share on their posts. And then maybe, you know, get an idea for a post that you can put out there. It doesn’t have to be, you know, the dog walking. That’s usually face Instagram.
X is kinda geared more towards business.
Actually, I think it’s a little weirder than that, but it’s my personal opinion.
But, yeah, I think if you’re doing business posts, keep it to LinkedIn.
Okay. Cool.
That’s I’m on LinkedIn.
Just my opinion.
Pardon? Sorry.
On LinkedIn, same strategy, like, eighty percent personal stuff?
Link LinkedIn is strictly business, so I would make that all about your business.
Okay.
Yeah. That’s that’s what that platform is for. X Twitter x, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, you know, all those other social posts or social media platforms.
You know, that’s that eighty twenty rule. Make it about yourself.
Nobody likes to see post of dinners anymore, but something interesting.
A nice peaceful walk in the woods, show some trees swaying or something. I don’t know. But, yeah, eighty twenty. Throw your business in there, but most people just wanna see about your life and what you’re doing.
K. Yeah. Cool.
Thank you so much.
Mhmm.
Just for Claire, does anyone know of anyone on x or Twitter that is, like, doing a really good job of, like, nailing that balance? Jess, I mean, it sounds like you might be do you guys follow each other? I I just wonder if it could be helpful for you, Claire, to sort of have an example of, you know, what it can look like on there that might free you up a little bit, and get you in the rhythm of that platform a little bit more.
I’m actually not on Twitter, but I’m on threads, which I love.
Yes.
I know who used to do a lot of Twitter.
She’s probably still there. Rachel Pilcher? Pilcher?
Yes. She did used to be quite active on there.
Or she she was in the intensive freelancer.
You know, there are there are business, accounts and professionals who do mostly business stuff on x and on Instagram, but it’s just that that’s the way that they’ve positioned their accounts from the beginning. You know, it’s not their personal account. It’s it’s an account for business. I I know several colleagues who have business focused Instagram and x accounts, and that is just you know, it’s part of their strategy. So it just depends on how you choose to use it. I personally would never use x because the shelf life of a tweet is fifteen minutes, and that’s just, you know, not my thing. And and I don’t like the platform since, since Elon took it over either.
Yes. Show of hands. How many don’t like Elon Musk? Alright. Majority.
That’s funny because he’s actually South African, and I’m South African. So Oh, it’s we produced him. Sorry.
So good.
But, yeah, I mean, Stacy’s right. I mean, you can do business. If you’ve got a business account, definitely, that’s how you where you post your business at.
Yeah. I have something to say. So I use Facebook sometimes, and I’ve had it for a long time. But what I find works for me a lot is, like, if I see a post that I have a different opinion about, then I can use that, like, a spin off of that and, give my opinion about that.
And I think that works really well because it if you notice that the post the original post is doing well, and then you’re like, okay. Well, that’s doing good. Maybe I could do the opposing side of that. That might do good as well, and that, I find, is pretty good.
So that’s always an option too.
That’s good too. It’s often easier when you’re not trying to generate the original thought. If you have something to spring off or a conversation to join, it can just really help raise the wheels.
And I think as well consider how social media really helps build a three-dimensional version of your business and your presence because I suspect that the platforms add a different element to your online profile, if that makes sense.
So you’re not necessarily showing up exactly the same way in your emails. I mean, LinkedIn as you are on Instagram. There’s something there that can help build a really nice rounded picture of you, who you are, what you do.
Probably a lot of stuff to sit with, Claire. So but so many good points here. So thank you everyone for sharing your wisdom and your insights.
We’re at the top of the hour. I’ve gotta go get my kids off to daycare, so I better get going. But lovely to see you all. If you have any questions, or anything you wanna chat about, please ping me in Slack. I’m always around.
Otherwise, I will see you all next week.
Bye.
The Hot Seat w/Ry (29/08)
Hot Seat with Ry Schwartz
Transcript
Alright. Well, yeah, I think we could just jump straight into it.
We’re gonna kick it off with Andrew.
So, yeah, if it’s the first time, I don’t think it’s anyone’s first time. But, yeah, we’ll do five minutes of, yeah, sharing about your situation, the thing you’d like some feedback on, five minutes of clarifying questions from the group, and that’s where I’m gonna be, like, super anti Canadian and hold us to those five minutes because that’s the part that can sometimes go off track. I think we all grew up watching a lot of CSI, right, and interrogation shows where, like, I don’t know. It’s just so much fun when we get to go in interrogation mode.
But what about this? Have you considered that? Where were you the night of the twelfth? Yeah.
So, yeah, I’ll hold us to that five minutes. Then we’ll have a fifteen minute discussion while the hot cedar, goes off camera, and then you’ll come back with a takeaway item. Cool?
Awesome. Beautiful. Well, Andrew, you are up, my friend.
Cool. Cool.
So my challenge is that I am just having the hardest time creating something that is, a process that is repeatable to the degree that I feel like I could actually hand it off to someone else.
I just find that there’s even even within my kind of narrow, my sort of even with really specializing and, there still ends up being, like, a lot of kind of what seems like necessary customization, a lot of kind of complexity, variance between clients even though they kind of, you know, from afar look to be similar enough.
And just for context, the sort of what I’m experimenting with right now is basically a micro agency for b to b SaaS companies that is focused on landing page optimization.
Ideally, those will be paid search landing pages, but there is a lot of, people tend to care more about their, like, organic website. And so in the in the versions that I’ve done of this so far of this process, I’ve I’ve done both, I’ve done both paid search landing pages that stand alone on the website, which reduces a lot of complexity on my end. But I’ve also done, work on the organic website, which tends to add some complexity.
And, yeah, I just find that, like, a lot of clients have different starting points for research, and they often have a lot of existing documentation that, like, product marketing teams have put together, and it always takes a different format. Sometimes it’s, like, super helpful. Sometimes it’s not at all helpful.
Sometimes there’s a lot of noise to sort through. It’s just like, what even is this?
And, also, the products tend to be very technical. So there’s, like, have to get up to speed on learning about their product whether it’s, like, data management or, you know, IT, whatever stuff.
And so, yeah, there’s just a whole lot of complexity, a lot of what feels like necessary customization, And I just I’m having a hard time imagining myself being able to package up this one process, train someone on it, and hand it off to them. I’m just having a hard time with that. And I’d love to get to a place where there’s either a lot more standardization.
Well, yeah, I’d like to get to a point where there’s more standardization.
Cool. Thanks, Andrew. Floor is open for some questions.
Can I ask Andrew, like, when you talk about systematizing the process and being able to hand it off to somebody else, what is your current expectation for the timeline of being able to do that?
You mean, like, how soon I’d be able to, Yeah.
Like, how many times would you just how many times do you intend to deliver it before handing it off, just to know, like, where your expectations are on from where you are now to being able to do that?
Yeah. I guess they don’t have any hard expectations. I have, like, one client right now where it’s like this is kind of the the test of the model, and I even told that to him of, like, you know, I’m trying out this new thing, and and here it is.
And so I don’t necessarily have a timeline on it, but I’m just trying to go as fast as I can, and I guess with it. So, you know, I think it would be great if by the start of the year, I could feel like I’m able to really start handing stuff off to the point where I’m I’m not necessarily doing the delivery work, maybe overseeing it. So that would be great, but I don’t really have something specific in mind. I’m not gonna be able to fully take myself out of all client work because of some existing contracts, until maybe at the earliest, the beginning of next year.
So that’s kind of the current timeline, I guess, for lack of timeline.
Oh, Marina.
So what processes do you have in place right now? Like, do you have SOPs that you are currently following, and are they recorded with you talking out your thinking?
Yeah. So what I have right now is, like, one thing I have is, like, a is a very high level SOP that has things where it’s like, so the the sort of research phase has high level things like I’m just reading it here. It’s like review existing documents and data, run client interviews, run surveys, like, that that kind of level.
And then I have a a business manager who’s helping me, like, move some of that some of those things, like, into Asana to help track, like, who’s doing what when. But I don’t have I don’t yet have the detailed level of here’s how we do this thing. And I think part of the problem with that is that I’m not always doing it the same way every time, and I’m dealing with a lot of maybe, like, perfectionism around how that’s done. And so I’m not settling into, like, okay.
This these are the documents that we fill out during the research phase. Like, I’m building those, but I’m always having this feeling of, like, oh, but that doesn’t include this. And then, no, I should do that instead. And so so I’m I’m getting there.
But in terms of, like, actual SOPs, those are not nearly where they need to be for me to hand things off yet. And some of that comes back to my own indecision around what that should work on.
Okay. So to follow-up with that, what do you most want to hand off?
Like, if you can’t hand off the whole project, what would be the first thing that you would say I just want? It could be the easiest thing to hand off or the thing you hate the most. Maybe, like, what are both of those? Easiest and the one you hate?
Yeah. I think that the probably the biggest thing right now would be either, like, research in general or at the very least, like, packaging up the research.
So because I just find that that’s where I really lose a lot of time. It’s just, like, sorting through all of this stuff, making sense of it, trying to organize it. Like, I’m just not good at that kind of thing. I’m not very good at the research process. I’m good at, like, thinking about, like, asking questions. Like, what do we need to know? But I’m not good at organizing research.
I don’t know if I’m I don’t enjoy analyzing it.
So those are that would be kind of, like, the first thing I’d like to hand off.
But I also have found I was able to subcontract someone for a simpler project, and this is someone who has honestly, like, probably the same skill close to the same skill level that I have. And And it was nice because I was just able to, like, just do your thing, and and that works. But I think what I’ve learned from that is that having the person who does the research also be the person who’s writing the copy is probably a worthwhile way to do things. There’s just I think there’s a, I don’t know, efficiency there.
So I think in an ideal world, I’d be able to have someone who’s doing the research and the copy, and then I would sort of maybe be helping more with the big picture strategy and working with the client because, you know, AB testing, for example, is a big part of this. There’s a lot to discuss about what are we gonna test, what are we not gonna test, what is the test gonna run, you know, all of that stuff. And I think I’m better equipped to handle that than someone I would hand things off to.
But yeah. So to answer your question, I guess it’s it’s mostly researching and copy.
And if I had to get more specific, it would be organizing and analyzing research.
K. So do you have a set of research questions now that you use?
I do have existing questions. I think that the yes. I do have questions. Yeah.
Okay. I think I’m totally hogging all the time.
Can I just ask Andrew, like, what are you from our conversation, are you looking for tips on how to system ties the process? Like, what’s the number one outcome that you’re hoping to get from this?
I think I’m trying to figure out, like, where I’m getting in my own way and where I’m overcomplicating things, which I have a tendency to do. And I guess, like, in an ideal world, someone would be able to suggest something that’s kind of, like, the one thing that makes everything else easier or, like, you know, obviously, I’m not expecting a a bad magic bullet or something like that. But, yeah, I get I guess the the biggest thing would be where am I overcomplicated things? Recognize simplify.
Take this.
Oh, everyone good?
Ready to move into a little discussion?
Sweet. Alright. Andrew, off camera and try not to sit on the pigeon shit. Or if you do, write a sales letter or buy hackers. You wanna put that in their copy.
Sweet.
Off camera.
There we go.
Sweet. Who’s got some thoughts? And hello to everyone who’s joined in. I see Jessica’s here. James is here.
Welcome, y’all. Alright. Let’s have a little chat.
I mean, one really low hanging fruit thing that I think Andrew could start by doing is using AI for research analysis and presentation. That’s been I’m not a huge AI adopter at this point, but that has been one of the main ways that I’ve been using it is, like, taking all my survey results and putting them in there and getting them organized by theme. And then if I’m looking for a specific quote, I don’t have to, like, go digging through the survey data. I get Chachapita, like, spit it out back to me. So for his own short term research process, that could be a good place to start. And then also for, creating an SOP, like, training somebody how to opt or, organize the research, that could be something that helps somebody who’s not that great at research get a leg up, easily.
Yeah. I agree. I think, there might even be an opportunity there. Right? Like, to hire an AI consultant who can develop that system. Right? If if it’s not something he’s super clear on, right, that one hire could probably yield him efficiencies and savings down the line, right, through his own work as well as the subcontracting.
So I love that idea.
I’m just wondering if he has a list of questions, and then if he can, backward engineer the research that he’s done so far to create sort of a general ideal, this is what a research package would look like.
And then if he hired somebody that actually enjoyed doing research and then said, this is like, here’s painted done. This is what done should look like. Here’s a list of the questions, and then trust the person because they like research. If they have the questions, that they’ll then find the answers to then fill in the format that he wants. And that might, I think maybe he’s projecting because and I say this because I do this too. But just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean somebody else does.
So maybe he’s projecting a little bit of that thinking, like, why would somebody wanna do this when it might be, like, their total thing that they Right.
Geeked out on and love.
Yeah. I empathize with, like, research and synthesis and intake being one of the harder parts to boil down into kind of, like, a step by step process.
I’ve worked with a range of clients, and some of them do want to dump everything they’ve compiled for ten years in order for them to feel like their case has been fully taken into account.
And it brings to mind, like, a practice like, a Chinese medicine practitioner I worked with, like, not too long ago. Right? And, like, I wanted to come onto that call with, like, a whole list of everything I’ve tried to do over the last, like, ten years to fix this thing. Right?
And he’s like, shut up. I just need your pulse. Right? Like and there might be an element of, like, shut up.
I just need your pulse here, right, of, like, a level of confidence to say, this is all I need as, you know, an input to get this output and just some, you know, radical boundary setting in that base. So I don’t know if that’s a possibility for Andrew, but the shut up, I just need your pulse approach might be worth considering.
Well and then if he has a framework that research ends up in, that might be easier to keep the boundary because then it’s just like, oh, I don’t need that stuff because it doesn’t fit in this, and I know I only need this in order to get to the outcome.
Mhmm.
This is hard.
Yeah. I I’m also writing the, radical boundary setting on my list, but I’d be curious what you guys think of the idea of having if Andrew brought somebody onto his team now and gave them the objective and got them to document how they got there, and then that becomes the SOP so that he doesn’t have to hire somebody and train them on his SOP, but rather he’s also outsourcing the process creation to that subcontractor who then is more invested in that process because they developed it. I mean, like, as long as he’s satisfied with the outcome and product of that process, does it really have to be him who develops it?
Especially if he doesn’t like it. So somebody is gonna be more innovative, right, if they like research if they if he has a clear outcome.
Right.
That’s a good idea.
I like that. There may also be an element where that person in charge of research and intake can be setting that boundary with clients if Andrew would prefer not to. Right? Like, you know, you’re gonna have this chat or you’re gonna be in contact with, you know, our researcher. Right?
And they’re the ones who get to set that boundary as well, so it’s a little removed as well. Could be a good idea.
Also, it goes back to what Joe said, I think, on Monday’s call about, like, the less they see you, the more they want you kind of thing. So if it’s if they’re they have more the researcher and less time with Andrew.
Mhmm. Yeah. That’s interesting.
Alright. So, yeah, I think we have some, like, good ideas there. We had to recap, we had, getting potentially an AI consultant to streamline that process. Right?
And I think that that becomes most appropriate when Andrew’s identified, like, very clearly. Like, these are the friction points. Right? These are the points that are taking way too much bandwidth, way too much complexity, way too much complexity, way too much variance.
Right? How do we actually simplify this and automate this? I think that could be a really awesome, you know, contractor to hire.
And then I love the idea. Right? Like, I think it totally is within the realm of possibility of hiring someone that loves research, right, loves synthesis, loves, you know, that whole intake process, has already likely developed some really epic systems around it and can help implement that and also create a layer removed for Andrew, right, in client facing time on that topic and set the boundaries where needed.
A lot of the standardization, right, first requires boundary setting with the client. Right? It’s not letting them dictate your process, but then following your process as the expert.
And that’s uncomfortable. I mean, it was uncomfortable for me. Right? I’ll speak for myself. Like, as a shy Canadian being like, no.
No. No. We’re gonna do things this way. Right? Like, I don’t like saying that shit.
But, like, you have to at some point, especially if you have clear evidence that all that extra stuff is extending timelines and not serving the result. Right? That’s where you’re in fierce advocacy of the success of a project and ultimately your client. So, yeah, I like it.
Cool. Any other, thoughts, or shall we welcome Andrew back?
He was also saying about the copywriter and researcher being the same person, But I’m wondering if then the researcher bandwidth would soon run out as he gets more clients.
But I’m wondering about pairing, the researcher with, the copywriter.
So maybe I don’t know.
Maybe he has two I don’t I’m trying to think because I know getting research from somebody else, then you end up sifting through it all yourself anyway, and then it’s not actually a time save.
Right.
But if somebody compiles if somebody gets all the research in one spot, so you’re not, like, having to go hunting for it Mhmm. That might help the copywriter and still speed up the copywriting, but they’re still involved with the research, but not as in-depth.
And then the copywriter could also call on that researcher and go like, just work in collaboration with the researcher being like, hey. I need this data point.
Do you like, is it somewhere?
Right?
Right.
And so more more of that collaborative copywriter researcher kind of thing.
Yeah. That makes sense. I also wonder like, it brings back the AI conversation. Right? Like, what can you input from, like, all the documentation of a client, right, and ask AI.
Right? Like, I need more information on this. Can you articulate it in a grade three language that a non techie person could understand? Right?
Like, that’s totally available right now.
Yes. So Shane, uses this thing called a. I got it off of AppSumo too. I haven’t used it extensively yet.
I know Shane does. And you can, like, upload a bunch of stuff into it and do that. Mhmm. Okay.
I haven’t done it myself yet, so I can’t speak to it. But Shane does it, and he’s brilliant and has done all sorts of business stuff.
Yeah.
So I wonder if that might be yeah. That’s what it is, Jessica.
If that might be part of a solution.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Because what I was hearing, and I think y’all picked up on it too. Right? Like, a big part of the bandwidth suck, but sometimes, like, getting up to speed on product information, right, especially the more technical side of things.
And sometimes, as you said, right, like, a copywriter could be bottlenecked, like, unexpectedly in having a gap in that information and then even a gap of understanding that information and trying to translate it into English. Right? So, yeah, that could be a part of the SOP. Right?
It’s like, in that intake, you create that knowledge base. Right? You load those documents into the AI. Right?
And then the SOP is when you get bottlenecked on something product related or tech related.
Here’s the prompt. Right? And yeah.
I think, like, in all of this, there gets to be the expectation that efficiency goes up over time, smoothness of SOPs go go up over time. Right? Like and this is the perfectionist aspect. Like, I want the perfect SOPs from day one, and the way they get perfect is from seeing the friction points, realizing where there’s gaps, right, and solving for them. So it’s a constant iteration of, like, incompleteness, completing it, seeing where there’s still gaps, and refining it. So I think there’s gotta be some degree of a willingness and a threshold for it not being ideal and perfect.
And at the same time, I love that Andrew. It’s like foreseeing where there’s, like, very clear gaps right off the bat and not wanting to put himself in, you know, tough positions.
Cool.
Cool. Alright. Andrew, welcome back.
Awesome. Yeah.
That was all really helpful.
Especially, I think, the piece around, like, getting better at setting boundaries with the client around, like, what do I need versus what’s just gonna be noise for me.
And I think it probably does start with having my own frameworks a little bit more. Like, I just sort of like, oh, this is our process, and these are the things that I sort of need to fill out. Is that what I need to know? Who is the client? I want you to help me kind of focus on the information that I need to know and not just giving me, like, all of your documents, which is kind of my own I think that’s my own doing is that I ask for all this stuff right now, and I think I need to stop doing that. And I need to start thinking in terms of here are the questions that I have.
I need you to help me help my researcher answer these questions Right.
And not think not just letting myself. Because right now, with with all this stuff there, then I’m just going down these rabbit holes. And I’m like, oh, like, they have this messaging framework thing. And, like, do I need to follow that, or do I not need to follow that? And so, yeah, I think a lot of this comes back to having that process in place and then deciding if am I gonna be the one who’s gonna figure out that that exact process, or am I gonna hire someone to help me figure out that process? I’m gonna hire someone to help me figure out how how AI can fit into this.
So, yeah, I I think that a lot of it just comes back to the I end up expanding the scope on my own, the work. I’m just gonna, Oh, but I haven’t thought of that. It is perfectionist. I haven’t thought, oh, what if I go in this direction? What else? I need to find ways to think more in terms of constraints.
And Yep.
All of that. But I I took a ton of notes here.
That that was all super helpful. Everyone had really good feedback.
Radical boundary setting is gonna be my biggest takeaway from this. But yeah. And then for AI, I do use that.
Marina, I do use that a little bit. It does help with it. But, again, I it comes back to too much information. Mhmm. That just need the pulse as as you said. Right?
So It be I think it begins with being, like, ruthless in that direction.
Right? Because you can always get more information at some point in your process. Right? And, like Yeah.
And I’m gonna try to use a good New York New York metaphor. Like, let’s say you have, like, a pizzeria. Right? And, like, a New York New York pizzas are awesome.
Right? So it’s like, you only really need a few ingredients to make an epic pizza. Right? And let’s say you’re sourcing those ingredients.
You don’t need, like, anchovies. You definitely don’t need pineapple. Like, you definitely definitely don’t need pineapple, or bacon or sardines or all that. Right?
You don’t need a messy pizza. Right? Like, get the core of what you need to just deliver an epic output. And if you wanna get spicy later, right, you can invite those extra pieces.
But, yeah, I think whether it’s you setting those boundaries, like and even your own self boundaries of not getting curious in these directions, which I’m totally guilty of. Right?
Yes.
Yeah.
And then later, I’m like, why did I ask a client for that? I don’t even wanna look at this thing that they’re sending. Right?
So, yeah, I think it’s For sure. So Yeah. Thank you all.
Very, very helpful. Great stuff. Thank you all.
Awesome. Thank you, Andrew. Not getting curious. That’s a real thing. Oh, totally. Yeah. Awesome. Katie, you’re up.
Yeah. I agree on the not getting curious thing because I think I usually end up, like, adding on a secret extra project that I’m, like, pursuing through my own curiosity.
Okay. But speaking of focus, I made a Google Doc of what I wanted to talk about so I wouldn’t get distracted.
Do you mind if I share my screen?
Yeah. Please do. Go for it. You should have access. I find it. Okay.
Okay.
So I feel mentally prepared, mindset fully prepared for my first client for this new offer.
I want to book them, like, in the next ten days. I’m I’m, like, opening up to receive this client coming to me. I have the offer.
I know what it is.
I I have a rough delivery SOP, like, what phase one, phase two, phase three would look like. I have every URL I could possibly need for the offer and the agency.
I have my lead magnet, which is my ROI calculator, which includes, per our last conversation on this ride, like, a Loom walk through and the spreadsheet itself.
I’ve done my workshop, per the intensive freelancer instructions.
I’m doing Instagram content, poke pointing people to it. I’ve been emailing my own list about it.
Yesterday, I wrote a shitty first draft of my sales page.
Yeah. And then, like, once you sign up for the webinar or for the workshop, there’s three emails to get you to watch it.
The the the caution sign means it’s half done. So once you once you indicate that you’ve watched the webinar by clicking the link or anything else, there’s, I think, one email so far inviting you to book a call, but I plan to build that out.
I have in my calendar, like, space blocked to actually really think through, like, what it’s gonna look like to do this. But because it’s, like, a totally new offer and I’ve never done it before, I’m kind of just accepting that the first time I’m gonna be documenting what I do versus, like, trying to document that process before I’ve done it.
I created like, it’s like a landing page that, like, the hero section points people to my workshop, and the next section invites people to book a call on the agency URL.
And then I’m, you know, I’m working on, like, blog posts around this. I have an outline for the book. I don’t have any team. So my question is oh, yeah.
And this is what I’m doing. So I’m cold pitching. I’m booking coffee chats. I’m writing blog posts.
But I just am having trouble basically, I spend I’m doing, like, ten things to ten percent every day instead of one thing to a hundred percent because I’m having trouble prioritizing which thing to complete next.
The thing I mean, okay. Cool. This is my first time ever cold pitching. I’ve done I made myself this goal of, like, of each of the four weeks in a month. Like, week one, I’ll pitch five people. Week two, I’ll pitch five podcasts. Week three, I’ll pitch five programs to come in as a guest expert.
Week four, I’ll pitch, like, product, like, you know, like, Zapier or ConvertKit or something, you know, that my clients would use.
So far, I’ve done three this week, with the goal to do two more today, but that’s definitely, like, now that I ripped the Band Aid off, I can see that coming faster.
Yeah. I don’t know. Where like, what is my shortest path to somebody paying me money?
And, also, like, ideally, in a smart way that will help me make this thing sustainably successful.
Mhmm.
Love it. That’s a very clear question.
So just to be clear, like, if you got that client this afternoon, like, you would feel confident confident enough to get to work on it. Right? Like, you’re done with the preparation phase for it. Like, you’re ready for that client. Correct?
Well, great question. But, actually, no. I’m like, well, my assistant is still I think I need to let my assistant go because she’s been working on my client portal for, like, five weeks now.
So that’s gonna be a notion, but it’s a work in progress.
Also, I’m really reluctant to let her go because she’s the first person that’s ever anyway, it’s just like, I’m reluctant to let her go because I wanna be in a ramping up period, not a starting from scratch period. But Mhmm. I do think that long term, I need somebody who’s more, action oriented.
Sure. Yep.
And then I don’t I also haven’t completed the templatized proposal, but I also thought that that would kind of like, I’ve done eighty percent of it, and I figured that would also come once I had actually had a client to do it for.
Mhmm. Cool. Alright. Any other questions?
I I have a quick one if that’s okay. Please.
When you look at this list and if you could wave a magic wand and pick the one that you feel would if you solve this one, it would propel the other ones being solved faster, which one do your eyes land on?
I think if I if I could only do one thing Mhmm. Would pitch people with the ROI calculator, which I kind of forgot about. But, like, I knew I had I had thought about that strategy before. So far, I’ve just been emailing people, but I had previously talked about, like, emailing people a loom of the ROI calculator with their numbers plugged in, and I haven’t tried that yet.
So that’s one thing where I think it gets like, it has more more curiosity and intrigue than just a text based email.
Okay. Sorry. So sorry, Katie. Can you just say one more time what’s, like, the big question you want answered from our feedback?
What what how do I prioritize my tasks? Or, like, what is my shortest path to a paying client?
Shortest path to a paying client. And so you’re saying that you believe right now the ROI calculator putting more time into that would lead to that outcome?
Not it’s ready to go. But if I were right, so right now, I’ve just been sending, like, short email pitches.
Mhmm.
And I think that including the loom of what the ROI calculator like, with the ROI calculator results would make that a more compelling pitch. Okay.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you.
I’m happy to put this in the if I could find you guys again.
Marina, did you wanna I do have a question.
So, what have you done to get clients in the past? I know this is a totally new offer, but what is something that there’s a direct line between, like, oh, I did this thing. I got this client.
Yeah.
I have primarily like, I would say probably eighty percent of my clients come from guest experting in other people’s programs and then being, like well, I was in a I was in a group coaching program where I was that coach’s copywriter, and then pretty pretty much everybody else in the program worked with me. And through her talking in her content about me being her copywriter, I got a lot of clients that way. So that’s why, like, pitching programs is on here in the sense of, yeah, that that has been successful me in the for me in the past. But I do think that that is hard to recreate without that existing relationship with the coach because I haven’t I feel like if I pitch this to a coach and say, let me teach your audience about this, she’s gonna be like, well, talk to me about who else you’ve done this for successfully before she wants to put me in front of her paying mastermind members. So that’s where I feel that strategy might not work as well at this point.
Okay. But it sounds like it’s relational.
Yes. Yes. So okay. So relational. And so what has been the usual sales cycle? Like, how long?
So when you say you wanna get an a client in the next ten days, based on your previous sales cycle with relationship marketing, Is that possible, or are you, like Well, I feel like, the biggest, like, the reason that I think my past sales process is kind of moot here is that it’s a completely different audience.
Like, I don’t I think maybe one percent of my email subscribers fit my ICP.
Maybe three percent of my inst my, like, small Instagram following, but, I really think, like, whereas I always got new clients by going back back to my past clients or getting referrals from my past clients. I think that this has been such a pivot in terms of who I’m talking to that I need to be, like, hence the cool hence the new cold pitching and kind of creating more of a funnel to pull to pull people in.
So that one percent, have you reached out to that one percent that you think might be of your current Well, like, okay.
I sent when I was, like, seeding this offer to my email list Mhmm. Of seven hundred and fifty people, I sent them out, like, click here if you’re interested, and I got twenty five clicks.
Oh, wow.
Like but when I went through that list, I don’t know I don’t know what tech gremlins make this happen, but, like, half of those people were people who hadn’t opened any of my emails ever.
Oh, okay.
But for some reason, it was reporting that they had clicked that.
So unclear whether whether it is even, like you know? So I’m kind of I’m not counting on my current audience getting me this client, I guess, is what I’m saying.
Okay. But there’s twelve people that might be warm of your current I’m just trying to think of, like, are there any relationships that or are you for sure for sure starting from scratch?
There’s one past client I have on my list to reach out to, but I like her so much that I am afraid I, like, kind of am afraid to pitch her now because I want to be really confident in the offer before I pitch this to her.
I’d rather do it for a stranger first and then bring it to her when I feel, like, more of you know, like, like Oh, yeah.
You don’t wanna burn it. Right?
Yeah.
And, also, I feel like it’d be more I don’t wanna make the relationship weird if she says no. So So I’d rather bring it to her, like, a really compelling result and say, like, let’s do this for you.
Mhmm.
Just as, a really brief reminder, I know we’ve spoken about this, like, probably half a dozen times by now. But the this is for the post sale of a signature offer, whether that’s a course, like a cohort course or a coaching program. Right? Like, either?
Yeah.
Sweet.
Cool. And, like, your ideal client is someone who has, ideally, very recently, like, had a windfall, a successful launch or something, right, and hasn’t thought far ahead enough to know what happens next with that. Right?
Yeah. So in, one of the pictures that I sent today I mean, the timing is probably terrible. Like, she has her prelaunch event next week. So I was like, would be great to get something in the books, like, you know, before you start, enrolling students so we could talk about how you can turn the work that you’re putting into this launch into sustainable ongoing profit.
Like Mhmm.
That’s kind of the angle I’m taking in my content in September is, like, making the work that you’re putting into your fall launch continue to pay off Mhmm. With with sale after sale behind the scenes.
Got it. Cool.
So in your outreach to programs, masterminds, communities, right, like, you’re pretty dialed in on who has that audience. Right? Like, you’re fairly clear on that list?
I’m fairly clear. I mean, I’m looking like, it’s pretty easy in the coaching space because people are pretty explicit about, like, this is for seven figure coaches. Right? Like, so that’s who I’m looking at.
Yeah. I think my biggest roadblock there, in my opinion, is is, like, when I brought this for feedback in a coaching program that I’m in that’s full of my ideal clients, I shared my webinar registration page, which is, like, how to add five to six figures to your bottom line with no new ads, offers, or launches.
And the coach was like, this would be so much more compelling if you framed it as a case study or something that you have personally done.
Mhmm.
And I was like, yeah.
And, like, duh. But I can’t do that because I haven’t done it. So that’s, like, that’s kind of the resistance that I feel I’m getting just to getting this first client.
Yep. Cool. Jess has a question, and then we’ll jump into discussion.
K.
So I so you mentioned your, assistant.
Do you have I’m sorry.
Do I can’t remember.
Do you have any other team members?
No.
No. Okay. So just that one.
And then, was that when you said you don’t wanna take this new offer to someone you’ve already you real it’s a it’s there’s a relationship there, does that mean that that strategy, the relationship lead gen type stuff you’re unwilling to do because this is so new and you don’t wanna do that way?
Well, it’s more that she’s she’s only, like like, if I didn’t know her, I would say she is, like, a fifty percent fit because she’s not at the right income level. Like, she doesn’t have the scale of enrollment that would really get her the results that I’m looking to generate for people.
Okay. So it’s not just about the relationship. There’s other okay. Perfect. So you are willing to tap into a strategy that’s worked for you before the relationship stuff?
Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Okay.
It’s more just that I feel my current relationships I don’t have relationships with my ideal clients.
K. Cool. Cool.
I’ll stop sharing, and I’m happy to pop I don’t know if it’s helpful, but I’ll pop the link to that Google Doc in the chat because it has links to the other things if you if you want.
Okay. And then I’ll go away. Awesome. Cool. Thanks, Katie.
Alright. Who’s got some thoughts?
Jessica’s wall reminding me to do the damn work Well all the time. Yep. I know. I know.
If that gets annoying, I can take it down. I know. I usually do during meetings. I just forgot. I’m sorry.
It’s not a reminder.
She feels Oh, sorry.
Yeah. No. No.
Yeah.
I don’t like the reminder either, but it no.
It’s good. It’s all good.
All good.
Too late right on the garden set.
Just give it one minute. It’ll it’ll be done.
So she said she had twenty five, and half of them were not actual links, which means there’s, like, twelve people.
So what if she reached out to those twelve people if those aren’t already included in her ones, who aren’t the friend that she doesn’t wanna burn?
And then, like, she has results from other stuff. Like, she does good work.
Right?
So and I shouldn’t be one to talk because I could say the same thing to myself. But, like, do you just put on the alter ego and say this is what I can do for you? And then, like Joe says, just figure out how to make it happen.
Like, is that how you get your first one?
And I think if she reaches out to those twelve, would one surprise her?
Like, it might be somebody completely that you’re like, what?
And maybe it’s not a total perfect fit, but it does it really matter for the one where you’re, like, figuring out your process? Mhmm. I think she gets to where that confidence.
Right?
I love offers that fill voids rather than optimize existing things because it’s almost all upside.
Right? Like, if she’s helping them Yeah. Build in these things that they just don’t have.
Right?
Yeah. There’s almost, like, no way to lose. Right? And, like yeah. So I think she gets aware of the confidence of that. Right? Like, there’s almost no downside.
Yeah.
Yeah. That’s true. Mhmm. Because they’re not doing anything.
They have no, control that they’re like, that she has to beat or, like Mhmm.
Not even any strategy that she has to beat. There is no strategy there. And she’s coming in and saying, you’re gonna get more money in your account.
Yep. Exactly. If she gets to create the control, then keep beating her own control, which is like I love those situations. They’re the best.
What I would do if I had to get that client this afternoon, right, like, as Marina said, like, start with those twelve people. You just don’t know who they are. Like, you literally don’t know who they are. Like, send a direct message, see if there’s opportunity there.
Out of the other activities, this might be, like, super tactical, but I would definitely prioritize guesting in paid masterminds, paid courses next. But paid mastermind is usually a live setting with people who are actively doing things. Right? Paid courses, longer term asset, Evergreen may yield a result in the short term, but you’re gonna get results trickling in over time.
Podcasts, you don’t really have control of whether when those are getting released, and they tend to be a less, qualified audience. Right? Like, it’s before the free line. So, yeah, if you really wanted to tighten those activities, right, and go deeper on any one of them, that would be, guest pitching for masterminds and programs, in my opinion.
And the very, very fun and interesting and unexpected side benefit I’ve had of those, right, is in guest pitching for people’s audiences. Sometimes they get really interested in what you’re doing too. Right? I’ve gotten a client in pitching to do a mastermind for their audience, and they’re like, oh, I kinda have that gap. Would you be opposed to having that conversation between you and I now?
So I would say, like, that could be your highest yield activity.
Yeah, open to your thoughts.
I’d just blitz. I mean, ten she said ten days. Right? It was ten days?
Mhmm.
Yeah. That to me is not a long amount of time just because I can waste ten days very easily. So I would just do everything you all just said, and then I’d also I mean, I’ll be really straight up honest. I would reach out to Joe.
I’d reach out to Rai. I’d reach out to Perna. I’d reach out to Shane, and I would literally say, do you know someone who might need this? And I just I mean, why not leverage your contacts?
Why are we in here? Like, I just think reach out to those contacts and ask who they know and ask for a connection.
I I am but look. I have no shame. I’m totally that person who does it. So you gotta be willing to do it. But, frankly, I just think ten days, and I’m like, oh, crap. I better sprint.
So, yeah, I think either way to get something by end of day today or tomorrow would be leveraging all the contacts she has in the copywriting world and just asking, who do you know? This is the problem I’m solving. Like you guys said, it’s a great one.
That’s what I would do.
Mhmm. Yeah. Full permission to be that person. Right? Like Mhmm. Notion. There you go. Put that on your sign.
Be that damn person.
Be that damn person. Alright. That’ll go next. Right?
Yeah.
Well, they also say that sometimes work doesn’t come from that first connection, but from some I think Alex Hermozzi talks about that in his, like, lead gen thing. It’s sometimes the person who knows somebody that you know, so you’re not even connected to them. But because they know what you do, then if they’re in that conversation, then they’re like, oh, I know a guy or whatever. Right? And then they connect you.
Now how you can do that in ten days, just go do all the things in hundred million dollar leads.
It’s like connecting with a hundred people. You spend a hundred minutes and you’re connecting with, like, a hundred people.
Let’s solve the thing. It’s, like, pretty hardcore. If you actually do it, I think you you would get Mhmm.
I think there’s an opportunity.
So, yeah, masterminds and programs is really where I would start. I would definitely blitz in every asset I have, every relationship I have, like, be that person.
Anyone could anyone who gets mad at you for being that person probably doesn’t belong in your life anyway.
And then I so where I get also really curious, right, is, like, obviously, like, the the SaaS and the tools that your audience uses.
I would look and target some of the newer ones who are in kind of, like, hyper growth right now. And if you wanna make a very specific ask, you don’t need to ask them to send that to their entire list and community. You can make that a special value add for their tier two members, right, like, as a bonus master class. Right?
So you know that you’re speaking to people who are already scaling. Right? If you’re talking to Teachable, you don’t need to ask to send out to the whole Teachable list because the people on the free plan probably aren’t your people anyway. Right?
Like, talk to those who have, you know, more than a hundred students. Right? Because now you have a sense that, yeah, it’s a it’s a less of an ask for, the company you’re pitching. Right?
You’re not asking to mail the whole list. You’re asking a very specific subset, and you’re bringing value that they can bring to their prior to members as well. So just a little little tactic you can, consider.
So Tacky Moore, do you know him on Instagram?
Plus Joe has talked about him too.
Yeah.
And he does a program for He’s totally a program for looks.
Yeah.
For coaches and stuff.
Yep.
What if you just, like I mean, that would take guts.
Yeah.
Totally. Because there’s a few there’s there’s many talking boards out there as well. Right? Like, make that short list. Certainly see where you can get those introductions from people who, wanna help you. Right? And, yeah.
Cool. Cool. There’s also, something like around the block from you.
Katie, there’s, Danny, like, hundreds of course creators there, like, literally down the street. You probably even see him walking around. I used to see him walking around all the time. So, yeah, don’t cold approach. Cold knock on a door. That’s more fun.
Danny Ini here. I’ll type it in chat. Danny Ini.
Sweet.
Alright. I think, we’re ready to welcome you back, Katie.
Okay. Thank you, guys.
So what I heard was prioritize pitching the masterminds as content for their audience.
I mean, like yeah. The blitzing, Jessica, totally appreciate the invitation to be more shameless.
Definitely let that hold me back a lot.
And and then yeah, the idea of, like, pitching the workshop to newer tools, I think that’s really cool. I have actually a on, like, Facebook connected to the one of the cofounders of MemberVault, and I had she’s, like, on my list of, I guess I just I have the list of, like, people I feel comfortable point pitching now who are people I mostly don’t know. And then there’s, like, the little, like, golden egg people I wanna pitch that I’m sitting on for when I feel like I have a really like, I was like, oh, well, before I pitch her before I pitch her, I should probably, like, sign up for MemberVault and understand how my, like, how my clients could who are using MemberVault. Like, right, to I just having that more in-depth understanding.
So I guess from those three main strategies or four main strategies. So and, like, reaching out to the reaching out directly to the people on my list.
That’s easy. I’m gonna do that. That’s number one. So hello. Zoom.
Recognizing my gestures. Number one, reach out to the people who clicked the link directly and anybody else who’s clicked any of my you know, indicates that there were warm lead links.
Number two, basically, instead of pitching podcasts next week, I’m gonna move up masterminds next week.
And then number three, email people I know who might have connections asking for that connection.
And then number four I mean, I feel like that was already kind of a number four to do of, like, pitching the tools.
Mhmm. Yeah.
When it so, like, would you with what I mentioned I already had in place versus these tips, would you, at this point, only be focusing on that outreach, or would you be doing anything else behind the scenes to prepare for the eventual yes?
So I would prioritize getting your first client ASAP. I think that you have enough in place and enough just, like, grasp of your craft that you can figure that out right as you get that cash in the bank. So I would prioritize that. And I would prioritize the marketing strategies that bring you closest to that.
Right? Like, building out a cold funnel where there’s not trust in a warm handoff takes more time in a longer cycle. Right? If you get warmly introduced to someone’s mastermind saying, like, I just met Katie, and she’s brilliant.
I love the strategy she shares, and I highly recommend you tune in. That warm handoff shortens the sales cycle by months, literally. Right?
So that’s why I would prioritize that because they’re not asking for case studies at that point. Right? You don’t need that as your main top of funnel hook. You’re getting that warm introduction and the borrowed credibility.
So I’d start with the ones that you feel you have some most comfortable with than the ones that are second second degree connection. And when you do reach out to your networks, sometimes even just having, like, your dream list of, like, your dream ten or your dream twenty, if any of you have connections to these people or know who I should speak to, like, that really makes it easier as an ask to me. Right? Like, when I literally see names there, and I’m like, oh, I know someone who works on their ads team. Right? Let me make that connection.
So, yeah, I’d I’d be bold. Like, be audacious, have your dream twenty of people that you know you know that client is in their mastermind or in that course, and make that ask. It’s not even, like, about shameful or shameless. It’s like, you just have so much value to give here, and you’re filling a gap. You’re not optimizing a piece that’s already there. So, yeah, go for it.
Okay.
And so No. Sorry. I blanked on my my question was. Because I was thinking about you. I think I saw on your Facebook page that the archangel guy, Giovanni.
Mhmm. Yep.
And I was thinking I was like, oh, maybe I should go to that event in Toronto as a way of meeting people because through his friends, I saw the connections. Anyway okay.
Yeah. We could talk about that. You could definitely message me about that. I was there last year in Toronto, so I could give you some, some feedback and tips. But yeah.
Okay. Okay. People on my list, masterminds, connections, tools.
Mhmm. Yep. And start with the ones you feel the most confident with just to get rolling. Like, you don’t have to go with, like, the ten on ten scary ones.
Right? The holy grails. Like, work your way up, and, obviously, don’t delay either. But just start where start where you’re most comfortable and where you could take that action.
Okay.
Cool?
Okay. Thanks, guys. Keep going on your DM.
I’m in. I’ll be there. Cool. Thanks, everybody.
Transcript
Alright. Well, yeah, I think we could just jump straight into it.
We’re gonna kick it off with Andrew.
So, yeah, if it’s the first time, I don’t think it’s anyone’s first time. But, yeah, we’ll do five minutes of, yeah, sharing about your situation, the thing you’d like some feedback on, five minutes of clarifying questions from the group, and that’s where I’m gonna be, like, super anti Canadian and hold us to those five minutes because that’s the part that can sometimes go off track. I think we all grew up watching a lot of CSI, right, and interrogation shows where, like, I don’t know. It’s just so much fun when we get to go in interrogation mode.
But what about this? Have you considered that? Where were you the night of the twelfth? Yeah.
So, yeah, I’ll hold us to that five minutes. Then we’ll have a fifteen minute discussion while the hot cedar, goes off camera, and then you’ll come back with a takeaway item. Cool?
Awesome. Beautiful. Well, Andrew, you are up, my friend.
Cool. Cool.
So my challenge is that I am just having the hardest time creating something that is, a process that is repeatable to the degree that I feel like I could actually hand it off to someone else.
I just find that there’s even even within my kind of narrow, my sort of even with really specializing and, there still ends up being, like, a lot of kind of what seems like necessary customization, a lot of kind of complexity, variance between clients even though they kind of, you know, from afar look to be similar enough.
And just for context, the sort of what I’m experimenting with right now is basically a micro agency for b to b SaaS companies that is focused on landing page optimization.
Ideally, those will be paid search landing pages, but there is a lot of, people tend to care more about their, like, organic website. And so in the in the versions that I’ve done of this so far of this process, I’ve I’ve done both, I’ve done both paid search landing pages that stand alone on the website, which reduces a lot of complexity on my end. But I’ve also done, work on the organic website, which tends to add some complexity.
And, yeah, I just find that, like, a lot of clients have different starting points for research, and they often have a lot of existing documentation that, like, product marketing teams have put together, and it always takes a different format. Sometimes it’s, like, super helpful. Sometimes it’s not at all helpful.
Sometimes there’s a lot of noise to sort through. It’s just like, what even is this?
And, also, the products tend to be very technical. So there’s, like, have to get up to speed on learning about their product whether it’s, like, data management or, you know, IT, whatever stuff.
And so, yeah, there’s just a whole lot of complexity, a lot of what feels like necessary customization, And I just I’m having a hard time imagining myself being able to package up this one process, train someone on it, and hand it off to them. I’m just having a hard time with that. And I’d love to get to a place where there’s either a lot more standardization.
Well, yeah, I’d like to get to a point where there’s more standardization.
Cool. Thanks, Andrew. Floor is open for some questions.
Can I ask Andrew, like, when you talk about systematizing the process and being able to hand it off to somebody else, what is your current expectation for the timeline of being able to do that?
You mean, like, how soon I’d be able to, Yeah.
Like, how many times would you just how many times do you intend to deliver it before handing it off, just to know, like, where your expectations are on from where you are now to being able to do that?
Yeah. I guess they don’t have any hard expectations. I have, like, one client right now where it’s like this is kind of the the test of the model, and I even told that to him of, like, you know, I’m trying out this new thing, and and here it is.
And so I don’t necessarily have a timeline on it, but I’m just trying to go as fast as I can, and I guess with it. So, you know, I think it would be great if by the start of the year, I could feel like I’m able to really start handing stuff off to the point where I’m I’m not necessarily doing the delivery work, maybe overseeing it. So that would be great, but I don’t really have something specific in mind. I’m not gonna be able to fully take myself out of all client work because of some existing contracts, until maybe at the earliest, the beginning of next year.
So that’s kind of the current timeline, I guess, for lack of timeline.
Oh, Marina.
So what processes do you have in place right now? Like, do you have SOPs that you are currently following, and are they recorded with you talking out your thinking?
Yeah. So what I have right now is, like, one thing I have is, like, a is a very high level SOP that has things where it’s like, so the the sort of research phase has high level things like I’m just reading it here. It’s like review existing documents and data, run client interviews, run surveys, like, that that kind of level.
And then I have a a business manager who’s helping me, like, move some of that some of those things, like, into Asana to help track, like, who’s doing what when. But I don’t have I don’t yet have the detailed level of here’s how we do this thing. And I think part of the problem with that is that I’m not always doing it the same way every time, and I’m dealing with a lot of maybe, like, perfectionism around how that’s done. And so I’m not settling into, like, okay.
This these are the documents that we fill out during the research phase. Like, I’m building those, but I’m always having this feeling of, like, oh, but that doesn’t include this. And then, no, I should do that instead. And so so I’m I’m getting there.
But in terms of, like, actual SOPs, those are not nearly where they need to be for me to hand things off yet. And some of that comes back to my own indecision around what that should work on.
Okay. So to follow-up with that, what do you most want to hand off?
Like, if you can’t hand off the whole project, what would be the first thing that you would say I just want? It could be the easiest thing to hand off or the thing you hate the most. Maybe, like, what are both of those? Easiest and the one you hate?
Yeah. I think that the probably the biggest thing right now would be either, like, research in general or at the very least, like, packaging up the research.
So because I just find that that’s where I really lose a lot of time. It’s just, like, sorting through all of this stuff, making sense of it, trying to organize it. Like, I’m just not good at that kind of thing. I’m not very good at the research process. I’m good at, like, thinking about, like, asking questions. Like, what do we need to know? But I’m not good at organizing research.
I don’t know if I’m I don’t enjoy analyzing it.
So those are that would be kind of, like, the first thing I’d like to hand off.
But I also have found I was able to subcontract someone for a simpler project, and this is someone who has honestly, like, probably the same skill close to the same skill level that I have. And And it was nice because I was just able to, like, just do your thing, and and that works. But I think what I’ve learned from that is that having the person who does the research also be the person who’s writing the copy is probably a worthwhile way to do things. There’s just I think there’s a, I don’t know, efficiency there.
So I think in an ideal world, I’d be able to have someone who’s doing the research and the copy, and then I would sort of maybe be helping more with the big picture strategy and working with the client because, you know, AB testing, for example, is a big part of this. There’s a lot to discuss about what are we gonna test, what are we not gonna test, what is the test gonna run, you know, all of that stuff. And I think I’m better equipped to handle that than someone I would hand things off to.
But yeah. So to answer your question, I guess it’s it’s mostly researching and copy.
And if I had to get more specific, it would be organizing and analyzing research.
K. So do you have a set of research questions now that you use?
I do have existing questions. I think that the yes. I do have questions. Yeah.
Okay. I think I’m totally hogging all the time.
Can I just ask Andrew, like, what are you from our conversation, are you looking for tips on how to system ties the process? Like, what’s the number one outcome that you’re hoping to get from this?
I think I’m trying to figure out, like, where I’m getting in my own way and where I’m overcomplicating things, which I have a tendency to do. And I guess, like, in an ideal world, someone would be able to suggest something that’s kind of, like, the one thing that makes everything else easier or, like, you know, obviously, I’m not expecting a a bad magic bullet or something like that. But, yeah, I get I guess the the biggest thing would be where am I overcomplicated things? Recognize simplify.
Take this.
Oh, everyone good?
Ready to move into a little discussion?
Sweet. Alright. Andrew, off camera and try not to sit on the pigeon shit. Or if you do, write a sales letter or buy hackers. You wanna put that in their copy.
Sweet.
Off camera.
There we go.
Sweet. Who’s got some thoughts? And hello to everyone who’s joined in. I see Jessica’s here. James is here.
Welcome, y’all. Alright. Let’s have a little chat.
I mean, one really low hanging fruit thing that I think Andrew could start by doing is using AI for research analysis and presentation. That’s been I’m not a huge AI adopter at this point, but that has been one of the main ways that I’ve been using it is, like, taking all my survey results and putting them in there and getting them organized by theme. And then if I’m looking for a specific quote, I don’t have to, like, go digging through the survey data. I get Chachapita, like, spit it out back to me. So for his own short term research process, that could be a good place to start. And then also for, creating an SOP, like, training somebody how to opt or, organize the research, that could be something that helps somebody who’s not that great at research get a leg up, easily.
Yeah. I agree. I think, there might even be an opportunity there. Right? Like, to hire an AI consultant who can develop that system. Right? If if it’s not something he’s super clear on, right, that one hire could probably yield him efficiencies and savings down the line, right, through his own work as well as the subcontracting.
So I love that idea.
I’m just wondering if he has a list of questions, and then if he can, backward engineer the research that he’s done so far to create sort of a general ideal, this is what a research package would look like.
And then if he hired somebody that actually enjoyed doing research and then said, this is like, here’s painted done. This is what done should look like. Here’s a list of the questions, and then trust the person because they like research. If they have the questions, that they’ll then find the answers to then fill in the format that he wants. And that might, I think maybe he’s projecting because and I say this because I do this too. But just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean somebody else does.
So maybe he’s projecting a little bit of that thinking, like, why would somebody wanna do this when it might be, like, their total thing that they Right.
Geeked out on and love.
Yeah. I empathize with, like, research and synthesis and intake being one of the harder parts to boil down into kind of, like, a step by step process.
I’ve worked with a range of clients, and some of them do want to dump everything they’ve compiled for ten years in order for them to feel like their case has been fully taken into account.
And it brings to mind, like, a practice like, a Chinese medicine practitioner I worked with, like, not too long ago. Right? And, like, I wanted to come onto that call with, like, a whole list of everything I’ve tried to do over the last, like, ten years to fix this thing. Right?
And he’s like, shut up. I just need your pulse. Right? Like and there might be an element of, like, shut up.
I just need your pulse here, right, of, like, a level of confidence to say, this is all I need as, you know, an input to get this output and just some, you know, radical boundary setting in that base. So I don’t know if that’s a possibility for Andrew, but the shut up, I just need your pulse approach might be worth considering.
Well and then if he has a framework that research ends up in, that might be easier to keep the boundary because then it’s just like, oh, I don’t need that stuff because it doesn’t fit in this, and I know I only need this in order to get to the outcome.
Mhmm.
This is hard.
Yeah. I I’m also writing the, radical boundary setting on my list, but I’d be curious what you guys think of the idea of having if Andrew brought somebody onto his team now and gave them the objective and got them to document how they got there, and then that becomes the SOP so that he doesn’t have to hire somebody and train them on his SOP, but rather he’s also outsourcing the process creation to that subcontractor who then is more invested in that process because they developed it. I mean, like, as long as he’s satisfied with the outcome and product of that process, does it really have to be him who develops it?
Especially if he doesn’t like it. So somebody is gonna be more innovative, right, if they like research if they if he has a clear outcome.
Right.
That’s a good idea.
I like that. There may also be an element where that person in charge of research and intake can be setting that boundary with clients if Andrew would prefer not to. Right? Like, you know, you’re gonna have this chat or you’re gonna be in contact with, you know, our researcher. Right?
And they’re the ones who get to set that boundary as well, so it’s a little removed as well. Could be a good idea.
Also, it goes back to what Joe said, I think, on Monday’s call about, like, the less they see you, the more they want you kind of thing. So if it’s if they’re they have more the researcher and less time with Andrew.
Mhmm. Yeah. That’s interesting.
Alright. So, yeah, I think we have some, like, good ideas there. We had to recap, we had, getting potentially an AI consultant to streamline that process. Right?
And I think that that becomes most appropriate when Andrew’s identified, like, very clearly. Like, these are the friction points. Right? These are the points that are taking way too much bandwidth, way too much complexity, way too much complexity, way too much variance.
Right? How do we actually simplify this and automate this? I think that could be a really awesome, you know, contractor to hire.
And then I love the idea. Right? Like, I think it totally is within the realm of possibility of hiring someone that loves research, right, loves synthesis, loves, you know, that whole intake process, has already likely developed some really epic systems around it and can help implement that and also create a layer removed for Andrew, right, in client facing time on that topic and set the boundaries where needed.
A lot of the standardization, right, first requires boundary setting with the client. Right? It’s not letting them dictate your process, but then following your process as the expert.
And that’s uncomfortable. I mean, it was uncomfortable for me. Right? I’ll speak for myself. Like, as a shy Canadian being like, no.
No. No. We’re gonna do things this way. Right? Like, I don’t like saying that shit.
But, like, you have to at some point, especially if you have clear evidence that all that extra stuff is extending timelines and not serving the result. Right? That’s where you’re in fierce advocacy of the success of a project and ultimately your client. So, yeah, I like it.
Cool. Any other, thoughts, or shall we welcome Andrew back?
He was also saying about the copywriter and researcher being the same person, But I’m wondering if then the researcher bandwidth would soon run out as he gets more clients.
But I’m wondering about pairing, the researcher with, the copywriter.
So maybe I don’t know.
Maybe he has two I don’t I’m trying to think because I know getting research from somebody else, then you end up sifting through it all yourself anyway, and then it’s not actually a time save.
Right.
But if somebody compiles if somebody gets all the research in one spot, so you’re not, like, having to go hunting for it Mhmm. That might help the copywriter and still speed up the copywriting, but they’re still involved with the research, but not as in-depth.
And then the copywriter could also call on that researcher and go like, just work in collaboration with the researcher being like, hey. I need this data point.
Do you like, is it somewhere?
Right?
Right.
And so more more of that collaborative copywriter researcher kind of thing.
Yeah. That makes sense. I also wonder like, it brings back the AI conversation. Right? Like, what can you input from, like, all the documentation of a client, right, and ask AI.
Right? Like, I need more information on this. Can you articulate it in a grade three language that a non techie person could understand? Right?
Like, that’s totally available right now.
Yes. So Shane, uses this thing called a. I got it off of AppSumo too. I haven’t used it extensively yet.
I know Shane does. And you can, like, upload a bunch of stuff into it and do that. Mhmm. Okay.
I haven’t done it myself yet, so I can’t speak to it. But Shane does it, and he’s brilliant and has done all sorts of business stuff.
Yeah.
So I wonder if that might be yeah. That’s what it is, Jessica.
If that might be part of a solution.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Because what I was hearing, and I think y’all picked up on it too. Right? Like, a big part of the bandwidth suck, but sometimes, like, getting up to speed on product information, right, especially the more technical side of things.
And sometimes, as you said, right, like, a copywriter could be bottlenecked, like, unexpectedly in having a gap in that information and then even a gap of understanding that information and trying to translate it into English. Right? So, yeah, that could be a part of the SOP. Right?
It’s like, in that intake, you create that knowledge base. Right? You load those documents into the AI. Right?
And then the SOP is when you get bottlenecked on something product related or tech related.
Here’s the prompt. Right? And yeah.
I think, like, in all of this, there gets to be the expectation that efficiency goes up over time, smoothness of SOPs go go up over time. Right? Like and this is the perfectionist aspect. Like, I want the perfect SOPs from day one, and the way they get perfect is from seeing the friction points, realizing where there’s gaps, right, and solving for them. So it’s a constant iteration of, like, incompleteness, completing it, seeing where there’s still gaps, and refining it. So I think there’s gotta be some degree of a willingness and a threshold for it not being ideal and perfect.
And at the same time, I love that Andrew. It’s like foreseeing where there’s, like, very clear gaps right off the bat and not wanting to put himself in, you know, tough positions.
Cool.
Cool. Alright. Andrew, welcome back.
Awesome. Yeah.
That was all really helpful.
Especially, I think, the piece around, like, getting better at setting boundaries with the client around, like, what do I need versus what’s just gonna be noise for me.
And I think it probably does start with having my own frameworks a little bit more. Like, I just sort of like, oh, this is our process, and these are the things that I sort of need to fill out. Is that what I need to know? Who is the client? I want you to help me kind of focus on the information that I need to know and not just giving me, like, all of your documents, which is kind of my own I think that’s my own doing is that I ask for all this stuff right now, and I think I need to stop doing that. And I need to start thinking in terms of here are the questions that I have.
I need you to help me help my researcher answer these questions Right.
And not think not just letting myself. Because right now, with with all this stuff there, then I’m just going down these rabbit holes. And I’m like, oh, like, they have this messaging framework thing. And, like, do I need to follow that, or do I not need to follow that? And so, yeah, I think a lot of this comes back to having that process in place and then deciding if am I gonna be the one who’s gonna figure out that that exact process, or am I gonna hire someone to help me figure out that process? I’m gonna hire someone to help me figure out how how AI can fit into this.
So, yeah, I I think that a lot of it just comes back to the I end up expanding the scope on my own, the work. I’m just gonna, Oh, but I haven’t thought of that. It is perfectionist. I haven’t thought, oh, what if I go in this direction? What else? I need to find ways to think more in terms of constraints.
And Yep.
All of that. But I I took a ton of notes here.
That that was all super helpful. Everyone had really good feedback.
Radical boundary setting is gonna be my biggest takeaway from this. But yeah. And then for AI, I do use that.
Marina, I do use that a little bit. It does help with it. But, again, I it comes back to too much information. Mhmm. That just need the pulse as as you said. Right?
So It be I think it begins with being, like, ruthless in that direction.
Right? Because you can always get more information at some point in your process. Right? And, like Yeah.
And I’m gonna try to use a good New York New York metaphor. Like, let’s say you have, like, a pizzeria. Right? And, like, a New York New York pizzas are awesome.
Right? So it’s like, you only really need a few ingredients to make an epic pizza. Right? And let’s say you’re sourcing those ingredients.
You don’t need, like, anchovies. You definitely don’t need pineapple. Like, you definitely definitely don’t need pineapple, or bacon or sardines or all that. Right?
You don’t need a messy pizza. Right? Like, get the core of what you need to just deliver an epic output. And if you wanna get spicy later, right, you can invite those extra pieces.
But, yeah, I think whether it’s you setting those boundaries, like and even your own self boundaries of not getting curious in these directions, which I’m totally guilty of. Right?
Yes.
Yeah.
And then later, I’m like, why did I ask a client for that? I don’t even wanna look at this thing that they’re sending. Right?
So, yeah, I think it’s For sure. So Yeah. Thank you all.
Very, very helpful. Great stuff. Thank you all.
Awesome. Thank you, Andrew. Not getting curious. That’s a real thing. Oh, totally. Yeah. Awesome. Katie, you’re up.
Yeah. I agree on the not getting curious thing because I think I usually end up, like, adding on a secret extra project that I’m, like, pursuing through my own curiosity.
Okay. But speaking of focus, I made a Google Doc of what I wanted to talk about so I wouldn’t get distracted.
Do you mind if I share my screen?
Yeah. Please do. Go for it. You should have access. I find it. Okay.
Okay.
So I feel mentally prepared, mindset fully prepared for my first client for this new offer.
I want to book them, like, in the next ten days. I’m I’m, like, opening up to receive this client coming to me. I have the offer.
I know what it is.
I I have a rough delivery SOP, like, what phase one, phase two, phase three would look like. I have every URL I could possibly need for the offer and the agency.
I have my lead magnet, which is my ROI calculator, which includes, per our last conversation on this ride, like, a Loom walk through and the spreadsheet itself.
I’ve done my workshop, per the intensive freelancer instructions.
I’m doing Instagram content, poke pointing people to it. I’ve been emailing my own list about it.
Yesterday, I wrote a shitty first draft of my sales page.
Yeah. And then, like, once you sign up for the webinar or for the workshop, there’s three emails to get you to watch it.
The the the caution sign means it’s half done. So once you once you indicate that you’ve watched the webinar by clicking the link or anything else, there’s, I think, one email so far inviting you to book a call, but I plan to build that out.
I have in my calendar, like, space blocked to actually really think through, like, what it’s gonna look like to do this. But because it’s, like, a totally new offer and I’ve never done it before, I’m kind of just accepting that the first time I’m gonna be documenting what I do versus, like, trying to document that process before I’ve done it.
I created like, it’s like a landing page that, like, the hero section points people to my workshop, and the next section invites people to book a call on the agency URL.
And then I’m, you know, I’m working on, like, blog posts around this. I have an outline for the book. I don’t have any team. So my question is oh, yeah.
And this is what I’m doing. So I’m cold pitching. I’m booking coffee chats. I’m writing blog posts.
But I just am having trouble basically, I spend I’m doing, like, ten things to ten percent every day instead of one thing to a hundred percent because I’m having trouble prioritizing which thing to complete next.
The thing I mean, okay. Cool. This is my first time ever cold pitching. I’ve done I made myself this goal of, like, of each of the four weeks in a month. Like, week one, I’ll pitch five people. Week two, I’ll pitch five podcasts. Week three, I’ll pitch five programs to come in as a guest expert.
Week four, I’ll pitch, like, product, like, you know, like, Zapier or ConvertKit or something, you know, that my clients would use.
So far, I’ve done three this week, with the goal to do two more today, but that’s definitely, like, now that I ripped the Band Aid off, I can see that coming faster.
Yeah. I don’t know. Where like, what is my shortest path to somebody paying me money?
And, also, like, ideally, in a smart way that will help me make this thing sustainably successful.
Mhmm.
Love it. That’s a very clear question.
So just to be clear, like, if you got that client this afternoon, like, you would feel confident confident enough to get to work on it. Right? Like, you’re done with the preparation phase for it. Like, you’re ready for that client. Correct?
Well, great question. But, actually, no. I’m like, well, my assistant is still I think I need to let my assistant go because she’s been working on my client portal for, like, five weeks now.
So that’s gonna be a notion, but it’s a work in progress.
Also, I’m really reluctant to let her go because she’s the first person that’s ever anyway, it’s just like, I’m reluctant to let her go because I wanna be in a ramping up period, not a starting from scratch period. But Mhmm. I do think that long term, I need somebody who’s more, action oriented.
Sure. Yep.
And then I don’t I also haven’t completed the templatized proposal, but I also thought that that would kind of like, I’ve done eighty percent of it, and I figured that would also come once I had actually had a client to do it for.
Mhmm. Cool. Alright. Any other questions?
I I have a quick one if that’s okay. Please.
When you look at this list and if you could wave a magic wand and pick the one that you feel would if you solve this one, it would propel the other ones being solved faster, which one do your eyes land on?
I think if I if I could only do one thing Mhmm. Would pitch people with the ROI calculator, which I kind of forgot about. But, like, I knew I had I had thought about that strategy before. So far, I’ve just been emailing people, but I had previously talked about, like, emailing people a loom of the ROI calculator with their numbers plugged in, and I haven’t tried that yet.
So that’s one thing where I think it gets like, it has more more curiosity and intrigue than just a text based email.
Okay. Sorry. So sorry, Katie. Can you just say one more time what’s, like, the big question you want answered from our feedback?
What what how do I prioritize my tasks? Or, like, what is my shortest path to a paying client?
Shortest path to a paying client. And so you’re saying that you believe right now the ROI calculator putting more time into that would lead to that outcome?
Not it’s ready to go. But if I were right, so right now, I’ve just been sending, like, short email pitches.
Mhmm.
And I think that including the loom of what the ROI calculator like, with the ROI calculator results would make that a more compelling pitch. Okay.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you.
I’m happy to put this in the if I could find you guys again.
Marina, did you wanna I do have a question.
So, what have you done to get clients in the past? I know this is a totally new offer, but what is something that there’s a direct line between, like, oh, I did this thing. I got this client.
Yeah.
I have primarily like, I would say probably eighty percent of my clients come from guest experting in other people’s programs and then being, like well, I was in a I was in a group coaching program where I was that coach’s copywriter, and then pretty pretty much everybody else in the program worked with me. And through her talking in her content about me being her copywriter, I got a lot of clients that way. So that’s why, like, pitching programs is on here in the sense of, yeah, that that has been successful me in the for me in the past. But I do think that that is hard to recreate without that existing relationship with the coach because I haven’t I feel like if I pitch this to a coach and say, let me teach your audience about this, she’s gonna be like, well, talk to me about who else you’ve done this for successfully before she wants to put me in front of her paying mastermind members. So that’s where I feel that strategy might not work as well at this point.
Okay. But it sounds like it’s relational.
Yes. Yes. So okay. So relational. And so what has been the usual sales cycle? Like, how long?
So when you say you wanna get an a client in the next ten days, based on your previous sales cycle with relationship marketing, Is that possible, or are you, like Well, I feel like, the biggest, like, the reason that I think my past sales process is kind of moot here is that it’s a completely different audience.
Like, I don’t I think maybe one percent of my email subscribers fit my ICP.
Maybe three percent of my inst my, like, small Instagram following, but, I really think, like, whereas I always got new clients by going back back to my past clients or getting referrals from my past clients. I think that this has been such a pivot in terms of who I’m talking to that I need to be, like, hence the cool hence the new cold pitching and kind of creating more of a funnel to pull to pull people in.
So that one percent, have you reached out to that one percent that you think might be of your current Well, like, okay.
I sent when I was, like, seeding this offer to my email list Mhmm. Of seven hundred and fifty people, I sent them out, like, click here if you’re interested, and I got twenty five clicks.
Oh, wow.
Like but when I went through that list, I don’t know I don’t know what tech gremlins make this happen, but, like, half of those people were people who hadn’t opened any of my emails ever.
Oh, okay.
But for some reason, it was reporting that they had clicked that.
So unclear whether whether it is even, like you know? So I’m kind of I’m not counting on my current audience getting me this client, I guess, is what I’m saying.
Okay. But there’s twelve people that might be warm of your current I’m just trying to think of, like, are there any relationships that or are you for sure for sure starting from scratch?
There’s one past client I have on my list to reach out to, but I like her so much that I am afraid I, like, kind of am afraid to pitch her now because I want to be really confident in the offer before I pitch this to her.
I’d rather do it for a stranger first and then bring it to her when I feel, like, more of you know, like, like Oh, yeah.
You don’t wanna burn it. Right?
Yeah.
And, also, I feel like it’d be more I don’t wanna make the relationship weird if she says no. So So I’d rather bring it to her, like, a really compelling result and say, like, let’s do this for you.
Mhmm.
Just as, a really brief reminder, I know we’ve spoken about this, like, probably half a dozen times by now. But the this is for the post sale of a signature offer, whether that’s a course, like a cohort course or a coaching program. Right? Like, either?
Yeah.
Sweet.
Cool. And, like, your ideal client is someone who has, ideally, very recently, like, had a windfall, a successful launch or something, right, and hasn’t thought far ahead enough to know what happens next with that. Right?
Yeah. So in, one of the pictures that I sent today I mean, the timing is probably terrible. Like, she has her prelaunch event next week. So I was like, would be great to get something in the books, like, you know, before you start, enrolling students so we could talk about how you can turn the work that you’re putting into this launch into sustainable ongoing profit.
Like Mhmm.
That’s kind of the angle I’m taking in my content in September is, like, making the work that you’re putting into your fall launch continue to pay off Mhmm. With with sale after sale behind the scenes.
Got it. Cool.
So in your outreach to programs, masterminds, communities, right, like, you’re pretty dialed in on who has that audience. Right? Like, you’re fairly clear on that list?
I’m fairly clear. I mean, I’m looking like, it’s pretty easy in the coaching space because people are pretty explicit about, like, this is for seven figure coaches. Right? Like, so that’s who I’m looking at.
Yeah. I think my biggest roadblock there, in my opinion, is is, like, when I brought this for feedback in a coaching program that I’m in that’s full of my ideal clients, I shared my webinar registration page, which is, like, how to add five to six figures to your bottom line with no new ads, offers, or launches.
And the coach was like, this would be so much more compelling if you framed it as a case study or something that you have personally done.
Mhmm.
And I was like, yeah.
And, like, duh. But I can’t do that because I haven’t done it. So that’s, like, that’s kind of the resistance that I feel I’m getting just to getting this first client.
Yep. Cool. Jess has a question, and then we’ll jump into discussion.
K.
So I so you mentioned your, assistant.
Do you have I’m sorry.
Do I can’t remember.
Do you have any other team members?
No.
No. Okay. So just that one.
And then, was that when you said you don’t wanna take this new offer to someone you’ve already you real it’s a it’s there’s a relationship there, does that mean that that strategy, the relationship lead gen type stuff you’re unwilling to do because this is so new and you don’t wanna do that way?
Well, it’s more that she’s she’s only, like like, if I didn’t know her, I would say she is, like, a fifty percent fit because she’s not at the right income level. Like, she doesn’t have the scale of enrollment that would really get her the results that I’m looking to generate for people.
Okay. So it’s not just about the relationship. There’s other okay. Perfect. So you are willing to tap into a strategy that’s worked for you before the relationship stuff?
Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Okay.
It’s more just that I feel my current relationships I don’t have relationships with my ideal clients.
K. Cool. Cool.
I’ll stop sharing, and I’m happy to pop I don’t know if it’s helpful, but I’ll pop the link to that Google Doc in the chat because it has links to the other things if you if you want.
Okay. And then I’ll go away. Awesome. Cool. Thanks, Katie.
Alright. Who’s got some thoughts?
Jessica’s wall reminding me to do the damn work Well all the time. Yep. I know. I know.
If that gets annoying, I can take it down. I know. I usually do during meetings. I just forgot. I’m sorry.
It’s not a reminder.
She feels Oh, sorry.
Yeah. No. No.
Yeah.
I don’t like the reminder either, but it no.
It’s good. It’s all good.
All good.
Too late right on the garden set.
Just give it one minute. It’ll it’ll be done.
So she said she had twenty five, and half of them were not actual links, which means there’s, like, twelve people.
So what if she reached out to those twelve people if those aren’t already included in her ones, who aren’t the friend that she doesn’t wanna burn?
And then, like, she has results from other stuff. Like, she does good work.
Right?
So and I shouldn’t be one to talk because I could say the same thing to myself. But, like, do you just put on the alter ego and say this is what I can do for you? And then, like Joe says, just figure out how to make it happen.
Like, is that how you get your first one?
And I think if she reaches out to those twelve, would one surprise her?
Like, it might be somebody completely that you’re like, what?
And maybe it’s not a total perfect fit, but it does it really matter for the one where you’re, like, figuring out your process? Mhmm. I think she gets to where that confidence.
Right?
I love offers that fill voids rather than optimize existing things because it’s almost all upside.
Right? Like, if she’s helping them Yeah. Build in these things that they just don’t have.
Right?
Yeah. There’s almost, like, no way to lose. Right? And, like yeah. So I think she gets aware of the confidence of that. Right? Like, there’s almost no downside.
Yeah.
Yeah. That’s true. Mhmm. Because they’re not doing anything.
They have no, control that they’re like, that she has to beat or, like Mhmm.
Not even any strategy that she has to beat. There is no strategy there. And she’s coming in and saying, you’re gonna get more money in your account.
Yep. Exactly. If she gets to create the control, then keep beating her own control, which is like I love those situations. They’re the best.
What I would do if I had to get that client this afternoon, right, like, as Marina said, like, start with those twelve people. You just don’t know who they are. Like, you literally don’t know who they are. Like, send a direct message, see if there’s opportunity there.
Out of the other activities, this might be, like, super tactical, but I would definitely prioritize guesting in paid masterminds, paid courses next. But paid mastermind is usually a live setting with people who are actively doing things. Right? Paid courses, longer term asset, Evergreen may yield a result in the short term, but you’re gonna get results trickling in over time.
Podcasts, you don’t really have control of whether when those are getting released, and they tend to be a less, qualified audience. Right? Like, it’s before the free line. So, yeah, if you really wanted to tighten those activities, right, and go deeper on any one of them, that would be, guest pitching for masterminds and programs, in my opinion.
And the very, very fun and interesting and unexpected side benefit I’ve had of those, right, is in guest pitching for people’s audiences. Sometimes they get really interested in what you’re doing too. Right? I’ve gotten a client in pitching to do a mastermind for their audience, and they’re like, oh, I kinda have that gap. Would you be opposed to having that conversation between you and I now?
So I would say, like, that could be your highest yield activity.
Yeah, open to your thoughts.
I’d just blitz. I mean, ten she said ten days. Right? It was ten days?
Mhmm.
Yeah. That to me is not a long amount of time just because I can waste ten days very easily. So I would just do everything you all just said, and then I’d also I mean, I’ll be really straight up honest. I would reach out to Joe.
I’d reach out to Rai. I’d reach out to Perna. I’d reach out to Shane, and I would literally say, do you know someone who might need this? And I just I mean, why not leverage your contacts?
Why are we in here? Like, I just think reach out to those contacts and ask who they know and ask for a connection.
I I am but look. I have no shame. I’m totally that person who does it. So you gotta be willing to do it. But, frankly, I just think ten days, and I’m like, oh, crap. I better sprint.
So, yeah, I think either way to get something by end of day today or tomorrow would be leveraging all the contacts she has in the copywriting world and just asking, who do you know? This is the problem I’m solving. Like you guys said, it’s a great one.
That’s what I would do.
Mhmm. Yeah. Full permission to be that person. Right? Like Mhmm. Notion. There you go. Put that on your sign.
Be that damn person.
Be that damn person. Alright. That’ll go next. Right?
Yeah.
Well, they also say that sometimes work doesn’t come from that first connection, but from some I think Alex Hermozzi talks about that in his, like, lead gen thing. It’s sometimes the person who knows somebody that you know, so you’re not even connected to them. But because they know what you do, then if they’re in that conversation, then they’re like, oh, I know a guy or whatever. Right? And then they connect you.
Now how you can do that in ten days, just go do all the things in hundred million dollar leads.
It’s like connecting with a hundred people. You spend a hundred minutes and you’re connecting with, like, a hundred people.
Let’s solve the thing. It’s, like, pretty hardcore. If you actually do it, I think you you would get Mhmm.
I think there’s an opportunity.
So, yeah, masterminds and programs is really where I would start. I would definitely blitz in every asset I have, every relationship I have, like, be that person.
Anyone could anyone who gets mad at you for being that person probably doesn’t belong in your life anyway.
And then I so where I get also really curious, right, is, like, obviously, like, the the SaaS and the tools that your audience uses.
I would look and target some of the newer ones who are in kind of, like, hyper growth right now. And if you wanna make a very specific ask, you don’t need to ask them to send that to their entire list and community. You can make that a special value add for their tier two members, right, like, as a bonus master class. Right?
So you know that you’re speaking to people who are already scaling. Right? If you’re talking to Teachable, you don’t need to ask to send out to the whole Teachable list because the people on the free plan probably aren’t your people anyway. Right?
Like, talk to those who have, you know, more than a hundred students. Right? Because now you have a sense that, yeah, it’s a it’s a less of an ask for, the company you’re pitching. Right?
You’re not asking to mail the whole list. You’re asking a very specific subset, and you’re bringing value that they can bring to their prior to members as well. So just a little little tactic you can, consider.
So Tacky Moore, do you know him on Instagram?
Plus Joe has talked about him too.
Yeah.
And he does a program for He’s totally a program for looks.
Yeah.
For coaches and stuff.
Yep.
What if you just, like I mean, that would take guts.
Yeah.
Totally. Because there’s a few there’s there’s many talking boards out there as well. Right? Like, make that short list. Certainly see where you can get those introductions from people who, wanna help you. Right? And, yeah.
Cool. Cool. There’s also, something like around the block from you.
Katie, there’s, Danny, like, hundreds of course creators there, like, literally down the street. You probably even see him walking around. I used to see him walking around all the time. So, yeah, don’t cold approach. Cold knock on a door. That’s more fun.
Danny Ini here. I’ll type it in chat. Danny Ini.
Sweet.
Alright. I think, we’re ready to welcome you back, Katie.
Okay. Thank you, guys.
So what I heard was prioritize pitching the masterminds as content for their audience.
I mean, like yeah. The blitzing, Jessica, totally appreciate the invitation to be more shameless.
Definitely let that hold me back a lot.
And and then yeah, the idea of, like, pitching the workshop to newer tools, I think that’s really cool. I have actually a on, like, Facebook connected to the one of the cofounders of MemberVault, and I had she’s, like, on my list of, I guess I just I have the list of, like, people I feel comfortable point pitching now who are people I mostly don’t know. And then there’s, like, the little, like, golden egg people I wanna pitch that I’m sitting on for when I feel like I have a really like, I was like, oh, well, before I pitch her before I pitch her, I should probably, like, sign up for MemberVault and understand how my, like, how my clients could who are using MemberVault. Like, right, to I just having that more in-depth understanding.
So I guess from those three main strategies or four main strategies. So and, like, reaching out to the reaching out directly to the people on my list.
That’s easy. I’m gonna do that. That’s number one. So hello. Zoom.
Recognizing my gestures. Number one, reach out to the people who clicked the link directly and anybody else who’s clicked any of my you know, indicates that there were warm lead links.
Number two, basically, instead of pitching podcasts next week, I’m gonna move up masterminds next week.
And then number three, email people I know who might have connections asking for that connection.
And then number four I mean, I feel like that was already kind of a number four to do of, like, pitching the tools.
Mhmm. Yeah.
When it so, like, would you with what I mentioned I already had in place versus these tips, would you, at this point, only be focusing on that outreach, or would you be doing anything else behind the scenes to prepare for the eventual yes?
So I would prioritize getting your first client ASAP. I think that you have enough in place and enough just, like, grasp of your craft that you can figure that out right as you get that cash in the bank. So I would prioritize that. And I would prioritize the marketing strategies that bring you closest to that.
Right? Like, building out a cold funnel where there’s not trust in a warm handoff takes more time in a longer cycle. Right? If you get warmly introduced to someone’s mastermind saying, like, I just met Katie, and she’s brilliant.
I love the strategy she shares, and I highly recommend you tune in. That warm handoff shortens the sales cycle by months, literally. Right?
So that’s why I would prioritize that because they’re not asking for case studies at that point. Right? You don’t need that as your main top of funnel hook. You’re getting that warm introduction and the borrowed credibility.
So I’d start with the ones that you feel you have some most comfortable with than the ones that are second second degree connection. And when you do reach out to your networks, sometimes even just having, like, your dream list of, like, your dream ten or your dream twenty, if any of you have connections to these people or know who I should speak to, like, that really makes it easier as an ask to me. Right? Like, when I literally see names there, and I’m like, oh, I know someone who works on their ads team. Right? Let me make that connection.
So, yeah, I’d I’d be bold. Like, be audacious, have your dream twenty of people that you know you know that client is in their mastermind or in that course, and make that ask. It’s not even, like, about shameful or shameless. It’s like, you just have so much value to give here, and you’re filling a gap. You’re not optimizing a piece that’s already there. So, yeah, go for it.
Okay.
And so No. Sorry. I blanked on my my question was. Because I was thinking about you. I think I saw on your Facebook page that the archangel guy, Giovanni.
Mhmm. Yep.
And I was thinking I was like, oh, maybe I should go to that event in Toronto as a way of meeting people because through his friends, I saw the connections. Anyway okay.
Yeah. We could talk about that. You could definitely message me about that. I was there last year in Toronto, so I could give you some, some feedback and tips. But yeah.
Okay. Okay. People on my list, masterminds, connections, tools.
Mhmm. Yep. And start with the ones you feel the most confident with just to get rolling. Like, you don’t have to go with, like, the ten on ten scary ones.
Right? The holy grails. Like, work your way up, and, obviously, don’t delay either. But just start where start where you’re most comfortable and where you could take that action.
Okay.
Cool?
Okay. Thanks, guys. Keep going on your DM.
I’m in. I’ll be there. Cool. Thanks, everybody.
Your Inner Authority (Part 3)
Your Inner Authority (Part 3)
Transcript
This is part three. Wrapping it up. And as I was, like, writing part three, I was trying to think of, like, the best trilogies in movie history.
Like I don’t know. What’s the best trilogy? Was, like, Batman a trilogy?
Yeah. That’s three. Yeah.
Pretty solid trilogy. Home Alone? Is that a trilogy?
Lord of the Rings.
Lord of the Rings, actually.
Lord of the Rings.
Yeah. That that is probably the best trilogy of all time. Yes. Agreed.
That’s where my mind went.
Yep.
Sweet. So, this is the third and final installment of DeepCraft and our authority, and this one’s all about how to use the scene, heard, felt framework to reveal pain, highlight natural urgency, and compel action. So as a recap, part one, which we did in February, there should be a replay somewhere, was all about deep voice of customer data, how to use three piercing questions to go beneath the surface and extract rich insight that your customers aren’t saying but want to say but don’t have the words to say, and you get to say them in your copy. Part two was shadow copy, how to balance virtuous and forbidden desire to elicit your prospects full range of the app. Yeah. I need this.
And then I think in April, we took a break and did something else, and now we’re wrapping up the trilogy. So recap. The inner authority is one who knows the prospect better than they know themselves, exposes, and illuminates that which the prospect is unable or unwilling to articulate or divulge, build stress and resonance through the whole damn, are you in my head phenomenon.
Four, make sure their one reader is fully fully seen, heard, felt on the page, or at least more seen and felt than any other competitor is willing or able to see them. So best way to make your prospect feel, seen, heard, and felt is to literally see, hear, and feel them.
So the mostly driven direct response copy will engage as many senses as they can to generate a reaction that moves a prospect towards action.
And we do this by painting scenes, like, literally seeing them, hearing, and feeling them in a very specific moment or type of moment that we’re gonna talk about in a second.
So before I get into all that, this is one of my all time favorite copy hacks. I guess I’ll call it a copy hack.
Especially if I’m getting tasked to write email email copy or ad copy on, like, a really short turnaround where, like, the client just, like, doesn’t care about due process or research. Right? Like, we need five emails and five ads by next week.
But, like, yeah, they they don’t care that it takes x amount of time to do research to the proper, like, mining and all this stuff. Like, they just need it done. So this is what I turned to because the research to generate this type of copy is minimal. It could be done in under an hour, and the results have gotten out of this kind of copy, especially on ads and sales emails that point to, pricing pages or application forms has been awesome. So, yeah, little hack if you have to write ads or emails on a really tight, timeline with kind of a minimum bible research phase.
So sensory dominance hierarchy. So I did a lot of, like, research on this and tried to find, like like, I’ve heard all, like, all these years. Right? Like, engage as many senses as you can and, like but which ones are the most important?
Like, not all senses, like yeah. Not all senses can be created equal. Like, people must be more dominant in a certain sense. And what I found, and I can’t find any sources.
Everyone just says this to be true. And, like, they’re quoting some, like, outdated journals that I’ve never heard of, but, essentially, comes down to seen, like, visual data seems to be the most universally strong and dominant sense followed by sound, so heard, and felt. So these are the three that I’m gonna focus on. Touch, taste, and smell, like, I’m very smell oriented, but for whatever reason, that ranks very low on the hierarchy.
So in my copy, I rarely talk about, like, the scent of a wafting candle in the next room, because yeah. I don’t know. Maybe I should talk more about scent and see who responds to scent. But seen, heard, and felt are the most dominant ones that I found in my research and that I tend to rely on most when it comes to writing copy.
So when when we talk about scene, I mean, literally, like, be seen. Like, where are they at? Place them as a character in a certain environment.
And, like, what they see, give a three hundred sixty degree view. Like, what are they seeing within that scene? What is the visual data that they are processing? So that could be facial cues from people in the room. That could be, like, what they’re seeing on a screen in front of them. It could be markups on a Google Doc if you’re a copywriter.
What is the visual data that they are processing and interpreting?
And with that, we get to see them and their experience. So this is where someone feels seen, when we actually see them where they’re at and see kind of through their eyes what they’re processing, what they’re interpreting, what they’re experiencing.
Next one is heard. So very similar. Like, what are the sounds in their environment? What are they processing auditorily?
So there’s that. And then there’s my favorite, which is their inner sound. Right? Their secret desires, their story making, their inner critic, like, just abusing them with nonsense all the time.
Like, what are they telling themselves? What are they hearing internally?
Then dialogue from key stakeholders. Right? What is their boss saying to them? What does their colleague saying to them?
What does their spouse saying to them? What does their child saying to them? What does their client saying to them? What is the dialogue that is being processed from the outside in?
This really makes good subject lines. I’m gonna show you that in a second in our example.
And when we do this, they get to feel heard in their experience. Right? So we get to mirror back what they’re hearing. We get to mirror back what their internal dialogue is as they interpret that environment, and then we mirror that back, and they get to feel heard almost in the same way as if they had shared that with a therapist.
And then felt is how they are reacting to the visual and the auditory data. Right? So they’re seeing stuff, they’re hearing stuff, and then they’re having an emotional or bodily or somatic reaction to it. So this could be feeling anxious, fearful, angry, sad, betrayed.
It could be somatic, feeling contracted, butterflies, burning with rage, and, essentially, what they are feeling in response to the visual and the auditory data. Is that clear? Like, I’m gonna stop for a second because I just, like, give a lot of information.
Cool.
Cool. Alright. So let’s move on.
Sweet. So your prospect is obviously seeing, hearing, and feeling in response to what they’re seeing and hearing a ton, right, a ton in their daily experience. So how do we choose the ones that are gonna be most effective in mirroring back in our copy? So what I what I essentially, like, bring this down to is moments of heightened receptivity or moment moments of highest tension, which I kinda be as interchangeably right now.
So a moment of heightened receptivity is a moment where your client or prospective client would be most receptive and most responsive to to an offer. So it’s where the stakes and the consequences associated with the problem or the gap are no longer bearable, no longer tolerable, and no longer avoidable. And it’s a very real moment. Right?
It’s a very real moment. Every prospect who has ever invested a good sum of money, right, has had a moment that triggered that purchase or triggered the need to seek a solution and overcome that problem. Almost universally, I haven’t found any case where this hasn’t been true, where there hasn’t been a moment that it could be anchored to where they decided this problem just can’t persist any longer or it’s reached this boiling point and something has to change. So this is a very real moment that your voice of customer and your voice of prospect data should be revealing.
So what I love about voice of prospect data and how I differentiate the two is voice of prospect data is the data you get before they’ve made the purchase. So they’re in that buying decision. They haven’t yet purchased and landed on, the post purchase. Thank you survey.
This isn’t an interview you do after the fact. This is them while they are considering that decision. So the classic, most obvious way to extract this is on a sales or demo call with a very simple opener. Right?
What was happening in your world? What was happening in your life that made you want to book this call? Right? And typically typically, a prospect at this point will give kind of, like, the placeholder that is the entry point to that moment of heightened receptivity, and a really good salesperson is gonna dig deep enough to really paint that picture.
Like, in part of where they were, what they were experiencing, and how that landed for them, and why that feels urgent and important. And I’m gonna walk you through an example, in just a second. So let’s get practical.
Step one is going to be to choose a moment a moment of heightened receptivity from your voice of prospect or your or your voice of customer data.
Step number two would be to take fifteen minutes to fill in that SHF data. So if you do audit sales calls, right, if you do audit demo calls, like, find that moment of heightened receptivity. Like, this is something you could be that could be done in client interviews that you’re relying on that. This is could be something that could be done in auditing sales calls. This is something I’ve even done in taking sales calls for a client. Like, when they had an overflow, I jumped on the phone to literally extract this data myself. So this is something you could get from a very from a variety of sources.
Once you have a moment of heightened receptivity, simply, like, unpack it on these three levels. Right? Like, during a moment of heightened receptivity, what are they seeing? What is in their visual field? What is the data they are interpreting visually?
During a moment of heightened receptivity, what are they hearing? What are the sounds? What is the inner dialogue? What is being said to them? And then finally, how are they reacting to that? So this is, like, a fifteen minute exercise to just really process the information coming out about my moment of heightened recitivy.
And then for that, we could craft an email or an ad.
So let’s look at an example.
Gonna get off this share.
So many windows, so many tabs.
Sweet.
Cool.
So this is one that I wrote for a client in the relationship space. So pulled I pulled the moment of heightened receptivity from the voice of prospect data extracted from a sales call. So this is a loose transcript from the sales call that I pulled it from.
So the salesperson essentially started, you know, what was happening in your life that made you wanna reach out, that made you wanna get on a call.
And this is pretty close to the verbatim that I heard from the conversation. So last night, I found found myself in bed watching Netflix on the iPad, and I effin’ hated it. I hated that I’m so resigned to intimacy even happening with my wife that this is just my routine, and I’ve accepted it and feel like there’s nothing else I can do to change at this point. Right?
So that puts us in a scene. Right? It gives us good data. And then a good salesperson or a good copywriter will ask for elaboration.
Right? So can you tell me more? Then the prospect got a little bit confused. He’s like, what do you mean?
Then the salesperson, like, can you be more specific? So this is a really good follow-up question to ask on sales calls, right, on, customer interviews. Just simple. Can you be more specific?
What were you watching? What was what happened as your wife walked into the room?
And then he elaborated. Like, I found this was funny. Like, I was watching Sons of Anarchy. I’ve never seen Sons of Anarchy, by the way. I don’t even know if it’s a good show.
And my wife came to What are you talking about?
Never seen it.
It’s a good show.
Yeah. I wanna see it now.
A good show. You should watch it. Yeah.
You could be on that. Right? I feel What?
Alright. Maybe.
I’m kidding.
Never seen it. I was watching scent of anarchy, and my wife came into the room, and I barely looked up. Like, very subtle data that communicates so much information about that pain. Right? And I don’t know why. I just felt like I didn’t wanna make eye contact and end up in a thing.
Salesperson, great question here. What kind of thing? Right? Like, what kind of thing? And that the conversation about where our marriage is going.
Is this for frequent conversation? Yeah. And it’s effing exhausting. Right? So this was all extracted in about a minute, a minute and a half of auditing a sales call.
Like, if you were writing an ad or an email for this client, do you think you can write something half decent with just this data?
Right?
Yeah. So other moments of heightened receptivity that I could draw from other emails and ads. Right? So, like, one thing I’ve noticed, there tends to be at least two or three or four, like, really strong moments of heightened receptivity, like, that come up in these types of calls.
Right? This is kind of like the late night argument version of it.
I audited a sales call, right, where he’s like, I downloaded the secret Tinder account, and I’m like, that’s a great subject line. I don’t know if it’s universally relatable, but you get so much good stuff out of just, like, auditing the first few minutes of a sales call. You don’t need to go through the full forty five minutes, hour long, hour and a half where they start getting into the offer specific details. Just hearing what motivated someone to get into a solution seeking state can give you all you need to craft really good emails and really good ads.
Step two, optional as we said. Right? Like, typically, once I have this data, I feel like I could just, like, go to the races and write. I don’t necessarily need to distill it into those three categories. But if you feel like that’s a useful part of your process, definitely take fifteen minutes, watch the scene in your mind’s eye, and just, like, fill in that extra commentary and, like, unpack, like, what are they seeing, what are they hearing, what are they feeling, And engage all three of those, within your email.
Step number three, craft it.
And this is what I love about, like, the what are they hearing, right, within the subject line. Like, where is this going? I think this got, like, one of the highest open rates this client got. Like, where is this going? It’s like those words that just anchor someone right in that scene.
And, yeah, I’ll do a quick read through, and you could just see how pretty much every line is mirroring back either the visual data, the auditory data, or the reaction and the emotional feeling as it relate as it relates to it. So at eight forty nine PM, it may have taken a double round of little blue truck, but you finally got kids to sleep. After a crazy ass day of working and child wrangling, you glance down at your iPhone clock anxiously debating whether you could squeeze whether you should squeeze out some cursory, check the box connection time with your wife or take solo comfort in a mini two episode max sense of anarchy binge vest, falling asleep to a chorus of Ron Perlman and one liners.
You offer Ron’s massive ass mug. He really has a big face. That’s what I noticed in my research. Like, the longest part of writing this email was, like, finding gifts, then realizing how big this man’s face was, and then, like, Googling Ron Perlman Young to see if he always had a big face or if, like, his face enlarged over time.
Manzo’s had a big face. What can you do?
Somehow, he triggered the less than rattling off the day stresses followed by a peck and a turn to the other side of bed that your connection time has become. Right? So all data here, right, of what they’re seeing. Two episode max, substance of anarchy, Ron Perlman, you know, his face, one liners. That’s, like, scene.
You glance down at your iPhone clock. That’s sight. That’s literally what they’re seeing. And then this is the reaction. Right? Anxiously debating whether you should squeeze out some cursory check the box connection time.
So, sight and then the feeling. Right?
We’re mixing in seen, heard, and felt.
Just as your nervous system self soothes to the iconic Netflix ta dum. So we have feeling and we have hearing.
The oak floors creak, that’s hearing. Your wife walks into the room, visual.
You don’t even need to see her face to know it ain’t good feeling. Right? So, like, one sentence, right, or, like, one line has a heard, a scene, NFL.
You barely look up. You know, the moment you do, you’re committing to an agonizing three hour where is this marriage going combo when you played out dozens of times over the last half decade of the guitar script. Then we go into the feeling each time running the same circuit of blame over unmet needs, frustration, over ongoing stagnancy, and errant tossing of emotional grenades over ancient wounds and resentments, or for you both concede to resolution via exhaustion, AKA a temporary peace treat until the next flare up. But this time, it somehow feels different, worse.
Instead of anger, you feel her sadness. Instead of fight, you feel failure, and part of you misses a version of one another that at least fought for your match to survive. It’s as if you’re each waiting for the other to deliver the final death blow, but you can’t say it. You can’t say anything.
You’re uncommitted in both directions, and you’ve been stuck hoping and waiting that your relationship would somehow just revive itself with itself, apply a defibrillator, but it hasn’t. Of course, it hasn’t. And now your wife with sadness in her eyes is asking you, where is this marriage going? Right?
So back to the herd and the same. If you don’t have an answer, that’s a problem. We should talk.
If you have an answer and it’s anything but a clear f, yeah, we’re heading into greater connection, deeper passionate, stronger commitment. That’s a problem. We should talk. If you’re holding so much blame, anger, and hostility that you don’t even want to offer her an answer because you can’t discern what’s even true for you anymore, That’s a problem you should talk. But most of all, if deep down, you know, she deserves the best of you, and there’s just been a wounded part of you unwilling to offer it, but you’re willing to do whatever it takes to step up, show up, and reignite what’s possible for you and your wife, then we got a spot on our account with your name on it. Right. So this is what’s possible, like, in just getting the moment of heightened receptivity.
Like, you don’t need Mattell’s data to write an email that has someone, like, fully seen, heard, and felt in a critical moment of heightened receptivity where they would do anything to solve it. So that’s what I got. Opening to questions, comments, feedback, and up your views if y’all have anything you want feedback on.
Yeah. I oh, go ahead.
I was gonna say, do you have, like, a specific order that you try to get them in?
Because it sounds like you try to rotate them.
Within the email itself?
I like to start I like to start with seen just because, like, it’s a really easy way to anchor them into it.
But other than that, it’s just kind of how I process and play out the scene as I write. But yeah.
Good question. I think starting with site tends to, like, anchor the scene really well.
Yeah. It’s kind of like a stupid comment, but I I’ve had, like, a question in my head for, like, years about because, like, your copy is very specific, and I kind of aim for that standard of, like, specificity.
But then sometimes I feel like my copy is too specific or, like and it’s not working. And I always wondered, like, what’s going on? But I think from doing that, I’ve kind of just sussed it. It’s like, you pick, like, a universal problem, and then you get specificity rather than just doing a specific problem because then it’s like then you can alienate people. If you pick universal problem and then get specific, like, you’re not gonna alienate people. I’m just very pleased I’ve just solved that because I’ve been like, what’s going on here for ages?
Wait. Are you doing that again, Harry? I’m not sure I followed that.
Okay. So, like, choose the universal the universal problem, like, the most common So if you’re, like, surveying mining or something and then you’ve got the problem that comes up the most and then get really specific within that problem rather than just going for, like, a specific problem.
Because then it can feel too specific and then the client could be like, oh, like, people don’t think this. But if you if you choose the general problem and then add specific details and it adds that, like, color and depth.
And it’s isn’t gonna make people think, oh, well because no one’s gonna be like, oh, I don’t watch Sons of Anarchy. That doesn’t, like, apply to me. But they might but if it’s a specific problem that they don’t feel, then you can alienate them. Does that make sense?
I think so.
I mean, why would explain it better?
I I think, like, the simplest way I could put it, right, is, like, any, like, any so the audience for this was, like, men in marriages. Right? And the main problem it fixes is, like, disconnection and numbness. Right?
So it’s like any man who is feeling disconnected and confused and not sure what to do will relate with the man in that scene, right, regardless of the specifics of it, regardless of whether or not he actually, like, sons of anarchy or not. Like, he knows what it’s like to like, there are some details he’ll pick up on. Right? Like, the averting the gaze.
Right? Averting the eye contact is not wanting to engage in that space or not knowing how to. So it’s like yeah. Essentially, he can see himself in that man’s shoes because they share the common ground of the core problem, if that makes sense.
I have another question.
Yep.
So I I think that filling in a lot of these details is possible in a more b to c space. But, again, like, for example, one of I think I brought up this copy a couple of times. This company I’m working with is called Novena. They do AI powered, health care.
Mhmm.
And they’re dealing with, like, health care organization.
Not like a doctor, a nurse, like an office, like the management organizations Mhmm.
Of health care providers.
Like, how do I go about filling in the sensory details in that kind of client when those kind of details are not things that you’ll find on a sales call? And it’s so far removed from my daily life. Like, where do I go without even starting to look for those kind of details?
Right. Like, who is the ultimate, like, decision maker?
Like, of Like, care management groups that, like, deal with health care regulations and, like, payers, insurance, things like that.
Like, they’re managing either hospitals, like, different hospitals and, like, hospital chain or, like, a bunch of, like, a a bunch of physicians that are part of, like, a physician care group.
Yep. Yeah. So, I mean, I’ll acknowledge. Right? Like, there are limitations. You probably can’t tell that same type of story in that context.
Most likely not. Right? Like, I think that you do run into challenges with clients being comfortable with a full on kind of, like, story and immersion into that kind of case.
Where there is where there is, like, clarity on what the, you know, the main purchaser, right, is experiencing as it relates to solving that problem. I think injecting some of those details is is useful. Right? Like, I don’t know what the specific experience is of a moment of heightened receptivity in that buying decision. But if you can even just, like, reflect on, like, what is the tipping point that moves them towards consideration here. Right? Like, is does something actually happen that triggers a we need to fix this or we need to seek a solution here?
Then you can bring that in. Right? Like, in a obviously tone down way, but there’s still probably a moment that triggers a buying decision, likely.
Yes. I think one of the issues, though, is in a lot of really complex b two b solutions, the person who has the pain point is not the person making the decision. So in this case, the doctor is the one feeling the pain because the pain point is they have a lot of patient records to read through before they see a patient. And they don’t have time to go through it all, and they don’t have the, they oftentimes miss important details. But the person buying it is the person managing those positions, and they might have been a position themselves at one point, but now they’re in more of an administrative role.
And so Right.
Yeah. Do they have, like, challenges in managing those positions or serving those positions, like, because of the physician stress? Does it kinda, like, bleed over?
Yeah. So it’s a lot about, like, making sure that they’re getting that they’re they’re having good care and a lot about, like, how they interact with insurance if they’re on more of a value based model, meaning that they’re being paid based on the outcome of the patient as opposed to, just a fixed amount, then they wanna make sure that they are going through all of these records and things like that.
Yeah.
So it’s a lot about being efficient and optimizing workflows and Mhmm. Avoiding time wastage.
Right. And they there’s a cost to them when the physicians are inefficient. Right? Like, some of that moves through. Yeah. So, like, they have yeah.
Patients aren’t being healed. Mhmm. Things like that. I mean, this is just one example, but I Mhmm. Like, it’s also relevant for lots of different examples.
Yeah. So, like, if you could identify, like, you know, the two or three biggest motivators. Right? Like, if it’s, like, inefficiency, for example, inefficiency or, like, reduction of quality of patient care. Right? That’s, like, two of them.
Mhmm.
And if you can almost highlight, like, two or three scenarios for each of those two that they would be hearing, seeing, and feeling, right, like, either as a complaint, right, or a lawsuit or a reduction of billings, like, whatever that translates to. Mhmm. I think that there’d be an opportunity to craft, like, tone down versions of this email around that. Right?
Mhmm. Like, especially if the buyer of this is in contact with the doctor or the physician and maybe the physician is communicating some of that stress to them, and they don’t have a solution to it, right, other than, like, keep going. Right? Like, do your best.
Right? Like, I don’t know how that plays out.
Mhmm. But I can only imagine there are stressful scenarios for both the buyer and the position they serve here. Right? And, like, just highlighting some of those without being too excessive in the scene painting, could go a long way.
Okay. Yeah. I mean, I definitely include those kind of elements. But, like, I wish I could include more sensory details, like, bring in what the office looks like or who they’re meeting with. And I just I am so far removed from that world.
I Mhmm.
Would be embarrassed to even venture a guess. Especially, like, I remember when I was working in house, like, I would collect these anecdotes, like, after over a long period of how like, over six to twelve months, you could collect a lot of anecdotes to sort of create that picture in your head.
Mhmm.
But, like, if you’re just going into a project, it’s hard to sort of absorb that in an organic way.
Yeah. Understandable.
Is there kind of, like, a standard system that they use, like, visually? Like, are things being processed through, like, you know, a common system? Like, where things are signaled as being inefficient or, like, how do they know something’s inefficient other than, like, the feeling of it?
Like, is it in the reduced billings and a report at the end of the month?
Like Yeah.
Yeah.
There would be issues with payments and Mhmm.
Doctors would be burned out. That’s a big one. Doctors would not wanna there there would be a lot of turnover.
So so, like, a missed payment, like, that’s where I would dig. Like, what is, like, what is the experience of a missed payment? Is, like, an is it an email notification from, like, x payment processor system? Like and they get that on their phone or they get that, like, at the office, and then they have to like, that would be a moment, for example.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
So yeah. Sometimes. So yeah. Obviously, like, obviously, like, familiarity and the more conversations you have with it, the easier it gets. And there are certain limitations when, like, you’re newer to that world and not a lot of people are interacting with you about these details, and there’s not a lot of opportunity to get them.
Mhmm.
But, yeah, where where you do have the ability to, like, ask those probing questions. Right? Like, so much can come out of it. Right?
Like, what does that what does inefficiency actually look like? What does that moment it signals to you? Right? Like, and have you feel in that moment.
Yeah. I love the idea of the notification on your phone. I just like, the client is also a marketer, and so Yep. They’re not as familiar with it.
And Mhmm. These people are pretty high up in their career ladder, so they’re not, like, people who would be really readily available to just casually jump on a call. And customer success is not always willing to let you jump on a call with them. Right.
So but, like, I like that idea, but I feel like I might have to find other sources to sort of validate that kind of language.
Right.
Yeah. I would start with, like, what’s most within reach. I think, like, the visual would would be the easiest. Right?
Because you don’t really need to go too deep into their personal experience of how did you react to that. Like, you can kind of fill in the gaps. Right? Like, if they’re getting a notification of a missed payment or whatever, like, it’s a pretty universal experience of how that feels, right, to the end user.
So, yeah, just, like, get that data. Right? Like, are they checking it on their phone, on their lunch break, and that pings them? Like, does that warrant a conversation with, like, the office manager or the head phys like, I don’t know enough about that industry to fill in those gaps, but, yeah, I feel like, some light digging might yield some pretty cool results.
Okay.
Cool. Jessica, I see your hand up.
I was just getting in line for a copy review, if that’s okay.
Yeah. That’s cool.
For sure. Any other questions about the topic before we jump into Jessica’s review?
Sweet. I think that means you’re up.
Okay.
So, Ry, I don’t I don’t know, if you’ve heard, but I was kinda shifting. You know, I was focusing on seasonal sales, holiday sales?
Mhmm.
Yeah. Red thread. Okay. So as that kind of, was explored deeper, I redid my home page, all the things, then it kinda became more of a helping ecommerce brands on the either other side of the discount.
Like, once they’ve acquired a client through a discount, what do we do? Because we can’t may we can’t create loyalty with a discount. Right? Mhmm.
And so and then it kinda became, the phrase for my, hopefully, future podcast newsletters, ditch the discount. And not to say never do discounts, but be more strategic.
Mhmm.
And so but my big thing is I’d like to build, ideally, a more email funnel, SMS funnel, service package through, you know, the intensive Joe’s teaching, the standardized project and the retainer. So my goal is to create, like, the email program audit, and that’s what I’ve actually done for a couple brands now, and then retainer being the optimization, especially of their flows. So just so you kind of have context of what I’m kinda building now. And Abby kind of helped me through my home page website.
And, I just that’s what I wanna share. And, Naomi, by the way, I was just saying, I I believe that you’ve done interviews. I was just saying that that for me, when I was working at my my Utilizer, that was where I got all my stuff. I didn’t mean to say you weren’t doing it. That was that was just my comment. Okay. So, anyway, here’s my home page.
Yes, please feel free to be as brutal as whatever. But the ultimate I don’t know. We did, like, a fast rewrite, and I just I walked away going, well, it’s better than my seasonal sale focused version, but I still don’t think as I go through it. I’m like, do they know what I do? Do they know what the next step like, I’m I really stripped back. I took my services page off and all that, and I just really wanna focus on let’s optimize the home page, and then I’ll go from there. So that’s kind of what I’m looking for is help with making this better so that they know what I do and know the next step, which would be a call with me, essentially.
Cool. Alright.
Let’s go through it.
Sweet. DTC and ecommerce brands. I’ll read in my head so it’s not annoying.
If anyone has a comment as I go through this, feel free to just jump in.
Do you have a picture of yourself where you’re facing to the right? Because I feel like if you had well, I think number one, if this image was slightly larger, it might feel a little bit more balanced because I feel like there’s a lot of empty space here at the top.
Or maybe even if the text was on the left and the picture’s on the right.
Because I feel like having the text in the middle and the picture on the right feels a little bit imbalanced because the empty space on the left.
So that might help make it a little bit more like, fill up the space more.
Did you catch that, Jess?
I did. I’m just it’s cool. Yeah. I I appreciate that. Know that it’s not really, it’s funny that you bring that up because Abby and I Abby, was that not on the left side of the thing the person you’re like, And we were like, yeah.
It’s better than the central. But the problem also is me figuring out Squarespace and spacing. Because if you put this on a different size window or on a different, a different device, you will see something almost totally different. So, yeah, I know that, but it’s it’s not my priority right now.
But, yeah, I mean, it’s on the notes of things to do eventually. I’m sure.
Yeah. I mean, I think the text is fine in the middle. It just with the image. It might need a maybe maybe just leave the image off.
Yeah. Just a lot.
So it’s your, like, ideal client over five million?
Yeah. That was, that’s kind of what I found is that if they don’t make at least five million in annual revenue, it’s it’s not an ideal client who would invest in me.
Cool.
Jessica, this is I know, like, it’s really difficult because we’ve we’ve just kind of been guessing that, like, for a client over five million, like, do they still want more sales? Is that still, like, the thing that they want?
Like, it it seems like a really silly question, but I don’t know. I’m just wondering now with the like, you want more like, you need more sales. Like, is that is that still what they’re trying to to do?
Like As opposed to what?
Exactly. I don’t know. Like, to build more profit, more profitability. I don’t know.
Well, we said sales. I think you and I talked about changing it, but, I mean, ultimately, the biggest challenge with this group that I’ve interacted with and then done, of course, more research on is, that email channel specifically is not generating the revenue they feel it should Mhmm. And especially from the flows. Like, I’ve heard I’ve had a a client and then a couple leads and then just researched their where usually, they can’t this big shocker, their campaigns, they’re not too unhappy with their campaigns because guess what they lead with, a discount, or it’s a holiday or whatever.
But it’s their flows, their automation.
Leave it that then, like, rather than needing more sales? Because I guess if they need more sales, they can just, like, increase the ad spend if they’re at, like, five million or whatever. Maybe just maybe lead with, like, literally what you just said about the email flows. I don’t know.
And I know this is really annoying because I’ve we’ve been over the phase together, and I’m adding something new. But I just missed that bit about over the five million mark, and now I’m yeah. I don’t know. I’m just curious.
You might be able to talk about scaling because meeting sales means like, in my mind, that means, well, I’m desperate for sales where once you get to a certain point, it’s not that you desperately need them. It’s that you’re looking to put things on autopilot. You’re looking to make things more efficient. You’re looking to optimize things. So it’s wanting more scale wanting more sales, but wanting them, in a way that’s scalable.
No. I think that’s that that’s a great how does that hit with you, Ry? Because I definitely saw, the word scale, scaling, and the other versions of it in, VOC research.
Mhmm.
So why does that hit you with opening that as opposed to just generally the word sales?
Scaling is stronger than more sales, I think, for this audience, especially if you’re really targeting people who are already over five million, and they’re probably looking to scale sustainably.
Right? And the margins are a really big part of that, I’m guessing.
Like, would that be accurate?
Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yep.
I think so so that’s one way to lead in. Another way to lead in would be, like, obviously, like, this pain point. So it’s like, how strong is the pain point in their VOC of, like, the discounting? Is it something that they really, really hate and it’s a necessary evil, or is it something that you think they hate? Like, how much are they talking about, like, dreading discounting?
Oh, that’s a really good point.
Like, I know you hate discounts for them. Right? But how much are they like like let’s say, like, it’s Monday morning after their, like, Mother’s Day promotion. Right? Yeah. And they’re putting the numbers on the screen, like and it was, like, great sales volume, like, poor margins. Are they complaining about the margins there, or are they just happy with the volume?
Like So the meetings I’ve been in on, it’s celebrate celebrate the win of whatever was the latest promotion.
Mhmm.
And then it it almost in between the promotions is talking about retention.
So, like, we talk about cause. We talk about that a little bit maybe in the in betweens.
But when we’re talking about post sale Mhmm.
It’s pretty rare that I’m in on a Trevani a long time. It was pretty rare that you’d come off of a a promotion and go, oh, crap.
But how are we gonna keep these people? And, they were they didn’t seem to be obsessing about the discount. They were celebrating either the win or the not, I guess, the not.
Mhmm. Yeah.
I didn’t So yeah.
And it’s an important note. Right? Like Yeah. With that that retention, like and without, like, actually getting nondiscounted sales after that customer’s been acquired, like, they’re not gonna grow. Right?
Right.
One thing comes to mind is, like, a really kind of more of an unconventional format as a headline. Like, you could take it or leave it that might capture that. Right? It’s like what was it?
You know, great news. Like, great news. Our, yeah, great news. Our mother can’t mother to stay campaign crushed, you know, bringing in over x.
Bad news. Our margins were thinner than a next gen iPad. New app. Right?
Now we got now what what now what do we gotta do? Essentially, like, be the third one, which is, like, how do we increase our LTV? How do we retain them? How do we get repeat sales at higher margins? Right? Like, if that’s the scenario you fix of, like, they’re flush full of, like, new customers that have been discounted.
The margins are thin. They’re aware of it, and now they have this opportunity of needing to maximize, right, repeat purchases, nondiscounted purchases, and the email flows that support it. Like, I think that could be a really cool way to drop into the conversation.
So how would you because that’s always been a disconnect for me is making sure it’s really clear that when I talk about that, that I then is it clear? Or how do I make it clear that and the solution is your email and SMS marketing, not basically any like, I’m not gonna do ads. We’re not gonna talk. I’m not I’m not gonna do I’m not diving back into the ads. So is that how do I make sure that connection is clear?
I mean, it’s clear here.
Okay. Alright.
Mhmm. Okay. Good email strategy and conversion copy.
Email strategy and conversion copy. I mean, I maybe have SMS here, right, if that’s a big part of what you do and a big part of what they know they need.
Yeah. Okay.
SMS may mean more to them than conversion copy. I’m not sure.
Like Mhmm.
Good point.
That creates repeat customers so you can boost your revenue. Do you have, like, special IP names for your, like, email frameworks or your SMS flows?
Or No.
I did for my seasonal sales, but, no, I haven’t created something. But I that’s a great you’re right. I need that.
What would you do with it since you were thinking of it?
Oh, I mean, I would just, like, note that here. Right? Like, if you had a different term for email strategy or a different term for, like like, ex SMS type flow. Right? Like, your branded SMS flow. Right?
Okay.
Like, it would be too much of a mouthful to say, like, post discount purchase SMS flows. Right? Like, I don’t know. But I think, like, what I’m hearing you do, right, is, like, you maximize everything out of these discounted customers. Right? And you do that. So it is kind of like a post seasonal sale strategy.
Is that correct?
Yeah. It’s the, yes. Exact yeah. Either seasonal sale or some form of a promotion, but yeah.
So that moment of heightened for them really is, like, analyzing their seasonal sales data, being hyped about, you know, you know, the top line kind of meh about the margins and our team, let’s maximize it. Like, I would really enter the conversation there and then talk about how you fit into that post seasonal sales flow.
Okay. Yeah. Because it really anchors it to a very specific use case. Right? Like, you’ve had this win, now you have this opportunity. Right? Or you’ve had this win, this is what you sacrificed to get the win, but this is how you make it up and then some.
Okay.
Wait. Can I have a I have a question? How how focused are they on the margins?
Because I know, like like, if you’re I I don’t know anything about ecommerce, but I know in SaaS, like, there was a big, big shift when the market crashed when, like, twenty twenty one, the only thing anyone talked about was growth, and no one could possibly care about how much marketers were spending.
And now the only thing everyone cares about is profitability.
But if you had said like, if I were to say you should hire me because I’ll help you make your campaigns more efficient, like, no one would care.
But, like, if that’s the case, then it would be more help like, my strategy would be to go in and, like, introduce a little bit of doubt. Like, try to start by almost waking them up to the problem.
Like, what, like, you’re you’re celebrating these wins. That’s what you said. But there’s, like, a creeping doubt in the back of your mind that this growth is is not as profitable as it could be or this growth is happening only because, you’re putting a lot of money into it.
Is that clear? No? Yes?
I think I’m pausing before I respond because I’m thinking about what you just said. Yes. Profitability and, profit margins are important to ecommerce for sure. It’s also why I can’t work with certain brands because the the profit margins are just too too small.
So, yeah, I mean, that’s definitely a conversation.
At the top of their mind, or are they just, like, celebrating these wins and not thinking about the margins?
No. If there if there’s someone at the level that I’m speaking to, yeah, they’re paying attention to it.
Okay. Makes sense.
Do you have, like, data even if it’s, like, an estimate of, like, the average profit margin of your ideal client and, like, where they’d like to be? Or is it or does it vary too much from company to company?
I don’t think I have a no. I don’t have a well, obviously, I’m pausing. So, no, I don’t have that a solid statistic. But you’re that’s a good point.
Mhmm.
Yeah. I don’t think you need to define it. Right? I think, like, as as long as you call it out, right, like, you have a win of your volume, you have an l, right, and the margins you had to accept by discounting, and now you have an opportunity to make up for it and experience, like, true growth. Right? Mhmm. Yep.
So, like, I think that’s I think that’s the sales argument. Because when you really think about, like, what your ideal client is experiencing, like, what is true about them? They are experiencing a win in volume sales, right, from discounting, and they’re experiencing the need for, yeah. Exactly what you do. Right? More sales, nondiscounted.
K.
Cool.
Your email list isn’t responding to your discount heavy designed heavy emails.
So depending on what you do with the headline, right, like, it may change Oh, yeah.
The section. Yeah.
It’s yeah. It’s gonna change.
Mhmm. Cool.
But the tough part for me on that one is, that is directly from an ideal client. But yeah.
I mean, that’s why they invested so big. It was our email channel. We figured out the ads game. We’ve figured out the other stuff.
Our email channel is not generating the revenue it should, and we’re tired of leaning on our discounts and our image pretty images. And we wanna go and they were the ones who said, like, copy first. And, you know, so it was and it’s a nine figure plus business, pet meds. I mean, it was just that was from an ideal client is, like, guessing.
Yeah.
Yeah. So it depends on the conversation you wanna have. Right? Like, it depends on, like, how you wanna orient the sales conversation based on why you feel they would hire you.
Like, this definitely makes sense in a broader context.
And if we’re and if we’re gonna operate from, like, the conversation of, like, you’ve had a win, You accept it, and now now let’s make good on it. Then I would continue the conversation on you could agitate it. Right? That could be an option. Or you can move straight into, like, your process of of, like, you know, making good on what do we do after you’ve had a boatload of sales from your discounted push. Right? Yeah.
And then kind of bridge into Oh god.
Don’t worry. I hate that section. Hate that section.
Alright.
Well, we like, Farna’s whatever lesson, and I hate the intro of that.
Now now I can’t not read it. You understand?
It’s the first lines. But, hey. You’re here. I’m am here. Like, who the hell talk like that? I don’t talk like that. Like, stupid.
Am I right? Am I right? Yeah.
This is oh, painful. I can’t even stand you’re looking at it and recording this.
It’s on the record.
Jess wrote, am I right? Record.
Like, you should unlock a badge for the usage of am I right? Like, unlock a new level. Hey. Hey, Sam. Sam’s eyes. What is those eyes?
Like He has piercing eyes.
They’re Actually, when he’s not smiling.
How did you get a testimony from Sam? I didn’t know you had that.
The intensive.
Gotcha. Nice.
Thank you, Andrew, for the comment. I appreciate that.
Cool. Does that give you some enough insight for today, like, to work with and to consider?
Yeah. That’s fine. That’s great.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Thank you all. I appreciate it.
Cool. Cool.
Alright. We are at the hour. So if anyone has to jump off, that is totally cool. Does anyone have any questions or things they urgently needed reviewed?
If so, I’m happy to stick around. So, hi, Andrew.
Could I ask one Oh, oh, oh, you’re I thought you were waving goodbye.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah.
Can I ask one question? You need to keep it running on if not.
But, yeah. So, this is kind of touching back on what we were talking about before, and there was, I think Abby wrote in chat, you know, she wrote, this is why I hate writing for SaaS. How do how do you add dollar and d m l to optimizing workflows?
And so that’s, like, my whole, that’s, like, everything I work with is b to b SaaS and tends to be, like, really technical products, like, data heavy stuff where all the people buying it have, like, data in their title and stuff like that. Mhmm. And something that I struggle with is that as I’m researching the the client, like, all of their materials are written in this, like, very academic language. Everything is optimized, accelerate analytic productivity, this and that. And as I research, I find myself almost getting, like, sucked into that a little bit. And at some point, I go, oh, I get why they came up with this because this is, like, the most accurate summary of what it is. Right?
And they couldn’t they couldn’t find out what it wasn’t a human and specific way to say that that’s, like, completely accurate or something like that.
So I I guess I’m just wondering if you have any tips for how to, not drink the client my client’s Kool Aid. And and then the other thing is that the BOC is like that too because then they go, okay. We really wanna try to, like Mhmm. Like, even the voice of the customer is not always very human.
How to not drink the client’s Kool Aid. I mean, I’ve I’ve drank the client’s Kool Aid and then hated whatever and after the fact. It’s really convincing. Right? Because they’re so authoritative in their Kool Aid, and they’re serving a bit Kool Aid.
So I think, like, the most practical thing I could offer, right, is to not necessarily try to, like, rewrite every aspect of the offer and what it does in more human language, but, like, choose a very specific scenario in which the use case is, like, needed, like, when they know they have the problem. Right? So it’s like like, I mean, taking the example. I know, obviously, like, coaching is very different from SaaS.
Right? But, like, is there a moment when they their workflows were broken? Is there a moment when a project fell through the cracks? Like, if you’re selling project management software, right, it’s like, you know, what are they hearing?
Like, is this done yet? Like, question mark. Like, where is this? Question mark. Like, what is a product manager saying as a follow-up, and then what’s the oh, shit moment?
Right? So it’s like you’re not gonna be able to necessarily capture the entire marketing message, but can you capture a moment in which the software you’re selling would be a solve for it. Right? And just, like, see if that hits and if that resonates, especially on the email or the ad level.
Yeah. That that works. Yeah. That works. And I’ve seen it done well. So I yeah.
Yeah. The email and the ad level are, like, the easiest places to try to, like, weave this in and test it out. Obviously, obviously, landing pages and sales pages that are more static are more difficult.
So, yeah, I I like testing things out in email and ad scenarios where, like, yeah, you have a little bit more leeway.
Cool. Good job. Alright. Thank you.
Sorry to hear that.
Wait. Can I ask one more question, please?
Yeah. Of course.
I meant to ask this earlier, and I totally forgot. What I really like that you do, you do such a good job of coming up with, like, metaphors, And I forgot the one in the example.
Automatic or self operating defibrillator, I think, was Oh, yeah. Was when you Self self applied defibrillator.
Yeah.
And there was another one that you used. I don’t even remember the email. It was ages ago that I read it, and you used the phrase diabetic fruit fly to describe, like, a computer charger, like an old computer. And, like, that I don’t even remember what the rest of the email was about, but that phrase stuck with me. And I haven’t been able to come up with metaphors that are, like, kitschy like that, but, like, actually descriptive and not over the top.
I was wondering if you have, like, how you come up with those, if you have a process or Gosh.
Like, I I have a process for, like, not writing white noisy ones. Right? Like, I do have an aversion to, like, if I write a metaphor the first time and I’m like, I’ve seen that a million times before, like, I will, like, not include that intentionally.
How to come up with the good ones, like so there there’s an orientation towards, like I wanna put something on the page that no one’s read before, like, a combination or a string of words that no one’s read before, and there’s a really real strategic reason. Right? That is reader engagement. That’s some kind of, like, being tuned in to the message. And Right. So, like, how do I actually come up with them?
Just kinda like my brain works in a really strange way. It’s like, I don’t know why I’m thinking of diabetic fruit flies. I really don’t. Like, I’m concerned that my brain goes there.
I used to read so many screenplays, and, like, screenwriters get really crafty in describing scenes.
Like like and you could probably still find a lot of screen screenplays out there. Like and I wouldn’t read classic ones. I’d read the ones from, like, up and coming writers. Right?
Like, I think the blacklist is, like, a really good source for that. I don’t know if it still exists, but, like, yeah, that’s typically where I picked up, like, language patterning is because, like, they’re trying to impress agents. They’re trying to be interesting. They’re trying to be engaging.
Right? And they just come up with, like, really cool and interesting ways of saying things, and it just kind of repatterns, you know, how I think about things at least.
But, yeah, I’d say, like, there’s an intentional orientation around not being white noisy, not being boring, challenging certain ways of saying things. And sometimes that happens on the first pass. Sometimes that comes when I’m rereading it a second or third time and be like, this would be a cool way of saying that. So yeah.
I wish there was a formula. Maybe there is a formula, and I just haven’t discovered it yet.
Maybe I’ll try reading more screenplays.
Yeah.
Cool.
Struggle bus. Gosh. I’ve never talked about the struggle bus.
Ton every sales page for entrepreneurs. Yeah. It’s true.
Cool. Awesome. Any other, questions, comments, or we’re feeling good and complete for today?
Awesome. Well, thanks for your time, everybody. Catch you all soon. Take care.
Thanks, Roy. See you.
Bye,
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
This is part three. Wrapping it up. And as I was, like, writing part three, I was trying to think of, like, the best trilogies in movie history.
Like I don’t know. What’s the best trilogy? Was, like, Batman a trilogy?
Yeah. That’s three. Yeah.
Pretty solid trilogy. Home Alone? Is that a trilogy?
Lord of the Rings.
Lord of the Rings, actually.
Lord of the Rings.
Yeah. That that is probably the best trilogy of all time. Yes. Agreed.
That’s where my mind went.
Yep.
Sweet. So, this is the third and final installment of DeepCraft and our authority, and this one’s all about how to use the scene, heard, felt framework to reveal pain, highlight natural urgency, and compel action. So as a recap, part one, which we did in February, there should be a replay somewhere, was all about deep voice of customer data, how to use three piercing questions to go beneath the surface and extract rich insight that your customers aren’t saying but want to say but don’t have the words to say, and you get to say them in your copy. Part two was shadow copy, how to balance virtuous and forbidden desire to elicit your prospects full range of the app. Yeah. I need this.
And then I think in April, we took a break and did something else, and now we’re wrapping up the trilogy. So recap. The inner authority is one who knows the prospect better than they know themselves, exposes, and illuminates that which the prospect is unable or unwilling to articulate or divulge, build stress and resonance through the whole damn, are you in my head phenomenon.
Four, make sure their one reader is fully fully seen, heard, felt on the page, or at least more seen and felt than any other competitor is willing or able to see them. So best way to make your prospect feel, seen, heard, and felt is to literally see, hear, and feel them.
So the mostly driven direct response copy will engage as many senses as they can to generate a reaction that moves a prospect towards action.
And we do this by painting scenes, like, literally seeing them, hearing, and feeling them in a very specific moment or type of moment that we’re gonna talk about in a second.
So before I get into all that, this is one of my all time favorite copy hacks. I guess I’ll call it a copy hack.
Especially if I’m getting tasked to write email email copy or ad copy on, like, a really short turnaround where, like, the client just, like, doesn’t care about due process or research. Right? Like, we need five emails and five ads by next week.
But, like, yeah, they they don’t care that it takes x amount of time to do research to the proper, like, mining and all this stuff. Like, they just need it done. So this is what I turned to because the research to generate this type of copy is minimal. It could be done in under an hour, and the results have gotten out of this kind of copy, especially on ads and sales emails that point to, pricing pages or application forms has been awesome. So, yeah, little hack if you have to write ads or emails on a really tight, timeline with kind of a minimum bible research phase.
So sensory dominance hierarchy. So I did a lot of, like, research on this and tried to find, like like, I’ve heard all, like, all these years. Right? Like, engage as many senses as you can and, like but which ones are the most important?
Like, not all senses, like yeah. Not all senses can be created equal. Like, people must be more dominant in a certain sense. And what I found, and I can’t find any sources.
Everyone just says this to be true. And, like, they’re quoting some, like, outdated journals that I’ve never heard of, but, essentially, comes down to seen, like, visual data seems to be the most universally strong and dominant sense followed by sound, so heard, and felt. So these are the three that I’m gonna focus on. Touch, taste, and smell, like, I’m very smell oriented, but for whatever reason, that ranks very low on the hierarchy.
So in my copy, I rarely talk about, like, the scent of a wafting candle in the next room, because yeah. I don’t know. Maybe I should talk more about scent and see who responds to scent. But seen, heard, and felt are the most dominant ones that I found in my research and that I tend to rely on most when it comes to writing copy.
So when when we talk about scene, I mean, literally, like, be seen. Like, where are they at? Place them as a character in a certain environment.
And, like, what they see, give a three hundred sixty degree view. Like, what are they seeing within that scene? What is the visual data that they are processing? So that could be facial cues from people in the room. That could be, like, what they’re seeing on a screen in front of them. It could be markups on a Google Doc if you’re a copywriter.
What is the visual data that they are processing and interpreting?
And with that, we get to see them and their experience. So this is where someone feels seen, when we actually see them where they’re at and see kind of through their eyes what they’re processing, what they’re interpreting, what they’re experiencing.
Next one is heard. So very similar. Like, what are the sounds in their environment? What are they processing auditorily?
So there’s that. And then there’s my favorite, which is their inner sound. Right? Their secret desires, their story making, their inner critic, like, just abusing them with nonsense all the time.
Like, what are they telling themselves? What are they hearing internally?
Then dialogue from key stakeholders. Right? What is their boss saying to them? What does their colleague saying to them?
What does their spouse saying to them? What does their child saying to them? What does their client saying to them? What is the dialogue that is being processed from the outside in?
This really makes good subject lines. I’m gonna show you that in a second in our example.
And when we do this, they get to feel heard in their experience. Right? So we get to mirror back what they’re hearing. We get to mirror back what their internal dialogue is as they interpret that environment, and then we mirror that back, and they get to feel heard almost in the same way as if they had shared that with a therapist.
And then felt is how they are reacting to the visual and the auditory data. Right? So they’re seeing stuff, they’re hearing stuff, and then they’re having an emotional or bodily or somatic reaction to it. So this could be feeling anxious, fearful, angry, sad, betrayed.
It could be somatic, feeling contracted, butterflies, burning with rage, and, essentially, what they are feeling in response to the visual and the auditory data. Is that clear? Like, I’m gonna stop for a second because I just, like, give a lot of information.
Cool.
Cool. Alright. So let’s move on.
Sweet. So your prospect is obviously seeing, hearing, and feeling in response to what they’re seeing and hearing a ton, right, a ton in their daily experience. So how do we choose the ones that are gonna be most effective in mirroring back in our copy? So what I what I essentially, like, bring this down to is moments of heightened receptivity or moment moments of highest tension, which I kinda be as interchangeably right now.
So a moment of heightened receptivity is a moment where your client or prospective client would be most receptive and most responsive to to an offer. So it’s where the stakes and the consequences associated with the problem or the gap are no longer bearable, no longer tolerable, and no longer avoidable. And it’s a very real moment. Right?
It’s a very real moment. Every prospect who has ever invested a good sum of money, right, has had a moment that triggered that purchase or triggered the need to seek a solution and overcome that problem. Almost universally, I haven’t found any case where this hasn’t been true, where there hasn’t been a moment that it could be anchored to where they decided this problem just can’t persist any longer or it’s reached this boiling point and something has to change. So this is a very real moment that your voice of customer and your voice of prospect data should be revealing.
So what I love about voice of prospect data and how I differentiate the two is voice of prospect data is the data you get before they’ve made the purchase. So they’re in that buying decision. They haven’t yet purchased and landed on, the post purchase. Thank you survey.
This isn’t an interview you do after the fact. This is them while they are considering that decision. So the classic, most obvious way to extract this is on a sales or demo call with a very simple opener. Right?
What was happening in your world? What was happening in your life that made you want to book this call? Right? And typically typically, a prospect at this point will give kind of, like, the placeholder that is the entry point to that moment of heightened receptivity, and a really good salesperson is gonna dig deep enough to really paint that picture.
Like, in part of where they were, what they were experiencing, and how that landed for them, and why that feels urgent and important. And I’m gonna walk you through an example, in just a second. So let’s get practical.
Step one is going to be to choose a moment a moment of heightened receptivity from your voice of prospect or your or your voice of customer data.
Step number two would be to take fifteen minutes to fill in that SHF data. So if you do audit sales calls, right, if you do audit demo calls, like, find that moment of heightened receptivity. Like, this is something you could be that could be done in client interviews that you’re relying on that. This is could be something that could be done in auditing sales calls. This is something I’ve even done in taking sales calls for a client. Like, when they had an overflow, I jumped on the phone to literally extract this data myself. So this is something you could get from a very from a variety of sources.
Once you have a moment of heightened receptivity, simply, like, unpack it on these three levels. Right? Like, during a moment of heightened receptivity, what are they seeing? What is in their visual field? What is the data they are interpreting visually?
During a moment of heightened receptivity, what are they hearing? What are the sounds? What is the inner dialogue? What is being said to them? And then finally, how are they reacting to that? So this is, like, a fifteen minute exercise to just really process the information coming out about my moment of heightened recitivy.
And then for that, we could craft an email or an ad.
So let’s look at an example.
Gonna get off this share.
So many windows, so many tabs.
Sweet.
Cool.
So this is one that I wrote for a client in the relationship space. So pulled I pulled the moment of heightened receptivity from the voice of prospect data extracted from a sales call. So this is a loose transcript from the sales call that I pulled it from.
So the salesperson essentially started, you know, what was happening in your life that made you wanna reach out, that made you wanna get on a call.
And this is pretty close to the verbatim that I heard from the conversation. So last night, I found found myself in bed watching Netflix on the iPad, and I effin’ hated it. I hated that I’m so resigned to intimacy even happening with my wife that this is just my routine, and I’ve accepted it and feel like there’s nothing else I can do to change at this point. Right?
So that puts us in a scene. Right? It gives us good data. And then a good salesperson or a good copywriter will ask for elaboration.
Right? So can you tell me more? Then the prospect got a little bit confused. He’s like, what do you mean?
Then the salesperson, like, can you be more specific? So this is a really good follow-up question to ask on sales calls, right, on, customer interviews. Just simple. Can you be more specific?
What were you watching? What was what happened as your wife walked into the room?
And then he elaborated. Like, I found this was funny. Like, I was watching Sons of Anarchy. I’ve never seen Sons of Anarchy, by the way. I don’t even know if it’s a good show.
And my wife came to What are you talking about?
Never seen it.
It’s a good show.
Yeah. I wanna see it now.
A good show. You should watch it. Yeah.
You could be on that. Right? I feel What?
Alright. Maybe.
I’m kidding.
Never seen it. I was watching scent of anarchy, and my wife came into the room, and I barely looked up. Like, very subtle data that communicates so much information about that pain. Right? And I don’t know why. I just felt like I didn’t wanna make eye contact and end up in a thing.
Salesperson, great question here. What kind of thing? Right? Like, what kind of thing? And that the conversation about where our marriage is going.
Is this for frequent conversation? Yeah. And it’s effing exhausting. Right? So this was all extracted in about a minute, a minute and a half of auditing a sales call.
Like, if you were writing an ad or an email for this client, do you think you can write something half decent with just this data?
Right?
Yeah. So other moments of heightened receptivity that I could draw from other emails and ads. Right? So, like, one thing I’ve noticed, there tends to be at least two or three or four, like, really strong moments of heightened receptivity, like, that come up in these types of calls.
Right? This is kind of like the late night argument version of it.
I audited a sales call, right, where he’s like, I downloaded the secret Tinder account, and I’m like, that’s a great subject line. I don’t know if it’s universally relatable, but you get so much good stuff out of just, like, auditing the first few minutes of a sales call. You don’t need to go through the full forty five minutes, hour long, hour and a half where they start getting into the offer specific details. Just hearing what motivated someone to get into a solution seeking state can give you all you need to craft really good emails and really good ads.
Step two, optional as we said. Right? Like, typically, once I have this data, I feel like I could just, like, go to the races and write. I don’t necessarily need to distill it into those three categories. But if you feel like that’s a useful part of your process, definitely take fifteen minutes, watch the scene in your mind’s eye, and just, like, fill in that extra commentary and, like, unpack, like, what are they seeing, what are they hearing, what are they feeling, And engage all three of those, within your email.
Step number three, craft it.
And this is what I love about, like, the what are they hearing, right, within the subject line. Like, where is this going? I think this got, like, one of the highest open rates this client got. Like, where is this going? It’s like those words that just anchor someone right in that scene.
And, yeah, I’ll do a quick read through, and you could just see how pretty much every line is mirroring back either the visual data, the auditory data, or the reaction and the emotional feeling as it relate as it relates to it. So at eight forty nine PM, it may have taken a double round of little blue truck, but you finally got kids to sleep. After a crazy ass day of working and child wrangling, you glance down at your iPhone clock anxiously debating whether you could squeeze whether you should squeeze out some cursory, check the box connection time with your wife or take solo comfort in a mini two episode max sense of anarchy binge vest, falling asleep to a chorus of Ron Perlman and one liners.
You offer Ron’s massive ass mug. He really has a big face. That’s what I noticed in my research. Like, the longest part of writing this email was, like, finding gifts, then realizing how big this man’s face was, and then, like, Googling Ron Perlman Young to see if he always had a big face or if, like, his face enlarged over time.
Manzo’s had a big face. What can you do?
Somehow, he triggered the less than rattling off the day stresses followed by a peck and a turn to the other side of bed that your connection time has become. Right? So all data here, right, of what they’re seeing. Two episode max, substance of anarchy, Ron Perlman, you know, his face, one liners. That’s, like, scene.
You glance down at your iPhone clock. That’s sight. That’s literally what they’re seeing. And then this is the reaction. Right? Anxiously debating whether you should squeeze out some cursory check the box connection time.
So, sight and then the feeling. Right?
We’re mixing in seen, heard, and felt.
Just as your nervous system self soothes to the iconic Netflix ta dum. So we have feeling and we have hearing.
The oak floors creak, that’s hearing. Your wife walks into the room, visual.
You don’t even need to see her face to know it ain’t good feeling. Right? So, like, one sentence, right, or, like, one line has a heard, a scene, NFL.
You barely look up. You know, the moment you do, you’re committing to an agonizing three hour where is this marriage going combo when you played out dozens of times over the last half decade of the guitar script. Then we go into the feeling each time running the same circuit of blame over unmet needs, frustration, over ongoing stagnancy, and errant tossing of emotional grenades over ancient wounds and resentments, or for you both concede to resolution via exhaustion, AKA a temporary peace treat until the next flare up. But this time, it somehow feels different, worse.
Instead of anger, you feel her sadness. Instead of fight, you feel failure, and part of you misses a version of one another that at least fought for your match to survive. It’s as if you’re each waiting for the other to deliver the final death blow, but you can’t say it. You can’t say anything.
You’re uncommitted in both directions, and you’ve been stuck hoping and waiting that your relationship would somehow just revive itself with itself, apply a defibrillator, but it hasn’t. Of course, it hasn’t. And now your wife with sadness in her eyes is asking you, where is this marriage going? Right?
So back to the herd and the same. If you don’t have an answer, that’s a problem. We should talk.
If you have an answer and it’s anything but a clear f, yeah, we’re heading into greater connection, deeper passionate, stronger commitment. That’s a problem. We should talk. If you’re holding so much blame, anger, and hostility that you don’t even want to offer her an answer because you can’t discern what’s even true for you anymore, That’s a problem you should talk. But most of all, if deep down, you know, she deserves the best of you, and there’s just been a wounded part of you unwilling to offer it, but you’re willing to do whatever it takes to step up, show up, and reignite what’s possible for you and your wife, then we got a spot on our account with your name on it. Right. So this is what’s possible, like, in just getting the moment of heightened receptivity.
Like, you don’t need Mattell’s data to write an email that has someone, like, fully seen, heard, and felt in a critical moment of heightened receptivity where they would do anything to solve it. So that’s what I got. Opening to questions, comments, feedback, and up your views if y’all have anything you want feedback on.
Yeah. I oh, go ahead.
I was gonna say, do you have, like, a specific order that you try to get them in?
Because it sounds like you try to rotate them.
Within the email itself?
I like to start I like to start with seen just because, like, it’s a really easy way to anchor them into it.
But other than that, it’s just kind of how I process and play out the scene as I write. But yeah.
Good question. I think starting with site tends to, like, anchor the scene really well.
Yeah. It’s kind of like a stupid comment, but I I’ve had, like, a question in my head for, like, years about because, like, your copy is very specific, and I kind of aim for that standard of, like, specificity.
But then sometimes I feel like my copy is too specific or, like and it’s not working. And I always wondered, like, what’s going on? But I think from doing that, I’ve kind of just sussed it. It’s like, you pick, like, a universal problem, and then you get specificity rather than just doing a specific problem because then it’s like then you can alienate people. If you pick universal problem and then get specific, like, you’re not gonna alienate people. I’m just very pleased I’ve just solved that because I’ve been like, what’s going on here for ages?
Wait. Are you doing that again, Harry? I’m not sure I followed that.
Okay. So, like, choose the universal the universal problem, like, the most common So if you’re, like, surveying mining or something and then you’ve got the problem that comes up the most and then get really specific within that problem rather than just going for, like, a specific problem.
Because then it can feel too specific and then the client could be like, oh, like, people don’t think this. But if you if you choose the general problem and then add specific details and it adds that, like, color and depth.
And it’s isn’t gonna make people think, oh, well because no one’s gonna be like, oh, I don’t watch Sons of Anarchy. That doesn’t, like, apply to me. But they might but if it’s a specific problem that they don’t feel, then you can alienate them. Does that make sense?
I think so.
I mean, why would explain it better?
I I think, like, the simplest way I could put it, right, is, like, any, like, any so the audience for this was, like, men in marriages. Right? And the main problem it fixes is, like, disconnection and numbness. Right?
So it’s like any man who is feeling disconnected and confused and not sure what to do will relate with the man in that scene, right, regardless of the specifics of it, regardless of whether or not he actually, like, sons of anarchy or not. Like, he knows what it’s like to like, there are some details he’ll pick up on. Right? Like, the averting the gaze.
Right? Averting the eye contact is not wanting to engage in that space or not knowing how to. So it’s like yeah. Essentially, he can see himself in that man’s shoes because they share the common ground of the core problem, if that makes sense.
I have another question.
Yep.
So I I think that filling in a lot of these details is possible in a more b to c space. But, again, like, for example, one of I think I brought up this copy a couple of times. This company I’m working with is called Novena. They do AI powered, health care.
Mhmm.
And they’re dealing with, like, health care organization.
Not like a doctor, a nurse, like an office, like the management organizations Mhmm.
Of health care providers.
Like, how do I go about filling in the sensory details in that kind of client when those kind of details are not things that you’ll find on a sales call? And it’s so far removed from my daily life. Like, where do I go without even starting to look for those kind of details?
Right. Like, who is the ultimate, like, decision maker?
Like, of Like, care management groups that, like, deal with health care regulations and, like, payers, insurance, things like that.
Like, they’re managing either hospitals, like, different hospitals and, like, hospital chain or, like, a bunch of, like, a a bunch of physicians that are part of, like, a physician care group.
Yep. Yeah. So, I mean, I’ll acknowledge. Right? Like, there are limitations. You probably can’t tell that same type of story in that context.
Most likely not. Right? Like, I think that you do run into challenges with clients being comfortable with a full on kind of, like, story and immersion into that kind of case.
Where there is where there is, like, clarity on what the, you know, the main purchaser, right, is experiencing as it relates to solving that problem. I think injecting some of those details is is useful. Right? Like, I don’t know what the specific experience is of a moment of heightened receptivity in that buying decision. But if you can even just, like, reflect on, like, what is the tipping point that moves them towards consideration here. Right? Like, is does something actually happen that triggers a we need to fix this or we need to seek a solution here?
Then you can bring that in. Right? Like, in a obviously tone down way, but there’s still probably a moment that triggers a buying decision, likely.
Yes. I think one of the issues, though, is in a lot of really complex b two b solutions, the person who has the pain point is not the person making the decision. So in this case, the doctor is the one feeling the pain because the pain point is they have a lot of patient records to read through before they see a patient. And they don’t have time to go through it all, and they don’t have the, they oftentimes miss important details. But the person buying it is the person managing those positions, and they might have been a position themselves at one point, but now they’re in more of an administrative role.
And so Right.
Yeah. Do they have, like, challenges in managing those positions or serving those positions, like, because of the physician stress? Does it kinda, like, bleed over?
Yeah. So it’s a lot about, like, making sure that they’re getting that they’re they’re having good care and a lot about, like, how they interact with insurance if they’re on more of a value based model, meaning that they’re being paid based on the outcome of the patient as opposed to, just a fixed amount, then they wanna make sure that they are going through all of these records and things like that.
Yeah.
So it’s a lot about being efficient and optimizing workflows and Mhmm. Avoiding time wastage.
Right. And they there’s a cost to them when the physicians are inefficient. Right? Like, some of that moves through. Yeah. So, like, they have yeah.
Patients aren’t being healed. Mhmm. Things like that. I mean, this is just one example, but I Mhmm. Like, it’s also relevant for lots of different examples.
Yeah. So, like, if you could identify, like, you know, the two or three biggest motivators. Right? Like, if it’s, like, inefficiency, for example, inefficiency or, like, reduction of quality of patient care. Right? That’s, like, two of them.
Mhmm.
And if you can almost highlight, like, two or three scenarios for each of those two that they would be hearing, seeing, and feeling, right, like, either as a complaint, right, or a lawsuit or a reduction of billings, like, whatever that translates to. Mhmm. I think that there’d be an opportunity to craft, like, tone down versions of this email around that. Right?
Mhmm. Like, especially if the buyer of this is in contact with the doctor or the physician and maybe the physician is communicating some of that stress to them, and they don’t have a solution to it, right, other than, like, keep going. Right? Like, do your best.
Right? Like, I don’t know how that plays out.
Mhmm. But I can only imagine there are stressful scenarios for both the buyer and the position they serve here. Right? And, like, just highlighting some of those without being too excessive in the scene painting, could go a long way.
Okay. Yeah. I mean, I definitely include those kind of elements. But, like, I wish I could include more sensory details, like, bring in what the office looks like or who they’re meeting with. And I just I am so far removed from that world.
I Mhmm.
Would be embarrassed to even venture a guess. Especially, like, I remember when I was working in house, like, I would collect these anecdotes, like, after over a long period of how like, over six to twelve months, you could collect a lot of anecdotes to sort of create that picture in your head.
Mhmm.
But, like, if you’re just going into a project, it’s hard to sort of absorb that in an organic way.
Yeah. Understandable.
Is there kind of, like, a standard system that they use, like, visually? Like, are things being processed through, like, you know, a common system? Like, where things are signaled as being inefficient or, like, how do they know something’s inefficient other than, like, the feeling of it?
Like, is it in the reduced billings and a report at the end of the month?
Like Yeah.
Yeah.
There would be issues with payments and Mhmm.
Doctors would be burned out. That’s a big one. Doctors would not wanna there there would be a lot of turnover.
So so, like, a missed payment, like, that’s where I would dig. Like, what is, like, what is the experience of a missed payment? Is, like, an is it an email notification from, like, x payment processor system? Like and they get that on their phone or they get that, like, at the office, and then they have to like, that would be a moment, for example.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
So yeah. Sometimes. So yeah. Obviously, like, obviously, like, familiarity and the more conversations you have with it, the easier it gets. And there are certain limitations when, like, you’re newer to that world and not a lot of people are interacting with you about these details, and there’s not a lot of opportunity to get them.
Mhmm.
But, yeah, where where you do have the ability to, like, ask those probing questions. Right? Like, so much can come out of it. Right?
Like, what does that what does inefficiency actually look like? What does that moment it signals to you? Right? Like, and have you feel in that moment.
Yeah. I love the idea of the notification on your phone. I just like, the client is also a marketer, and so Yep. They’re not as familiar with it.
And Mhmm. These people are pretty high up in their career ladder, so they’re not, like, people who would be really readily available to just casually jump on a call. And customer success is not always willing to let you jump on a call with them. Right.
So but, like, I like that idea, but I feel like I might have to find other sources to sort of validate that kind of language.
Right.
Yeah. I would start with, like, what’s most within reach. I think, like, the visual would would be the easiest. Right?
Because you don’t really need to go too deep into their personal experience of how did you react to that. Like, you can kind of fill in the gaps. Right? Like, if they’re getting a notification of a missed payment or whatever, like, it’s a pretty universal experience of how that feels, right, to the end user.
So, yeah, just, like, get that data. Right? Like, are they checking it on their phone, on their lunch break, and that pings them? Like, does that warrant a conversation with, like, the office manager or the head phys like, I don’t know enough about that industry to fill in those gaps, but, yeah, I feel like, some light digging might yield some pretty cool results.
Okay.
Cool. Jessica, I see your hand up.
I was just getting in line for a copy review, if that’s okay.
Yeah. That’s cool.
For sure. Any other questions about the topic before we jump into Jessica’s review?
Sweet. I think that means you’re up.
Okay.
So, Ry, I don’t I don’t know, if you’ve heard, but I was kinda shifting. You know, I was focusing on seasonal sales, holiday sales?
Mhmm.
Yeah. Red thread. Okay. So as that kind of, was explored deeper, I redid my home page, all the things, then it kinda became more of a helping ecommerce brands on the either other side of the discount.
Like, once they’ve acquired a client through a discount, what do we do? Because we can’t may we can’t create loyalty with a discount. Right? Mhmm.
And so and then it kinda became, the phrase for my, hopefully, future podcast newsletters, ditch the discount. And not to say never do discounts, but be more strategic.
Mhmm.
And so but my big thing is I’d like to build, ideally, a more email funnel, SMS funnel, service package through, you know, the intensive Joe’s teaching, the standardized project and the retainer. So my goal is to create, like, the email program audit, and that’s what I’ve actually done for a couple brands now, and then retainer being the optimization, especially of their flows. So just so you kind of have context of what I’m kinda building now. And Abby kind of helped me through my home page website.
And, I just that’s what I wanna share. And, Naomi, by the way, I was just saying, I I believe that you’ve done interviews. I was just saying that that for me, when I was working at my my Utilizer, that was where I got all my stuff. I didn’t mean to say you weren’t doing it. That was that was just my comment. Okay. So, anyway, here’s my home page.
Yes, please feel free to be as brutal as whatever. But the ultimate I don’t know. We did, like, a fast rewrite, and I just I walked away going, well, it’s better than my seasonal sale focused version, but I still don’t think as I go through it. I’m like, do they know what I do? Do they know what the next step like, I’m I really stripped back. I took my services page off and all that, and I just really wanna focus on let’s optimize the home page, and then I’ll go from there. So that’s kind of what I’m looking for is help with making this better so that they know what I do and know the next step, which would be a call with me, essentially.
Cool. Alright.
Let’s go through it.
Sweet. DTC and ecommerce brands. I’ll read in my head so it’s not annoying.
If anyone has a comment as I go through this, feel free to just jump in.
Do you have a picture of yourself where you’re facing to the right? Because I feel like if you had well, I think number one, if this image was slightly larger, it might feel a little bit more balanced because I feel like there’s a lot of empty space here at the top.
Or maybe even if the text was on the left and the picture’s on the right.
Because I feel like having the text in the middle and the picture on the right feels a little bit imbalanced because the empty space on the left.
So that might help make it a little bit more like, fill up the space more.
Did you catch that, Jess?
I did. I’m just it’s cool. Yeah. I I appreciate that. Know that it’s not really, it’s funny that you bring that up because Abby and I Abby, was that not on the left side of the thing the person you’re like, And we were like, yeah.
It’s better than the central. But the problem also is me figuring out Squarespace and spacing. Because if you put this on a different size window or on a different, a different device, you will see something almost totally different. So, yeah, I know that, but it’s it’s not my priority right now.
But, yeah, I mean, it’s on the notes of things to do eventually. I’m sure.
Yeah. I mean, I think the text is fine in the middle. It just with the image. It might need a maybe maybe just leave the image off.
Yeah. Just a lot.
So it’s your, like, ideal client over five million?
Yeah. That was, that’s kind of what I found is that if they don’t make at least five million in annual revenue, it’s it’s not an ideal client who would invest in me.
Cool.
Jessica, this is I know, like, it’s really difficult because we’ve we’ve just kind of been guessing that, like, for a client over five million, like, do they still want more sales? Is that still, like, the thing that they want?
Like, it it seems like a really silly question, but I don’t know. I’m just wondering now with the like, you want more like, you need more sales. Like, is that is that still what they’re trying to to do?
Like As opposed to what?
Exactly. I don’t know. Like, to build more profit, more profitability. I don’t know.
Well, we said sales. I think you and I talked about changing it, but, I mean, ultimately, the biggest challenge with this group that I’ve interacted with and then done, of course, more research on is, that email channel specifically is not generating the revenue they feel it should Mhmm. And especially from the flows. Like, I’ve heard I’ve had a a client and then a couple leads and then just researched their where usually, they can’t this big shocker, their campaigns, they’re not too unhappy with their campaigns because guess what they lead with, a discount, or it’s a holiday or whatever.
But it’s their flows, their automation.
Leave it that then, like, rather than needing more sales? Because I guess if they need more sales, they can just, like, increase the ad spend if they’re at, like, five million or whatever. Maybe just maybe lead with, like, literally what you just said about the email flows. I don’t know.
And I know this is really annoying because I’ve we’ve been over the phase together, and I’m adding something new. But I just missed that bit about over the five million mark, and now I’m yeah. I don’t know. I’m just curious.
You might be able to talk about scaling because meeting sales means like, in my mind, that means, well, I’m desperate for sales where once you get to a certain point, it’s not that you desperately need them. It’s that you’re looking to put things on autopilot. You’re looking to make things more efficient. You’re looking to optimize things. So it’s wanting more scale wanting more sales, but wanting them, in a way that’s scalable.
No. I think that’s that that’s a great how does that hit with you, Ry? Because I definitely saw, the word scale, scaling, and the other versions of it in, VOC research.
Mhmm.
So why does that hit you with opening that as opposed to just generally the word sales?
Scaling is stronger than more sales, I think, for this audience, especially if you’re really targeting people who are already over five million, and they’re probably looking to scale sustainably.
Right? And the margins are a really big part of that, I’m guessing.
Like, would that be accurate?
Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yep.
I think so so that’s one way to lead in. Another way to lead in would be, like, obviously, like, this pain point. So it’s like, how strong is the pain point in their VOC of, like, the discounting? Is it something that they really, really hate and it’s a necessary evil, or is it something that you think they hate? Like, how much are they talking about, like, dreading discounting?
Oh, that’s a really good point.
Like, I know you hate discounts for them. Right? But how much are they like like let’s say, like, it’s Monday morning after their, like, Mother’s Day promotion. Right? Yeah. And they’re putting the numbers on the screen, like and it was, like, great sales volume, like, poor margins. Are they complaining about the margins there, or are they just happy with the volume?
Like So the meetings I’ve been in on, it’s celebrate celebrate the win of whatever was the latest promotion.
Mhmm.
And then it it almost in between the promotions is talking about retention.
So, like, we talk about cause. We talk about that a little bit maybe in the in betweens.
But when we’re talking about post sale Mhmm.
It’s pretty rare that I’m in on a Trevani a long time. It was pretty rare that you’d come off of a a promotion and go, oh, crap.
But how are we gonna keep these people? And, they were they didn’t seem to be obsessing about the discount. They were celebrating either the win or the not, I guess, the not.
Mhmm. Yeah.
I didn’t So yeah.
And it’s an important note. Right? Like Yeah. With that that retention, like and without, like, actually getting nondiscounted sales after that customer’s been acquired, like, they’re not gonna grow. Right?
Right.
One thing comes to mind is, like, a really kind of more of an unconventional format as a headline. Like, you could take it or leave it that might capture that. Right? It’s like what was it?
You know, great news. Like, great news. Our, yeah, great news. Our mother can’t mother to stay campaign crushed, you know, bringing in over x.
Bad news. Our margins were thinner than a next gen iPad. New app. Right?
Now we got now what what now what do we gotta do? Essentially, like, be the third one, which is, like, how do we increase our LTV? How do we retain them? How do we get repeat sales at higher margins? Right? Like, if that’s the scenario you fix of, like, they’re flush full of, like, new customers that have been discounted.
The margins are thin. They’re aware of it, and now they have this opportunity of needing to maximize, right, repeat purchases, nondiscounted purchases, and the email flows that support it. Like, I think that could be a really cool way to drop into the conversation.
So how would you because that’s always been a disconnect for me is making sure it’s really clear that when I talk about that, that I then is it clear? Or how do I make it clear that and the solution is your email and SMS marketing, not basically any like, I’m not gonna do ads. We’re not gonna talk. I’m not I’m not gonna do I’m not diving back into the ads. So is that how do I make sure that connection is clear?
I mean, it’s clear here.
Okay. Alright.
Mhmm. Okay. Good email strategy and conversion copy.
Email strategy and conversion copy. I mean, I maybe have SMS here, right, if that’s a big part of what you do and a big part of what they know they need.
Yeah. Okay.
SMS may mean more to them than conversion copy. I’m not sure.
Like Mhmm.
Good point.
That creates repeat customers so you can boost your revenue. Do you have, like, special IP names for your, like, email frameworks or your SMS flows?
Or No.
I did for my seasonal sales, but, no, I haven’t created something. But I that’s a great you’re right. I need that.
What would you do with it since you were thinking of it?
Oh, I mean, I would just, like, note that here. Right? Like, if you had a different term for email strategy or a different term for, like like, ex SMS type flow. Right? Like, your branded SMS flow. Right?
Okay.
Like, it would be too much of a mouthful to say, like, post discount purchase SMS flows. Right? Like, I don’t know. But I think, like, what I’m hearing you do, right, is, like, you maximize everything out of these discounted customers. Right? And you do that. So it is kind of like a post seasonal sale strategy.
Is that correct?
Yeah. It’s the, yes. Exact yeah. Either seasonal sale or some form of a promotion, but yeah.
So that moment of heightened for them really is, like, analyzing their seasonal sales data, being hyped about, you know, you know, the top line kind of meh about the margins and our team, let’s maximize it. Like, I would really enter the conversation there and then talk about how you fit into that post seasonal sales flow.
Okay. Yeah. Because it really anchors it to a very specific use case. Right? Like, you’ve had this win, now you have this opportunity. Right? Or you’ve had this win, this is what you sacrificed to get the win, but this is how you make it up and then some.
Okay.
Wait. Can I have a I have a question? How how focused are they on the margins?
Because I know, like like, if you’re I I don’t know anything about ecommerce, but I know in SaaS, like, there was a big, big shift when the market crashed when, like, twenty twenty one, the only thing anyone talked about was growth, and no one could possibly care about how much marketers were spending.
And now the only thing everyone cares about is profitability.
But if you had said like, if I were to say you should hire me because I’ll help you make your campaigns more efficient, like, no one would care.
But, like, if that’s the case, then it would be more help like, my strategy would be to go in and, like, introduce a little bit of doubt. Like, try to start by almost waking them up to the problem.
Like, what, like, you’re you’re celebrating these wins. That’s what you said. But there’s, like, a creeping doubt in the back of your mind that this growth is is not as profitable as it could be or this growth is happening only because, you’re putting a lot of money into it.
Is that clear? No? Yes?
I think I’m pausing before I respond because I’m thinking about what you just said. Yes. Profitability and, profit margins are important to ecommerce for sure. It’s also why I can’t work with certain brands because the the profit margins are just too too small.
So, yeah, I mean, that’s definitely a conversation.
At the top of their mind, or are they just, like, celebrating these wins and not thinking about the margins?
No. If there if there’s someone at the level that I’m speaking to, yeah, they’re paying attention to it.
Okay. Makes sense.
Do you have, like, data even if it’s, like, an estimate of, like, the average profit margin of your ideal client and, like, where they’d like to be? Or is it or does it vary too much from company to company?
I don’t think I have a no. I don’t have a well, obviously, I’m pausing. So, no, I don’t have that a solid statistic. But you’re that’s a good point.
Mhmm.
Yeah. I don’t think you need to define it. Right? I think, like, as as long as you call it out, right, like, you have a win of your volume, you have an l, right, and the margins you had to accept by discounting, and now you have an opportunity to make up for it and experience, like, true growth. Right? Mhmm. Yep.
So, like, I think that’s I think that’s the sales argument. Because when you really think about, like, what your ideal client is experiencing, like, what is true about them? They are experiencing a win in volume sales, right, from discounting, and they’re experiencing the need for, yeah. Exactly what you do. Right? More sales, nondiscounted.
K.
Cool.
Your email list isn’t responding to your discount heavy designed heavy emails.
So depending on what you do with the headline, right, like, it may change Oh, yeah.
The section. Yeah.
It’s yeah. It’s gonna change.
Mhmm. Cool.
But the tough part for me on that one is, that is directly from an ideal client. But yeah.
I mean, that’s why they invested so big. It was our email channel. We figured out the ads game. We’ve figured out the other stuff.
Our email channel is not generating the revenue it should, and we’re tired of leaning on our discounts and our image pretty images. And we wanna go and they were the ones who said, like, copy first. And, you know, so it was and it’s a nine figure plus business, pet meds. I mean, it was just that was from an ideal client is, like, guessing.
Yeah.
Yeah. So it depends on the conversation you wanna have. Right? Like, it depends on, like, how you wanna orient the sales conversation based on why you feel they would hire you.
Like, this definitely makes sense in a broader context.
And if we’re and if we’re gonna operate from, like, the conversation of, like, you’ve had a win, You accept it, and now now let’s make good on it. Then I would continue the conversation on you could agitate it. Right? That could be an option. Or you can move straight into, like, your process of of, like, you know, making good on what do we do after you’ve had a boatload of sales from your discounted push. Right? Yeah.
And then kind of bridge into Oh god.
Don’t worry. I hate that section. Hate that section.
Alright.
Well, we like, Farna’s whatever lesson, and I hate the intro of that.
Now now I can’t not read it. You understand?
It’s the first lines. But, hey. You’re here. I’m am here. Like, who the hell talk like that? I don’t talk like that. Like, stupid.
Am I right? Am I right? Yeah.
This is oh, painful. I can’t even stand you’re looking at it and recording this.
It’s on the record.
Jess wrote, am I right? Record.
Like, you should unlock a badge for the usage of am I right? Like, unlock a new level. Hey. Hey, Sam. Sam’s eyes. What is those eyes?
Like He has piercing eyes.
They’re Actually, when he’s not smiling.
How did you get a testimony from Sam? I didn’t know you had that.
The intensive.
Gotcha. Nice.
Thank you, Andrew, for the comment. I appreciate that.
Cool. Does that give you some enough insight for today, like, to work with and to consider?
Yeah. That’s fine. That’s great.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Thank you all. I appreciate it.
Cool. Cool.
Alright. We are at the hour. So if anyone has to jump off, that is totally cool. Does anyone have any questions or things they urgently needed reviewed?
If so, I’m happy to stick around. So, hi, Andrew.
Could I ask one Oh, oh, oh, you’re I thought you were waving goodbye.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah.
Can I ask one question? You need to keep it running on if not.
But, yeah. So, this is kind of touching back on what we were talking about before, and there was, I think Abby wrote in chat, you know, she wrote, this is why I hate writing for SaaS. How do how do you add dollar and d m l to optimizing workflows?
And so that’s, like, my whole, that’s, like, everything I work with is b to b SaaS and tends to be, like, really technical products, like, data heavy stuff where all the people buying it have, like, data in their title and stuff like that. Mhmm. And something that I struggle with is that as I’m researching the the client, like, all of their materials are written in this, like, very academic language. Everything is optimized, accelerate analytic productivity, this and that. And as I research, I find myself almost getting, like, sucked into that a little bit. And at some point, I go, oh, I get why they came up with this because this is, like, the most accurate summary of what it is. Right?
And they couldn’t they couldn’t find out what it wasn’t a human and specific way to say that that’s, like, completely accurate or something like that.
So I I guess I’m just wondering if you have any tips for how to, not drink the client my client’s Kool Aid. And and then the other thing is that the BOC is like that too because then they go, okay. We really wanna try to, like Mhmm. Like, even the voice of the customer is not always very human.
How to not drink the client’s Kool Aid. I mean, I’ve I’ve drank the client’s Kool Aid and then hated whatever and after the fact. It’s really convincing. Right? Because they’re so authoritative in their Kool Aid, and they’re serving a bit Kool Aid.
So I think, like, the most practical thing I could offer, right, is to not necessarily try to, like, rewrite every aspect of the offer and what it does in more human language, but, like, choose a very specific scenario in which the use case is, like, needed, like, when they know they have the problem. Right? So it’s like like, I mean, taking the example. I know, obviously, like, coaching is very different from SaaS.
Right? But, like, is there a moment when they their workflows were broken? Is there a moment when a project fell through the cracks? Like, if you’re selling project management software, right, it’s like, you know, what are they hearing?
Like, is this done yet? Like, question mark. Like, where is this? Question mark. Like, what is a product manager saying as a follow-up, and then what’s the oh, shit moment?
Right? So it’s like you’re not gonna be able to necessarily capture the entire marketing message, but can you capture a moment in which the software you’re selling would be a solve for it. Right? And just, like, see if that hits and if that resonates, especially on the email or the ad level.
Yeah. That that works. Yeah. That works. And I’ve seen it done well. So I yeah.
Yeah. The email and the ad level are, like, the easiest places to try to, like, weave this in and test it out. Obviously, obviously, landing pages and sales pages that are more static are more difficult.
So, yeah, I I like testing things out in email and ad scenarios where, like, yeah, you have a little bit more leeway.
Cool. Good job. Alright. Thank you.
Sorry to hear that.
Wait. Can I ask one more question, please?
Yeah. Of course.
I meant to ask this earlier, and I totally forgot. What I really like that you do, you do such a good job of coming up with, like, metaphors, And I forgot the one in the example.
Automatic or self operating defibrillator, I think, was Oh, yeah. Was when you Self self applied defibrillator.
Yeah.
And there was another one that you used. I don’t even remember the email. It was ages ago that I read it, and you used the phrase diabetic fruit fly to describe, like, a computer charger, like an old computer. And, like, that I don’t even remember what the rest of the email was about, but that phrase stuck with me. And I haven’t been able to come up with metaphors that are, like, kitschy like that, but, like, actually descriptive and not over the top.
I was wondering if you have, like, how you come up with those, if you have a process or Gosh.
Like, I I have a process for, like, not writing white noisy ones. Right? Like, I do have an aversion to, like, if I write a metaphor the first time and I’m like, I’ve seen that a million times before, like, I will, like, not include that intentionally.
How to come up with the good ones, like so there there’s an orientation towards, like I wanna put something on the page that no one’s read before, like, a combination or a string of words that no one’s read before, and there’s a really real strategic reason. Right? That is reader engagement. That’s some kind of, like, being tuned in to the message. And Right. So, like, how do I actually come up with them?
Just kinda like my brain works in a really strange way. It’s like, I don’t know why I’m thinking of diabetic fruit flies. I really don’t. Like, I’m concerned that my brain goes there.
I used to read so many screenplays, and, like, screenwriters get really crafty in describing scenes.
Like like and you could probably still find a lot of screen screenplays out there. Like and I wouldn’t read classic ones. I’d read the ones from, like, up and coming writers. Right?
Like, I think the blacklist is, like, a really good source for that. I don’t know if it still exists, but, like, yeah, that’s typically where I picked up, like, language patterning is because, like, they’re trying to impress agents. They’re trying to be interesting. They’re trying to be engaging.
Right? And they just come up with, like, really cool and interesting ways of saying things, and it just kind of repatterns, you know, how I think about things at least.
But, yeah, I’d say, like, there’s an intentional orientation around not being white noisy, not being boring, challenging certain ways of saying things. And sometimes that happens on the first pass. Sometimes that comes when I’m rereading it a second or third time and be like, this would be a cool way of saying that. So yeah.
I wish there was a formula. Maybe there is a formula, and I just haven’t discovered it yet.
Maybe I’ll try reading more screenplays.
Yeah.
Cool.
Struggle bus. Gosh. I’ve never talked about the struggle bus.
Ton every sales page for entrepreneurs. Yeah. It’s true.
Cool. Awesome. Any other, questions, comments, or we’re feeling good and complete for today?
Awesome. Well, thanks for your time, everybody. Catch you all soon. Take care.
Thanks, Roy. See you.
Bye,
Your Inner Authority (Part 2)
Your Inner Authority (Part 2)
Transcript
Awesome. So this is part two of this Deep Craft inner authority, series.
This one is called shadow copy, how to balance virtuous and forbidden desire to elicit your prospects. Full range of f yet, I need this. So this is one that I’ve been, like, saving to teach somewhere for probably at least a year. And I’m like, who can I teach this to? Like, who’s already got a lot of the basics, the foundations and even the intermediate stuff, lockdown, and it’s ripe to talk about some advanced stuff that we just don’t get to talk about very often. So, yeah, I’m excited to share this one. This is part two, part one.
For those who haven’t seen it yet, that was last month, Deep VOC three piercing questions to go beneath the surface.
Not a prerequisite for it, but definitely related. And today’s is shadow copy, and we’ll see if there’s a part three, at some other point. But I love just going into the deeper, more nuanced stuff that is highly practical that just doesn’t get a lot of airtime. So, yeah, that’s kinda my thing, and happy to geek out on all that anywhere.
Slack, call me up, email me. Let’s Zoom. Let’s nerd out on weird deep inner authority stuff that, yeah, no one else really likes to geek out on. So, who is the inner authority?
To me, like, I’ve just defined this nice and simply as, one who knows the prospect better than they know themselves. That is typically the feedback I get when a page does really, really well. It’s like, oh my goodness. You know me better than I know myself.
And what it’s really achieving is it’s exposing and illuminating that which the prospect is unable or unwilling to divulge or articulate themselves. So that’s kind of the mechanism of it.
And what it achieves, it builds trust and resonance through the damn, are you in my head phenomenon or effect.
That’s what I aim to get to, in pretty much everything I write. And it makes sure that your one reader is fully seen on the page or at least more seen than anywhere else on the Internet or than any other competitor is willing to see them.
So that’s a term that gets talked about a lot. It’s like, make sure they’re seen on the page. And I actually wanted to unpack that a little and go a little deeper. What does it actually mean to have your prospect fully seen?
Well, it partly means to have their full range of desires mirrored. That means more than this. Right? To be seen on page also involves their problem, right, their stakes, their situation, their context, all that other stuff.
But in terms of desires, there’s a full range of desire and motivation.
In my view, only one and two really get the most, real estate on a page or explored in one’s research. So these four layers are they’re socially acceptable desires, they’re known and they’re owned desires. So the stuff they know about themselves. This is why I desire this. This is something I’m willing to own and something I’m willing to share.
But everybody, without exception, I would say, I would dare to say, has secret desires and secret motivations, things that they wouldn’t want to say out loud or even confess to themselves. Right? Disowned desires or even unknown desires, things they haven’t even, contemplated about themselves around why they might want something or why they might want to achieve something. So three and four, definitely in that darker, lesser known, disowned territory.
And as a marketer or copywriter, number one and two are really easy to gather and mirror on the page. Right? They appear readily in the VOC and surveys and interviews and message mining because they are known, they are owned, they are socially acceptable, people feel cool and even good in divulging them. So that’s cool.
Number one and two are easy. We got that on lock. Number three and four, more rare, but I would argue definitely no less powerful and maybe even more powerful. Right?
There’s kind of this operating theory that that which gets disowned may have greater pull. Right? And people may not even know why these things pull them. But three and four, definitely strong strong strong motivators.
The unknown, the disowned, and the less socially acceptable desire. So I’m gonna give you a little story from a past life. Two thousand six, two thousand seven, one of my first jobs, like, after I quit corporate life was a personal trainer at a gym.
And one of my roles was to, get people to move from thirty dollars a month memberships to personal training packages. And, you know, very typical sales script, like, what’s your motivation? What are you doing this for?
And almost universally, this is more common in men, actually. Like, men in their thirties and forties, they would say, I just wanna stay in shape. Right? I just wanna maintain. I just want to, yeah, I just want to stay in shape. Right? That was the common language that we almost knew would come without exception.
And it’s easy to sell a thirty dollar per month membership to someone who wants to stay in shape. It’s really difficult to sell a higher ticket, package, right, to someone who just wants to stay in shape. There’s not a lot of charge or a lot of juice behind that motivation. There’s not a lot of stakes behind that motivation. There’s not a lot of drive behind that motivation.
And me and the gym owner and manager and the other people, you know, on the floor and trainers We constantly have these conversations of, like, how do we get people to actually own a wider and a deeper breadth of desire?
And I think I came up with eight words, right, that I just kind of blurted out randomly that became part of our script. Like, it’s cool if you just want to look good. Right? Like eight words.
That’s it. And whenever we would catch someone who wouldn’t own that full desire, that that became part of the script. It’s cool if you just want to look good. Right?
Like, that’s totally acceptable and a fair motivation for doing this. And that would totally flip the conversation because we were taking the lead in owning this disowned desire for them. We made it safe. We gave them permission to actually say what they wanted, maybe even what they were thinking, but didn’t wanna be judged for claiming as a desire.
So all this to say, people are far, far, far, like, I Yeah. I think I put it in caps. Good. I put it in caps because they are far more willing and capable of sharing virtuous and socially accepted politically correct desires than they are. They’re disowned motivators that may actually be driving the decision.
So one thing that we could do as marketers, as copywriters, as salespeople, and offer creators is to give our one reader a permission slip for the full spectrum of their desires. Right? This is a gift we get to give them. Right? It’s cool if this is what you want. It’s cool if this is your main desire driving this decision.
So we claim it on the page for them or the sales call so that they don’t have to so that they can remain in their virtuous, you know, acceptable version of themselves while feeling like our offer and what we’re, enrolling them into, is all inclusive of that more shadowy desire. Does that make sense? Because I’m throwing a lot of terms really quickly. Cool.
Sweet. So let’s do a deeper dive into this topic, shadow desires and virtual desires. So what is the source? Where are these desires coming from?
Shadow desire, you know, the deep, unknown, underworld, subconscious, ego, typically a shadow drive, right? A drive to be better, to be richer, to be more resourced, to look better, to win over. It’s very competition based. It’s very comparative.
It’s rooted in identities they’ve already lived and motivations they’ve already experienced and therefore have a high degree of charge around. Whereas a virtuous desire, they haven’t really lived that person yet. It’s who they’d like to be. It may be an aspirational ideal, but there’s no experiential data and therefore less charge, less emotionality to that virtuous desire.
And if emotions drive decisions, there’s going to be far, far, far, far more stuff driving the decision in that shadow desire.
The orientations of it. Right? The orientation of the shadow desire is typically more selfish. Right?
How it benefits me, how it puts me at an advantage over others. Once again, very competitive based, even zero sum based. I remember, one of my first really big clients in the copywriting space was to write a launch. And it was one of the first times I quoted a really big package to do the full spectrum of a launch.
And he was saying the whole time, I just want to hire the best. I just want to have the best launch. I just really want to blow this out of the water, right? You know?
And, like, I asked him, like, why is this important to you? Right? Like, because it felt like there’s a lot of charge there beyond just the business doing well.
Right? And his desire was, I don’t like the people who are essentially owning this space right now. I feel like my stuff is better, and my end result is I I wanna be ahead of them in a year from now. I want my name to be the household name in this space.
Right? Competition based. Right? And it took him a while to own that and to state that and to admit to that.
But that was what was driving him signing off on a big copywriting project on the first launch he was doing on a program. So these things are at play, and they don’t necessarily need to be unearthed in every conversation, but we can mirror it on the page in our copy.
Orientation for virtuous desire, typically, it’s going to be altruistic, right, where they’re kind of deflecting it for someone else, for the greater good, for their families.
And there’s truth to this, but it’s not the totality of truth.
Riskiness, right? To own and to admit a shadow desire tends to have a high degree of risk, right? You kind of risk being judged, right? Because these aren’t things that people typically state out loud, right?
These are things that get filtered. And almost rightfully so, it’s really difficult to maintain great friendships and relationships if if you go around talking about your shadow desires. So, high risk in them owning it, and therefore, what a relief when it’s on the page and they don’t have to own it and claim it for themselves. Virtual desire, virtually no risk at all.
Right? They almost look good and sanitized, right, in claiming just their virtual virtuous desire.
Awareness on a shadow desire, it could be totally disowned, or it could be unknown completely, and we’re the first ones to really make them say, you’re right. That is why I want that.
Virtuous desire is something that is readily owned and already there within awareness. So when we’re talking about a sales page or an email that really captivates and draws an interest and intrigue, if we’re mirroring back something that’s already known to them, that’s great. They feel seen on the page. But if we’re the ones to expose a part of them, it’s like, oh, shit. That is there. Right?
Now we’ve really hooked them in on something cool and interesting. So awareness, typically disowned on a shadow desire. Permission, certainly less permissible for them to own a shadow desire or admit to it. High permission, full permission, unvirtuous.
Core emotions, typically on a shadow desire, we’re working in the realms of lust, greed, pride, competition, retribution. Right? Show them, get back at them, prove something to somebody, virtuous desire, joy, love, and cooperation. So there’s a lot going on here.
You can screenshot it, just as a reference point.
But this comes into, yeah, full clarity when we actually start looking at examples, and it’s pretty simple to pull off once you start getting the hang of it.
So examples.
I just kinda crafted this one because I know Abby was working with, a bookkeeper, a client who is working with bookkeepers to leave their nine to five, start a profitable business. So this is like this could apply to anything that teaches people to go freelance. Right? So shadow desire, maybe to be crazy rich, be better than those stuck in the nine to five.
Right? How many people wanna go freelance and feel like they’re getting ahead of the people who aren’t there yet? Right? That is so out there and so rarely claimed.
Right? Give the proverbial f u to a boss that they hate, that always makes makes them work late, and slacks them on the weekend while they’re on family time. So all this would be in the realm of shadow desire.
Virtuous desire, this is what you’ll typically find right in the VOC, right, or on an interview, you know, to provide more for their family, to double their salary, enjoy a flexible schedule that allows them to pick up their kids from school at lunch and take them to Chipotle for a burrito. We don’t have Chipotle in Canada. So I kind of, like, always talk about Chipotle because it’s one of my personal personal unlived desires for more Chipotle in my life. So anyway, just keeps making its way there.
Fitness coach, right? Same thing.
Like virtuous desire, stay in shape. Like, those were the three dreaded words. Being able to play with my kids without getting tired. That is another one, like, you hear all the time.
Get a stamp of approval on annual health checks. Right? All virtuous desires shadow desires. Right? They wanna turn heads, you know, be attractive, all these things that, like, are right there that they just don’t want to claim. So this is really how it works, balancing out the shadow desires and the virtuous desires.
And the problem with virtuous desires is it leaves a whole lot left to be desired. It is incomplete. It is not entirely true. It’s only what our social selves want others to know about our motivations, but that we know is not our true or our complete motivation. So our job as marketers, just because our prospect is leaving it out doesn’t mean we should leave it out as well. So a simple template bringing this all into practice, for weaving in the shadow and virtuous desires.
Really simple. So this is a piece of copy you could put in your moment of highest tension section of the fifteen or sorry, moment of highest pleasure section of the fifteen point sales page in a day formula if you’re using, that template from ten x sales pages or in the desire section within any ADA formula you’re using. This would be something to weave into the desire section.
And it’s simple. So it’s not just about, you know, shadow desire one, two, or three. Right? Or or it’s not about forbidden one, two, or three.
And then validate it. Right? Say, it’s totally cool. If that’s what you’re striving for, we’ll stand with you in that.
Right? So give them permission. That’s the permission slip.
And then say it’s about virtuous desire one, two, three, so that. So it’s kind of a sandwich there. Right? You’re introducing the shadow desires and saying it’s not just about that.
You’re validating it for them, permission slip, and then leaving the desire off. So the last thing you write is the things that they want to feel, like those were their, driving motivations. So let’s look at an example.
So back to the fitness one.
So this is not just about, you know, the shadow desires of filling your iPhone’s camera roll with shirtless gym selfies and loving what you see, and it’s definitely not about the secret satisfaction you’ll get and being the only dad at the camping trip rocking a six pack instead of binge drinking ruined. That reads a little weird, but it makes sense. But hey, don’t let anyone judge your motivations for getting healthy. We’ll celebrate you and whatever gets you moving.
And then the virtual virtuous ones. But at its core, this program is about feeling more strong, vital, and confident in in your body at forty than you did at twenty, setting an exam setting an epic example for your kids and knowing that you’ve set yourself up to stay lean, fit, and healthy while most succumb to a state of slow and controlled erosion. So, you honor the shadow desires. You give them the permission slip, and then you tell them what it’s really about in a way that they would feel good and virtuous in enrolling.
So that’s what it looks like. Very simple, worksheet for you. It’s really just listing what the acceptable, safe, virtuous desires are, listing the forbidden ones.
And this can come through your VOC, it can come through your interviews, or it could come what you believe would be true and lurking, beneath the surface, just based on your knowledge of your audience.
And then essentially, craft it into this formula. Right? It’s not just about shadow one, shadow two, shadow three. Validate it and then share it’s about those virtuous desires.
And just see what that looks like and how that reads as a desire section, on a sales page, on an email, and test it out. You might be surprised in how it flows and just the responses you get, once your reader feels more fully seen on the page. So I think that’s all we got. Twenty minutes.
I’m getting good at these short presentations.
Sort of.
Cool. Any questions, thoughts, comments? We could definitely continue the conversation if y’all have further thoughts on how to elaborate on that or how you might see it applying for the work you do.
I have a question.
Mhmm.
It’s gonna be the same question probably that I ask you every time. Yes. But there was a very, very brief moment in time when my boss didn’t really, supervise me that much. So I was able to try more creative things, but nothing as creative as this because anytime you try to introduce this negative language in SaaS, you get hit with a that’s going to make people feel bad.
So my question is, how do you water this down? I And you’re you’re not gonna like to to answer this kind of question. But what kind of ways could you water this down so it’s still palatable for more of a corporate audience?
Yeah. So it’s a spectrum. Right? I think, like, the core of this is, like, what are the desires that are just a little less safe than the safe ones.
Right? And that are true most of all. Right? So it’s like, there’s no part of this that is shaming or making them feel bad, right?
It’s just saying this isn’t just about X, Y, and Z, and those X, Y, and Zs are the things that they actually want, that the reader really, really wants.
So you’re disowning that desire with them, right, and then wrapping it up with the things that are more acceptable.
So I wouldn’t go extreme with it. I wouldn’t use languaging, especially on the darker, more competitive edges of being so much better than someone else. You could definitely rein in that language.
But what are some of those things that they want that they’re kind of afraid to admit out loud, right? And see what’s a safe version of that, like the five on ten. If the virtuous desires are the one on ten on safety, just make the shadow desires a three or four on ten and see if you can push the envelope to that level.
So what might you say for somebody who’s a middle manager? Because that’s gonna be, like, the most typical audience. Like, a middle manager in sales, or a middle manager in project management or whatever it might be? What’s what might be language that you could use for them? Because nine times out of ten, that’s the person I’m talking to.
Yeah. So, like, what do they want out of the product? Like, what are they buying it for?
Usually, to have more efficiency, more control over their team, get rid of admin, make things more efficient. This is very generally speaking for a variety of different companies, but that’s sort of the concept.
So yeah.
Like, and what does it look like once those are achieved? Right? Is there, like do they get kinda, like, a special bonus on that? Do they get to, wrap up their days earlier because efficiency is in place and admin tasks are off their plate?
Right? So, like, that would be and I’m not saying that this is the accurate desire, but it would be like, this isn’t just about, you know, getting, you know, a glowing review from your, you know, higher ups, and getting to check out on weekends because everything is fully dialed in. Right? And enjoying your, you know, workout without being tethered to your phone.
Right? However that appears for them. This is about x, y, and z. So, like, the shadow desires are still in that play it safe range.
They’re just really kind of like giving a bit more of their selfish motivations, right, versus the altruistic or the company and for the team motivations, if that makes sense.
Okay. Especially if they’re the the decision maker. Right? To get them in touch with some of their more personal, quote unquote, selfish motivations without making them feel selfish for wanting it. Like, that’s the key for it. Make them feel like this will help them achieve what they really want selfishly without them having to feel selfish for wanting it, if that makes sense.
Interesting.
So let’s take let’s take a monday dot com example because that’s the most well known. Monday dot com being a competitor of Asana and Trello and Wrike, and all these other project management tools.
Instead of saying something along the lines of, if you have a spreadsheet with seventeen tabs open and you are tired of reading through long in long email threads, and you feel overwhelmed, or the reverse, the virtuous, which would be you can be a better team manager and help your team members and be more efficient and hit more business goals.
What would sort of be the middle ground there?
So project manager. Right? Like, so so I’ve worked with many project managers, like, who’ve managed me as a copywriter, right, both, you know, internally and also, like, I’ve worked closely with project managers on teams I’ve kinda, like, implanted myself into during bigger launches.
And, you know, one piece of feedback, like, I’ve given project managers who are really dialed in, right, and really streamlined on their process and systems is, like, you know, no project I’ve been on has ever run more smoothly. Right? Like, that’s the feedback they love getting. Like, be the project manager that every freelancer loves working with, right?
That taps into their sense of pride, right? Pride being one of those emotions we talked about for shadow desires.
So pride is a good one to work with as well, because it’s a little more acceptable than competitiveness You don’t need to always go to competitiveness.
But what would make that project manager who’s using Monday feel really good about themselves? Like when they go home and they have dinner with their partner or their spouse, what are they saying? Like, so and so said this about me. Right?
And they’re confiding that to their spouse because that’s that feels safe. Right? But how can we incorporate that into our copy, if that makes sense?
So, like, just what are those little moments that you can Yeah.
It almost sounds like you’re like, all of the benefits that you typically see on a sales page, like, be more efficient, get more ROI, be a better be a better manager. It’s almost like instead of saying, like, the actual benefit, say, be the person that people say this about.
Yeah. Exactly.
Benefit, but just Yeah. Framed it.
Because that’s what they really want. Right? That they can’t say out loud. Yeah. Yeah.
That is a very cool point.
Mhmm. Yep. And you can make the language as, like, safe as it needs to be for any industry. It’s just really about the, quote, unquote, more selfish, personally driven desires for the thing.
Okay. I like it.
Cool.
I have a quest a question.
Let me come on camera. Sorry. So so talking about that and, you know, safe language and and how to weave this in. So assuming you have, like, a big tech you know, like, enterprise tech. Right?
Mhmm.
This is not something where we’re you’re doing sales letter type stuff, and it’s a it’s a they they they live in a completely different universe, and it’s a little bit more buttoned up. So Of course. But I have this situation where I have a product. And the thing is people are really afraid of if they choose the wrong vendor, they’re gonna lose their job, you know, because it’s a it’s a mission critical service.
Right.
So how how have you ever had a situation where you’re working in something like that? Because that’s really what is going on under the surface. They’re they’re, you know, they’re afraid of of they’re afraid of losing their job if they choose the wrong company.
Mhmm. And what’s the upside if they choose the right company?
That’s a good question. I hadn’t you know?
I I guess I’ve been worrying about, like, how to get past this fear that they have of choosing.
Mhmm. It’s that it’s that old thing of, like, you know, nobody ever got fired for hiring IBM. You know? Yeah.
That Right.
The upside would be that nothing happens, really. It’s quiet and everything works well.
I mean, you know, no more no more support calls, no more, you know, emergency meetings because some country is having lag time or whatever.
Yep. For sure.
I mean, this copyright, I’m guessing, like, the one making the decision, right, their main desire is simply to make the right decision, right, in this case. Right?
It it is. Yeah. Yeah. It is. I I mean, some of there’s a certain sub sub segment that’s motivated by, you know, being cutting edge and being on the bleeding edge with technology and doing the latest and greatest thing.
Yeah.
But that’s that’s a certain percentage.
You know, those are the people that tend to those would be, I’d say, like, the ideal customer avatar. You know? The ones that are that wanna be on the bleeding edge are the ones that are an easier sell.
Yep.
It’s the question is how to get those other ones.
Yeah.
Yeah. I’d say, like, this copy is definitely or this kind of format and template is definitely meant for a specific context where the one reading it is the one who stands to benefit, right, and therefore they’re owning their desires, how would we work that principle, right, into, into that enterprise environment? That’s a great conversation. Right?
I think it’s, like, just wherever we can identify any desires that they haven’t claimed yet. Right? And this is mostly going to come out in kinda like the one to one communication, I’m guessing. Right?
Not necessarily on, like, the page.
Yeah. Like, I think I think a fair question is, like, what does it look like when you’ve made the right decision? Right? Like, how is that celebrated? Like, how do you feel when like, maybe it’s literally just watching the new new tech be integrated and having a sense of pride in it, right, that they let it, that they champion it. Right?
Getting to talk about that, right, that they kind of, like, championed and spearheaded this new initiative. Right? So it’s probably more pride, I would say.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Pride that their due diligence and their decision was behind, you know, a multi six figure, you know, reconfiguration of something. Right? And getting to watch that in real time as it gets kind of implemented. So I would tap into the pride aspects, and, yeah, have that conversation, like, with that kind of audience of, How does this actually play out in real time?
And what are the moments within that that feel really good, really validating? So I think feeling validated is also really important for people, you know, in that position because validation brings the security that they really want. Right? That they’ve really cemented their place within the organization because of this thing that they helped, you know, usher in.
So I suppose, you know, performance KPIs would would be something that would be a a tangible outcome, you know? And that’s not like an ROI thing. It’s like a, you know, uptime performance and stuff like that. So technical those technical performance KPIs, I guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. That makes sense. I think, like, the simplest version of it, and every context has its own nuances. Right?
Mhmm. Yeah. Especially in what that person could admit at lab. Right? A middle manager who’s making that decision might not even answer the question of, like, you know, why do they really desire to do this?
I mean, this would be a VP or a c level person.
You know? A CTO, CIO, the Yeah.
Director of engineering, that kind of Yep.
You know?
Yeah. I think, like, for what a successful decision and implementation means for them in their career and their sense of pride in their position pride in their position and also, like, cementing their status in the organization is probably probably gonna be something to play with, and it’s very nuanced in how you communicate.
Sort of like be the one be the one responsible for for your company’s zero downtime or something like that. Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, a headline that comes to mind. Right? And I’m not saying that we use headlines in this context, but it would be kinda like, you know, you know, this will be on your LinkedIn profile by June, right? Like some big thing that they led. Like that’s what they would be doing with you. Exactly.
Yeah. Like imagine this on your LinkedIn profile, right? Yeah.
So yeah, pride and accomplishment. Definitely play with those two.
Okay. Thank you.
What comes out of it. Thank you.
Hey, Ryan. I have a question. I feel like I work, you know, with, like, the coaches and and course creators where you might have already used this.
I like, I, I really like this technique. Just writing down like the seven deadly thins as ideas for places to find, the shadow desires.
But I guess, like, in the context of helping people make money online Mhmm. Like, is so the shadow desire in that is what they’re gonna do with the money or what they will be able It’s why they want it.
Why they want it. Okay. So I wrote I wrote the three that I came up with were like, this isn’t just about making yourself so personally secure that if your partner emptied your bank accounts and walked out the door tomorrow, you’d be like, solid for the next six months?
Yeah.
Having a program that your clients save rave so much about, they’re even talking about it inside other people’s coaching containers. Mhmm.
I don’t know. That one fell down. I was like, and out earning your early mentors so that your nervous system finally recognizes unequivocally that you’ve made it to the top?
That’s so good. I got chills on the last one. Right? Because it, like, brings in the competitive aspect, and it does so really art really artfully. Right? It’s not just like, crush your competitors.
Like, it’s not so, like, on the nose.
But but competition is a really good one when you can weave it in artfully, right?
Because that’s a really difficult one for people to own.
And I’ve never met anyone who was a hundred percent hundred percent altruistic and cooperative, right? It’s on a spectrum. It’s not like you’re either cooperative or competitive. It’s always on a spectrum. And even if you’re like eighty percent, you know, cooperative, rooting for everybody, there are these shadow parts of us that just want to win. Right?
For the most part, I don’t wanna overgeneralize. Right? So when you could speak to that, even if that’s, like, fifteen percent of who they are, right, or who they’re operating as, it’s such a charged fifteen percent.
And that’s what we’re looking for. Right? The charged part that’s really gonna make the decision.
So I guess my question is like, okay. Two parts. One, because I’m, like, writing about my own audience feels easy.
But do you have any tips for, like, is there a question you could ask in the voice of customer research or like teasing these out of other people’s audiences?
So one thing I mean, I I feel like I always return to this. Right? It’s the sales calls and the sales call recordings, and I’ve consulted with sales teams for, you know, the offers that I’m writing for. Mhmm.
So it’s like, first step, I’ll usually audit those calls. Right? And sometimes you’ll get a hint of that as like, well, why do you really want that? Why is that important? So kind of like those layers of why will sometimes reveal it.
Oftentimes, it’ll only partially reveal it, and then it’s my own kinda, like, empathetic nature, right, that will kinda read between the lines, right, of what they really want, right, but that they’re not actually saying.
So it’s rare that I’ll get this verbatim in VOC or an interview.
A lot of it will be, like, a person who said x, what do they really mean, and what do they really want? Right? And it’s me just kind of, like, bringing it to that level.
And that’s my favorite part about the research phase. Right? Like, it’s easy to get the stuff that’s verbatim. Right?
That’s already there. Right? I’m like, but what does this really mean? A person who said x, what are they really feeling but aren’t divulging?
And that’s usually where, the gold comes from. So, the short version of it is, yeah, sales calls, sales call audits, consulting with the sales team, even consulting with sometimes the customer service manager, if they’re really kind of, like, you know, involved day in and day out with, those students or with those clients, sometimes they’ll get that kind of rich detail that is, like, amazing. So even, like, thirty minutes or forty minutes with the customer success manager.
And they typically love being involved because marketing rarely loops them in even though they should be looped in. So yeah.
Okay. I can I can totally confirm that?
I’ve gotten some amazing insights from customer success Right.
That I never got from sales because they work with them long term. And so sometimes they can see those benefits play out and I never thought to bring in customer success.
I just brought her in because she was really smart and helpful and was was willing to talk to me, and Mhmm.
Like, she gave gold that I was never able to find in the discovery calls on Gong.
Yeah. That’s amazing.
Yeah.
And they yeah. They typically love being looped in because they just have so much to share and, like, no one listens.
Like, I once had a call that had, like, the head of sales, like, the director of sales and the director of customer, success, and, like, it’s like they barely talked to each other, right? I think that’s the first time they were in the same room, like in months, and they were learning things about each other’s departments in real time, and it was so cute. I’m like, Y’all don’t talk, ever?
Yeah. And there’s sort of a hierarchy within go to market teams, and it goes like, sales, customer success, marketing, sales engineer.
So, like, if you can talk to people lower down on the hierarchy, they’re more excited to Oh, totally.
Yeah. They’re like, my opinion matters. Yay. Yep. Exactly. Great point.
But the thing I just wanted to ask is, like, in I guess it’s similar to what, Naomi was asking, but, like, when you are dealing like, you know, on the online coaching space, there’s a whole, like, oh, but talking to pain points is yucky or, like, icky thing. Mhmm. Like, I guess I don’t know. I I don’t know what the question is there, but just I’m, like, getting customers or, like, clients on board with this. Like, have you ever had any pushback to somebody being, like, that’s too I don’t know. It makes the client uncomfortable to use these kind of techniques.
So the only time I’ve ever gotten pushback on this specific technique is when I personally overindulged and took it too far. Right?
Just because sometimes I enjoy writing shit. And I’m like, okay. Maybe this is a little too far from reality. Right?
And it needed to be reined in. Right? So it’s like, as much as possible, like, keep it once again within that threshold, right, of what is safe and appropriate for that industry and for that client and for their voice.
But, yeah, the only pushback I’ve ever got was when I took too many liberties on what was actually true and accurate and real. So you’re really trying to still keep it grounded in realism. Like, what is a person’s desires, like, legitimate desires for this, that they’re unlikely to be tuned into themselves or divulge even if it were true. Right?
But you don’t want to make assumptive leaps that are just too far out of reality. Right?
So it’s like in the example that you wrote, can you can you, like, read it out loud again?
Like, I just wanna Just the last one about out earning your early mentors.
Yep.
So that your nervous system finally recognizes unequivocally that you’ve made it to the top.
Yeah. Like, I don’t think you would get pushback on that cause that is such a legitimate desire, and you’re connecting it to overcoming that pain point of feeling anxious and destabilized in your career and your standing within it. Right? Like, and what you can do when you have pushback, right, is once again, like, you could link back that statement to voice of customer data that suggests that without saying it. Right? Like, someone who divulged this on the VOC or on this survey, they’re not saying this, but do you see the congruence, how someone who’s saying this would be experiencing this? Right?
So, yeah, I think, like, being being able to match match the shadow desire to what’s actually divulged and be like, no. This is actually is our data.
We’re just kind of revealing what isn’t being said or what’s being said between the lines.
Yeah. And how do you, well, it’s so powerful powerful because like everybody’s be everybody’s speaking to like, you want to make more money, but like, it’s really stand out to be like, we’ll be And, and we know that these are the reasons why.
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That that’s a really powerful exercise in kinda make more money offers, right, is, like, the why. Like, what happens when they make more money, right, versus just a claim of make more money or double your salary.
Like, once again, white noise, and it just doesn’t connect to the actual experience of having more money. Right? And typically, it comes back down to security and survival related things. Right? Most things go back to security and survival, and nervous system, you know, regulation, as you mentioned. So, yeah, really great conversation.
And how do you how do you make those judgment calls? Because I consider myself a pretty intuitive person. Mhmm. But making these kind of judgments for people, that you’ve never met, can be a very difficult exercise.
Yeah. So so intuitive leaps when necessary. Right? Obviously, we’re not going to be in constant conversation with the prospects we’re writing for. Right? Sometimes we’re literally just, like, dealing with the data and the survey results, and all we really have are the intuitive leaps we can make based on what we have.
My defense for that is, like, you know, transcribing BOC is really easy. Right? I could do that, and I want us to write a ten on ten sales piece here. Right?
I wanna write something that hits a point that no one else is hitting that could help that prospect, that one reader feel fully seen here where no one else is willing to see them. Right? Like, in Katie’s example, like, that reader and that prospect likely will never have seen an ad, an email, or a sales page, or a sales call, or been on a sales call that suggested this is about outpacing their mentors and finally feeling like they’ve made it. Right?
Like, they probably will not have seen that before. And therefore, when that hits, and if it’s true, you just formed a connection that is incredibly powerful there. Right? So there is an intuitive leap based on data and based on hypothesis, and it’s like this tracks, right?
Someone who said this tracks to someone who would have this desire, and I feel good making that leap and putting that on the page, right? And ultimately, that’s the artfulness of it, right? It’s like using your intuition wisely because to me, like, that is still where there’s so much magic in being a copywriter and being a marketer, right? Like, one day AI is going to have all, you know, all the information to just, like, spit it out, and that’s cool and that’s amazing, but where can we use our own kind of intuitiveness to connect us that aren’t so obvious?
Cool. Okay.
Yeah. That is not a dog. That is my child. Casey, we’re hearing that. Okay. Good.
Zoom noise cancellation.
Sweet. Comes in handy. Sweet. Any other questions or comments or thoughts?
I have a non training related question, but happy to defer until if there’s any other questions about the training.
Can I just ask, can you maybe give some throw out some examples of things that aren’t related to pride or maybe related to some of the other, vices?
So not related to pride? Yeah.
Because I feel like pride is an easy one to understand. I’m interested in how it applies to others.
Sure.
So it’s like let me pull back that slide.
I’m revisiting, like, the seven deadly sins is actually a really good idea. So Jo had a framework on that, I believe, like, a long, long, long time ago. I’d ask her if she can dig that back up.
I think it was her fascinations, the seven deadly sins one.
Maybe. Yeah. It’s familiar.
But, Yeah.
I’ve seen it. I just find it hard to apply. I think the concept is very cool, but execution, I find challenging.
Right. Cool. So pride is obvious.
I I use laziness all the time. I use that all the Mhmm. Often.
Mhmm.
Sloth, I guess, would be the technical sin.
Sure.
I think read is a really, really important one if you can, once again, mirror that artfully because that’s a really difficult one for people to believe is true about themselves.
So it’s kind of like, what does greed look like in a way that isn’t so spiky, right, and isn’t so difficult to accept. Right? Because in some ways, like, any make more money offer is somewhat greed based. Right?
And yet those who buy them don’t feel necessarily greedy in buying them, right, or wanting that.
So it’s like greed is where you kind of like when you’re suggesting out earning your mentors, right? That is essentially greed based, right? Greed and competition. I’m kind of like looping those in together right now.
And you make it totally acceptable because physiologically, that gives you a response that feels like you’re returning to safety, right, and turning to nervous system regulation and all those things. So, yeah, so pride, greed, lust, right?
I mean, there’s literal lust and there’s other forms of lust.
You know, kind of like the, you know, the fitness example I just brought, right? Wanting to be desired, wanting to be attractive, right? That is a form of lust.
You know, and it doesn’t even need to be a sexual lust, it could just be lusting to be liked, lusting for approval, right? So when we talked about the project manager, that is kind of a form of a lust for approval.
There we go.
Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.
So you’re saying essentially that a lot of it is the same desire sort of packaged in a different way.
Yep. Exactly. It kinda gets filtered through, like, these different lenses of these, you know, more shadowy motivations. Right? Or you can call them, like, the deadly sins.
Like, the difference between pride and lust being that pride emphasizes how good you are, and lust emphasizes how much other people envy how good you are. Mhmm.
Yep.
Yep. Okay.
That’d be a way to put it. So it’s like, that’d be a really cool exercise. Like, I’m just kinda visualizing the framework of, like, there’s desire, and then there’s, like, these seven different kind of filters it gets kind of put through and that can have the same idea articulated in seven different ways.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you.
Cool. Yeah. Thank you.
I think you’re good, Katie. Sorry.
Thank you, sir. You guys got totally wrapped up trying to remember all seven deadly sins.
But Haven’t you seen the movie seven?
The Bradford?
Yeah. That’s that’s my reference point, not not the Bible.
I I think that’s everyone’s reference point. It’s like and all I think of it is, like, Brad Pitt at the end with the box and, like, what’s he saying? What’s his famous line there?
I don’t remember.
Don’t know, but I was like, Brad. Yep.
What’s in the box? Yeah. I think it’s that. I don’t know.
Anyway.
So I had a client that I wrote a long form sales page for her hybrid course and coaching program.
And now she wants to launch just the course as a DIY downs well, I it’s not it so it was previously conceived as a downsell, but now she wants to launch that as a standalone offer.
Okay.
Like how and she’s she just emailed me saying, do is it a different sales page or do we just cut the group coaching components out of the existing sales page, which is a beast. Like, it’s like the longest sales page I’ve ever written in my life. So I’m curious to your thoughts on, like, a starting point for that.
Yeah. So she sold it as a downsell before. Right?
Yes. But only on a call. So she doesn’t offer that anywhere. And like, she hasn’t launched before. She just has, like, amazing SEO and she gets a tons of leads that way. So this would be her first launch style.
Yep.
The thing, of the DIY.
And it wouldn’t be within the context of them having, like, not bought, you know, the coaching package, right, or the coaching version. Like, this is really fully stand alone, even stand alone in the conversation. Right? Cool. I mean, if the sales page as it was written, speaks to everything that is still true about that audience, their desires, the problems that the product helps overcome, then I think the path of least resistance and even most effectiveness is just retooling that sales page to definitely remove anything that would be delivered only through coaching.
But, yeah, how do you feel about it?
Yeah, I I did like, I mean, definitely there’s gonna be chunks that need to go because, you know, she’s a, like, she’s a trained therapist. So we talked a lot about the benefits of like talking things through in that group container and everything.
Sure.
I guess, I’m just like, is it a different how much does it change the nature of the relationship? Like, I don’t I don’t know. I feel like because the the tone of the sales page was very much like, I’m gonna walk you through this and, you know, we’re gonna have all of these opportunities for feedback. And I’m I’m just wondering if it well, I guess if you’ve ever done anything like that before, like amending an existing sales page to pitch a slightly different version of the product?
Or if you would Yeah.
I haven’t I haven’t done that specific project before.
Yeah, kind of like definitely an accuracy sweep and an edit and a check, like, a hundred percent.
Even things that are implied or insinuated in terms of, like, the level of intimacy and feedback that they’re gonna have, I would definitely be mindful of that.
The things that are, in my view, like, definitely keepable, especially if the audience has resonated with them before and they’re accurate and true is anything that points to the desired outcomes and anything that points to the the current problem states and, you know, how that’s showing up for them. Like, all these things, if they’re accurate and they’ve been resonating, you can probably keep all of that. Right?
Testimonials might be something to, like, really, make sure you’re being accurate as much as possible. Like, try to get testimonials from those who have gone through the DIY. Right? Or if they’ve been private clients or the ones in, like, the coaching, container for it, I would just, like, make a note, right, like, you know, part of the the coaching container, right, to just not have that, yeah, that kind of, like, insinuation, right, that that’s an accurate kind of, like, one for one.
But, yeah, I think, like yeah. If you feel really good about how the copy presents and how it’s been resonating and the edit is a decent sized job, like, to be clear.
But yeah, I’ll just go for Yeah, go ahead.
At first I was thinking of pitching that in a day rate, but I actually feel like it might need the time and like repeated passes of a project versus trying to Yeah.
Okay.
Yep. Yeah.
Yep. I think so.
But what does that look like for you in terms of, like, the multiple passes?
Like, maybe we could just see Just like coming back to it, like, having more than a day to, like, kind of, like, leave it, come back and make sure that I haven’t missed something where they’re talking about a a call or a Yep.
I think, like, the first step of it would be to audit the current page. Right? Like, you know, yellow highlighters of, like, this has to go, this has to go, this has to go. Right?
Mhmm. Especially around, like, the languaging, as you said. And say that, like, in this filter and the sweep, I’m sweeping for x, y, and z. I’m sweeping for, like, accuracy.
What’s still going to be true for insinuation around intimacy and access. Right? So, like, kinda list the things you’re sweeping for and auditing for, make the check, and then kinda, like I would present that to her, right, and then say, like, my the next part of my sweep is to, like, remove these sections, make things more relevant and appropriate for the actual experience.
But, yeah, that’s not a one day thing. That’s multi stage, multi step. But, yep, I think yeah, that’s an interesting project. Keep me posted.
Cool.
I have a question. I’ve, I think I’ve asked this to Joe, but I’m interested to hear your opinion because I’m still struggling with it.
Okay.
In my area, meaning I work with mostly Israeli companies because I’ve been working in Israeli tech scene for five years, and so my whole network is here. Mhmm.
And I think that’s relevant because the Israeli tech scene is like, the whole tech scene is struggling, but Israel is struggling a little bit more because there’s less investments because of the ongoing war.
Sure.
So that means marketing budgets are even lower than they would be elsewhere.
Mhmm.
And so more and more companies that I talk to are cutting their paid media budget and putting more effort into social selling, meaning organic social media posts, but they’re calling it social selling because they’re putting a lot more of a strategic emphasis on it than they would have five years ago, or even three years ago.
So my background is more in acquisition, more in demand gen, optimizing landing pages, optimizing web copy, really very, very conversion focused. Mhmm. But the vast majority of people that I talk to are interested in more organic content.
Mhmm.
And so I’m wondering if it’s worth like, we don’t know what the future holds. Right? We can’t necessarily predict, where the market or where the geopolitical scene will be in the next six to twelve months.
But I’m grappling with the idea of, like, I’ve already taken on some of these clients, and I’ve learned a lot about these different forms of content.
I’m wondering how much should I be considering shifting my positioning as a company, to accommodate what I see as a shift in the market, or should I continue with this very conversion focused angle that I’ve been taking?
Yeah. That’s interesting. There’s, like, a few variables at play. Right? One of them you already kinda highlighted is, like, is this shift more kind of, like, temporary and seasonal and cyclical?
Or for all you know, right, or maybe once they’re in that, the ROI, right, is gonna be better than their other paid media channels, and they’re gonna wanna continue, amplifying that channel. So I think there’s variable number one is, like, how confident are you that the demand for that is going to continue and increase?
Right? Like, give that a confidence score on a scale of one to ten. Like, if it’s over seven, right, like, maybe yes or at least making that part of your official services and offerings, would be wise, especially if you think that they’re going to continue, wanting more of an organic presence, right, and more strategies around that.
The next variable I would consider is how necessary is it for you to position yourself as that to gain business in that? Because it sounds like those conversations are already happening just just like in your network, right? And that as long as you’re available to it, you’re going to get those projects anyway. So like, if that’s low importance, then I would wait a little bit, right? I wouldn’t, like, reposition yourself, so immediately. Like, wait to see where that trend line is heading, especially if you don’t need to reposition yourself to get that business, if that makes sense.
Yeah. That’s a really good point because it’s not like, like, it’s not goo Google is gonna disappear. Obviously not. Yeah.
Mhmm. But what I see is it’s becoming more and more common for, or it’s becoming more relevant for larger companies. So if you’re thinking in the VC world, you have series. Right?
Like, series a, series b, series c, series d.
And series a is, like, they still don’t they still haven’t finished building the product. Series b and c is, like, they’ve sort of hit product market bit, but they’re still growing. Series d and beyond is, like, they’ve got their shit together. They’re, like, they’re moving. Like, they have they have somewhat of a working workflow.
And I think that series d is sort of, like, seven hundred employees plus in mind. Right. Like, roughly speaking.
So it’s more like series d and up, where they’re really starting to ramp up their paid media channels. But by the time they reach that five, they probably have enough resources in house to manage that kind of CRO. And so, they’re not really looking to outsource it as much.
And so, I’ve gotten lots of job offers for that kind of position, but a lot newer freelancing the only really freelance opportunities I’ve got is from a reseller, actually, by Monday dot com.
So it’s a very, very different kind of company than the actual fast company.
Right.
And, obviously, the budget is small Sure. For paid media.
Mhmm.
Because if if it’s small, then there’s only so many landing pages they’re gonna have. They’re only gonna have, like, two, three campaigns.
Right.
But I think that I think it makes sense that, like, these because, especially, like, we talk a lot about, oh, am I a copywriter? Am I a conversion? Like but, like, clients don’t care about that language. Like, especially in a non English speaking they just give us content.
Like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, content is content. And content is emails and content is social and content is blog. Like, they they don’t think that way.
I’m actively imagining my Israeli uncle responding to that conversation right now in his very Israeli uncle y voice. Yeah.
Exactly. Like, there’s no word for copywriter in Hebrew. It’s.
What is this? I don’t care. I don’t care.
Exactly. Okay. You got it. You got it.
I get it.
Yeah.
Right. Yeah. So I think that that’s how, like it’s helpful to think, like, if you have to make that dilution, you don’t necessarily have to make it now.
Mhmm.
Is what I’m taking from that.
Yep. Exactly.
Does that, give you something to move with or feel a little bit more sweet?
Awesome. Yeah.
I would add on to that too. It’s also, you know, instead of changing positioning, it’s you’re it’s more like, you know, the right thing to do at the right time and you’re responsive and savvy to what’s going on. You know? Does that make sense?
I mean, look, a girl’s gotta eat. Sometimes you just gotta take the grudges to come to you.
I know how savvy it is, or it’s just like, you know, I wanna Making sure you can eat is savvy.
Not that I owe my last dollar, but, like, I’m not at the point where I’m regularly turning away large amounts of work.
Awesome.
Cool. We feeling good for today?
Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Well, enjoy your long weekends for those taking long weekends.
I’m really hungry now all of a sudden. I’ll just talk about Chipotle and eating and, yeah, that’s my plan. So, yeah, catch you all on Slack. Hit me up if you have any follow-up questions on this as you begin to consider it or implement it.
Definitely here for it. Cool. Thanks, everybody. Take care. Bye.
Thank you.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
Awesome. So this is part two of this Deep Craft inner authority, series.
This one is called shadow copy, how to balance virtuous and forbidden desire to elicit your prospects. Full range of f yet, I need this. So this is one that I’ve been, like, saving to teach somewhere for probably at least a year. And I’m like, who can I teach this to? Like, who’s already got a lot of the basics, the foundations and even the intermediate stuff, lockdown, and it’s ripe to talk about some advanced stuff that we just don’t get to talk about very often. So, yeah, I’m excited to share this one. This is part two, part one.
For those who haven’t seen it yet, that was last month, Deep VOC three piercing questions to go beneath the surface.
Not a prerequisite for it, but definitely related. And today’s is shadow copy, and we’ll see if there’s a part three, at some other point. But I love just going into the deeper, more nuanced stuff that is highly practical that just doesn’t get a lot of airtime. So, yeah, that’s kinda my thing, and happy to geek out on all that anywhere.
Slack, call me up, email me. Let’s Zoom. Let’s nerd out on weird deep inner authority stuff that, yeah, no one else really likes to geek out on. So, who is the inner authority?
To me, like, I’ve just defined this nice and simply as, one who knows the prospect better than they know themselves. That is typically the feedback I get when a page does really, really well. It’s like, oh my goodness. You know me better than I know myself.
And what it’s really achieving is it’s exposing and illuminating that which the prospect is unable or unwilling to divulge or articulate themselves. So that’s kind of the mechanism of it.
And what it achieves, it builds trust and resonance through the damn, are you in my head phenomenon or effect.
That’s what I aim to get to, in pretty much everything I write. And it makes sure that your one reader is fully seen on the page or at least more seen than anywhere else on the Internet or than any other competitor is willing to see them.
So that’s a term that gets talked about a lot. It’s like, make sure they’re seen on the page. And I actually wanted to unpack that a little and go a little deeper. What does it actually mean to have your prospect fully seen?
Well, it partly means to have their full range of desires mirrored. That means more than this. Right? To be seen on page also involves their problem, right, their stakes, their situation, their context, all that other stuff.
But in terms of desires, there’s a full range of desire and motivation.
In my view, only one and two really get the most, real estate on a page or explored in one’s research. So these four layers are they’re socially acceptable desires, they’re known and they’re owned desires. So the stuff they know about themselves. This is why I desire this. This is something I’m willing to own and something I’m willing to share.
But everybody, without exception, I would say, I would dare to say, has secret desires and secret motivations, things that they wouldn’t want to say out loud or even confess to themselves. Right? Disowned desires or even unknown desires, things they haven’t even, contemplated about themselves around why they might want something or why they might want to achieve something. So three and four, definitely in that darker, lesser known, disowned territory.
And as a marketer or copywriter, number one and two are really easy to gather and mirror on the page. Right? They appear readily in the VOC and surveys and interviews and message mining because they are known, they are owned, they are socially acceptable, people feel cool and even good in divulging them. So that’s cool.
Number one and two are easy. We got that on lock. Number three and four, more rare, but I would argue definitely no less powerful and maybe even more powerful. Right?
There’s kind of this operating theory that that which gets disowned may have greater pull. Right? And people may not even know why these things pull them. But three and four, definitely strong strong strong motivators.
The unknown, the disowned, and the less socially acceptable desire. So I’m gonna give you a little story from a past life. Two thousand six, two thousand seven, one of my first jobs, like, after I quit corporate life was a personal trainer at a gym.
And one of my roles was to, get people to move from thirty dollars a month memberships to personal training packages. And, you know, very typical sales script, like, what’s your motivation? What are you doing this for?
And almost universally, this is more common in men, actually. Like, men in their thirties and forties, they would say, I just wanna stay in shape. Right? I just wanna maintain. I just want to, yeah, I just want to stay in shape. Right? That was the common language that we almost knew would come without exception.
And it’s easy to sell a thirty dollar per month membership to someone who wants to stay in shape. It’s really difficult to sell a higher ticket, package, right, to someone who just wants to stay in shape. There’s not a lot of charge or a lot of juice behind that motivation. There’s not a lot of stakes behind that motivation. There’s not a lot of drive behind that motivation.
And me and the gym owner and manager and the other people, you know, on the floor and trainers We constantly have these conversations of, like, how do we get people to actually own a wider and a deeper breadth of desire?
And I think I came up with eight words, right, that I just kind of blurted out randomly that became part of our script. Like, it’s cool if you just want to look good. Right? Like eight words.
That’s it. And whenever we would catch someone who wouldn’t own that full desire, that that became part of the script. It’s cool if you just want to look good. Right?
Like, that’s totally acceptable and a fair motivation for doing this. And that would totally flip the conversation because we were taking the lead in owning this disowned desire for them. We made it safe. We gave them permission to actually say what they wanted, maybe even what they were thinking, but didn’t wanna be judged for claiming as a desire.
So all this to say, people are far, far, far, like, I Yeah. I think I put it in caps. Good. I put it in caps because they are far more willing and capable of sharing virtuous and socially accepted politically correct desires than they are. They’re disowned motivators that may actually be driving the decision.
So one thing that we could do as marketers, as copywriters, as salespeople, and offer creators is to give our one reader a permission slip for the full spectrum of their desires. Right? This is a gift we get to give them. Right? It’s cool if this is what you want. It’s cool if this is your main desire driving this decision.
So we claim it on the page for them or the sales call so that they don’t have to so that they can remain in their virtuous, you know, acceptable version of themselves while feeling like our offer and what we’re, enrolling them into, is all inclusive of that more shadowy desire. Does that make sense? Because I’m throwing a lot of terms really quickly. Cool.
Sweet. So let’s do a deeper dive into this topic, shadow desires and virtual desires. So what is the source? Where are these desires coming from?
Shadow desire, you know, the deep, unknown, underworld, subconscious, ego, typically a shadow drive, right? A drive to be better, to be richer, to be more resourced, to look better, to win over. It’s very competition based. It’s very comparative.
It’s rooted in identities they’ve already lived and motivations they’ve already experienced and therefore have a high degree of charge around. Whereas a virtuous desire, they haven’t really lived that person yet. It’s who they’d like to be. It may be an aspirational ideal, but there’s no experiential data and therefore less charge, less emotionality to that virtuous desire.
And if emotions drive decisions, there’s going to be far, far, far, far more stuff driving the decision in that shadow desire.
The orientations of it. Right? The orientation of the shadow desire is typically more selfish. Right?
How it benefits me, how it puts me at an advantage over others. Once again, very competitive based, even zero sum based. I remember, one of my first really big clients in the copywriting space was to write a launch. And it was one of the first times I quoted a really big package to do the full spectrum of a launch.
And he was saying the whole time, I just want to hire the best. I just want to have the best launch. I just really want to blow this out of the water, right? You know?
And, like, I asked him, like, why is this important to you? Right? Like, because it felt like there’s a lot of charge there beyond just the business doing well.
Right? And his desire was, I don’t like the people who are essentially owning this space right now. I feel like my stuff is better, and my end result is I I wanna be ahead of them in a year from now. I want my name to be the household name in this space.
Right? Competition based. Right? And it took him a while to own that and to state that and to admit to that.
But that was what was driving him signing off on a big copywriting project on the first launch he was doing on a program. So these things are at play, and they don’t necessarily need to be unearthed in every conversation, but we can mirror it on the page in our copy.
Orientation for virtuous desire, typically, it’s going to be altruistic, right, where they’re kind of deflecting it for someone else, for the greater good, for their families.
And there’s truth to this, but it’s not the totality of truth.
Riskiness, right? To own and to admit a shadow desire tends to have a high degree of risk, right? You kind of risk being judged, right? Because these aren’t things that people typically state out loud, right?
These are things that get filtered. And almost rightfully so, it’s really difficult to maintain great friendships and relationships if if you go around talking about your shadow desires. So, high risk in them owning it, and therefore, what a relief when it’s on the page and they don’t have to own it and claim it for themselves. Virtual desire, virtually no risk at all.
Right? They almost look good and sanitized, right, in claiming just their virtual virtuous desire.
Awareness on a shadow desire, it could be totally disowned, or it could be unknown completely, and we’re the first ones to really make them say, you’re right. That is why I want that.
Virtuous desire is something that is readily owned and already there within awareness. So when we’re talking about a sales page or an email that really captivates and draws an interest and intrigue, if we’re mirroring back something that’s already known to them, that’s great. They feel seen on the page. But if we’re the ones to expose a part of them, it’s like, oh, shit. That is there. Right?
Now we’ve really hooked them in on something cool and interesting. So awareness, typically disowned on a shadow desire. Permission, certainly less permissible for them to own a shadow desire or admit to it. High permission, full permission, unvirtuous.
Core emotions, typically on a shadow desire, we’re working in the realms of lust, greed, pride, competition, retribution. Right? Show them, get back at them, prove something to somebody, virtuous desire, joy, love, and cooperation. So there’s a lot going on here.
You can screenshot it, just as a reference point.
But this comes into, yeah, full clarity when we actually start looking at examples, and it’s pretty simple to pull off once you start getting the hang of it.
So examples.
I just kinda crafted this one because I know Abby was working with, a bookkeeper, a client who is working with bookkeepers to leave their nine to five, start a profitable business. So this is like this could apply to anything that teaches people to go freelance. Right? So shadow desire, maybe to be crazy rich, be better than those stuck in the nine to five.
Right? How many people wanna go freelance and feel like they’re getting ahead of the people who aren’t there yet? Right? That is so out there and so rarely claimed.
Right? Give the proverbial f u to a boss that they hate, that always makes makes them work late, and slacks them on the weekend while they’re on family time. So all this would be in the realm of shadow desire.
Virtuous desire, this is what you’ll typically find right in the VOC, right, or on an interview, you know, to provide more for their family, to double their salary, enjoy a flexible schedule that allows them to pick up their kids from school at lunch and take them to Chipotle for a burrito. We don’t have Chipotle in Canada. So I kind of, like, always talk about Chipotle because it’s one of my personal personal unlived desires for more Chipotle in my life. So anyway, just keeps making its way there.
Fitness coach, right? Same thing.
Like virtuous desire, stay in shape. Like, those were the three dreaded words. Being able to play with my kids without getting tired. That is another one, like, you hear all the time.
Get a stamp of approval on annual health checks. Right? All virtuous desires shadow desires. Right? They wanna turn heads, you know, be attractive, all these things that, like, are right there that they just don’t want to claim. So this is really how it works, balancing out the shadow desires and the virtuous desires.
And the problem with virtuous desires is it leaves a whole lot left to be desired. It is incomplete. It is not entirely true. It’s only what our social selves want others to know about our motivations, but that we know is not our true or our complete motivation. So our job as marketers, just because our prospect is leaving it out doesn’t mean we should leave it out as well. So a simple template bringing this all into practice, for weaving in the shadow and virtuous desires.
Really simple. So this is a piece of copy you could put in your moment of highest tension section of the fifteen or sorry, moment of highest pleasure section of the fifteen point sales page in a day formula if you’re using, that template from ten x sales pages or in the desire section within any ADA formula you’re using. This would be something to weave into the desire section.
And it’s simple. So it’s not just about, you know, shadow desire one, two, or three. Right? Or or it’s not about forbidden one, two, or three.
And then validate it. Right? Say, it’s totally cool. If that’s what you’re striving for, we’ll stand with you in that.
Right? So give them permission. That’s the permission slip.
And then say it’s about virtuous desire one, two, three, so that. So it’s kind of a sandwich there. Right? You’re introducing the shadow desires and saying it’s not just about that.
You’re validating it for them, permission slip, and then leaving the desire off. So the last thing you write is the things that they want to feel, like those were their, driving motivations. So let’s look at an example.
So back to the fitness one.
So this is not just about, you know, the shadow desires of filling your iPhone’s camera roll with shirtless gym selfies and loving what you see, and it’s definitely not about the secret satisfaction you’ll get and being the only dad at the camping trip rocking a six pack instead of binge drinking ruined. That reads a little weird, but it makes sense. But hey, don’t let anyone judge your motivations for getting healthy. We’ll celebrate you and whatever gets you moving.
And then the virtual virtuous ones. But at its core, this program is about feeling more strong, vital, and confident in in your body at forty than you did at twenty, setting an exam setting an epic example for your kids and knowing that you’ve set yourself up to stay lean, fit, and healthy while most succumb to a state of slow and controlled erosion. So, you honor the shadow desires. You give them the permission slip, and then you tell them what it’s really about in a way that they would feel good and virtuous in enrolling.
So that’s what it looks like. Very simple, worksheet for you. It’s really just listing what the acceptable, safe, virtuous desires are, listing the forbidden ones.
And this can come through your VOC, it can come through your interviews, or it could come what you believe would be true and lurking, beneath the surface, just based on your knowledge of your audience.
And then essentially, craft it into this formula. Right? It’s not just about shadow one, shadow two, shadow three. Validate it and then share it’s about those virtuous desires.
And just see what that looks like and how that reads as a desire section, on a sales page, on an email, and test it out. You might be surprised in how it flows and just the responses you get, once your reader feels more fully seen on the page. So I think that’s all we got. Twenty minutes.
I’m getting good at these short presentations.
Sort of.
Cool. Any questions, thoughts, comments? We could definitely continue the conversation if y’all have further thoughts on how to elaborate on that or how you might see it applying for the work you do.
I have a question.
Mhmm.
It’s gonna be the same question probably that I ask you every time. Yes. But there was a very, very brief moment in time when my boss didn’t really, supervise me that much. So I was able to try more creative things, but nothing as creative as this because anytime you try to introduce this negative language in SaaS, you get hit with a that’s going to make people feel bad.
So my question is, how do you water this down? I And you’re you’re not gonna like to to answer this kind of question. But what kind of ways could you water this down so it’s still palatable for more of a corporate audience?
Yeah. So it’s a spectrum. Right? I think, like, the core of this is, like, what are the desires that are just a little less safe than the safe ones.
Right? And that are true most of all. Right? So it’s like, there’s no part of this that is shaming or making them feel bad, right?
It’s just saying this isn’t just about X, Y, and Z, and those X, Y, and Zs are the things that they actually want, that the reader really, really wants.
So you’re disowning that desire with them, right, and then wrapping it up with the things that are more acceptable.
So I wouldn’t go extreme with it. I wouldn’t use languaging, especially on the darker, more competitive edges of being so much better than someone else. You could definitely rein in that language.
But what are some of those things that they want that they’re kind of afraid to admit out loud, right? And see what’s a safe version of that, like the five on ten. If the virtuous desires are the one on ten on safety, just make the shadow desires a three or four on ten and see if you can push the envelope to that level.
So what might you say for somebody who’s a middle manager? Because that’s gonna be, like, the most typical audience. Like, a middle manager in sales, or a middle manager in project management or whatever it might be? What’s what might be language that you could use for them? Because nine times out of ten, that’s the person I’m talking to.
Yeah. So, like, what do they want out of the product? Like, what are they buying it for?
Usually, to have more efficiency, more control over their team, get rid of admin, make things more efficient. This is very generally speaking for a variety of different companies, but that’s sort of the concept.
So yeah.
Like, and what does it look like once those are achieved? Right? Is there, like do they get kinda, like, a special bonus on that? Do they get to, wrap up their days earlier because efficiency is in place and admin tasks are off their plate?
Right? So, like, that would be and I’m not saying that this is the accurate desire, but it would be like, this isn’t just about, you know, getting, you know, a glowing review from your, you know, higher ups, and getting to check out on weekends because everything is fully dialed in. Right? And enjoying your, you know, workout without being tethered to your phone.
Right? However that appears for them. This is about x, y, and z. So, like, the shadow desires are still in that play it safe range.
They’re just really kind of like giving a bit more of their selfish motivations, right, versus the altruistic or the company and for the team motivations, if that makes sense.
Okay. Especially if they’re the the decision maker. Right? To get them in touch with some of their more personal, quote unquote, selfish motivations without making them feel selfish for wanting it. Like, that’s the key for it. Make them feel like this will help them achieve what they really want selfishly without them having to feel selfish for wanting it, if that makes sense.
Interesting.
So let’s take let’s take a monday dot com example because that’s the most well known. Monday dot com being a competitor of Asana and Trello and Wrike, and all these other project management tools.
Instead of saying something along the lines of, if you have a spreadsheet with seventeen tabs open and you are tired of reading through long in long email threads, and you feel overwhelmed, or the reverse, the virtuous, which would be you can be a better team manager and help your team members and be more efficient and hit more business goals.
What would sort of be the middle ground there?
So project manager. Right? Like, so so I’ve worked with many project managers, like, who’ve managed me as a copywriter, right, both, you know, internally and also, like, I’ve worked closely with project managers on teams I’ve kinda, like, implanted myself into during bigger launches.
And, you know, one piece of feedback, like, I’ve given project managers who are really dialed in, right, and really streamlined on their process and systems is, like, you know, no project I’ve been on has ever run more smoothly. Right? Like, that’s the feedback they love getting. Like, be the project manager that every freelancer loves working with, right?
That taps into their sense of pride, right? Pride being one of those emotions we talked about for shadow desires.
So pride is a good one to work with as well, because it’s a little more acceptable than competitiveness You don’t need to always go to competitiveness.
But what would make that project manager who’s using Monday feel really good about themselves? Like when they go home and they have dinner with their partner or their spouse, what are they saying? Like, so and so said this about me. Right?
And they’re confiding that to their spouse because that’s that feels safe. Right? But how can we incorporate that into our copy, if that makes sense?
So, like, just what are those little moments that you can Yeah.
It almost sounds like you’re like, all of the benefits that you typically see on a sales page, like, be more efficient, get more ROI, be a better be a better manager. It’s almost like instead of saying, like, the actual benefit, say, be the person that people say this about.
Yeah. Exactly.
Benefit, but just Yeah. Framed it.
Because that’s what they really want. Right? That they can’t say out loud. Yeah. Yeah.
That is a very cool point.
Mhmm. Yep. And you can make the language as, like, safe as it needs to be for any industry. It’s just really about the, quote, unquote, more selfish, personally driven desires for the thing.
Okay. I like it.
Cool.
I have a quest a question.
Let me come on camera. Sorry. So so talking about that and, you know, safe language and and how to weave this in. So assuming you have, like, a big tech you know, like, enterprise tech. Right?
Mhmm.
This is not something where we’re you’re doing sales letter type stuff, and it’s a it’s a they they they live in a completely different universe, and it’s a little bit more buttoned up. So Of course. But I have this situation where I have a product. And the thing is people are really afraid of if they choose the wrong vendor, they’re gonna lose their job, you know, because it’s a it’s a mission critical service.
Right.
So how how have you ever had a situation where you’re working in something like that? Because that’s really what is going on under the surface. They’re they’re, you know, they’re afraid of of they’re afraid of losing their job if they choose the wrong company.
Mhmm. And what’s the upside if they choose the right company?
That’s a good question. I hadn’t you know?
I I guess I’ve been worrying about, like, how to get past this fear that they have of choosing.
Mhmm. It’s that it’s that old thing of, like, you know, nobody ever got fired for hiring IBM. You know? Yeah.
That Right.
The upside would be that nothing happens, really. It’s quiet and everything works well.
I mean, you know, no more no more support calls, no more, you know, emergency meetings because some country is having lag time or whatever.
Yep. For sure.
I mean, this copyright, I’m guessing, like, the one making the decision, right, their main desire is simply to make the right decision, right, in this case. Right?
It it is. Yeah. Yeah. It is. I I mean, some of there’s a certain sub sub segment that’s motivated by, you know, being cutting edge and being on the bleeding edge with technology and doing the latest and greatest thing.
Yeah.
But that’s that’s a certain percentage.
You know, those are the people that tend to those would be, I’d say, like, the ideal customer avatar. You know? The ones that are that wanna be on the bleeding edge are the ones that are an easier sell.
Yep.
It’s the question is how to get those other ones.
Yeah.
Yeah. I’d say, like, this copy is definitely or this kind of format and template is definitely meant for a specific context where the one reading it is the one who stands to benefit, right, and therefore they’re owning their desires, how would we work that principle, right, into, into that enterprise environment? That’s a great conversation. Right?
I think it’s, like, just wherever we can identify any desires that they haven’t claimed yet. Right? And this is mostly going to come out in kinda like the one to one communication, I’m guessing. Right?
Not necessarily on, like, the page.
Yeah. Like, I think I think a fair question is, like, what does it look like when you’ve made the right decision? Right? Like, how is that celebrated? Like, how do you feel when like, maybe it’s literally just watching the new new tech be integrated and having a sense of pride in it, right, that they let it, that they champion it. Right?
Getting to talk about that, right, that they kind of, like, championed and spearheaded this new initiative. Right? So it’s probably more pride, I would say.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Pride that their due diligence and their decision was behind, you know, a multi six figure, you know, reconfiguration of something. Right? And getting to watch that in real time as it gets kind of implemented. So I would tap into the pride aspects, and, yeah, have that conversation, like, with that kind of audience of, How does this actually play out in real time?
And what are the moments within that that feel really good, really validating? So I think feeling validated is also really important for people, you know, in that position because validation brings the security that they really want. Right? That they’ve really cemented their place within the organization because of this thing that they helped, you know, usher in.
So I suppose, you know, performance KPIs would would be something that would be a a tangible outcome, you know? And that’s not like an ROI thing. It’s like a, you know, uptime performance and stuff like that. So technical those technical performance KPIs, I guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. That makes sense. I think, like, the simplest version of it, and every context has its own nuances. Right?
Mhmm. Yeah. Especially in what that person could admit at lab. Right? A middle manager who’s making that decision might not even answer the question of, like, you know, why do they really desire to do this?
I mean, this would be a VP or a c level person.
You know? A CTO, CIO, the Yeah.
Director of engineering, that kind of Yep.
You know?
Yeah. I think, like, for what a successful decision and implementation means for them in their career and their sense of pride in their position pride in their position and also, like, cementing their status in the organization is probably probably gonna be something to play with, and it’s very nuanced in how you communicate.
Sort of like be the one be the one responsible for for your company’s zero downtime or something like that. Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, a headline that comes to mind. Right? And I’m not saying that we use headlines in this context, but it would be kinda like, you know, you know, this will be on your LinkedIn profile by June, right? Like some big thing that they led. Like that’s what they would be doing with you. Exactly.
Yeah. Like imagine this on your LinkedIn profile, right? Yeah.
So yeah, pride and accomplishment. Definitely play with those two.
Okay. Thank you.
What comes out of it. Thank you.
Hey, Ryan. I have a question. I feel like I work, you know, with, like, the coaches and and course creators where you might have already used this.
I like, I, I really like this technique. Just writing down like the seven deadly thins as ideas for places to find, the shadow desires.
But I guess, like, in the context of helping people make money online Mhmm. Like, is so the shadow desire in that is what they’re gonna do with the money or what they will be able It’s why they want it.
Why they want it. Okay. So I wrote I wrote the three that I came up with were like, this isn’t just about making yourself so personally secure that if your partner emptied your bank accounts and walked out the door tomorrow, you’d be like, solid for the next six months?
Yeah.
Having a program that your clients save rave so much about, they’re even talking about it inside other people’s coaching containers. Mhmm.
I don’t know. That one fell down. I was like, and out earning your early mentors so that your nervous system finally recognizes unequivocally that you’ve made it to the top?
That’s so good. I got chills on the last one. Right? Because it, like, brings in the competitive aspect, and it does so really art really artfully. Right? It’s not just like, crush your competitors.
Like, it’s not so, like, on the nose.
But but competition is a really good one when you can weave it in artfully, right?
Because that’s a really difficult one for people to own.
And I’ve never met anyone who was a hundred percent hundred percent altruistic and cooperative, right? It’s on a spectrum. It’s not like you’re either cooperative or competitive. It’s always on a spectrum. And even if you’re like eighty percent, you know, cooperative, rooting for everybody, there are these shadow parts of us that just want to win. Right?
For the most part, I don’t wanna overgeneralize. Right? So when you could speak to that, even if that’s, like, fifteen percent of who they are, right, or who they’re operating as, it’s such a charged fifteen percent.
And that’s what we’re looking for. Right? The charged part that’s really gonna make the decision.
So I guess my question is like, okay. Two parts. One, because I’m, like, writing about my own audience feels easy.
But do you have any tips for, like, is there a question you could ask in the voice of customer research or like teasing these out of other people’s audiences?
So one thing I mean, I I feel like I always return to this. Right? It’s the sales calls and the sales call recordings, and I’ve consulted with sales teams for, you know, the offers that I’m writing for. Mhmm.
So it’s like, first step, I’ll usually audit those calls. Right? And sometimes you’ll get a hint of that as like, well, why do you really want that? Why is that important? So kind of like those layers of why will sometimes reveal it.
Oftentimes, it’ll only partially reveal it, and then it’s my own kinda, like, empathetic nature, right, that will kinda read between the lines, right, of what they really want, right, but that they’re not actually saying.
So it’s rare that I’ll get this verbatim in VOC or an interview.
A lot of it will be, like, a person who said x, what do they really mean, and what do they really want? Right? And it’s me just kind of, like, bringing it to that level.
And that’s my favorite part about the research phase. Right? Like, it’s easy to get the stuff that’s verbatim. Right?
That’s already there. Right? I’m like, but what does this really mean? A person who said x, what are they really feeling but aren’t divulging?
And that’s usually where, the gold comes from. So, the short version of it is, yeah, sales calls, sales call audits, consulting with the sales team, even consulting with sometimes the customer service manager, if they’re really kind of, like, you know, involved day in and day out with, those students or with those clients, sometimes they’ll get that kind of rich detail that is, like, amazing. So even, like, thirty minutes or forty minutes with the customer success manager.
And they typically love being involved because marketing rarely loops them in even though they should be looped in. So yeah.
Okay. I can I can totally confirm that?
I’ve gotten some amazing insights from customer success Right.
That I never got from sales because they work with them long term. And so sometimes they can see those benefits play out and I never thought to bring in customer success.
I just brought her in because she was really smart and helpful and was was willing to talk to me, and Mhmm.
Like, she gave gold that I was never able to find in the discovery calls on Gong.
Yeah. That’s amazing.
Yeah.
And they yeah. They typically love being looped in because they just have so much to share and, like, no one listens.
Like, I once had a call that had, like, the head of sales, like, the director of sales and the director of customer, success, and, like, it’s like they barely talked to each other, right? I think that’s the first time they were in the same room, like in months, and they were learning things about each other’s departments in real time, and it was so cute. I’m like, Y’all don’t talk, ever?
Yeah. And there’s sort of a hierarchy within go to market teams, and it goes like, sales, customer success, marketing, sales engineer.
So, like, if you can talk to people lower down on the hierarchy, they’re more excited to Oh, totally.
Yeah. They’re like, my opinion matters. Yay. Yep. Exactly. Great point.
But the thing I just wanted to ask is, like, in I guess it’s similar to what, Naomi was asking, but, like, when you are dealing like, you know, on the online coaching space, there’s a whole, like, oh, but talking to pain points is yucky or, like, icky thing. Mhmm. Like, I guess I don’t know. I I don’t know what the question is there, but just I’m, like, getting customers or, like, clients on board with this. Like, have you ever had any pushback to somebody being, like, that’s too I don’t know. It makes the client uncomfortable to use these kind of techniques.
So the only time I’ve ever gotten pushback on this specific technique is when I personally overindulged and took it too far. Right?
Just because sometimes I enjoy writing shit. And I’m like, okay. Maybe this is a little too far from reality. Right?
And it needed to be reined in. Right? So it’s like, as much as possible, like, keep it once again within that threshold, right, of what is safe and appropriate for that industry and for that client and for their voice.
But, yeah, the only pushback I’ve ever got was when I took too many liberties on what was actually true and accurate and real. So you’re really trying to still keep it grounded in realism. Like, what is a person’s desires, like, legitimate desires for this, that they’re unlikely to be tuned into themselves or divulge even if it were true. Right?
But you don’t want to make assumptive leaps that are just too far out of reality. Right?
So it’s like in the example that you wrote, can you can you, like, read it out loud again?
Like, I just wanna Just the last one about out earning your early mentors.
Yep.
So that your nervous system finally recognizes unequivocally that you’ve made it to the top.
Yeah. Like, I don’t think you would get pushback on that cause that is such a legitimate desire, and you’re connecting it to overcoming that pain point of feeling anxious and destabilized in your career and your standing within it. Right? Like, and what you can do when you have pushback, right, is once again, like, you could link back that statement to voice of customer data that suggests that without saying it. Right? Like, someone who divulged this on the VOC or on this survey, they’re not saying this, but do you see the congruence, how someone who’s saying this would be experiencing this? Right?
So, yeah, I think, like, being being able to match match the shadow desire to what’s actually divulged and be like, no. This is actually is our data.
We’re just kind of revealing what isn’t being said or what’s being said between the lines.
Yeah. And how do you, well, it’s so powerful powerful because like everybody’s be everybody’s speaking to like, you want to make more money, but like, it’s really stand out to be like, we’ll be And, and we know that these are the reasons why.
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That that’s a really powerful exercise in kinda make more money offers, right, is, like, the why. Like, what happens when they make more money, right, versus just a claim of make more money or double your salary.
Like, once again, white noise, and it just doesn’t connect to the actual experience of having more money. Right? And typically, it comes back down to security and survival related things. Right? Most things go back to security and survival, and nervous system, you know, regulation, as you mentioned. So, yeah, really great conversation.
And how do you how do you make those judgment calls? Because I consider myself a pretty intuitive person. Mhmm. But making these kind of judgments for people, that you’ve never met, can be a very difficult exercise.
Yeah. So so intuitive leaps when necessary. Right? Obviously, we’re not going to be in constant conversation with the prospects we’re writing for. Right? Sometimes we’re literally just, like, dealing with the data and the survey results, and all we really have are the intuitive leaps we can make based on what we have.
My defense for that is, like, you know, transcribing BOC is really easy. Right? I could do that, and I want us to write a ten on ten sales piece here. Right?
I wanna write something that hits a point that no one else is hitting that could help that prospect, that one reader feel fully seen here where no one else is willing to see them. Right? Like, in Katie’s example, like, that reader and that prospect likely will never have seen an ad, an email, or a sales page, or a sales call, or been on a sales call that suggested this is about outpacing their mentors and finally feeling like they’ve made it. Right?
Like, they probably will not have seen that before. And therefore, when that hits, and if it’s true, you just formed a connection that is incredibly powerful there. Right? So there is an intuitive leap based on data and based on hypothesis, and it’s like this tracks, right?
Someone who said this tracks to someone who would have this desire, and I feel good making that leap and putting that on the page, right? And ultimately, that’s the artfulness of it, right? It’s like using your intuition wisely because to me, like, that is still where there’s so much magic in being a copywriter and being a marketer, right? Like, one day AI is going to have all, you know, all the information to just, like, spit it out, and that’s cool and that’s amazing, but where can we use our own kind of intuitiveness to connect us that aren’t so obvious?
Cool. Okay.
Yeah. That is not a dog. That is my child. Casey, we’re hearing that. Okay. Good.
Zoom noise cancellation.
Sweet. Comes in handy. Sweet. Any other questions or comments or thoughts?
I have a non training related question, but happy to defer until if there’s any other questions about the training.
Can I just ask, can you maybe give some throw out some examples of things that aren’t related to pride or maybe related to some of the other, vices?
So not related to pride? Yeah.
Because I feel like pride is an easy one to understand. I’m interested in how it applies to others.
Sure.
So it’s like let me pull back that slide.
I’m revisiting, like, the seven deadly sins is actually a really good idea. So Jo had a framework on that, I believe, like, a long, long, long time ago. I’d ask her if she can dig that back up.
I think it was her fascinations, the seven deadly sins one.
Maybe. Yeah. It’s familiar.
But, Yeah.
I’ve seen it. I just find it hard to apply. I think the concept is very cool, but execution, I find challenging.
Right. Cool. So pride is obvious.
I I use laziness all the time. I use that all the Mhmm. Often.
Mhmm.
Sloth, I guess, would be the technical sin.
Sure.
I think read is a really, really important one if you can, once again, mirror that artfully because that’s a really difficult one for people to believe is true about themselves.
So it’s kind of like, what does greed look like in a way that isn’t so spiky, right, and isn’t so difficult to accept. Right? Because in some ways, like, any make more money offer is somewhat greed based. Right?
And yet those who buy them don’t feel necessarily greedy in buying them, right, or wanting that.
So it’s like greed is where you kind of like when you’re suggesting out earning your mentors, right? That is essentially greed based, right? Greed and competition. I’m kind of like looping those in together right now.
And you make it totally acceptable because physiologically, that gives you a response that feels like you’re returning to safety, right, and turning to nervous system regulation and all those things. So, yeah, so pride, greed, lust, right?
I mean, there’s literal lust and there’s other forms of lust.
You know, kind of like the, you know, the fitness example I just brought, right? Wanting to be desired, wanting to be attractive, right? That is a form of lust.
You know, and it doesn’t even need to be a sexual lust, it could just be lusting to be liked, lusting for approval, right? So when we talked about the project manager, that is kind of a form of a lust for approval.
There we go.
Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.
So you’re saying essentially that a lot of it is the same desire sort of packaged in a different way.
Yep. Exactly. It kinda gets filtered through, like, these different lenses of these, you know, more shadowy motivations. Right? Or you can call them, like, the deadly sins.
Like, the difference between pride and lust being that pride emphasizes how good you are, and lust emphasizes how much other people envy how good you are. Mhmm.
Yep.
Yep. Okay.
That’d be a way to put it. So it’s like, that’d be a really cool exercise. Like, I’m just kinda visualizing the framework of, like, there’s desire, and then there’s, like, these seven different kind of filters it gets kind of put through and that can have the same idea articulated in seven different ways.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you.
Cool. Yeah. Thank you.
I think you’re good, Katie. Sorry.
Thank you, sir. You guys got totally wrapped up trying to remember all seven deadly sins.
But Haven’t you seen the movie seven?
The Bradford?
Yeah. That’s that’s my reference point, not not the Bible.
I I think that’s everyone’s reference point. It’s like and all I think of it is, like, Brad Pitt at the end with the box and, like, what’s he saying? What’s his famous line there?
I don’t remember.
Don’t know, but I was like, Brad. Yep.
What’s in the box? Yeah. I think it’s that. I don’t know.
Anyway.
So I had a client that I wrote a long form sales page for her hybrid course and coaching program.
And now she wants to launch just the course as a DIY downs well, I it’s not it so it was previously conceived as a downsell, but now she wants to launch that as a standalone offer.
Okay.
Like how and she’s she just emailed me saying, do is it a different sales page or do we just cut the group coaching components out of the existing sales page, which is a beast. Like, it’s like the longest sales page I’ve ever written in my life. So I’m curious to your thoughts on, like, a starting point for that.
Yeah. So she sold it as a downsell before. Right?
Yes. But only on a call. So she doesn’t offer that anywhere. And like, she hasn’t launched before. She just has, like, amazing SEO and she gets a tons of leads that way. So this would be her first launch style.
Yep.
The thing, of the DIY.
And it wouldn’t be within the context of them having, like, not bought, you know, the coaching package, right, or the coaching version. Like, this is really fully stand alone, even stand alone in the conversation. Right? Cool. I mean, if the sales page as it was written, speaks to everything that is still true about that audience, their desires, the problems that the product helps overcome, then I think the path of least resistance and even most effectiveness is just retooling that sales page to definitely remove anything that would be delivered only through coaching.
But, yeah, how do you feel about it?
Yeah, I I did like, I mean, definitely there’s gonna be chunks that need to go because, you know, she’s a, like, she’s a trained therapist. So we talked a lot about the benefits of like talking things through in that group container and everything.
Sure.
I guess, I’m just like, is it a different how much does it change the nature of the relationship? Like, I don’t I don’t know. I feel like because the the tone of the sales page was very much like, I’m gonna walk you through this and, you know, we’re gonna have all of these opportunities for feedback. And I’m I’m just wondering if it well, I guess if you’ve ever done anything like that before, like amending an existing sales page to pitch a slightly different version of the product?
Or if you would Yeah.
I haven’t I haven’t done that specific project before.
Yeah, kind of like definitely an accuracy sweep and an edit and a check, like, a hundred percent.
Even things that are implied or insinuated in terms of, like, the level of intimacy and feedback that they’re gonna have, I would definitely be mindful of that.
The things that are, in my view, like, definitely keepable, especially if the audience has resonated with them before and they’re accurate and true is anything that points to the desired outcomes and anything that points to the the current problem states and, you know, how that’s showing up for them. Like, all these things, if they’re accurate and they’ve been resonating, you can probably keep all of that. Right?
Testimonials might be something to, like, really, make sure you’re being accurate as much as possible. Like, try to get testimonials from those who have gone through the DIY. Right? Or if they’ve been private clients or the ones in, like, the coaching, container for it, I would just, like, make a note, right, like, you know, part of the the coaching container, right, to just not have that, yeah, that kind of, like, insinuation, right, that that’s an accurate kind of, like, one for one.
But, yeah, I think, like yeah. If you feel really good about how the copy presents and how it’s been resonating and the edit is a decent sized job, like, to be clear.
But yeah, I’ll just go for Yeah, go ahead.
At first I was thinking of pitching that in a day rate, but I actually feel like it might need the time and like repeated passes of a project versus trying to Yeah.
Okay.
Yep. Yeah.
Yep. I think so.
But what does that look like for you in terms of, like, the multiple passes?
Like, maybe we could just see Just like coming back to it, like, having more than a day to, like, kind of, like, leave it, come back and make sure that I haven’t missed something where they’re talking about a a call or a Yep.
I think, like, the first step of it would be to audit the current page. Right? Like, you know, yellow highlighters of, like, this has to go, this has to go, this has to go. Right?
Mhmm. Especially around, like, the languaging, as you said. And say that, like, in this filter and the sweep, I’m sweeping for x, y, and z. I’m sweeping for, like, accuracy.
What’s still going to be true for insinuation around intimacy and access. Right? So, like, kinda list the things you’re sweeping for and auditing for, make the check, and then kinda, like I would present that to her, right, and then say, like, my the next part of my sweep is to, like, remove these sections, make things more relevant and appropriate for the actual experience.
But, yeah, that’s not a one day thing. That’s multi stage, multi step. But, yep, I think yeah, that’s an interesting project. Keep me posted.
Cool.
I have a question. I’ve, I think I’ve asked this to Joe, but I’m interested to hear your opinion because I’m still struggling with it.
Okay.
In my area, meaning I work with mostly Israeli companies because I’ve been working in Israeli tech scene for five years, and so my whole network is here. Mhmm.
And I think that’s relevant because the Israeli tech scene is like, the whole tech scene is struggling, but Israel is struggling a little bit more because there’s less investments because of the ongoing war.
Sure.
So that means marketing budgets are even lower than they would be elsewhere.
Mhmm.
And so more and more companies that I talk to are cutting their paid media budget and putting more effort into social selling, meaning organic social media posts, but they’re calling it social selling because they’re putting a lot more of a strategic emphasis on it than they would have five years ago, or even three years ago.
So my background is more in acquisition, more in demand gen, optimizing landing pages, optimizing web copy, really very, very conversion focused. Mhmm. But the vast majority of people that I talk to are interested in more organic content.
Mhmm.
And so I’m wondering if it’s worth like, we don’t know what the future holds. Right? We can’t necessarily predict, where the market or where the geopolitical scene will be in the next six to twelve months.
But I’m grappling with the idea of, like, I’ve already taken on some of these clients, and I’ve learned a lot about these different forms of content.
I’m wondering how much should I be considering shifting my positioning as a company, to accommodate what I see as a shift in the market, or should I continue with this very conversion focused angle that I’ve been taking?
Yeah. That’s interesting. There’s, like, a few variables at play. Right? One of them you already kinda highlighted is, like, is this shift more kind of, like, temporary and seasonal and cyclical?
Or for all you know, right, or maybe once they’re in that, the ROI, right, is gonna be better than their other paid media channels, and they’re gonna wanna continue, amplifying that channel. So I think there’s variable number one is, like, how confident are you that the demand for that is going to continue and increase?
Right? Like, give that a confidence score on a scale of one to ten. Like, if it’s over seven, right, like, maybe yes or at least making that part of your official services and offerings, would be wise, especially if you think that they’re going to continue, wanting more of an organic presence, right, and more strategies around that.
The next variable I would consider is how necessary is it for you to position yourself as that to gain business in that? Because it sounds like those conversations are already happening just just like in your network, right? And that as long as you’re available to it, you’re going to get those projects anyway. So like, if that’s low importance, then I would wait a little bit, right? I wouldn’t, like, reposition yourself, so immediately. Like, wait to see where that trend line is heading, especially if you don’t need to reposition yourself to get that business, if that makes sense.
Yeah. That’s a really good point because it’s not like, like, it’s not goo Google is gonna disappear. Obviously not. Yeah.
Mhmm. But what I see is it’s becoming more and more common for, or it’s becoming more relevant for larger companies. So if you’re thinking in the VC world, you have series. Right?
Like, series a, series b, series c, series d.
And series a is, like, they still don’t they still haven’t finished building the product. Series b and c is, like, they’ve sort of hit product market bit, but they’re still growing. Series d and beyond is, like, they’ve got their shit together. They’re, like, they’re moving. Like, they have they have somewhat of a working workflow.
And I think that series d is sort of, like, seven hundred employees plus in mind. Right. Like, roughly speaking.
So it’s more like series d and up, where they’re really starting to ramp up their paid media channels. But by the time they reach that five, they probably have enough resources in house to manage that kind of CRO. And so, they’re not really looking to outsource it as much.
And so, I’ve gotten lots of job offers for that kind of position, but a lot newer freelancing the only really freelance opportunities I’ve got is from a reseller, actually, by Monday dot com.
So it’s a very, very different kind of company than the actual fast company.
Right.
And, obviously, the budget is small Sure. For paid media.
Mhmm.
Because if if it’s small, then there’s only so many landing pages they’re gonna have. They’re only gonna have, like, two, three campaigns.
Right.
But I think that I think it makes sense that, like, these because, especially, like, we talk a lot about, oh, am I a copywriter? Am I a conversion? Like but, like, clients don’t care about that language. Like, especially in a non English speaking they just give us content.
Like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, content is content. And content is emails and content is social and content is blog. Like, they they don’t think that way.
I’m actively imagining my Israeli uncle responding to that conversation right now in his very Israeli uncle y voice. Yeah.
Exactly. Like, there’s no word for copywriter in Hebrew. It’s.
What is this? I don’t care. I don’t care.
Exactly. Okay. You got it. You got it.
I get it.
Yeah.
Right. Yeah. So I think that that’s how, like it’s helpful to think, like, if you have to make that dilution, you don’t necessarily have to make it now.
Mhmm.
Is what I’m taking from that.
Yep. Exactly.
Does that, give you something to move with or feel a little bit more sweet?
Awesome. Yeah.
I would add on to that too. It’s also, you know, instead of changing positioning, it’s you’re it’s more like, you know, the right thing to do at the right time and you’re responsive and savvy to what’s going on. You know? Does that make sense?
I mean, look, a girl’s gotta eat. Sometimes you just gotta take the grudges to come to you.
I know how savvy it is, or it’s just like, you know, I wanna Making sure you can eat is savvy.
Not that I owe my last dollar, but, like, I’m not at the point where I’m regularly turning away large amounts of work.
Awesome.
Cool. We feeling good for today?
Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Well, enjoy your long weekends for those taking long weekends.
I’m really hungry now all of a sudden. I’ll just talk about Chipotle and eating and, yeah, that’s my plan. So, yeah, catch you all on Slack. Hit me up if you have any follow-up questions on this as you begin to consider it or implement it.
Definitely here for it. Cool. Thanks, everybody. Take care. Bye.
Thank you.
Crafting Application Funnel Questions
Crafting Application Funnel Questions
Transcript
Cool. I’m excited to share this one.
Application questions. I don’t think they get spoken about very often or at all. And, yeah, when you really think about it, right, they’re like a critical piece of copy, especially in, like, higher ticket, funnels, whether it’s for selling services or coaching programs, and it’s, like, this intermediate piece between your main sale space, if it’s, like, sales page or a webinar or a VSL, and the sales call, it’s like this middle thing. It’s kinda like the middle child of hot ticket funnels, do middle child actually lack love or is that just a myth? I don’t know. Have have there ever been studies done on middle childs or middle children?
I don’t know, shoulder shrugs. Anyway, this is for now, the middle child of high ticket sales funnels, and we’re gonna show some love. So that’s my invitation for you is to show the application, question some love, and your own funnels, and your clients’ funnels because they deserve it. And people make more money when they write good application questions.
So that’s what we’re gonna be talking about. This is how it’s gonna go down. I’m gonna set some really important context on this one because there are some specific nuances around the way I do things, and it’s not necessarily applicable for everyone and everything you’ll ever write for. And then we’re gonna talk about it from the coaching, the conversion perspective.
So what exactly are we coaching on your application questions?
We’ll go through a template, which of course as hyper intelligent people, you could definitely assume creative control on your own and not swipe question for question.
But yeah, use your own conversion backgrounds and orientations to really make it your own. We’ll go through an example. And then Yeah. I invite you to see how and where you see yourself applying it either in your own business or for clients.
So a little bit of backstory.
Or doctor awkward or how I learned to stop worrying and love the sales call. So I’m doctor awkward, by the way. Like, I am the doctor awkward, especially on sales calls.
I don’t have that, like, sleek and smooth, smooth high ticket closer vibe, I kinda just, like, show up and I’m casual, and I hope it’s chill, and sometimes it’s not chill, and I get all sweaty, not nervous. Just like, I don’t wanna be doing this. I don’t wanna be having awkward conversations because I’m already having awkward conversations, like, eighty percent of the day. Don’t make me have another one.
So that was me. And no sales scripts really used to, vibe with me, right, like these highly orchestrated questions that would disempower people and then obviously dealing with price objections. Right? Like, I’ve never wanted to nor have I, you know, gone into people’s, you know, financial histories.
Like, I could never ask people, like, what credit sources do you have access to? Do you wanna sell the gold watch that you inherited from your grandfather to buy this program? Like, like, no to all of that. So a lot of the sales call things that I disliked were in my view, for lack of better word, let’s call them handicaps, right, things that I needed to, Yeah.
Needed to play a more winnable game around. So that was really kind of where these questions were born. It was like, how can I use these questions to set up a better and more optimized sales environment for myself, because what I was really good at, and what I loved doing was I loved helping people make really good decisions that made a lot of sense for their businesses, and that was really good? Had answering questions well authentically, and in a way that made sense, I was really good at helping contextualize people situations, their problems, their desires, things they’re working towards, things that haven’t worked with my program, right, and seeing how these things kinda mesh together.
I was not good at, once again, was money objections, right, getting people, ask that resistance, right, or doing these massive presentations of here are all the components on the program. Like, yeah, I’ll do that on a webinar. Right? But I couldn’t do a sales call where I had to go through a program overview and a pitch every time.
Like, that sounds and was so exhausting. Right? So this was about playing a winnable game because I was a product creator and service provider first, and I still am. Right?
And a high ticket closer and borderline sociopath last. So I had to play a more winnable game on sales calls. And that all started with the application questions.
This really came into focus for me from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty two.
When I had a higher ticket program called automated intimacy, that I think started at three grand, and then we had some packages that were five figure investments. Right? And this this was the first time I was taking a lot of sales calls for my own program, and I learned very quickly what I want to optimize for, what I didn’t want to optimize for, what I certainly didn’t want optimize for as a product creator and service provider first was a ton of calls, a ton of calls that didn’t feel good and a ton of calls that went nowhere. Right?
So this was really kind of the game I was playing for myself to make sure that every call, felt fruitful, felt powerful, felt relationship building, and ultimately yielded a positive result for myself and my potential client. So This was automated intimacy. This is that program I ran. We’d ran three cohorts.
My business partner off from twenty twenty, yeah, twenty twenty, twenty twenty one to twenty twenty twenty two. That’s a lot of twenties in there.
And when I was preparing this, I was just looking back at some of those older stats. Right? And across these three cohorts, we had sixty four total calls.
Only one no show, and it wasn’t because there was some elaborate gift that they would get and showing up like they didn’t need to bribe them to show up on calls.
You know, I think it was a very simple pre call email sequence, you know, in a reminder sequence, but only one no show. Right? So that kinda points to the safety being created on the call, which is one thing we’re really gonna be talking on the session, how do you create safety on your sales calls so that you reduce no shows. And ultimately, we had fifty five enrollments on the sixty four calls. So fifty five positive outcomes out of sixty four calls.
Math eludes me today. I think that’s somewhere around, like, eighty two, eighty three percent. So Not bad. But of course, let’s create some context.
So this was used on a very warm internal list where there was existing trust. So this is probably not going to be the best approach for cold application funnels where they don’t really have the trust or the buy in in you and therefore the willingness to go through what could be perceived as a bit more friction on your application. So this is recommended for program creators and service providers who, I’d say, want to create an appropriate level of friction and filter out pretty much all the poor fits before you waste time and energy on a call that is essentially not gonna be a fit and gonna be dead on arrival and gonna be one of those things where, you know, it’s hour on your calendar, but you’re already kinda thinking about it forty five minutes before, and then you need to kind of recover after if you’re introverted like me and go for a walk and take a shower and listen to music.
And it’s pretty much like a four hour half day investment for sales So, you don’t wanna waste four hours, right, about least mental and emotional energy and thinking about it energy on something that is unlikely to be a good fit. And once again, this is something you could use for your own offers, and or for your clients. So this is something that I’ve bundled into some packages that I’ve created prof created for clients, especially webinar funnels that have pointed to masterminds, write VSL funnels that have led to applications for higher ticket programs, simply asking them, right? Like, you
know, what application are you currently using? Can I take a look? Right. That’s part of my intake process.
And if I feel like their application is causing friction, right, I’ll ask questions. Right? Like, what’s your, no show rate? Like, are people showing up for your call, and this is where I get to dig deeper into problems within the problem and solve for them with better app location. So really good thing to integrate into, declined services as well, especially if it’s relevant, especially if you’re helping them sell higher ticket services, masterminds, coaching programs, etcetera, etcetera.
Cool.
So, yeah, context continued. So this is really an extension of my coaching of the conversion ethos, which is a fancy way of saying that every touch point in your funnel matters. Right? If I’m going to ask a reader, or a pre customer to experience anything, whether it’s written or video, it needs to be intentional.
It needs to have a place. It needs to serve a pre precursor for the final conversion. Otherwise, it’s just noise. Right?
And the more noise you have obviously the less they’re going to absorb the vital points within your funnel. So your application questions absolutely matter. They need to be crafted with intentionality and have purpose behind everything you’re asking.
Not just asking questions for the sake of asking questions, not just having you know, seven questions because you think you should have seven and you’re filling space. You know? Every question matters. You’re orienting their mind in a certain direction with everything you ask.
So having that level of intentionality, as part of that coaching the conversion ethos And in my view, the sales process and the sales conversation itself begins in earnest on the application page, right, intent is there. Right? If someone clicked through onto an application, there’s existing intent, and you get to guide that intention a little bit further down that line towards the conversion. So this is really where that sales conversation begins.
And done right, you’re essentially pre framing the sales call, right, like how that is gonna go down, the information that you’re gonna be talking about and sharing all that sales call. There’s so much that is pre framed just from the application.
It’s a great way to prevent no shows so that you don’t end up, you know, in sad, solo, zoom rooms, you know, wondering why you’re in the Zoom room alone, right, on, you know, Wednesday at two PM with someone who is supposed to be a great fit for your program but decided to go So creative preventing those moments on Wednesday afternoons and generating momentum towards a point of no return, getting them bought in and invested before you’ve even had that Zoom caller that sales call with them. Cool. And then this is my favorite part as captain awkward. Right? Great application questions give you really good starting points on your sales call. Things about them that you can mirror back and say, this really stood out for me. Can we talk more about that, or can you share more about this?
Instead of just asking them how the weather is in Cincinnati.
I don’t know why I’m picking on Cincinnati. I have nothing to gain Cincinnati But I don’t really care what the weather’s like. Right? And everyone knows.
You don’t care about what the weather in Cincinnati. So why would you ask for it? So this really helps you in having authentic starting points for your conversations, great questions, reveal information that allow you to begin calls on, yeah, really cool starting points. So most applications, I hate over generalizing, but most applications do nothing but really ask in some you know, uncloaked way, right, if you have money to spend and are ready to spend it, literally.
Like, I don’t know if you’re gonna be able to see my phone on the screen. But I was just like, I was looking for a Facebook ads person recently, and this was one of the questions. Can you see it? I don’t know.
Yeah. So it essentially says, are you ready to invest in yourself and your biz right now? I only move forward with calls if you’re ready to commit within the next thirty days if we’re a good fit. You know, yes, let’s go.
Not yet. It doesn’t say the price. It doesn’t say anything. It’s act essentially asking you to consent to a blank check.
Which is so frustrating. Right? So no. Of course, I’m not ready to make that commitment of that investment that I’m not even sure about.
And we’re gonna talk about yeah, the reasons behind mentioning your price on the application a little bit later. So, yeah, so much more we could do on our applications, your application auto work far harder than just qualifying someone if they have money to spend and we’re gonna do that through coaching the conversion. So stellar application should and could And maybe I’ll even say must. We gotta chat.
The number of sarcastic responses I’d have for that person, I know. Right? I said them all in my head, and I’m like, oh, I kinda wanna say them all. Right?
So I got I got, like, stuck in not knowing what sarcastic response to sent. I sent nothing at But, yeah, like, it’s frustrating.
So Stella App should have them reflect on why you, so have them selling themselves on you before you’ve even gotten on the call. Have them prove to you why them, so this ties into, the exclusive exclusive empowerment concept in ten x launches and ten x sales pages if you’ve come across that.
So essentially have them qualify themselves to you.
Build trust, magnetism, resonance, so that if it’s going to be anyone, if they’re gonna hire any copywriter, if they’re gonna hire any Facebook ad specialist, it’s gonna be you because there’s that resonance built in already.
Require investment of energy inside and time. Right? So I error, like my application aren’t short as you’re gonna see in a moment.
You know, I think the one that you’re gonna see in a second hopefully took people close to twenty, twenty five minutes to fill out, which is a lot of time, especially for, like, people who are busy professionals and really solid business owners. But the question I kept asking myself is, like, what’s fifteen to twenty minutes if the program will involve, you know, dozens of hours over multiple months? Right? So it’s like a way of qualifying right off the bat, are they willing to put in time as long as they are feeling confident that there’s gonna be an ROI in that time? So, great way to filter out for people who give really short brief answers that really say nothing, that tell they’re just trying to get to the end of it as soon as possible.
Not shaming those people. I’m totally one of those people when I’m just filling out applications without any truths in severity, you know, or true desire. Right? So I should be filtered out of that funnel. Right? I’m not serious enough to make that investment if I can’t take a bit of extra time, like sixty seconds of mindful focus to answer a question fully and accurately.
An application should give them a chance to feel powerful, resourced, capable, confident, and empowered. So these are all favorable states for making larger investments. So this is something that I could, like, have a really long, anal discussion or argument with other marketers around. Right?
I don’t think, especially for higher ticket investments, that you want people buying out of fear, like fear of consequence, fear of missing out, fear of, you know, staying stuck. Right? To me, that isn’t the ideal emotional architecture of someone who invests five grand, ten grand, fifteen grand. On a programmer mastermind.
Right? I want someone experiencing these questions and then experiencing the sales call feeling these states. To me, these are the states that are most congruent with these larger investments, especially larger investments where they’re going to be poised to get an even better ROI out of it. So I love creating context on my questions, on my applications for, having folks feel these states within, right, before getting on the sales call.
An app should also begin mentally and emotionally integrating your into their situation, life, or context, which sounds complicated, and the example that you’re gonna see, how easy it is to do that. And also, once again, give you plenty of material to question them on, mirror back, celebrate them for. Right? It doesn’t even need to be, like, unpacking something they said. You could just honor and celebrate something that they had on their applications. Hey, this really stood out to me as something awesome. I just want to congratulate you on that.
To me, that is authentic, legitimate. Rapport, not, you know, caring about the weather in Cincinnati.
So this is what an app should do and could do We’re gonna make the super practical by going through.
I don’t know at all. It becomes fifteen points.
Such a cool number, fifteen point sales page, fifteen point application questions. I swear I don’t have, like, a secret affinity for the number fifteen. Just keeps happening.
So let me stop this here and we’re gonna actually, you know what, I’m gonna chat out the Google Doc here as well so that you have access to that for later.
And any questions before I pull up pull up, the Google Doc, or are we good?
Perfect. So doc is in the chat. You can save that, make a copy.
And we’re gonna go through the format for these questions, and then the questions I’ve used myself on that application funnel that resulted in one no show. I still don’t know where that person went. Right? I’m at. Like, I really hope they’re okay. I should have followed up. Make sure they’re okay.
But yeah, let’s do it.
Cool.
So fifteen point framework for application funnel questions.
So first one, Very basic, relevance. Am I in the right place, calling out your segments with specificity so someone knows without any doubt that they’re in the right room, that they’re going to have a potential payoff to filling out this application and investing their time in it. Relevant. So a recent recent snapshot as it relates to the goal and program, resourcefulness, number three, right, connecting them to that sense of power, resourcefulness, pride of accomplishment, relevance, and integrating what they’d like to achieve with you and your program, Relevance around the problems they’re experiencing that they want fixed, relevance, and selling themselves, what gives them confidence that you specifically can help.
And then we flip it. Right? What gives them confidence in themselves? So the three exclusive empowerment qualification questions, ethos, right, for residents around your way of doing things, Number twelve is any remaining friction question.
So the questions you have that you feel may create the most friction usually save those for last. Right? Once there’s already all this momentum, all this investment around the first ten or eleven questions, yeah, but the most friction based ones for last. And then I have three, what I call transparency alerts I haven’t seen, Anyone do this.
And I don’t know why. It’s been such a well received thing. People have literally talked about this on sales calls. Like, thank you for including that.
Thank you for saying that. So one of them is going to be about essentially creating a sense of ease and safety on the call. This is where you defend against the no show, really assuring them, right, that it’s not going to be high pressure without saying this isn’t gonna be high pressure. Right?
Because no one believes you when you just say it like that. Yeah, this is where you can use some copy to create reassurance, to create safety.
The second one is really about creating your own safety and your own boundaries. Right, knowing who you want to work with, who you don’t want to work with, this is where you get to really state that boundary and see if they consent to that, if they’re a match for it. And the last one is price transparency. So I’m a big fan of price transparency, especially if you’re a solopreneur selling your own program. If you don’t have a big sales team, if you don’t want to spend a lot of time on a lot of calls, managing price objections. I love.
I just feel so much more confident on a sales call knowing that they already already know the price. Right? That’s just a personal thing. When I know that they already know the investment level and they’ve chosen to be there, I just feel so much better.
And another thing I’ve experienced both as a consumer and from clients I’ve worked with, right, is that if they don’t know the price, there’s a part of them that almost doesn’t want to be bought into your program where it doesn’t feel safe to feel desire for your thing because that desire is attributed to an unknown price investment. Right? So they’re gonna be a little bit more guarded, not necessarily wanting to give themselves fully to the desire, to the excitement, to the possibility of working with you. Whereas if the price is known, if the range is known, That’s out of the way.
That’s out of the room. And if they’re on that call, the focus is really gonna be about making sure they’re a great fit. If there’s going to be a great athway towards that ROI and making sure there’s resonance. And to me, that’s what it means to play a winnable game or sales environment that you want to be able to participate in fully.
Cool. So let’s take a look at how this played out on this automated intimacy funnel. Right? So the first question was really about relevance.
Are they in the right place? So what’s the best way to describe your awesomeness We had multiple choice. You know, number one, I’m a data service provider, copywriter automation specialist looking to level up my skills, differentiate from the crowd, and add high profit product type services to Mustact.
I’m an experienced coach consultant course creator actively marketing my programs to my audience, more three. I might be a newer coach consultant course grader, but I want to set up the most robust marketing and automation foundation possible that will set me up for scale, and I’m ready So very easy for people to see themselves on the page.
All three of these are essentially, people we would qualify. Right? We just wanna make sure that they’re choosing the one that says, yep, that’s me. And the rest of this application will be relevant for me.
Next one, give me a taste of what the last sixty days have looked into your life and business. So for me, the recency aspect is the most important here. Right? Like, I would even go with thirty days.
Like, I want to know who I’m going to be experiencing right now. Right? Like, I don’t want biographical data of, like, what they were doing three years ago or two years ago or even last year, especially in industries where things change so drastically and so sharply.
I want that recent snapshot.
So, yeah, that’s also about creating that relevance to make sure that they are experiencing, movement towards that goal and friction with the problem that my program solves and that that is active, right, happening right now, not something that might happen in the future, or something that happened, like, two years ago, and they still haven’t had movement on it. But, yeah, something they’re actively working towards right now. Question number three, what’s the most exciting and expansive step you’ve taken in your business over the last month or two? So once again, recency, recency matters so much.
And this is really about making sure that, like, they are capacitated to take action, right, that they have some degree of movement and momentum. So this is really about qualifying them to some degree. Right, making sure that they can connect to their power, their resourcefulness, some pride of accomplishment. I want them to feel proud.
Right, of things they’ve done. I want them to feel connected to their ability to do really cool things and get results out of them. So this is really the state that I am trying to engineer with number three, and number four, probably one of the most important questions on this application The phrasing is very specific here. So what are the most vital, heart pounding, business and life achievement you’d like to whiskey or kombucha clink to with us in the next few months.
Right? So it’s like, these are their goals, but it’s very clearly with us, right, inside our program. So this is about tying their goals with your program or your service it’s really subtle, but it’s also future pacing them inside your program where they could celebrate those wins with your guidance. So We’re this in a less clunky way whiskey and kombucha clink is really tough to say out loud, and I never wanna say it out loud again.
But the corp piece of this, right, is like Thai excitement.
Right? Big things, big, desirable things they want. With you and your program. Married those two together, and you’re gonna be setting the stage for them to future pace themselves experiencing those within your presence really powerful stuff.
What do you currently perceive as your biggest misopportunities, leakages, or inefficiencies in your marketing or sales process So very specific languaging here as well. Right? I’m not necessarily looking for those, like, big bleeding neck game points here, like those really big things. I’m looking for kind of those, like, smaller details that a sophisticated business owner would be aware of.
Right? So it’s not necessarily like and I know in my copy, training. I talk a lot more about, you know, Roma burning moments, right, moments of moments of highest tension. This really kind of gets a more expansive view, right, of their motivations for joining.
So, like, what are the leakages, what are the inefficiencies? I don’t wanna be a savior to someone, in my coaching programs. I want to help them seize opportunities and make good on this stuff in front of them. Right?
So this is just a way of framing that question.
And then we move into them selling themselves on you. Once again, this is most relevant for warm list internal lists or you know, I’d say a cold funnels if they’ve gone through, you know, a webinar that would give them some sense of this information and an ability to answer it accurately. But get them to reflect on it. Right?
What gives you a sense of confidence that we might be able to help? Really cool. So they get to start thinking about what really did resonate. Why do I trust this person, and they make that real for themselves?
What resonates about the concept of automated intimacy? So at this stage, I think I already had a PDF guide. I had already done a webinar.
People who are on this application are people who’ve gone through that process. Right? So once again, them selling themselves on a process. Like, why are you interested in this? Right? This gives me a lot of information to mirror back on the sales call and is also really good for, voice of customer data, voice of prospect data, in this case, for your future launches.
Then exclusive empowerment qualification.
Okay. So this is where we go so much further beyond, right, just qualify them based on, you know, are you ready to invest? If you’re a fit, are you going to invest without me even telling you the price. Right? There’s not there’s no way someone can answer that in a way that feels good and empowering for them. Right? So this is where I wanna create questions where if they say yes, right, or if they’re giving, you know, eight on tens, they build their own confidence as they qualify.
Right? So on the scale of one to ten, how confident are you in your or your team’s copywriting abilities? Not only do I want them to feel a confidence boost and putting a seven or an eight or a ten, I want them to feel like they’ve cleared a hurdle that not necessarily everyone else can. Right?
And not only that. It’s all only about how they feel. This is me playing a winnable game where the people who are entering my program. Right?
I don’t think people can have success in automated intimacy unless they have at least a decent baseline of copy skill Right? So this is so important for me to legitimately qualify, potential, prospects or potential members and it’s good for them to clear that hurdle and feel good and confident about it. And then same question about your tech and automation abilities, And then another question, do you have team supporting you and copy automation page builds, or are you rocking these solo? So, yeah, just some questions that they can clear that hurdle of being a good fit being poised to get that result or things that might, you know, signal something that on that sales call, you may wanna ask them about Right?
And this happened very frequently. Like, I’d have people who would say somewhere like, you know, a five on a ten five on five on ten on copy. Right? And I’d be able to go deeper on that topic.
Right? And that might mean that I included some bonuses or included some extra copy coaching sessions or copy reviews copy audits, to really support them in that process.
So eight to ten qualifying them and also making sure that they’re a great fit for your program, giving them confidence to have cleared those hurdles.
Eleven, really light, ethos based. Right? Do you believe that taking the time to explore the nuances of ethical marketing in South Strata is a solid use of time, yes or no. So anything to create resonance on an ethos level is something you could have on eleven. And then twelve was our kind of Big friction question. So all the tech walk throughs of automated intimacy were built in active campaign. It was really best suited, I’d say, for active campaign users.
Even though the concepts could, of course, be translated to any system.
But that was kind of like our big friction question. Right? So, you know, we ask that at the end, do you currently use active campaign? Or if not, would you be open to migrating?
In the end, Yeah. We didn’t need people to be on active campaign. They were smart enough to make it work in in birdkit and HubSpot and all sorts of other programs. But, yeah, biggest friction question, save till the end once there’s been all this momentum and investment already made, leading up to it. And then the transparency alert. So number one, designed to prevent no shows such a waste of time and money, showing up for calls where your prospect goes on you. So demoralizing.
So transparency alert number one, your call will either be with myself or Phil, aka the co founders of automated intimacy, we’re not hired gun salespeople or closers, but we’re damn good at knowing if AI will be the right fit for you because, well, we created it. Is that cool? Yes or no? Right? So this is creating safety.
Transparency alert number two, this is about stating our boundaries, people we just don’t want to work with. Right? So we do best with self sufficient entrepreneurs and business owners who don’t have some urgent life or death problem. That they need us to save them from, yes, solving problems is cool and something we’re great at, but helping you scale up these new ops and get from great to f and epic is where we love to play with us on that.
Yes or no. Right? So this is where we protect our own space from people who need us to save their businesses, right, and all of the pressure associated with that. And then the final one, the big one, the price one.
So, yeah, no discussing it and no use hiding it in my view.
The investment for AI ranges from four to fifteen k depending on the level of one on one support. You would most that would most serve you at the stage. If you’re a solid fit with a clear path to an ROI, are you empowered to make the time energy financial investments without stomach clenching fear maxing out your credit cards or sacrificing your enjoyment of spa days, shiatsu, massages, and organic grass fed steak. Yes or no.
Right? So a few techniques at play here. Right? Like, I do enjoy, mixing humor with what could otherwise be kind of a charged and contracted questions.
That is more of a technique thing, injecting some humor into this type of question.
But really this is about creating that safety, right, where they can give a very real and true Yes or no. Right? And I feel so good. Like, I remember when these applications would come through.
Like, part of me would almost, like, immediately, like, scroll down to their answer, of question or the transparency alert, because if I saw, like, yes, there. Right? Like, I just got excited about that call because I just felt like this was a call where I can show up and serve this person really kind of contextualize their situation with what we’re doing inside our program and be fully focused to, like, create that pathway, like, how can I make this person five times that investment in the next three months? Like, that was a really empowering question for me to enter these calls for knowing that they were already aware of this element.
So once again, a lot of people would disagree with being transparent about price. And there may be very good reasons not to. Sometimes. Right?
And, you know, to me, if you’re going to talk about price and ask people if they’re empowered to make a decision, say the price. Like, Don’t do this one. Right? This one kinda sucked saying, you know, are you willing to write a blind check?
But in most cases for a service provider, where someone at least senses the value you’re bringing, right, and the stakes and the costs related to their problem.
Like, you shouldn’t have a problem stating your price. Right?
And if they’re going to have a lot of resistance to it at this stage, You know, obviously, they’re gonna have resistance to it on the sales call and how equipped, willing, and even to some degree desiring are you to have, you know, thirty minutes or forty minutes around price objection. Right, around asking them about how much money they have in their business account about their sources for credit, about, you know, making and this is where you kinda get into the territory, right, of, like, guarantees, right, that you didn’t wanna be making, right, as well as making promises that you can’t necessarily always keep.
So I don’t know. I feel like transparency alert number three, being very clear on the price. Really sets things up for clean sales call, and one where you get to stay, more likely in your zone of genius. So, yeah, that’s what I have on these fifteen questions.
This is a long application. It doesn’t need to be this long I encourage you to see kinda more of the methodology around what we’re coaching throughout it. You could certainly shorten it, depending on your audience.
But yeah, start being mindful about your application questions, what role and what role they serve in your overall sales process and how you could actually have it, move the needle in some key areas before your sales call and also set the stage for type of sales call that you feel best participating in. So that’s what I got. I think we got twenty more minutes for conversation about how and where you might see yourself applying this. Any questions? And Yeah. I’m gonna take a sip.
Great stuff, Ry.
I you gave us a little bit of of a hint of what the sales funnel looked like. Could you map it out a little more clearly just so we have a better sense of where this all comes together. Yeah. For sure. So we launched this one three times each funnel looked a little bit different.
The first one was a webinar to an application.
The second one was, well, webinar sales page. So we had, like, the application button on the sales page.
So, yeah, they were either coming from a webinar, a long form sales page, or I think we also had it in the PDF guide, which was like fifteen page, like, really thorough breakdown of what was inside the program. So these people were product aware. For the most part, they were really kind of sold on the ethos of the program.
But yeah, great question because that context certainly matters, especially if you’re gonna be asking people like what resonates most about, you know, the program.
So, yeah, thanks for asking it.
You’re right. Since you have such a familiarity now with my seasonal sale kind of packages and ideas, just off the top of your head. I know I’m putting you on the spot, but are there any because obviously this was more of a, you know, for mastermind and all that kind of thing. But for a service, are there any other side notes or anything we should know if we were going to do this for example, to sell a higher ticket package or something like that, a productized service?
Yeah. Of course. I think Well, I guess I’d start my question with a bit of a cheat question and ask you, like, how your application currently looks, you know, what you’re currently doing there.
You know, honestly, what I’m currently doing there is it’s I think it’s the exact same because I I wasn’t happy with my form play I think I was doing type form but so I send them right now. It’s the same application as my contact us. It’s not It’s not specific to the seasonal sale. So very little and not targeted at all.
Got it. Yeah, I think that aspects I would certainly borrow from are qualifying them very specifically around their trustee or team makeup or whatever is needed on their end to be able to implement what you do really well and get results from what you do. Right? I think, like, that’s the biggest piece for me.
It’s like, if I were you, I would wanna make sure that anyone I am getting on a call with or creating a proposal for is at least well situated in their business and their team makeup. To work with you. So, yeah, I think that that would be, yeah, that would be probably the most important part. And then, obviously, like, this can blend into, you know, their current list size, right, their current sales volume, you know, amount of, like, SKU numbers, like, just things that matter for what you do, essentially.
Cool. Cool.
Ryan, when we have, some more time to review the doc you shared with us and as we’re creating you know, there’s just, I was trying off the top of my head to come up with, well, what would I ask right there? I’m not sure. So as we’re coming up with our own questions for these things, can we, tag you and just throw ideas and get your feedback a little bit?
Yeah. Of course. Please do. Okay. I love that. Yeah. Cool.
I just I’m not good off the top of my head, especially the ethos kind of thing.
I struggle with that kind question.
And so I can’t think of any right now to throw at you otherwise I would.
Yeah. And I mean, there’s certainly, like, audibles that you can call for your audience. Right? So, like, ethos matters a lot to my audience and my list.
Right? Like, they’re mostly you know, smaller business owners, service providers, and, like, they’re humans. Right? And I mean, I know everyone who buys us human, but, like, you may not ask that question to an ecomm company unless you can really see clearly that they would share resonance around a certain belief or a certain way of doing things.
And that may tie in, right, especially I think you mentioned on a previous call that, like, you want to own that how did you word it?
I don’t wanna, like, butcher your Oh, the Bernae Brownos?
Selling stuff that part?
Yeah. That selling stuff is good. Right? Or Yeah. However you worded it.
Oh, yeah. Oh, I know what you’re talking about.
When I went on my tangent about there seems to be this, oh, selling products is just encouraging people to acquire stuff, but Right.
I wanna fight that with products solve problems.
I think so. So, like, that’s a really cool ethos. Right? If there’s a way to articulate that in a clean way that matters and would resonate with your potential buyer? And, yeah, of course.
Okay. No. That’s thank you. That helps. Actually, now that’s got my brain. Okay.
Cool.
How would you, one of my recent leads, it’s This is always the one when you have it’s fine when I have an e commerce company in my head because that’s clear. But then when I have for example, I have a a fractional CMO reach out recently and do my latest project with and so I’m not you know, it’s her client that that’s an e commerce client and all that. Do you how do you modify when you know it’s the client of the client? Know what I mean?
When it’s the client of the client.
Yeah. So if I’m talking to someone who owns Yeah. I think she’s considered her own agency but yeah that’s always the one where I’m sitting there going. Oh, if I could just think of one person if it’s if I’m talking to the marketing person or the the CEO or whoever it is at a e commerce, then I’m good. I can think of that one person. But when I started getting more CMO and this whole fractional thing, I was like, oh, I I struggle with thinking two people, but making a common anything, really.
Yeah. Is the fractional CMO the one who’s really kinda making that decision or you know, and evaluating the process?
Or Yeah.
Yes. But she still has to go to her client and say, look, I found this person, this is why I think we should hire. And then they give the yeah.
So it’s that kind of relationship.
So I I are on the side of catering it to the CMO. Because unless you first sell them, you’re not getting to that next level anyway. They’re not gonna bring it bring it to that second stage.
So I think, like, It’s two phase. Right? Like, you definitely wanna cater those initial pieces of your funnel and process for that CMO. They’re the first gatekeeper. They’re the first CS you have to have. Right?
Yeah. Yeah.
And then sometimes, like, A really simple question to ask, right, is like, what will empower you most to take this conversation to the company. Right?
Oh, yeah.
And allow them, right, because that process could look different in many different contexts depending on their relationship with the company. So it’s like, what would help you be most successful in going to so and so with this. Right?
Yeah. Yep. That’s great. Thank you.
And and let them share that with you so you could be really collaborative in getting it across the finish line. Okay.
Cool.
Thanks for those questions.
Alright. Anything else for today or shall we wrap it?
I’m good. I think we’re I think we’re good. Yeah.
I just got ISBNs for my new book. I’m excited. Yeah.
Oh, did you how many did you get?
So Maybe you can correct me on this, like, in Canada, you get them for free. Right?
You do. And it as an American, it’s so far. Trading because we have to pay for every single one.
Yes. You do. I’m like, they’re like, how many do you want? I’m like, a hundred.
So, yeah.
Yep. And I thought it would take, like, forever to get them, but only took two days even over the holidays.
So Oh, nice.
Time to rest.
We had to wait.
We had to wait for Joe’s for a little while. So that’s good. They’ve gotten faster.
Yeah. Yeah. So I don’t know. I’m gonna write a hundred books now to use all my ISBNs and not feel like, you know, I was greedy and frivolous and asking for a hundred ISBN.
So Oh, but if you think about it, there’s if you think about all the different formats and files you could have for one book, It’s surprisingly a lot. So Oh, totally.
Yeah. Well, I’m I’m stacked with ISBNs now, which I’m really happy about. So Yeah. Awesome. Cool. I definitely wanna talk more about, yeah, your publishing experience at some point because it sounds like you’ve done significant amount of that.
Oh, yeah. Happy to yeah. Abby and I actually were talking about that recently. So and I think Joe said that we would, at some point, when there’s enough people wanting to talk about it. We would. So, absolutely. But, yeah, reach out.
Really cool.
Awesome. Well, great hanging with you, Jessica Randall. And all those watching on the replay. And, yeah, enjoy the rest of your week. We’ll talk soon.
Worksheet
The 3-Tiered Copy Referral System
The 3-Tiered Copy Referral System
Transcript
Alright. Everyone seeing that okay?
Beautiful.
Alright. So one thing I’m noticing is I always, like, title these things with, with, like, a super direct response headline, and then I realize I have to say it out loud in a really casual way later. And it’s just, like, really awkward. So I almost don’t wanna read, like, the title of this.
I’ll just, like, let that be on the screen for three seconds and let y’all read it so I don’t have to speak copy of that. There we go. A dead simple automated referral network to secure decades worth of well paid cut projects without awkward ass or fake as fuck friendships. There we go.
I said it about that. I got it on myself.
Cool. So this is all about my referral system.
Yeah. I don’t know. I think I’ve taught this more pieces of this, like, once or twice in various bonuses and various trainings, but the beaniest part or the meatiest part is the one that I’ve always kind of, like, went a little bit too quickly. Like, it’s also been, like, stuffed within a bigger training. So I really want to take the opportunity to, like, really give this one the time and the process to have it implemented because it’s, by far, been, like, my most impactful, client acquisition system over almost a decade. So, yeah, we’re gonna formalize it, process it, processize it, and make it real, and it’s real if it’s on a worksheet. So there we go.
Fun fact one.
Eighty five percent, I’d say, more than eighty five percent of the clients I’ve served over the last decade were referral based, and the other fifteen percent was a combo of guest presenting and masterminds.
So, yeah, this is also in a very specific order. So guest presenting and masterminds, another awesome source, live events, great source, and podcast, social posting, all that stuff, a distant third. So eighty five percent from referrals. Then of that remaining fifteen percent, I’d say, like, most of that was live events and guest guest presenting in courses and masterminds.
Fun fact two, never run ads, cool DM, or dance on TikTok.
Nothing wrong with any of these. Not hating on any of these. I’d do them if I could. I’d dance if I could, but I can’t.
And when you’re almost forty, you just kind of accept that, like, I’m not meant to go through this lifetime with dance moves. And, yeah, you make up for it in other ways. So, yeah, Joe could attest to this. I was at her wedding.
I I was awful on the dance floor. The worst. I avoided the dance floor at all costs until I had no choice. So fun fact to you.
Fun fact three. I’m an awkward Canadian who forgets to call my own family members on their birthday. I’ve been characterized as misanthropic, but I’m really not. I don’t think I am.
And all this to say that I’m so far from perfect in cultivating and maintaining business relationships. Like, this isn’t an area I consider myself to be a ten on ten at.
Yeah. It’s weird for me, and I do it imperfectly.
And, yeah, I just want that to be known. Like, to implement these strategies, you don’t have to be, like, the most social, human y person in the world.
And there’s so much margin or imperfection in all that. And fun fact four, I’ve systematized all of this after the fact. Meaning, while I was using it, it was all by accident and highly successful without ever formalizing it or turning it into a process. Meaning, if you turn this into a process and use some of the steps I’ll give you in this training, you’ll probably crush it and, like, blow my results with it out of the water.
So that’s my hope is that, yeah, you take what I did accidentally, formalize it, make it real, make it a process, make it a task you can actually do, and, yeah, beat my results on it. So without further ado, the three tiered automatic referral network. So tier one is your current or your past clients. So what makes you referable?
We could have, like, a sixty minute discussion just on this.
Typically, when clients have referred me, I’d ask them, like, what made you think of me? Right? Like, what made you refer me? Like, what made you feel comfortable referring me?
Like, that’s the one question I would always ask after I said thank you for the referral, of course. But, yeah, why did you refer me? Right? And that gives you so much juicy information about what they value about you and how it gets communicated to others.
So this has been what I’ve received back, in no particular order on this one at least. So performance, obviously, you gotta be getting results. They’re not not gonna refer you to their close network and their friends if you just can’t do what you say you’re gonna do, and it’s not working. So performance, that matters.
Probably above all else, communications, clear expectations.
The bar for this is still so low, and I think it’ll remain low forever because it’s been low forever.
But just be a decent communicator. Set clear expectations.
Like, the number one headache clients and project managers in particular have had is, like, I just don’t know if this is getting done. I don’t know if it’s being worked on. I don’t I can’t trust on the reliability of this freelancer to get the work done. So communication, clear expectations, vital, massive, huge, and makes you highly referable because they know you’re not gonna cause drama, stress, and energetic tax on the people they refer you out to, which is what they’re afraid that they’ll be responsible for in referring you out. Right? If you are an absolute nightmare, a mess, refusing, totally inflexible about everything, they feel like that comes back on them. So it’s like almost reverse engineer what makes you not referable and optimize against that.
So low drama, low stress, low energetic cost. Typically, the feedback I’ve had in response to the question of what made you refer me is you were so easy and simple to work with. Right? So take that for what it’s worth.
How can you be low drama, low energy cost, while, of course, still maintaining your boundaries and your scopes and pushing back where you have to. So, there we have it. And, finally, like, they know you’re open to taking more clients. So this is, like, an obvious one.
Right? It’s like, I’ve had clients want to refer me, but they simply just, like, said, oh, I didn’t know you were still taking clients. Right? Like, they just assumed I was fully booked up.
They just assumed that, like especially if you position yourself, I think, like, Joe had, like, the diva list way back in the day and a wait list. Right? Especially if you have a wait list and they had to wait to get on your calendar, they’re just gonna see my book full. Right?
So it’s just yeah. Like, they can refer you if they think that you’re not open for more business. So just making sure they know that.
That’s really the five aspects for tier one.
In most cases, when it comes to being referred by current or past clients, to be honest, I never even had to ask to be referred. It just kinda happened organically when the opportunity presented for them, and those five things were present.
And this is also how I preferred out freelancers that I’ve hired in the past. It was like, this person was awesome. They were easy to work with. Oh, opportunity here. Let me refer them. So a lot of these refer referrals will happen without a formal ask as long as those five things are present and true, but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t make an ask. So if you are going to make an ask, and you can, and you should if it feels right to do, Best time to do it in my view would be after a project has successfully wrapped and finalized, after you’ve had your postmortems, discussions about a retainer, discussions about continuity.
All that has been had. The project has been successful up until that point. Right? It is my belief, I guess, that the focus should be completely on serving that current client. And if you’re making that referral ask while there’s still some stuff left undone, it just feels a little bit premature. It almost feels like you’re moving on to a new relationship before giving your all to the current one, and that’s always a bit of just, yeah, not the best feeling in the world. So, yeah, best time would be after all those conversations have been had, after a project has successfully closed, and once that current client has felt like fully served within the scope of your project.
So how to do it?
Once again, awkward Canadian. There’s a million different ways to do it. I like doing it by email or by text, for two reasons. One, that’s probably where I feel most comfortable and least awkward.
But I’ve also heard from clients that they prefer to receive a referral request by email or text. Right? It could have them feel caught off guard in the moment if you say, like, by the way, like, do you have anyone to refer me to, right, in that moment? And then they go sign, then you go sign, and it’s just this, like, epically awkward moment you just both want to, like, disappear from, but can’t disappear because it’s in real time.
So, yeah, feedback I’ve had is they prefer having this, ask by email, and this is a little template that I’ve used. Right? So it’s like, hey, Naim. Really loved collaborating with you and your team on this. Right? So appreciate on them first.
It was awesome that we were able to achieve why. So the result you achieved, remind them of the results that you’ve had, that you can get the job done, right, as we said, on the five point criteria.
Then be super specific, like, epically specific about what you’re looking for. So this is, like, the number one complaint.
I’ve heard from, like, clients over the years. It’s just like, what am I referring you for? Right? Just be epically specific. So I’ll have three spots for a similar type of project next quarter.
So, like, specific timeline, like, when you’re available for it, like, how many spots are available human, course creator, biz owner, SaaS founder, like, whatever that is for them in your close network. So now you’re, So now you’re, shifting their attention to their close network for a very specific person who’s actively working on and then name the project that you’re available for, I’d so appreciate it appreciate the nitro. Right? So now it’s not a general, if you can think of anybody.
Right? I can’t think of anybody. Right? Like, you have to help my mind zero in on who that anybody is, for me to even think of that person.
So you’re just really kind of focusing their mind on that specific type of person.
And that’s sometimes I like to wrap it up with this. My best clients tend to be those who come into my world via other amazing humans and founders. Hey. That’s you, and it’s always a pleasure to bump them up on the priority queue wherever possible.
If you do have a referral fee that you offer, you can include it there.
What I don’t include, that I’ve seen a lot of people include is, like, if you can’t think about think of anyone, no worries. No problem. Just thought I’d ask. Like, don’t apologize for the referral.
Don’t let them off the hook without thinking about it.
I’ve seen that languaging come in my inbox. Like, if you could think of anyone who would be no. Sorry. I’ve had it come in my inbox.
If you can’t think of anyone, no worries. And I’m like, great. No worries. I don’t need to think about it.
So, yeah, I wouldn’t let them off the hook for that. Like, if you’ve done an amazing job, built an amazing relationship, like, why wouldn’t they? Right? It’s almost a gift for them to be able to know what you’re available for and share you within that network.
So, yeah, that is tier one.
Tier two, my all time favorite, defacto team, service providers, collaborators.
And this is where we’re gonna focus the majority of the time. It’s the one that we have all the worksheety, things on. But, essentially, who are you working with when you plug yourself into a team? Right? So the landing page designers, the funnel builders, the automation specialists, the person putting those emails into the CRM, into ActiveCampaign, HubSpot, whatever they’re using, ads managers, media buyers, who’s sending traffic to that landing page you just built.
Project managers, integrators, you know, operations, customer service managers even. Right? Like, in my interview process, I love, love, love talking to customer service managers, you know, sales directors.
These people who typically don’t get included in the copy process but have so much to say about the customers that they’re having sales conversations with, that they’re serving on the back end, such a rich source. And in my experience, they just love being included on that because, yeah, they don’t even get enough love internally. No one asks them. Marketing never asks sales or customer service.
So, yeah, awesome. They’ll love it. So these are people, I’ve really enjoyed building relationships with both for, yeah, both for getting the research I need, as well as delivering a result that can be well integrated with the team. Right?
Like, there’s no point me writing a long form sales page without first checking in with the designer. Right? Like, how do you enjoy collaborating with a copywriter? Right?
Like, you know, do you want me to is it helpful if I start wireframing some parts of this? Right? Is it helpful if I give, you know, screenshots of other sales pages that I really loved how they laid out a certain section? Right?
Or do you like to have just copy? Right? So just having these brief conversations, can go a long way and also the performance of the project itself and making sure that your work translates onto the page or the CRM or the, automated sequence appropriately.
So this has been, by far, my favorite referral source and the one with the longest shelf life. So So a past or current client may refer one person one time, but a media buyer or ad specialist that handles fifteen or even twenty or more accounts per year may refer you five or more times per year over multiple years. This has been my experience. The volume of referrals from tier two, gosh, it doesn’t stop.
Like, every month, I still get referrals from a media buyer, a designer, an automation person that I’ve worked with, like, three years ago. Like, it just doesn’t stop. And for whatever reason, that a lot of people go into tier two. So tier two has been, by far, the most lucrative source of referrals and the easiest one.
And it’s easy because designers, media buyers, funnel builders, strategists, integrators, oh, they all need great copy to make their thing work and thus make them look good. They need you. They need your genius. They need what you do.
They need to bring you onto other projects so that they can continue looking good, especially media buyers. Like, this has just been true for anyone running Facebook ads. Like, they are creating, like, new ad creatives all the time. They’re testing new angles all the time, and they need those angles to perform.
They need that copy to perform for their, for their benchmarks, for their KPIs to actually be hidden. So they need copywriters, and they’re the most invested and incentivized referral tier. Like, they’re not doing you a favor. You’re doing them as much of a favor as they’re doing you on this type of referral.
So, worksheets, you can work on this now. We can work on it later, but, really, this is all we have. So it’s so simple, almost like obnoxiously simple, but, like, list out, like, three five like, three to five people on your current defacto team. Like, people you are working with within, the projects you’re working on.
Right? Ideally, people who are also freelancers, but they could be in house as well. So many of these referral sources have been in house people who have transitioned to other organizations who have transitioned to freelance over the years. But just list three to five people, like, on these current teams you’re working with, and just put a check mark if you wanna schedule a fifteen minute coffee coffee chat with them.
Right?
And aim to have three to five of these conversations every month, like, fifteen to twenty minutes. It’s like an hour a month, and I promise you, it is an hour really, really well spent. So, on the worksheet, three to five people you can think of that would be, beneficial to have a fifteen minute chat with for the sake of the project you’re currently working on or just even a get to know each app.
Agenda topics.
Favorite one has always been what you can do to make their job easier. Right? So designer, wireframe, or no wireframes. If I’m working with a funnel builder or an automation specialist and I’m writing, like, these long email sequences that have, you know, tags, They have lists that need to be suppressed, segmentation.
Right? All these things that get really confusing unless you actually, like, list it out. Like, send it to this list but not this list. Tag them if they click this.
Like, ask them. Right? Like, how do you wanna partner? Like, what is the best way for me to make this so clear for you?
Right? That could be Loom videos. That could be, like, notes in your Google Docs. But just get on the same page and make them feel like they had a say in that process, and that you’re really looking out for them to make sure that they could do their job effectively.
Next topic topic of conversation that’s been so much fun and rewarding and useful and beneficial for the success of the project is just customer insights. What can they offer you to help you in your role? Right? So customer service director, reps, sales manager, sales reps, that has always been a great source of that.
And then if they’re freelance, if they’re on contract, or if it’s an agency, right, essentially asking them what type of clients do they love working with. Right? So be the first person to ask that question to them. Right?
Like, say that, you know, like, as you go about on your freelance journey, right, in your agency, like, referrals are gonna come up. Who do they love working with? Who are they open to referrals for? Right?
And, naturally, they’re gonna reciprocate on that question.
And then, simply, when wrapping a project, especially if, like, that’s kind of, like, a close to that relationship, just share a note. Right? It could be an email. So this is a simple email I’ve sent to, like, members of a team after I’ve wrapped a project, whether it’s a launch or an evergreen funnel.
I’ve sent this kind of email to the designer, the automation team, the media guys. It’s just like, yeah. Share specifically what you appreciated about them, their skills, their craft, and just say, you’d love to collaborate in the future whenever that opportunity presents itself. Right?
It goes such a long way and so simple to do.
So how do we maintain this network even if we’re not, like, crazy social people who love doing all this stuff.
My system, as it evolved into a system, was super simple. It’s really just like a spreadsheet.
So keep a spreadsheet, right, of these three to five people per project you work with, right, or any, like, CRM or whatever you use. Right? You can even create tasks for this. You can put it on your calendar.
Just aim to keep in touch every six to twelve months. Add them on socials, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, like like pictures of their cats. Like, just stay in touch any way you need to, and build that genuine relationship and connection and stay top of mind so that when the next project arises, it’s just so easy to think think of you again, right, because you’ve stayed top of mind.
So a reasonable goal is to create two to three new connections or potential referral partners on every new client account or team you work on. So if you work on just seven accounts or clients per year, that could be fourteen to twenty one referral partners who are highly motivated and invested in bringing you onto their other clients’ projects when the opportunity presents. And that isn’t just short term. In my experience, this extends multiple years.
And I haven’t even executed this strategy much much over the last year. Like, most of my network was built probably, like, three years ago, four years ago, five years ago, and those are still the referrals, that keep driving new leads and new projects.
Final one, other copywriters. Not gonna spend too too much time here, but, essentially, there are three aspects to this one. So copywriters who work on complementary things.
So you might be world class at trial to page sequences for SaaS. They’re killer pricing pages.
Very obvious. Client overflow, another very common one. So you work on a similar thing, but they’re overbooked. And the client in question, they can’t wait, like, four months until, you know, their wait list, you know, is complete.
Right? They need that project done now, and you you essentially have a choice. Right? You have a choice.
You could refer that to someone within your copy family, or you could have that person, like, be lost forever. Right? So client overflow, don’t underestimate the power of this one. So definitely, build relationships with copywriters who are doing a very similar thing.
That one has turned out to be a win win win multiple, multiple, multiple times. And then there’s the torch pass. Right? So fellow freelancer, who may be pivoting into a different space.
They may be building a new company. They may be taking a sabbatical, maternity, paternity leave, retiring, whatever it is. Right? It is someone in your space doing your thing, but they need to hand off their client roster, really quick to someone who is competent, someone who could take care of their clients at a very high level and a very high standard.
So these are the three types of referrals I’ve participated with with other copywriters. All of them have been really fun, really rewarding. So, yeah, keep those in mind, as you build your network with other copywriters.
Process for activating this tier, really simple. I mean, be visible, known, and clear in what you do within your paid or free copy communities.
Have a short list of the three or five copywriters who share a similar space and work with your dream clients. Get to know them, have chats with them wherever you can, and a short list of three to five copywriters who work on other complimentary pieces of the funnel for the same type of clients. So definitely have a copy chat with these folks. Like, these are your people to really build that automated referral network with, within tier three.
So we covered a lot of ground. I really want to focus more on tier two, but couldn’t ignore the other ones. So I’m going to keep quiet, get off this. Thirty minutes in.
Not too bad. And, yeah, open to questions, comments.
Yeah, anything that would be helpful for y’all.
I think that getting on coffee with the team has been one of the best pieces of advice, like, I’ve been given. I found, like, particularly ad strategist, it’s so helpful. Like, they always have referrals. I think what I need to work on more is that tier two, like, actually nurturing those relationships, because I’m definitely not doing I’m not actively trying to stay top of mind.
And the only other comment I had was I’ve what I have struggled with is getting referrals from clients. I think because I work on, like, a lot of funnels for one client, they tend to, like, not wanna refer me. They’re kind of they they’re always like, oh, we don’t wanna share you, and they kind of they joke about it. But, it’s like, have you, I mean, have you encountered that and found, like, a way to Yeah.
So that’s a real phenomena. Like and they say it, like, jokingly, and part of them is, like, really serious. Like, they wanna they wanna, like, gatekeep you. Yeah.
And it’s, like, such a compliment to how much they value you, and it’s also really annoying. Right?
How have I managed that?
Good question. I think it’s like so so if they’re, like, really wanting to gatekeep you, then they’re not going to refer you unless, like, you specifically ask. Right? So there’s that element, right, where, like, you could definitely send out that email or a version of that email that I shared, like, at the conclusion of a project.
So, like, they know you have the bandwidth. Right? And you could also reassure them in that email. Right?
Like, you’re fully available and committed to the projects that you have laid out. Right?
So that’s option one. Option number two is to just be less reliant on it and really focus on tier two. Like, tier two, even when tier one is done super well, like, tier two is the one where most of my referrals have come from.
So, yeah, I didn’t yeah. I wouldn’t focus too much on a solve for that problem and just see where the opportunity is for easier wins, I guess. And I think the easiest one is just, like, yeah, highlight those three to five people on each project or even two to three depending on, like, who you resonate with. Like, I’m not encouraging you to build relationships with people, like, you just wouldn’t wanna chat with outside of that project.
Yeah. There should be two to three on every project, at least, I would say.
Mhmm. And, yeah, just focus on that one.
Yep. Cool. Thanks, Ryan.
Cool. My pleasure.
Yeah. I think this is, I know that this has been true for I I haven’t worked with a lot of teams as a freelancer because a lot of the clients I work with are very small start ups at the moment.
But I have reached out to a lot of my old colleagues because I worked with a lot. It was, like, embedded in a lot of acquisition teams.
So I will reach out to a lot of my old colleagues because all of them have moved on to new companies Right.
And just ask them if they need help. And most of them have said yes. So that’s sort of been a a version of that.
Yep.
That has definitely been and, also, like, I already have that well established relationship because we work together, so they already know me. We’ve already done plenty of coffee chats, already have their phone number. So it’s easy to reach out and be like, oh, hey.
If you ever need any help, I’m here.
Cool. Has that been a source of referrals for you?
Yeah. For sure. Actually, I also got two clients from interviews where they didn’t hire me. And then I reached out to them, and I was like, you should hire me as if like, they were I was interviewing for a different position, and they didn’t give me the position because it was, like, more of a campaign manager or product marketing manager.
And it it was fine. Like, it also would not have been a good fit.
But then either they reached out to me or I reached out to them. And so now that’s true for, like, two or three different companies that they’re my long standing clients now.
Mhmm.
So I think that have definitely helped.
Yeah. That’s awesome.
When you say that, like, you don’t typically work with teams, like, who’s the one who’s typically, like, implementing your work either from, like, a design standpoint or a development standpoint or, yeah, any of those?
Well, I guess I guess I’m working Usually, I’m just working with one person. Usually, it’s like a very small marketing team, like two or three people because, let me tell you, marketing teams just do not have the budget for extra people.
So if they’re a series a, series b, like, they are barely scraping by.
They do not have any budget for media buying. And, like, ideally, I’d like to move into slightly larger companies, ideally outside of Israel where they have more money at the moment.
Mhmm.
But for them, it’s usually, like, one person. Or Mhmm. They have, like, onboarded me, and it’s a retainer, and I’m implementing.
Right. Right.
Myself.
I do have one new client that’s a little bit larger. Mhmm.
And the, like, campaign manager I think they call them, like, life cycle managers. Mhmm. This is more B2C oriented.
They’ll reach out to me, and I’ll just send it to them in a Google Doc.
Cool.
But, yeah, hopefully, as I start working with more companies that are more similar to the companies I used to work with when I was in house, then I can implement those same strategies, but it has been useful for me.
Awesome.
Nonetheless.
Got it. Cool. Yep.
Do you ever send a thank you gift as a token of you know, like, something as a token?
I have. Yeah. To clients you’re talking about specifically. Right?
To client or any I guess, anybody who refers you and lead, you know, results in business.
Yeah.
The short answer is, like, yes.
And it’s not, like, an automatic process where, like, you know, as soon as this referral is done, I contact my VA, and they have this specific list of gifts to order and send. Like, no. It’s, like, totally scrappy, like, as I feel inspired and as I feel, like, genuinely grateful.
And, like like, I’ve dropped the ball on that many times. Like, I’ll admit that. Right? Where it’s just like, you intend to, you want to, but it’s a crazy week, and then it’s two weeks later and you feel like it’s too late, but then you feel really awkward about it. And, like, like, I’ve been there.
But, yeah, like, gifting has definitely been part of it. I’ve definitely sent gifts to members of the team. Right?
Like project integrators, project managers in particular, because I noticed that they’re typically the ones who drive that decision to bring you on to the next project, the next project.
And they’re typically the ones that I’ve worked most closely with. Right? Not necessarily the CEO or the founder.
So, yeah, I’ve definitely enjoyed, like, surprising members of the team with gifts because they just don’t expect it, and it’s fun. It’s cool to gift.
So in that in that scenario, are you just sending a gift as a thank you after the project wraps? You’re like, it’s really great working with you. Here’s a little delightful surprise.
Yes. Totally. So there used to be, like, gifting apps that I used. I can’t remember all of them, but, like, they were really easy to, like, send and have them redeemed.
Mhmm.
Like, physical mail, like, I’ve sent that to you, but I live in Canada. Most of my clients are in the US, and it would take, like, a few extra weeks, which which is fine. Right? It gets it gets there when it gets there.
Like, when it comes to, like there’s a great book on gifting. I can’t remember what it was called, but, like, there are a few things that does that does anyone remember, like, a book on gifting?
No. That seems really weird to me.
Because it’s such a weird thing.
But, like I mean, like, give someone that as a gift just to, like, mess with them.
Right. A book on gifting? Oh gosh. I don’t know how I’d receive that. If I was gifted a book on gifting yeah. It’d probably be the end of the friendship. I’d be like, I don’t know what to do with this.
Yeah.
But what was it? Anyway, like, I think the point that I was trying to make was the gifts that I would send would just be, like, inspired by a conversation I had with the person. Right? Like, an interest I know they have.
Right? Or just something I know about them that I picked up from working together. So, like, those were the was the ones I’d, like, I felt most inspired to give versus, like I don’t know. Like, what’s a typical client gift?
Like yeah.
Like You’re not doing, like oh, sorry.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Another gift that, like, really landed well, like and, like, I just did it because I was inspired, like, spur at the moment, was like, I knew where my client lived. Right? And I just, like, booked them a massage, like, fifteen to a spa, like, twenty minutes from their house. Right? Like, stressful launch vibes and, like, you know, treat yourself after this. Like, I’ve treated my client and their local team to dinner. Like, that was a bit of an expensive gift, but it was, like, one of those, like, higher ticket launches I helped with.
So, yeah, things that, like, don’t just get tucked away but actually have a lot of meaning and a lot of value, in the relationship that also feel really good to gift are things that I would do. And I wish in retrospect that I was, like, more consistent with it and didn’t let my own, like, overwhelm and stress, like, get in the way of me actually doing it consistently and doing it well.
Yeah.
I don’t know if this will help, but I did had a really, really good find for a gift.
And this kind of only worked for me because all of my clients are local, and I was able to drop it off. But I found a local baker that makes macaroons, and I had her make macaroons in my colors, in my brand colors. Oh. And then they would, like, be boxed well, different size boxes, but there would be a few with logos. She, like, took a piece of fondant and printed my logo on it. Mhmm.
And they were, like, homemade.
It was, like, somebody working out of their house.
Everyone loved it. The macaroons were really delicious. They were local. They were fresh.
So I don’t know if, like, maybe you can find somebody near them, but it was a huge hit as opposed to, like, giving somebody a water bottle or a notebook that they’re never gonna use again.
Right. Right.
Okay. So this is I mean but it sounds like you don’t have a these are, like, thank you gifts to show appreciation after you’ve worked with them. You don’t have a systematized kickback system for people who refer.
I don’t.
No. No.
I did do that, like, a couple times.
Just, I feel like maybe it would depend on the situation. Like, I, yeah, I did that a couple times with, with clients who referred me Mhmm. Because I felt like they were taking a chance or, like, sticking their neck me, and I was really grateful for the new type of work. But, yeah, I don’t haven’t, made it a systematized thing, like a standard practice.
I was curious though if you did.
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like amazing if you can. Right? Like and we can only do so many things and systematize so many things.
Right? So, like, it’s one of those things where, like, looking back, I’m like, yeah. I wish I did that. Right?
And I didn’t. Right? For whatever reason. Right? Like, overwhelm, enough on my plate, stress, like, doing too many things, like, all at once. But, yeah, I think if you can find a way to do it, like, it’s definitely gonna help you more than not. So yeah.
Mhmm. Cool. Cool. Anything else on this topic, or should we dive into some copy?
Sweet. Seems like we’re going complete on that.
Naomi, did you wanna share something?
I also I have a question that I would love if you could or, Anantra, I’d love if you could help me out with.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
If nobody’s back. No. You can go. You can go.
Oh, I didn’t realize I was on mute. Sorry. I was trying to bring up the file, but go ahead if you wanna ask.
Okay. It’s hopefully a quickish one.
So I worked I worked on a launch in January.
It was a it was a good launch, and then we ever grow in-depth. So I set up a day on every funnel, and I thought it was converting really well. But it turns out, like, most of, like, ninety percent of the sales are actually coming just from ads to sales page.
Mhmm.
So, yeah, I’m, like, optimizing the webinar funnel, but I’m kind of like, is the best way to optimize it just to be like, let’s just run ads in sales page. It’s performing so much better. Like, the webinar funnels, I think, converting at, like, two percent. And then for the ads, it’s, like, twenty four dollars for a twelve hundred dollar sale.
But I, like, I don’t wanna do that because it kind of like, I don’t wanna, like, admit that my system isn’t working as well as just a sales page. And I’m confused as to, like, why that would be happening. Like, why would a sales page alone convert better than a webinar and emails?
Right.
Any thoughts going on?
What what’s the product, and what’s the price point?
It’s a bookkeeping course, and it’s twelve hundred dollars.
Bookkeeping course for twelve hundred dollars, and it’s converting better ad to sales page at twelve hundred dollars?
Yeah. Weird. Right?
Yeah. It’s a little surprising.
Like, how how like, is it close? Like, I missed some of those metrics you just shared.
Like No.
It’s not close. It’s like so, basically, I set up the webinar funnel, and then I wrote retargeting ads to with the to go to people that have clicked on the sales page. But the ads strategy is kind of messed up, and the retargeting ads just went to everyone. But then they were performing so well, like, twenty four dollars per sale sale. That the media buyer was like, let’s just leave them on. Yeah.
And, like, they’re absolutely sure, like, that’s all cold audience?
Or they’re I I they haven’t been through the webinar funnel.
Then they might not be completely cold. There is a mix of warm and cold, but they haven’t watched the webinar.
Mhmm. So what, like, what warm ish audiences might be mixed in there, I guess, is what I’m asking.
Like As just people that have bought other products, been on the site.
Like, they have a very loyal audience.
Yeah. I mean, it would make sense if, like, a warm audience is getting directed straight to the sales page versus a cold audience going through the webinar funnel. Right? So, like, that could have something to do with it if they bought something before, if they’re familiar with her.
Like, if they’re already bought on the idea of, like, her her process and the goal, right, like, of doing that thing, then, yeah, straight to sales page to that audience who’s already aware of her and, you know, even, like, product aware or solution aware. Like, that will convert more than the webinar funnel to cold. Right? So it’s like I think it’s less about the funnel and more that the webinar funnel was going all to cold, and you’re measuring that against these retargeting ads that were going out to a mix of warm and cold without knowing exactly what that ratio is.
Like, my guess would be there’s more warm within that ad set than cold. Like, that would be my guess. And it’s like pure like, I just don’t see a reality where those are all cold cold, like, having never heard of her before.
Yeah. That’s such a good point. I mean, I did see that some of them had watched the live webinar in January as well. So Yeah. Okay. So I should just focus on optimizing the webinar, like, under with reason to believe it’s for to a college audience.
And then I would say so.
Right? Like like, I know it’s a tough argument to make with, you know, the media buyer and even the client. Right? If they see, like, the return on the ad spend or that set that’s going straight to the sales page.
I think the argument I’d make, right, is, like, if we don’t know how much of that is already warm and maybe you can find that out. Right? Like, you def definitely, like, check-in on those buyers if they’re on the CRM and see their history. Yeah. Right? Like, to some degree. Like, I would really be curious how much of those are, like, cold, cold, and that was their very first interaction with the brand.
Yeah. But alt but, ultimately, like, at some point, you’re going to run out of a warm audience unless you have the funnel to convert cold. Right? So, I’d keep them both even if, like, one looks like it’s way over performing outperforming the other one right now. I think just a lack of clarity of how many of those are truly new leads.
Yeah. If if it’s not all new leads, you definitely need a funnel for cold leads to warm them up. So, yeah, I’d kinda, like, leave with that as the main argument.
But it is weird. Yeah. And, like yeah. I just don’t really see a reality where, like, with both audiences being equal, like, the cold to a twelve hundred dollar product would way outperform, like, the webinar funnel.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. It’s it’s annoying because I I saw, like, they made, like, eighty thousand, and I was like, yay. They won Evergreen.
And then I was like, what?
Mhmm. So disappointing.
But, yeah. No. That makes sense. I didn’t even think about whether it’d be warm or cold traffic. So, yeah, I’ll leave them both on and just keep optimizing and hope that the conversion rate goes up.
Yeah.
Cool. Cheers.
Okay. So this is the company that I interviewed for last year, and it was sort of like a campaign manager position. And I kept giving them good ideas for copy, And they kept asking me about how I would manage the campaign. So I think I’m getting that job.
But they came back to me recently, and hired me anyways. Cool. So the original the good version is I, I I didn’t see their entire brief, so I just wrote it the way I wanted to write it. Okay.
So I introduced I I included a lot of interesting sparkly details that I got from some of the articles on the current state of the insurance home insurance business.
Yep.
And the second one is the, set of emails I recently wrote, that’s more that it hears a little bit more closely to their, guidelines that I think is kinda boring, but I’m not really sure how to improve it. So thought I would Got it. Show both of those.
Perfect.
So it’s the same one. I just did a longer and a shorter version.
Got it. Alright.
So they’re comparing home insurance premiums or comparing home insurance rates with this tool.
Yep. Sweet. Has and this hasn’t run yet?
Or it They they said I didn’t actually see the brief that they sent.
It was, like, on the second page, and I missed it. So this Okay. Was never sent to anyone, but I included it just as, like, comparison. Like, this is what I would write if I had no restrictions. And then the second one is, like, more close to their brand guidelines, but I think it’s really dull and really boring, But they keep going to be shorter and tighter. But Right.
Got it.
I’m not really sure what to do. So you just see, this one is a little bit more story oriented.
It’s a little bit draws you a little bit more.
Yep. Exactly. I have reference points for these.
And just for the record, she did say she liked she did say that she liked it. Mhmm. This wasn’t according to their brand voice.
Mhmm. This one wasn’t according to their brand voice.
Yeah.
And, like, based primarily on, like, this section here?
Yeah. Their brand voice is a little bit more enthusiastic.
I got it. Yeah.
Short to the point. Mhmm. Look at the ones on the second tab that I wrote today.
Yep.
You’ll see that there’s hints of that of those kind of stories from the first one, but it’s a lot more watered down. It’s a lot more to the point. Right.
I don’t really feel like I’m doing anything.
I feel like I’m just, like, taking everything that they say and making sure that it’s readable and putting everything down on a page.
So these are people who, submitted for a quote on an online form and then can follow through with it, essentially?
They got a quote or two, and then they went through the flow, and then they churned.
And they’re trying to get them to talk to an agent Got it.
Cool.
To either go through it or to potentially add coverage for other insurance items.
Yep. Cool. I like the subject line because that really warrants us in that context.
Yeah. All three of these, actually.
If you like many.
Maybe you have this information, maybe you don’t. Like, what is the main driver or motivating factor for people submitting a quote? Is it, like, that they already have home insurance, but it’s up for renewal and got a price hike?
Is that correct?
So that’s what they sent me some news articles. Apparently, home insurance rates are skyrocketing all across the country, and there’s more and more claims. Some insurance companies have to raise their rates.
Right.
So I figured I would bring that piece of relevant news, to to the table. And Yeah. A lot of people feel like prices have gone up.
Yep.
So it can feel like every turn brings another price hike. I think, like, if you were to ground this in specificity, there might even be an opportunity to, like, in brackets, like, underneath it saying, like, you know, maybe you’re up for renewal and, you know, essentially, you know, your home insurance company reward your loyalty with a twenty percent plus hike. Right? Like, that is typically the reason I think like, I’m not an insurance industry expert, but, typically, it’s like, you know, you get kind of, like, the renewal notice. They raise your rate even though you didn’t, like, claim anything, and you’re like, bastards. I’m gonna get them by switching to someone else. So maybe you could capture some of that here or at least mirror that back.
That’s why I definitely don’t want to let a recent quote or address get lost in your inbox. Hippo has teamed up with forty plus trusted carriers. You got the perfect number of your company at a reasonable price.
So I mean, it’s like the languaging is fair.
Like, I almost, like, glaze over reasonable price. Like, it doesn’t feel it it feels like what an insurance company would say, and maybe, like, they have to say it that way. Right? But it’s like, how could that be kind of upgraded?
Reasonable? Like, what? Are people, like, are people looking for reasonable, or are they looking for fair, or are they looking for better?
Like I think there’s a lot of indignant at the fact that insurance prices are are skyrocketing, and this is especially true in California where I think a lot of differences.
And so I was trying to capture that sense of indigence.
Mhmm. Awesome.
I have a question. Do you mention forty plus trusted carriers to, point out the fact that that, they’re gonna get the best rate because you have so many to choose from.
Yeah. Yeah.
That was one of the requirements that they asked me to include.
So it’s it’s like comparing different rates, essentially. Mhmm. They have, like, a couple of different solutions that they offer.
Mhmm.
So one thing you may consider adding here is, like, a reasonable price without having to, you know, submit for dozens of quotes and getting overwhelmed in the process. Right? Because, like, if they’re churning, it’s and if they submitted a quote to this company, chances are they’ve been submitting quotes, and they’ve been getting retargeted, like or targeted on Facebook from, from, like, every other insurance company. That’s typically what happens when, like like, I I submitted a quote.
I, like, changed my car insurance, like, a few weeks ago. And, like, every other car insurance company, Facebook feed right now. Right? So, like, that could be a reason they’re turning, and you could just kind of, like, include that here without having to, you know, submit quotes to every company that hits your feed, right, or whatever.
So that could be an anti churn strategy or preempting that, or addressing the reason why they might be.
But yeah. Otherwise, that’s good.
This is Yeah.
These ones are all different.
Yep.
So the second one is they want they want them to add earthquake coverage or other coverage, but specifically earthquakes for California, and the third one is there are several different kinds. So the third one, I was able to include a little bit of a a story.
Okay.
That one, I thought, was probably the best even though that was a watered down version. Yeah. That one.
This one here. Yep.
Yeah. It was a little bit longer at first, but cut it down. Mhmm. Because I can like, that’s the other thing that I hear over and over and over again.
They always tell me, Naomi, this is too negative. This is this is not our brand language. We don’t wanna scare people. We don’t wanna get people down.
That’s not gonna make people convert. I’ve heard that at least a hundred thousand times. And so the kind of material that makes really good stories is the kind of copy that always get cut always gets cut for me.
Right.
Yeah. It’s it’s interesting. I don’t have the research to, like, really inform this. Right? But, like, is there is there is the customer’s, like, main driver here just, like, to get the best price and move on?
Right? Or is it features of the protection and really making sure that they’re protected and feel secure? Right? And, like, I don’t know which one of those weighs in more of the more inside the head of, like, your specific client.
Like, if it’s really just about, like, price, right, like, reasonable price amidst all these, like, skyrocketing things, then I agree. Right? Like, the story should be more about, like, feeling, like like, this is fair and reasonable and that their budget isn’t under attack, and now they still have enough income, right, to focus on the things they really wanna, like, focus on. Right?
Like, no one wants to pay for insurance. Right? And, like, I think just having that acknowledgment is helpful. Right?
Like, if they are primarily concerned about price versus all the details of protection. So I think, like, that’s a really important question for the client. Like, it’s, like, what’s the main driver? So, like, the types of protection, the level of protection, and feeling the trust in the protection, or is it best price and move on and forget about it?
Like, what is driving that buying decision?
I think for these second two emails, it’s that you may not get as much flood or earthquake insurance just to realize because those are not usually covered under specific under Yeah.
Home coverage plan.
Yep. Got it.
I don’t think you’re being too negative. Like, I think, like, you’re mentioning what it does, right, the features of the product, and that’s what they’re getting insurance for. So they the feedback on this one was too negative?
No. No.
I’m just saying that’s what I’ve been doing a thousand times.
Got it. Got it.
The things that I don’t see as negatives. So it has to be short. It has to be positive. It has to be enthusiastic, but I still wanna make it interesting. So Yep.
Yeah. Trying to look for ways to help it come through.
Yeah. Have they been, like, specific in terms of, like, what short means to them?
The last time I got a, like, a a template of what they had in their last email Mhmm.
And so that was helpful. But I would say that, like, this is probably the limit to the number of words. Like, a hundred and fifty words for the email would probably be pushing it.
Mhmm. Got it.
Like, I don’t wanna harp on, like, oh my gosh. What’s gonna happen if you don’t get all of this coverage?
There’s gonna be a flood that destroys your house, and Yeah.
We’ll be able to pay for your grandmother’s retirement home. And if you get sick, like you know? Mhmm.
Oh, totally. Yeah.
Like, you can go really far with this, and I don’t wanna Yeah.
No. I I I agree. Right? Like, those stories probably will just kinda repel more than yeah.
They’re difficult to read. Like, that’s the thing. Right? Like, no one even wants wants to, like, visualize those realities, or, like, the word pictures that, like, come to mind, like, when you read over it.
But, yeah, you’re talking about these things specifically. It protects you in your yeah. I mean, generally, like, I agree with that, like, general orientation, right, on the lighter side, on the shorter side, and more focused on, like, the immediate benefit that they’re doing this for, right, which is peace of mind or price. Right?
And, like, what that means and how that appears. Right? Like, feel like this is done, you’re covered, and you can just enjoy your life. Right?
So, yeah, like, that’s really the extent of it. I think, like, these are generally good. I think that there might be opportunity that I use I use the word might. It’s not a hard recommend. But, like, just languaging that mirrors back why they may have churned, right, and to essentially reflect that proximity to the solution, right, so that they don’t need to be in this, like, weeks long process of spending hours on the phone with other providers. I think that connects to your feature of, like, forty plus trusted carriers.
Is, like, your partner there so that they don’t need to have endless conversations, you know, price shopping. Right? You know, like, you can even have a subject line like price shopping question mark. Right? And an email that just focuses on, like, you’re already in touch with forty plus carriers. Right? And you’re gonna get them that best price and save them dozens of hours of just, like, nonstop calls.
So Okay.
Yeah. But generally, good stuff. Yeah.
I see you have a few different, like, call to action options as well. Has that been, like, tested or something that your client wants to test?
Well, it’s a it’s a different it’s a different action.
Right.
We wanted them to just get the quote.
That’s when we wanted them to actually talk to somebody because they already got the quote.
Got it.
Data flows.
Cool.
Alright. Thank you. This is actually Great. This is helpful.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Cool. Cool. Any final notes or questions before we wrap, or is everyone good for today?
Guess we’re good.
Cool. Thanks all. Have an awesome rest of the week.
Bye.
Bye.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
Alright. Everyone seeing that okay?
Beautiful.
Alright. So one thing I’m noticing is I always, like, title these things with, with, like, a super direct response headline, and then I realize I have to say it out loud in a really casual way later. And it’s just, like, really awkward. So I almost don’t wanna read, like, the title of this.
I’ll just, like, let that be on the screen for three seconds and let y’all read it so I don’t have to speak copy of that. There we go. A dead simple automated referral network to secure decades worth of well paid cut projects without awkward ass or fake as fuck friendships. There we go.
I said it about that. I got it on myself.
Cool. So this is all about my referral system.
Yeah. I don’t know. I think I’ve taught this more pieces of this, like, once or twice in various bonuses and various trainings, but the beaniest part or the meatiest part is the one that I’ve always kind of, like, went a little bit too quickly. Like, it’s also been, like, stuffed within a bigger training. So I really want to take the opportunity to, like, really give this one the time and the process to have it implemented because it’s, by far, been, like, my most impactful, client acquisition system over almost a decade. So, yeah, we’re gonna formalize it, process it, processize it, and make it real, and it’s real if it’s on a worksheet. So there we go.
Fun fact one.
Eighty five percent, I’d say, more than eighty five percent of the clients I’ve served over the last decade were referral based, and the other fifteen percent was a combo of guest presenting and masterminds.
So, yeah, this is also in a very specific order. So guest presenting and masterminds, another awesome source, live events, great source, and podcast, social posting, all that stuff, a distant third. So eighty five percent from referrals. Then of that remaining fifteen percent, I’d say, like, most of that was live events and guest guest presenting in courses and masterminds.
Fun fact two, never run ads, cool DM, or dance on TikTok.
Nothing wrong with any of these. Not hating on any of these. I’d do them if I could. I’d dance if I could, but I can’t.
And when you’re almost forty, you just kind of accept that, like, I’m not meant to go through this lifetime with dance moves. And, yeah, you make up for it in other ways. So, yeah, Joe could attest to this. I was at her wedding.
I I was awful on the dance floor. The worst. I avoided the dance floor at all costs until I had no choice. So fun fact to you.
Fun fact three. I’m an awkward Canadian who forgets to call my own family members on their birthday. I’ve been characterized as misanthropic, but I’m really not. I don’t think I am.
And all this to say that I’m so far from perfect in cultivating and maintaining business relationships. Like, this isn’t an area I consider myself to be a ten on ten at.
Yeah. It’s weird for me, and I do it imperfectly.
And, yeah, I just want that to be known. Like, to implement these strategies, you don’t have to be, like, the most social, human y person in the world.
And there’s so much margin or imperfection in all that. And fun fact four, I’ve systematized all of this after the fact. Meaning, while I was using it, it was all by accident and highly successful without ever formalizing it or turning it into a process. Meaning, if you turn this into a process and use some of the steps I’ll give you in this training, you’ll probably crush it and, like, blow my results with it out of the water.
So that’s my hope is that, yeah, you take what I did accidentally, formalize it, make it real, make it a process, make it a task you can actually do, and, yeah, beat my results on it. So without further ado, the three tiered automatic referral network. So tier one is your current or your past clients. So what makes you referable?
We could have, like, a sixty minute discussion just on this.
Typically, when clients have referred me, I’d ask them, like, what made you think of me? Right? Like, what made you refer me? Like, what made you feel comfortable referring me?
Like, that’s the one question I would always ask after I said thank you for the referral, of course. But, yeah, why did you refer me? Right? And that gives you so much juicy information about what they value about you and how it gets communicated to others.
So this has been what I’ve received back, in no particular order on this one at least. So performance, obviously, you gotta be getting results. They’re not not gonna refer you to their close network and their friends if you just can’t do what you say you’re gonna do, and it’s not working. So performance, that matters.
Probably above all else, communications, clear expectations.
The bar for this is still so low, and I think it’ll remain low forever because it’s been low forever.
But just be a decent communicator. Set clear expectations.
Like, the number one headache clients and project managers in particular have had is, like, I just don’t know if this is getting done. I don’t know if it’s being worked on. I don’t I can’t trust on the reliability of this freelancer to get the work done. So communication, clear expectations, vital, massive, huge, and makes you highly referable because they know you’re not gonna cause drama, stress, and energetic tax on the people they refer you out to, which is what they’re afraid that they’ll be responsible for in referring you out. Right? If you are an absolute nightmare, a mess, refusing, totally inflexible about everything, they feel like that comes back on them. So it’s like almost reverse engineer what makes you not referable and optimize against that.
So low drama, low stress, low energetic cost. Typically, the feedback I’ve had in response to the question of what made you refer me is you were so easy and simple to work with. Right? So take that for what it’s worth.
How can you be low drama, low energy cost, while, of course, still maintaining your boundaries and your scopes and pushing back where you have to. So, there we have it. And, finally, like, they know you’re open to taking more clients. So this is, like, an obvious one.
Right? It’s like, I’ve had clients want to refer me, but they simply just, like, said, oh, I didn’t know you were still taking clients. Right? Like, they just assumed I was fully booked up.
They just assumed that, like especially if you position yourself, I think, like, Joe had, like, the diva list way back in the day and a wait list. Right? Especially if you have a wait list and they had to wait to get on your calendar, they’re just gonna see my book full. Right?
So it’s just yeah. Like, they can refer you if they think that you’re not open for more business. So just making sure they know that.
That’s really the five aspects for tier one.
In most cases, when it comes to being referred by current or past clients, to be honest, I never even had to ask to be referred. It just kinda happened organically when the opportunity presented for them, and those five things were present.
And this is also how I preferred out freelancers that I’ve hired in the past. It was like, this person was awesome. They were easy to work with. Oh, opportunity here. Let me refer them. So a lot of these refer referrals will happen without a formal ask as long as those five things are present and true, but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t make an ask. So if you are going to make an ask, and you can, and you should if it feels right to do, Best time to do it in my view would be after a project has successfully wrapped and finalized, after you’ve had your postmortems, discussions about a retainer, discussions about continuity.
All that has been had. The project has been successful up until that point. Right? It is my belief, I guess, that the focus should be completely on serving that current client. And if you’re making that referral ask while there’s still some stuff left undone, it just feels a little bit premature. It almost feels like you’re moving on to a new relationship before giving your all to the current one, and that’s always a bit of just, yeah, not the best feeling in the world. So, yeah, best time would be after all those conversations have been had, after a project has successfully closed, and once that current client has felt like fully served within the scope of your project.
So how to do it?
Once again, awkward Canadian. There’s a million different ways to do it. I like doing it by email or by text, for two reasons. One, that’s probably where I feel most comfortable and least awkward.
But I’ve also heard from clients that they prefer to receive a referral request by email or text. Right? It could have them feel caught off guard in the moment if you say, like, by the way, like, do you have anyone to refer me to, right, in that moment? And then they go sign, then you go sign, and it’s just this, like, epically awkward moment you just both want to, like, disappear from, but can’t disappear because it’s in real time.
So, yeah, feedback I’ve had is they prefer having this, ask by email, and this is a little template that I’ve used. Right? So it’s like, hey, Naim. Really loved collaborating with you and your team on this. Right? So appreciate on them first.
It was awesome that we were able to achieve why. So the result you achieved, remind them of the results that you’ve had, that you can get the job done, right, as we said, on the five point criteria.
Then be super specific, like, epically specific about what you’re looking for. So this is, like, the number one complaint.
I’ve heard from, like, clients over the years. It’s just like, what am I referring you for? Right? Just be epically specific. So I’ll have three spots for a similar type of project next quarter.
So, like, specific timeline, like, when you’re available for it, like, how many spots are available human, course creator, biz owner, SaaS founder, like, whatever that is for them in your close network. So now you’re, So now you’re, shifting their attention to their close network for a very specific person who’s actively working on and then name the project that you’re available for, I’d so appreciate it appreciate the nitro. Right? So now it’s not a general, if you can think of anybody.
Right? I can’t think of anybody. Right? Like, you have to help my mind zero in on who that anybody is, for me to even think of that person.
So you’re just really kind of focusing their mind on that specific type of person.
And that’s sometimes I like to wrap it up with this. My best clients tend to be those who come into my world via other amazing humans and founders. Hey. That’s you, and it’s always a pleasure to bump them up on the priority queue wherever possible.
If you do have a referral fee that you offer, you can include it there.
What I don’t include, that I’ve seen a lot of people include is, like, if you can’t think about think of anyone, no worries. No problem. Just thought I’d ask. Like, don’t apologize for the referral.
Don’t let them off the hook without thinking about it.
I’ve seen that languaging come in my inbox. Like, if you could think of anyone who would be no. Sorry. I’ve had it come in my inbox.
If you can’t think of anyone, no worries. And I’m like, great. No worries. I don’t need to think about it.
So, yeah, I wouldn’t let them off the hook for that. Like, if you’ve done an amazing job, built an amazing relationship, like, why wouldn’t they? Right? It’s almost a gift for them to be able to know what you’re available for and share you within that network.
So, yeah, that is tier one.
Tier two, my all time favorite, defacto team, service providers, collaborators.
And this is where we’re gonna focus the majority of the time. It’s the one that we have all the worksheety, things on. But, essentially, who are you working with when you plug yourself into a team? Right? So the landing page designers, the funnel builders, the automation specialists, the person putting those emails into the CRM, into ActiveCampaign, HubSpot, whatever they’re using, ads managers, media buyers, who’s sending traffic to that landing page you just built.
Project managers, integrators, you know, operations, customer service managers even. Right? Like, in my interview process, I love, love, love talking to customer service managers, you know, sales directors.
These people who typically don’t get included in the copy process but have so much to say about the customers that they’re having sales conversations with, that they’re serving on the back end, such a rich source. And in my experience, they just love being included on that because, yeah, they don’t even get enough love internally. No one asks them. Marketing never asks sales or customer service.
So, yeah, awesome. They’ll love it. So these are people, I’ve really enjoyed building relationships with both for, yeah, both for getting the research I need, as well as delivering a result that can be well integrated with the team. Right?
Like, there’s no point me writing a long form sales page without first checking in with the designer. Right? Like, how do you enjoy collaborating with a copywriter? Right?
Like, you know, do you want me to is it helpful if I start wireframing some parts of this? Right? Is it helpful if I give, you know, screenshots of other sales pages that I really loved how they laid out a certain section? Right?
Or do you like to have just copy? Right? So just having these brief conversations, can go a long way and also the performance of the project itself and making sure that your work translates onto the page or the CRM or the, automated sequence appropriately.
So this has been, by far, my favorite referral source and the one with the longest shelf life. So So a past or current client may refer one person one time, but a media buyer or ad specialist that handles fifteen or even twenty or more accounts per year may refer you five or more times per year over multiple years. This has been my experience. The volume of referrals from tier two, gosh, it doesn’t stop.
Like, every month, I still get referrals from a media buyer, a designer, an automation person that I’ve worked with, like, three years ago. Like, it just doesn’t stop. And for whatever reason, that a lot of people go into tier two. So tier two has been, by far, the most lucrative source of referrals and the easiest one.
And it’s easy because designers, media buyers, funnel builders, strategists, integrators, oh, they all need great copy to make their thing work and thus make them look good. They need you. They need your genius. They need what you do.
They need to bring you onto other projects so that they can continue looking good, especially media buyers. Like, this has just been true for anyone running Facebook ads. Like, they are creating, like, new ad creatives all the time. They’re testing new angles all the time, and they need those angles to perform.
They need that copy to perform for their, for their benchmarks, for their KPIs to actually be hidden. So they need copywriters, and they’re the most invested and incentivized referral tier. Like, they’re not doing you a favor. You’re doing them as much of a favor as they’re doing you on this type of referral.
So, worksheets, you can work on this now. We can work on it later, but, really, this is all we have. So it’s so simple, almost like obnoxiously simple, but, like, list out, like, three five like, three to five people on your current defacto team. Like, people you are working with within, the projects you’re working on.
Right? Ideally, people who are also freelancers, but they could be in house as well. So many of these referral sources have been in house people who have transitioned to other organizations who have transitioned to freelance over the years. But just list three to five people, like, on these current teams you’re working with, and just put a check mark if you wanna schedule a fifteen minute coffee coffee chat with them.
Right?
And aim to have three to five of these conversations every month, like, fifteen to twenty minutes. It’s like an hour a month, and I promise you, it is an hour really, really well spent. So, on the worksheet, three to five people you can think of that would be, beneficial to have a fifteen minute chat with for the sake of the project you’re currently working on or just even a get to know each app.
Agenda topics.
Favorite one has always been what you can do to make their job easier. Right? So designer, wireframe, or no wireframes. If I’m working with a funnel builder or an automation specialist and I’m writing, like, these long email sequences that have, you know, tags, They have lists that need to be suppressed, segmentation.
Right? All these things that get really confusing unless you actually, like, list it out. Like, send it to this list but not this list. Tag them if they click this.
Like, ask them. Right? Like, how do you wanna partner? Like, what is the best way for me to make this so clear for you?
Right? That could be Loom videos. That could be, like, notes in your Google Docs. But just get on the same page and make them feel like they had a say in that process, and that you’re really looking out for them to make sure that they could do their job effectively.
Next topic topic of conversation that’s been so much fun and rewarding and useful and beneficial for the success of the project is just customer insights. What can they offer you to help you in your role? Right? So customer service director, reps, sales manager, sales reps, that has always been a great source of that.
And then if they’re freelance, if they’re on contract, or if it’s an agency, right, essentially asking them what type of clients do they love working with. Right? So be the first person to ask that question to them. Right?
Like, say that, you know, like, as you go about on your freelance journey, right, in your agency, like, referrals are gonna come up. Who do they love working with? Who are they open to referrals for? Right?
And, naturally, they’re gonna reciprocate on that question.
And then, simply, when wrapping a project, especially if, like, that’s kind of, like, a close to that relationship, just share a note. Right? It could be an email. So this is a simple email I’ve sent to, like, members of a team after I’ve wrapped a project, whether it’s a launch or an evergreen funnel.
I’ve sent this kind of email to the designer, the automation team, the media guys. It’s just like, yeah. Share specifically what you appreciated about them, their skills, their craft, and just say, you’d love to collaborate in the future whenever that opportunity presents itself. Right?
It goes such a long way and so simple to do.
So how do we maintain this network even if we’re not, like, crazy social people who love doing all this stuff.
My system, as it evolved into a system, was super simple. It’s really just like a spreadsheet.
So keep a spreadsheet, right, of these three to five people per project you work with, right, or any, like, CRM or whatever you use. Right? You can even create tasks for this. You can put it on your calendar.
Just aim to keep in touch every six to twelve months. Add them on socials, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, like like pictures of their cats. Like, just stay in touch any way you need to, and build that genuine relationship and connection and stay top of mind so that when the next project arises, it’s just so easy to think think of you again, right, because you’ve stayed top of mind.
So a reasonable goal is to create two to three new connections or potential referral partners on every new client account or team you work on. So if you work on just seven accounts or clients per year, that could be fourteen to twenty one referral partners who are highly motivated and invested in bringing you onto their other clients’ projects when the opportunity presents. And that isn’t just short term. In my experience, this extends multiple years.
And I haven’t even executed this strategy much much over the last year. Like, most of my network was built probably, like, three years ago, four years ago, five years ago, and those are still the referrals, that keep driving new leads and new projects.
Final one, other copywriters. Not gonna spend too too much time here, but, essentially, there are three aspects to this one. So copywriters who work on complementary things.
So you might be world class at trial to page sequences for SaaS. They’re killer pricing pages.
Very obvious. Client overflow, another very common one. So you work on a similar thing, but they’re overbooked. And the client in question, they can’t wait, like, four months until, you know, their wait list, you know, is complete.
Right? They need that project done now, and you you essentially have a choice. Right? You have a choice.
You could refer that to someone within your copy family, or you could have that person, like, be lost forever. Right? So client overflow, don’t underestimate the power of this one. So definitely, build relationships with copywriters who are doing a very similar thing.
That one has turned out to be a win win win multiple, multiple, multiple times. And then there’s the torch pass. Right? So fellow freelancer, who may be pivoting into a different space.
They may be building a new company. They may be taking a sabbatical, maternity, paternity leave, retiring, whatever it is. Right? It is someone in your space doing your thing, but they need to hand off their client roster, really quick to someone who is competent, someone who could take care of their clients at a very high level and a very high standard.
So these are the three types of referrals I’ve participated with with other copywriters. All of them have been really fun, really rewarding. So, yeah, keep those in mind, as you build your network with other copywriters.
Process for activating this tier, really simple. I mean, be visible, known, and clear in what you do within your paid or free copy communities.
Have a short list of the three or five copywriters who share a similar space and work with your dream clients. Get to know them, have chats with them wherever you can, and a short list of three to five copywriters who work on other complimentary pieces of the funnel for the same type of clients. So definitely have a copy chat with these folks. Like, these are your people to really build that automated referral network with, within tier three.
So we covered a lot of ground. I really want to focus more on tier two, but couldn’t ignore the other ones. So I’m going to keep quiet, get off this. Thirty minutes in.
Not too bad. And, yeah, open to questions, comments.
Yeah, anything that would be helpful for y’all.
I think that getting on coffee with the team has been one of the best pieces of advice, like, I’ve been given. I found, like, particularly ad strategist, it’s so helpful. Like, they always have referrals. I think what I need to work on more is that tier two, like, actually nurturing those relationships, because I’m definitely not doing I’m not actively trying to stay top of mind.
And the only other comment I had was I’ve what I have struggled with is getting referrals from clients. I think because I work on, like, a lot of funnels for one client, they tend to, like, not wanna refer me. They’re kind of they they’re always like, oh, we don’t wanna share you, and they kind of they joke about it. But, it’s like, have you, I mean, have you encountered that and found, like, a way to Yeah.
So that’s a real phenomena. Like and they say it, like, jokingly, and part of them is, like, really serious. Like, they wanna they wanna, like, gatekeep you. Yeah.
And it’s, like, such a compliment to how much they value you, and it’s also really annoying. Right?
How have I managed that?
Good question. I think it’s like so so if they’re, like, really wanting to gatekeep you, then they’re not going to refer you unless, like, you specifically ask. Right? So there’s that element, right, where, like, you could definitely send out that email or a version of that email that I shared, like, at the conclusion of a project.
So, like, they know you have the bandwidth. Right? And you could also reassure them in that email. Right?
Like, you’re fully available and committed to the projects that you have laid out. Right?
So that’s option one. Option number two is to just be less reliant on it and really focus on tier two. Like, tier two, even when tier one is done super well, like, tier two is the one where most of my referrals have come from.
So, yeah, I didn’t yeah. I wouldn’t focus too much on a solve for that problem and just see where the opportunity is for easier wins, I guess. And I think the easiest one is just, like, yeah, highlight those three to five people on each project or even two to three depending on, like, who you resonate with. Like, I’m not encouraging you to build relationships with people, like, you just wouldn’t wanna chat with outside of that project.
Yeah. There should be two to three on every project, at least, I would say.
Mhmm. And, yeah, just focus on that one.
Yep. Cool. Thanks, Ryan.
Cool. My pleasure.
Yeah. I think this is, I know that this has been true for I I haven’t worked with a lot of teams as a freelancer because a lot of the clients I work with are very small start ups at the moment.
But I have reached out to a lot of my old colleagues because I worked with a lot. It was, like, embedded in a lot of acquisition teams.
So I will reach out to a lot of my old colleagues because all of them have moved on to new companies Right.
And just ask them if they need help. And most of them have said yes. So that’s sort of been a a version of that.
Yep.
That has definitely been and, also, like, I already have that well established relationship because we work together, so they already know me. We’ve already done plenty of coffee chats, already have their phone number. So it’s easy to reach out and be like, oh, hey.
If you ever need any help, I’m here.
Cool. Has that been a source of referrals for you?
Yeah. For sure. Actually, I also got two clients from interviews where they didn’t hire me. And then I reached out to them, and I was like, you should hire me as if like, they were I was interviewing for a different position, and they didn’t give me the position because it was, like, more of a campaign manager or product marketing manager.
And it it was fine. Like, it also would not have been a good fit.
But then either they reached out to me or I reached out to them. And so now that’s true for, like, two or three different companies that they’re my long standing clients now.
Mhmm.
So I think that have definitely helped.
Yeah. That’s awesome.
When you say that, like, you don’t typically work with teams, like, who’s the one who’s typically, like, implementing your work either from, like, a design standpoint or a development standpoint or, yeah, any of those?
Well, I guess I guess I’m working Usually, I’m just working with one person. Usually, it’s like a very small marketing team, like two or three people because, let me tell you, marketing teams just do not have the budget for extra people.
So if they’re a series a, series b, like, they are barely scraping by.
They do not have any budget for media buying. And, like, ideally, I’d like to move into slightly larger companies, ideally outside of Israel where they have more money at the moment.
Mhmm.
But for them, it’s usually, like, one person. Or Mhmm. They have, like, onboarded me, and it’s a retainer, and I’m implementing.
Right. Right.
Myself.
I do have one new client that’s a little bit larger. Mhmm.
And the, like, campaign manager I think they call them, like, life cycle managers. Mhmm. This is more B2C oriented.
They’ll reach out to me, and I’ll just send it to them in a Google Doc.
Cool.
But, yeah, hopefully, as I start working with more companies that are more similar to the companies I used to work with when I was in house, then I can implement those same strategies, but it has been useful for me.
Awesome.
Nonetheless.
Got it. Cool. Yep.
Do you ever send a thank you gift as a token of you know, like, something as a token?
I have. Yeah. To clients you’re talking about specifically. Right?
To client or any I guess, anybody who refers you and lead, you know, results in business.
Yeah.
The short answer is, like, yes.
And it’s not, like, an automatic process where, like, you know, as soon as this referral is done, I contact my VA, and they have this specific list of gifts to order and send. Like, no. It’s, like, totally scrappy, like, as I feel inspired and as I feel, like, genuinely grateful.
And, like like, I’ve dropped the ball on that many times. Like, I’ll admit that. Right? Where it’s just like, you intend to, you want to, but it’s a crazy week, and then it’s two weeks later and you feel like it’s too late, but then you feel really awkward about it. And, like, like, I’ve been there.
But, yeah, like, gifting has definitely been part of it. I’ve definitely sent gifts to members of the team. Right?
Like project integrators, project managers in particular, because I noticed that they’re typically the ones who drive that decision to bring you on to the next project, the next project.
And they’re typically the ones that I’ve worked most closely with. Right? Not necessarily the CEO or the founder.
So, yeah, I’ve definitely enjoyed, like, surprising members of the team with gifts because they just don’t expect it, and it’s fun. It’s cool to gift.
So in that in that scenario, are you just sending a gift as a thank you after the project wraps? You’re like, it’s really great working with you. Here’s a little delightful surprise.
Yes. Totally. So there used to be, like, gifting apps that I used. I can’t remember all of them, but, like, they were really easy to, like, send and have them redeemed.
Mhmm.
Like, physical mail, like, I’ve sent that to you, but I live in Canada. Most of my clients are in the US, and it would take, like, a few extra weeks, which which is fine. Right? It gets it gets there when it gets there.
Like, when it comes to, like there’s a great book on gifting. I can’t remember what it was called, but, like, there are a few things that does that does anyone remember, like, a book on gifting?
No. That seems really weird to me.
Because it’s such a weird thing.
But, like I mean, like, give someone that as a gift just to, like, mess with them.
Right. A book on gifting? Oh gosh. I don’t know how I’d receive that. If I was gifted a book on gifting yeah. It’d probably be the end of the friendship. I’d be like, I don’t know what to do with this.
Yeah.
But what was it? Anyway, like, I think the point that I was trying to make was the gifts that I would send would just be, like, inspired by a conversation I had with the person. Right? Like, an interest I know they have.
Right? Or just something I know about them that I picked up from working together. So, like, those were the was the ones I’d, like, I felt most inspired to give versus, like I don’t know. Like, what’s a typical client gift?
Like yeah.
Like You’re not doing, like oh, sorry.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Another gift that, like, really landed well, like and, like, I just did it because I was inspired, like, spur at the moment, was like, I knew where my client lived. Right? And I just, like, booked them a massage, like, fifteen to a spa, like, twenty minutes from their house. Right? Like, stressful launch vibes and, like, you know, treat yourself after this. Like, I’ve treated my client and their local team to dinner. Like, that was a bit of an expensive gift, but it was, like, one of those, like, higher ticket launches I helped with.
So, yeah, things that, like, don’t just get tucked away but actually have a lot of meaning and a lot of value, in the relationship that also feel really good to gift are things that I would do. And I wish in retrospect that I was, like, more consistent with it and didn’t let my own, like, overwhelm and stress, like, get in the way of me actually doing it consistently and doing it well.
Yeah.
I don’t know if this will help, but I did had a really, really good find for a gift.
And this kind of only worked for me because all of my clients are local, and I was able to drop it off. But I found a local baker that makes macaroons, and I had her make macaroons in my colors, in my brand colors. Oh. And then they would, like, be boxed well, different size boxes, but there would be a few with logos. She, like, took a piece of fondant and printed my logo on it. Mhmm.
And they were, like, homemade.
It was, like, somebody working out of their house.
Everyone loved it. The macaroons were really delicious. They were local. They were fresh.
So I don’t know if, like, maybe you can find somebody near them, but it was a huge hit as opposed to, like, giving somebody a water bottle or a notebook that they’re never gonna use again.
Right. Right.
Okay. So this is I mean but it sounds like you don’t have a these are, like, thank you gifts to show appreciation after you’ve worked with them. You don’t have a systematized kickback system for people who refer.
I don’t.
No. No.
I did do that, like, a couple times.
Just, I feel like maybe it would depend on the situation. Like, I, yeah, I did that a couple times with, with clients who referred me Mhmm. Because I felt like they were taking a chance or, like, sticking their neck me, and I was really grateful for the new type of work. But, yeah, I don’t haven’t, made it a systematized thing, like a standard practice.
I was curious though if you did.
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like amazing if you can. Right? Like and we can only do so many things and systematize so many things.
Right? So, like, it’s one of those things where, like, looking back, I’m like, yeah. I wish I did that. Right?
And I didn’t. Right? For whatever reason. Right? Like, overwhelm, enough on my plate, stress, like, doing too many things, like, all at once. But, yeah, I think if you can find a way to do it, like, it’s definitely gonna help you more than not. So yeah.
Mhmm. Cool. Cool. Anything else on this topic, or should we dive into some copy?
Sweet. Seems like we’re going complete on that.
Naomi, did you wanna share something?
I also I have a question that I would love if you could or, Anantra, I’d love if you could help me out with.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
If nobody’s back. No. You can go. You can go.
Oh, I didn’t realize I was on mute. Sorry. I was trying to bring up the file, but go ahead if you wanna ask.
Okay. It’s hopefully a quickish one.
So I worked I worked on a launch in January.
It was a it was a good launch, and then we ever grow in-depth. So I set up a day on every funnel, and I thought it was converting really well. But it turns out, like, most of, like, ninety percent of the sales are actually coming just from ads to sales page.
Mhmm.
So, yeah, I’m, like, optimizing the webinar funnel, but I’m kind of like, is the best way to optimize it just to be like, let’s just run ads in sales page. It’s performing so much better. Like, the webinar funnels, I think, converting at, like, two percent. And then for the ads, it’s, like, twenty four dollars for a twelve hundred dollar sale.
But I, like, I don’t wanna do that because it kind of like, I don’t wanna, like, admit that my system isn’t working as well as just a sales page. And I’m confused as to, like, why that would be happening. Like, why would a sales page alone convert better than a webinar and emails?
Right.
Any thoughts going on?
What what’s the product, and what’s the price point?
It’s a bookkeeping course, and it’s twelve hundred dollars.
Bookkeeping course for twelve hundred dollars, and it’s converting better ad to sales page at twelve hundred dollars?
Yeah. Weird. Right?
Yeah. It’s a little surprising.
Like, how how like, is it close? Like, I missed some of those metrics you just shared.
Like No.
It’s not close. It’s like so, basically, I set up the webinar funnel, and then I wrote retargeting ads to with the to go to people that have clicked on the sales page. But the ads strategy is kind of messed up, and the retargeting ads just went to everyone. But then they were performing so well, like, twenty four dollars per sale sale. That the media buyer was like, let’s just leave them on. Yeah.
And, like, they’re absolutely sure, like, that’s all cold audience?
Or they’re I I they haven’t been through the webinar funnel.
Then they might not be completely cold. There is a mix of warm and cold, but they haven’t watched the webinar.
Mhmm. So what, like, what warm ish audiences might be mixed in there, I guess, is what I’m asking.
Like As just people that have bought other products, been on the site.
Like, they have a very loyal audience.
Yeah. I mean, it would make sense if, like, a warm audience is getting directed straight to the sales page versus a cold audience going through the webinar funnel. Right? So, like, that could have something to do with it if they bought something before, if they’re familiar with her.
Like, if they’re already bought on the idea of, like, her her process and the goal, right, like, of doing that thing, then, yeah, straight to sales page to that audience who’s already aware of her and, you know, even, like, product aware or solution aware. Like, that will convert more than the webinar funnel to cold. Right? So it’s like I think it’s less about the funnel and more that the webinar funnel was going all to cold, and you’re measuring that against these retargeting ads that were going out to a mix of warm and cold without knowing exactly what that ratio is.
Like, my guess would be there’s more warm within that ad set than cold. Like, that would be my guess. And it’s like pure like, I just don’t see a reality where those are all cold cold, like, having never heard of her before.
Yeah. That’s such a good point. I mean, I did see that some of them had watched the live webinar in January as well. So Yeah. Okay. So I should just focus on optimizing the webinar, like, under with reason to believe it’s for to a college audience.
And then I would say so.
Right? Like like, I know it’s a tough argument to make with, you know, the media buyer and even the client. Right? If they see, like, the return on the ad spend or that set that’s going straight to the sales page.
I think the argument I’d make, right, is, like, if we don’t know how much of that is already warm and maybe you can find that out. Right? Like, you def definitely, like, check-in on those buyers if they’re on the CRM and see their history. Yeah. Right? Like, to some degree. Like, I would really be curious how much of those are, like, cold, cold, and that was their very first interaction with the brand.
Yeah. But alt but, ultimately, like, at some point, you’re going to run out of a warm audience unless you have the funnel to convert cold. Right? So, I’d keep them both even if, like, one looks like it’s way over performing outperforming the other one right now. I think just a lack of clarity of how many of those are truly new leads.
Yeah. If if it’s not all new leads, you definitely need a funnel for cold leads to warm them up. So, yeah, I’d kinda, like, leave with that as the main argument.
But it is weird. Yeah. And, like yeah. I just don’t really see a reality where, like, with both audiences being equal, like, the cold to a twelve hundred dollar product would way outperform, like, the webinar funnel.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. It’s it’s annoying because I I saw, like, they made, like, eighty thousand, and I was like, yay. They won Evergreen.
And then I was like, what?
Mhmm. So disappointing.
But, yeah. No. That makes sense. I didn’t even think about whether it’d be warm or cold traffic. So, yeah, I’ll leave them both on and just keep optimizing and hope that the conversion rate goes up.
Yeah.
Cool. Cheers.
Okay. So this is the company that I interviewed for last year, and it was sort of like a campaign manager position. And I kept giving them good ideas for copy, And they kept asking me about how I would manage the campaign. So I think I’m getting that job.
But they came back to me recently, and hired me anyways. Cool. So the original the good version is I, I I didn’t see their entire brief, so I just wrote it the way I wanted to write it. Okay.
So I introduced I I included a lot of interesting sparkly details that I got from some of the articles on the current state of the insurance home insurance business.
Yep.
And the second one is the, set of emails I recently wrote, that’s more that it hears a little bit more closely to their, guidelines that I think is kinda boring, but I’m not really sure how to improve it. So thought I would Got it. Show both of those.
Perfect.
So it’s the same one. I just did a longer and a shorter version.
Got it. Alright.
So they’re comparing home insurance premiums or comparing home insurance rates with this tool.
Yep. Sweet. Has and this hasn’t run yet?
Or it They they said I didn’t actually see the brief that they sent.
It was, like, on the second page, and I missed it. So this Okay. Was never sent to anyone, but I included it just as, like, comparison. Like, this is what I would write if I had no restrictions. And then the second one is, like, more close to their brand guidelines, but I think it’s really dull and really boring, But they keep going to be shorter and tighter. But Right.
Got it.
I’m not really sure what to do. So you just see, this one is a little bit more story oriented.
It’s a little bit draws you a little bit more.
Yep. Exactly. I have reference points for these.
And just for the record, she did say she liked she did say that she liked it. Mhmm. This wasn’t according to their brand voice.
Mhmm. This one wasn’t according to their brand voice.
Yeah.
And, like, based primarily on, like, this section here?
Yeah. Their brand voice is a little bit more enthusiastic.
I got it. Yeah.
Short to the point. Mhmm. Look at the ones on the second tab that I wrote today.
Yep.
You’ll see that there’s hints of that of those kind of stories from the first one, but it’s a lot more watered down. It’s a lot more to the point. Right.
I don’t really feel like I’m doing anything.
I feel like I’m just, like, taking everything that they say and making sure that it’s readable and putting everything down on a page.
So these are people who, submitted for a quote on an online form and then can follow through with it, essentially?
They got a quote or two, and then they went through the flow, and then they churned.
And they’re trying to get them to talk to an agent Got it.
Cool.
To either go through it or to potentially add coverage for other insurance items.
Yep. Cool. I like the subject line because that really warrants us in that context.
Yeah. All three of these, actually.
If you like many.
Maybe you have this information, maybe you don’t. Like, what is the main driver or motivating factor for people submitting a quote? Is it, like, that they already have home insurance, but it’s up for renewal and got a price hike?
Is that correct?
So that’s what they sent me some news articles. Apparently, home insurance rates are skyrocketing all across the country, and there’s more and more claims. Some insurance companies have to raise their rates.
Right.
So I figured I would bring that piece of relevant news, to to the table. And Yeah. A lot of people feel like prices have gone up.
Yep.
So it can feel like every turn brings another price hike. I think, like, if you were to ground this in specificity, there might even be an opportunity to, like, in brackets, like, underneath it saying, like, you know, maybe you’re up for renewal and, you know, essentially, you know, your home insurance company reward your loyalty with a twenty percent plus hike. Right? Like, that is typically the reason I think like, I’m not an insurance industry expert, but, typically, it’s like, you know, you get kind of, like, the renewal notice. They raise your rate even though you didn’t, like, claim anything, and you’re like, bastards. I’m gonna get them by switching to someone else. So maybe you could capture some of that here or at least mirror that back.
That’s why I definitely don’t want to let a recent quote or address get lost in your inbox. Hippo has teamed up with forty plus trusted carriers. You got the perfect number of your company at a reasonable price.
So I mean, it’s like the languaging is fair.
Like, I almost, like, glaze over reasonable price. Like, it doesn’t feel it it feels like what an insurance company would say, and maybe, like, they have to say it that way. Right? But it’s like, how could that be kind of upgraded?
Reasonable? Like, what? Are people, like, are people looking for reasonable, or are they looking for fair, or are they looking for better?
Like I think there’s a lot of indignant at the fact that insurance prices are are skyrocketing, and this is especially true in California where I think a lot of differences.
And so I was trying to capture that sense of indigence.
Mhmm. Awesome.
I have a question. Do you mention forty plus trusted carriers to, point out the fact that that, they’re gonna get the best rate because you have so many to choose from.
Yeah. Yeah.
That was one of the requirements that they asked me to include.
So it’s it’s like comparing different rates, essentially. Mhmm. They have, like, a couple of different solutions that they offer.
Mhmm.
So one thing you may consider adding here is, like, a reasonable price without having to, you know, submit for dozens of quotes and getting overwhelmed in the process. Right? Because, like, if they’re churning, it’s and if they submitted a quote to this company, chances are they’ve been submitting quotes, and they’ve been getting retargeted, like or targeted on Facebook from, from, like, every other insurance company. That’s typically what happens when, like like, I I submitted a quote.
I, like, changed my car insurance, like, a few weeks ago. And, like, every other car insurance company, Facebook feed right now. Right? So, like, that could be a reason they’re turning, and you could just kind of, like, include that here without having to, you know, submit quotes to every company that hits your feed, right, or whatever.
So that could be an anti churn strategy or preempting that, or addressing the reason why they might be.
But yeah. Otherwise, that’s good.
This is Yeah.
These ones are all different.
Yep.
So the second one is they want they want them to add earthquake coverage or other coverage, but specifically earthquakes for California, and the third one is there are several different kinds. So the third one, I was able to include a little bit of a a story.
Okay.
That one, I thought, was probably the best even though that was a watered down version. Yeah. That one.
This one here. Yep.
Yeah. It was a little bit longer at first, but cut it down. Mhmm. Because I can like, that’s the other thing that I hear over and over and over again.
They always tell me, Naomi, this is too negative. This is this is not our brand language. We don’t wanna scare people. We don’t wanna get people down.
That’s not gonna make people convert. I’ve heard that at least a hundred thousand times. And so the kind of material that makes really good stories is the kind of copy that always get cut always gets cut for me.
Right.
Yeah. It’s it’s interesting. I don’t have the research to, like, really inform this. Right? But, like, is there is there is the customer’s, like, main driver here just, like, to get the best price and move on?
Right? Or is it features of the protection and really making sure that they’re protected and feel secure? Right? And, like, I don’t know which one of those weighs in more of the more inside the head of, like, your specific client.
Like, if it’s really just about, like, price, right, like, reasonable price amidst all these, like, skyrocketing things, then I agree. Right? Like, the story should be more about, like, feeling, like like, this is fair and reasonable and that their budget isn’t under attack, and now they still have enough income, right, to focus on the things they really wanna, like, focus on. Right?
Like, no one wants to pay for insurance. Right? And, like, I think just having that acknowledgment is helpful. Right?
Like, if they are primarily concerned about price versus all the details of protection. So I think, like, that’s a really important question for the client. Like, it’s, like, what’s the main driver? So, like, the types of protection, the level of protection, and feeling the trust in the protection, or is it best price and move on and forget about it?
Like, what is driving that buying decision?
I think for these second two emails, it’s that you may not get as much flood or earthquake insurance just to realize because those are not usually covered under specific under Yeah.
Home coverage plan.
Yep. Got it.
I don’t think you’re being too negative. Like, I think, like, you’re mentioning what it does, right, the features of the product, and that’s what they’re getting insurance for. So they the feedback on this one was too negative?
No. No.
I’m just saying that’s what I’ve been doing a thousand times.
Got it. Got it.
The things that I don’t see as negatives. So it has to be short. It has to be positive. It has to be enthusiastic, but I still wanna make it interesting. So Yep.
Yeah. Trying to look for ways to help it come through.
Yeah. Have they been, like, specific in terms of, like, what short means to them?
The last time I got a, like, a a template of what they had in their last email Mhmm.
And so that was helpful. But I would say that, like, this is probably the limit to the number of words. Like, a hundred and fifty words for the email would probably be pushing it.
Mhmm. Got it.
Like, I don’t wanna harp on, like, oh my gosh. What’s gonna happen if you don’t get all of this coverage?
There’s gonna be a flood that destroys your house, and Yeah.
We’ll be able to pay for your grandmother’s retirement home. And if you get sick, like you know? Mhmm.
Oh, totally. Yeah.
Like, you can go really far with this, and I don’t wanna Yeah.
No. I I I agree. Right? Like, those stories probably will just kinda repel more than yeah.
They’re difficult to read. Like, that’s the thing. Right? Like, no one even wants wants to, like, visualize those realities, or, like, the word pictures that, like, come to mind, like, when you read over it.
But, yeah, you’re talking about these things specifically. It protects you in your yeah. I mean, generally, like, I agree with that, like, general orientation, right, on the lighter side, on the shorter side, and more focused on, like, the immediate benefit that they’re doing this for, right, which is peace of mind or price. Right?
And, like, what that means and how that appears. Right? Like, feel like this is done, you’re covered, and you can just enjoy your life. Right?
So, yeah, like, that’s really the extent of it. I think, like, these are generally good. I think that there might be opportunity that I use I use the word might. It’s not a hard recommend. But, like, just languaging that mirrors back why they may have churned, right, and to essentially reflect that proximity to the solution, right, so that they don’t need to be in this, like, weeks long process of spending hours on the phone with other providers. I think that connects to your feature of, like, forty plus trusted carriers.
Is, like, your partner there so that they don’t need to have endless conversations, you know, price shopping. Right? You know, like, you can even have a subject line like price shopping question mark. Right? And an email that just focuses on, like, you’re already in touch with forty plus carriers. Right? And you’re gonna get them that best price and save them dozens of hours of just, like, nonstop calls.
So Okay.
Yeah. But generally, good stuff. Yeah.
I see you have a few different, like, call to action options as well. Has that been, like, tested or something that your client wants to test?
Well, it’s a it’s a different it’s a different action.
Right.
We wanted them to just get the quote.
That’s when we wanted them to actually talk to somebody because they already got the quote.
Got it.
Data flows.
Cool.
Alright. Thank you. This is actually Great. This is helpful.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Cool. Cool. Any final notes or questions before we wrap, or is everyone good for today?
Guess we’re good.
Cool. Thanks all. Have an awesome rest of the week.
Bye.
Bye.
Things I Wish I Knew Before Publishing My First Book
Things I Wish I Knew Before Publishing My First Book
Transcript
Beautiful. So five probably way too unfiltered things. I wish I knew before publishing my first book and that I’m actively, like, as in in this moment, self correcting with my second. So, obviously, Many of y’all have, yeah, been sharing, stating, committing to writing books in twenty twenty four or on the verge of committing to it.
Potentially on the verge because of unanswered questions and fears and concerns and anxieties and all these things around what the process may entail or may not entail.
So, yep, I wanna clear all that up, not just in this session, but beyond this session. So I am declaring myself available for questions on Slack, right, about, that process and obviously how I can assuage fears and steer you to the best of my ability, right, in the most streamlined, efficient, productive, and profitable path towards, getting your books out there. Because despite what I’m gonna share in this presentation, I am a huge advocate of writing your book, and you writing your book, not AI writing your book, you read in your book and all the amazing brilliant things that can come out of that. So having published twice in twenty twenty three, the person was May twenty twenty three. When it came out, and the most recent one, three weeks ago, about three weeks ago, maybe about a month ago.
The first one, hybrid slash traditional, I’m still ambiguous on where hybrid begins and more traditional ends.
I’m just like, yeah, you’re hybrid. Sure. I get it. So I still don’t really understand the difference.
And one self publishing, which I absolutely understand what that is. It’s me publishing my own thing with full control, full oversight of the metrics and all the things that go into it.
So, yeah, with that experience and a lot of experience over the last two years on that, definitely have some thoughts, warnings, and words of encouragement. So necessary disclaimers. This is all, of course, my personal experience, observation, things I’ve gained and gathered in dozens of con conversations with other authors while I was going through this process, and it’s, of course, limited by my own. Understandings, perceptions, conversations, and at conclusions I’ve drawn by them, drawing through them.
And I’m open. To other discussions perspectives experiences in all the nuance within it. So I really see this more of a mastermind style discussion, then a, this is what you must do and should do, although I will have some instances where I probably say, don’t do this. But, yeah, I’m open to it all, being masterminded and conversed because there’s certainly nuance within it.
So first, the necessary warning. Right? I think, like, this is the main takeaway I want everyone to have here because this is where I’ve done, like, the most ragey around the industry where I’ve heard the most, like, horror stories, stories of regret, stories of, like, overwhelm, even stories of, like, business bankruptcy of people just throwing ridiculous amounts of cash to try to get a best selling book with a bias that it would work, right, and that they’ll be James Clear by next weekend. Right? And, yeah, the publishing industry, whether you know, of course, there’s many people within it, right, and many people with varying degrees of ethics.
But overall, I found it to be quite predatory. And I know that’s a big harsh word. I’m not afraid to use it here. So what you may be offered, I was offered these things. I don’t know why I was offered these things. I don’t know how I got on the list of people who offer these things, but I got on the list of people who offer these things. And I had to run this gauntlet and stiff arm the fuck out of people offering these things.
But, yeah, there’s a price tag to all the things you may have seen out there. Right? People raving about being a New York times best seller, we probably all seen the social media posts, Instagram posts of someone you know, like taking a selfie, showing, like, their book on the list with a whole, caption, post around how it’s dream come true, right, how they bailed English class and were told they would never be a writer. And look at you, missus Elliot. I’m a best selling author right now.
You could buy that experience. You could buy that redemption story.
It’s literally available for sixty thousand dollars.
I was offered it.
I had no intention of spending sixty thousand dollars. I did not need to assuage that childhood wound.
To show my mom and my dad that I’m a best selling author, although, yeah, that inner child was present. I just had to have chat with chat GPT tell them, told space for that part, and then I saved myself sixty thousand dollars.
So that has a cost. Wanna be, on a times square billboard. Probably also seen that post of people pointing to the billboard. Look, my book in New York Times Square, can’t believe it.
Never thought this would happen in a million years. But you kinda could have predicted it because you could buy it for fifteen thousand dollars. I was offered this. Once again, I rejected it mostly because I hate New York City and wouldn’t have flown there to take the selfie.
Anyway, so, yeah, that, on the lesser scale, You have paid reviews, you know, companies that will review your book, right, for anywhere between, like, three hundred dollars to a thousand dollars per review I’ve seen, which is kinda crazy.
One review doesn’t move the needle, and it paying for reviews, and all you’re doing is paying for reviews, you’re not even gonna get enough reviews to move the needle. So, yeah. There’s that.
Paid podcast appearances. I was offered a ton of these, said no, mostly because I just didn’t feel like having conversations about my book by the time it was published, and we can talk more about that later in this presentation.
One thousand dollars for paid Instagram shutouts or some accounts out there with, you know, like, three hundred thousand followers.
Bookgram, book a gram. I think that’s what it’s called on a hashtag.
Yeah, you could pay anywhere between a thousand dollars for a shout out to three thousand dollars for a package of them.
I was offered that multiple times. And then, yeah, coaching companies that will charge fifteen thousand dollars or more to help you write and launch it.
Mixed results. I’ve definitely seen and observed some people get decent results out of it.
And mostly what I’ve seen is people ending up with a book, that they’ve spent a lot of time and a lot of energy and a lot of money, even just producing, with the hope and expectation that once it’s out there, it’ll just be out there. Right? And then they’ve kinda lost steam and lost budget when it comes to actually promoting and moving into things. So that is a really common story that I have seen.
So these opportunities, thrive on the fallacy that your book just needs an initial spark or push.
And then will cash fire go viral on its own. Right? So that’s what these opportunities tend to pitch in my observation. This is absolutely false, right, and it kinda prays on people’s biases, believing that their book is destined for mass success.
Cause why wouldn’t you believe that? You absolutely should believe that and hold that belief, but don’t let that belief be weaponized against you by these opportunities that won’t be part of getting you there. So in my experience, all that as follows, a momentary spike of purchases will indeed get you on a best seller list for one to two days, whether it’s an Amazon best selling category, or in your times or a USA today, All that is doable, all that is true, you can get on that list for one to two days, maybe a week, but it will do nothing beyond it. Right?
And this is not opinion. This is verifiable with certain tools. Helium is one tool. You can look into kind of expensive use more for, like, Amazon, ecomm, and Kindle Rockett, more specific for, books, but you can literally check.
I’ve done this work.
Where you see someone, you know, posting the New York Times bestseller. You know, I made it.
I’ll look at those books right now, but six months later, and they’re moving maybe, like, I don’t know, like, four to ten, copies per month. Right? So that spike doesn’t sustain. It drops way back down. You’re not acquiring real fans, real qualified leads out of it.
On those, like, offers to get you onto New York Times best seller list. Usually, what happens is you have to discount your book to ninety nine cents, right, or a dollar.
And then it gets blasted out to these massive lists of, like, a million or more people right, who essentially signed up and raised their hand for wanting cheap and discounted or free books.
So you’ll get that spike. These aren’t likely to be buyers who will take you up on your buyer ticket offers or your services.
Yeah. You’ll just get, the screenshot, right, and you’ll get the social post, if you want it. So that’s essentially what, you’re getting out of that.
What you really need is real readers who are qualified or your higher ticket program services offers and workshops. So I’ve witnessed or overheard Oh, far too many stories of people who burnt through twenty, fifty all the way up to a hundred thousand dollars only to end up with a book that a year later moves, like, barely any units.
Right? And no one talks about this. As why would they? It’s a little embarrassing. It’s a little cringe.
It’s, a tough thing to admit elements of regret in the process that one was so invested financially, emotionally, and energetically. And so it doesn’t get talked about a lot, which means, Yeah. It just keeps on happening. So that is my warning.
Can we agree that warning has been heated? I’m gonna stop my share because I really need to make sure that this warning has been heated. Have I gone cool? We’re not gonna pop for that.
I will show you amazing.
Cool. Thank you for the heads up. Really interesting insight there.
Yeah. Why? On that note?
Because a lot of the hybrids, you know, are are and I’ve even looked at a few of assessing their services and even their services of what they provide are not the same.
Mhmm.
And it’s so confusing around, like, what what the minimum starting is.
Like, there’s no Mhmm.
Initial. This is what you get, and and it’s not clear. So it’s it is it feels like an up sell all along the way.
And, yeah, I just would love your perspective on it. Like, if you do want support, and I know you’re probably gonna go into this, It feels like you have to ask a lot of an industry you don’t know anything about and be somewhat knowledgeable. So Yeah.
What if that if that raises anything for you?
Yeah. The offers of the hybrid publishers are so ambiguous.
The typical response I’ve heard right in my own, like, process of going through some of them and then hearing other stories is that, like, you kinda get threaded along. Right? And, like, you’re coming at it with the bias and the belief that this is gonna blow up, and you’ll put in the money you need to put into it. And once it’s out there, it’ll be out there and it’ll just catch fire because that is what you should be believing because you’re writing a book. Right? Why would you write it unless you really believe it would take off?
So, yeah, it’s really easy to get strung along. I’ve heard stories, right, where, like, you know, the hybrid publisher, if you will, right, will they’ll design your cover, right, they’ll assign an ISBN, they’ll do the interior layout.
They’ll get it distributed, right, on different platforms.
And when you haven’t done this before, all that sounds so valuable because it sounds so confusing and overwhelming, right, and it was for me. I remember I went with the publisher the first time around because, like, I don’t know the first thing about turning this Google doc into a good looking book. Right?
And the truth is is, like, the upcharge that these Harvard, they’re making money on that. They have margin what they’re charging you on that. I’ve seen literal examples.
There’s a hybrid publisher I was looking at, like, two and a half years ago for my first book. And, you know, they I think it was, like, a ten thousand dollars starting package right where they’re, like, well, design your ebook. We’ll design your print book. We’ll assign it the ISBN.
We’ll give you your initial keywords for descriptions in Amazon SEO.
I went on fiverr. Right? And one dude on fiverr had as his testimonial on case studies books from that publisher. Right? So they’re just outsourcing it to fiber.
And this guy was charging, like, five hundred bucks for all of that. This publishing is charging ten grand, and maybe they have, like, a few other things they were doing on top of it.
But I’m like, no. Like, they are making money off off They’re not making money off of your book blowing up and becoming atomic habits. Right? They’re making money on getting authors, selling them on the dream of becoming best selling authors.
And it’s a very easy out for a publisher if you don’t become a best seller. Right? It’s like you didn’t promote it enough. Your book wasn’t good enough. We did what we were supposed to do, but the stuff they’re supposed to do, really little and really inexpensive.
So, yeah, like, all those things that intimidated me the first time around and had me just say, yes, oh, someone else to do it. Second time around, I’m like, this will this will feel so much more self empowering to just learn to do it myself. Right? And Mhmm. I hate learning to DIY. Like, I’m so quick to hire on so many things.
But, yeah, honestly, like, It may not be perfect, but, like, this is my new one. I designed this cover on Canva, right, and I like it better than my first cover.
The interior layout, like, not, like, I’d say, like, eight on ten, like, good enough.
Fifty five bucks from a legit dude in the UK, Clear Communication. He did it over Christmas y, which I didn’t even expect to. He designed the spine. He designed the digital version, as well as the paperback for fifty five bucks, right, like total, amount per hour, per total on a twenty four hour turnaround. That was the thing I had the most freak out I’m like, I would hire a self I would hire a hybrid publisher and take that five grand, take that ten grand, because I just don’t even wanna care about these things.
Start a DM conversation with a guy on fiber who’s done it, like, thousands of times. Right? And Yeah. Like, that was just my own, like, comfort edge to feel like I could do that on my own.
But, yeah, so glad I did. So, yeah.
Hybrid publishers know what you’re getting. Like, I think if they have legit distribution and reach and can promote your book, not just produce it and leave you to promote it, then there could be merit there. If all they’re doing is producing it, probably not worth it because you’re just gonna end up with something that you’re going to have to promote anyway.
Other things I’ve noticed in my own publishing process, y’all are writers. Right? You know your material better than anyone else. You know how to write.
Like, I don’t think you need to pay for an editor. Like, that might be lost from this. I don’t think you need to do it. I regret doing so, and I love my editor.
He was great. Like, nothing wrong with him. I don’t feel like it improved my book for the money I invested as well as the delay in going through revisions. That’s the other thing I really hated about working with a publisher.
Is you’re going through revisions, you’re feeling like it may not necessarily be making it better. Right? Because as an author, you’re typically gonna be really happy with that draft that you’ve polished. Right? Maybe not your first draft, but your your final draft. Right?
You inherently probably don’t want anyone to touch it at that point. Right?
And to go through a year of revisions without feeling like it’s really making it better, and the tedium of reviewing it each and every time, that was, like, painful for me. Right? And I think by the time the book got published, I didn’t even wanna look at it anymore because I was so exhausted by my own message and my own material, that the last thing I wanted to do was conjure up excitement about this thing that I had become tired of, if that makes sense.
That got ranty. Right? But the short version of it is if all they’re promising is book production, probably not worth it unless you’re really, really, really, really, really, really, like, I’m not confident, overwhelmed, and feel like they have, like, the right reputation, but, like, speak to other authors who’ve worked with them if you can, get their honest feedback, like, people might say, yeah, it was fine. It was good.
Right? And, like, push back. Right? Like, when you do it again, that’s a really good question.
And if they delay on the would you do it again, you get, like, an, because that would be my response. If someone asked me today, like, you work with that publisher again, I’d hesitate. Right? I’d try to salvage the good things about it just to defend my ego of having made that decision, but ultimately, you know, like, I’d self publish in a second.
So yeah.
Is that is that helpful? Cool.
Alright.
I think I think the fiverr thing is an area I’ve already gone to to check out and, like, such an interesting thing that you saw that thread of those books being, you know, Because because here’s one of the things I don’t know what other people are thinking about. I’ve actually thought about testing an ebook, rather like a smaller booklet, like a mini book rather than the whole process just to learn it in a way that is lower risk.
Yep.
To the bigger book. So I’d love people’s thoughts on that as as a way to be like, hey, let’s just do this.
Let’s and if it’s a manual or a workbook or I and I’d love your perspective on it.
Mhmm.
You know, it it’s it feels like why not? Because the the whole, and I’ll let people know that I’m having gotten some materials from some companies. They say that you won’t get published till, like, twelve to eighteen months after your manuscript. After your manuscript. So we’re talking, like, two years.
Yep. That’s part of my rant. Yeah. And your your material better be evergreen. Right?
Like, That data do you mean.
Right? Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
Cool. Well, I think the warning’s been heated. So I’m gonna jump back in and get really really practical data. Sweet. So, observation number one, your publisher probably He would probably will do a whole lot to promote it. This is my personal experience and also observed in conversations with, yeah, well over a dozen business and personal development authors, across a range, right, hybrid publishers, traditional publishers, some of the bigger publishing houses that you may be familiar with as well.
It’s likely gonna fall mostly on you to market your book, which I think is a good thing and an empowering thing.
A publisher can be helpful, absolutely in distributing across all digital book plat forms, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Indigo, all the kind of, like, smaller ones as well. And maybe, Keart, maybe getting on some shelves, which very, very, very, very, very big maybe.
If they’re saying they can do that and will do that, I would push back and ask them what percentage of books they published have are currently on shelves. Right? Like, put them in that position to qualify that because that is typically one of the bigger selling points they try to make. And, actives are only so much shelf space and so many books.
So, yeah, I would push back on that. Self publishing on Amazon KDP or super, super fast and simple. And roughly eighty percent of the US book market. So if you’re looking for, like, a literal eighty twenty, Yeah.
So publishing on Amazon KDP is that literal eighty twenty for the US book market, at least. You retain higher royalties. It’s about sixty percent. On paperback and Kindle.
And if you are doing paid advertising, you have more control over cash flow and reporting with in my view is the most most important point. So, when I was playing around with Amazon ads before, my book came out. So as of it’s kinda like going through that, like, uploading process and the interior design process and all that, I really wanted to, like, acquire that skill. And I remember, like, why not? I’ll just, you know, run ads use my last book as a test, as a test case.
And, it was really exciting and also really sad because the ads started working, like, right away. Like, I sold two copies of the book, via ads, essentially on day one at a, quote, unquote profit thing is I don’t know if I was I don’t know how much I was actually making or losing on it because Amazon takes their cut, the publisher takes their cut, And worst of all, right, with Amazon, you know exactly what you’re getting as your royalty, and you’re getting it within sixty days. Right? A publisher, it has to go through two tiers of reporting. Right? I think Amazon pays the publisher in sixty days, then the publisher pays you maybe sixty days later, so you might be on a hundred and twenty day cash flow delay.
And, of course, they’re double dipping on the, on their cuts. Right? So your margin is lower.
Your delay of getting the money back to reinvest is much longer, and makes it pretty much impossible in my view to cover advertising on a book that is going through a publisher. And this is, like, the most painful thing for me in retrospect. Right? Cause I realized, like, okay. I know how to run Amazon ads. I’m getting results, like, totally not optimized, like, totally one zero one strategy.
I wish I could do this all the time, and I can’t because, yeah, the margins aren’t there, and the delay on cash flow isn’t there. Or is there. So, yeah, that kinda sucked. So that is a really important reason to consider self publishing or at least, you know, if you are working with a hybrid publisher, just get really clear on, royalty structure, and if you’re getting paid directly your Amazon sales or if it’s going through those two layers.
So number two, your book probably won’t go viral or gain organic traction on its own.
It might. Right? And I just wanna set, like, fair expectations, a rule of thumb, is that a could take twelve to eighteen months and over five hundred reviews for a book to start really taking on a life of its own.
You’ll likely need to work for those initial two three thousand orders that could yield those five hundred or more ratings and reviews and incentivize ratings and reviews, meaning your topic has to be pretty evergreen. Right? If it is going to have its best year in year two and year three and year four, the topics you’re discussing and the strategies and the tactics, that you’re talking about probably can’t go out of style. You need to be pretty sure that content that end of material you’re covering is gonna have longevity.
So this is a really important point, especially in the marketing or the copy or just the business sphere in general. Like, you’d really wanna be talking principle based or tactics that you are certain aren’t going to be disappearing in the next few years.
You can, of course, support it with short term spikes, right, getting on podcasts, shout out, launches, either internal launches or affiliate launches, but where I would focus my energy, right, is the everyday sales engine that moves copies every single day. Right?
Your first five hundred to a thousand sales will could be your hardest and costliest Amazon is a social proof driven platform. It’s really, really, really difficult for someone to buy a book that only has one rating or kind of like the one next to the five stars. Right? They’re like, do I wanna take that risk or do I wanna go to this book that, you know, has been showing up on my, recommended products forever, right, and has over five hundred ratings and reviews. So that’s just kind of how it is. That’s just the buying behavior there, social proof driven. So it gets easier.
As you get more reviews and your ratings increase the amount of ratings you have. So your cost to acquire a reader will decrease over time. So there needs to be some degree of a threshold at least at the beginning in my view to absorb a certain cost to acquire a reader, which brings up another important point. Don’t over identify with being an author, like, this pug, like, I really wanted to be this pug when I was growing up. Like, I wanted the knitted wool scarf or best into glasses, I want to feel like a writer writer.
Yeah. So, like, you know, when it comes to your book, especially the book that you’re writing as part of your business, you get to decide, right, you wanna be an author author or a business owner who happens to be an author the former will invest a lot of energy bandwidth and attention in writing and selling their book. The latter knows precisely where the book fits within their sales funnel, most likely top of funnel knows its purpose, which would be lead acquisition and nurture someone who literally has a physical copy of your thing is reading it. It’s interacting with it. It’s seeing it on their copy table or in their office.
All that is amazing. You’re literally in their home, and knows how much they’re willing to spend to acquire a reader. Now this is and band stuff, we could do a whole workshop on this.
It’s relatively simple math to figure out.
But, yeah, you want to know or have a hypothesis of what a reader would be worth to your business.
And therefore, how much you are willing to spend to acquire a reader. These are really important metrics to know, no one’s really talking about it, even kind of the bigger book writing coaching businesses, I brought this up at a conference where one of them was kind of promoting their thing and, like, no, this just isn’t within that consciousness or that conversation. So yes, you get to be a business owner and know where it fits within your funnel.
And the latter also has a clear ascension path from leader to client and is excited, right, eager to spend money to acquire a reader with full competence of their economics.
Next, you’ll need to launch and think long term. If you can only choose one, think long term. Right? So my first book had bit of a launch, right, I had a list. I had small humble list, maybe three thousand people between my list and my partner lists.
The new book hasn’t had any list. Right? I literally just came up with the pen name two or three months ago. Right? No listen to space, no reputation, no authority, no nothing.
If you’re gonna choose one, do the long term, launch if you can, but put the appropriate level of energy into your launch. Right? And this goes back to, like, do you wanna be an author or a business owner who has a book? So you can You can, but should only hit up your list or social on your book so often.
Right? You don’t wanna, like, burn out your list per a five dollar royalty. Right? There are other things you need to be discussing as a business owner or other conversations you need to be having.
Other things you need to be marketing. Right? So give it the appropriate level of attention, lump style, a lot of publishers and book coaching companies, right, will really push you, right, obviously, because, you know, it’s better for them to push it every day. Right? Like, be the thing that you promote and talk about all the time on all your podcasts, all your, blog posts, all your emails to your list, and that’s a decision you get to make. Right? Do you really wanna, like, use that well earned attention, on promoting your book all the time, right, or give it its appropriate space?
What I recommend, right, an initial launch with bonuses, right, early reader early reader bonuses or pre order bonuses, of five to seven emails like max max max, max, with an upsell or a booking application on the thank you page. Right? Like, make this more than just your book. Make the bonuses, other authority building things you’ve done, whether it’s a presentation, a workshop, a master class, how that thank you page be, you know, a short video, right, that says, like, amazing.
Right? If you need help with this, this, and this right now, then is a conversation we can have. Right? So you have the authority about the book, and you also have the, application for people who are ready to have that conversation at.
So Yes. Make it fit and work within your current business structure.
Don’t over engineer for a successful book launch.
Hit up your socials, but once again, your business owner with a book. Right? Don’t make it all about that.
And understand, right, the initial surge can move you up to number one, any releases in your category, which is great. It’s fun. Like, I posted a screenshot in Slack yesterday, right, that I was number two in new releases on Amazon for a pretty cool category of business, business motivation, I think. Right?
Like, right next to noah Kagan. I’m like, that’s a win. That’s fun, and it’s just that. It’s just fun.
Right? It doesn’t mean much more than that.
The ranking via any short term spike won’t sustain. Right? It’ll be gone tomorrow. Right? Like, I could take this screenshot of that same category today, and I think it’s like number eight or number nine.
Right? So it’s like, a short term win, like, it’s fun, it’s exciting, and it’s not what you should be optimizing for. So the ranking via that spike won’t sustain no evidence.
I’ve done a lot of research on this. No evidence that it will actually help you sell more organically because your audience probably isn’t navigating to the best selling books of a certain Amazon category looking through it and deciding what they wanna read next off of that. Is probably not how they’re browsing or making buying decisions.
So, get cozy, spending to acquire a reader or a lead my favorite platform for that is Amazon ads.
It’s cost per click, meaning you don’t pay for impressions, which is really, really cool if you’re, like, MU author or trying to build your authority in space, you don’t pay for those tens of thousands of impressions you’re getting for free alongside the other authority figures and thought leaders in your space that you want to be associated with. That it’s really, really cool.
Yeah. So that’s a really cool aspect of Amazon ads. And you get to target, right, keyword phrases that your problem or solution aware audience would be typing or looking for. Right?
So, in my case, right, that looks like, a keyword I think I’m running that is doing really well for me is, like, best books on money mindset, best books on money mindset twenty twenty four. Right? So these are the phrases people are typing. You find the search volume for these.
You use a tool for it. I use, Kindle Rocket.
I think there are some other higher paid ones like Helium, where you see how much search volume is being, generated for those keywords, but use keywords, right, that your target audience, someone who would be qualified for your higher ticket services or courses, would be using and then you get to form a hypothesis where you get to engineer, you get to engineer the reality where a book reader is the warmest possible lead in your business just based on the words they were typing or the other books they were looking at before find your books. So that’s what’s really cool about Amazon ads.
And yeah, I love the fact that you get tens of thousands of impressions for free. Right? And I think it does take I couldn’t find a stat on this. I’ve been looking for it. I’m like, how many impressions does it take of your name of your boat before someone?
Makes that buying decision. Right? So, yeah, I think, like, I read somewhere that it could be seven, it could be ten.
I think on Amazon right now, it’s probably, you know, at least fifteen to twenty. If you’re book just showing up on the feed, showing up as sponsored books, like, before someone’s like, oh, this is really showing up a lot for me right now. Like, oh, this person’s name is showing up a lot for me right now. Let me click through and actually, I know a bit more about this person.
So yeah, Amazon had big fan of it. Really easy to get started with it. Like, I got started with it, I think, like, learning it in an afternoon off of Udemy course or some YouTube videos to get masterful at it, obviously, it requires some optimization into next work, still in the process of that. So I can’t really report, but your cheat code and all that is being willing to spend and lose money on acquiring a reader.
So the vast majority of folks that are running, book ads on Amazon, are publishers or authors who need to be profitable on their book sale. Right? So I’d estimate that ninety five percent of people who are running book ads aren’t thinking lifetime value or backend. Right?
They are they are authors and they are publishers. Right?
So this is a really important point. Like, your mindset going in time zone ads is you can be bold, right, in your bidding strategy.
You can have a certain threshold of being willing to spend money to acquire a reader. You don’t need to be profitable on your book.
And of course, the confidence in this comes through, once you actually look at the metrics of your whole funnel, right, like we could talk about that. I don’t know if we’ll have time today, of what, like, a book funnel looks like, but you need to be able to know what a book reader is worth within sixty days or ninety days. Right? And therefore, know how much you’re willing to spend on, acquiring a reader.
So where I’m at with this little experiment? So this was my first book, seven initiatory fires of modern manhood, really mouthful like, a big mouthful. A lot of words to say. Like, I think this is why I didn’t do podcasts because I didn’t wanna have to keep saying that word out loud.
But it was cool. Right? Like, I don’t have regrets about this process. I definitely don’t have regrets about writing it. So that two years to write it, amazing, fulfilling, self revealing. I really wrote it to coach myself through a lot of the things that I was experiencing, the part that sucked a year and a half to publish it, between the publisher’s timeline.
Yeah, and obviously when you write something that is kind of in the self development, spirituality realm, like, the things you feel and think about. Right? Three years later, differ a little bit. Right?
And I didn’t really feel incredible about, hardening ideas that were so real and raw three years ago. And now I’m like, I’ve kind of evolved beyond some of those ideas. A lot of them, I still feel so strongly about and others. I’m like, yeah, I don’t know.
My thinking and feeling about this has evolved a little bit. So, yeah, that delay didn’t really work for me. So by the time I was at, I just wasn’t as hyped about talking about it. I got hyped about other people reading it and experiencing it and having conversations about it.
There are definitely some cool experiences.
I think, like, I got tagged on a post from, Soleai, a hip hop artist who I think it’s married to Atlanta Mooreette. Yeah. That was it. I’m like, that’s amazing.
Canadian, you know, fresh when I I was like, fourteen years old, amazing. It’s in their living room now. Maybe. I don’t know.
I just made that up. The part that it’s in their living room. We have no evidence of that. But definitely some cool wins out of that, so I don’t regret that.
But, yeah, all in all, I think I paid five thousand dollars on that deal initially, right, to get with that publisher. And I honestly can’t remember what I was paying five thousand dollars for.
I was just like, thinking long term. I’m like, this book is gonna sell hundreds of thousands of copies. It’s five thousand dollars, no bank. Whatever. Let’s just get it done.
Another two and a half to three grand maybe. Book editors and formatters, once again, amazing people love them.
But I don’t necessarily know that it made anything better.
I despised their initial cover designs. I ended up pretty much designing my own on Canva and giving it to them and saying you know, improve on this or do this, but better. And they just pretty much did that. So that kinda sucked.
Apparently sold over four hundred copies, but unclear reporting, and to be honest, like, I just haven’t seen a royalty check yet. And I don’t understand their reporting. Haven’t really had the time, the energy or the desire to go into the forensics of trying to understand it. Which is frustrating, and I feel a little handcuffed in this one.
Right? Cause I know that I can advertise it well. If I use my unpaid media and I use my own copywriting skills, but I just don’t really have the capacity or the capability to put paid dollars behind something that is on a literally, like, a four to six month delay to get the cash flow back on that sale Mhmm. With some yeah, with pretty much all margin taken out between those two layers, Amazon and the publisher.
So I’m handcuffed. Right? I have skills to promote it and market it now, and I just can’t justify doing it. So, yeah, that kinda sucks.
Had to survive that gauntlet of being pitched. All these promotional services that’ll be shared at the beginning.
And I likely made my ROI in indirect ways. So when, so I do have a paid men’s group that I run every Tuesday night to co facilitate. We had a higher ticket program that we ran over the summer on, certifying people to become MEM’s coach facilitators, which is awesome.
The book helped indirectly. Right. So when leads just weren’t ready for that, I was able to share the book, they would buy it. They would get comfortable with me based on kind of reading the ideas, the authority based on, you know, just having the book, and some of those did turn into members of the group, as well as, part ticket certification clients.
But, yeah, indirect. Right? So overall, I don’t regret writing the book. I love the process of writing that book. I love that it’s out there. I love that it’s making an impact.
I do regret.
The method I used to publish it and the delays and the timelines that felt in retrospect highly unnecessary and now have me kind of handcuffing how much I can actually do to, promote it in ways that, Yeah. I just can’t track the ROI so easily or recoup the investment on paid ads so easily.
Book two, shadow money, sixty days to write. Jim idea inspired on, like, work I was doing in that men’s group. So, yeah, there’s some more indirect ROI, a thousand words a day. Really easy to commit to. I think, like, that was usually a coffee shop visit, sixty to ninety minutes, usually. So very easy to commit to on a schedule.
This part blew my mind taking five days to publish on Amazon KDP, fifty five dollars for the interior design, made my uncover in Canvas. So spent fifty five dollars to produce this, for both the Kindle and the paperback, created a mid tier program to support read or acquisition cost. So that’s something I could talk about maybe later. What time is it? You’ve got ten minutes.
So, yeah, created a mid tier program to, offset the cost of advertising so that I could be willing to spend money to acquire readers, offer to lead magnet literally on page one, which brings readers into that mid tier funnel.
Learned Amazon ads one zero one in an afternoon. No big launches to any lists or socials, because, yep, it’s a pen name. It’s a person who didn’t exist, three months ago. So a twenty day result, four hundred and fifty to five or, yeah, four hundred and fifty dollars in Amazon ad spend. Once again, totally not optimized. I’m not trying to break even on it. I’m just letting Amazon do its thing.
There is probably a lot I could do to, optimize my ad spent and my OSS on my Amazon ad spent.
But here’s yeah, the nuts and bolts of it. So seventy three units sold, most importantly real and qualified readers. So three hundred and fifty dollars in royalties, so not quite break even on the Amazon ad spend, which I am more than happy about, I think, like, seventy three readers at a hundred dollars loss.
I don’t know, I’m paying, like, a dollar fifty per reader right now, which I’m really happy about.
One unit of the mid tier sold, for a hundred and eighty dollars. So possible there are you beyond breakeven.
One high ticket coaching package came out of that. Or two thousand dollars just as a test run. So profitable there, reader to list conversion. So this is something I’m tracking. So the funnel that readers are moving into is just for book readers. It’s not being muddied by any other channel.
Reader to list conversion approximately fifty percent.
So half of the people who are actually opening the book and reading the book are getting on the list.
List size is a hundred and fifteen, that includes other people who didn’t buy the book. So that’s why that number is a little higher than it would be, numbers wise.
But it’s cool. Right? Real readers when real readers buy it, opportunities open. So I had one, One fellow in Spain, right, who has a decent sized list wants to translate all the materials into Spanish, just really resonating with everything I’m sharing.
Really cool little win there, invitation to a major podcast in February. That just wouldn’t have happened, right, kind of spark magically just by having this done. So not mind blowing crazy results and wins, and I’m already far more profitable than I was with my last book, and this is really just twenty days in with so much room to optimize so much room to grow. My goal is to move at least for the first three months, a hundred books a month, right, a hundred real readers per month, with the hypothesis that the cost to acquire a reader will go down month by month as it gets more social proof, gets more traction, get some more opportunities to speak on podcasts.
And, yeah, so grinding for those hundred readers initially and letting it kinda snowball from there as I layer in more optimized strategies. So that is What I got? Let me get off this screen, stop share, catch a breath.
Oh, is that too ranty, guys? Like, I don’t know. It wasn’t too great. Alright?
No. No.
No. I’m not super informative. Okay. Cool.
I wanted to see you lose your shit. Like, where was the real world thing? It’s way too chill.
That was way too chill it.
Yeah. I mean, I was, like, I mean, me being close to losing my shit still looks really common collected, but, the conference I went to, right, like, which was sponsored by one of the, one of the bigger kind of, like, self publishing coaching companies. And they’re cool. Right?
And, like, so much of it just felt off. Right? Signing the dream of, like, you need a book. It’s gonna be your legacy.
Right? Not your legacy if you’re selling two or three copies per month. Right? So it’s like, yeah, a lot gets invested that doesn’t get recouped, and there’s so much, like, shame and regret around it that just people don’t have those conversations.
And I think the path to doing it well and doing it sustainably, is there. I just don’t see a lot of people doing it. So it felt really empowering to, like, create that path and create that hypothesis for myself on this one. And, yeah, so far, so good. It doesn’t generate you know, copywriting service money yet, and it’s pretty cool to see what it’s able to do, like, twenty days in. So Yeah.
That’s interesting. You say that I went to the last fifty books conference and it was in Vegas in November.
And I really resonated with that decide if you’re an author or a business owner happens to be an author because my experience at that conference while it is predominantly fiction authors and and small publishers a bit.
It was really obvious to me that these folks were business owners first despite the fact that their predominant income was books. They still would be the first ones to say, oh, okay. Well, my series, this series of mine, the it’s the readership isn’t there. It’s not doing what it should.
Boom. Done. I’m not writing anymore. That’s not, you know, that’s not ROI positive anymore. So they it was just really obvious to me that while they were writers and artists and creatives and all those things.
They were very much business minded and it was cool being in a room of so many people with that.
I think we’re creatives or, you know, kind of portrayed as these.
Well, we don’t do numbers and we don’t do And I was like, nope. All these people pay attention to numbers and they hear.
So, That’s awesome.
Yeah. It was it I mean, it’s different. I realized in non fiction versus fiction. There’s just a drastic difference, but I still was really impressed by the business mindedness of the group.
So Yeah.
That’s cool. And and there are some, like, really, like, like, I was throwing a lot of shade at, like, some aspects of the industry. There are some, like, really good and affordable, like, companies out there that are empowering authors to know the number side of it. Right?
Yeah. Kendall Kendall Printer comes to mind. They’re really good in terms of, like, what I’ve seen and learned from and, like, really affordable stuff.
But, yeah, there’s just, like, the the most predatory aspects I think that I’ve witnessed and seen a lot of regret and remorse of are, like, the promotional specs, like, to get on best seller list ones. Mhmm.
And it’s just like yeah. Kinda like sad and cringe to throw so much money at that, and you are getting over promise. You are getting over promise that you’ll get on that list, and it’ll kinda sustain. That’ll be that spike you need, because everyone feels like everyone’s confident in their book, and they feel like it just needs that initial push, right, and the rest will take over.
And, yeah, when you’d, like, look at the raw numbers, like, when you actually look, and I I went through this exercise because I didn’t want my own bias to cloud it. Like, I so there there’s one company I I won’t name names, right, that, like, offers a service. You see the testimonials, right, of those authors on that page.
Look at their books now, how much volume are they actually moving? Where is it actually ranked on Amazon now, right, a year later?
And the numbers are the numbers. Right?
Like Mhmm.
So I think that also I I sometimes wonder because if I didn’t make it clear, the conference is it’s for indie author.
They’re like small little kind of I’m not even sure I call a publisher because that feels not portrayed accurately, but it’s indie authors.
And I kind of feel like as an indie author, it also forces you to pay attention to the numbers because who else is gonna do for you, you know.
Right.
And so that was the I don’t know. I I just thought indie author becoming an indie author first to me like to monique you mentioned, should I just put something up? I think yes. The faster you can put out a book and publish it and get it on a platform where you can see any number.
It doesn’t matter. Zero, whatever. I think that’s the better way to go. That’s what Abby and I have been talking a lot about with my book because I feel like the seasonal sales psychology book feels bigger and I want more to it.
And I feel like that’s keeping me from let’s get something out there.
Let’s, you know, let’s do something simpler, get a book out there and learn fast.
Her. That’s so I’m totally with you on that. If you were doing that, that’s what I’m I’m thinking I’m gonna shift to that as well.
So Yeah.
I kinda yeah. I kinda feel like there’s the mini version, right, where I’m I’m would love your thoughts on this ride if you’ve seen people do this. Like, it’s a lead magnet and and or you give a discount code to the Amazon. And I don’t I don’t know the version of that funnel, but the idea is If you publish it and it’s on Amazon, it brings a whole bunch of credibility than a lead magnet download book that someone gets sent that no one really reads because it was free off your website. And so I kind of feel the same way. Like, why not publish it? Why not make it a book somebody can buy, get printed?
And have it as soft copy. I’ve heard that, I would love your stats. Like, what percentage of the sales are actually soft like print printed books rather than downloaded books. I think it’s like ninety percent usually as a ratio.
Yeah. I could give you the exact numbers right now.
Right. Do you have the do you have is it how do you drill down your numbers on that?
Give me one sec.
Alright. So Right now I’m, just on my KDP dashboard, suite.
So, yeah. I mean, I’ll show you what the reporting looks like there.
Sweet. So, yeah, this is this month. It shows you how many people many pages have been read on Kindle Unlimited if you make it available for Kindle Unlimited.
So this doesn’t account for, like, people who everyone who bought, like, the candle version. This is just for those who access it versus kindle unlimited.
There we go. So paperbacks, seventy percent, about thirty pis thirty percent ebook, shows country breakdown.
Yeah, I think the ebook had a higher percentage because I didn’t know what I was doing at the beginning, and I’ve made the ebook available for, like, a week earlier than the paperback. The paperback’s only been out since January seven not even twenty days yet.
Whereas the ebook was available before. So, yeah, I think that would account for it. But, yeah, probably closer to a seventy five percent twenty five percent ratio.
Mhmm.
Otherwise.
Yep. And you can you can obviously optimize for that. Right? So I think, like, I would want to optimize for more paperbacks than kindles, right, just because I think having something physical in their home that they’re seeing every day, is amazing for, like, the nurture and just you being top of mind.
Right? So I would absolutely optimize for pay for back. The simplest way to do that, right, is just make the price gap such that, like, you know, I don’t know, like, thirteen bucks per kindle and seventeen bucks for a paperback. It’s like, yeah, why would I order the kindle?
Unless, I really, really like reading on it any reader.
So Mhmm.
Mhmm.
Yep.
And so how does they pay on, like, a print on direct or purchase? How does that work?
Yeah. So with, KDP Publishing, in particular, you don’t pay anything upfront. Right? So you upload your book. Right?
You upload, like, the dimensions of it, right, all the files, and then it’ll give you, right, the cost to produce at the raw raw costs. So for this one, it’s like four or five bucks.
But you’re not paying for any copies because it’s print on demand. So you don’t need to, like, print you don’t need to pay for an initial run or anything like that.
It’s just, like, comes off of your margin. Right? So if you sell it for seventeen bucks, the first five bucks is used to pay for production, and then you have your royalty on the remaining twelve bucks. So yeah.
Yep. But no no inventory, obviously, which is amazing. If you are speaking at a conference, Oh, gosh. This is so much easier with Amazon than it is with a publisher.
Right? So a publisher, I have this conversation once because they’re the US. I’m based in Canada. I’m like, if I wanted to if I’m doing a workshop in the US, can you just ship it to them, right, directly?
Right? Ship it there. They’re like, no. We gotta ship it to you first in Canada.
Right? So crazy duties with a minimum order quantity, then I gotta ship to the US. Right? At that point, it’s not even worth it.
I’m paying, like, thirty bucks per unit to just get give away free books.
Amazon, right, like, so easy to order order, author copies at a discount at cost. Like, you get it at cost. Right? And, yeah, you could have it shipped wherever you wanna ship it. So a lot easier.
That in itself is a huge insight. Wow.
Yep.
Yep. And once again, I don’t know if every publisher is like that. That was just the conversation I had with, the one I used.
He is interesting when Joe write books in kinda similar and I our stats for the paperback to Kindle version. Now we started with Kindle so that probably impacted it as well. But Mhmm. We’re like opposite yours. Paperback versus Kindle is Really? Oh, yeah. Is completely up similar way more people taking ebooks but if you think about it like Joe’s initial books way back when, you know, ten years ago that classics kind of.
Those were ebook only unless you printed it off yourself or something. You know, so I wonder if there’s also that She kind of set in place a I do ebooks. I write ebooks digital.
Yeah.
You know, but anyway, I just thought that was funny because you’re his Maybe.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think, obviously, it’s just like a hypothesis as I just really see a paperback sale being more valuable than a Kindle because I forget about all the books that I have on Kindle, because I don’t see them. Right? My iPad has essentially been hijacked by my son to watch, like, yeah, YouTube videos and frankly the turtle. So, like, I don’t even see my kindle anymore.
But, yeah.
Cool. Any other questions?
Yeah. I have a couple. Oh, after you you, Abby, I have a couple I’ve written out.
Hey. Sure. You can You are first. Here you go.
Well, I have one pen name. I’m so curious about your pen name and and what made you decide to do pen name.
Yeah. I mean, all my, yeah, all my books are essentially pen names now.
But Yeah. It was, like, really clear to me to not, like, muddle brands.
Right?
Initially, like, yeah, I’ll be totally honest. It’s, like, the first book I release, I’m, like, no one knows me in the space for this thing, and it feels weird, and it feels awkward.
And I kinda wanna, like, hide a little bit behind it. So, yeah, totally admitting that.
Like, the first book there were elements of not wanting to be seen and wanting to hide, got through that shit, and then it just kinda like made sense. It’s a different brand in a different industry with a different voice and different socials. So let it have its own name, practically speaking, right, like, if you Google Ryan Schwartz, like, you’re gonna get, like, the copywriting stuff, and then you’re gonna get literally, hundreds of other running shorts just because it’s a super common name. So I really wanted to have names that I could rank number one for on the books. That felt really important right off the bat.
As well as getting And what do you mean?
What do you mean by that when you say rank for names? Oh, based on on Exactly.
So if you, if you Google Hendrix Black, for example, like my book will be first page, all first page will be me, essentially, which felt important and not been a good enough reason to run with that.
And, yeah, so I think, like, that’s really the main reason for pen names is the authorship is just in different spaces and different brands, and I wanna rank on the first page or those names.
Cool. And it’s cool to be different people. I don’t know. Like, I know. It’s just fun. Like, live out the names that your parents didn’t have the courage to call you. Like, Why wouldn’t I do that?
Yeah. My dad was gonna call me Siddhartha.
As in like the Buddha?
Yeah.
Could you imagine how embarrassing that lady? Like, the her the Herman Hasssey novel, like you read that and got inspired or I don’t know.
He was just, yeah, happy in the nineties.
Oh, yeah. That would’ve been kinda cool. Like, do you regret not being considered that?
No. No. At all. I think I would have gone by Sid. Like, I feel like Sid’s a cool name, but Samantha.
Good book. Yeah. That could be a pen name once you start writing your own spirituality books.
So, you know, yeah.
It’s a good segue into my question. So I’ve I’ve a mindset question. I’m a total newbie at mindset, but I’m I’ve been reading it about it for making money. And I’m like, okay.
So, like, you wanna, like, attract, like, wealth abundance, like, I’m trying to get into that. But then when I think about my book, like, you know, I’m excited about it, but I’m also kinda like, yeah, like, you know, probably five people will buy who follow me on LinkedIn. Like, I’m totally like, yeah, like, no one’s gonna buy it. Like, do you have any, like, advice on what kind of mindset you should have?
Cause I don’t wanna set high expectations, but I’m also, like, my expectations are so low that that can’t be good for, like, actually attracting, you know, for actually thinking I’m gonna sell any.
Yeah. I think, like, there are definitely mindset and energetic components of that. Like, I would check-in, like, how do you feel if it was selling hundreds of copies? Like, this part of you freak out about that. You’d be like, oh, they’re reading my stuff, they’re judging. They’re, you know, like, tune into the parts of you that may not want it to take off as well that may be kind of like halting and sabotaging the process.
I think that that is valuable work to do.
I get really excited about your book and how it fits within your business. Like, that gets really exciting. Right? Like, it just ties.
And so brilliantly with what you already do, anyone who’s read your work whether it’s your copy or client’s copy, whatever. It’s like, shit, she can write. Like, I wanna read that. So, some, I mean, on the mindset stuff of, like, will it sell?
Right? I think I think it’s, like, the wrong question. The right question would be like, do I want it to sell and what will I do to insure itself? Cause there are pathways to sell books and move volume.
Right? Like, I didn’t have an audience for a made up name called the Money Shopping, and it’s sold seventy five copies this month. Right?
And real readers who are in my inbox right now is, like, loving on the work. Right? And So, yeah, like, your readers are out there.
It’s actually quite easy and simple.
To get your book in front of them using Amazon ads and to write keywords and getting it, yeah, getting it displayed as a sponsored product on those because I do leading. Right? Like, I gotta look at my stats again. Right?
But, like, you you are a bad ass at and money. Right? Like, that was one of the books where I bid really aggressively to get mine as a sponsored book next to that. Mhmm.
Right? Because even if people aren’t clicking through, I’m getting that impression on that association hundreds of times per day. Right? And it might take six months of people seeing my next to that one.
Before they’re like, oh, maybe I should check out this one as well.
But, yeah, that’s something you could do. Right? So, like, you can bid really aggressively to have your book next to Jeffwalker’s launch, right, and Amy Porterfield’s two weeks notice. Mhmm. And, you know, those evergreen trees are gonna be to it, like, for months.
And then people will be like, who’s exactly? Right?
To Sedarta the marketer. Right? Like, that’s that’s your pen name. And, yeah, I think, like, you can engineer that with in a really predictable way. That’s not something you have to think. Will this happen? Like, you can create that just with a bold bidding strategy on your cost per click.
Like, it will be there next to Laura Belgrave. It will be there next Sandy Porterfield. It will be there next to Jeff Walker or Ryan Lavac or Whoever, if you want your book to be next to. Right?
Mhmm.
You will rank for how do I launch an online course, right, if you want to rank for that keyword so, yeah, there are ways you can pretty much guarantee your book will move volume.
It’s obviously harder to guarantee that your book will blow the fuck up and turn into atomic habits. Right?
Which, like, I looked at the volume. I think he’s making or the book is making on amazon dot com, like, over eight eight hundred grand a month right now. Like, which is insane.
It’s wild. It’s absolute madness. And that is the best selling book on Amazon. Like, So it is what it is.
But the thing is is when the book is just a component of your business, you don’t need it to sell half a million copies, right, to do really, really, really well. Like, because you have your mid ticket course already done, that complements it.
Like, it’s as simple as, like, you create your book on page two.
Like, you have the lead magnet, right, that gets them into the Evergreen funnel. And you have the course directly if they’re interested in, like, taking to the next level. So, like, I give that opportunity right away so that they could skip the funnel.
But you will know, like, if you duplicate that funnel, for book readers, you will know what a book reader is worth within sixty days, like, really easily.
And then you could reinvest, and it becomes your lead gen strategy for your course and for your services. And you can compare that with, like, is this more profitable? Is this bringing better leads than Facebook ads or worse leads.
So, yeah, you can control the outcome to a certain degree of moving volume, you can’t control while it blow up. Yeah. But you can definitely control where it appears.
And yeah, to a certain degree, you could definitely control, like, volume, especially with your skills. Right? And, like, yeah, writing good descriptions, good cover. Good cover is probably one of the more important things well.
Yeah. There’s, yeah, there’s a lot there. Like, I didn’t realize you could control, like, where your book appeared next to.
One follow-up question, just like, around mindset if that’s okay. Like, I mean, this is a really, really basic mindset stuff, but I think it’s partly, like, I just don’t wanna be disappointed. Like, in business, I’m kind of fine to make moves if I fail, but I just feel like with a bug because it’s something I’ve wanted since I was like, about four years old. It’s just like feels like I like, it would kind of break my heart if I put it out there and people hated it or didn’t buy it. Like, you have any, like, advice around that, or does that did you feel like that?
Yeah. So, like, when I really tune into the honesty of, like, the emotions there, or, like, they’re mixed on the first one. Like, I’m disappointed. It’s not selling more. I feel angry to some degree that, like, I want to control its movement, but feel a little handcuffed out the economics.
So that’s, like, frustration that I compartmentalize.
Right? Again, I’ll admit that truth.
Yeah. Look, like, it’s natural to really desire it to do well. Right? Like, why would you do something without that desire?
I think, like, there are elements of that risk and that vulnerability, right, where, like, it may meet your expectations. It may exceed your expectations.
It may not exceed those expectations. And I think you could definitely yeah, there’s definitely, like, work to be done on, like, preempting that disappointment and that fear and that sadness. Right? Like, that is mindset work, that is a personal growth work, that is, like, the emotional clearing work, and that is available to you.
And, right, like, I think.
To to a certain degree, yeah, and we could keep we could keep having those conversations, like, in the mastermind and on Slack because I think, like, when we’re all taking this, like, next leap, Like, there are definitely vulnerable components of that. Right? And we do wanna be assured success on whatever we do to make it feel safe. Because otherwise, like, it it sucks, and it stings to not meet your own expectations for something you’re doing, especially the thing that feel really important to you from, like, dear to your heart.
But yeah, I think, like, there’s definitely work that can be done effectively to, like, clear those emotions, clear those fears, and then get really resourceful and determined around optimizing for success. And I do feel like there’s more.
I I think that there’s a lot we could do, to create the probability of success. Not necessarily guarantee it, but in the book world, if you have a really good book on a topic that people, like, are actively looking to learn about, Right?
Yeah, you can really kind of, like, feel good about the probability of success there. Right? And just making sure you’re doing the eighty twenty to really, like, drive for that.
But, like, for you, for example, like, if you really wanna feel like you can ensure that success. Right? Like, you can have the outline of the book. You can have the cover design, right, and, like, go to five or ten, like, past clients, colleagues, friends, right, in the space with that audience, like, how does this sound, right, is this something you would, you know, help share with your list, right, like, down the line? You can almost, like, preempt your fear by getting kind of like a verbal confirmation from, you know, the donors of over ten thousand people. Like, what do you share this? Right?
To assuage that beer.
Yeah.
Mhmm. Thank you.
I I have a question for you, Ryan, about I guess, like, where would you go if you want? And I think Jessica, you were saying this. Like, if if we’re going down this journey, We don’t wanna get caught up in the industry of what you experienced. Mhmm. Who who are those people that’s still so new, I find even like where to even start an outline.
Like Google, I’ve I’ve started writing my book, and I’m like, oh my god, I get so lost in that Google doc where I can’t remember where things are, and I’m like brain dumping. And so the process of actually organizing the thinking in a way that’s not great creating work after, like, this continuum of work. That that is so I I feel like for me, the tools to do it right and efficiently of, like, either thumbnails or or index cards or just that would be super helpful because I think a part of the dream of going to somebody else, they could teach you all that is what the hope is to shortcut.
And if there isn’t that an absolute need and the confidence is just in like you said, the doing the words and keeping it organized, in testing with people and maybe having some accountability partners in this group. And then, oh, by the way, when you’re ready, let’s, like, hey, Roy can be the person that says, you know, send to this person, check-in with this person. These are the people that will keep it, initially on the inexpensive side to publish. That would be so helpful for me as like, hey, just take these five steps. Do this?
Yep.
Systemize it like this. And these are the people.
Yeah.
So what I’m hearing is I just the initial part getting started with, like, the outline and the structure is kind of a bit of an obstacle right now. Mhmm.
Yeah. I have a lot of stuff being written out, but it’s the keeping it organized.
Yeah.
So you have it written out. Like, are you confident in the structure element, and that’s just about, like, keeping the pieces organized within it?
Or Yeah.
I have a I have a book outline.
Okay.
But it’s sort of like I like the chapters to almost the index cards. Like, I know that maybe and I’ve been thinking Trello is probably the most visual way of doing it, but maybe there’s a better way of doing it.
Yeah. I mean, trello’s good. I like I mean, you could have columns for each chapter, right, and cards for each components within it.
I’ve used actual, like, cue cards in the past, index cards, sorry, like, literally putting them on a board, right, or on my floor, right, because I have, like, messy floors.
So use what works for you, like, on the last so so when I wrote screenplays, I was a lot more structured because there are more moving pieces. The last two books, right, the structuring to flow are so clear. Right? And, like, what I found was, like, the more I tried to organize, the more overwhelmed and stressed I got, where I felt relaxed and relief is when Google Docs started populating, right, and I had a table of contents and detractors. And each chapter had a very similar structure, right, and how it was presented.
But I felt a lot of my anxiety was disappearing as the thing was actually getting done. Right? So I feel like just even committing to that writing cadence of, like, however many words per day, you feel confident you can accomplish And knowing that in, like, six weeks, you’ll have a certain output that is self organizing. Right? Like, that might feel really good.
Yeah.
Does that does that help? And, I mean, I wish I was, like, more organized myself. I organize as I write, and I know that’s not always, like, the most ideal thing. But, I feel I feel most confident when I see the thing actually getting flushed out.
That’s just how I work. Yeah.
So I I have a thought, and I just I don’t know what you think about this. So page two that was recommended, they’re they’re I mean, I’ve looked at their services and they start at, I think, thirty five thousand dollars.
For, for who?
Page two. Yeah.
Okay.
I haven’t I haven’t gone so far yet as I hope to meet with them at some point, like, just to learn about theirs. But I don’t know if that’s the real cost, but that’s what they sort of shared.
Mhmm.
I was I was actually really blown away by it. I thought the whole you know, hybrid publishing was like maybe fifteen thousand max.
Mhmm. So one thing you can do pretty easily. Right? Like, this is a twenty minute exercise, right, is like, they have all these books on their homepage, you can definitely see how much volume they’re doing.
Yeah, some of these books I definitely recognize. Right? So, like, they’re doing well, like these books, but are those the outliers? And did they succeed despite or because of Right? Like, I think that’s an important part.
Let me see what their services are.
So our team of editors designers project managers and sales and marketing professionals take close attention to detail while giving you full control over every decision.
Yeah. I mean, I’d be really kind of like, H two books are sold around the world both online and in brick and mortar stores, we have a team of a hundred plus sales reps through our distributors.
Post twenty five agents selling translations on our behalf.
Yeah, honestly, like, at that price point, thirty thousand dollars or even ten thousand dollars, like, This is where this is why, like, when I published my second book, I’m like, I don’t care how much I’m losing on Amazon ads right away I’ve saved over ten thousand dollars. I’m just getting it here. Right?
Yeah, I get a lot more excited about saving that money and turning it into, like, real ROI on a real measurable funnel than a, kind of a ambiguous thing they’re doing. Right? We have sales reps that are actively doing this and that, but they’ll never guarantee an output or an outcome out of that. Which has you fill in the gaps of the best possible scenario because, of course, you want the best case scenario.
Right? So it’s like, I I went through a similar process. Right? Like, we have sales reps.
We have connections to all these stores. And, of course, I’m defaulting to the optimistic side of, okay, these sales reps are gonna get my book, and I’m gonna be at an airport flying here, and I’m gonna see it there, and I’m gonna have that moment taking a selfie into airport, being like, my book is here. Right? And, like, this is where the brain and the heart naturally wants to go.
You just don’t have control over that, and they won’t give you a guarantee on that because that’s not how they work, and not every one of their books ends up in a store. Right? And they may or may not give you an accurate percentage of, you know, how many of their clients actually get there.
Yeah, that’s a bit of a judgment call, but, like, my intuition is if it’s a five figure investment, and you can likely create a similar product, the book itself, for you know, under a thousand dollars. Right? And that’s if you hire a really good book cover designer.
I get really excited about having nine thousand dollars of marketing and ad budget on a measurable funnel. That’s just me.
Yeah. I totally agree with you. I mean, you’ve convinced me that while I was already trying to make sense of it in a in a very complicated way. Like, I actually put information in a chat, GBT, and my tell me what these services have in common. And it was like, I don’t know. Like, it was very so if, like, if if it’s complicated at the beginning and then you go down at the contractual agreements stage, like, it gets even more complicated and confusing.
And it just felt like it was dampening the whole you know, opportunity. And then you add in the after manuscript fifteen to eighteen months or something, you know, very long.
Yeah. To me, that’s like the deal breaker. Right? It’s like fifteen to eighteen months is a long time in, like, business terms. Right?
I know.
You have your, like, workshop already done. Right? Like, the workshop you wanna be presenting?
Yeah.
I just got, like, intuitive hit, like, create the book version of that that slides into the, like, we’ll do the workshop together. Right?
Well, and that’s kinda what I was thinking. If I like you said, it’s like the manual that you sell that, hey, you can buy and go and do it your on your own or what if we all did it together? Yeah.
That that is sort of the mini version idea of, like, So and then and then that sort of builds and you get the experience off of just that and you get to make it something that you can have authority on.
You can, like you said, get it out out and out the door, maybe three or four months.
Yep. And it’s part of your product suite. Right? Your fractional work well as your workshop work, it connects with both those opportunities.
Right?
Yeah. And it guarantees that any reader of that is likely going to be the right audience, right, for those higher ticket packages, which is not what you get, right, even bookstore distribution ninety nine point nine percent of people who will work on a Barnes and Noble and, like, browse, like, probably not your ideal market.
Right?
Yep. Yeah.
Yeah. Like, and once again, there are parts of us that really want that experience. Right? I really, really wish I could go to the local bookstore in Montreal that I used to spend so much time in and pull my book off the shelf and be like, look, I did it.
Right? And, like, the price we pay just for that validation is, like, crazy. Right? And marketers definitely prey on that.
But it’s not necessary. Like, you can rank for all the things that you need to rank for on Amazon.
And you can build a funnel that really tracks the KPIs and all the metrics you need to know, like, how much is a reader worth for you? And how much are you willing to spend to acquire a reader and compare the lead quality of that reader with your other lead gen sources.
That’s awesome. Would you be willing to share the people that you worked with on your your book?
Yeah. Totally. I mean, I think there’s only, like, one person because I designed the cover.
I would invest in getting the cover done. Right? Like, second time around. I think this is just part of my own, like, ragey reclamation of, like, like, the publishing industry.
And, yeah, like, playing around with Canvas because it makes me feel more talented than I actually am.
But, yeah, let me just kinda, like, drop you that link here so that I don’t forget because he was awesome. That’s gonna be awesome.
So there are a lot of I mean, it’s fiber. Right? So, obviously, there’s a lot of people who aren’t so great, even with a lot of five star reviews, because I don’t know how they get all those five star reviews, but they do.
But this one guy was really good.
So this name is Damien and let me drop it in chat.
Yep. So he’s in the UK, super professional, once again, like, as far as, like, interior layout and back cover and spine and all that, probably, like, a seven and a half to eight on ten, right, but for fifty five bucks, Canadian, I think.
So Yeah.
That’s crazy. That’s so cool. Night and day differences between your first and your second one and like I know it must have driven you crazy and you mentioned it because, you know, you’re You know, you you love math. You’re in direct response.
So you can see those metrics usually. And you’re like, what’s going on? What can I optimize? What can I optimize?
What’s going on? And then the second one, like, You mentioned it’s nothing wild, but man, I disagree. That’s, like, crazy to see not only when you can break even what your ROI is. You know your LTV going into it.
You know your KPIs, just gonna have to ask anything to see that, like, in the cost, the those margins are wild to say the least. Like, what?
Right. Yeah.
Yep.
Right. That’s exactly it. When you’re familiar with the direct response, like, you just can’t tolerate things that you can’t track. What’s going on? I know this works.
Exactly.
But I’d say, like, that would be the number one reason I would never work with a publisher or hybrid publisher is the double layer of reporting as well as the delay in the cash coming back in to reinvest. Right? I think that that is, like, unacceptable for a marketer. Right? To accept, like, four to five months delay on, like, you sell a book and the revenue from that book comes in.
Yeah. That part ain’t cool. So Yeah.
And this has been, like, so valuable information, Ryan. I can’t even tell you, like, probably saved me time, energy, a struggle. Right? Because I think truth is when you meet with people in this industry, you likely wanna keep some sort of, I don’t know, connection with them, or you feel like I don’t wanna string a law. Like, there’s a whole bunch of emotions I think that really can go down this road that in a way that maybe is unique in its industry.
That it plays on legacy.
And I think you’ve just been like, I I’m grateful that you put this together.
Thanks a lot.
That they prey on the dream. They’re like, we know that they want it, you know.
Yeah. It’s it’s the bias, right, because you just naturally see yourself. Selling millions of copies, and it is possible. Right? But, yeah, I think, like, Yeah. I think I think the self empowered path, right, of just having control over your own marketing and the speed of which it gets out, right, is so vital.
And I’ve seen that case play out a lot, right, the eighteen month delay. And then, like, as an author, as a creator, you sometimes moved on, right, from those ideas and the strategies.
And then when you have to get on podcasts to promote the thing, you wanna talk about something else at that point, right, or your strategies or thinking or best practices have evolved, it’s just, like, weird. So I think, like, the speed of thought moves a lot faster than the speed of traditional publishing. And to me, that’s like a really big, challenge, but Yeah.
So, Rai, one last thing I lead a women’s financial mastery series for about twenty women where we actually go through and so interesting that you have this side brand of yours because I do too. And this is my big struggle I’ve had, and it’s in the same area, which is crazy.
Where we un unlock and untangle all the money messages and issues that have held back women owned particularly their wealth rather than, you know, just pay equity being in its gap of you know, eighty two cents on the dollar. Women in US, single women retire with thirty two cents on the dollar to to the males, save wealth. So it’s kinda like breaking down all that. And I’ve struggled with this too. Like, you seem to have, which I didn’t know about two areas that you’re really kinda like drawn to.
And that has been one for me. And I I love that you’ve done this in a way that makes me helps also helps me realize, like, I felt like I was abandoning that passion of what I love doing in supporting, the conversation around, literacy information and in the and I think there’s a struggle I’ve had around being the one thing that I’ve developed, which I’m excited about, but I’m It’s how to be too excited about two things, and I know that’s not the purpose of a one thing, but it is also great to hear that you have to lives in some cases.
Yeah.
Yeah, it’s such an important point. Right? And in my personal experience, right, like, I’ve had a lot of difficulty abandoning really vital parts of myself. Right? And work that just wants to be created. Like, I have abandoned those for periods of time, and I’ve never felt great about it.
I think, like, yeah, working in sprints has definitely enabled that. Right? Like, I wrote that book with a thousand words a day over fifty five days, published it, right, like, around a holiday season when things were a little bit more quiet on the other biz other side of the business. And now things are kind of, I wouldn’t say passive, right, but not a huge time allocation right now.
I’d say, like, my one recommendation would be, like, you know, choosing the one thing within the one thing. Right? Like, my copywriting work and my client work there and my teaching and training work is pretty streamlined and focused and disciplined.
Same thing with the other books that I create and the companies around them. Like, my men’s book filters really clearly into a Tuesday night men’s circle, right, that I co facilitate.
Like, there’s not a lot of variability around that.
So yeah, it’s like being really disciplined within those lanes, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Totally. I’d love to know your men circle. I I do have a lot of, guy friends who are talking about the need to connect with, like, genuine guys who really wanna, you know, be be present in the way that they didn’t learn, you know, as kids growing up through their There’s there’s, you know, observational parenting styles, but I’d love to know if you’re if you’re sharing that side of what you do.
Yeah. Of course. I’ll be happy to share that. We’ll be reopening, space for that soon.
So, yeah, I’ll give you a ping. Cool. But yeah. I mean, I find it really personally important, right, to make sure that the things that are vital, important to you, have lanes of expression, right, otherwise, just kinda feels shitty and brings a bit of remorse and regret at some point in my view.
So Yep.
Happy to keep the combo going as y’all go deeper into your work, but, probably appreciate the conversation.
Nolan, are you working on a book as well? I didn’t catch that initially.
I am kind of, like, yes. Definitely. It’s in the line. Like, I’m reading where I’m right now about my things.
I’m still trying a hundred percent dialer, and it’s all about, like, behavioral marketing. And I’m reading this book, called. Actually, it’s over there, but it’s called, using the science in behavioral marketing. It’s super fascinating.
It’s, like, exactly the kind of stuff I wanna wanna write about and it’s just, like, every word that I read is just like resonating with me fully. So I’m trying to absorb all the behavioral marketing content I can find out there so I can kinda see what’s going out there, what’s working, and what’s not working.
Mhmm. Awesome.
And there’s actually not like a ton on it.
So it’s it’s kinda fascinating.
Yeah.
Absolutely. Well, I’m here for all all the questions. I’ll go deeper on those paths. And, yeah, thank you for entertaining my cathartic rant, and, hopefully, there’s some useful tidbits within that.
So a ton. A ton.
Cool. Yeah. Thank you, Ryan.
Alright. That’s it. Have a good one. Take care. Yeah.
Please have a good one. Take it easy.