So as you all, rightfully know, this workshop is all about setting your rate and knowing your worth.

So quick sort of temperature check, in the room, when it does come to conversations and decisions around pricing and setting rates, like how are you feeling? Is the general vibe that you’re worried you’re undercharging? Do you sometimes worry that you’re overcharging? Is it just that you spend a lot of time caught up, in these questions in your head as you go about your work and your business? You just give me like a one sentence insight for each of you in terms of sort of where you’re at?

I can give you a one word in this both.

Okay. Awesome. I love that. Very relatable.

Seriously, I’m in a house, so I’m not doing a whole lot of pricing.

Cool. Are you looking to go out on your own anytime soon, Randall? Is this part of plan?

Or So, yeah.

There I mean, just maybe this is TMI, but I when I signed up for this, it looked like I might be going back on contracts. With the same company I’m working for. Gotcha. In that moment for now has passed.

Mhmm.

But I’m thinking that just what I see with AI and whatnot, maybe it might be a good idea for me to, yeah, pick the thing and run out as far ahead of the blob of the seeping blob of AI, So that’s, yes, definitely giving consideration to, you know, doing a bit more networking, the next, you know, six to ten months. And then, yeah, giving real, I guess, consideration to going back out of my own again, probably about a year from now.

Awesome. Cool. Well, this could all be stuff that you tuck in your back pocket for if or when that time comes.

Absolutely.

And Julian, what about you? Where are you at when it comes to thinking about pricing?

I would say I’m probably more on the side of undercharging.

Was that under or over? Sorry. Under. Under. Okay. Yep. Awesome. Alright. Well, let’s start here, just with what we can expect to dive into today.

So I’m sure that all of you here have probably heard the advice when it comes to pricing that good pricing is all about ROI and or it’s about charging what you’re worth so today I really wanna challenge both of those statements because I think while there is, like, a little nugget of truth in both of those, pricing is far more nuanced, than either of these statements actually allows for. So the more we can move away from these sort of blanket all or nothing statements, I think the easier pricing actually becomes.

We’re also going to hopefully uncover some of the internal narratives that might be getting in the way of you charging the rate that you want to or the rates that you feel comfortable doing, and also, lastly, a fix for the fact that no matter how expert you are or how expert you become, you can never guarantee your copy’s performance one hundred percent, which of course can be one of those things that does make pricing challenging, particularly from a mindset point of view.

Now Abby, shared some really, generous beautiful insights into her challenges with pricing inside of the Slack group. And one of them was this, my secret wish would be for someone to review my end to end service and copy, and then give me a number. Congratulations, your work is worth this many dollars. And I was just wondering, does that wish resonate with anyone in here?

Yeah. I mean, that that’s certainly be awesome if it was that great porta book.

Alright.

This looks like about, you know, five hundred bucks an good stuff and go ahead and go out and get it, you know.

Yep. And Randall, I think I saw your mouth moving, but you’re on mute. Sorry.

Oh, I was, like, yeah. And my my machine’s breathing a little heavy, so I actually missed a bit what Nolan said.

Yeah, I don’t know if my statement would have that many x’s at the end. Monday maybe, but, yeah.

I love that. Yep. Cool. And thumbs up from Julian. Yeah. Awesome. I feel like it is such a normal desire to have because, of course, it is such a great idea to be able to outsource those things that are really uncomfortable for us, and to have someone else word or valuation to stand behind, when you are quoting a price for a project, and I think there’s a lot less mindset in talking about pricing if you’re working inside of an agency or another business, than when you’re actually creating your own prices for yourself as a service provider, So just wanted to put that out there to help normalize this, and then deep start to dig into this a little bit more.

So the pricing is about more than ROI, and ROI is about more than money.

So one of the objections I always get, when I’m working with coaching clients inside my own programs, is that because you write launch copy and for you, you know, it’s so easy to draw a really direct line of ROI between your work and the money made for that business, which is true. It is in launches. You know, you have so many data points, and you can, you know, quite easily, get a pretty solid idea of your impact on that business’ revenue from that project.

But of course, ROI is about a lot more than money. So let’s dive into these two points to start with.

So factors that influence pricing include everything from your target market and of course there is a ceiling for a certain type of golf with a certain type of client, and I always like to make this point because I feel that sometimes there can just be that overwhelming advice that comes out you to just continually raise your rates, raise your rates, raise your rates, but the fact is that there is a point at which you will max out, rates if you’re doing the same kind of project with the same kind of client. So at that point, something needs to shift and change, whether that’s the service you’re offering or the client who you’re servicing.

Supply and demand, obviously, also influences pricing, and I think this, folds in nicely to everything you’re doing inside in terms of really, getting known and building your expertise, because of course, you know, someone like Joe, who is obviously incredibly well known and respected in the copywriting world. I’m sure she has far more projects coming at her than she can accept. So, having less supplied than its demand obviously means that, you can charge higher rates, because you are a scarce resource.

Comtaining offers also matter, particularly in terms of how yours compares, whether that is the fact that it’s you who’s actually offering that service and in your prospect’s eyes, that makes it a more valuable thing, or whether it’s because, you know, your has a more holistic approach or they get more, deliverables, whatever that might look like, positioning, which is your ability to actually communicate your offer in terms of its features, benefits, any guarantees you can offer, those comparisons too with your competitors can often be really, really key in good positioning, and of course also the social proof so that you can prove that, you know, people are actually very likely to get, the results that you are talking about, as you promote your offer.

So the other major factor that influences pricing is, of course, you, so your financial needs and goals, the way you want to work the clients you want to work with, the expertise you’re willing to build, the demand you’re able to create, and, of course, the price you’re confident charging So in other words, all that mindset stuff that comes alongside of all the positioning stuff on the first slide.

So I think, you know, It can help full of things that were on the previous slide to think about something as simple as like the cheese cabinet at your local supermarket. You know, there’s a whole range of different options there, and each of those are positioned for a certain market. You know, they’ll be the cheap five dollar block of cheese that, you know, might be targeted towards families or students or whoever, and there might be the fancier, you know, rounds of brie that are twelve dollars a pop that obviously have a different target market, and they are positioned and packaged, etcetera accordingly.

So that can be sort of a helpful metaphor I think start thinking through the positioning of your offer and the price it should be given who it’s for, what it offers, etcetera, etcetera.

We will obviously be diving into everything on this slide, in a few more minutes, but while we’re talking about the more, I guess, practical elements of pricing, I wanted to just spend a couple of minutes talking about non monetary ROI because I know for some of you in the group, the line between your work and money made for your clients is harder to draw or sometimes not even that relevant.

So So other really valuable things that clients can get from the kind of work that we in this group provide are things like competence or legitimacy so for example, if someone is an excellent service provider, but they have a website that they built themselves two years ago on a dodgy like WordPress template, you know, being able to, have a website that’s professionally done messaged professional copy, etcetera, can really help with that sense of legitimacy around their business and their work.

Clarity as well. So often, even working, as I do with launch clients are being able to get real clarity on what it is they’re offering and being able to have the words with which to communicate that can be credibly valuable because it allows them to do things like appear on podcasts or on stages and talk about their business and their work, a lot more easily.

Opportunity, of course. So, you know, if you’re able to provide a client with a service that sort of helps them go up a level or become more visible, there’s going to be in all likelihood more opportunities come their way. There can also be things like customer or client status action. So example, for example, if you optimize UX, so if you’re working with a business on their onboarding sequence, for example, and didn’t have one before, that optimized UX, even though it comes after the point of sale, can help with things like retention, etcetera, etcetera.

So note that all of these can and often do lead to monetary gains, it’s just that the line between them is less direct or harder to measure. So if you are working in a space with one or more of your offers where the ROI isn’t necessarily all about money, or it may be kind of about money, but you’re like, how do I actually prove or measure this? Here are some tips. So find out what matters to your prospects and why.

So for example, if a prospect says to you, I just wanna site that makes me look look legit. Like, I’m over this dodgy DIY version I’ve had for the last year and a half, make sure that you ask them. Okay. What will that allow you to do? Why is that important to you right now? Because then you’ll get to the point where they might say something like, that way I’ll be more likely to pitch myself for those bigger deal opportunities. You know, I’ll be likely to put myself front of, the bigger deal clients, or I’ll reach out to pitch more in person events, whatever that might look like to them.

So, of course, in that scenario, if your client is doing more pictures and they have the assets to back them up, whether that is the words to talk about what it is they actually do and what they offer and what their expertise is, or, again, a website in this example that actually displays their for these, illegitimacy, words from, you know, clients who they’ve done really amazing work with, that equals more chances of lending gigs, which equals greater exposure, more leads, and ideally more revenues. So as you can see, in a scenario like this, the line between the you do and the money your client stands to make from it is quite removed, but in this situation, it still is there.

So what you wanna do is once you’ve identified that, assuming you close the project, you know, it’s actually then go back and close the loop. So remember to ask about those things once the project wraps and there’s been opportunity for these desires to be realized. So, I mean, ideally you don’t wanna ask for feedback about your work, you know, two days after you submit because there would have been no chance for it to be liven out in the wild and helping their client, helping your client achieve all these goals that they have for it.

But that way, if there is a line to draw between your work and dollars made, you’ve got a really concrete way to do it. Right? You’ll have a testimonial. You’ll have social proof, which you can then leverage, throughout your assets and your online presence and in your sales process trial. And even if there’s no line to draw, which again, no problem at all, people will pay good money for things that are not all about money and profit, you still have proof of the outcomes that matter.

So just just a little reminder that ROI can and often does look different to purely monetary things, and I think getting an understanding of this stuff can also help with your positioning in your USPS. So for example, even though I worked in launches, one thing my clients will very regularly say about working with me is that I just took everything off the plate, their plate, and made their launch so low stress and so easy and almost enjoyable. And I found that has been a really valuable piece of the puzzle for me to leverage my social footprint in my marketing to help me land more clients and specifically more of the clients that I wanna work with, and of course that has nothing to do with the the actual money made.

Alright. Diving a little bit deep now into the more mindset side of pricing.

So Abby also shared that I’m craving external validation and permission to charge more. But there’s still a feeling of who am I to ask for all this money.

Angelian, you said that you sort of are earning more towards side of being like you’re undercharging. So this may hit home for you.

I don’t know if you’re free to give me a thumbs up if it does and, you know, ignore me if it doesn’t, and no one may It does.

Okay. Awesome. And Nolan little nod there, I think, from you too. This sounds like an resonant sometimes.

Sometimes I’m like, oh, this is awesome, you know, and then I’m like, yeah, my goodness. This, but then, you know, the KPIs tend to speak for them ourselves, or or sometimes they don’t, you know.

Yeah.

That’s the beauty of our the nature of our work, you know.

That’s why we test too.

Absolutely. Yeah. Testing, oh my god. So much value in that process.

And Randall, I think you might have been about to say something? So you unmute?

Well, when I was, yeah, on the market, definitely trying to figure out, Yeah. Why should somebody pay me this kind of cash?

Mhmm.

Yep. Yes. I think almost every business owner has this worry at one time or another, and it can be quite a persistent question. And I think again, this is one of the things that is really problematic about the advice of charging what you’re worth So let’s dive into this. So first up, two quick statements, your work does not equal your worth, as a human being, as a person, and your business doesn’t equal you. So what I mean by both of these statements, this is an example that I hope is relatable, When you buy KFC, are you thinking about paying the kernel or are you thinking about buying the chicken?

So I think it’s just so important to really set the right frame for the exchange because that’s what pricing is. Right? It’s about picking the number or learning on the number that is a fair exchange for the work the outcomes that you’re going to be able to offer the person purchasing.

So remember that your prospects aren’t buying you, right? It’s not a reflection of your worth as a human being, lot of reflection of, you know, how much an hour with you is worth as a person.

They’re buying a product And in many cases, also an experience, right? And this can be part of how you differentiate yourself and part of how you add real value to the people that you serve. That you offer with clear expectations around the exchange, including the process, the likely outcomes, and what you’ll do to minimize risk So, I mean, I think as you can probably tell by this statement, the best pricing and the best conversations around pricing are really transparent. Right? It’s about both parties being able to make a really informed decision on, is this worth the money that this person is charging?

So I think if you are ever getting stuck on questions like, oh god, can I really charge this much? Come back to this, and just remember that to set to set your sights on this, and to not worry about anything beyond this, because this is the question that you are answering whenever you pricing, a product or a service or a program.

I wanna dive into internal narratives here, particularly those around worth and what you deserve, you notice I have both of those words in quotations, I think throughout this whole presentation because I think they’re quite loaded, quite loaded terms.

So I think the fact of the matter is that most of us have stumbled into copywriting, and there’s no formal universal process of accreditation. Right? It’s not like if you’re a doctor, for example, or a therapist where you have to meet certain requirements and also maintain, a currency within that industry, right, you have to do, while listing Australia, you certainly have to attend a certain number of training and get a certain number of hours of supervision to be able to maintain a license that says that, yes, this person is qualified, and adequate to continue practicing. That does an existing copywriting, right?

So in other words, it’s largely up to us as individuals to view ourselves as being up to task, which means that the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and how we operate can be hugely influential.

Both in really positive, facilitative ways, but unfortunately more often, in ways that are quite restrictive or limiting.

So in tonal narratives, this comes from the world of psychology, which is what my background is in. I worked as a therapist for a number of years before I stumbled into copywriting, and I used to do a lot of narrative therapy with my clients as well. But basically, these are the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves and they are hugely influential because they do all sorts of things from shaping our identities to giving events in our lives, meaning They also tell us what we deserve, what we’re capable of, what our purpose is, and what our future should look like, and really at the crux of it, they influence the way we think feel and behave.

So for example, someone who has an internal narrative that I’m a slow learner is going to be less likely to seek and accept opportunities that put them in stretch and under pressure than someone who has an internal narrative that I always figure it out. So again, there’s a difference there between the internal narrative, which is what’s going on inside here, and the actions that we’re taking in the world, but there is a direct link between the two.

So therefore, in this scenario, person a, the I’m a slow learner is going to grow in skill and confidence more slowly than person b, and this is regardless of their expertise or ability. Right? So these stories we tell ourselves often have no burnt and no bearing on how qualified we are but they do have a huge influence on how we act and how we show up in the world and also, of course, how we approach our pricing and those conversations around that and the feelings that we have around that. So if you need I I wanna stop here and just ask if Any of you have any insight into what some of those internal narratives are for you, particularly when it comes to how they may influence your pricing.

And if it helps, like, as a personal example, when I first started copywriting, I came from an industry from psychotherapy that was highly regulated you know, I had postgraduate degree. I was registered with the relevant body here in Australia, etcetera, etcetera. There were so many checkpoints for me to go to, and then all of a sudden was in this profession that really just relied on me saying, Hey, I’m a copywriter now.

So for the long time, the first probably twelve, eighteen months of been in business, one of my internal narratives was like, you know, no one’s qualified me for this. So that was something that really impacted how I showed up the kind of work that I accepted and sought out and also the price of the decisions that I made. So I’m just wondering, Nolan Randall, Julian, is there anything coming up for any of you in terms of some of these stories that might be going around in your heads.

Here’s the I think for me, it was a matter of the question of selling. What was the big story?

And that, I, you know, growing up I’m much more close to identify with my dad than I do with my mom. My mom was in real estate.

She sold and sold and sold, all the time, you know, dinner after dinner, you know, I mean, not quite that bad, but, you know, She slept tonight.

And, And so I didn’t wanna be in sales. That was a big part of who I thought I was.

Mhmm.

And then when I left the academy and went to sales, that was that was hard.

And finding that strategy, you know, and you know, tapping into people’s needs rather than, and, you know, how I could provide solutions, that was hard. It was really hard. So not quite, I think, in terms of, this example, exactly. But, yeah, that that story, until I switch, from the selling to the solutions part. It took a while.

So Yes. Totally. And I know, and I think that’s a really great example. And maybe it’s not specific the pricing, but definitely to the process of lending clients, you know, because if you have a narrative that, like, I’m not a salesperson or, you know, even something like sell selling is unethical, and I didn’t know if that was quite correct for you or selling is IKE, that’s obviously going to impact the way that you show up to those conversations and those tasks. So that’s an awesome example. Thanks, Randall.

Nolan, I see you unmuted yourself.

Oh, yeah. No. Sorry. Yeah. No. That was that was awesome. Really well said that. Yeah.

So for me, I have two that instantly come to mind. And one that I know is, like, a more positive one, which is, like, I’m good with analytics and math because you mentioned real estate. That’s like what my background is, and I had that same thing where I hated the idea of sailing because before that, even I did, like, accounting and bookkeeping fellowship, used to crunching numbers and things like that. And then when I got into real estate, I was like, oh, man.

I I have to and I I’m okay with talking with people. I’m completely fine with that. I mean, the the fact that it’s, like, I need to be a little bit pushy. So what I found is a strategy that works for me to get people sold is, like, similar to you doing copywriting, you know, you speak to the one odd And for me, that was people who were like data geeks and wanted to know, like, macroeconomic facts about, like, the local market and things like that.

So I just spoke to that and I I stuck with that. And then the one thing that this is a little more specific to pricing is that, like, holy shit, I just made, you know, more than a hundred dollars in an hour for x amount of hours. Like, I’m not used to that, you know. It’s like it’s kinda crazy.

Mhmm. But then again, it’s like you said, just going back on the, the internal narrative kinda thing. It has to kinda it’s really strong stuff, but it’s, like, just kinda resonating right now. Like, because it goes into the subconscious that you build yourself where it’s, like, either I’m a slow learner, so I’m going to go about this differently. Like, you’re setting yourself up for these kind of things.

So Yeah. Absolutely.

If they’re positive or negative or both or confusing, or jumble of all.

Right?

Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. There’s lots of gray in this. They’re not necessarily always positive or always negative. There can be some which can go either way depending on the situation in the scenario, and the events that are unfolding around you.

Right.

Anything you wanted to share Julian and no pressure if you if you nothing’s coming or you’d rather not. That’s okay.

Nothing’s specific. It’s going to mine right now, but I’m I’m sure I have some of it.

No. No worries.

So I think one of the things that, is really useful to keep in mind, I think, when you are starting to spend some time trying to identify and then work with or work through those internal narratives that you may have that can get in the way of pricing and even selling as Randall and Ola Nubo shared, and I guess particularly if you’re thinking about any narratives around your worth, the narrative of I don’t know enough, which can be a common one if you’re in phase of learning a lot about copywriting or how to run a business, for example, that can be just as limiting as a narrative of I know it all. So people will often think that the answer to, like, not knowing enough is getting to the point magically somehow across some huge goal where all of a sudden you have all the information, you have all the answers, and you’re just like an infallible expert.

Both of those narratives, I think, are just as limiting because they both block learning and growth, and furthermore they rarely close sales. Right? The I don’t know enough person is likely to show up as being quite nervous, or maybe a little bit unqualified or, not as a partner, which if anyone watched my first training around sales calls, that is what good clients want. They want a partner, that they can work with towards the goal.

And someone who has a narrative of I know it all is likely to show up as being a bit of an arrogant dickhead, which is, again, someone that people probably don’t want to work with, right? And I think the, I know it all one is all often have blinkers on. They’ll be, convinced that their way is the right way, and they won’t have the flexibility to respond to challenges as they unfold, which let’s be honest, it is rare that you have a project that goes one hundred percent smoothly, and that everything that you think you’re gonna do at the beginning of the project is exactly what you do at the end.

There are often bumps and humps to overcome along the way.

So a far more fruitful narrative is I trust myself to figure it out, and I think one of the beautiful things about this is it’s takes away, the wait time between maybe not knowing enough and, like, having to magically somehow know everything, right? As you can be in the middle here and just be curious enough and open enough and have enough knowledge about what it is that you’re doing and who it is you’re working with to be able to make really informed decisions as you go. I think it also takes the pressure off, because it’s not about like being fully qualified and fully ready every single time for every single opportunity that comes knocking at your door, but it’s about saying, okay, this is gonna be a bit of a stretch or a bit of a challenge for me.

That’s a good thing. Like, let’s do this because I do back myself to actually be able to work through this in real time. And this kind of attitude is so appealing to clients too because It’s a bit like if you, I don’t know, like some plumbing in your house breaks and you don’t know what the problem is, but you know that your tap’s leaking and you can’t fix it, you know, it is a nice, safe feeling to be able to book a plumber, even if they can’t tell you over the phone, okay, it sounds like this is the problem. If they’re like, okay.

Yeah. I’m not sure, but I’ll definitely be able to work it out. Like, you know, I’ll come and have a look, and I’ll identify the problem, and I’ll, and I’ll give you a fix. So that can also be a helpful metaphor I think too when you’re thinking through what this narrative can look like in practice.

So in terms of how you build that narrative or more helpful narratives around, blocks you might have around things like sales, etc.

The key here is, a process called reauthoring, that’s what we call it in therapy, but basically it involves looking for exceptions to whatever limiting narratives you have around skills, your ability, or your worth, or selling, and mounting a case for more facilitative ones. So, single questions to ask here, if one of the narratives that does show up for you is around, you know, a lack of knowledge or skills or experience, can be one of you impressed a client or peer with your expertise, When have you surprised yourself with your know how or your ability, when have you got great results for a client or for yourself, don’t forget that often so many of the skills we use in our copywriting, projects are also applicable to what we’re doing in our own businesses.

When have you successfully tackled a new challenge or expanded your skills or expertise on the go, when has your work just flowed?

And for all of these questions, how did that feel? And focusing on the feeling of those experience. This is really important because as I’m about to show you, that helps, really rewire the brain in a more substantial, way.

Some other questions that you could ask. If you are stuck as, I mean, Randall, it sounds like you’re past this now, Nolan, I think you might be as well, but for anyone who’s an idiot watching the replay, and you identified with, what those two have shared about some feelings around sales and selling, you know, some of these questions could be, for example, when did a sales conversation feel more like service, for example, or when did having making a sale result in solving someone’s problem. So trying to find things that are exceptions to the rule or the idea or the story or the narrative in your head that, you know, selling is icky or like I’m not a salesperson, like finding exceptions to that so that you can thicken that experience.

And ideally, over time, and, with repeated, focusing on these exceptions to whatever that narrative might be, building those neural pathways in your brain so that you’re more wired, quite literally, like in a physical way, to expect those experiences, and therefore to act and respond to events in a way that aligns with those rather than the more, restrictive narratives that you may have at play.

So just some quick neuroscience here, and this may be old news to some of you, but our brains do have a bias towards both encoding and retaining more negative experiences, because from an evolutionary perspective, it’s important for us to have an almost automatic response to danger. If we’re in a situation that is dangerous, we wanna be able to respond without thinking. Crossing the road, there’s a car coming at you. You wanna be able to jump out of the way, without really having to think, oh, there’s a car. Oh, it’s coming quite fast and, you know, get hit.

So for that reason, unfortunately, it is the more negative experiences, which do make more substantial neural pathways in our brains. So these are often actually called in the in the literature channel. I love this term, superhighways, because those neural pathways are so established so thick and so smooth, it actually makes it very easy, for our brains to, like, send signals and synapses down those pathways. There’s very little resistance unfortunately, they’re often thicker than the pathways that we have for more positive experiences, which of course creates a bit of a chicken and egg type scenario, because not only are we wired to, respond to those things more quickly and more readily and to just jump down that path, we’re also more wired to attend to those things. So again, it’s about how we view and interpret the world and how we respond and behave based on those interpretations.

So, the good news, as you will no doubt, know, is that our brains plastic. Right? It’s never too late to change some of the wiring in our brain.

And, the process of reauthoring, so of spending time attending to noticing reliving dwelling.

That’s funny. I feel like you really get the in life to dwell on something, but dwelling on those more positive experiences, or those exceptions to whatever more challenging narratives you have around pricing and worth and value and expertise, etcetera.

That can be visualized as a small tree, growing Well, sorry, put your little lovely heads in the way, growing an increasing number of limbs as clients notice and re experience moments that can be connected to the preferred neural network, While this network may remain thin or sketchy at first, through repeated neural linking and firing, it will progressively expand in thickness and speed of connection.

So basically all of this stuff, I know it might sound quite woo woo, but it’s based in science, and I think the really cool thing is that it’s based in like physical so stuff that if you had access to functional MRIs, you would be able to see over time those connections thickening and becoming the preferred, preferred course of response inside of your brain. So it really is about changing the way you think in order to change the way that you act.

So the last thing I wanted to just touch on here, and then let’s have a nice juicy discussion. If yes, we’ll have time, on whatever’s come up for you. So this is the last thing that I’d be shared in Slack, and she said I have this comfort around charging good people for projects and I can’t guarantee they’ll make back their investment. What if I do everything I can to make the project a success, and it’s not enough?

Is this ever something that comes up for anyone when you are either selling a project, pricing project, or delivering a project?

Yeah. I relate to this one.

Yep.

Cool. Certainly. Yeah.

Yep.

And thumbs up from Randall. Yeah. And I mean, it is one of the facts about, you know, the work that we do. Right? There’s never any one hundred and ironclad guarantee, even if you do your best work, that it’s going to get the exact results that your client wants.

So because you can never fully guarantee results, think about what you can guarantee when you’re selling your offers or your products. So maybe it’s your process or parts of it. So for example, you can guarantee. So let’s say that you’re gonna do voice of customer research or you can guarantee that the client is going to see a messaging document before you go ahead and write the first copy asset. So they’ll be, you know, on board with the messaging and where it’s come from, etcetera, etcetera.

It could be that you’re guaranteed a round of optimization. And again, there’s no guarantee that that round of optimization is going to get to the promised land of results, but of course, the guarantee that you’re going to come back in at the relevant period of time and optimize what you can, you know, with the idea of improving the results that your client is seeing, that can be a really powerful thing to guarantee. Or it could even be something like a sixty minute strategy call say mid launch, often that’s a time when clients can start flipping out because there’s that mid launch dip or one month after the website goes live or whatever makes sense for the work that you do.

So those are just some ideas, and I think Whatever it is that you do want to guarantee about the work that you do, just make sure that it’s really specific and measurable or check offable because these things give you and your prospects confidence in your ability to deliver on it. Like it’s going to be something that both you and your client can confidently and honestly say, yep, I did that. That’s done. I’ve done what I’ve promised.

And I think by doing that, it does help, you get free of the discomfort around not being able to promise hundred percent the outcomes because you are promising something that you can absolutely control.

Did I deliver this part of my process? Did I show up for that sixty minutes strategy session? Did I do that round of optimizations? Both you and your client can say, yes, and I think that removes the friction around that and allows you to step into charging rates that are appropriate for the work that you’re doing.

And this is a final note on this guarantee stuff.

If you need help thinking through, what this might look like, this could be a helpful metaphor, imagine you order eggs benedict with smoked salmon at a cafe you’re trying out for the first time, but ends up being a bit meh, like it’s just not very tasty, whatever it might be. You’ve really got no form of recall right, other than to make an agreement with yourself never to go back there to get Brecky again. But if it comes out with him, you can then let the waiter know, hey, this isn’t what I ordered, feel pretty confident that the situation will be rectified. So you want to create this kind of clarity, for your prospect or for your client with whatever guarantee you So it’s something again that’s really specific, and really easily be able been able to be checked off as like either delivered or not.

Because again, that sort of certainty really increases both buyer confidence and also seller confidence, and can help you stand behind rates that are higher, and sell the sell those things more confidently. Alright.

So I wanted to leave some time for questions and also just diving into some of this stuff because obviously mindset stuff is, often quite personal, and see one little thing in the chat here.

Mylan wraps. What’s a mylan wrap, Randall?

Well, I think it’s the myelin that wraps around your neurons to Oh. The explanation.

If I I just Yeah.

What?

Think I’m hoping that the mylan wrapped around my memory of reading this awhile back. I was hoping you could confirm that.

I actually can’t. Sorry. Mylan wraps. It might I’ll I’ll I’ll check it out for you.

No big deal. There’s no No.

But I will. I’ll check it out for you. It’s not ringing any bills, but it definitely doesn’t mean that it’s not part of this process.

So let me I’ll I’ll get back to you in Slack.

Any questions, comments, anything anyone wants to workshop in terms of, you know, their thoughts around pricing, their specific challenges, Yeah.

I got a quick question on the the guarantee kind of thing. I think it, and it wasn’t your I have in my notes here somewhere.

So this might actually be voice of coach rather than voice of consumer, but I think, I have something in here that says, when you’re presenting an offer to someone, you could say something I’m a hundred percent certain that this is where we should begin testing, right, rather than saying, I think this is a hundred percent gonna get yield these specific results. Right?

Hundred percent. Yes.

Gotcha. And that’s such a reassuring thing, I think, for both of you, and I think that’s such a great way to have coming across as the expert that you are. Right? And yet it flips the frame in a way that doesn’t set you up for trouble or your client up for disappointment down the track.

Right? Because even with all the, you know, the proper data, sometimes, you know, we just need to test a different angle, and maybe that angle does three hundred percent better than the other, just off some small difference. Right?

Yep. Hundred percent. Love that. That was a very easy question.

That’s good, Noel. I like that. That’s nice.

Right. Voice of Coke, BOC. I love that we dove into some neuroscience because, my thing is all about, like, behavioral marketing strategy. And I’m reading this book right here. It’s all about behavioral science. It talks about some of that stuff you were going into.

So I was just like, wow, that’s crazy that I literally have this my address, you were talking about that.

How good? What a good coincidence?

Go ahead.

Anything else coming up for anyone?

More of a a thought to share rather than, like, a a question, but I do like, how you framed it is, and and additional to just like the ROI, how there’s a lot of not necessarily tangible measurements that go into your pricing, but things like, you know, the experience and the product. Right? And for my a dimensionalization thing. Like, I was just in Disneyland a few months ago, and, like, there’s a thing you can buy there where it’s, like, you can build your own lightsaber. Right? And it’s, like, a pretty good quality lightsaber. You’re mainly buying the experience because you can buy a a similar way higher quality light saber for much less.

Yes. Oh, yeah. I love that. I also really wanna go and do that.

Sorry. Yeah.

It seems like I missed out on it. I was like, okay, next time.

That’s the way it is.

Oh, but yeah, definitely.

It’s, I think, yeah, the advice that, like, good pricing is all about ROI, I think, Again, that’s, like, not nowhere near nuanced, nuanced enough, to be a helpful statement, but also I think it puts you in the frame of reference of thinking about money whereas, of course, ROI is often about so much more than money.

So it’s just about finding what the what the value in that service or that offer or that product is, and yeah, being open to that being a largely intangible thing.

So, you know, for example, I mean, coaching is a great example. Right? I mean, yes. Often, you know, when you work with a coach, that will end up in you making more profit, more revenue, etcetera, but the process by which that happens is often a bit indirect because it’s working on things like your mindset or it’s working on things that might be more process related. So yeah, just thinking through what that looks like for the work that you do can be really helpful, not just in you being able to set a better price, but also in you being able to communicate, the value and the position of your offer.

Right. No. That makes sense for sure. And also, like, to touch more on the the ROI, there’s like a a cost, not necessarily return, but, like, say, like, I think Ryan was talking about one of his workshops when you’re, like, productizing one of your services.

Not only needs to be simple for them to understand what it is. It needs to be simple for them to implement because you have to take into consideration the time and the team’s bandwidth, right, that you’re sending this over. And, like, what other systems do they have to do to juggle in your thing that’s gonna help them out. Like, is that gonna be easy?

Is that something they can do just like that?

Like, we have to consider that cost as well.

And another ROI, I think maybe it could even be like relationship with a client. Right?

Mhmm. Yeah. Definitely. Yes.

I mean, the experience, I guess, of working with can also be hugely valuable, or it could be hugely taxing, right, if that is not a good fit.

So, yeah. Right.

I’m sorry, but I’ve been like I had a headache so it’s like horizontal up right now.

I’m just gonna say you look lovely.

Yeah.

I know.

I was, like, lying down.

I have this has been really great, Christy. Thank you so much. No problem. I have kind of a more specific, like, scenario situation.

That I posted about in Slack, a few weeks ago I think you responded to because I was like, we’re coming up on the end of the year.

I was going to raise my rates for Mhmm.

Specifically my VIP days. Like, I’m fine with my big project rates.

Like, I’m raising those all the time when I, like, I feel good about those rates.

Awesome.

But I’ve just done the same VIP day, right, since I started doing them. Basically, I’ve done so many, and I even had, like, I think I shared in Slack, like, I had this client who had been doing regular days with multiple times a month for the past year straight, and he always he’s like, you need you you’re way under charging. You should be charging way more, like, gotten tons of results for him. Like, he’s like, you’re my secret weapon. You should raise your weights, not for me, of course, but for everyone else.

And, you know, and I I also, if you I just, like, haven’t because they’re so easy for me to sell. I don’t I don’t know if that’s really like a a mindset thing in terms of what I think it’s worth. It’s more just I think a fear of like that people just won’t pay. I don’t know.

I don’t know how to articulate it. It’s like people just don’t have that budget. That’s not what they’re expecting to pay and so I’m Like, okay. So I’ll just sorry.

I’m like a little incoherent because I’m have a headache, but No. Can I get through it?

So I told so I I did I doubled my rates and Joanna said to at least double them. She was like, oh, you should four or five x them. That felt too scary. So I doubled them.

And I told this client in particular.

And even though he’d said all those things, he was like, whoa, like, you know, doubling your way. It’s like, and I just didn’t didn’t say much. I was just like, yeah, you know, it’s overdue.

Mhmm.

And he had had some things. He had messaged me about wanting to do a day and then I told him I doubled my rates then he was like, okay. Let’s hold off. I need to be like smarter about how I use you. Mhmm. But now I have to hurt.

But, like, we were still in contact, but, like, he hasn’t that’s work that I didn’t get because of that.

Gotcha.

And I think I’m struggling with that because well, I mean, just post holidays, like, I was sick for all of December. It didn’t work at all. Like, got. I’m very light on clients right now.

So I’m like, I’m I’m in this weird middle ground, like, the middle ground of raising your prices where I’m like, I know my current prices, like, it’s so easy for me to sell it. Mhmm. But then raising it, I’m like, I don’t wanna raise it and then not be able to get any work. Yes.

Yes.

And I think I’m like in this.

I don’t wanna be in the scarcity mindset, but I’m also like, trying to find that balance because I had another sales call yesterday too where I know I could have sold my old rate, but I pitched the new rate And he was like, he wouldn’t say no, but it, like, gave him more pause. And, like, he has to think about it now. You know? Yes. Yes.

I don’t know.

I don’t know what my question is exactly, but just like this kind of weird in between, like, trying to figure out what the right Mhmm.

Rate is or if you have any, like, thoughts on how to navigate that.

Yeah. For sure. And I’d love to hear, Nolan Randall sorts too. So two key things came up for me.

First of all, just because something is easy, it does not mean it’s not valuable. And I think that’s the trap we all fall into. But like, oh, but it, like, takes me like no time or no effort. Like, I can’t charge.

I can’t charge, you know, five thousand dollars for that when it’s like a, you know, one thousand dollar effort.

The fact that it’s easy often just means you’re very good at that thing, and therefore the quality that the client is going to receive is actually going to be worth a lot more than what you’re charging for at the moment. So that’s maybe a mindset thing to think about. The second thing is that I wonder if you’re now in the situation, that I touched on very briefly towards the start of the workshop where you will reach a ceiling with a certain type of offer and a certain type of client. So is it that I have no doubt at all that your service is worth what you’re charging for it now.

My question is whether you’re pitching it to the wrong people, and I don’t know whether that resonates I think that was my concern originally when I posted in clap in Slack.

That was my original concern, was that, like, I feel fine charging those rates. Like, I I feel confident and what I’m delivering. I’m just not confident in the client the types of clients that are contacting me right now. And because I haven’t done any authority building, like, I’m not I only have access to a certain level of client. Yes.

So I think that’s that was my concern.

So now I’m wondering, I’m like, do I backtrack? Like, what do I do? You know, like wait until I’ve yeah. I guess that’s my that’s a good point. I think that’s the thing that’s happening right now.

Yes. I would also suggest life just on a purely practical level, you know, giving old mate who told you to raise your rates and then was like, oh, I need to think more about how the, you know, strategically, that’s how to use your time now. Getting back in touch with him, and you could even offer to help him plan that out, like, to get because I think once you get that first day rate sold at that price. Like, it’s gonna feel amazing. And you’re gonna have the proof that you can sell it. You’re also gonna have, I guess, proof of what someone gets out of that experience that price. And I think then that is almost like the window into reaching more clients at that level.

So that that’s a very practical tip, but, not only the model. Is there anything else that came up for you guys?

Well, Julian, this that sounds like this client would be an excellent, case study.

Yeah. Definitely.

In the process of doing the case study, you’d be reminding this client how much value you gave them.

Right.

And so that would be kind of a you know, soft sell reminding, like, what is missing from his work at this moment.

Yeah.

Right? So I don’t know. That might if if that’s something you like to use for, social proof.

Definitely. Yeah. The only reason I’ve held off on study for his clients was we’re still doing ongoing work together, and he’s, like, about to launch a whole another thing. So I’ve just been kinda waiting.

Until the right moment for that just because there are like more things happening.

And I do think, like, he’ll still he’s definitely still, like, not gonna not work with me anymore. It’s just like it kind of, you know, there’s a little bit of a shakeup, but I will say I so I’ve only He’s the only person I told the other other my other clients, like, they kind of come and go. But, I I had two sales calls this week, The first one was a client that, like, I even told them upfront that I was like, I don’t think this is a good fit, but they still really wanted to talk. So I was like, okay.

I’ll talk to you. Still thought it wasn’t a good fit, but, like, he was willing to pay he was, like, budget not an issue I told him the day rate, told him my project rates. He was, like, not a problem, but I still turned it down. So I guess I did technically, like, sell it without selling it, or I had someone who would be willing to sell it.

So I guess I kinda forgot about that until now.

But so I was just focusing on the ones I was trying to sell them and couldn’t, but Yep.

So, yeah, I got through some it’s just a weird what’s that?

Sorry. No. You go.

It’s just, yeah, it’s just a weird I’m in a weird in between place right now. Because my my project rates aren’t published, so I can I raise them all the time just on the sales? Like, I kinda just determine, you know, we’ll raise them. I don’t have to tell anyone or announce it. This is the first time I’ve done it where it’s like a set price that’s increasing.

Yes.

Two two quick things. First of all, I just I think it’s awesome. I think it’s so, so, so, so good that you still turned away that client, even though they would have been willing to pay the rate.

It’s never worth working with a bad fit client, even if you get the money, and you know that, but that’s just so good.

And secondly, I feel like maybe, like, a helpful way to think about what’s changed for the client who told you to raise your rates and is now sort of has not booked in another day at that rate since you raised it is it’s almost like you’ve changed the perception of yourself in his eyes. So you’ve gone from, like, you know, to use the cheese cabinet analogy again. I obviously love cheese. You’ve gone from like the super delicious like five dollar block that like didn’t just buy without thinking and like, oh my god, like, this is such a steal to, like, being the twelve dollar wheel of brie that, you know, you know, is delicious.

But like you now have to think a bit more carefully about when you’re going to invest in and and eat eat that, I guess, because it’s not as disposable.

So that’s not a bad thing, right, to increase your value and to own that is a good thing, but it has changed, I think, his perception of, like, booking and using you. So I’d definitely reach back out to him and just offer to be like, hey, like, I know you’ve got this new launch, whatever coming up, and I know that you do wanna together again, but you wanna be more strategic about how you use me since the investments increased. Like, did you wanna talk about that? Did you wanna hop on a thirty minute call and we can talk about that?

Yeah. That’s a really good that’s a really good suggestion. I’ll definitely do that.

Awesome. And let us know how it goes. I feel like sometimes the loops don’t get closed in and I’m like, oh, no. I wanna know. So please. Hello.

Yeah. Yeah. And know that was that did feel like like saying no to that other client, especially. So I I feel like I have it taken on projects before kind of with what you mentioned where it’s like, I can figure it out, but then being really it’s not so much that I don’t think I could figure it out.

It’s more just that I’ve taken on projects in the past when I’m like, I don’t have any other clients, and I know I can figure it out, but it stresses me out so much and I spend way too much time on it. And that’s the part I didn’t wanna do. I was like, I’m just not willing to be really stressed about a project even though I would figure it out because I will spend way too much time on it. You know?

Yes.

And then it’s But that’s not like the wind is like, I don’t wanna do that anymore.

I’m just not gonna take on. I’m gonna I’m gonna, like, believe that there are other things that I’m just making space for them.

So Yes.

Amazing.

Yeah.

Hey, Jill. Could you talk Jill, could you talk about your VIP day rate just for a minute or two?

Yeah. I’m actually teaching a four part in February done with you VIP day course for copy hackers. So you’ll see that coming up soon.

But, yeah, if you have is there did you have a certain question about it?

No. I again, I’m relatively new to the industry.

So I’m just wondering, like, what the general Oh, like, what it is?

Is that what you said? Just wondering what it is?

Yeah.

Oh, it’s just, it’s like a so I have my project there’s project rates that takes me, you know, six to eight weeks for a full website project. And then the my only kind of smaller offering is or someone can book me for a full day. So it’s like a full seven hours just dedicated to their project, that I have regularly. So they can kinda get on my calendar more quickly.

Understood.

Yeah.

So it’s kind of like an intensive session.

But this is basically on website copy or like, what is one of the variety of things will fall into that mix?

A variety of things. Some people do them for just one thing. I often do it for website.

Copy, but I’ll do it for smaller, like smaller projects that aren’t big enough for me to quote for. A lot of times, these plans have already worked with. So I already done all their research, and then they want something small that, like, isn’t worth my time to quote or plan. So I’ll just put it into a day or a half day.

I see. Thanks. Yeah.

Awesome. And just to maybe close a loop, julie, and so I feel like sorry, Anna. I feel like the you might be hitting up against a practical problem rather than a mindset problem because you’ve done the thing. You’ve raised the rate.

You’ve pitched it. Like, you’ve turned someone down even. So I think your mindset is correct. It’s just, yeah, you might maybe in a situation where you need to up level the people that you’re talking to in terms of prospects.

But I’d say, like, Old mate is definitely a shoe, and he just needs a nudge that was some Australian old nature shooting.

I’ll tell him that. I’ll tell him. Yeah.

So to to translate that, that means I think that that client is definitely gonna book with you. He just needs, yeah, a gentle knowledge to make that happen.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you for the yeah. Thank you for the suggestions.

No worries. Any final things from anyone?

No. Thanks for sharing. This was super helpful. Awesome. Yeah.

I appreciate you talking to you guys.

I really appreciate it. Definitely.

Yeah. Fine nice to see you all. This is great. Yeah, let’s keep chatting in slack, feel free to pin me with questions anytime. And, yeah, please let us know what happens, Dylan. I feel like the three of us will be here for other suggestions and also just keen to keen to follow the journey.

Cool. Thank you so much.

Alright, guys. Talk to you soon.