As everybody’s moving into, like, the next tier of growing your business, getting those all the other things that we’re talking about here in Copy School Pro.

Moving from looking for leads to making sure you have qualified leads and making sure you get more and more of them in. And then what do you do with those that don’t convert, what do you do with the email list that you’re building in some way, whether you’re like, I don’t really build one, Joe, or you’re like, well, I’ve put in got three hundred people on the list or I’ve got thirty thousand people on my list or whatever it is. If you’re not building a list of some kind, what’s stopping you? Not gonna get into the list building today, but what we are going to talk about is the fact that a lot of leads aren’t ready for you when you present an offer to them, or they sign up and they’re like, they join your list, and they’re not quite sure.

What they want or when they’re gonna need it, etcetera, etcetera. There’s all sorts of confusion. People don’t ghost you or say no to you simply because they’re always gonna say no to you. So we are talking about opens. When you have people who are on your list in some way.

It’s good to keep them engaged. So this is a trick. That I learned, a technique, a way to do that. Really straightforward. Everybody has heard of the nine word email.

Yeah. So if you haven’t Google it, it’s the nine word email.

But that’s a really that’s a way to reengage or reactivate somebody who has, you know, gone silent, on you a lead, and that could be a lead in any form. Right? So if you are selling courses or thinking of it, if you are taking clients, if you’re doing both, all of all of these people who you’re trying to reach out to or they reach out to you and these things don’t come together. We want to use something like the nine word email. So here’s the thing that we are doing today. I will switch over and share my screen and talk you through this really basic simple thing that we can all do. I actually Lindsay on my team is setting ours up.

So we can always ask Lindsay hard questions if we want to. Just kidding she’s still working on it. But I I love it and I wanted to share it with you the second I put my own together.

So here is the idea.

Over the course of a year, you drip out across every twenty three days across a year, you drip out in your email platform, active campaign ConvertKit, whatever you’re using. You set up an automation, and you could do this also in many chat as well. So if you’re like, I’m not really building my list, but I’m over on Instagram. I’m doing cool stuff over there. You can set up the exact same thing in Instagram so people who follow you can get this and Lindsay also does those for us. So she can maybe speak more to that. To what you would do in manychat, but here is the point.

You can both do this for yourself and sell this as something you do for clients. So if you’re like, you just wanna make some quick cash get another product type service or, like, you have, a client who is, who has, like, sales team or people that are involved in selling, including. They might have someone called an opener.

A setter, that’s usually an appointment setter, a warmer and a closer. So these are the sorts of roles that you might encounter or the terminology you might hear from client who needs something like this. We’re talking about opens here, opens including reactivation.

So what we do is we write sixteen. You just brain dump sixteen nine word email. They don’t have to be exactly nine words, but they are in the like great tradition of are you still looking for apps? So the nine word email I’m pretty sure it goes, are you still looking for such as, are you still looking for a hand with your website?

Are you still looking for, more conversions in your launches? Are you still looking for then whatever the thing is that you offer. Right? So are you still looking for new clients?

Are you still looking for x y z?

We go through and we brainstorm a variety of those and you can do that for yourself just again and again for one thing. If it is, like, I just wanna reopen conversations every twenty three days, automatically on the subject of me working for you. Okay. Fine.

Then you bring That’s all you’re selling. If you’re like, Joe, I’m fully on services. I don’t do other things. Cool.

Fine. That’s great. You’re going to brainstorm sixteen nine word emails, write them out, and then you schedule them in your solution every twenty three days. And that over the course of a year, a little bit over a year, that will drip out this ongoing engagement with books.

Does this make sense?

Okay. So you can do this for if you’re beyond plan at work and you want to diversify the way that you’re generating revenue if you’re doing webinars. If you have evergreen webinars, obviously, in particular, if you do the same webinar every two weeks live, which, by the way, a lot of people actually do. So don’t feel weird.

If you feel weird about evergreen webinars, if you thought about doing a webinar and you’re like, I don’t wanna evergreen it, but I also don’t know, should I be delivering it live all the time? Yeah. You can do that. It’s fine.

Demo of bookings and demo could mean anything. It could mean how you help a person’s team if you’re doing copykeeping services or something like that.

Consult calls and that’s where it’s a setter where you’re going to book an appointment. So, that’s the goal is to set that appointment. If you have a PDF or a book giveaway, that could be the subject of an email, any IRL events that you might do, and this might not be happening right now, but it’s good to think about as you grow. What you would kind of like replace certain emails with along the way.

If you have a podcast, book and guess on that podcast, if you have a course to sell, opening the conversation. These aren’t closers, and they’re not necessarily setters either. These are open or reopen conversations with people who could become your smart client.

Workshops, product history services, really the list goes on. So this is what you’re going to do for the next fifteen minutes, sixteen minutes to give you one minute fur. I’m gonna quickly show you what ours looks like, and these are just some of the emails that I’ve drafted out for, Lindsey.

Knowing that we have a little bit of complexity, that you shouldn’t normally really have to worry about if you have one thing you’re trying to get done or a one audience you’re trying to speak to. We have general everybody, and then we have freelancers, which are very they need very different messages than startup founder needs and then an in a then an in house copywriter needs, etcetera. So we wanna find out quickly out of the gate, hey, are you still freelancing? Is twenty three days after a person opt in to our general list.

They’ll get an email that has subject line freelancing question mark in order to try to move only people who are freelancing to open this, and then they’ll reply. Again, this is an open. This is not something where you’ll necessarily have another, message that follows absolutely in your platform, although you could. Right?

You could do all sorts of triggers in active campaign. In many chat where if somebody does something, then x happens. But the best the simplest way to go about this is to write the email, the nine word email that is just, hey, are you still blank? That’s it.

And don’t worry about setting up anything that follows twenty three days later, the next one goes out. I’m running a workshop on. This is for an evergreen webinar that Paul is working on right now on our team. Would you like join us.

They answer yes. The conversation is opened and that’s where you take over. This is manual work, but it’s also sell by chats, right? It’s it’s getting you into this world of selling with conversations that happen by email.

Or on Instagram or even on your website if you decide that you’re going to do this in like, messenger or something else and there are other tools we’re gonna talk about as we go through Coffee School Pro. Okay. We’re gonna give you sixteen minutes to write your own sixteen nine word emails. The fastest way to actually make sure you implement this is to go into your convert kit or active campaign or whatever, and write the automation right in there.

You don’t have to activate it if you’re like, oh, these suck. Just put the basics in there, twenty three day wait between each, and get it done. K? You’ll have till half past.

Do you have any questions before you go?

No?

Good? Yeah. Cool. Just crazy. Yeah.

Abby. Unlike I’m worried about unsubscribes with this. Like, is there a reason why I just shouldn’t be worried about that?

I I mean, it’s twenty three days in, in most cases, they’re already close to disengaged or disengaged anyway. So it’s just to get them back on board. If they, unsubscribe, that’s kind of a blessing. I know a lot of you love subscribers, but, yeah, I’m not saying don’t start this on day one, but twenty three days later is, yeah, three weeks of just hanging out.

Okay. Cool. Thanks.

Cool. Sure. Good question. Anyone else?

No?

Alright. Exactly sixteen minutes until we have to be done. Alright. I’ll be here if you have questions.

That is Daniel.

We finished. We get stuff done.

We not finished. Need more time. Jessica, how’d you do?

Good. I mean, I didn’t put it in my ESP yet, so I’ll hold off on that. But I did give me actually an interesting brainstorm in potential future webinars, workshops, things that I might wanna do. So it was good.

That’s cool. That’s good. It’s a good outcome. Anyone else wanna share what they experienced in doing those sixteen emails Okay. Johnson says it really helped identify easy opportunities in my options for Outreach.

Yeah. So these are obviously the little systems that you set up. As you go, and most people don’t. So if you do, well done.

If you walk away and you don’t end up setting this up, keep that in mind in twenty three days when someone could be replying to something and instead you haven’t reached up to them. So set it up. Go to the work. It’s really easy work.

So get her done. Alright. Now we open the floor for any questions anybody this week about any of the training or anything in your business, client management, all of that kind of stuff, As usual, please be on camera for this part and before you dive in, share a win. And that can be a win of any kind. As long as it’s something cool that you’re happy about, that’s hopefully a result of some of the work that you’re doing to grow your business make more money, get happy in your business, all that stuff. So does anybody have any questions today?

Okay. So that’s my win.

I think the biggest win for me this week was, client feedback that I received yesterday where I had sent a sequence, an email sequence and and they replied that it was perfect. The perfect balance of exactly what they were looking for. That was great because I don’t love revisions, so that was great.

No. No one likes revisions. Okay. Cool. Nice win. Good job.

Thank you. Okay. So here’s my question. It’s actually going back a couple weeks ago where we I I I asked the questions. That kinda he said to bring on a call. Never managed to make your life, so I’m asking now.

I’ll remind you where it was. You mentioned that the email agency boxcar does like think he says something like fifty, sixty k, even like two hundred and fifty k projects.

So I’m kinda toying with the idea of building out into an email, a ecomm email agency.

And I’d love to, like, hear I know that you do typically more SaaS, but I’d love to hear more about what does that project look like, know that you said an ever more retainer style and retainer agreements, but I’m just curious on how, like, the basics of how you set them up. And what kind of clients I’m looking for these type of projects?

Yes. I love it. Okay. So I’m just gonna document this of the basics.

Of these projects and the kinds of clients for it. Cool.

And let me know if I don’t hit any of those for you or you want further third because it’s a great question. And everybody here, everybody and everybody who joins, and everybody decided to start an email performance agency I firmly believe there would still not be enough.

People out there doing this work. Email is tricky. It’s a skill set that almost nobody internally has.

If you do have that skill set, you’ve probably been scooped up by somebody who has massive margins, like a coach that sells huge masterminds.

So they could afford to scoop you up Otherwise, we’re looking at companies that have so much writing on email, and so little in house talent on this stuff and I mean across the board in house talent. So attribution is hard enough for every business. And I mean when I mean business, I’m all we’re copy School Pro or not at freelancing School, I’m talking about real businesses with real money to spend not that one little shop that’s got one person who works of times.

Businesses that have cash and see more on the horizon if only and the if only in this case is we don’t know if em, emails are working.

We don’t know what the freaking benchmarks should be. Like, how should they performing, is this good?

The list goes on, and that’s just like the strategy side of it. They’re bringing in consultants in CRO. Almost every one of them will have some sort of CRO agency that they’re working with, who they hope can do the work of optimizing emails.

Never works largely because Email is the specialized skill set and the tools are not things that you just wake up and know, right? You need training on these tools as Lindsey on my team knows, she was doing both of them implementation for a boxcar, and you’ll have to have it doesn’t. You can train on it. You can learn it, but a CRO agency isn’t doing that.

Now, some will have some people in those CRO agencies who care about email, but that doesn’t mean that they’re going to be great at it. So email, skill sets are hard to come by. Email is direct response for modern marketers. It’s what we do, but just like printers, like print was tough for marketers thirty years ago and beyond past that.

Digital direct response is also like this mystery. Right? So There’s huge opportunity attached to it and they know that, but nobody can handle it. So what do you do?

It’s a lot like SEO. So when I when we had our CH agency, before it switched over to Boxgar. I was always frustrated because no matter what we did, it would end up coming down to how long does it take to to write a landing page? That sort of thing where you’d end up on retainer still selling hours because in those end month reviews, they look at the work you did.

And unless you’re a CRO agency, you’re not measured on performance the same way. Email, is really good to get measured on performance just like SEO. So I when we were at CH Agency, I was like, how do we just have a model that’s like SEOs have where they just get to say, oh, here are some things I did this month and look at the results. Like now you’re here on SERPS for this keyword and that’s like they could do that in twenty minutes or they could do it in twenty hours and it was really just like on performance.

It’s very hard for most things that copywriters do to be measured on ongoing performance, but email is one of those things. So With email, the basics of these projects are you are a brand that has an email platform already in place. You probably have about three of them. So most of them will have a sales team working using HubSpot.

If they’re in SAS, they might also have intercom.

They’ll have tools like Mandrill that will send, non marketing transactional emails. And then they’ll have another platform as well, like e commerce, they’ll have Playvio, and everybody else just has whatever spud e commerce is really big on klaviyo. So if you are gonna work with e commerce, get good at klaviyo. That should be your number one goal is get that certification in there right away, know how it works, so you can go in and be smart about it, too.

You will need to implement. Nobody in freelancing school wants to do this. I’ve brought this up in freelancing school and they’re like, uh-uh, I don’t implement. You are shooting yourself in the foot.

You are absolutely like you if you implement, you can measure if someone else implements, they’re measuring and they’re looking out for themselves. So you will guarantee someone else implementing your stuff is gonna implement it wrong, even if you QA it, and then they’ll say, oh, that didn’t work. And suddenly they’re in there editing your emails.

Hard pass. You are in control and the more in control you are, the higher the rates you can charge. If you’re a doer, your rates go down. If you’re a strategic you’re a partner, if you’re somebody who’s like in the tool, you are high value.

You’re so high value. The CEO knows your name. That’s a really important thing. Okay. So you have access to the tool.

They give you access to the tool. They’ll probably have to pay for another license for you.

That’s that’s that’s part of the game. Of course, you have to. Oh, yes, you have to give me access to the tool full access. No question about it, and your job is to make sure they feel confident in you so that they will do that, and that means you have to know.

You have to be like, you know, I know. Don’t worry. I’m never gonna hit publish or send on something, like, I’ve been down this road before. They have to trust you.

Right? So cool. And you have to make sure you don’t ever hit send on something. It’s actually not ready to go.

So you have access to the tool. You are involved and you put a road map together upfront. So the earlier conversations story for anybody who doesn’t give a shit about email You’re gonna get a download on everything email.

But you go into this knowing what the roadmap is. So for us we would, go through and have one or two hour session with the client with the key stakeholders. So everybody involved in email gonna be a lot of marketers, people in product, and some SDPs and stuff like that.

You’re gonna have that meeting with them, say walk me through the what you’ve already got out there. Let’s screen share, show me inside intercom.

Show me inside Playvio. I need to see this thing. Walk me through what that is. What’s that?

What’s that that asking questions, making notes, reporting things, then you put a roadmap together. This is just a gantt chart where you’re like, here on the far left column, these are all of the sequences you have, and these are the ones that you need, and these are the ones that are top priority, so obviously organized in the right way. Then you have months along the top. And all you’re going to do is fill in, we’re doing plan on this one.

Planning planning planning planning planning planning as you go down and then execution execution execution execution next to it. Just gantt chart stuff and measurement.

And optimization.

So by the time you’re done this freaking gantt chart, you have got two years of emails mapped out. They’re like, holy shit. It’s a lot of work. Are we sure we need to do this?

There might be some reprioritization that happens at that time. But what they see is wow, there’s a lot here. Now you have to make sure that they also see the value of that. So if you can, in that gantt chart, put in in the row for the item, whatever that sequence is that you’re gonna work on, whether it exists or doesn’t obviously you need some sort of it’s better if it does exist or you’re gonna optimize.

You can say this is currently performing at x percent conversion, paid conversion. Ideally, they this is close to money. So go with paid conversions.

Or if you’re dealing with somebody who has like show up, and stuff like that, whatever the case is, however they’re measuring it, whatever matters to them, show that there, and then talk them through what thirty percent lift over the course of six months. If you can optimize that flow over six months, what that could look like. And then they can start to associate money with it because you’re gonna have to get to the point. Where you say, Hey.

This is a lot of work over a lot of time. Lots of specialized skills in there and here’s my rate for that. So then you say what the overall project rate is divided up month by month. That can turn into a retainer or it can turn into a project with an end date.

A lot of companies will start with a project with an end date. And then go okay. We have so many more needs. Like, we’ve been talking about this internally, and then they show you this giant.

List.

And so the project, depending on how many emails you’re gonna get done in what amount time. So you do it does still come down to the work you’re going to do, but they’re not you might make a subject line change rather than a full rewrite, right? Like you’re solving for opens. Clicks conversions on the other page, etcetera. Right? So that’s how your performance is going, how you’re working on things when you’re optimizing for performance.

And that’s fine. That’s cool. That’s great. That’s good to not have to do massive swings all the time. You just need to figure out what you’re going to charge. So right now, I’m I’m not actively involved in boxcar at all, but we have other people who’ve come to us who are friends for, quote unquote help because they’re kind of desperate.

Because there are a lot of businesses that need this. And they’re in at twenty, thirty thousand dollars a month, just to get one sequence planned and another sequence written. So I’m just subcontracting this out to two freelancers I’ve got who went through the email intensive that we did last November.

Not this last one. The one before that, one does planning and the other does execution on it. They work together. They chat together.

But This is a cool tech company and they’re like, we have a four month project on this because I was like, I can’t be here. I’ve got work. I’ve got my own stuff.

And they’re desperate. They’re like throwing money at these people to stick around to come work for them obviously. The biggest one. It’s like, hey, can you work for me?

But yeah, that’s how it goes. So you can see at x amount per month, times even just four months. That’s already a really big project and we’re only doing one sequence a month. One’s planning.

The other is executing, and then once the plan is signed off on at the end of the month, then the person executes on the plan that got signed off on and we keep going forward like that. And that’s not even getting into optimization because I told them I’m not going to optimize. I can’t stick around for this. But the the opportunity here, I can’t say it enough.

This is it. This is this sort of thing every business needs. They’ve got masses of users and subscribers that are just sitting there and nothing’s happening to them. And anybody who’s a CEO or CFO is like, what are they doing there?

How do we get them out of there? And that’s where you come in. And nobody in the organization knows how. Nobody knows how.

The CMO was like, I’m pretty sure we can do this. Like, how do we do this? So you get the CMO to buy into it and then you go from there. I don’t know if that helps.

Tech companies are really obvious low hanging fruit, while large, e commerce, like where the product is expensive such as mattress brands and, other, like, hardware.

Those are because they have big margins, there’s a lots that they can win, that they don’t have to pay because ads aren’t working for them anymore, either. Right? Ads are really expensive, etcetera, etcetera.

Email is still a wonderful opportunity, so they’re happy to reallocate budget toward email. Does that help?

Yeah. That was hugely helpful. Especially, appreciated how you broke down what a twenty k month looks like and how you broke it down into, like, planning execution. One coming up. That was really helpful. Thank you.

Awesome. Good. I really want everybody. You can find a way to do performance like measure what you’ve done.

The retainer is like endless, and it’s just it’s exactly what CRO agencies do. It’s exactly what SEO agencies do. We’re just doing it for email in particular.

Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Good luck. Thank you. Sounds great. Follow-up questions for that.

Yeah.

So what you were saying about how it’s a very specific skill set So if you were to advise like a fresh freelancer, maybe fresh out of college or high school, and they decide they wanted to specialize in email and get that skill set, what would you advise them?

Yeah.

Follow everybody. This is like anything that you ever want to specialize in, one, it’s a good thing that you’ve identified.

One thing to specialize in. That’s one of the hardest things that copywriters have to do is, like, what’s what am I gonna do? That I could do, like, everything needs to be written. This, this, the someone has to write the product packaging for that, like, everything.

So you decide on email and then you follow everybody who talks about email, but I mean in smart ways. I don’t mean they took one person’s course and now they’re gonna teach the world on it, but some people can do that and it goes very, very well. They actually care and think about it. So go out there and do the leg work to find out who knows their shit. Usually, they’re not talking very loudly because they’re so busy working on the stuff.

So keep that in mind.

I don’t know what you would read because most of the books on email marketing. Does anybody have a good one? I found that they’re like garbage, like, like, hot garbage.

Jess is looking at her bookshelf.

There was that one that Ryan Dice wrote oh, oh, oh, oh, no offense.

That’s not to Ryan dice, but it was so fucking bad. It was so bad. It was so basic and like this isn’t going to help anybody do anything.

So yeah. Go out and find that. We added triggered email stuff to ten x emails because of this master of seasonal sales, the emails tracked there. All so good.

And then just, like, keep a good swipe. Practice everything. Do what you’re already doing. Estergrace when it comes to like auditing what people are, saying go teach because teaching helps you learn the thing too. Obviously teaching from the position that you’re in not.

I’m an expert, but hey, I’m learning all this really cool shit about this.

Go to certifications for ships and gigs with Clavio and intercom and all of those popular tools, the ones that your prospects are going to use first. Right? Obviously, if you’re gonna work with SAS or if your friend is gonna work with SAS or this person who’s newly out of college, then use the solutions that SaaS uses. If you’re gonna work with e commerce, Clay a no brainer, braise is good in both cases, but start by just like documenting, just like massively learning everything and then start practicing.

And you can practice on your own email list. You don’t have to have somebody else’s email list to son. You’ll want that, but you don’t have to start there. Jessica, is this on the same topic?

Building off of it a little bit out. It’s similar.

Okay. I apologize to anyone who does not care about this because it’s still about this though.

My oh, my win. This opening myself for judgment.

I committed to taking my dogs twice a week to doggy daycare so that I could just and I already feel better. It hasn’t even happened yet.

That’s awesome. I know we have a dog walker come by two days a week. Just to, like, just go wear them out a bit. Like, they need to relax so that we don’t have to do it. Yeah. Smart. Good.

So I guess mine’s very specific. So related to this email thing though, I I too one of the big services that I’d like to offer is you know, I don’t know, email list management, the retainer, everything you just discussed. But the unique angle, I believe, is my seasonal sales into that and of course a big part of that is sales emails. And so what I’m kind of wondering is right now with slashing out my offers and all that I’m looking at seasonal sales campaigns and all that as one major offer and then the email ongoing stuff. But does that make I guess I’m just looking for any.

What are your immediate thoughts when I tell you that, I guess?

Yeah. I think that the retainer easily in your case could be I’m here for all of your seasonal sales emails because these e commerce brands that we’re talking about are they live on a seasonal calendar. Right? So I’m sure you’ve experienced this where they’re like, it’s president’s day.

Here is a pair of boots. For freaking president’s day? Like, what does that matter? But it’s like it matters.

So that I would do that, but I would just say, like, I’ll be or right hand when it comes to all of these seasonal sales emails that you’re writing. The problem is that it’s not performance space in that case, right? Like because you’re not doing president’s day last year versus this year, necessarily, unless you do, unless it does turn into this ongoing thing and then you can say, but it won’t be optimization like optimizing and automation. Of course.

Yeah. Yeah. But I still think it’s great and in demand. Yeah.

Great. Thanks. Awesome. Abby.

I have two questions. Should I discuss one or can I?

Yeah. But you have to say your win first.

Oh, my win. As as not like a big one, but I pre sold twenty five copies of my book, so I’m happy with that.

That’s amazing.

Very good. Yeah. So my question, so I have an Evergreen webinar funnel running for my course, and I’ve been running out I’ve got. So now I have about two hundred people that have been through the funnel, and I’ve realized that I’ve no plan of, like, what to do with them, the ones that did buy.

Like, I’m sending out get my week my biweekly newsletter. They’re gonna get some nigh word emails now, but I don’t know whether I should be like, because I see other course creators invite people back into the funnel, but it kind of, like, it’s like they said the same emails that it kind of makes the whole thing feel a bit, like, fake because it’s, like, makes the urgency feel fake because it’s, like, a but I use deadline for it. Yeah. And so I’m yeah.

I I don’t know.

Like, I just don’t know what to be doing with those people.

Did you ask them why they didn’t move forward?

Yeah.

What was the reason?

Like price.

They’re most mostly just like or saying, yeah, the the timing’s not right. Yeah.

So that’s either true or it’s not true.

And that’s the thing. If it is true, then that means that your audience is wrong, and I wouldn’t bother trying with them again. If price is really the objection, and it it can actually, but some people do not have any money.

They wanna learn from you, but they they can’t afford it. And those are good people to get out of your brain so they’re good to not try to reengage necessarily. I know that can sound harsh. Like, I’ve told you twice in today’s session to cut your list down. And you’re like, that’s my list. I’ve worked at it. So I get it.

But I would strongly encourage you to not think about the people who can’t afford your solution.

So that doesn’t mean that that they’re truly that that’s really the objection. And maybe there’s another way that you but I don’t it’s like, well, I could put together a cheap or something. Do you really need to spend your time or resources on building something for people who can’t afford what you’ve got.

Well, I think I think they can’t I don’t think it’s like they can’t afford it. I think it’s more like they’ve already spent their budget that month or they’ve, like, enrolled in other courses recently.

So they’re like, oh, I can’t it’s more like a timing thing, which makes as I’m saying that I’m thinking, maybe then I should give them another opportunity to buy If it’s a timing thing.

Yeah.

So it’s the first thing I stand over.

Does that if it’s a timing thing though, then there is. Are definitely. You can re engage them. That’s what that automation that we just set up today is for, bring them back. Eventually, it might be the right time for them, engage them in other ways.

It it depends on how far you wanna go with it and how much opportunity you do think is there because there’s so many different ways you could go, right? I would recommend you read the book super consumers.

It’s got good tricks on, like, quick, like, but but it takes it takes resources. So it’s like, have an IRl together for some, and then people have to fly in. Right? Like, it but but there are good ideas in there. So check that out.

What is a customer worth to you? If they convert, what’s their value?

It’s only, like, five hundred dollars. Sorry.

And that’s five hundred after you and everybody on your team has been paid. Wow. No.

Not like yeah. Once I take out, like, the tech stack and stuff, like, probably about Well, it depends how many I’m selling. So let’s say, like, like, I think my final cost, like, a hundred and fifty to run.

So Okay.

So you’re making three fifty? Is that what I heard?

Yeah. But then on the sale after that would be five hundred.

Okay. So for the lifetime value is then more in the eight hundred realm, like, once you get them in, even if it costs to acquire them I’m I’m really just trying to understand. No. No.

So no.

My lifetime value for these is like five hundred, like, unless they’re gonna hire me later, which I haven’t seen happen yet. But the the idea is hope that they’ll start making some money and then be able to afford to hire me, but it’s two early days. Yeah. So let’s just say the lifetime value is five hundred.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

And do you have a webinar already or a workshop that sells them?

Yeah. I have the Evergreen webinar. Yeah. Then the problem is if they go through and don’t buy. It’s like, what do I do with them?

Yeah. I know. So if the timing is wrong, then the automation sequence is one way to get them back on board, right, that then the sixteen by twenty three thing. Yeah.

Other ways then are right? Just like leave them on your general list. I just for me, I’m like, don’t pay too much attention to them if they’ve got these objections that you really can control unless there is something you can do to where timing is the problem.

What can you do to get rid of that problem. So how are you going to make yourself available when the time is no longer a problem? Can you book with them? Like, can you hop on a call with them in some way so that you can better, like, place yourself in their calendar I’m just one, I wouldn’t worry about the pricing people.

Two, if timing is a thing and you don’t wanna put them back through an evergreen funnel, then you have to figure out how you’re gonna get in front of them at the right time. And the evergreen funnel is the way typically of course to go. If it’s not right for them because they’ve been through it already, then I would just throw them on your general list and keep nurturing them old school and See if you can do some cross channel stuff. Also, I mean, my concern is people can always it’s very rare for timing to be a real thing too unless they’re multiple decision makers.

But sounds like there’s probably one decision maker here. They just didn’t get off their butt and do it.

Yeah. I mean, I think I think, like, to be honest, the more I think about it, the more like the nine word emails is probably enough to just because if they just say, yeah, I still want, like, want to, then I can just say, oh, I can, you know, I’m happy to, like, honor the discount for them. Like Yeah. Totally.

Yeah. Okay. Sorry. After all. I know your training that you did initially. It was so good.

That’s good.

That’s good.

I did have one other quick question if that’s all. Alright?

With so my evergreen final that I would have been final, like, bills cost my feedback into it. So that’s, like, the kind of the the USPS.

And part of that is thank you page surveys.

I originally, so I started using your question, the what was going on in your life. I wanted to find my own. I experimented with others. No question is as good. So I’m using that. I am I’m, like, giving you credit. Like I’m saying, this is Friday.

We’ve purchased a good day.

The I’m like, should I really be because it is quite an important part. Should I really be having my own question if I wanna really be like an authority in this? But I can’t think of a better question. Like, you know, I’ve I’ve tested lots of things. Like, so, yeah, what do you do you think it’s It’s a legitimate concern, or should I just keep on being like this is Joe’s question?

I would just stick with the question, but that would make think the thank you page entirely. So, what we’ve done with our thank you page is we go back and forth. We have surveys sometimes like a thank you page survey, the one question.

That you’re talking about and other times it is just skip skip ahead and book a call with us. Right? So you get the ebook, you wanna learn how to make five thousand dollars a month. And so you land on this on the page, the confirmation page, and instead of getting the ebook right away, it’s like, Hey, do you wanna skip the line?

And like, we could just hop on a call and talk through this and that’s gonna be a sales call. Right? So thank you pages across the board. You can just embed your calendly so if you’re like I’m not sure.

So what I’m hearing is you want to change the question because of a thought leadership thing. For you.

Yeah.

Great with it. Whatever. But if if what we’re really tapping into is you kinda don’t wanna use that question for whatever reason. Whatever reason. Whatever the reason is.

I do. I do.

Okay. Well then, what I would say is go back and forth. Yeah.

For when you know, switch between, I’m going to collect data, and I’m going to allow people to book an appointment with But it is more because I’m teaching it because I’m saying because I’m because in my course, I say, like, set up a thank you page survey, and this is the question that I use that Joanna Weeb taught me. So it’s like, I am I like I mean, I guess I’m I don’t know if I’m, like, asking permission here or what, like Oh, no.

Claire and Gia teach this too. Like, it’s yeah. I talk about all the time because I’ve tested a billion different ways, and that’s It’s just the best life. Yeah. It’s just it’s just going to help you find those that voice of customer. So just use it.

Just use it. Yeah. I did I’m thinking, like, based on what you said, what I could do is teach kind of like different thank you pages you can use depending on what you want. So if you want to voice your customers that question, if you wanna find out how people are landing on your page, use like a different question.

Like, that kind of thing. If you want, like, one to ones, then book a call. So yeah. Okay.

Anyway, yeah. Sorry. I don’t wanna hog your time. Thank you.

Cool. Thanks, Abby. Naomi. Thanks for waiting. You gotta win?

Alright. What about the win? I don’t have one at the top of my mind.

You will post an instance later.

I interestingly enough. Oh, okay. I have one. Okay. Good. So I was working on a landing page, and I met with the, I met with the marketer, meaning the guy who runs the Google campaigns, And I found out that he’s running three campaigns, and the guy who runs the business told me that he’s only running one.

And so if you work on Google campaigns, you know that but you really need a new landing page for every campaign to make sure at the very least that it matches the keywords. If not also the intent, the length of the page, etcetera. So I sent an email saying, you know, you really should have a different landing page for this other campaign because the people searching for this have a slightly different mindset. And so I just added that to the bill. So that was an extra, extra sale there, and that was really easy.

So, yeah, so that’s the win.

I am pretty sure I’ve asked this before, but I haven’t gotten a great answer anywhere. I’m gonna ask it again because email came up.

For the vast majority of the companies I work with, they might have a newsletter, but the newsletter is very content focused. And if they’re running these very traditional b to b ad campaigns, which most companies still are, they’re promoting white papers. And if they’re doing content syndication, which I know, everyone hates. They’re still, like, promoting learning papers, and so they get all of these leads.

And a lot of times if somebody reaches out to them, like, okay. You could always, like, retarget them if you’re tracking properly. But if somebody reaches out to them by email, it’s really the SDR or the BDR stop. To to contact them, to start building that relationship, because a lot of these things are very relationships focused.

But they typically these BDRs and SDRs, if they have hundreds of leads coming in, and they’re also getting leads from trade shows they don’t and they also have like regular leads coming up signing up for a demo that they have to set up discovery calls with. They don’t have the time to contact all those people. And if they are contacting them, usually it’s a very generic email, or it’s like a email sequence that happens like two weeks after the lead already drops in the CRM. So I’ve brought up the idea having nurturing sequences, which are really very different from newsletters. Newsletters and nurturing sequences have very different goals, but the pushback that I always get is This feels too sales y. This is too impersonal.

We need people to we need our sales team to reach out to them personally but the sales team is not reaching out to them and they don’t have the time. But I get this feedback over and over again from very technical b to b products, and to some degree, there is some legitimacy to that because a lot of times the sales funnel looks very different whether it’s different decision makers in the buying, like, if it’s the champion versus the decision maker versus person holding the budget or his different solutions or whatever it is, it it would actually be difficult to write a nurturing sequence and to segment a list that effectively when you have when you’re not doing it as large of a scale. So, I’m gonna ask again. Do you have any thoughts on how email would be effective here? Because there definitely is a lot of opportunity.

Yeah.

I mean, and this is the thing. I haven’t when I’ve worked with very technical large companies selling into enterprises with multi threading with all of the bananas stuff that happens in large sales organizations. I mean, like people who There’s one who, moves you from your mainframe to mainframe in the cloud Like, people still have mainframes out there. And to get moved off your mainframe is like a multi million dollar project, but like business, banks, communication, like telecom companies are on mainframes in a lot of cases still.

So these are even people who no matter the size and the complexity of the project and everything, they’re still emailing. They’re still doing it. They reach out to me as they can you help us with these emails So I’m I guess I’m a little confused as to why why your these clients or prospects don’t want to use email and saying it’s sales y is only once they’ve seen a thing. So what’s stopping them from using email in the first place?

It’s not that they’re not using email. It’s that they’re using email either the the sales reps, like, the AEs are using email, and sending personal email to them, like nine word each.

Sorry. I mean, like, why aren’t they using the nurturing sequence that you mentioned? Like, what’s really getting in their way there?

I would say number one, being able to segment people, like, right, the the less information you ask for when you ask for a white paper, the more people are gonna convert. So Of course, you’re especially if it’s like LinkedIn. Right? Like, you ask for, like, automatic information and half of that is probably LinkedIn guessing. So, like, if you have such little information because you want to get those leads in, then what kind of how much can you segment that list? And if you can’t segment the list, can your emails really be specific enough to be effective?

Okay. So their hearing, I need to segment. That’s a lot of work. We’re not gonna do that upfront on the form because it’ll surprise conversions.

And that means that we go into this with this big dump of people that are just a generic dump of people to us. And if you want to come in, and send emails to them with segmentation, we can’t because it’s too much work. Is it work?

Is it the function?

It’s work that a person could do but work like if they went and looked to figure out who the hell that is on LinkedIn, but I’m not sure how easy it would do. It would be to do in HubSpot or whatever email tool you’re using.

Yeah. And like you can say, I guess, so if their objection to it, one of their objections or starting one that makes it a nonstarter for conversation is we don’t have segmentation. Then take segmentation out, don’t segment then. And I know you need it, what do you need it to be specific, but I’m snow company actually segments.

Like we’re talking about a best practice is to segment. The reality is lasting. Everybody blasts. And that’s like what we’re really dealing with out there because these aren’t smart marketers when it comes to email.

Right? So if we always start from a place of, I know hundred times more about email marketing than you do. I have empathy you don’t say that. How do you know that?

Right? I have empathy for you and the sadness of what you don’t yet know could happen for your business. So what’s my easiest way to get you to start down the path of what email could do for your business because a newsletter is already a form of nurturing.

You have the sales team that is waiting too late before they reach out. So a potentially warm lead has gone cold, and now you have to, like, heat them up again. Why would you wait on that? So if you can talk them through and really and understand like, why are you waiting on that?

Like, maybe there’s an easier soul. Maybe it’s just like, oh, we should just tell our reps sooner. But if it’s like, no, that two week window has to pass and you’re like, well, let’s do something about that two week window. When’s the last time you want to be nurtured when you’re ready for something.

So there’s gonna be people that you’re just playing missing out on. Right? Can we agree on that? And if they can’t agree on that, you’re never gonna get someone But if you they can agree that, yeah, there’s definitely people who reach out and are ready to start the conversation at least.

Are ready to open the sales conversation from day one, then all you need is to sell them on a series of opener emails to like get them in, get them to set an appointment with a rep, get them warmed up on all of this stuff, so that they’re more likely to show up when a rep reaches out in two weeks and says, hey, you specifically you. I know everything about you and let’s hop on a call. They’re already nurtured there. So to me, it sounds like they think it has to be really hard work.

If you make it clear that it’s easy work, and you’ve done this before, and you can totally do this with very little effort from them. And the result is when an SDR reaches out there’s a real lead there. I mean, even the SDRs would get on board with that, right, that they could have good warm leads.

But in terms of actually writing the email, like if you have a use case, let’s say you have a use case for marketing and you have a use case for for product or product marketing and you have a use case for sales and maybe like one other one other department. And on top of that, you have the decision maker, you have a champion and maybe the person involves the purse strings or like somebody else in upper management. Like, what would be your approach in writing nurturing emails to all of those different that’s a that’s a lot of people.

It’s a lot of people.

What do you know about them? Do you know what white paper they downloaded? Or do they just get dumped into a single list?

No. You probably would know what white paper. I mean, it was the Right.

So let me start. And start there. Right? Like, as simple as are you still looking for a subject of white paper?

And then that’s like a way for them to at least hit apply to the email and go, yeah, remind me what that was, and then the SDR has a warm, like, contact that they can do something with. So if you’re able to do that with a single email and then if it doesn’t work, x period of time passes, and something else about the white paper, Hey, did you see this like complimentary video that supports what’s on page three? Go to page three and here’s the video or something. Right?

Like all we’re really doing is using email. If if there is an SDR, email’s job is to either get them to start a conversation or to move towards setting an appointment and then showing up for the appointment. So show up sequences and all those kinds of things that go along with that. So there’s already quite a things you can sell into a sales team.

But yeah, that’s I mean, it doesn’t have to be a long email. It can be a short one that’s just tapping into the thing that they showed interest in. No one reads a white paper. So you can just start like engaging them on, hey, do you wanna skip the line and like instead of reading the white paper, we could just talk about what you’re going through, and that’s an email that you can send. Yeah.

So so because these kind of short emails I would associate, like, those are the kind of emails that I typically assume SDR’s should send or BDRs are are supposed to be sending good, you know, the type the kind where they, like, make a typo in the subject line on purpose. So you would just automate those.

Yeah.

I mean, you can’t it depends on what you’re solving. If you’re typically solving for that two week gap, then, yeah, all you’re doing is Instead of nothing, you’re sending emails that look like an SDR sent them. That’s it. You’re just scheduling those up and that’s easy peasy. If you’re solving for something else, then you might need a different solution. But in this case, yeah.

I don’t think it has to be more complicated than that. It hasn’t been. You charged like it is, but it’s not actually more complicated than you knowing to send those emails that are about x and that respect the reader’s time and just try to get them into a conversation with an SDR.

So you wouldn’t provide more of something more engaging, something a little bit longer, more marketing oriented, you would stick with the more sales short and quick approach?

It I would only go to marketing messaging if your client is using SQLs and MQs. Like, if they’re measuring the quality of the lead. If a a certain number of ignores, reduces them down to more getting qualified lead instead of a sales qualified lead, once they’re no longer sales qualified. Okay.

But it really comes down to sales qualified and more qualified. If they’re marketing qualified lead, they get marketing emails, and that’s to get them back to a place of showing interest again and then if they’re sales qualified, they get sales emails. That’s it. Does that make sense?

Yes. I mean, I’m doing a dirty word. It’s like a four letter word in twenty twenty four.

And q l and SQL?

Oh, yeah. Everyone hates on q l’s. And q l’s are out. No one’s measuring on q l’s anymore.

Not in my world.

That’s for sure.

Or or not.

Yeah. Maybe.

For people who come talking to us. So but whatever the case is, whatever they’re calling it, there is a point at which marketing no longer is qualified to be the one talking exclusively them, whatever you wanna call it. But there’s lead scoring of some kind going on. Anybody with the sales team has lead scoring going on. If the lead is ready to be sold to, then they can have short quick emails that are there to get you to open a conversation.

If not, Then there’s the question of do we do a marketing message, like that’s a bit longer and softer more remote that kind of thing. What else do we do there? Yeah.

Okay. Interesting.

Yeah. That’s yeah. That’s what we’re seeing.

Cool. Cool.

Alright.

Anybody else? Now that my dogs have plumbed There’s a moment of peace in the house.

I’ve got a question.

Motion.

Wait.

So my win is kind of related to my question. I have a cousin who, works at a a unicorn startup.

As, head of product design, but he’s also, sort of assisting the CEO.

And He was telling me about the the internal state, which is like kind of crazy that their marketing team is like two two, graduates from from Uni.

Absent.

And the co founder who’s now gone was like a sales crazy dude who, kind of wanted to shut down marketing and just have sales.

And, yeah, it was, a shit show, apparently. So he’s out and things are better. And, he was, anyway, and he was telling me about the problems. And, obviously, I, as casually as possible, mentioned that I could If I had some time, maybe I have a glance at the website and just do a quick, a quick run through. So I did that. I sent it to him and he ended up, circulating it internally in, like, thirty people saw it, and then I guess they changed pretty much everything on their homepage. It was tons better.

Then nothing really came of it, but two weeks or a week ago, my cousin reached out and basically said, might have some work. Can we help in a call? So we did, and he needs three landing pages, homepage, potentially like a, a a voice guide and, like, I mean, honestly, like, there’s everything here. I mean, email alone.

But so, I don’t know, I sent a proposal over with some really, big scary numbers in it for me.

And, he forwarded it over to the CEO because they basically said he basically said, they need numbers before they could bring in the CEO.

So So I just recorded a Loom and and, and then decided to include, I’m sorry for anyone. This won’t make sense to some people, but the the narrative selling thing So I I pitched I kind of not pitched it, but, kind of infused it throughout the whole thing.

Just as casually as possible. And so I think it’s gonna I don’t know, but my my cousin said he he he loved it and forwarded it over to the CEO. So I’m waiting to hear back. And, that’s kind of the weird.

It’s just like to get the opportunity is great. And kinda crazy. But Love it. The the question is, do you because obviously, I think there’s really good opportunity here to, to help them because probably everything is I mean, their homepage before was, like, crazy bad.

So I think there’s just a massive opportunity here to to get some good numbers maybe. And then, obviously, make lots and lots and lots of content. So, I also was just wondering is, is there any what advice? Just broadly speaking.

What advice would you have for me in this situation? Thanks.

Okay. Advice for which part, like, for getting it closed?

Yeah. For just, like, bulk. If we hop on a call, I’m gonna, yes, but maybe as well just kind of I was thinking more broadly how to maximize, the opportunity for Of course.

Yeah. They’re based in the UK.

Yeah, Irish thumb.

Oh, they’re Irish? Okay. Oh.

Yeah.

Do I know who they are, probably?

Maybe.

I mean, Let us know who they are?

Yeah. I I mean, I could say yeah. Sure. It’s, Wayflyer, e commerce funding.

Oh, no. Okay. Oh, that’s cool. I thought it was somebody else, but that’s cool.

Okay. Awesome. So The reason I asked if they’re in the UK, is simply or not in America is really what it comes down to, is the ways of selling into different cultures.

So if you were over here, I would have recommended a, something slightly more, assertive on on it on the subjects. Just more of, like, let’s get, like, let’s do this thing kind of thing.

So it’s it’s tough because take what I say with a green really what I’m just gonna say. Like, try to modify it and apply it for what you know about your market, and the people that you’re serving there and how they react. To selling, which is really serving, but it’s called selling. Okay. Fine.

Yeah, because already I’m Did you find out what their budget is before you voted?

No. But I told but I had a quick call with my cousin and I said, I I pointed some rough numbers, and he was like, yep. That all sounds fine. So then I, maybe inflated them a little.

Has he ever signed off on a project like this Yeah.

Yeah.

He’s I think he’s he’s fallen into a kind of, second in command sort of thing to the to the CEO because he’s this guy, I don’t know, he sounds like he needs help. But So so, yes, he’s he’s kind of overseeing a bunch of stuff that probably isn’t in his role, typically.

Okay. So he is a good person to say this is the right price?

Yes. Or at least this is the right price.

Okay. So it’s gone. It’s been handed up to the CEO. When did that happen?

On Friday. I I think he’s seen it now. He also saw the tear down, which was I didn’t intend for anyone else to see, but my cousin size four of it and was it all. So they’re gonna know they’re gonna kind of look, and I also did quite a, like, exhaustive head, just because I kind of wanted to, obviously, show off a bit. Yeah.

So yeah. So he’s seeing that he’s maybe sitting on it now, the proposal.

So yeah.

Cool. So I mean obviously early on it would have been better not to do free work for them because now you’ve slightly devalued it. It doesn’t mean that that’s always true because people hire people on spec work all the time. Like agencies fight against each other on spec. So it happens. It’s just I would try not to do that in the future. See what happens if next time you charge instead of giving your cousin something.

See what happens if you I really was just, expecting him to just look at it and be like, cool.

I need to hire you. But instead it got he sent he sent it around. So that was not intended.

Cool. Yeah.

Either way, what they take out of free, they’ll still circulate it if they love it. So, there’s just that. I would just keep that in mind for everybody. Right?

Try not to do free anything unless you have such a strong reason to believe that that’s the only way forward. And I would imagine with your cousin, there was another way forward. I know Natitism can feel like tricky. Like, how do I get a credit card?

But yeah, so going forward, so you’ve shown internally that like you’ve proven to people that you offer a value. Don’t know if they knew your name don’t know, like, the thing that got shared around, did it have your name attached to it, or did they just know there was this smart person who sent this around?

This is the latter, I guess.

Okay. So there was a smart person who sent this around. Not this is Johnson spink. This is his work.

No. Well, no. No. Probably just this is Juts. Someone Jut has I don’t actually know how he presents it.

Yeah. It would just be yeah. And so even if you do send around, like, a loo or something again, just make sure you, in some way, brand it so it’s clear.

David, I mean, everything was branded with my my logo.

I finished on the end with my LinkedIn, my website, all of the the email and everything.

That’s what I’m wondering because obviously the CEO makes a decision, but makes a decision that is influenced by people around. Often on their own. Right? But they’re still gonna be if someone’s like, oh, that was so cool.

We’re still winning from what Johnson sent us. Like, when are we bringing this guy in? That’s obviously what you’re looking for. Right?

So as long as you’re He did actually say that everyone, talked about it for a bunch.

For a while. So I think it had an impact.

Okay.

So I think I I might my so I guess my my so I I think I know where your my assumption is I’m coming in there.

As an authority, like, to some degree?

My question with all of this understood is how do you, like, I I’m I’m not I don’t have visibility into it. So what is the gap that we need to close? Between the CEO looking at that and you getting on a call with the CEO?

Well, I don’t know if there’s anything, now because the the things off, he’s looking at it. And as far as I know, it’s it’s on it’s on trajectory, you know.

So really more, it’s about what happens when we when he says, okay. Let’s let’s talk to this guy. And how do I make sure that that’s, that’s that’s the last. That’s the only la the the last touch point.

Is it is the proposal high enough that it does require a call or is it something where the CEO will just sign off on it. Do you think based on conversations with your with your cousin, etcetera?

I think he’ll, yeah. I mean, I think he can sign off on it.

But it yeah. I think I I don’t imagine you’d have to consult anyone or not.

With me.

You mean with me? Yeah.

No. Maybe not. No. No. You could do that without hopping on a call. And I did say, at the end, I was like, we can hop on a call, and we can talk more about this.

Or if you just wanna look in my time because this is a big project, you can I’ll send over a statement at work, and you’ve got seventy two hours too. To sign that.

Okay. So did you already give him that, or would you later save by seventy two hours spent? Debbie have a deadline No. No.

No. I he has an option now between shoot choosing between statement of work straight away and signing it, locking in by time, or hopping on a call first?

Is there a deadline? What does he know about when he has to make this decision?

No. It is not a deadline.

K.

Cool.

Tricky because he’s a CEO, he’s busy, unless he’s prioritizing this, the team already made some changes based on it. Right? So he’s already got some hopefully winning copy and maybe less urgency around it. So what I would do if I were you is try to find a way to make sure a fire is lit under his butt. And now I know it’s like, well, it’s too late to put a deadline in there.

But What can you do going forward? Make sure you do have that. Like, hey, I can talk to you on Monday or Tuesday.

After that, if we can’t lock this in, it’s gonna be not until June make it really uncomfortable. And then if he still doesn’t move on it, it was a hard sell anyway.

So just keep that in mind that failure is okay.

Just put those deadlines in there for him. He needs to feel the pressure to move on this, and that’s why I asked what the team is the team pushing him. Your cousin is gonna have a hard time because of mephitin them. These might feel a little bit weird about it.

Right? So it doesn’t mean he will, but it might be like, oh, I can’t push too hard. So you need like a groundswell. You need people internally.

What can you do? Do you follow any of them on LinkedIn? Is there anything you can do to like seed conversation with the people who are going to influence the CEO moving on it. If by end of day tomorrow you haven’t heard from the CEO, what can you do with those people who fell in love with your ideas?

I would reach I would find a way to like what they say on LinkedIn or just like reach out to them and go like, Hey, were you one of the people who saw what I sent around or something? Right? But just started start a conversation there to try to get more people working on your behalf.

That’s what I would do at least if there’s if a deadline passes, it would also follow-up.

Were you directly connected with the CEO?

No.

Next time. Yeah. It’s I mean, or can you reach out on LinkedIn?

Does I don’t know culturally if that’s, like, weird to do it, like, in your Probably probably a little probably a little weird.

It is something that that might help this whole thing was kind of like, I need numbers before I can, like, bring him into this conversation kind of thing. So it was kind of a, gay gay keeper position, if I would like.

So I guess So you didn’t get to do a lot of the things that we want to do when we’re selling into.

No. And I didn’t I mean, I didn’t wanna he he just wanted numbers. So I was like, I sweated it for a day.

I was like, oh, it’s just not that first.

Yeah. I’m sorry. I mean, but I I think that it I I did at least. I mean, I, you know, I pointed out the the the the problems. And I and I stated, I mean, several different ways, but several times that they’re losing revenue. Like, kind of as we speak. Like, revenue is being a lot potentially, like, a lot of revenue.

And and this is a and that’s which I think is more is the the the the growing sense in the company. So I think it’s reflecting what is happening internally at least.

Naomi?

Could I, yeah, could I potentially step in? I, recently did a project, helping a startup rewrite a lot of their web copy because they had developed, like, a new it introduced AI so they needed new AI messaging.

And they broke it down into several different batches. So they started with, like, the main plan pages, the home page.

And or the main product pages, the homepage, and the plans page, and then they had broken it down into other areas of the website that, like, would be nice to update, but not critical. Could you start with, like, the pages that will bring the biggest uplift and the fastest quick win, make sure to go into Google Analytics, measure their conversion rate, measure time on page, all of those good metrics. And then when you’re done, show them how much it improved, and then it’ll be much easier for them to go on to the other pages because, like, when it comes to website copy, there are some mailer elements besides you. Right? Because you have to have the designer. You’re going to change the out the layout of the page, and you’re gonna have to have the developer, and it’s gonna be a huge headache for them. So if you can sort of reduce the scope of that project, you might be able to get in and and once they see how great the project is, it might be easier to continue.

Yeah. That’s that’s good advice. I I did, you know, I explained the price. I gave them a price per landing page and a price per home page.

So I quoted that together as a bundle, and I, you know, I I did the whole, being able to I reduced the scope and I reduced the cost. So, they’ve got that as an option. If they want to pick just one page here, I mean, that’s, that’s, I think that’s pretty straightforward.

Like, leap for them, but I didn’t mention it. I mean, I wouldn’t, I guess, I wouldn’t want to. But Yeah. I want them to buy. I want them to buy the whole picture.

Yeah. And every once that wins quickly though. Right? Yeah. It’s it’s a very good point about getting that win quickly. It will get by in. I know we’re at the end of our time for those you have to leave.

Talk to the CEO, everybody who’s still here.

Pop on call with the CEO, don’t they want numbers? Oh, just tell me what it costs. If they’re a CEO, they are used to being on a lot of calls. They’re used to prioritizing the right things if they care about money, which they do because their CEO, they want to be on a call.

They’re used to it. They’re not scared marketing managers who don’t know what to do with their time, they know. So you don’t your response if you get shut down, you will only get better at having them like actually hear you and say yes. So I’m saying like, no, let’s hop on a call.

I’d love chat with you. I wanna meet the person who built this school company. I wanna talk to you about what I can do for you and I wanna make sure what I have in mind aligns with what you have in mind. You’ve got the vision for this.

So get on the call. Do what it takes don’t let your cousin say, oh, no. I’ll just do this. Like, no, no, man.

Like, I can really help here. So get me on that call. Trust me. I will make you look good.

And that’s it. Then you show up on the call. You make the cousin look like a freaking genius for being related to you and knowing to bring you in, and the CEO gets to talk with you. And that’s good.

If you didn’t, just don’t worry about the things that you might be worried about, hop on a call you’ll close the CEO on the call if only because you had the freaking guts to say, no, I really wanna hop on a call you. Like that goes a long way. CEO’s wanna solve problems and they want it done yesterday.

So don’t be afraid of them.

Alright. Yeah. Thank you, Jared. Thanks.

To get on that call. Yeah. Good luck.

Thank you. Thanks.

Awesome. Cool. I know we’re at the end of our time, Esther Grace. Do you have a quick question?

Yes, please. If you don’t mind.

Sure. Let’s do it.

Okay. So it’s Sorry?

Nope. I was just saying to everybody else if you have to go. It’s not weird.

So I I have a lead or I had a lead was just like the perfect client.

They have a massive list. They’re not doing anything with email. They were very responsive. Like, they just wanted to hand everything off to me the expert to handle it for them.

We went through the proposal process. They agreed to the contract. They agreed to everything. And then and that was when I shared my win in the channel.

And after I sent over the contract and the invoice, they did reply for, like, a week. I followed up, didn’t hear anything, and then they sent me an email saying, they’re not comfortable with me being international, like living abroad.

So they would prefer if we worked on a smaller project to build the relationship first. So I offered them a smaller project included, like, a hundred and one different ways to make things easier for them, and then they just haven’t replied. I did the nine word email follow-up last week. No reply, no response, nothing, and I just feel so bad.

Yeah. Let’s back up then, to a few things. So out of the gate, Where did they think you were? Like, is that a legit concern?

Or yeah.

So right now I’m in Nigeria. I moved from the US, in December last year. I told them this on a call when we were talking and they’re like, oh, where are you based? And I’ve talked about how is how I moved to Nigeria, and they were like, oh, cool. That was it. But I don’t know where this came.

It’s a little tricky. Right? Like what a client tells you I mean, that that teaches you, like, tells you a bunch of things about them, but also about the reality of the world and fears of I don’t know. Whatever countries, I don’t know anything about what happens there.

Right? So There’s times when you I mean, I think that’s why some people just have US mailing addresses easiest thing when I worked for conversion rate experts. They had a San Francisco office and a New York office. They didn’t have office in San Francisco or New York, they have mailing.

They had a post office box there. So just like have a US location if only to look international.

So consider that if it’s an objection that you’ll ever have to come up against in the future, you know who you are We always have to think about who is trying to hire us and how afraid people are of making the wrong call when it comes to spending money. So consider that US based location on the bottom of your website along with it.

And that’s it. You can be on vacation abroad right now. If it’s anything weird, just I wouldn’t tell somebody or I’m from Canada if I thought it was gonna be weird for them. When the truth comes out about how horrible Canadians really are, then no one will wanna hire me. So, there’s that to consider. But Two. How did you follow-up with them?

So I followed up when the when I got the response, I followed with, an email detailing, like, what the smaller project could include, and then did some more, like, sales eat things in there, like, some tactics how it’s good for them.

And then I also added it like PS if they wanted to hop on call to chat through those details.

And then after that one, a couple of days later, I think a week later, then I followed up with the nine word email. So that was last week.

Are you using the word follow-up?

No. Just checking. Yeah.

Good. It’s always worth checking in to make that’s not happening.

Yeah, I mean, sometimes you lose, I don’t think that had to happen here. I think you might be dealing with people who got shy about the whole thing, and that sometimes happens. That doesn’t mean that that’s absolutely true either, but be, hey, you’re in a place we didn’t know you’re in. To me is like, it’s weird.

What’s going on there? There’s also, like, people get excited. Now you quoted them on that first call where they got excited. You told them what you charged.

Right?

So that wasn’t the first call. So I first, Okay.

So the first call, I Oh, sorry, Esther Grace.

Just to be clear, I also needed some time. Before you gave them the proposal or the amount, they knew the price.

No. They did not. That’s that’s it.

That’s it. And then there are I mean, I think it’s one thing they didn’t know the price so you can’t watch proposal boot camp. Watch it and watch it again. If it’s not like clicking, you have got to make sure that the client knows what your fees are, the vicinity of them.

They don’t have to have the exact quote, but it’s an actual waste of time for you. And look what it does. Now you feel dejected. Now you feel like, oh, Greg.

I lost them. You didn’t. You’re too expensive for them. That’s okay to be too expensive for them.

You’re going to be too expensive for a lot of people along the way.

So but you have to bring up your price or it’s not like it’s not a real thing. You’re going to have to bring it up eventually.

You gotta bring it up before they see it on a proposal or an estimate or in writing. You bring it up talking with them. So a project like this, generally, I mean, the last project I did with, like, this was, I think it came in around ninety five hundred, give or take, How does that sit with your budget? And then they’re like, oh, ninety five. And you can see because you’re on Zoom together.

You can see. Their reaction. So they’re like, oh, okay. Well, it’s more than we thought.

And you can see how crazy you’ve scared they are of how much more than they thought it is or if they’re like, Okay. You know, and, obviously, there’s reactions. Right? And there’s nuances.

That’s why you all wanna be on camera. So you can watch and you control your expression too because this is game face.

But you gotta you gotta do that. Never send a proposal over even a bullet point proposal in an email, don’t do anything until you have spoken about what it costs.

Yeah. So I just wanted to mention. So the structure I used was a little different since it was my first, pitch for this particular offer. I decided to do, like, a hundred percent performance basis.

So on the first call, so since this email, I was like, okay, we’ll only do performance just because I wanted I had never done anything like that before. I was like, let me just test it out with this potential client. So that was what I told them on the first call that it’ll be performance based. So we’ll have another call to talk through, like, the strategy for them.

So I did, like, a free audit just because I know I’m not supposed to do free audits, but just because it was I want you to watch this replay back, and you can pick out all of the things that I don’t need say to you right now.

Esther grace, don’t make life so hard for yourself.

Charge projects out of the gate. Once you have a bunch of email experience under your belt, then you can build a performance based email marketing agency, and you can do a bad ass job a bit. But to get there, you need to first have a bunch of experience.

It’s good to have ambition. I freaking love the ambition.

But you’re shooting yourself in the foot, hundred percent by a bunch of the things that you did that are like, well, I’m gonna go out and try it on my own. That’s what happens. You’re guessing, and you’re like short you’re trying to shortcut things. Just do it the easy way.

Just make it a proposal for a project, the thing that they said they wanted, tell them it’s gonna cost this much. Here’s when it starts. Here’s when it ends Here’s what you’ll know by the end if it performed well. If you want from that point on to have me continue to optimize it, we can pass that bridge when we get there.

Go into every call with an oh hell’s no. Right? Just like we talk about a proposal boot camp. It starts with no. No. I can’t do this How can I make the project smaller for you? What?

Your time is more valuable and when you make these modifications for people, you’re saying got nothing but time. And if you have nothing but time, that means nobody’s hiring you. And so I don’t have to hire you either.

Play hard to get.

Be hard to get. This is all a fucking game all the time. Be hard to get. Make them want to hire you.

Be open and honest about what you’re charging so that they can actually opt in and say, yes, I do want this from you. How soon can we get started. And don’t worry about giving things away for free. You don’t actually have to with real businesses.

You don’t have to give things away for free.

Mister Grace.

You gotta make this up to us. You gotta find a way to make sure that you don’t put our hearts through this again.

Just follow, go watch proposal boot camp. Hang out in ten accepting you still and then freelance some schools lack. As well as here, right? But it’s critical that you don’t just make up the rules. It’s not gonna work. It might work but man the bloodshed along the way. It’s just not worth it.

Keep it simple. Alright y’all. Thanks everybody for staying on and asking questions.

Yeah. So we’ll see you in Slack. We have, of course, another session on Thursday.

Go set up your sixteen by twenty three automation. If you didn’t finish it today, that’s fair, but make sure you do it.

And good luck with all of your and projects and things that you’re working on, and we’ll see you in slot.

Cool. Thanks for all.

Bye. Have a good day.