Tag: growth
Rapid Fire CRO Tricks
Rapid Fire CRO Tricks
Transcript
So, what we are gonna talk about today is we’re wrapping up this month on live or sorry, on, optimizing. Basically, trying to get more money out of the place where places where cash changes hands and cash doesn’t have to mean cash. It can also mean email addresses, which are Oh. Form of currency.
So the past couple weeks, we have talked about a variety of things in queue including recently on curiosity clicks. So today, I wanted to walk through some of the stuff that rose to the surface for me early on when I was, working at conversion rate experts, as, one of their CROs, at the time.
And that is did I know, Abby, you got to read Making Websites when Cody, did you get a chance to read that book?
Book of the Month?
I yeah. I’ve read it. Okay. Good. Cool. Okay.
Excellent.
Nice. Wonderful.
Good. So then you’re gonna be familiar with some of the things that we’re talking about here because you’ll have seen something similar to it or, in some cases, identical.
It was written, of course, by the founders of conversion rate experts. And so, yeah, there’s gonna be overlap. Of course. Alright.
Oh, Katie just joined. Perfect. Okay. So you should be seeing my screen. Yes. Indeed. We’re talking rapid fire.
So just right now, what are some really, like, quick CRO conversion optimization tricks that you can jump into when it’s time to do certain things that we typically have to do? So not everybody is working on a website overall, but some people watching this are, and a really very simple way, to make your site convert better in general is to add a phone number even if it’s for a company that doesn’t work, doesn’t seem natural that there needs to be a phone number like a course business.
Our business. What are you doing with a phone number on the page? But if it’s for returning visitors, that’s usually a signal of wanting something from the brand that maybe a person on the phone could help with. It might not get used that often, the phone number itself, but, it’s a driver of trust as like a big part of are these people legit, especially for a smaller brand, more niche brand, unlike IBM. And even IBM puts their phone number on there.
You wanna add reasons to believe near the global nav that’s really, really old school, but it’s still, like, eyes go toward where the global nav is. And when we’re optimizing for certain things, it’s really just like make sure they can see it as a starting point. So if you’ve got reasons to believe, like, free shipping, twenty four hour blank, quick delivery, money back guarantee, those sorts of things. If you have a global nav or if you you just wanna put it if you don’t have a global nav, it’s a landing page, but you just wanna make sure that people are seeing those key reasons to believe, then it’s really common to put them up at the top of the page, f pattern stuff when it comes to how people read.
This is a newer one, AI supported live sales chat. Obviously, sales chat has been a big deal on ecommerce sites in particular for ages, and then higher ticket service sites tend to see sales chat perform pretty well. So everybody in the room would be wise to consider a way to get some form of sales chat on their site. If people are already coming to your site, as we all know, nobody’s coming there just because it’s they’re bored and they have nothing better to do.
They probably need something from you and can sales chat help with that. And, again, if it’s AI supported, although that can be garbage and can require a lot of work on your side, if there’s a way to do it to start the conversation, if only to lead to a point of, saying, hey. Yes. Contact us.
Cool. At least you’ve nurtured them toward that contact.
Try to rethink. And this is for your clients, but also for you. Try to rethink the idea of sign up for my newsletter. I know we have a sign up for our newsletter thing at the bottom of our website.
But there are better, smarter ways, especially if you’re working with a younger brand or you’re doing this for your younger brand is something better than a newsletter. So what this the fifth point here that we’re talking about, fourth point, sorry, is really just, like, can you optimize that newsletter offer? And if you don’t have a reason for people to sign up for your quote, unquote newsletter, what else can you give them to sign up for to get access to? So Brian Dean, for the longest time, back when he was still running Backlinko, he had just just in the hero section. You couldn’t miss it. You had to enter your email address basically to enter the site.
And he grew like a six hundred thousand person email list, which was really great for getting people to keep sharing his content, which allowed him to sell to, SEMrush, for a nice healthy amount given that it was a content site.
So really think about if you already have resources, maybe there’s a way you can gate those and drive people to, give you their email address.
And then, of course, third party social proof is typically stronger than not third party social proof. So stronger than a testimonial that you’ve gathered or case study you put together.
I’m not gonna dig too deeply into any of these. I do want you to go over them, of course, if you haven’t already. So I but I also don’t want to gloss over them in case they need a little more color to make sense of them for those who are watching the replay and going on brand new to CRO.
What do you mean with these tricks?
So let’s talk about closer pages briefly. Now by closer page, I mean, either the pricing page. Basically, we’re at most aware slash most aware with high intent even if they’re probably with high intent if it’s a return visitor to a pricing page. So return visitors to pricing pages are a huge opportunity.
And, honestly, when we look through a lot of these, there’s, like, you could build your whole business. Not that anybody here should. You already have your own offers in place, but you could really build your business around.
I work exclusively on optimizing websites for returning visitors.
That is a massive opportunity, and I don’t know anybody who’s doing it. It’s just I that’s just not a thing. So there’s just there’s a lot of room out there to be an expert in the narrow thing that businesses need. Because we’ll see returning visitors a lot, across the various things that we do because there are better opportunity than a new visitor.
So we could rename the tiers or buckets for pricing, make sure you deoptimize the worst tier. So the worst tier I put in quotation marks because it’s not enterprise. It’s gonna be the worst tier for the business. Which one doesn’t the business want to, sell the most of? Now typically, people come in and when they’re just putting a pricing page together and I am big on pricing pages. I could talk all day about this one note, so I’ll try to keep it tight.
But when people work on pricing pages, they typically are not thinking how do we optimize this for conversion rate optimization. Rather, they’re thinking how do we get this thing out there in a way that looks right for the end user which is good, but and they’re also like, well, users just wanna try. So u x, the u x department typically runs your pricing page and that is a massive miss, but that’s just how a lot of online brands are. It’s just how it is.
We just live with it and that’s true even in the world of course creators. They’re still taking their recommendations. They might not have UX actually on their team, making these calls. But most of the designers for your clients that you might have in, like, the coaching space, those designers are trained by other organizations that are using UX departments to architect their site, and they’re rarely skilled in persuasion architecture.
So most of us are learning pricing pages and pages, like, on ecommerce sites, a checkout page, which is very difficult to optimize because most of them are made directly inside Shopify anyway or Shopify Plus, which is more customizable but more expensive.
But we don’t have the right people leading pricing. So if you can come in and help out on the pricing page, that’s glorious, and that is, of course, a closer page. Other closer pages are lead gen pages for anything. Again, if you have this email gated elite resource access, try not to leave that to chance. If you’re going to actually get people to sign up for the thing, spend a little word a few words getting them to, to do the thing successfully.
Rename tiers and buckets for pricing I mentioned with deoptimizing the worst tier. Make sure it’s the worst tier for the business. Don’t worry. You’ll figure it out for the customer, definitely. But but make sure that worst tier the tier of the business doesn’t want to sell, make sure it doesn’t look better than the others, and that can often just be renaming it from free or essentials to something that is not as desirable.
If you can influence your client, implement payment plan solutions, if they’re in the United States and they charge in US dollars, then outside of in the case, I believe of, if they’re b two b, it can be tricky. But if they’re b two c in the US and they’re not using Klarna or something like that, it’s really like they have to turn it on in Stripe. You don’t even have to go through application processes for this stuff anymore, which is night and day to where merchant services used to be.
Adding in really simple things, PayPal goes a long way and larger brands aren’t using it. So if you can get your client to use PayPal, that’s great. Anybody who has mobile buyers and isn’t using Apple Pay or Google Pay, out to lunch. You just gotta get them to do these things and there’s no two ways around it. Talk to the people who make these calls and make sure that they’re on there. And if they are on there, cool.
Flesh out the guarantee. That’s a really obvious one and we rarely flesh it out on sales pages or closer pages. So really help people, like, get the nuance of a guarantee so that they have zero concern that they’re gonna get into this and something’s gonna go wrong and they’re screwed. It doesn’t mean that they’ll now have, like, a playbook for how to take advantage of you, although the random people of the world will still do that.
But the rest of the world, the good buyers out there are just like, okay. Cool. If things go wrong, I’m set. Not, okay.
Cool. How do I scam you? That’s less likely to be the most common use case.
And then reordering tiers is, again, another really good one. I’m not gonna get too much into more of the pricing stuff.
Getting more money, period.
That’s all your clients want.
Just to be really clear, all they want is more money and they don’t typically care how you get there.
So what are some things that you can do?
There’s also back does anybody know the brand FlowJo?
FlowJo, they do these boxes. And Tiffany De Silva, is a friend. She was the head of CRO at Shopify in its earliest years.
And so as the head of CRO there, she then left. She had, like, a a list, like, her her best tactics that she would use for optimizing Shopify site and then rolling some of those optimizations out to the templates that Shopify users would come along and install. So what Shopify learns gets sent down to what these templates were how these templates were built.
She left Shopify, survived it, left Shopify, and, put together a box of cards for conversion rate optimization, originally called FlowJo.
And now she’s transitioned those boxes to be about, like, the couple’s bucket list and stuff like that, because it’s more fun for her. But you can still get I still actually have a bunch of boxes I bought, which like a box of cards that’s just filled with ideas. Like, what could I do on these in these different stages of the customer journey, etcetera. So if you can find a FlowJo box out there, then that is a really useful addition to everything we’re talking about.
Because when it comes to getting more money period, you cannot have too many tricks to pull on. So what can you do? Really quick ones, sell more seats with decreasing pricing, breach seat added. So, basically, what is a reward for getting more people in?
Some of these are technically challenging slash impossible. So your client can’t do it, but if you can still arrive on the scene saying, can we try this? How might we try this? That can encourage at least your client to understand that you are looking out for how they can get more money, period.
Don’t believe that their existing team is looking out for how to get more money, period. That’s rarely the case with in house team members. They’re typically not empowered to. There’s all sorts of politics going on.
It’s easier just to, like, kinda stay quiet and wait for leadership to tell you what to do. But if you can come in and help people get on board with some new ideas, you’re probably going to retain them a lot longer. You can add in an expensive gift of purchase today. I know I’ve mentioned this before.
I don’t know if I’ve mentioned it in Coffee School Pro, but I had a big entertainment brand, who, you’re not allowed to talk about them, but it’s big brand. And they were trying to get more people to sign up for something. I forget what it was. And they tested one year the sign up.
The prize was, like, you could win an all expenses paid trip for two to their head space, like, the key place where their team plays.
So it was, like, a ten thousand dollar prize to sign up, and they got really good sign ups. The next year, their prize was a ball cap.
So instead of a ten thousand dollar prize, it was something out of their gift shop and, they got the same number of sign ups with the ball cap. Not more, but the same number. So when your clients when you’re talking to your clients about, okay, well, we might be able to get more people off the fence. Again, incremental growth adds up across the different stages of the funnel. So if you get more people in ten percent more upfront, that means every other optimization down funnel downstream is also going to be more impactful. And then if you can just keep raising the number of people coming in to otherwise optimize parts of the funnel, everything gets wider, which is our goal with CRO.
So if you’re like, hey. We need to get more people on your list.
Well, we don’t wanna give away a big prize naturally, but what if you gave away every month someone some lucky winner gets a ball cap. It doesn’t have to go further than that, and it can be a really good experiment to get more people in more money in.
Obviously, things like creating custom high ticket offers, people in this exact room specialize in that, using VOC to develop no cost of business upsells and add ons. And that’s basically, again, like, can you what can you upsell?
I told a couple of you last week, those who are still around, that I had a really good talk with Brian from SamCart about some of those upsells and add ons that they use. I actually just experienced this with, oh, I forget the name, with a service provider.
Shit.
And when you check out, they just add on little services that they’re basically already doing. But if you can break them out and add a hundred bucks to add that thing on, I’ll I’ll go back and I’ll look in my history to see which website it was. Because I was checking out for my monthly subscription to whatever it is, And it was, like, add on for ninety nine dollars a month. You can get, again, premium support or something that they might already have baked in anyway.
But if you can pull it out and add that extra hundred bucks a month in recurring revenue for the brand, that’s a huge win. Like, that’s a massive win. And if they’re already doing it, they already have it kind of baked in, just remove it from the the checklist, the the comparison chart, or the pricing table, or wherever it is and call it out on the cart and they can just add it to cart as a really simple add on or if you, like, bundle it as an upsell. But whatever the case is, there’s probably already money that’s just sitting there for your clients not doing anything.
I know that for a fact that that’s the case for our business.
So what are the chances that that’s not also the case for your clients businesses?
Of course, it is. They’re not sitting around thinking of this stuff and you don’t have to come up with it. You can just look at a checklist and grab something and go pitch it to them.
Offer stacking, sales page stacking immediately post purchase. This is a click funnels trick that most SaaS brands, most ecommerce brands that are not in the click funnels world. They don’t do this stuff. They don’t think about it. Some of them think it’s shady when they do hear about it. So if you can come in as a non shady person and make a recommendation for upsell pages immediately post purchase and get them to do it, you can directly impact them making more money immediately such that you don’t have to keep doing busy hand stuff. You just do these things and voila, they’re getting more incremental revenue growth, which is all businesses want.
Send an upgrade email to drive monthly payers to annual. It seems really, really obvious because it is really, really obvious, and yet so few brands actually do it. And then optimizing, like, dunning emails.
If you talk to your clients, have them go into their Stripe.
They don’t have to share it with you. Have them go into their Stripe and look to see what percentage of revenue is lost to credit card expiries.
Not to bounced purchases and, like, just declines, but a credit card expired.
Stripe did a report. I think it was, like, ten percent of a business’s revenue, might have been eleven, whatever. It was in that vicinity, is lost to credit cards expiring. It happens way more often than a person thinks.
And these crappy, hey. Your credit card expired emails go up. They get trapped in a promotion tab or something like that. They all say the same thing.
None of it’s interesting. None of it nudges you back to, actually update your credit card, like, they nudge. But, like, they put a a button isn’t a nudge. Like, you have to actually get people to want to go back in and say yes again to putting their credit card down.
So this is another thing if you were just to focus on revenue recovery, dunning emails, abandoned cart emails, things that were almost revenue and then they weren’t.
That is another really quick way to get people in. Alright. I’m not gonna get into the tools of the trade because I recognize what time it is now, but it’s worth going through and looking at these. I know I’ve been recommending Elfsight to a few people in the room. Check out Elfsight. It’s the one right up here.
Their catalog of little widgets is fantastic.
It will make it possible for you to optimize a lot of things for your clients and get them on board with all the cool shit that they can do.
All these different things for various tools you can get or methods of payment story.
Offer stacking tech and then other software for learning from your visitors. A lot of this, is still I mean, some of it’s outdated. That’s in making websites win. Actually, a lot of it has sold off, been shut down, doesn’t work anymore, in the book, but these are ones that still continue to work.
And then there’s more beyond that, way more beyond this. But these are, like, the core things you can talk to your clients about, and then they can expose you to more software too.
Alright. That is it.
So any questions out of the gate?
Any thoughts, concerns, anything like that before we switch over to the q and a part of the day?
No? I mean, it’s straightforward stuff. Just start telling your clients to do these things. Alright.
And it might seem bananas, but I think it’s that simple.
Worksheet
Optimizing Transactional Spaces (pp. 10 – 12)
Transcript
So, what we are gonna talk about today is we’re wrapping up this month on live or sorry, on, optimizing. Basically, trying to get more money out of the place where places where cash changes hands and cash doesn’t have to mean cash. It can also mean email addresses, which are Oh. Form of currency.
So the past couple weeks, we have talked about a variety of things in queue including recently on curiosity clicks. So today, I wanted to walk through some of the stuff that rose to the surface for me early on when I was, working at conversion rate experts, as, one of their CROs, at the time.
And that is did I know, Abby, you got to read Making Websites when Cody, did you get a chance to read that book?
Book of the Month?
I yeah. I’ve read it. Okay. Good. Cool. Okay.
Excellent.
Nice. Wonderful.
Good. So then you’re gonna be familiar with some of the things that we’re talking about here because you’ll have seen something similar to it or, in some cases, identical.
It was written, of course, by the founders of conversion rate experts. And so, yeah, there’s gonna be overlap. Of course. Alright.
Oh, Katie just joined. Perfect. Okay. So you should be seeing my screen. Yes. Indeed. We’re talking rapid fire.
So just right now, what are some really, like, quick CRO conversion optimization tricks that you can jump into when it’s time to do certain things that we typically have to do? So not everybody is working on a website overall, but some people watching this are, and a really very simple way, to make your site convert better in general is to add a phone number even if it’s for a company that doesn’t work, doesn’t seem natural that there needs to be a phone number like a course business.
Our business. What are you doing with a phone number on the page? But if it’s for returning visitors, that’s usually a signal of wanting something from the brand that maybe a person on the phone could help with. It might not get used that often, the phone number itself, but, it’s a driver of trust as like a big part of are these people legit, especially for a smaller brand, more niche brand, unlike IBM. And even IBM puts their phone number on there.
You wanna add reasons to believe near the global nav that’s really, really old school, but it’s still, like, eyes go toward where the global nav is. And when we’re optimizing for certain things, it’s really just like make sure they can see it as a starting point. So if you’ve got reasons to believe, like, free shipping, twenty four hour blank, quick delivery, money back guarantee, those sorts of things. If you have a global nav or if you you just wanna put it if you don’t have a global nav, it’s a landing page, but you just wanna make sure that people are seeing those key reasons to believe, then it’s really common to put them up at the top of the page, f pattern stuff when it comes to how people read.
This is a newer one, AI supported live sales chat. Obviously, sales chat has been a big deal on ecommerce sites in particular for ages, and then higher ticket service sites tend to see sales chat perform pretty well. So everybody in the room would be wise to consider a way to get some form of sales chat on their site. If people are already coming to your site, as we all know, nobody’s coming there just because it’s they’re bored and they have nothing better to do.
They probably need something from you and can sales chat help with that. And, again, if it’s AI supported, although that can be garbage and can require a lot of work on your side, if there’s a way to do it to start the conversation, if only to lead to a point of, saying, hey. Yes. Contact us.
Cool. At least you’ve nurtured them toward that contact.
Try to rethink. And this is for your clients, but also for you. Try to rethink the idea of sign up for my newsletter. I know we have a sign up for our newsletter thing at the bottom of our website.
But there are better, smarter ways, especially if you’re working with a younger brand or you’re doing this for your younger brand is something better than a newsletter. So what this the fifth point here that we’re talking about, fourth point, sorry, is really just, like, can you optimize that newsletter offer? And if you don’t have a reason for people to sign up for your quote, unquote newsletter, what else can you give them to sign up for to get access to? So Brian Dean, for the longest time, back when he was still running Backlinko, he had just just in the hero section. You couldn’t miss it. You had to enter your email address basically to enter the site.
And he grew like a six hundred thousand person email list, which was really great for getting people to keep sharing his content, which allowed him to sell to, SEMrush, for a nice healthy amount given that it was a content site.
So really think about if you already have resources, maybe there’s a way you can gate those and drive people to, give you their email address.
And then, of course, third party social proof is typically stronger than not third party social proof. So stronger than a testimonial that you’ve gathered or case study you put together.
I’m not gonna dig too deeply into any of these. I do want you to go over them, of course, if you haven’t already. So I but I also don’t want to gloss over them in case they need a little more color to make sense of them for those who are watching the replay and going on brand new to CRO.
What do you mean with these tricks?
So let’s talk about closer pages briefly. Now by closer page, I mean, either the pricing page. Basically, we’re at most aware slash most aware with high intent even if they’re probably with high intent if it’s a return visitor to a pricing page. So return visitors to pricing pages are a huge opportunity.
And, honestly, when we look through a lot of these, there’s, like, you could build your whole business. Not that anybody here should. You already have your own offers in place, but you could really build your business around.
I work exclusively on optimizing websites for returning visitors.
That is a massive opportunity, and I don’t know anybody who’s doing it. It’s just I that’s just not a thing. So there’s just there’s a lot of room out there to be an expert in the narrow thing that businesses need. Because we’ll see returning visitors a lot, across the various things that we do because there are better opportunity than a new visitor.
So we could rename the tiers or buckets for pricing, make sure you deoptimize the worst tier. So the worst tier I put in quotation marks because it’s not enterprise. It’s gonna be the worst tier for the business. Which one doesn’t the business want to, sell the most of? Now typically, people come in and when they’re just putting a pricing page together and I am big on pricing pages. I could talk all day about this one note, so I’ll try to keep it tight.
But when people work on pricing pages, they typically are not thinking how do we optimize this for conversion rate optimization. Rather, they’re thinking how do we get this thing out there in a way that looks right for the end user which is good, but and they’re also like, well, users just wanna try. So u x, the u x department typically runs your pricing page and that is a massive miss, but that’s just how a lot of online brands are. It’s just how it is.
We just live with it and that’s true even in the world of course creators. They’re still taking their recommendations. They might not have UX actually on their team, making these calls. But most of the designers for your clients that you might have in, like, the coaching space, those designers are trained by other organizations that are using UX departments to architect their site, and they’re rarely skilled in persuasion architecture.
So most of us are learning pricing pages and pages, like, on ecommerce sites, a checkout page, which is very difficult to optimize because most of them are made directly inside Shopify anyway or Shopify Plus, which is more customizable but more expensive.
But we don’t have the right people leading pricing. So if you can come in and help out on the pricing page, that’s glorious, and that is, of course, a closer page. Other closer pages are lead gen pages for anything. Again, if you have this email gated elite resource access, try not to leave that to chance. If you’re going to actually get people to sign up for the thing, spend a little word a few words getting them to, to do the thing successfully.
Rename tiers and buckets for pricing I mentioned with deoptimizing the worst tier. Make sure it’s the worst tier for the business. Don’t worry. You’ll figure it out for the customer, definitely. But but make sure that worst tier the tier of the business doesn’t want to sell, make sure it doesn’t look better than the others, and that can often just be renaming it from free or essentials to something that is not as desirable.
If you can influence your client, implement payment plan solutions, if they’re in the United States and they charge in US dollars, then outside of in the case, I believe of, if they’re b two b, it can be tricky. But if they’re b two c in the US and they’re not using Klarna or something like that, it’s really like they have to turn it on in Stripe. You don’t even have to go through application processes for this stuff anymore, which is night and day to where merchant services used to be.
Adding in really simple things, PayPal goes a long way and larger brands aren’t using it. So if you can get your client to use PayPal, that’s great. Anybody who has mobile buyers and isn’t using Apple Pay or Google Pay, out to lunch. You just gotta get them to do these things and there’s no two ways around it. Talk to the people who make these calls and make sure that they’re on there. And if they are on there, cool.
Flesh out the guarantee. That’s a really obvious one and we rarely flesh it out on sales pages or closer pages. So really help people, like, get the nuance of a guarantee so that they have zero concern that they’re gonna get into this and something’s gonna go wrong and they’re screwed. It doesn’t mean that they’ll now have, like, a playbook for how to take advantage of you, although the random people of the world will still do that.
But the rest of the world, the good buyers out there are just like, okay. Cool. If things go wrong, I’m set. Not, okay.
Cool. How do I scam you? That’s less likely to be the most common use case.
And then reordering tiers is, again, another really good one. I’m not gonna get too much into more of the pricing stuff.
Getting more money, period.
That’s all your clients want.
Just to be really clear, all they want is more money and they don’t typically care how you get there.
So what are some things that you can do?
There’s also back does anybody know the brand FlowJo?
FlowJo, they do these boxes. And Tiffany De Silva, is a friend. She was the head of CRO at Shopify in its earliest years.
And so as the head of CRO there, she then left. She had, like, a a list, like, her her best tactics that she would use for optimizing Shopify site and then rolling some of those optimizations out to the templates that Shopify users would come along and install. So what Shopify learns gets sent down to what these templates were how these templates were built.
She left Shopify, survived it, left Shopify, and, put together a box of cards for conversion rate optimization, originally called FlowJo.
And now she’s transitioned those boxes to be about, like, the couple’s bucket list and stuff like that, because it’s more fun for her. But you can still get I still actually have a bunch of boxes I bought, which like a box of cards that’s just filled with ideas. Like, what could I do on these in these different stages of the customer journey, etcetera. So if you can find a FlowJo box out there, then that is a really useful addition to everything we’re talking about.
Because when it comes to getting more money period, you cannot have too many tricks to pull on. So what can you do? Really quick ones, sell more seats with decreasing pricing, breach seat added. So, basically, what is a reward for getting more people in?
Some of these are technically challenging slash impossible. So your client can’t do it, but if you can still arrive on the scene saying, can we try this? How might we try this? That can encourage at least your client to understand that you are looking out for how they can get more money, period.
Don’t believe that their existing team is looking out for how to get more money, period. That’s rarely the case with in house team members. They’re typically not empowered to. There’s all sorts of politics going on.
It’s easier just to, like, kinda stay quiet and wait for leadership to tell you what to do. But if you can come in and help people get on board with some new ideas, you’re probably going to retain them a lot longer. You can add in an expensive gift of purchase today. I know I’ve mentioned this before.
I don’t know if I’ve mentioned it in Coffee School Pro, but I had a big entertainment brand, who, you’re not allowed to talk about them, but it’s big brand. And they were trying to get more people to sign up for something. I forget what it was. And they tested one year the sign up.
The prize was, like, you could win an all expenses paid trip for two to their head space, like, the key place where their team plays.
So it was, like, a ten thousand dollar prize to sign up, and they got really good sign ups. The next year, their prize was a ball cap.
So instead of a ten thousand dollar prize, it was something out of their gift shop and, they got the same number of sign ups with the ball cap. Not more, but the same number. So when your clients when you’re talking to your clients about, okay, well, we might be able to get more people off the fence. Again, incremental growth adds up across the different stages of the funnel. So if you get more people in ten percent more upfront, that means every other optimization down funnel downstream is also going to be more impactful. And then if you can just keep raising the number of people coming in to otherwise optimize parts of the funnel, everything gets wider, which is our goal with CRO.
So if you’re like, hey. We need to get more people on your list.
Well, we don’t wanna give away a big prize naturally, but what if you gave away every month someone some lucky winner gets a ball cap. It doesn’t have to go further than that, and it can be a really good experiment to get more people in more money in.
Obviously, things like creating custom high ticket offers, people in this exact room specialize in that, using VOC to develop no cost of business upsells and add ons. And that’s basically, again, like, can you what can you upsell?
I told a couple of you last week, those who are still around, that I had a really good talk with Brian from SamCart about some of those upsells and add ons that they use. I actually just experienced this with, oh, I forget the name, with a service provider.
Shit.
And when you check out, they just add on little services that they’re basically already doing. But if you can break them out and add a hundred bucks to add that thing on, I’ll I’ll go back and I’ll look in my history to see which website it was. Because I was checking out for my monthly subscription to whatever it is, And it was, like, add on for ninety nine dollars a month. You can get, again, premium support or something that they might already have baked in anyway.
But if you can pull it out and add that extra hundred bucks a month in recurring revenue for the brand, that’s a huge win. Like, that’s a massive win. And if they’re already doing it, they already have it kind of baked in, just remove it from the the checklist, the the comparison chart, or the pricing table, or wherever it is and call it out on the cart and they can just add it to cart as a really simple add on or if you, like, bundle it as an upsell. But whatever the case is, there’s probably already money that’s just sitting there for your clients not doing anything.
I know that for a fact that that’s the case for our business.
So what are the chances that that’s not also the case for your clients businesses?
Of course, it is. They’re not sitting around thinking of this stuff and you don’t have to come up with it. You can just look at a checklist and grab something and go pitch it to them.
Offer stacking, sales page stacking immediately post purchase. This is a click funnels trick that most SaaS brands, most ecommerce brands that are not in the click funnels world. They don’t do this stuff. They don’t think about it. Some of them think it’s shady when they do hear about it. So if you can come in as a non shady person and make a recommendation for upsell pages immediately post purchase and get them to do it, you can directly impact them making more money immediately such that you don’t have to keep doing busy hand stuff. You just do these things and voila, they’re getting more incremental revenue growth, which is all businesses want.
Send an upgrade email to drive monthly payers to annual. It seems really, really obvious because it is really, really obvious, and yet so few brands actually do it. And then optimizing, like, dunning emails.
If you talk to your clients, have them go into their Stripe.
They don’t have to share it with you. Have them go into their Stripe and look to see what percentage of revenue is lost to credit card expiries.
Not to bounced purchases and, like, just declines, but a credit card expired.
Stripe did a report. I think it was, like, ten percent of a business’s revenue, might have been eleven, whatever. It was in that vicinity, is lost to credit cards expiring. It happens way more often than a person thinks.
And these crappy, hey. Your credit card expired emails go up. They get trapped in a promotion tab or something like that. They all say the same thing.
None of it’s interesting. None of it nudges you back to, actually update your credit card, like, they nudge. But, like, they put a a button isn’t a nudge. Like, you have to actually get people to want to go back in and say yes again to putting their credit card down.
So this is another thing if you were just to focus on revenue recovery, dunning emails, abandoned cart emails, things that were almost revenue and then they weren’t.
That is another really quick way to get people in. Alright. I’m not gonna get into the tools of the trade because I recognize what time it is now, but it’s worth going through and looking at these. I know I’ve been recommending Elfsight to a few people in the room. Check out Elfsight. It’s the one right up here.
Their catalog of little widgets is fantastic.
It will make it possible for you to optimize a lot of things for your clients and get them on board with all the cool shit that they can do.
All these different things for various tools you can get or methods of payment story.
Offer stacking tech and then other software for learning from your visitors. A lot of this, is still I mean, some of it’s outdated. That’s in making websites win. Actually, a lot of it has sold off, been shut down, doesn’t work anymore, in the book, but these are ones that still continue to work.
And then there’s more beyond that, way more beyond this. But these are, like, the core things you can talk to your clients about, and then they can expose you to more software too.
Alright. That is it.
So any questions out of the gate?
Any thoughts, concerns, anything like that before we switch over to the q and a part of the day?
No? I mean, it’s straightforward stuff. Just start telling your clients to do these things. Alright.
And it might seem bananas, but I think it’s that simple.
Using Podcasts to Sign High-Ticket Clients
Using Podcasts to Sign High-Ticket Clients
Transcript
Oh, hey. Very excited about today’s training. I’m always excited about the trainings, but, especially excited because all, I wanted this to be really, really practical and actionable this time. And what we’re talking about is how to leverage your podcast appearances, whether, you know, you’ve got some coming up and or you’re planning to, whatever, into high ticket clients.
So do y’all have a copy of the workbook that has the podcast thing in it?
Okay. Great. Because I want you to pull that up. We’ll be looking at it, and I will and we’ll basically kind of use that.
Alright.
Cool.
Let me share screen.
Let’s go.
Okay.
Oh, sorry.
Hang on.
So how to turn podcast appearances into highly good client opportunities and sales. Here’s what we’re gonna talk about, the key elements for a podcast that does the prospecting for you, Mistakes to avoid and setting yourself up, of course, for high ticket sales success from your next podcast appearance. Podcast have been huge for our business, and it’s, like, almost I would say every podcast I have done has led to a new project or a new client.
So, yeah, I could say safely. Even the small ones.
And I’ll tell you how that works, but sometimes it is, you know, oh, you were on, like, a big podcast. So naturally, you know, you would have people wanting to reach out to you and all of that. But even with smaller podcasts, it is totally, totally possible. Hang on.
Caitlin says, I actually know you from a podcast. Hey. There you go. I love that.
Okay. Yeah. See? That’s, like, proof right there. Okay.
So why the big deal? Like I just said, podcasts are huge, and we need to start treating them as a conversion mechanism and not a visibility thing. Like, I’ll talk about this in a bit. But as CEOs of copywriting businesses, as CEOs of conversion agencies, as a CEO. You have to treat your podcast appearance as a conversion mechanism, as a source of sales that makes, like, all the difference in how you show up. Because the moment you start thinking of, oh, I’m doing this for visibility, it’s very different.
But the moment you start thinking about it, like, okay. This is a sales mechanism. I need to treat it as such.
Huge mindset shift makes all the difference.
So if podcasts are so great and, you know, people are seeing a lot of results from it and all of that, then why do most experts lead podcast interviews with zero leads? I cannot tell you how many conversations I’ve had with people who come into working with us inside of intentionally profitable. And one of the things when we tell them, like, okay. Let’s look at your, you know, at your podcast guesting plan.
They’re like, yeah. I’ve tried it. It does not work. I don’t get any leads. No clients.
So the reason is that most of them and this is, like, when we listen to their to their episodes, what we realize and what we have found is that they focus on either impressing the host, which is great, and that has does have its advantages.
But what they’re doing in the process is that they’re not really connecting with the listeners or that specific audience that they’re speaking to. Right?
They a lot of them and this is this is tricky because you, you know, you want to you wanna share tactical advice or you should you share too much, too little. So what happens is they on the side of caution and, as a result, share a lot of great stories. They’ll share a lot of great, you know, anecdotes and all of that. But the strategies or the advice they give is pretty surface level.
So people listening to it and and as an avid podcast listener, I have often, like, been very excited by the title of a podcast, hit play. After through my walk, I’m like, yeah. This is a giant waste of time. Let me just look for something else.
So for a podcast to bring in qualified leads, people ready to work with you, people like, okay. Yeah. I love this. I wanna talk to you about it.
You need to start looking at showing up in a way where you are an expert.
And sometimes that means that you need to present your offer in a way. You need to even your offer, which people again, a lot of, and I noticed this especially with creatives. I’m not just seeing copywriters, but most creatives.
The they’ve evened their offer, whether paid or free, only in the last thirty seconds where people are like, okay. Where can we find out more about you? But there are so many ways of you doing that even in the conversation in a way that is natural.
So these these are, like, three key mistakes that I’ve seen after listening to, like, like, hundreds of podcasts, and, of course, analyzing and critiquing so many of these for, you know, fellow creatives, fellow copywriters.
Okay.
Yeah.
I want you to open up the workbook page two, and I want you to take a few minutes to reflect on your recent podcast appearances. Be radically, brutally honest about the actual results. And then I’m gonna stop share for a minute because I wanna go into the chat. I wanna hear from you. I wanna know which podcast like, if you’re comfortable sharing, that’s great. But, otherwise, I wanna know how many leads, how many clients have you gotten. So opening chat up.
Katie Singh, I any chance someone can pop the workbook in the chat?
I can send you the link. Hang on. I have it. Let me stop sharing.
Oh, I just sent that. Okay. Thanks, Claire. Sorry.
You are faster than I was going back to sharing, which I’m waiting for it to.
Okay.
Cool. So who wants to share first?
Take a few minutes to do this, and then tell me how many leads, how many clients.
Clara, I still haven’t done a proper podcast, but we’re gonna talk about what a what podcast is in just a minute. Okay?
What the listeners? Okay. Yeah.
Looking at lead you mean lead pages. Right, Caitlin?
Because it says lead agents. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. So cool. Good. Let look at them now and Alright.
Anyone else? And it’s okay. If you had, like, no leads or no clients, that’s alright. That is exactly why we are here.
So this is easy. It feels like all the the answers are all zero. Okay, Katie. That will be very interesting to kind of dig into in a bit.
Please. All zero. Alright.
Okay. So we have a lot of scope. Let’s keep going. Jessica and Jessica’s here. Alright.
Cool. So we’re all starting in the same place before we move on. What you don’t wanna measure is downloads and shares. Those are really good.
Those are feel good metrics.
What we always wanna measure are actual leads. So Caitlin brought up a really good point about looking at her lead pages. I would highly recommend and we’ll talk. That is one of the strategies I will have for you. It’s like you want a podcast specific funnel in place. But, anyways, you wanna measure at all points actual leads who either reach out or sign up for your freebie and then convert. Right?
So as we go through these patterns that I’m gonna talk about, because this is kind of building on the mistakes we talked about, these these are slightly more specific and advanced. I want you to think about the last maybe two or three, or, Claire, in your case, the last podcast that you did, I want you all to think about those last few appearances and see if you can spot any of the pattern in your interview. I mean, we don’t have time to listen, but if you have those fresh in your mind, it should be fairly easy to go, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I’ve been doing this.
The first is the autobiography approach, where you spend too much time on your origin story. We’ve all listened to these podcasts where, you know, they generally start with, oh, so why don’t you tell me where did it all start or how did it all start?
If you don’t have a thirty to sixty second version of your story.
You need to get that together right now and one that aligns with what you’re doing and what, you know, what what your business is all about, yes, but also, you know, your why, your values because this is where you’re establishing that rapport. No one really wants to hear about, you know, anything that’s not really connected with how you would be able to help them or how you would connect with them on a more personal level. So I’ll give you an example. My, you know, slightly longer version of the origin story because we get this so often is is okay. So podcast guest, host asks, so, Pranun or so Pranun, man, tell me a little about how did it all start. Right?
And here’s my spiel.
So for me to tell you this, let me take you back to two thousand and eight. Our daughter was nine months old, and I was out of my mind, and I really needed something creative. So I started a blog called The Mom Writes. That was my introduction into online writing.
Fast forward a few years, two thousand ten, mine got really, really sick, and he was on bed rest for a year. And it was, you know, a really difficult time because he was the primary breadwinner, but then my blog was bringing in part time income. And it was actually a blog reader who reached out and homie when, you know, I was sharing about him being sick and being on you know, being so unwell and doctors not being able to figure out what was wrong with him. Blog reader told us to check out and get check his inflammation levels and get his pH level tested, and we got that tested.
Lo and behold, he started responding. He was off medication. And two thousand eleven, we had to take the decision of whether he would go back to work or we would start, you know, turn this part time blog thing into a more full time business. So we decided to give ourselves a year and see how things would go. And, well, fourteen years later, here we are.
That’s my story in a nutshell, which may lead to, you know, follow-up questions, etcetera, which is fine. But I don’t get into anything else. It all focuses on the fact that we start I start I’ve been writing online since two thousand eight, so I’m establishing instant expertise and authority there. It focuses on the fact that our family values, you know, the the fact that we we’re dealing with chronic illness.
We value working. We decided to get into business together. We took a chance on ourselves. These are things that EvoHealth actually reached out to me about after listening and, like, saying, you know, my husband and I were in the exact same boat.
Or my you know, I can totally relate to what you were saying about wanting a creative outlet because I’m a new mom, and I I love my baby, but I really, really want something to do. So that’s the whole idea of your bio section of your origin story.
Distill it down so it’s tied in to what it is that you would want your listeners to know about you and connect with. Next up is the generic guest.
This is the one that I’ve seen the most often when I’m critiquing podcasts for our intentionally profitable clients.
Everyone’s like, they like, you listen to one podcast, you listen to the second one, you listen to the third one, they’re saying this exact same things.
And while I am a huge fan of having signature talks and of having signature topics and all of that but if you are going on a podcast to talk about email marketing for, say, wedding planners and you’re going on another podcast talk talking about email marketing for, travel creators, I’m doing I’m giving you those examples because I’ve done both.
You want to tailor your message to that particular audience. You wanna think about specific use cases for those particular listeners. So for instance, when I did wedding pro CEO with Brandy Gaur, I, yes, I had written for wedding professionals, but I also looked at specific use cases for her listeners where when we were talking about the different sequences, I could give, like, specific examples that they could, you know, use and implement, which is why that then led to people reaching out and saying, okay. Yep.
This was great. I’m a wedding photographer. I would love for you to chat with me more about, you know, whatever it was that I discussed. So point is you can talk about email marketing, but you need to know your audience and you need to tailor examples to them.
Value overload.
This is the exact opposite of surface level tips.
This is where you’re giving them so many tips, but they’re not really connected to each other or building on one another.
So if you are going to be going in and talking about, say, conversion optimization for sales pages, you wanna keep it to three or five because that’s pretty much it.
And when you look at three or five, you want that okay.
When I’m talking about tip number one, let’s say I’m talking about, say, optimizing the headline section, then I’m not going to jump from headline to the close unless, of course, the close is a part of it is, like, tip three. So keep it chunk it into three or five. Those are, like, the easiest things to keep in mind. I have sometimes talked about more than five things in a podcast depending on how long it is, but going deep into three or five keeps it more memorable. And, also, remember, people are listening to podcasts when walking like I do or driving like Mike does or at the gym or while doing laundry. So you want it to be really, really memorable, but just, like, chucking a lot of content in them is not the solution.
And then this is the other one. There was this podcast that I listened to, as part of a critique that I was doing, and it was a little awkward. Why? Because the I knew that the copywriter on the other side had so much to share, but they were just waiting for the host to keep asking them those questions.
Like, that would bring out the goal. Like, oh, but they didn’t ask me that. That’s okay. Sometimes that you’ll come across hosts that are not great host.
It’s just part of that equation. Not every host is a great interviewer.
But, yeah, that is, anyways, beyond your control. Point is, as the expert, you can always guide the conversation.
So for instance, let’s say you are invited to a podcast to talk about welcome sequences.
Right? And you want to highlight the mistakes most people make with the sequences before you get into how to write it and all of that. And this the host has gone from introducing you, getting your origin story, talking about the importance of outcome sequence, and they’re like, okay. Yeah. So let’s talk about how do how do how do our listeners get started with writing a welcome sequence.
And what you do is you pause and you take a breath and you say, before I would love to get into that, but before we do that, I’d like to draw attention to the mistakes I want, you know, our audience to avoid because the last thing you wanna do is write a sequence only to realize you’ve gotten, you know, all of these things wrong. So let’s look at and then you then you move into whatever it is.
So have a structure because you are the expert here. You know what your audience and, again, remember, you don’t wanna think of them as just listeners. You wanna think of them as leads. What is it that you would want them to know before they come to you? So give them that and get into the habit of directing those conversations.
Okay. Before we move on, which one of these four patterns can you recall yourself? Or and if you haven’t, that’s great. I mean, it doesn’t have to be, but these are the four that I’ve seen the most.
But if you can relate to any of these and you can go like, yeah. I’ve been doing that. I’d love to hear that. And it’s also this is like an audit for y’all.
Okay.
Claire, probably value overload. Okay. Katie, also probably value overload. Caitlin, I want to conclude this origin story.
Alright. Yeah. We’ve all done that. Mine has come about after years and years of going on podcast and distilling it down.
And the other thing I okay. I highly recommend all of you do is listen to your own podcast. I would avoid it, like, anything. I just don’t like listening to myself, honestly. Like, I don’t listen to any of the trainings I do, but I had to get into the habit of listening to myself so I could spot the gap, and I could see what would make my next interview stronger.
So yeah. Because you wanna say, I wasn’t expecting to be asked about it. I yeah. I know.
Right? I mean, like but this is, like, the one question most host will ask. Yes. Someone some will avoid it.
Some would not avoid it. Some will skip rates right to, you know, whatever it is they brought you in for. But, most of them would ask. It’s always good to have, like, a short or really tight version of your origin story.
Perfect. Okay. Cool. Any tips for being more specific with examples when the show is not specific?
Okay. Katie, that’s a really good question. Do you want me to answer it now? Do you want me to answer it at the end?
Whatever is your question. Okay. Cool.
Let me answer it at the end because then I’ll lose my chain of thought.
The ones that have gone well, we predetermined the questions. Yes. Exactly. I logged in them because I prep my responses out loud when I’m practicing. That’s a really, really good strategy. And, yeah, I love it too. Mine loves it even more because, like you, he likes to, like, prep his responses and, you know, just kinda say say them out loud so you can see how they sound and all of that.
But, sadly, I often find a lot of the copyright a lot of the podcast host will go like, we’ll keep it free flowing.
Just like the worst thing ever, but that is exactly why you need to have, a plan in place. We’ll just get to that. Okay. Cool.
Good.
So like I said, the key to hits that between a podcast that would, you know, get you like, oh, yeah. This was great, and, you know, I love listening to to a podcast that gets you leads and clients is the shift between thinking about it as a visibility thing versus a conversion.
So every story, every example, every framework that you share on a podcast should move listeners towards a specific action.
That is key.
Here are three things I want you to keep in mind for your next podcast appearance. How are you gonna stop your party connection? What what are you gonna do to establish that connection? And what’s that next step that listeners should take after listening to you?
So keep these three things in mind. We’ll obviously get into more in just a bit, but you wanna start thinking about these elements right away. What’s gonna establish For me, it’s very clear my connection points are mom, chronic illness, non native English speaker, and then, of course, authority. I use, you know, things like, okay, clients are written for results, success stories, all of that. And then what’s the next step? So think about your elements before that next appearance.
And this these seven elements is what we’re gonna get the into.
These help you put those three things in place, the authority, the connection, the component, next step. So first step is your framework or your process. Now this kind of answers what Katie asked. Like, how what’s specific?
Like, where’s my chat? I don’t know. My chat is gone. Anyways, you know, the specific tips when the audience is not specific, Katie.
That was the question.
Yeah. So you wanna have, like, a framework or a process in place. So let’s say someone gets you onboard for your you know, the post sales sequence.
You talk about that process, but the examples you use is, you know, for if it’s not like a specific audience, like, say, like I said, travel creators or food bloggers or, you know, bridal professionals or whatever, then you just use general entrepreneurial example because then you use examples that you would be on that podcast for a reason. Right? It’s a it’s a podcast that your audience, your leads would listen to. So you then you speak to those. Then you use just general examples, but you do have a framework or a process. The good thing is all of you in CSP have been working on your your processes and your you know? So you want that in place.
Let’s say it’s a topic that’s on one specific element. You know? Like, let’s say it’s for instance, in my case, sometimes it’s, oh, let’s talk about sales pages. Now my process really is the overarching thing, but then I also have processes and frameworks for sales pages.
So that is where then I use those, which is why I have frameworks and processes both here. So I would say, oh, let me talk. For instance, I’ve got my opinion framework for sales pages in several, several spaces and done really well. But that’s, like, a very specific process for writing a sales page.
On the other hand, I have the big framework, which is basically my evergreen sales framework that I’ve also taught in but that in, you know, like masterminds and all that and on stage, but it’s a more generic framework that shows people how can they generate sales every day and what are the four stages that they need to kind of have in place.
Point being, you want to systematize the knowledge you share so it becomes easy for your audience to, a, hold on to it, and, b, spot the gaps
that they may have in their, you know, sales systems or whatever it is. So you wanna simplify the complexity. You wanna create a memorable structure, and you wanna position yourself as a true expert at the end of the day. That is the job of your framework. I don’t care whether it’s fancy. I don’t care whether it’s got, like, a shiny name or anything, but it needs to be it needs to be systematized enough so your audience can remember it.
Speaking of audience, you want client stories.
And I know this will kinda bring up a question where it’s just like, okay. But I don’t have client stories. And that’s fine. Let me just take a sip of water, and then I’ll come back to it.
Okay.
First, let’s tackle the if you do have client stories, especially if you have client stories for that particular audience, use that. Or if you have client stories for that specific offer or topic you have, like emails or sales pages or product pages or whatever it is that you want to be known for, use those.
Right?
But what if you don’t have any plan stories? Maybe, you know, you’re, like, breaking into a new niche. You haven’t gotten any projects or whatever. You use names that your audience would recognize, and you use that to show how hypothetically you would improve it or apply your framework to it.
So for instance, let’s say if I were, I’m just thinking of something that I’ve not okay. Let’s say I’ve had no experience in ecom. I do, full disclosure, but let’s say if I had no experience in ecom businesses, like oh oh, okay. Subscription boxes.
I had no experience in subscription boxes, and I was, you know, going on a podcast that was all about how to, you know, have, like, a really profitable subscription box business.
I would pick up examples from the subscription box industry box industry. Like, what’s the what’s the BarkBox. I would say, okay. If I were working on a welcome sequence or a new client onboarding experience for BarkBox, here’s what I would do.
So the goal here for client stories is twofold. One, yes, to share a social group, but, secondly, to show that you get the audience, that you understand their their struggle.
So even if you don’t have a client story, look around and look at the and a lot of you are doing that already. Right? You’re like, I can see in the group, like, people are studying different kinds of businesses that you’re, you know, new at and trying to see what’s working with them. I file pages and all of that. So use those examples.
Because then you’re not saying that, oh, this was a client. You’re saying, if I were to work with them on this, this is what I would do. So that’s the goal of client stories here is to help that your listener or your potential lead on the other end go like, oh, yeah. They get what what I would need or they get what I’m going through.
Whale clients, on the other hand, are all about a take. If you have this is, like, this is strictly optional, but if you have big name clients, weave them into the conversation.
If you’ve been featured and when I say real clients, I also mean things like, okay. If you’ve been featured on, like, a big name publication, you know, which is recognizable, weave it in to the conversation.
Again, these are things that will come with practice, which is why I highly encourage you all to listen to your podcast interviews and identify, like, oh, this is where I could have done this.
And then the next time you’re on an interview, you wanna make the same, you know, repeat the same pattern.
So, yeah, strategic name dropping is highly underused. There are way too many people who’ve worked with way too many amazing people who don’t do this enough.
I can I am not one of those people? I have zero qualms about name dropping, and I will do it all the time. So, point is, if you have these big names, it could be it could oh, before you all start to think, oh, I haven’t worked with anyone, or I haven’t been featured on Forbes as well.
The fact that you’re y’all are in CSP is something that you should be talking about because you are investing in your growth.
When I was certified by Joe way back, this was twenty seventeen, maybe. Yeah.
I made it a point to talk about it in every podcast that I was on. So even if and not just that. I would say so I was in a small group mastermind with Joanna Weave, and there were twelve of us, and we used to meet you know, I have to, like, wake up in the middle of the night to do these live writing sessions. And at the end of it, out of the twelve, only three of us were certified, and I was one of them.
That was my story.
And that is what, you know, led to a lot of great opportunities coming my way because, like I said, it this is, like, how you’re, you know, creating that authority transfers.
People knew Jill. People knew she certified me. It just gave me more authority.
So all of you in this room, you already have a name to drop drop it.
Keystone content. Super, super important.
All of you should, by now, have something like a keystone piece of content in place. If you don’t, I would highly recommend you do that. It could be a video. It could be a blog post.
It could be a podcast. If you have a podcast, it could be anything. I really don’t care. Point is you want strategic specific pieces of content on platforms that you own, where you can direct listeners to.
This is different from your funnel, like the opt in. This is different from that. And here’s why. Not everyone’s gonna sign up, but people will be intrigued and interested to read more or listen, you know, about something that speaks directly to them.
For instance, something that I do often now is like, oh, let’s say I’m on a podcast for welcome sequences. But then I’ll casually be there, like, yeah. Your welcome sequence is great. But then the last email of your welcome sequence should prepare prepare people for what comes next, which should be your newsletters.
I have a full blown blog post on my site that walks people through on what to write in those, newsletters, and, I’ll send the link over to you later. You can drop it in the show notes. I actually say that in the interview, and then after the interview, I send it over to the host. So before you hop on, look at the pieces of content you could include and make sure you have, like, a little blurb to use at the right moment.
Call levels. These are my favorites. Why? Because host use it for social media clips and most importantly, which gives, like which obviously helps with the reach part of it. But more importantly, I’ve had listeners come back to me or and leads fill our contact form saying, I loved it when you said this.
So these are the viral moments of your podcast appearance, except that they they do a lot more than just create that virality.
We all know going viral doesn’t always lead to, you know, more paying clients.
But with codables, I found, like it’s, again, one of those that instant connection point that makes it easier for people to remember you.
Using codables has led to you being invited on other podcasts that someone listened to, has obviously led to recent clients.
But more importantly, I really enjoy coming up with these as well, so it’s it’s fun too.
Unexpected truth, public reference is my very, very simple framework for it, which I basically reverse engineered when I looked at the codables that I tend to use. This is not a framework that, actually used and then created the codables. It’s like reverse engineered.
So things like marketing, it’s like brushing your teeth. You do it every day, roughly twice. Connection based conversions. I’ve been seeing this so often in conversations with the contracts.
This is something that recently started doing. I’ve started playing with this a bit. So I said, fluffy is a good look on clouds, not your puppy. In one other podcast, I said it’s a Fluffy’s a good look on clouds, not your bonuses.
I just can’t wear it so he doesn’t always and what I do with these is and what I want you to do is, I want you to think about three or five quote, those like catchy phrases. Now you’ve seen what they look like.
Right? And I want you to post them on social and see what people connect with and engage with. These have come up. I have used, like, this every single one of them has been on my social media, either LinkedIn. This is I put this on LinkedIn. I think I’ve even put it on Instagram or, like, wherever. Like, I would test it all over.
The moment I see it getting sticky is not when I know, like, yeah, I want something. So, also, it’s a really good creative exercise, so highly, highly recommend you do this. And, oh, when you’re delivering it, you wanna pause a little before you say it. Because then when they’re editing it, it just kinda makes it easier.
I don’t sometimes do this, but I’m getting better at it, the pause thing.
So, yeah, that’s one of my things to work on.
Okay. Next up is podcast specific funnels.
Caitlin brought up a really great point about looking at our lead pages.
Ideally, for at least for, like, big name podcasts, you want a podcast specific funnel.
What that does is you can, a, customize the heading to say, welcome, you know, listeners of so and so or welcome blank listeners, whatever podcast name it is. Secondly, you can your emails to them would reference that as well and kind of build on the connection that you already established. And it does not have to be complicated. A three email or a five email sequence is just fine.
But before you kind of bridge them into your regular sequence. But, I’ve always found I stopped doing this last year, and I noticed that it was, a, harder for me to track, and, b, overall conversions kind of dip. So I’m I’m going back to now creating podcast specific funnel, especially for the big thing, like, the podcast that I know get a few more in downloads. So, that is something to keep in mind.
Text it up. Please have good mics.
And oh, I was listening to this, why did I say good night? I was listening to this podcast with I’m totally blanking. Point is it was a really popular author, but his mic was so bad that the host had to before, like, once they edited it and post, he led us into the recording by saying, you know, his mic wasn’t great to start with, but then in the middle, he switched mic, so it’s gotten better. Please don’t be that person.
I mean, this was really great that they still ride with it because I think it was a pretty I’m totally forgetting, but it’s a pretty famous author. But, anyways, point is invest in a good mic for your podcast if you don’t already have one. Lighting is great. Sometimes it’s, you know, not practical because yeah.
But as great as it could possibly be. And the other thing is this is really important. If you’re not familiar with the software that they’re using, well, you know, sometimes it is like, oh, we are using something new. Make sure you, you know, install it if it needs installing.
You know, you’re comfortable with using it. The first time I had to use Riverside, for example, like, a few years ago, it just completely threw me because I was not familiar with Riverside at that point.
Now I am. But yeah. So that is something. Do your research so you know what works, what’s needed, and all of that.
And video podcast means, like, yeah, you need to put in the effort for hair and makeup. I recently recorded an audio only podcast. I’d, like, email them and ask them, like, are you sure it’s audio only? Because everyone see everyone these days is doing videos.
So, yeah, you wanna make sure hair, makeup, background, all of that. Do that check.
Okay.
I want to do this next. Think about your process of framework that you will talk about.
Identify your keystone content. Line up your codables and feature podcast specific funnel. These are, I know, things that will take a lot of time. But if you can even get these three in place, you would be golden. I would start with your process of framework. Like, this is something I feel very, very strongly about because it keeps that that conversation on straight and narrow and prevents the whole information overload, value overload pattern from occurring. So yeah.
Okay. Cool.
I am done.
Alright.
Where are the workers? Okay. Question. I’m getting responses from pitches, but they all know I think it’s because I’m basically a normal person with no following.
I feel I need to do something really cool to be put through. Do you have any suggestion on what I could do? Alright. I will answer Clay’s question.
Does anyone else have questions, or do you wanna share what you would be doing next out of those three to four things for your podcast appearance?
Yes, Katie.
I have a little question.
With what you, like, name drop the most, like your freebie, the the beginning of your funnel or your offer, do you just kinda go into each podcast with, like, the intention of, I’m gonna focus on my freebie so that this builds my funnel. And then over on this one, I’m gonna focus on my offer so there’s visibility to my offer. Or do you do both, or is that too compute? Like so what’s your approach there, and what have you seen works best?
That’s such a great question. I do set I do make notes on what I would be promoting in that particular podcast appearance, whether it’s a video or an off or an offer.
In most situations, I try and do both.
My offer pitch is usually very subtle. It is usually, like, along the lines. So when people work with us on their launches or it’s you know? Or, you know, our fully loaded launch copy package has been our most popular because it solves this exact problem. So it’s very subtle that ways. Right? But my preview is always always tailored, to being a logical next step.
Okay. Okay. Cool. Does that help? Yeah. Welcome.
If I can just pay you back on that question. So is there a particular type of freebie that you found performs well for podcasts?
The Katie, that is such a such a good question. I have tested so many freebies out.
All of last year, I have found the low file opt ins that I talked about working well. Like, this year, I am testing out a PDF opt in. Like, can you believe that? Like, I never probably go back to PDF opt in, but I yeah.
It’s been great. Like, so great this time. Like, I’m not talking about a podcast where I tested this out. I’ve spoke at Atomicon’s big networking week right there.
Incredible response. So I yeah. But point being, with podcast listeners, I have done all kinds of opt ins, but what I found works the best is something that builds on what they’ve heard on the podcast. So, honestly, the format doesn’t really matter as much, I believe.
Like, I have never tried an audio only podcast. That would I like, a private podcast. You know? I think that would be so cool to test out.
I just haven’t gotten around it. But I feel like because these are podcast listeners, if I could put together, like, a private podcast of sorts, so maybe that is something I will do next. But, otherwise, I have found email courses to work really well, PDF cheat sheets, checklists. Like, right now, there’s, like, a PDF guide that we’re getting out.
Yeah. And, oh, also, like, previously recorded master classes. So but it kind of depends on whether or not it’s it always depends on whether or not it’s connected to the, you know, topic itself.
And it sounds like those are all more educational, like, oriented resources versus going towards, like, an intro pack or services guide or even, like, a diagnostic. Like, you’re more you’re continuing to add value in the freebie versus taking them more.
Yeah. Because I sell in emails. So I they would get the freebie. The freebie would have more social proof and things like that, and, yes, it would give them a quick win. But then, the email sequence kicks in, which basically starts selling to them from usually from email two, three onwards. Yeah.
Okay. Great. Yeah.
I do think, testing diagnostic a desk diagnostic out would be a really good idea. Again, that is not something I have done, But, yeah, I’ll it will be interesting to see how that kind of plays out.
Mhmm. Yeah.
I think I’m I’m I’m thinking about how I could pitch my diagnostic kind of as the topic of the podcast, and then I have I’ve created kind of, like, a PDF checklist version of the the, you know, the framework so that even the opt in.
Because I feel like if you’re all if you’re listening to it on a podcast, you’re not you know, like, the idea is you’re sitting there with your paper, giving yourself the Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Then you could download for that as a reference of, like, okay. Now you’ve heard me talk about this. Download it.
That’s a really good idea. That’s what testing out for sure. Have you done this in the past? I did.
When do I I walked her through the phases, but not I kind of more just talked about what you should do. I wasn’t talking about the evaluating. So I think that hence, the value of the load identification. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. It would be nice to see how you would redo that, like, you know, presented more from, like, okay. Here’s, you know, here’s why you need it, and here’s what you’ll understand and all of that, instead of just the phases. I I think it’d be interesting to listen to it, ma’am.
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. You’re welcome. Cool. Okay. I’m gonna answer Claire’s question around pitching and getting a no.
Honestly, it is it is hard. It but it does happen. Like, you will send a hundred pitches and maybe get ten yeses.
Sometimes especially at the beginning, it is a numbers game.
The goal, though, is and, also, all of us are normal people. Like, we have you know, you don’t really need something cool to be worth the risk. You need to show what you would bring to the listeners and why is that a point of difference. Like, your pitch needs to be super, super specific to their audience, so you do need to do your research. I think I did a session on pitching, podcast.
I think I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah. In fact, I think the last one was, like, no a nonconversion ask. So, you know, that would work for podcast pitches as well. So really, really important for you to be specific to what would their audience walk away with.
Honestly, most podcast hosts don’t really care about social media following. I have, like, pitched way bigger podcast than and even now, like, our social media following is nowhere close to the, you know, podcast that host us. But point is, we all gotta start somewhere.
So start. And right now, I would say, I would love to see, Claire, like, when you listen to the recording, I would love to see your pictures so we can see how we could make them better. I think you did one of those earlier, but I’m happy to review more. And if you did more, make them tighter and more specific.
Because at the end of the day, honestly, like, even the huge podcast really, really value the fact that you, you know, put thought into the pitch. You listen to them. You know them. You know their audience, and you’re willing to show up and, like, really blow them away.
I have gold pitched, like, some pretty big podcast, basically, as I’m nobody, so I would say go for it. But, yeah, I would love to see your pitch if you feel like, okay. Yeah. You’re getting all those.
Also having a previous podcast guest? Yes. That’s another great strategy. Really, really great. Yeah. Especially if you know that you see someone who you know, definitely reach out to them.
I’m also a big fan of asking a podcast host to introduce you to other podcast host because they all kinda know each other. So I do that often. It’s, like, you know, Joe’s book meeting from a meeting minus, like, book a podcast from a podcast. I will always always, after the podcast, email the host, say it was great, and I can’t wait for the recording and can’t wait to share it, send them the links to any pieces of content I may have mentioned, and ask that, okay.
I am obviously looking to do more podcasts. Do you know anyone else with you who would be recording? I’ve I do the same with guest expert sessions as well.
And Katie says starting out with people you know well versus call pitch in to get the ball rolling. Yeah. Exactly. Right now, like, it’s okay if you get, like, on the smaller podcasts and then listen to those podcast episodes to see how you can make them better.
Honestly, like, I sometimes feel if I could get a second go at some of the podcast I did way back, I would be so much better. I’m really happy with how they did that, but I feel like, yeah. Now I know it’s so much better. But, anyways exactly.
Jessica makes another important point. Even if you’re on small, lesser known podcast and bigger podcast search your name, people do Google you. They’ll see you whatever. That makes a that makes a huge difference as well.
Caitlin, would you ever consider making something like a speaker reel that an audio oh, that is such a good idea.
Yeah. That is such a good idea. Yeah. And, you know, I if you’re asking me, I would love to do this.
I had just I hadn’t thought of it. So, yeah, that’s, like, a really cool idea. I do have, like, speaking videos, but I think this podcast version would be so cool, because then people can hear how you sound, you know, and they are confident. Like, in my pitches, I always make it a point to mention that, you know, we have like, our tech setup is all great, so they don’t have to be worried about that. But this would actually include that objection entirely. That’s a really cool idea. I think office should do this.
Cool.
Okay. Yeah.
Any other questions?
Or okay. No questions. I have homework as always.
So I would love for for y’all to listen to the last podcast you were on.
It could just be the one, and I would want you to, in Slack, share with me how would you make it better. Knowing what you know now, how would you make that podcast better so then you can take that reflection review into the next podcast you record? So go back, listen to the last podcast you were on, or, you know, just pick one that you thought was could have had more potential. Like, you could have gotten more leads out of it or something like that.
And then I would love for you to share. Tag me so I don’t miss Slack notifications for some reason. Sometimes I don’t get those notifications. Tag me.
And, again, let me know if you if there’s anything I can do to but I would wanna hear from you all, all four of you in the room, to, yeah, go back, audit your podcast, use the workbook, use the worksheet, use this presentation, whatever it is, but audit it, be honest, and come back and share with us.
Cool. Awesome.
Thank you.
So good. Thank you. You’re so much fun.
Good one. Okay. Thank you. Chat soon. Bye.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
Oh, hey. Very excited about today’s training. I’m always excited about the trainings, but, especially excited because all, I wanted this to be really, really practical and actionable this time. And what we’re talking about is how to leverage your podcast appearances, whether, you know, you’ve got some coming up and or you’re planning to, whatever, into high ticket clients.
So do y’all have a copy of the workbook that has the podcast thing in it?
Okay. Great. Because I want you to pull that up. We’ll be looking at it, and I will and we’ll basically kind of use that.
Alright.
Cool.
Let me share screen.
Let’s go.
Okay.
Oh, sorry.
Hang on.
So how to turn podcast appearances into highly good client opportunities and sales. Here’s what we’re gonna talk about, the key elements for a podcast that does the prospecting for you, Mistakes to avoid and setting yourself up, of course, for high ticket sales success from your next podcast appearance. Podcast have been huge for our business, and it’s, like, almost I would say every podcast I have done has led to a new project or a new client.
So, yeah, I could say safely. Even the small ones.
And I’ll tell you how that works, but sometimes it is, you know, oh, you were on, like, a big podcast. So naturally, you know, you would have people wanting to reach out to you and all of that. But even with smaller podcasts, it is totally, totally possible. Hang on.
Caitlin says, I actually know you from a podcast. Hey. There you go. I love that.
Okay. Yeah. See? That’s, like, proof right there. Okay.
So why the big deal? Like I just said, podcasts are huge, and we need to start treating them as a conversion mechanism and not a visibility thing. Like, I’ll talk about this in a bit. But as CEOs of copywriting businesses, as CEOs of conversion agencies, as a CEO. You have to treat your podcast appearance as a conversion mechanism, as a source of sales that makes, like, all the difference in how you show up. Because the moment you start thinking of, oh, I’m doing this for visibility, it’s very different.
But the moment you start thinking about it, like, okay. This is a sales mechanism. I need to treat it as such.
Huge mindset shift makes all the difference.
So if podcasts are so great and, you know, people are seeing a lot of results from it and all of that, then why do most experts lead podcast interviews with zero leads? I cannot tell you how many conversations I’ve had with people who come into working with us inside of intentionally profitable. And one of the things when we tell them, like, okay. Let’s look at your, you know, at your podcast guesting plan.
They’re like, yeah. I’ve tried it. It does not work. I don’t get any leads. No clients.
So the reason is that most of them and this is, like, when we listen to their to their episodes, what we realize and what we have found is that they focus on either impressing the host, which is great, and that has does have its advantages.
But what they’re doing in the process is that they’re not really connecting with the listeners or that specific audience that they’re speaking to. Right?
They a lot of them and this is this is tricky because you, you know, you want to you wanna share tactical advice or you should you share too much, too little. So what happens is they on the side of caution and, as a result, share a lot of great stories. They’ll share a lot of great, you know, anecdotes and all of that. But the strategies or the advice they give is pretty surface level.
So people listening to it and and as an avid podcast listener, I have often, like, been very excited by the title of a podcast, hit play. After through my walk, I’m like, yeah. This is a giant waste of time. Let me just look for something else.
So for a podcast to bring in qualified leads, people ready to work with you, people like, okay. Yeah. I love this. I wanna talk to you about it.
You need to start looking at showing up in a way where you are an expert.
And sometimes that means that you need to present your offer in a way. You need to even your offer, which people again, a lot of, and I noticed this especially with creatives. I’m not just seeing copywriters, but most creatives.
The they’ve evened their offer, whether paid or free, only in the last thirty seconds where people are like, okay. Where can we find out more about you? But there are so many ways of you doing that even in the conversation in a way that is natural.
So these these are, like, three key mistakes that I’ve seen after listening to, like, like, hundreds of podcasts, and, of course, analyzing and critiquing so many of these for, you know, fellow creatives, fellow copywriters.
Okay.
Yeah.
I want you to open up the workbook page two, and I want you to take a few minutes to reflect on your recent podcast appearances. Be radically, brutally honest about the actual results. And then I’m gonna stop share for a minute because I wanna go into the chat. I wanna hear from you. I wanna know which podcast like, if you’re comfortable sharing, that’s great. But, otherwise, I wanna know how many leads, how many clients have you gotten. So opening chat up.
Katie Singh, I any chance someone can pop the workbook in the chat?
I can send you the link. Hang on. I have it. Let me stop sharing.
Oh, I just sent that. Okay. Thanks, Claire. Sorry.
You are faster than I was going back to sharing, which I’m waiting for it to.
Okay.
Cool. So who wants to share first?
Take a few minutes to do this, and then tell me how many leads, how many clients.
Clara, I still haven’t done a proper podcast, but we’re gonna talk about what a what podcast is in just a minute. Okay?
What the listeners? Okay. Yeah.
Looking at lead you mean lead pages. Right, Caitlin?
Because it says lead agents. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. So cool. Good. Let look at them now and Alright.
Anyone else? And it’s okay. If you had, like, no leads or no clients, that’s alright. That is exactly why we are here.
So this is easy. It feels like all the the answers are all zero. Okay, Katie. That will be very interesting to kind of dig into in a bit.
Please. All zero. Alright.
Okay. So we have a lot of scope. Let’s keep going. Jessica and Jessica’s here. Alright.
Cool. So we’re all starting in the same place before we move on. What you don’t wanna measure is downloads and shares. Those are really good.
Those are feel good metrics.
What we always wanna measure are actual leads. So Caitlin brought up a really good point about looking at her lead pages. I would highly recommend and we’ll talk. That is one of the strategies I will have for you. It’s like you want a podcast specific funnel in place. But, anyways, you wanna measure at all points actual leads who either reach out or sign up for your freebie and then convert. Right?
So as we go through these patterns that I’m gonna talk about, because this is kind of building on the mistakes we talked about, these these are slightly more specific and advanced. I want you to think about the last maybe two or three, or, Claire, in your case, the last podcast that you did, I want you all to think about those last few appearances and see if you can spot any of the pattern in your interview. I mean, we don’t have time to listen, but if you have those fresh in your mind, it should be fairly easy to go, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I’ve been doing this.
The first is the autobiography approach, where you spend too much time on your origin story. We’ve all listened to these podcasts where, you know, they generally start with, oh, so why don’t you tell me where did it all start or how did it all start?
If you don’t have a thirty to sixty second version of your story.
You need to get that together right now and one that aligns with what you’re doing and what, you know, what what your business is all about, yes, but also, you know, your why, your values because this is where you’re establishing that rapport. No one really wants to hear about, you know, anything that’s not really connected with how you would be able to help them or how you would connect with them on a more personal level. So I’ll give you an example. My, you know, slightly longer version of the origin story because we get this so often is is okay. So podcast guest, host asks, so, Pranun or so Pranun, man, tell me a little about how did it all start. Right?
And here’s my spiel.
So for me to tell you this, let me take you back to two thousand and eight. Our daughter was nine months old, and I was out of my mind, and I really needed something creative. So I started a blog called The Mom Writes. That was my introduction into online writing.
Fast forward a few years, two thousand ten, mine got really, really sick, and he was on bed rest for a year. And it was, you know, a really difficult time because he was the primary breadwinner, but then my blog was bringing in part time income. And it was actually a blog reader who reached out and homie when, you know, I was sharing about him being sick and being on you know, being so unwell and doctors not being able to figure out what was wrong with him. Blog reader told us to check out and get check his inflammation levels and get his pH level tested, and we got that tested.
Lo and behold, he started responding. He was off medication. And two thousand eleven, we had to take the decision of whether he would go back to work or we would start, you know, turn this part time blog thing into a more full time business. So we decided to give ourselves a year and see how things would go. And, well, fourteen years later, here we are.
That’s my story in a nutshell, which may lead to, you know, follow-up questions, etcetera, which is fine. But I don’t get into anything else. It all focuses on the fact that we start I start I’ve been writing online since two thousand eight, so I’m establishing instant expertise and authority there. It focuses on the fact that our family values, you know, the the fact that we we’re dealing with chronic illness.
We value working. We decided to get into business together. We took a chance on ourselves. These are things that EvoHealth actually reached out to me about after listening and, like, saying, you know, my husband and I were in the exact same boat.
Or my you know, I can totally relate to what you were saying about wanting a creative outlet because I’m a new mom, and I I love my baby, but I really, really want something to do. So that’s the whole idea of your bio section of your origin story.
Distill it down so it’s tied in to what it is that you would want your listeners to know about you and connect with. Next up is the generic guest.
This is the one that I’ve seen the most often when I’m critiquing podcasts for our intentionally profitable clients.
Everyone’s like, they like, you listen to one podcast, you listen to the second one, you listen to the third one, they’re saying this exact same things.
And while I am a huge fan of having signature talks and of having signature topics and all of that but if you are going on a podcast to talk about email marketing for, say, wedding planners and you’re going on another podcast talk talking about email marketing for, travel creators, I’m doing I’m giving you those examples because I’ve done both.
You want to tailor your message to that particular audience. You wanna think about specific use cases for those particular listeners. So for instance, when I did wedding pro CEO with Brandy Gaur, I, yes, I had written for wedding professionals, but I also looked at specific use cases for her listeners where when we were talking about the different sequences, I could give, like, specific examples that they could, you know, use and implement, which is why that then led to people reaching out and saying, okay. Yep.
This was great. I’m a wedding photographer. I would love for you to chat with me more about, you know, whatever it was that I discussed. So point is you can talk about email marketing, but you need to know your audience and you need to tailor examples to them.
Value overload.
This is the exact opposite of surface level tips.
This is where you’re giving them so many tips, but they’re not really connected to each other or building on one another.
So if you are going to be going in and talking about, say, conversion optimization for sales pages, you wanna keep it to three or five because that’s pretty much it.
And when you look at three or five, you want that okay.
When I’m talking about tip number one, let’s say I’m talking about, say, optimizing the headline section, then I’m not going to jump from headline to the close unless, of course, the close is a part of it is, like, tip three. So keep it chunk it into three or five. Those are, like, the easiest things to keep in mind. I have sometimes talked about more than five things in a podcast depending on how long it is, but going deep into three or five keeps it more memorable. And, also, remember, people are listening to podcasts when walking like I do or driving like Mike does or at the gym or while doing laundry. So you want it to be really, really memorable, but just, like, chucking a lot of content in them is not the solution.
And then this is the other one. There was this podcast that I listened to, as part of a critique that I was doing, and it was a little awkward. Why? Because the I knew that the copywriter on the other side had so much to share, but they were just waiting for the host to keep asking them those questions.
Like, that would bring out the goal. Like, oh, but they didn’t ask me that. That’s okay. Sometimes that you’ll come across hosts that are not great host.
It’s just part of that equation. Not every host is a great interviewer.
But, yeah, that is, anyways, beyond your control. Point is, as the expert, you can always guide the conversation.
So for instance, let’s say you are invited to a podcast to talk about welcome sequences.
Right? And you want to highlight the mistakes most people make with the sequences before you get into how to write it and all of that. And this the host has gone from introducing you, getting your origin story, talking about the importance of outcome sequence, and they’re like, okay. Yeah. So let’s talk about how do how do how do our listeners get started with writing a welcome sequence.
And what you do is you pause and you take a breath and you say, before I would love to get into that, but before we do that, I’d like to draw attention to the mistakes I want, you know, our audience to avoid because the last thing you wanna do is write a sequence only to realize you’ve gotten, you know, all of these things wrong. So let’s look at and then you then you move into whatever it is.
So have a structure because you are the expert here. You know what your audience and, again, remember, you don’t wanna think of them as just listeners. You wanna think of them as leads. What is it that you would want them to know before they come to you? So give them that and get into the habit of directing those conversations.
Okay. Before we move on, which one of these four patterns can you recall yourself? Or and if you haven’t, that’s great. I mean, it doesn’t have to be, but these are the four that I’ve seen the most.
But if you can relate to any of these and you can go like, yeah. I’ve been doing that. I’d love to hear that. And it’s also this is like an audit for y’all.
Okay.
Claire, probably value overload. Okay. Katie, also probably value overload. Caitlin, I want to conclude this origin story.
Alright. Yeah. We’ve all done that. Mine has come about after years and years of going on podcast and distilling it down.
And the other thing I okay. I highly recommend all of you do is listen to your own podcast. I would avoid it, like, anything. I just don’t like listening to myself, honestly. Like, I don’t listen to any of the trainings I do, but I had to get into the habit of listening to myself so I could spot the gap, and I could see what would make my next interview stronger.
So yeah. Because you wanna say, I wasn’t expecting to be asked about it. I yeah. I know.
Right? I mean, like but this is, like, the one question most host will ask. Yes. Someone some will avoid it.
Some would not avoid it. Some will skip rates right to, you know, whatever it is they brought you in for. But, most of them would ask. It’s always good to have, like, a short or really tight version of your origin story.
Perfect. Okay. Cool. Any tips for being more specific with examples when the show is not specific?
Okay. Katie, that’s a really good question. Do you want me to answer it now? Do you want me to answer it at the end?
Whatever is your question. Okay. Cool.
Let me answer it at the end because then I’ll lose my chain of thought.
The ones that have gone well, we predetermined the questions. Yes. Exactly. I logged in them because I prep my responses out loud when I’m practicing. That’s a really, really good strategy. And, yeah, I love it too. Mine loves it even more because, like you, he likes to, like, prep his responses and, you know, just kinda say say them out loud so you can see how they sound and all of that.
But, sadly, I often find a lot of the copyright a lot of the podcast host will go like, we’ll keep it free flowing.
Just like the worst thing ever, but that is exactly why you need to have, a plan in place. We’ll just get to that. Okay. Cool.
Good.
So like I said, the key to hits that between a podcast that would, you know, get you like, oh, yeah. This was great, and, you know, I love listening to to a podcast that gets you leads and clients is the shift between thinking about it as a visibility thing versus a conversion.
So every story, every example, every framework that you share on a podcast should move listeners towards a specific action.
That is key.
Here are three things I want you to keep in mind for your next podcast appearance. How are you gonna stop your party connection? What what are you gonna do to establish that connection? And what’s that next step that listeners should take after listening to you?
So keep these three things in mind. We’ll obviously get into more in just a bit, but you wanna start thinking about these elements right away. What’s gonna establish For me, it’s very clear my connection points are mom, chronic illness, non native English speaker, and then, of course, authority. I use, you know, things like, okay, clients are written for results, success stories, all of that. And then what’s the next step? So think about your elements before that next appearance.
And this these seven elements is what we’re gonna get the into.
These help you put those three things in place, the authority, the connection, the component, next step. So first step is your framework or your process. Now this kind of answers what Katie asked. Like, how what’s specific?
Like, where’s my chat? I don’t know. My chat is gone. Anyways, you know, the specific tips when the audience is not specific, Katie.
That was the question.
Yeah. So you wanna have, like, a framework or a process in place. So let’s say someone gets you onboard for your you know, the post sales sequence.
You talk about that process, but the examples you use is, you know, for if it’s not like a specific audience, like, say, like I said, travel creators or food bloggers or, you know, bridal professionals or whatever, then you just use general entrepreneurial example because then you use examples that you would be on that podcast for a reason. Right? It’s a it’s a podcast that your audience, your leads would listen to. So you then you speak to those. Then you use just general examples, but you do have a framework or a process. The good thing is all of you in CSP have been working on your your processes and your you know? So you want that in place.
Let’s say it’s a topic that’s on one specific element. You know? Like, let’s say it’s for instance, in my case, sometimes it’s, oh, let’s talk about sales pages. Now my process really is the overarching thing, but then I also have processes and frameworks for sales pages.
So that is where then I use those, which is why I have frameworks and processes both here. So I would say, oh, let me talk. For instance, I’ve got my opinion framework for sales pages in several, several spaces and done really well. But that’s, like, a very specific process for writing a sales page.
On the other hand, I have the big framework, which is basically my evergreen sales framework that I’ve also taught in but that in, you know, like masterminds and all that and on stage, but it’s a more generic framework that shows people how can they generate sales every day and what are the four stages that they need to kind of have in place.
Point being, you want to systematize the knowledge you share so it becomes easy for your audience to, a, hold on to it, and, b, spot the gaps
that they may have in their, you know, sales systems or whatever it is. So you wanna simplify the complexity. You wanna create a memorable structure, and you wanna position yourself as a true expert at the end of the day. That is the job of your framework. I don’t care whether it’s fancy. I don’t care whether it’s got, like, a shiny name or anything, but it needs to be it needs to be systematized enough so your audience can remember it.
Speaking of audience, you want client stories.
And I know this will kinda bring up a question where it’s just like, okay. But I don’t have client stories. And that’s fine. Let me just take a sip of water, and then I’ll come back to it.
Okay.
First, let’s tackle the if you do have client stories, especially if you have client stories for that particular audience, use that. Or if you have client stories for that specific offer or topic you have, like emails or sales pages or product pages or whatever it is that you want to be known for, use those.
Right?
But what if you don’t have any plan stories? Maybe, you know, you’re, like, breaking into a new niche. You haven’t gotten any projects or whatever. You use names that your audience would recognize, and you use that to show how hypothetically you would improve it or apply your framework to it.
So for instance, let’s say if I were, I’m just thinking of something that I’ve not okay. Let’s say I’ve had no experience in ecom. I do, full disclosure, but let’s say if I had no experience in ecom businesses, like oh oh, okay. Subscription boxes.
I had no experience in subscription boxes, and I was, you know, going on a podcast that was all about how to, you know, have, like, a really profitable subscription box business.
I would pick up examples from the subscription box industry box industry. Like, what’s the what’s the BarkBox. I would say, okay. If I were working on a welcome sequence or a new client onboarding experience for BarkBox, here’s what I would do.
So the goal here for client stories is twofold. One, yes, to share a social group, but, secondly, to show that you get the audience, that you understand their their struggle.
So even if you don’t have a client story, look around and look at the and a lot of you are doing that already. Right? You’re like, I can see in the group, like, people are studying different kinds of businesses that you’re, you know, new at and trying to see what’s working with them. I file pages and all of that. So use those examples.
Because then you’re not saying that, oh, this was a client. You’re saying, if I were to work with them on this, this is what I would do. So that’s the goal of client stories here is to help that your listener or your potential lead on the other end go like, oh, yeah. They get what what I would need or they get what I’m going through.
Whale clients, on the other hand, are all about a take. If you have this is, like, this is strictly optional, but if you have big name clients, weave them into the conversation.
If you’ve been featured and when I say real clients, I also mean things like, okay. If you’ve been featured on, like, a big name publication, you know, which is recognizable, weave it in to the conversation.
Again, these are things that will come with practice, which is why I highly encourage you all to listen to your podcast interviews and identify, like, oh, this is where I could have done this.
And then the next time you’re on an interview, you wanna make the same, you know, repeat the same pattern.
So, yeah, strategic name dropping is highly underused. There are way too many people who’ve worked with way too many amazing people who don’t do this enough.
I can I am not one of those people? I have zero qualms about name dropping, and I will do it all the time. So, point is, if you have these big names, it could be it could oh, before you all start to think, oh, I haven’t worked with anyone, or I haven’t been featured on Forbes as well.
The fact that you’re y’all are in CSP is something that you should be talking about because you are investing in your growth.
When I was certified by Joe way back, this was twenty seventeen, maybe. Yeah.
I made it a point to talk about it in every podcast that I was on. So even if and not just that. I would say so I was in a small group mastermind with Joanna Weave, and there were twelve of us, and we used to meet you know, I have to, like, wake up in the middle of the night to do these live writing sessions. And at the end of it, out of the twelve, only three of us were certified, and I was one of them.
That was my story.
And that is what, you know, led to a lot of great opportunities coming my way because, like I said, it this is, like, how you’re, you know, creating that authority transfers.
People knew Jill. People knew she certified me. It just gave me more authority.
So all of you in this room, you already have a name to drop drop it.
Keystone content. Super, super important.
All of you should, by now, have something like a keystone piece of content in place. If you don’t, I would highly recommend you do that. It could be a video. It could be a blog post.
It could be a podcast. If you have a podcast, it could be anything. I really don’t care. Point is you want strategic specific pieces of content on platforms that you own, where you can direct listeners to.
This is different from your funnel, like the opt in. This is different from that. And here’s why. Not everyone’s gonna sign up, but people will be intrigued and interested to read more or listen, you know, about something that speaks directly to them.
For instance, something that I do often now is like, oh, let’s say I’m on a podcast for welcome sequences. But then I’ll casually be there, like, yeah. Your welcome sequence is great. But then the last email of your welcome sequence should prepare prepare people for what comes next, which should be your newsletters.
I have a full blown blog post on my site that walks people through on what to write in those, newsletters, and, I’ll send the link over to you later. You can drop it in the show notes. I actually say that in the interview, and then after the interview, I send it over to the host. So before you hop on, look at the pieces of content you could include and make sure you have, like, a little blurb to use at the right moment.
Call levels. These are my favorites. Why? Because host use it for social media clips and most importantly, which gives, like which obviously helps with the reach part of it. But more importantly, I’ve had listeners come back to me or and leads fill our contact form saying, I loved it when you said this.
So these are the viral moments of your podcast appearance, except that they they do a lot more than just create that virality.
We all know going viral doesn’t always lead to, you know, more paying clients.
But with codables, I found, like it’s, again, one of those that instant connection point that makes it easier for people to remember you.
Using codables has led to you being invited on other podcasts that someone listened to, has obviously led to recent clients.
But more importantly, I really enjoy coming up with these as well, so it’s it’s fun too.
Unexpected truth, public reference is my very, very simple framework for it, which I basically reverse engineered when I looked at the codables that I tend to use. This is not a framework that, actually used and then created the codables. It’s like reverse engineered.
So things like marketing, it’s like brushing your teeth. You do it every day, roughly twice. Connection based conversions. I’ve been seeing this so often in conversations with the contracts.
This is something that recently started doing. I’ve started playing with this a bit. So I said, fluffy is a good look on clouds, not your puppy. In one other podcast, I said it’s a Fluffy’s a good look on clouds, not your bonuses.
I just can’t wear it so he doesn’t always and what I do with these is and what I want you to do is, I want you to think about three or five quote, those like catchy phrases. Now you’ve seen what they look like.
Right? And I want you to post them on social and see what people connect with and engage with. These have come up. I have used, like, this every single one of them has been on my social media, either LinkedIn. This is I put this on LinkedIn. I think I’ve even put it on Instagram or, like, wherever. Like, I would test it all over.
The moment I see it getting sticky is not when I know, like, yeah, I want something. So, also, it’s a really good creative exercise, so highly, highly recommend you do this. And, oh, when you’re delivering it, you wanna pause a little before you say it. Because then when they’re editing it, it just kinda makes it easier.
I don’t sometimes do this, but I’m getting better at it, the pause thing.
So, yeah, that’s one of my things to work on.
Okay. Next up is podcast specific funnels.
Caitlin brought up a really great point about looking at our lead pages.
Ideally, for at least for, like, big name podcasts, you want a podcast specific funnel.
What that does is you can, a, customize the heading to say, welcome, you know, listeners of so and so or welcome blank listeners, whatever podcast name it is. Secondly, you can your emails to them would reference that as well and kind of build on the connection that you already established. And it does not have to be complicated. A three email or a five email sequence is just fine.
But before you kind of bridge them into your regular sequence. But, I’ve always found I stopped doing this last year, and I noticed that it was, a, harder for me to track, and, b, overall conversions kind of dip. So I’m I’m going back to now creating podcast specific funnel, especially for the big thing, like, the podcast that I know get a few more in downloads. So, that is something to keep in mind.
Text it up. Please have good mics.
And oh, I was listening to this, why did I say good night? I was listening to this podcast with I’m totally blanking. Point is it was a really popular author, but his mic was so bad that the host had to before, like, once they edited it and post, he led us into the recording by saying, you know, his mic wasn’t great to start with, but then in the middle, he switched mic, so it’s gotten better. Please don’t be that person.
I mean, this was really great that they still ride with it because I think it was a pretty I’m totally forgetting, but it’s a pretty famous author. But, anyways, point is invest in a good mic for your podcast if you don’t already have one. Lighting is great. Sometimes it’s, you know, not practical because yeah.
But as great as it could possibly be. And the other thing is this is really important. If you’re not familiar with the software that they’re using, well, you know, sometimes it is like, oh, we are using something new. Make sure you, you know, install it if it needs installing.
You know, you’re comfortable with using it. The first time I had to use Riverside, for example, like, a few years ago, it just completely threw me because I was not familiar with Riverside at that point.
Now I am. But yeah. So that is something. Do your research so you know what works, what’s needed, and all of that.
And video podcast means, like, yeah, you need to put in the effort for hair and makeup. I recently recorded an audio only podcast. I’d, like, email them and ask them, like, are you sure it’s audio only? Because everyone see everyone these days is doing videos.
So, yeah, you wanna make sure hair, makeup, background, all of that. Do that check.
Okay.
I want to do this next. Think about your process of framework that you will talk about.
Identify your keystone content. Line up your codables and feature podcast specific funnel. These are, I know, things that will take a lot of time. But if you can even get these three in place, you would be golden. I would start with your process of framework. Like, this is something I feel very, very strongly about because it keeps that that conversation on straight and narrow and prevents the whole information overload, value overload pattern from occurring. So yeah.
Okay. Cool.
I am done.
Alright.
Where are the workers? Okay. Question. I’m getting responses from pitches, but they all know I think it’s because I’m basically a normal person with no following.
I feel I need to do something really cool to be put through. Do you have any suggestion on what I could do? Alright. I will answer Clay’s question.
Does anyone else have questions, or do you wanna share what you would be doing next out of those three to four things for your podcast appearance?
Yes, Katie.
I have a little question.
With what you, like, name drop the most, like your freebie, the the beginning of your funnel or your offer, do you just kinda go into each podcast with, like, the intention of, I’m gonna focus on my freebie so that this builds my funnel. And then over on this one, I’m gonna focus on my offer so there’s visibility to my offer. Or do you do both, or is that too compute? Like so what’s your approach there, and what have you seen works best?
That’s such a great question. I do set I do make notes on what I would be promoting in that particular podcast appearance, whether it’s a video or an off or an offer.
In most situations, I try and do both.
My offer pitch is usually very subtle. It is usually, like, along the lines. So when people work with us on their launches or it’s you know? Or, you know, our fully loaded launch copy package has been our most popular because it solves this exact problem. So it’s very subtle that ways. Right? But my preview is always always tailored, to being a logical next step.
Okay. Okay. Cool. Does that help? Yeah. Welcome.
If I can just pay you back on that question. So is there a particular type of freebie that you found performs well for podcasts?
The Katie, that is such a such a good question. I have tested so many freebies out.
All of last year, I have found the low file opt ins that I talked about working well. Like, this year, I am testing out a PDF opt in. Like, can you believe that? Like, I never probably go back to PDF opt in, but I yeah.
It’s been great. Like, so great this time. Like, I’m not talking about a podcast where I tested this out. I’ve spoke at Atomicon’s big networking week right there.
Incredible response. So I yeah. But point being, with podcast listeners, I have done all kinds of opt ins, but what I found works the best is something that builds on what they’ve heard on the podcast. So, honestly, the format doesn’t really matter as much, I believe.
Like, I have never tried an audio only podcast. That would I like, a private podcast. You know? I think that would be so cool to test out.
I just haven’t gotten around it. But I feel like because these are podcast listeners, if I could put together, like, a private podcast of sorts, so maybe that is something I will do next. But, otherwise, I have found email courses to work really well, PDF cheat sheets, checklists. Like, right now, there’s, like, a PDF guide that we’re getting out.
Yeah. And, oh, also, like, previously recorded master classes. So but it kind of depends on whether or not it’s it always depends on whether or not it’s connected to the, you know, topic itself.
And it sounds like those are all more educational, like, oriented resources versus going towards, like, an intro pack or services guide or even, like, a diagnostic. Like, you’re more you’re continuing to add value in the freebie versus taking them more.
Yeah. Because I sell in emails. So I they would get the freebie. The freebie would have more social proof and things like that, and, yes, it would give them a quick win. But then, the email sequence kicks in, which basically starts selling to them from usually from email two, three onwards. Yeah.
Okay. Great. Yeah.
I do think, testing diagnostic a desk diagnostic out would be a really good idea. Again, that is not something I have done, But, yeah, I’ll it will be interesting to see how that kind of plays out.
Mhmm. Yeah.
I think I’m I’m I’m thinking about how I could pitch my diagnostic kind of as the topic of the podcast, and then I have I’ve created kind of, like, a PDF checklist version of the the, you know, the framework so that even the opt in.
Because I feel like if you’re all if you’re listening to it on a podcast, you’re not you know, like, the idea is you’re sitting there with your paper, giving yourself the Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Then you could download for that as a reference of, like, okay. Now you’ve heard me talk about this. Download it.
That’s a really good idea. That’s what testing out for sure. Have you done this in the past? I did.
When do I I walked her through the phases, but not I kind of more just talked about what you should do. I wasn’t talking about the evaluating. So I think that hence, the value of the load identification. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. It would be nice to see how you would redo that, like, you know, presented more from, like, okay. Here’s, you know, here’s why you need it, and here’s what you’ll understand and all of that, instead of just the phases. I I think it’d be interesting to listen to it, ma’am.
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. You’re welcome. Cool. Okay. I’m gonna answer Claire’s question around pitching and getting a no.
Honestly, it is it is hard. It but it does happen. Like, you will send a hundred pitches and maybe get ten yeses.
Sometimes especially at the beginning, it is a numbers game.
The goal, though, is and, also, all of us are normal people. Like, we have you know, you don’t really need something cool to be worth the risk. You need to show what you would bring to the listeners and why is that a point of difference. Like, your pitch needs to be super, super specific to their audience, so you do need to do your research. I think I did a session on pitching, podcast.
I think I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah. In fact, I think the last one was, like, no a nonconversion ask. So, you know, that would work for podcast pitches as well. So really, really important for you to be specific to what would their audience walk away with.
Honestly, most podcast hosts don’t really care about social media following. I have, like, pitched way bigger podcast than and even now, like, our social media following is nowhere close to the, you know, podcast that host us. But point is, we all gotta start somewhere.
So start. And right now, I would say, I would love to see, Claire, like, when you listen to the recording, I would love to see your pictures so we can see how we could make them better. I think you did one of those earlier, but I’m happy to review more. And if you did more, make them tighter and more specific.
Because at the end of the day, honestly, like, even the huge podcast really, really value the fact that you, you know, put thought into the pitch. You listen to them. You know them. You know their audience, and you’re willing to show up and, like, really blow them away.
I have gold pitched, like, some pretty big podcast, basically, as I’m nobody, so I would say go for it. But, yeah, I would love to see your pitch if you feel like, okay. Yeah. You’re getting all those.
Also having a previous podcast guest? Yes. That’s another great strategy. Really, really great. Yeah. Especially if you know that you see someone who you know, definitely reach out to them.
I’m also a big fan of asking a podcast host to introduce you to other podcast host because they all kinda know each other. So I do that often. It’s, like, you know, Joe’s book meeting from a meeting minus, like, book a podcast from a podcast. I will always always, after the podcast, email the host, say it was great, and I can’t wait for the recording and can’t wait to share it, send them the links to any pieces of content I may have mentioned, and ask that, okay.
I am obviously looking to do more podcasts. Do you know anyone else with you who would be recording? I’ve I do the same with guest expert sessions as well.
And Katie says starting out with people you know well versus call pitch in to get the ball rolling. Yeah. Exactly. Right now, like, it’s okay if you get, like, on the smaller podcasts and then listen to those podcast episodes to see how you can make them better.
Honestly, like, I sometimes feel if I could get a second go at some of the podcast I did way back, I would be so much better. I’m really happy with how they did that, but I feel like, yeah. Now I know it’s so much better. But, anyways exactly.
Jessica makes another important point. Even if you’re on small, lesser known podcast and bigger podcast search your name, people do Google you. They’ll see you whatever. That makes a that makes a huge difference as well.
Caitlin, would you ever consider making something like a speaker reel that an audio oh, that is such a good idea.
Yeah. That is such a good idea. Yeah. And, you know, I if you’re asking me, I would love to do this.
I had just I hadn’t thought of it. So, yeah, that’s, like, a really cool idea. I do have, like, speaking videos, but I think this podcast version would be so cool, because then people can hear how you sound, you know, and they are confident. Like, in my pitches, I always make it a point to mention that, you know, we have like, our tech setup is all great, so they don’t have to be worried about that. But this would actually include that objection entirely. That’s a really cool idea. I think office should do this.
Cool.
Okay. Yeah.
Any other questions?
Or okay. No questions. I have homework as always.
So I would love for for y’all to listen to the last podcast you were on.
It could just be the one, and I would want you to, in Slack, share with me how would you make it better. Knowing what you know now, how would you make that podcast better so then you can take that reflection review into the next podcast you record? So go back, listen to the last podcast you were on, or, you know, just pick one that you thought was could have had more potential. Like, you could have gotten more leads out of it or something like that.
And then I would love for you to share. Tag me so I don’t miss Slack notifications for some reason. Sometimes I don’t get those notifications. Tag me.
And, again, let me know if you if there’s anything I can do to but I would wanna hear from you all, all four of you in the room, to, yeah, go back, audit your podcast, use the workbook, use the worksheet, use this presentation, whatever it is, but audit it, be honest, and come back and share with us.
Cool. Awesome.
Thank you.
So good. Thank you. You’re so much fun.
Good one. Okay. Thank you. Chat soon. Bye.
Beginning to Coach the Conversion for New Leads / Subs
Beginning to Coach the Conversion for New Leads / Subs
Transcript
Sweet. Alright. We’re gonna dive in. So this is, like, our first call post all that glorious goal setting we did back in December.
December. Yeah. How is that for everybody? Any, like, lingering questions from the goal setting marathon?
Anything to share there?
I think it was good because now, you know, how everyone’s, oh, New Year’s resolutions. You know? I’ve already had it all set, and I’m just rolling right into it.
So Sweet.
Amazing. Beautiful.
My mind is racing.
I know the feeling.
Cool. Sweet. Alright. Let’s dive in. I’m gonna pull up this keynote.
Gosh. You take, like, ten days off from Zoom calls, and you get so rusty, and you forget where the share button is. It’s like relearning tech.
There we go.
Sweet. Before I kick it, who here has taken either ten x launches or ten x sales pages before?
Sweet. We got a few hands up. Sweet. Alright. So definitely not a prerequisite, but, good to know.
So this is our first session of January. It’s gonna be all about engaging and nurturing new leads. This one is all about how to do so with what is affectionately known as the coaching of the conversion method and a very specific confirmation email template that y’all, may have already seen it in the workbook. If not, we’ll see momentarily.
So super, super brief coaching the conversion primer. This is something I’ve typically taught in, like, you know, hour long plus sessions. So this is the two minute version of it. But, essentially, it goes like this.
The version of your prospect who opted in to your funnel, to your lead magnet, to whatever it is that brought them into your ecosystem is not the same version that says yes to your core offer. Right? And there are a series of milestones, which may come in the form of certain beliefs that they now have, certain states, things they now feel, whether that is feeling encouraged, empowered, optimistic, certain awarenesses, things they are aware of now that they weren’t aware of a few minutes ago or a few weeks a few weeks ago and certain micro actions that they’ve taken. And all these things are needed to bridge what I call a pre customer, someone who comes into your ecosystem into a customer, someone who is a natural yes to your thing and your marketing and the messaging structures you use within it are essentially tools to bridge the gap via a process that we call coaching the conversion.
I said we call coaching the conversion, but I’m really speak for myself.
One second.
Do not eat almond before a call. Those things get stuck in, like I’m just gonna call it the tracheal cavity cavity tracheal cavity as if I’ve taken premed classes, which I haven’t. I don’t know. I think I totally made up made that up. The tracheal cavity.
Cool. So I have an unreasonable completely unreasonable because it’s impossible, but it’s an unreasonable belief that every lead who enters a conversion ecosystem, aka funnel, should convert. Like, I always get surprised. I’m like, why isn’t everyone who’s coming into this funnel converting?
It makes no sense to me. So I have this unreasonable belief that everyone who comes into our funnel, especially if we’ve done our job in targeting that top of funnel effectively, targeting people who actually have that moment of high ascension, that problem we’re talking about, people who truly desire that solution we’re talking about, I have this unreasonable belief that absolutely everybody should convert, and I get, like, almost insulted when one person doesn’t buy. And one on one sales tells us that, yeah, we should raise our standards. Thirty to sixty percent should be expected.
Right? This is what a typical one on one salesperson will convert out of warm leads. Right?
So that is a far cry from, I don’t know, the one to three percent that, you know, automated funnels or non one on one sales funnels produce that.
So this is a classic case of aim for ten x, right, and be cool with two to three x of typical conversion rates. Right? And this is essentially where the whole coaching to conversion method was birthed from, was me listening to a ton of recordings from one on one salespeople converting at upwards of fifty percent and being like, dang. Wouldn’t it be cool if we could do that at scale? Like, why should we be settling for one to three percent when people who are in these dynamic one on one scenarios with the same type of leads that our marketing is attracting are closing at thirty, fifty, sixty percent.
So coaching the conversion, it plays out across different assets, different types of funnels.
Ten x launches was the first course we released on it, which essentially coached the conversion through a launch. Someone enters your launch. They go through the prelaunch. They go through the actual launch. The cart closed, and we’re coaching different states, awarenesses, beliefs throughout that.
Ten x sales pages, which you all have access to, coaches the conversion vertically. Right? Pre customer, someone who lands on your page, sees the hero section. Customer, someone who gets to the end of it, clicks buy now. Right? So that is coaching the conversion vertically.
Sales conversation, that’s another type of ecosystem. Engineering the enrollment is another course that teaches that. So coaching the conversion plays out across multiple different types of ecosystems, but they all involve the same process of digging into the very basic stuff. Right?
Where are they now? Pre customer. And as a marketer, you get to decide this to some extent through your targeting, which I think is an amazing thing. We get to define our pre customer.
How cool is that? Where do they need to be for a yes to be natural? Right? This is our customer.
This is our voice of customer research. What were those final states, those final awarenesses? What was the energy? What was the feeling of someone who said yes?
Right? What did they believe before they said yes? So we get to actually reverse engineer this. And how can I facilitate that transformation at scale?
And none of this is guesswork. Right? We have the data on the anatomy of what a customer is. We get to target who our pre customer is.
Right? And, therefore, we get to make certain hypotheses of what that transformation is and attempt to do it at scale. So coaching the conversion with new leads, fresh leads via email, I’d venture to say, is one of the most important conversion contacts. And your confirmation slash welcome email will nearly almost always be the most highly opened email, like, out of all the emails in your system.
Like, you could go into your ActiveCampaign. That first email that gets sent is typically the one that’s gonna have the highest open rate, except for the ones with the click baity subject lines that, you know I don’t know. I’ve seen some pretty good click baity emails in my time. But, yeah, you’re gonna get a lot of eyeballs on this, a lot of attention and awareness on this one.
Definitely a lot more in email one than email number two, so it’s it’s gotta pull its weight. It’s gotta earn its real estate in your funnel. It will also set the tone of your relationship with your prospect. It’s typically where they decide if you’re gonna be the friend zoned person, the person who puts out great content that they love, the person who sends great newsletters but they never actually buy from, or the person who gets fiercely compensated.
So this is really a big tone setter in that regard.
Alright. Some high level principles when it comes to coaching, the conversion, and a confirmation email. So the more specific and intent based the opt in, the easier it is to coach the next step. And I’ll give you some really clear examples.
So if someone opts in for a workshop called how to make ten k per month as a freelancer in twenty twenty five, that’s excellent. Right? You know their goal. You know what they’re signing up for.
Versus a lead magnet on things every copywriter should know about selling. That’s great. That’s kind of mid. That’s middle ground.
Versus the best copywriter newsletter ever. Right? Vague, general, broad. You have no way of knowing who that pre customer is when they opt in for that.
Right?
So in my experience, a paid low ticket opt in, even if it’s a workshop that costs five dollars, will always almost always signal stronger intent and commitment than a free webinar or a free report. That’s why I love, love, love, love, love implementing and working with paid low ticket workshops.
Even things that people have typically used for free, I love just making it paid. It helps us clearly define who that pre customer is when someone actually takes out their credit card to even exchange five bucks.
One thing I will note, after years of trying to get people to acknowledge this fact, right, it is almost impossible to coach the conversion off of a general newsletter opt in. Right? Like, it can’t be done. There are too many assumptions and stretches you’re making on a general newsletter opt in.
So before you do that, you definitely need to segment that list, segment those leads, get them to raise their hand, and define themselves as as a certain type of pre customer. Right? So we do have templates for that. I think I taught this inside, CSP early in twenty twenty four.
But you could definitely look for the coffee date email template. That’s a really good one for segmenting your list and getting general opt ins to define themselves as something more specific where you can then coach the conversion in a more intentional and direct way.
And this is the biggest principle.
Essentially, the better your top of funnel targeting is, especially via ad creative. If you’re ad creative, if your Instagram reels, if your LinkedIn post could speak so specifically, right, to that top of funnel avatar, the more conversion milestones will heart will have already been met. So a conversion milestone, for example, is someone having a moment of high attention. Right? Being aware of a moment that they no longer want to experience with respects to that problem.
Another milestone is them being aware of certain solutions. Another milestone is them having tried certain things that haven’t worked. Right?
The more you can meet someone who’s already gone through that, the less you actually have to coach, the less steps within that journey that your marketing is responsible to lead them through. And it is really expensive and really time consuming to lead someone through an entire journey. Right? So the biggest hack you can give yourself is to begin that journey, begin that pre customer journey a little further down that line. Right? And your top of funnel targeting, the ad creative, the LinkedIn post, the Instagram reel is essentially what makes your copy have to work less hard down the line.
So your tofu targeting, in a perfect world, this is the first thing I would audit right before I write any email sequence for anybody. Right? Is are we making sure that we are bringing the right people into this funnel? And by right people, not just meaning people who have this problem, but people who are aware of it.
Right? I’m aware, moment of high tension, things that they absolutely no longer want to experience again in their lifetimes, that they have a known and desired outcome and resonate with what I call the moment of heightened pleasure. They know what success looks like, and they’re committed to it because they have that frustration and confusion within that gap. So this is all super basic, but it’s all worth returning to when it comes to our top of funnel targeting.
Right? The more of these boxes we could check off and the more intense these things are true for the people we’re targeting, the less hard our copy is gonna have to work. So when this is true, when we’ve checked these boxes, when our top of funnel marketing is dialed in, then your confirmation email can coach what I call the big three. But before we get into that, few quick rules more than ever.
Forget everything you’ve learned about nurturing in twenty twenty fourteen when the world moves slower and meta algorithms didn’t show your prospect ads for your competitors three minutes later. So this is a thing now more than ever. Now that the algorithms for ad platforms are getting so smart and so dialed in, Essentially, if someone opts in to your lead magnet, opts into your workshop, they’re going to be getting ads for your competitors a few minutes later on their feeds. Right?
So this is permission to move faster than you would otherwise. Right? Most marketers think they need to warm up cold leads, quote, unquote, when in reality, if they’ve targeted their top of funnel properly, they need to keep warm leads hot and use that fire to coach progress towards a solution. So always on the side of assuming movement and readiness and siding with speed.
Once again, time delay stagnancy is your enemy, especially when your prospect, your leads are gonna be getting presented other options, other solutions from your competitors literally within seconds or minutes. So unless your primary goal is to build a media company or a newsletter or an influencer brand, do not lead with your backstory. Email one shouldn’t just be, you know, an introduction about you. It shouldn’t just be authority content that is disconnected to the problem that the top of funnel piece or content or ad suggested that they have.
Right? So a very easy hack here to kinda balance the two. I love putting any authority content, whether it’s, like, books you’ve written or podcasts you’ve appeared on, or any other type of, like, backstory stuff you have in your email signature. That way you have, like, the passive credibility and authority content that they could just kind of, like, click through if they truly desire that.
But once they enter your funnel, if you’ve done your targeting right, you’re really trying to establish movement towards that end state.
So the big three, you can think of this big three as a source code, right, where you can use any tactic, any strategy, any messaging structure within your arsenal to coach them. It’s essentially these are three milestones, three states that you get to coach, and you get to use the tools available to you. You get to get creative about how you structure emails as long as they’re establishing these three. So the first one is coaching relevance because these are a few of the questions your prospect is gonna ask immediately, whether they’re consciously asking themselves this in their head or they are subconsciously making sure there’s a match here. Right? Am I in the right spot?
Is this message mirroring back my exact moment of highest tension that I want to escape? Is this relevant?
Is this message mirroring back the moment of heightened pleasure or moment of highest pleasure I want to achieve?
Is this message meeting me in what I’ve already done, tried, and failed at? And is this message pointing to an offer, opportunity, or next step that gives me new hope? Right? So if you get a yes to all five of these, you have coached relevance, and you need to coach this right off the bat. Do not waste time. Do not send out any other messaging, propping yourself up as an authority, positioning your brand until you’ve coached relevance.
Next is resonance. Right? Do they resonate with you, with your assessment of them, with your diagnosis of the problem, with your unique solution, and with your understanding and empathy of the entire situational gestalt? So one of the things I love to do in my marketing is talking about the stakes involved, the second degree effects of the main problem, right, the secret fears that they have around it. So really get dimensional about how problems appear in people’s lives, right, and get resonance around what you are mirroring back to them. And then the most important is coaching response ability, their ability to respond, their willingness to respond.
Making a purchase, saying yes, is an action. That is a response. Right? If we could get them to start taking microactions right away, ascending in the intimacy between what you’re doing, right, and them.
Right? So that could look like watching a paid workshop that they just bought. Right? That could mean engaging in a direct message or an Instagram chat or taking an assessment via score app or interact or a quiz or replying to a personal video message or replying to the email or booking call.
Essentially, what we are coaching on that very first email is can we get them to take that next action with us. Right? Not later, not on email number two when open rates have gone down anywhere between thirty thirty to fifty percent, but can we get can we get that next monumental action right here on the first email? So this is a little bit of extra theory.
This is something I created, like, a few years ago in a program that was called automated in intimacy. I can’t use that anymore because AI has totally taken on different dimensions. But, essentially, we’re trying to move people to this top right quadrant. Right?
The majority of sales happen as touch points ascend in intimacy and dynamism. Right? So we have a lot of marketing that exists in the bottom left quadrant. This is static.
It’s a one way dialogue. Right? And it’s impersonal. It’s one to many. But the more we move to that top right, the more we see higher and higher conversion rates.
Right? So this is just a little bit of an extra framework to see if you can get that next touch point to be more intimate than their initial one. Can you get any form of two way dialogue, dynamic dialogue?
And, essentially, that is one way to coach the conversion via greater intimacy.
So let’s put it all together. This is called the perfect confirmation email template, and it’s really simple. It’s, like, two hundred and fifty words that incorporates all this, you know, sciency stuff. It’s not even sciency.
I don’t even know what to call it. But, yeah, this is what incorporates everything we just talked about. So step one is to confirm and celebrate the opt in action or the event, right, to just mirroring back the action they just took. So this is one I wrote recently for a paid workshop paid workshop opt in.
That’s right. Cool. So hey. And then I blanked out the name. My team just nudged me to let me know you claimed a spot in the Art Money Power workshop.
Right? So just mirroring back what they just did. Now we have this whole section on coaching relevancy, which probably means so that’s a really good segue into this section for coaching relevancy.
That like the five hundred plus others who’ve said, hell yes, and now we mirror back. Right? Who they are. You’re an established fine artist who wants to sell more art pieces in twenty twenty five at higher prices.
That has you proving all dem doubters wrong as you sign a lease for that industrial loft with the exposed brick. Right? Little moment of highest pleasure there. It also means that you’re probably so effing done with trying to prove yourself to the leeches of the industry.
So moment of highest tension stuff. The agents who don’t return your calls. The art galleries who take a crazy cut and return your untold pieces with nasty stains and, oh my god, are there someone’s greasy ass fingerprints. Right?
Real moment of highest tension information we get from our voice of customer data. The art contest judged by other grad school burnouts who probably chat GPT their feedback without even looking because what they wrote makes no effing sense, and all the other disempowering ways the pick me, choose me, love me art industry has robbed you of your profits and your power.
So after reading this, like, section of maybe a hundred and a hundred and fifty words, right, there is zero chance anyone reading this would find this would essentially not know whether this was relevant for them. It’s either gonna be hyper relevant, like hyper agreement, or very clear that this isn’t for them. Right? So this is about coaching relevancy.
Next, coaching resonance. So a lot of this will have already established some resonance, but we wanna create even more resonance right around the new way of doing things. So if you caught yourself nodding, then you probably also be beyond stoked to learn and apply the same direct to customer luxury strategies that my students are using to attract kind collectors, cut out the middleman, and cash five bigger checks on the regular while finally knowing they’ve made it. Right?
So resonance around their end goal, resonance around the method for doing it. And then we coach responsibility, encouraging that next step, that next ascension on that paid spectrum or that paid, framework that we just went through. Now here’s the deal. If you close this email, then that dream remains just that, a dream.
Fun to pay and should be to live. But if this whole combo feels hyper relevant and you’re committed to making twenty twin twenty twenty five a living master masterpiece, then I highly recommend that you, one, watch the art money power workshop right away. So that is one form of coaching responsibility. And then the next, DM me power on Instagram to kick start your seventy two hour hybrid coaching and get a little unannounced bonus gift.
Trust me. You’ll love it. So I love adding a little bit of a teaser, a little unexpected gift for them taking an action that has sent them on the intimacy scale. So this is one tactic if you’re doing any form of evergreen workshops, evergreen webinars that I absolutely love.
So on the page or the workshop, one of the bonuses is called hybrid coaching. Right? So we acknowledge that this is prerecorded.
And because they can’t answer questions live, part of it the bonus they get is they get seventy two hours of q and a and hybrid coaching with this person and her team. Right? So this is a way to engage that level of intimacy and real time coaching even within an evergreen workshop.
I’m crazy passionate about helping fine artists like you reclaim their power, dignity, and profit from traditional art establishment as long as you’re all in, I’m all in with you. Cool. So that is the template. Really simple, and it’s pulling a lot of weight in relatively little words.
And, yeah, this is where we really take advantage of the fact that this first email is going to be the most opened, and we get right to the point. We coach relevancy. We coach resonance, and this is really our main goal. Our main goal is to initiate that one on one chat right off the bat, to not waste time with that because we know that if we can get a lead to engage one on one with this coach and with her team, that the likelihood of that lead converting and moving to that final conversion is gonna be that much higher.
Cool. I think that’s all we got. So I’m gonna stop my share and open the floor for any questions, any, brainstorms you all wanna have about how you might apply this in your own business for your own funnels or for funnels you’re working on per client.
Right. Where can I find the workbook?
Did you get a did you get a copy of it in your email yet?
I didn’t even look at my email. I have to see. Yeah.
It’s possible it got sent out. If not, Okay. And I could probably let me see if I can just download a copy.
No. Message me on Slack if you can access it, and I should be able to, drop a file for you. Cool.
Sure.
No problem. Cody.
Okay. So with that template you just showed us, is that supposed to be in this workbook, or is that somewhere else?
That is supposed to be in the workbook. Yeah.
Okay. Because I’m looking at the workbook, and I don’t see it in here.
Alright. So it’s possible that an updated version just didn’t get updated, like, while the crew was on holiday break.
But Alright.
What I can definitely do is, yeah, I’ll download it, copy of it, and I’ll send it to you over on Slack.
Awesome. Thanks.
Cool. Jess?
Okay. I love this. One of the things that I’ve been noodling on while you were talking was, with the diagnostic.
Mhmm.
And so if you were running, like, a group diagnostic, and let’s say you’re running it as, like, a webinar, you know, you start collecting sign ups, like, a week out or something. What would you recommend that you put in the, like, the responsibility of, like, here’s what I need you to do? Like, what’s that action that you would recommend that we prompt them with?
Right. So if they’ve already opted in for a webinar, that would go through that. Right?
Mhmm.
That’s a good question. Right? So, like, if there is an assessment, like, a self assessment that they could go through beforehand, like, essentially, you could take parts of what you go through on that webinar and just give them a faster self assessment version of it, right, of, like Mhmm. If this is something that you just got their attention with, because it’s you’re doing this live, right, the webinar?
Yeah.
Right.
So one thing you wanna defend against on live webinars, right, is, like, people being really aware and really kind of, like, motivated to solve it in the moment they sign up, and then there’s this gap and this lag and life happens. Right? So, essentially, it’s kind of like a skip the line type thing. Right? It’s like, take this assess take this assessment here. If you see your own gaps and wanna talk about it, like, send over your results.
So, yeah, it’s like, take this assessment, and let me know, like, where you scored, where you noticed that you’re a little weaker. Right? And we can kick start that conversation sooner.
I like that. And because one of the things I think that was really impactful for me when I did Jo’s assessment thing was, like, her walking through it and explaining it all. And I feel like, especially with the diagnostic, I don’t know that it would have and, obviously, I don’t have, like, the assessment, but I feel like the the walking it through and explaining it, it would almost have to be, like, instead of showing up live to the webinar, here’s a recording of me, like, walking you through it, and then why would they show up live.
So I’m wondering if what are your thoughts on asking for, like, a DM or a reply to be like, what is, like, your experience with x, y, and zed problem to, a, get some, like, VOC, but then to also open up that conversation, like, in the upper quadrant there of, like, the sales quadrant that you shared.
Yeah. I think it’s a great idea. I think anything you could do to get that one on one conversation right away from that moment of I’ll I’ll call it a moment of heightened receptivity. Right?
They just saw your webinar landing page. It resonated. They’re like, yes to this. They signed up.
You’re top of mind in that moment. If they’re able to take that next action to ascend in the intimacy scale right there and then, like, even if it’s a button on your landing page around, like, you know, send me a quick DM, like, letting me know what inspired. Like, there’s the surveys we have sometimes on landing pages of, like, what inspired you to do this thing. I prefer, like, just a bun.
Like, tell me. Right, at this stage of our business when we’re making those sales. Like, that doesn’t need to go through SurveyMonkey. Like, just send that straight to my inbox so that we can have that conversation now.
There’s this, it’s, like, so stupid symbol, and it works so well. I can’t remember who coined it, but it’s like I think it was, like, called the non webinar webinar or the webinar that doesn’t matter. And it was, like, someone who is running webinar funnels just for the purpose of starting DM conversations, and it’s almost like the webinar itself didn’t even matter. Right?
And, of course, it did matter. There was a legit webinar there. But the whole purpose was, like, sign up for the webinar. You know you have someone who is resonating with the messaging around the webinar, and then just get them into that one on one conversation right away.
Right? Like, what inspired you to join? Right? Like, where do you think you might be weak when it comes to this?
Right? And get into that exploratory conversation.
And that person had more conversions happening from people who didn’t even see the webinar. Right? It was just a right? So don’t insist on just because we’ve crafted these, like, amazing webinars and workshops with all the right diagnostics, like, don’t insist on that being the only way someone could come to work with you. Right? Mhmm. Like yeah.
Okay. Cool. Thank you. And I have another question, but I’ll let Joseph go. And if there’s time, I’ll ask another.
For sure.
Thanks, Joseph.
Go for it, Joseph.
Ryan, that was awesome.
So how like, what does planning your marketing like, your funnel automation look like now? Like, considering what you like like like you said, you know, like, your training has completely changed.
And today, you showed us that, like, that initial first email.
Mhmm. But I guess what does, like, what does planning the automation look like like for you now? Or, like, do or does the workbook cover that?
So it doesn’t go deeper than this template. So Okay. I mean, I could go through kinda, like, what my basic funnels look like. Right? Or we could make it more specific to something you’re working on. Do you have a preference on that?
Or do you wanna just, like For now, if you can just skip the sketch of, like, what your kind of basic information is now because I don’t have something specific at the moment.
Yeah. So, yeah, I tell you, a lot of it still comes back to this concept of automated intimacy that was the theme of a program I created a few years ago. And it’s essentially you have your emails, which are I call them, like, marketing scaffolding. Right?
They’re gonna do what they do. Right? But I can’t assume that my email sequence is going to coach that whole conversion. Right?
Like, you can’t assume someone’s gonna open up every email. Right? And, like, in twenty fifteen, people would say, like, in email number one, I’m gonna coach this belief. In email two, this one.
In email three, I’m gonna give them the FAQ. Right? And there’s this, like, weird assumption that someone’s actually reading through everything lit in a linear order. Right?
So, essentially, what my marketing looks like right now is the first forty eight hours are when I’m really trying to get that ascension right into a one on one conversation.
There’s been a big shift from, once again, like, free webinars and free lead magnets to paid even if it’s, like, really low ticket and essentially trying to get that first contact via myself one on one or someone on my team one on one to talk to that lead within the first day or two, even in a very, like, general wanna make sure you have everything set up. Right?
And the quicker I could get engaged in a real dynamic conversation, essentially, the better. So another way this is done, lead scoring used to be a really big piece part of this. It still is for clients who have a lot bigger lead flow.
But on a kind of, like, five to seven day automated sequence or even a live launch, right, I’m definitely scoring certain actions they’re taking even if it’s just email opens. And once they cross a certain threshold, definitely taking that as a signal of intent and once again reaching out dynamically. Right? Saying, hey.
Notice that you’ve probably been, you know, watching this workshop or taking this action. Just wanna make sure you’re all set up. Let me know if you have any questions. Right?
So it’s essentially letting your marketing coach the conversion to whatever degree it can and then injecting those personal reach outs just at strategic touch points. And that’s just gonna look differently depending on what your bandwidth is, what your team looks like, what your lead flow looks like, but there’s always gonna be a way to at least make sure that your most high intent leads don’t get left to just the automated funnel. Does that make sense at a high level?
That does. Thank you. Yeah. If if the leads obviously, we want all these leads to convert. Mhmm. They should, as you said. If they don’t, what do you do with them after that forty eight hours?
Yeah. So there’s still, of course, like my sequences don’t just end at forty eight hours. Right? Usually, like, the evergreen funnels, when I’m trying to get them to take that next action, will be that standard five, seven, ten days, right, and different emails that have different angles, right, different approaches, you know, your typical, here are the questions other people who said yes asked, right, certain closing emails, certain urgency emails. So all that still plays out.
I’m just not relying on that to do all the work. Right? I’m really establishing as much one on one contact throughout that as possible.
Yeah. That’s awesome. Thanks so much, man. Appreciate it. Cool.
Yeah. My pleasure.
And I think I had the same same crib. Is that one, like, that collapses? Not crib. Sorry. Like, Ben.
It is. Yeah. Yeah. This is Yeah. This is the opposite. It’s also currently the, like, the bedroom for the baby right now.
Nice.
So I remember, like Yeah. My kid never actually used it except for one day when, like, I came home from work, and he used that plus, like, everything else he could find to barricade the doors and not let me in. So that was fun.
Marquette, man. Yikes.
Totally. Cool. Any other questions on this topic or any other topic?
Go ahead, Jess. You go first.
No. What he asked was my question, so that’s perfect.
I was just gonna say, what are the rest of the emails that come after that, and how are we thinking about them now versus what everybody was taught in twenty fourteen?
So Right.
Yeah. So So it’s always, like, assuming readiness and speed and movement is really kind of, like, the biggest change I’ve made in my own sequences even between now and twenty twenty. Right? It’s, like, just erring on the side of speed, not necessarily presumptuous.
Like, I’m not being obnoxious about it saying, like, you know, buy now, buy now, buy now. Right? But, like, assuming that I am meeting someone who is resourced and willing and desiring to move forward. Right?
So yeah.
And then, of course, like, the whole coaching of the conversion framework continues to play out. Right? It’s like, what can I assume about this person, right, who hasn’t taken that next action yet? Right?
And how can I coach them in that? So that’s essentially the sequence I would write after the main sales sequence is someone who said yes to this ad, right, opted in, opened up emails here, right, but didn’t take that action. What can I assume about them here? Right?
And that could be a form of a second chance email sequence. Right? Like, meeting them either in price objection, cost objection, time objection, you know, whatever it is. So yeah.
Like, I think one of one of the subject lines, like, yeah, one of the subject lines that worked really well, and I just keep reusing it because it’s so, like, multi multi usage, multipurpose is, like, you know, not a now thing, question mark. Right? Like, essentially taking that verbatim of, like, why someone wouldn’t take action now. Right?
And essentially reminding them, like, well, when I coach someone who thinks that this is not a now thing, I need to get them into the awareness that this being a later thing is more costly. Right? That it’s more of a now thing than they realize. Right?
That it won’t be as costly or time intensive to implement as they think. Right? So it’s essentially always where are they at now? Where are they at now?
Where are they at now? And how can I coach them through it?
I have a question.
What are the show up rates for webinars for, paid versus nonpaid?
So very broadly general general generally speaking.
Gosh. Like, I hesitate to even give, like, a standard, because it so depends on your relationship with the audience. Obviously, people who are coming from a warm list, whether it’s your, like, Instagram and people have been following you forever, or a cold Facebook ad, it’s gonna have totally different numbers. But you do wanna aim for somewhere into, like, twenty five to thirty percent for nonpaid.
That could be lower if it’s people, like, fresh off of a Facebook ad for sure.
And paid so paid, let me see. The last one we ran about, like, fifty to sixty percent if it was and that was at just ten bucks. It’s like a ten dollar workshop, and that literally doubled that conversion rate, right, of people showing up for it.
Yeah. And yeah. Anyway, I just I I love paid workshops now. I’ll just say that.
I love to say that. Yeah. Yeah. And what I love about the paid workshop model is versus the free workshop model.
So if on the free workshop model, you reach out with a one on one message, it feels more intrusive. Whereas on the paid, if it’s framed as a bonus, right, hybrid coaching, now it feels more valuable, and it is more valuable. So Yeah.
Wow. That’s awesome.
Yeah. Yep.
Thank you. My pleasure.
What an amazing book collection. I think you have at least two hundred and forty two there. Like, I’m just doing some rough math.
This is just one room, not including my Kindle stuff. I’m I’m a voracious reader.
Nice. Cool. Britney, I see your hand up.
Yeah.
Could you speak to what your favorite tech is right now to build your funnels? Are you building them yourself? Are you working with corporate clients who have their teams that you’re, you know, just then offloading the copy to? I’d kinda just like to know what people are using. What’s the what’s their favorite?
Yeah. Good question. Like, for any type of funnel in particular?
Not necessarily.
Mhmm.
Smaller clients who still like to essentially, like, do a lot of things themselves, simpler text stacks.
A lot of people have migrated off of ActiveCampaign onto, like, GoHighLevel and Kajabi and stuff like that.
Let me see. What are people using right now? Like I mean, it’s so varied.
HubSpot, I’ve always loved that for essentially, like, getting to the pipelines, getting just really clear tracking and really clear, notes on every lead that enters that system. That’s been phenomenal.
Typically, I don’t love managing HubSpot stuff myself.
But, yeah, most clients who have a good tech wizard on their team, amazing.
Let me see. What else?
Webinars have just like webinars are so varied. I like Zoom webinars personally. It just feels more familiar, less Internet marketing y marketing y. Yes.
Email marketing, I mean, ActiveCampaign, still use that quite a bit.
But, yeah, I don’t know. Yeah. It’s a mix.
Yeah. How are you happy with Go HighLevel when you use it? I mean, is anyone using HighLevel right now?
And I’m using it for some of my brands.
Yeah. Like, for the price point, I like it.
I have a really I mean, I’ll say I have a really good, like, Go high level designer automation person, so that really helps.
One of my, like, biggest complaints about it was, like, you know how, like, every page builder, like, makes you feel like, oh, that’s a Go high level page. Oh, that’s a ClickFunnels page. Like, that’s always been my biggest objection.
But, with a good designer, you’re definitely able to get, like, pages up to spec. So, like yeah. What I’ve been able to do with GoHighLevel is essentially, like, take pages that have been, like, custom built on WordPress or whatever, like, beautiful pages, and just tell my GoHighLevel person, like, can you recreate this, like, as close as possible? And that has been, like, an amazing hack.
So, yeah, I like it. Go high level has worked. I haven’t had too many, like, problems with it, and it’s definitely gotten the job done. But I also know other people who have complained about it being, like, unreliable or wonky, at times, but I just haven’t really, yeah, I haven’t really kind of fallen into that problem yet myself.
For clients that are, you know, doing around twenty million a year, so they’re kind of not like a small start up or Mhmm. Whatever. I guess, what tech would you recommend for them if they’re not already if they don’t already have, like, an in house thing?
Oh, for what kind of marketing?
Like, a utilities provider, multifamily. So, essentially, they would be targeting managers of multifamily who are in charge of utility billing.
Okay.
I mean, at that level, probably something like HubSpot, probably something really robust.
I definitely wouldn’t mess around with, like, a go high level at that level Go high level at that level.
No. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t yeah. Yep.
Mhmm.
Thanks.
Of course.
I also have clients, like, totally different space. Right? But, like, even in that, like, eight figure range, like, I have clients who literally work with GoHighLevel and Instagram. Right?
And that’s their entire tech stack. So, yeah, it really depends on, like, where are your leads coming from, what that sales process is, what those, like, sales cycles are, and how much information needs to be, like, collected, gathered, stored, and acted upon throughout that cycle. So that’s probably the bigger determinant than, strictly revenue levels. But yeah.
I’m just finding that I I’m having good success finding the client. I have a strong understanding of the strategy, but then the tech, like, it just all goes to hell. So I’m just trying to figure out, like, how to what do I need to learn about that aspect so that I can be more Mhmm. Throughout the whole process, you know, because it’s like, you don’t delay and just the strategy doesn’t matter. Right?
To what degree do you feel like you need to be taking ownership of the tech and the tech choices?
I guess that’s sort of what I’m trying to figure out. Like, I have my my clients right now are sort of all the way from very small startup to that twenty million ish a year in revenue. And so I’m just trying to figure out how to standardize an offer that I can feel great about without Mhmm. Stress of things not working.
Yeah. Totally.
In general, like, do you consider yourself, like, pretty techie? Do you enjoy learning different systems and implementing on that level?
I don’t love it, but I’m facing the facts. Right? Like, I like being competent. So, yeah, I would prefer to stay in strategy messaging word land all day long.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
But I just think the more you know, it’s just I’d like to be fluid.
Totally.
I mean, there are a lot of people who, like, obviously thrive as automation experts that love working in those systems. Right?
These are good friends to have nearby for sure.
I could certainly see possibilities, right, of your product as services and your offerings having with tech support and implementation and without. Right?
And the ones with having collaborations, having a certain partner that fulfills on that might help keep you in the zone of what you’re really good at, because it could take a lot of energy and a lot of time and a lot of, like, learning and messing around time to get, quote, unquote, masterful at these systems. Right? And these systems, of course, change from client to client, so it might be a inevitable game.
Collaborating, and that’s where I’m suffering a little bit is because I thought anyway, I just need to make a switch with the person I’m collaborating with probably. Because I don’t wanna do it, but I need to know enough about it that I’m Mhmm.
Yeah. For sure.
Makes sense. What Well, let me know if ever there’s, like, any systems you’re looking for, like, a certain, tech collaborator on, because I know, you know, I know a lot of people who work with IKEA or ActiveCampaign or GoHighLevel.
But, yeah, keep me posted for sure.
Cool. Joseph.
I’m back. If, and if so, yeah, my my question is, how do you how are you optimizing your funnel these days?
And if it’s easier to just, like, send me to a resource that you have, like Mhmm.
That’s totally cool too.
But but yeah. Because you mentioned, like, you are once someone doesn’t, like if they don’t necessarily act on the offer right away, you know, like, you’re still selling them. You’re dropping them into your flow. You’re still testing different angles and things. So how are you yeah. What is optimizing your funnel look like for you?
Yeah. That’s a really good question.
Oh, so many different, like, competing ideologies around this. One thing that I’ll always ask first is you know? I I run a lot of, like, cold traffic from, like, ads, and I’ll always look back at that ad level of, like, am I targeting someone who is definitely problem aware, definitely motivated, and seeking a solution? Right? So those are the first questions I’ll ask myself, and sometimes I’ll so the annoying thing there is sometimes, like, the ad creatives that are less direct in that languaging will perform better and get lower CPLs than the ones that are, like, really hard and direct about, like, this is what you’re facing and very, like, presumptive of that.
But the ones that are looser perform less well down funnel. Right? So one of the places I’ll optimize is essentially, like, if I know that I have something here. Right?
If I’ve gotten sales, right, and I’ve gone through an exercise of what is true about the people who said yes, essentially creating, like, an anatomy of a buyer. Not a hypothesis, but these are my actuals. These are people who bought. I will reverse engineer who they are and put that top of funnel, right, and just try to get more people into there.
So that’s typically it’s like I tend to optimize back at the top always. I don’t mess around a lot on the in betweens until I’ve really optimized my top funnel to make sure I’m getting the right people in that even give me right data and not false negatives. Right? Like, if my sales page is converting at sub one percent, but I don’t even have the right people coming in on it, then my sales page isn’t actually converting at one percent.
Right? And I’ve seen way too many people spend a lot of time trying to, like, you know, change the headline, change the price point, change, like, everything about their sales page when, like, yeah. Most of the time, it’s a targeting targeting thing, in my view, at least. That’s, that’s one perspective out of one perspective out of possibly many.
But, yeah.
Oh, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.
Mhmm.
Yeah. I know, like, during a freelance intensive optimization came up a little bit, and one of the things Joe was talking about was, like like, you know, cut one one possible rule of thumb is starting at the, you know, closest to the actual conversion and, like, working backwards from there. But what you’re saying makes a lot of sense too, certainly, especially for ad campaigns.
Mhmm.
But, yeah, that’s that’s helpful. Thanks.
Yeah. No problem. Like, I’ve seen the same sales page convert at sub one percent, convert at, you know, three to five percent just by changing targeting. Right? So it’s like Wow. I know.
Yeah. It’s like and it makes total sense. Right? It’s like Yeah. Like, in the real world, like, you know, if you just have the wrong people walking into your store, you could have the best salespeople there.
Right? You could have, like, the best displays, the best everything. And yeah, so just dialing in the precision on those top of funnel ads, paying a getting a little less concerned about your CPLs, especially at the beginning, like your cost per leads. Like, a lot of, like, people will optimize for lower CPLs, right, which makes sense because you don’t wanna see so many dollars, like, flying out the window there.
But, yeah, I’d say, like, the place I have the most fun optimizing is just that ad creative, that ad copy. Right? Making it so direct, so clear, so like, it’s either gonna be hyper relevant or hyper irrelevant. But it gives me the confidence that everyone coming into that ecosystem is ready for a conversation about it, right, has this problem that I’m so specifically and presumptively talking about, right, and is so ready to move forward.
So, yeah, that’s my hack for that.
Yeah. I love that. That’s awesome.
Cool.
Yeah. Dane Kennedy used to say that all the time. The first step was the market.
Yeah.
You know, he says the market, the message match.
Right? He always says the first step is the market.
He said it with a better mustache too, I think. Like, list offer copy. Indeed. It always comes back down to, like, these fundamentals at the end of the day.
But, yeah, what I love about, like, list when it comes to, quote, unquote, cold traffic. Right? And I don’t like, cold is such a vague term, but, like, yeah, you get to choose your list, right, essentially with ads.
You don’t get to choose your list with a general newsletter. You don’t really get to choose your list with a website. Right? People, you know, find you in different ways. But you get to choose your list with ads based on, you know, your ad creative. So, yeah, it’s fun.
Cool. Cool. Are we complete for today?
Sweet. Britney, I love your, cupboard handles. I don’t know why they’re catching my eye.
Thanks. Random thing.
I think, restoration, maybe.
Sounds good.
Yeah. Is that your is that your office, Britney? Yeah.
I hope it’s nice.
Nice.
Thanks. Hope everyone’s having a good New Year. Appreciate the support.
Yeah. Appreciate y’all showing up for this one on January second. Fun little crew. And, yeah, have an amazing rest of the week, and I’ll catch you soon.
Thanks.
Thanks so much, Ryan.
No problem. Bye.
You guys.
Transcript
Sweet. Alright. We’re gonna dive in. So this is, like, our first call post all that glorious goal setting we did back in December.
December. Yeah. How is that for everybody? Any, like, lingering questions from the goal setting marathon?
Anything to share there?
I think it was good because now, you know, how everyone’s, oh, New Year’s resolutions. You know? I’ve already had it all set, and I’m just rolling right into it.
So Sweet.
Amazing. Beautiful.
My mind is racing.
I know the feeling.
Cool. Sweet. Alright. Let’s dive in. I’m gonna pull up this keynote.
Gosh. You take, like, ten days off from Zoom calls, and you get so rusty, and you forget where the share button is. It’s like relearning tech.
There we go.
Sweet. Before I kick it, who here has taken either ten x launches or ten x sales pages before?
Sweet. We got a few hands up. Sweet. Alright. So definitely not a prerequisite, but, good to know.
So this is our first session of January. It’s gonna be all about engaging and nurturing new leads. This one is all about how to do so with what is affectionately known as the coaching of the conversion method and a very specific confirmation email template that y’all, may have already seen it in the workbook. If not, we’ll see momentarily.
So super, super brief coaching the conversion primer. This is something I’ve typically taught in, like, you know, hour long plus sessions. So this is the two minute version of it. But, essentially, it goes like this.
The version of your prospect who opted in to your funnel, to your lead magnet, to whatever it is that brought them into your ecosystem is not the same version that says yes to your core offer. Right? And there are a series of milestones, which may come in the form of certain beliefs that they now have, certain states, things they now feel, whether that is feeling encouraged, empowered, optimistic, certain awarenesses, things they are aware of now that they weren’t aware of a few minutes ago or a few weeks a few weeks ago and certain micro actions that they’ve taken. And all these things are needed to bridge what I call a pre customer, someone who comes into your ecosystem into a customer, someone who is a natural yes to your thing and your marketing and the messaging structures you use within it are essentially tools to bridge the gap via a process that we call coaching the conversion.
I said we call coaching the conversion, but I’m really speak for myself.
One second.
Do not eat almond before a call. Those things get stuck in, like I’m just gonna call it the tracheal cavity cavity tracheal cavity as if I’ve taken premed classes, which I haven’t. I don’t know. I think I totally made up made that up. The tracheal cavity.
Cool. So I have an unreasonable completely unreasonable because it’s impossible, but it’s an unreasonable belief that every lead who enters a conversion ecosystem, aka funnel, should convert. Like, I always get surprised. I’m like, why isn’t everyone who’s coming into this funnel converting?
It makes no sense to me. So I have this unreasonable belief that everyone who comes into our funnel, especially if we’ve done our job in targeting that top of funnel effectively, targeting people who actually have that moment of high ascension, that problem we’re talking about, people who truly desire that solution we’re talking about, I have this unreasonable belief that absolutely everybody should convert, and I get, like, almost insulted when one person doesn’t buy. And one on one sales tells us that, yeah, we should raise our standards. Thirty to sixty percent should be expected.
Right? This is what a typical one on one salesperson will convert out of warm leads. Right?
So that is a far cry from, I don’t know, the one to three percent that, you know, automated funnels or non one on one sales funnels produce that.
So this is a classic case of aim for ten x, right, and be cool with two to three x of typical conversion rates. Right? And this is essentially where the whole coaching to conversion method was birthed from, was me listening to a ton of recordings from one on one salespeople converting at upwards of fifty percent and being like, dang. Wouldn’t it be cool if we could do that at scale? Like, why should we be settling for one to three percent when people who are in these dynamic one on one scenarios with the same type of leads that our marketing is attracting are closing at thirty, fifty, sixty percent.
So coaching the conversion, it plays out across different assets, different types of funnels.
Ten x launches was the first course we released on it, which essentially coached the conversion through a launch. Someone enters your launch. They go through the prelaunch. They go through the actual launch. The cart closed, and we’re coaching different states, awarenesses, beliefs throughout that.
Ten x sales pages, which you all have access to, coaches the conversion vertically. Right? Pre customer, someone who lands on your page, sees the hero section. Customer, someone who gets to the end of it, clicks buy now. Right? So that is coaching the conversion vertically.
Sales conversation, that’s another type of ecosystem. Engineering the enrollment is another course that teaches that. So coaching the conversion plays out across multiple different types of ecosystems, but they all involve the same process of digging into the very basic stuff. Right?
Where are they now? Pre customer. And as a marketer, you get to decide this to some extent through your targeting, which I think is an amazing thing. We get to define our pre customer.
How cool is that? Where do they need to be for a yes to be natural? Right? This is our customer.
This is our voice of customer research. What were those final states, those final awarenesses? What was the energy? What was the feeling of someone who said yes?
Right? What did they believe before they said yes? So we get to actually reverse engineer this. And how can I facilitate that transformation at scale?
And none of this is guesswork. Right? We have the data on the anatomy of what a customer is. We get to target who our pre customer is.
Right? And, therefore, we get to make certain hypotheses of what that transformation is and attempt to do it at scale. So coaching the conversion with new leads, fresh leads via email, I’d venture to say, is one of the most important conversion contacts. And your confirmation slash welcome email will nearly almost always be the most highly opened email, like, out of all the emails in your system.
Like, you could go into your ActiveCampaign. That first email that gets sent is typically the one that’s gonna have the highest open rate, except for the ones with the click baity subject lines that, you know I don’t know. I’ve seen some pretty good click baity emails in my time. But, yeah, you’re gonna get a lot of eyeballs on this, a lot of attention and awareness on this one.
Definitely a lot more in email one than email number two, so it’s it’s gotta pull its weight. It’s gotta earn its real estate in your funnel. It will also set the tone of your relationship with your prospect. It’s typically where they decide if you’re gonna be the friend zoned person, the person who puts out great content that they love, the person who sends great newsletters but they never actually buy from, or the person who gets fiercely compensated.
So this is really a big tone setter in that regard.
Alright. Some high level principles when it comes to coaching, the conversion, and a confirmation email. So the more specific and intent based the opt in, the easier it is to coach the next step. And I’ll give you some really clear examples.
So if someone opts in for a workshop called how to make ten k per month as a freelancer in twenty twenty five, that’s excellent. Right? You know their goal. You know what they’re signing up for.
Versus a lead magnet on things every copywriter should know about selling. That’s great. That’s kind of mid. That’s middle ground.
Versus the best copywriter newsletter ever. Right? Vague, general, broad. You have no way of knowing who that pre customer is when they opt in for that.
Right?
So in my experience, a paid low ticket opt in, even if it’s a workshop that costs five dollars, will always almost always signal stronger intent and commitment than a free webinar or a free report. That’s why I love, love, love, love, love implementing and working with paid low ticket workshops.
Even things that people have typically used for free, I love just making it paid. It helps us clearly define who that pre customer is when someone actually takes out their credit card to even exchange five bucks.
One thing I will note, after years of trying to get people to acknowledge this fact, right, it is almost impossible to coach the conversion off of a general newsletter opt in. Right? Like, it can’t be done. There are too many assumptions and stretches you’re making on a general newsletter opt in.
So before you do that, you definitely need to segment that list, segment those leads, get them to raise their hand, and define themselves as as a certain type of pre customer. Right? So we do have templates for that. I think I taught this inside, CSP early in twenty twenty four.
But you could definitely look for the coffee date email template. That’s a really good one for segmenting your list and getting general opt ins to define themselves as something more specific where you can then coach the conversion in a more intentional and direct way.
And this is the biggest principle.
Essentially, the better your top of funnel targeting is, especially via ad creative. If you’re ad creative, if your Instagram reels, if your LinkedIn post could speak so specifically, right, to that top of funnel avatar, the more conversion milestones will heart will have already been met. So a conversion milestone, for example, is someone having a moment of high attention. Right? Being aware of a moment that they no longer want to experience with respects to that problem.
Another milestone is them being aware of certain solutions. Another milestone is them having tried certain things that haven’t worked. Right?
The more you can meet someone who’s already gone through that, the less you actually have to coach, the less steps within that journey that your marketing is responsible to lead them through. And it is really expensive and really time consuming to lead someone through an entire journey. Right? So the biggest hack you can give yourself is to begin that journey, begin that pre customer journey a little further down that line. Right? And your top of funnel targeting, the ad creative, the LinkedIn post, the Instagram reel is essentially what makes your copy have to work less hard down the line.
So your tofu targeting, in a perfect world, this is the first thing I would audit right before I write any email sequence for anybody. Right? Is are we making sure that we are bringing the right people into this funnel? And by right people, not just meaning people who have this problem, but people who are aware of it.
Right? I’m aware, moment of high tension, things that they absolutely no longer want to experience again in their lifetimes, that they have a known and desired outcome and resonate with what I call the moment of heightened pleasure. They know what success looks like, and they’re committed to it because they have that frustration and confusion within that gap. So this is all super basic, but it’s all worth returning to when it comes to our top of funnel targeting.
Right? The more of these boxes we could check off and the more intense these things are true for the people we’re targeting, the less hard our copy is gonna have to work. So when this is true, when we’ve checked these boxes, when our top of funnel marketing is dialed in, then your confirmation email can coach what I call the big three. But before we get into that, few quick rules more than ever.
Forget everything you’ve learned about nurturing in twenty twenty fourteen when the world moves slower and meta algorithms didn’t show your prospect ads for your competitors three minutes later. So this is a thing now more than ever. Now that the algorithms for ad platforms are getting so smart and so dialed in, Essentially, if someone opts in to your lead magnet, opts into your workshop, they’re going to be getting ads for your competitors a few minutes later on their feeds. Right?
So this is permission to move faster than you would otherwise. Right? Most marketers think they need to warm up cold leads, quote, unquote, when in reality, if they’ve targeted their top of funnel properly, they need to keep warm leads hot and use that fire to coach progress towards a solution. So always on the side of assuming movement and readiness and siding with speed.
Once again, time delay stagnancy is your enemy, especially when your prospect, your leads are gonna be getting presented other options, other solutions from your competitors literally within seconds or minutes. So unless your primary goal is to build a media company or a newsletter or an influencer brand, do not lead with your backstory. Email one shouldn’t just be, you know, an introduction about you. It shouldn’t just be authority content that is disconnected to the problem that the top of funnel piece or content or ad suggested that they have.
Right? So a very easy hack here to kinda balance the two. I love putting any authority content, whether it’s, like, books you’ve written or podcasts you’ve appeared on, or any other type of, like, backstory stuff you have in your email signature. That way you have, like, the passive credibility and authority content that they could just kind of, like, click through if they truly desire that.
But once they enter your funnel, if you’ve done your targeting right, you’re really trying to establish movement towards that end state.
So the big three, you can think of this big three as a source code, right, where you can use any tactic, any strategy, any messaging structure within your arsenal to coach them. It’s essentially these are three milestones, three states that you get to coach, and you get to use the tools available to you. You get to get creative about how you structure emails as long as they’re establishing these three. So the first one is coaching relevance because these are a few of the questions your prospect is gonna ask immediately, whether they’re consciously asking themselves this in their head or they are subconsciously making sure there’s a match here. Right? Am I in the right spot?
Is this message mirroring back my exact moment of highest tension that I want to escape? Is this relevant?
Is this message mirroring back the moment of heightened pleasure or moment of highest pleasure I want to achieve?
Is this message meeting me in what I’ve already done, tried, and failed at? And is this message pointing to an offer, opportunity, or next step that gives me new hope? Right? So if you get a yes to all five of these, you have coached relevance, and you need to coach this right off the bat. Do not waste time. Do not send out any other messaging, propping yourself up as an authority, positioning your brand until you’ve coached relevance.
Next is resonance. Right? Do they resonate with you, with your assessment of them, with your diagnosis of the problem, with your unique solution, and with your understanding and empathy of the entire situational gestalt? So one of the things I love to do in my marketing is talking about the stakes involved, the second degree effects of the main problem, right, the secret fears that they have around it. So really get dimensional about how problems appear in people’s lives, right, and get resonance around what you are mirroring back to them. And then the most important is coaching response ability, their ability to respond, their willingness to respond.
Making a purchase, saying yes, is an action. That is a response. Right? If we could get them to start taking microactions right away, ascending in the intimacy between what you’re doing, right, and them.
Right? So that could look like watching a paid workshop that they just bought. Right? That could mean engaging in a direct message or an Instagram chat or taking an assessment via score app or interact or a quiz or replying to a personal video message or replying to the email or booking call.
Essentially, what we are coaching on that very first email is can we get them to take that next action with us. Right? Not later, not on email number two when open rates have gone down anywhere between thirty thirty to fifty percent, but can we get can we get that next monumental action right here on the first email? So this is a little bit of extra theory.
This is something I created, like, a few years ago in a program that was called automated in intimacy. I can’t use that anymore because AI has totally taken on different dimensions. But, essentially, we’re trying to move people to this top right quadrant. Right?
The majority of sales happen as touch points ascend in intimacy and dynamism. Right? So we have a lot of marketing that exists in the bottom left quadrant. This is static.
It’s a one way dialogue. Right? And it’s impersonal. It’s one to many. But the more we move to that top right, the more we see higher and higher conversion rates.
Right? So this is just a little bit of an extra framework to see if you can get that next touch point to be more intimate than their initial one. Can you get any form of two way dialogue, dynamic dialogue?
And, essentially, that is one way to coach the conversion via greater intimacy.
So let’s put it all together. This is called the perfect confirmation email template, and it’s really simple. It’s, like, two hundred and fifty words that incorporates all this, you know, sciency stuff. It’s not even sciency.
I don’t even know what to call it. But, yeah, this is what incorporates everything we just talked about. So step one is to confirm and celebrate the opt in action or the event, right, to just mirroring back the action they just took. So this is one I wrote recently for a paid workshop paid workshop opt in.
That’s right. Cool. So hey. And then I blanked out the name. My team just nudged me to let me know you claimed a spot in the Art Money Power workshop.
Right? So just mirroring back what they just did. Now we have this whole section on coaching relevancy, which probably means so that’s a really good segue into this section for coaching relevancy.
That like the five hundred plus others who’ve said, hell yes, and now we mirror back. Right? Who they are. You’re an established fine artist who wants to sell more art pieces in twenty twenty five at higher prices.
That has you proving all dem doubters wrong as you sign a lease for that industrial loft with the exposed brick. Right? Little moment of highest pleasure there. It also means that you’re probably so effing done with trying to prove yourself to the leeches of the industry.
So moment of highest tension stuff. The agents who don’t return your calls. The art galleries who take a crazy cut and return your untold pieces with nasty stains and, oh my god, are there someone’s greasy ass fingerprints. Right?
Real moment of highest tension information we get from our voice of customer data. The art contest judged by other grad school burnouts who probably chat GPT their feedback without even looking because what they wrote makes no effing sense, and all the other disempowering ways the pick me, choose me, love me art industry has robbed you of your profits and your power.
So after reading this, like, section of maybe a hundred and a hundred and fifty words, right, there is zero chance anyone reading this would find this would essentially not know whether this was relevant for them. It’s either gonna be hyper relevant, like hyper agreement, or very clear that this isn’t for them. Right? So this is about coaching relevancy.
Next, coaching resonance. So a lot of this will have already established some resonance, but we wanna create even more resonance right around the new way of doing things. So if you caught yourself nodding, then you probably also be beyond stoked to learn and apply the same direct to customer luxury strategies that my students are using to attract kind collectors, cut out the middleman, and cash five bigger checks on the regular while finally knowing they’ve made it. Right?
So resonance around their end goal, resonance around the method for doing it. And then we coach responsibility, encouraging that next step, that next ascension on that paid spectrum or that paid, framework that we just went through. Now here’s the deal. If you close this email, then that dream remains just that, a dream.
Fun to pay and should be to live. But if this whole combo feels hyper relevant and you’re committed to making twenty twin twenty twenty five a living master masterpiece, then I highly recommend that you, one, watch the art money power workshop right away. So that is one form of coaching responsibility. And then the next, DM me power on Instagram to kick start your seventy two hour hybrid coaching and get a little unannounced bonus gift.
Trust me. You’ll love it. So I love adding a little bit of a teaser, a little unexpected gift for them taking an action that has sent them on the intimacy scale. So this is one tactic if you’re doing any form of evergreen workshops, evergreen webinars that I absolutely love.
So on the page or the workshop, one of the bonuses is called hybrid coaching. Right? So we acknowledge that this is prerecorded.
And because they can’t answer questions live, part of it the bonus they get is they get seventy two hours of q and a and hybrid coaching with this person and her team. Right? So this is a way to engage that level of intimacy and real time coaching even within an evergreen workshop.
I’m crazy passionate about helping fine artists like you reclaim their power, dignity, and profit from traditional art establishment as long as you’re all in, I’m all in with you. Cool. So that is the template. Really simple, and it’s pulling a lot of weight in relatively little words.
And, yeah, this is where we really take advantage of the fact that this first email is going to be the most opened, and we get right to the point. We coach relevancy. We coach resonance, and this is really our main goal. Our main goal is to initiate that one on one chat right off the bat, to not waste time with that because we know that if we can get a lead to engage one on one with this coach and with her team, that the likelihood of that lead converting and moving to that final conversion is gonna be that much higher.
Cool. I think that’s all we got. So I’m gonna stop my share and open the floor for any questions, any, brainstorms you all wanna have about how you might apply this in your own business for your own funnels or for funnels you’re working on per client.
Right. Where can I find the workbook?
Did you get a did you get a copy of it in your email yet?
I didn’t even look at my email. I have to see. Yeah.
It’s possible it got sent out. If not, Okay. And I could probably let me see if I can just download a copy.
No. Message me on Slack if you can access it, and I should be able to, drop a file for you. Cool.
Sure.
No problem. Cody.
Okay. So with that template you just showed us, is that supposed to be in this workbook, or is that somewhere else?
That is supposed to be in the workbook. Yeah.
Okay. Because I’m looking at the workbook, and I don’t see it in here.
Alright. So it’s possible that an updated version just didn’t get updated, like, while the crew was on holiday break.
But Alright.
What I can definitely do is, yeah, I’ll download it, copy of it, and I’ll send it to you over on Slack.
Awesome. Thanks.
Cool. Jess?
Okay. I love this. One of the things that I’ve been noodling on while you were talking was, with the diagnostic.
Mhmm.
And so if you were running, like, a group diagnostic, and let’s say you’re running it as, like, a webinar, you know, you start collecting sign ups, like, a week out or something. What would you recommend that you put in the, like, the responsibility of, like, here’s what I need you to do? Like, what’s that action that you would recommend that we prompt them with?
Right. So if they’ve already opted in for a webinar, that would go through that. Right?
Mhmm.
That’s a good question. Right? So, like, if there is an assessment, like, a self assessment that they could go through beforehand, like, essentially, you could take parts of what you go through on that webinar and just give them a faster self assessment version of it, right, of, like Mhmm. If this is something that you just got their attention with, because it’s you’re doing this live, right, the webinar?
Yeah.
Right.
So one thing you wanna defend against on live webinars, right, is, like, people being really aware and really kind of, like, motivated to solve it in the moment they sign up, and then there’s this gap and this lag and life happens. Right? So, essentially, it’s kind of like a skip the line type thing. Right? It’s like, take this assess take this assessment here. If you see your own gaps and wanna talk about it, like, send over your results.
So, yeah, it’s like, take this assessment, and let me know, like, where you scored, where you noticed that you’re a little weaker. Right? And we can kick start that conversation sooner.
I like that. And because one of the things I think that was really impactful for me when I did Jo’s assessment thing was, like, her walking through it and explaining it all. And I feel like, especially with the diagnostic, I don’t know that it would have and, obviously, I don’t have, like, the assessment, but I feel like the the walking it through and explaining it, it would almost have to be, like, instead of showing up live to the webinar, here’s a recording of me, like, walking you through it, and then why would they show up live.
So I’m wondering if what are your thoughts on asking for, like, a DM or a reply to be like, what is, like, your experience with x, y, and zed problem to, a, get some, like, VOC, but then to also open up that conversation, like, in the upper quadrant there of, like, the sales quadrant that you shared.
Yeah. I think it’s a great idea. I think anything you could do to get that one on one conversation right away from that moment of I’ll I’ll call it a moment of heightened receptivity. Right?
They just saw your webinar landing page. It resonated. They’re like, yes to this. They signed up.
You’re top of mind in that moment. If they’re able to take that next action to ascend in the intimacy scale right there and then, like, even if it’s a button on your landing page around, like, you know, send me a quick DM, like, letting me know what inspired. Like, there’s the surveys we have sometimes on landing pages of, like, what inspired you to do this thing. I prefer, like, just a bun.
Like, tell me. Right, at this stage of our business when we’re making those sales. Like, that doesn’t need to go through SurveyMonkey. Like, just send that straight to my inbox so that we can have that conversation now.
There’s this, it’s, like, so stupid symbol, and it works so well. I can’t remember who coined it, but it’s like I think it was, like, called the non webinar webinar or the webinar that doesn’t matter. And it was, like, someone who is running webinar funnels just for the purpose of starting DM conversations, and it’s almost like the webinar itself didn’t even matter. Right?
And, of course, it did matter. There was a legit webinar there. But the whole purpose was, like, sign up for the webinar. You know you have someone who is resonating with the messaging around the webinar, and then just get them into that one on one conversation right away.
Right? Like, what inspired you to join? Right? Like, where do you think you might be weak when it comes to this?
Right? And get into that exploratory conversation.
And that person had more conversions happening from people who didn’t even see the webinar. Right? It was just a right? So don’t insist on just because we’ve crafted these, like, amazing webinars and workshops with all the right diagnostics, like, don’t insist on that being the only way someone could come to work with you. Right? Mhmm. Like yeah.
Okay. Cool. Thank you. And I have another question, but I’ll let Joseph go. And if there’s time, I’ll ask another.
For sure.
Thanks, Joseph.
Go for it, Joseph.
Ryan, that was awesome.
So how like, what does planning your marketing like, your funnel automation look like now? Like, considering what you like like like you said, you know, like, your training has completely changed.
And today, you showed us that, like, that initial first email.
Mhmm. But I guess what does, like, what does planning the automation look like like for you now? Or, like, do or does the workbook cover that?
So it doesn’t go deeper than this template. So Okay. I mean, I could go through kinda, like, what my basic funnels look like. Right? Or we could make it more specific to something you’re working on. Do you have a preference on that?
Or do you wanna just, like For now, if you can just skip the sketch of, like, what your kind of basic information is now because I don’t have something specific at the moment.
Yeah. So, yeah, I tell you, a lot of it still comes back to this concept of automated intimacy that was the theme of a program I created a few years ago. And it’s essentially you have your emails, which are I call them, like, marketing scaffolding. Right?
They’re gonna do what they do. Right? But I can’t assume that my email sequence is going to coach that whole conversion. Right?
Like, you can’t assume someone’s gonna open up every email. Right? And, like, in twenty fifteen, people would say, like, in email number one, I’m gonna coach this belief. In email two, this one.
In email three, I’m gonna give them the FAQ. Right? And there’s this, like, weird assumption that someone’s actually reading through everything lit in a linear order. Right?
So, essentially, what my marketing looks like right now is the first forty eight hours are when I’m really trying to get that ascension right into a one on one conversation.
There’s been a big shift from, once again, like, free webinars and free lead magnets to paid even if it’s, like, really low ticket and essentially trying to get that first contact via myself one on one or someone on my team one on one to talk to that lead within the first day or two, even in a very, like, general wanna make sure you have everything set up. Right?
And the quicker I could get engaged in a real dynamic conversation, essentially, the better. So another way this is done, lead scoring used to be a really big piece part of this. It still is for clients who have a lot bigger lead flow.
But on a kind of, like, five to seven day automated sequence or even a live launch, right, I’m definitely scoring certain actions they’re taking even if it’s just email opens. And once they cross a certain threshold, definitely taking that as a signal of intent and once again reaching out dynamically. Right? Saying, hey.
Notice that you’ve probably been, you know, watching this workshop or taking this action. Just wanna make sure you’re all set up. Let me know if you have any questions. Right?
So it’s essentially letting your marketing coach the conversion to whatever degree it can and then injecting those personal reach outs just at strategic touch points. And that’s just gonna look differently depending on what your bandwidth is, what your team looks like, what your lead flow looks like, but there’s always gonna be a way to at least make sure that your most high intent leads don’t get left to just the automated funnel. Does that make sense at a high level?
That does. Thank you. Yeah. If if the leads obviously, we want all these leads to convert. Mhmm. They should, as you said. If they don’t, what do you do with them after that forty eight hours?
Yeah. So there’s still, of course, like my sequences don’t just end at forty eight hours. Right? Usually, like, the evergreen funnels, when I’m trying to get them to take that next action, will be that standard five, seven, ten days, right, and different emails that have different angles, right, different approaches, you know, your typical, here are the questions other people who said yes asked, right, certain closing emails, certain urgency emails. So all that still plays out.
I’m just not relying on that to do all the work. Right? I’m really establishing as much one on one contact throughout that as possible.
Yeah. That’s awesome. Thanks so much, man. Appreciate it. Cool.
Yeah. My pleasure.
And I think I had the same same crib. Is that one, like, that collapses? Not crib. Sorry. Like, Ben.
It is. Yeah. Yeah. This is Yeah. This is the opposite. It’s also currently the, like, the bedroom for the baby right now.
Nice.
So I remember, like Yeah. My kid never actually used it except for one day when, like, I came home from work, and he used that plus, like, everything else he could find to barricade the doors and not let me in. So that was fun.
Marquette, man. Yikes.
Totally. Cool. Any other questions on this topic or any other topic?
Go ahead, Jess. You go first.
No. What he asked was my question, so that’s perfect.
I was just gonna say, what are the rest of the emails that come after that, and how are we thinking about them now versus what everybody was taught in twenty fourteen?
So Right.
Yeah. So So it’s always, like, assuming readiness and speed and movement is really kind of, like, the biggest change I’ve made in my own sequences even between now and twenty twenty. Right? It’s, like, just erring on the side of speed, not necessarily presumptuous.
Like, I’m not being obnoxious about it saying, like, you know, buy now, buy now, buy now. Right? But, like, assuming that I am meeting someone who is resourced and willing and desiring to move forward. Right?
So yeah.
And then, of course, like, the whole coaching of the conversion framework continues to play out. Right? It’s like, what can I assume about this person, right, who hasn’t taken that next action yet? Right?
And how can I coach them in that? So that’s essentially the sequence I would write after the main sales sequence is someone who said yes to this ad, right, opted in, opened up emails here, right, but didn’t take that action. What can I assume about them here? Right?
And that could be a form of a second chance email sequence. Right? Like, meeting them either in price objection, cost objection, time objection, you know, whatever it is. So yeah.
Like, I think one of one of the subject lines, like, yeah, one of the subject lines that worked really well, and I just keep reusing it because it’s so, like, multi multi usage, multipurpose is, like, you know, not a now thing, question mark. Right? Like, essentially taking that verbatim of, like, why someone wouldn’t take action now. Right?
And essentially reminding them, like, well, when I coach someone who thinks that this is not a now thing, I need to get them into the awareness that this being a later thing is more costly. Right? That it’s more of a now thing than they realize. Right?
That it won’t be as costly or time intensive to implement as they think. Right? So it’s essentially always where are they at now? Where are they at now?
Where are they at now? And how can I coach them through it?
I have a question.
What are the show up rates for webinars for, paid versus nonpaid?
So very broadly general general generally speaking.
Gosh. Like, I hesitate to even give, like, a standard, because it so depends on your relationship with the audience. Obviously, people who are coming from a warm list, whether it’s your, like, Instagram and people have been following you forever, or a cold Facebook ad, it’s gonna have totally different numbers. But you do wanna aim for somewhere into, like, twenty five to thirty percent for nonpaid.
That could be lower if it’s people, like, fresh off of a Facebook ad for sure.
And paid so paid, let me see. The last one we ran about, like, fifty to sixty percent if it was and that was at just ten bucks. It’s like a ten dollar workshop, and that literally doubled that conversion rate, right, of people showing up for it.
Yeah. And yeah. Anyway, I just I I love paid workshops now. I’ll just say that.
I love to say that. Yeah. Yeah. And what I love about the paid workshop model is versus the free workshop model.
So if on the free workshop model, you reach out with a one on one message, it feels more intrusive. Whereas on the paid, if it’s framed as a bonus, right, hybrid coaching, now it feels more valuable, and it is more valuable. So Yeah.
Wow. That’s awesome.
Yeah. Yep.
Thank you. My pleasure.
What an amazing book collection. I think you have at least two hundred and forty two there. Like, I’m just doing some rough math.
This is just one room, not including my Kindle stuff. I’m I’m a voracious reader.
Nice. Cool. Britney, I see your hand up.
Yeah.
Could you speak to what your favorite tech is right now to build your funnels? Are you building them yourself? Are you working with corporate clients who have their teams that you’re, you know, just then offloading the copy to? I’d kinda just like to know what people are using. What’s the what’s their favorite?
Yeah. Good question. Like, for any type of funnel in particular?
Not necessarily.
Mhmm.
Smaller clients who still like to essentially, like, do a lot of things themselves, simpler text stacks.
A lot of people have migrated off of ActiveCampaign onto, like, GoHighLevel and Kajabi and stuff like that.
Let me see. What are people using right now? Like I mean, it’s so varied.
HubSpot, I’ve always loved that for essentially, like, getting to the pipelines, getting just really clear tracking and really clear, notes on every lead that enters that system. That’s been phenomenal.
Typically, I don’t love managing HubSpot stuff myself.
But, yeah, most clients who have a good tech wizard on their team, amazing.
Let me see. What else?
Webinars have just like webinars are so varied. I like Zoom webinars personally. It just feels more familiar, less Internet marketing y marketing y. Yes.
Email marketing, I mean, ActiveCampaign, still use that quite a bit.
But, yeah, I don’t know. Yeah. It’s a mix.
Yeah. How are you happy with Go HighLevel when you use it? I mean, is anyone using HighLevel right now?
And I’m using it for some of my brands.
Yeah. Like, for the price point, I like it.
I have a really I mean, I’ll say I have a really good, like, Go high level designer automation person, so that really helps.
One of my, like, biggest complaints about it was, like, you know how, like, every page builder, like, makes you feel like, oh, that’s a Go high level page. Oh, that’s a ClickFunnels page. Like, that’s always been my biggest objection.
But, with a good designer, you’re definitely able to get, like, pages up to spec. So, like yeah. What I’ve been able to do with GoHighLevel is essentially, like, take pages that have been, like, custom built on WordPress or whatever, like, beautiful pages, and just tell my GoHighLevel person, like, can you recreate this, like, as close as possible? And that has been, like, an amazing hack.
So, yeah, I like it. Go high level has worked. I haven’t had too many, like, problems with it, and it’s definitely gotten the job done. But I also know other people who have complained about it being, like, unreliable or wonky, at times, but I just haven’t really, yeah, I haven’t really kind of fallen into that problem yet myself.
For clients that are, you know, doing around twenty million a year, so they’re kind of not like a small start up or Mhmm. Whatever. I guess, what tech would you recommend for them if they’re not already if they don’t already have, like, an in house thing?
Oh, for what kind of marketing?
Like, a utilities provider, multifamily. So, essentially, they would be targeting managers of multifamily who are in charge of utility billing.
Okay.
I mean, at that level, probably something like HubSpot, probably something really robust.
I definitely wouldn’t mess around with, like, a go high level at that level Go high level at that level.
No. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t yeah. Yep.
Mhmm.
Thanks.
Of course.
I also have clients, like, totally different space. Right? But, like, even in that, like, eight figure range, like, I have clients who literally work with GoHighLevel and Instagram. Right?
And that’s their entire tech stack. So, yeah, it really depends on, like, where are your leads coming from, what that sales process is, what those, like, sales cycles are, and how much information needs to be, like, collected, gathered, stored, and acted upon throughout that cycle. So that’s probably the bigger determinant than, strictly revenue levels. But yeah.
I’m just finding that I I’m having good success finding the client. I have a strong understanding of the strategy, but then the tech, like, it just all goes to hell. So I’m just trying to figure out, like, how to what do I need to learn about that aspect so that I can be more Mhmm. Throughout the whole process, you know, because it’s like, you don’t delay and just the strategy doesn’t matter. Right?
To what degree do you feel like you need to be taking ownership of the tech and the tech choices?
I guess that’s sort of what I’m trying to figure out. Like, I have my my clients right now are sort of all the way from very small startup to that twenty million ish a year in revenue. And so I’m just trying to figure out how to standardize an offer that I can feel great about without Mhmm. Stress of things not working.
Yeah. Totally.
In general, like, do you consider yourself, like, pretty techie? Do you enjoy learning different systems and implementing on that level?
I don’t love it, but I’m facing the facts. Right? Like, I like being competent. So, yeah, I would prefer to stay in strategy messaging word land all day long.
Mhmm. Mhmm.
But I just think the more you know, it’s just I’d like to be fluid.
Totally.
I mean, there are a lot of people who, like, obviously thrive as automation experts that love working in those systems. Right?
These are good friends to have nearby for sure.
I could certainly see possibilities, right, of your product as services and your offerings having with tech support and implementation and without. Right?
And the ones with having collaborations, having a certain partner that fulfills on that might help keep you in the zone of what you’re really good at, because it could take a lot of energy and a lot of time and a lot of, like, learning and messing around time to get, quote, unquote, masterful at these systems. Right? And these systems, of course, change from client to client, so it might be a inevitable game.
Collaborating, and that’s where I’m suffering a little bit is because I thought anyway, I just need to make a switch with the person I’m collaborating with probably. Because I don’t wanna do it, but I need to know enough about it that I’m Mhmm.
Yeah. For sure.
Makes sense. What Well, let me know if ever there’s, like, any systems you’re looking for, like, a certain, tech collaborator on, because I know, you know, I know a lot of people who work with IKEA or ActiveCampaign or GoHighLevel.
But, yeah, keep me posted for sure.
Cool. Joseph.
I’m back. If, and if so, yeah, my my question is, how do you how are you optimizing your funnel these days?
And if it’s easier to just, like, send me to a resource that you have, like Mhmm.
That’s totally cool too.
But but yeah. Because you mentioned, like, you are once someone doesn’t, like if they don’t necessarily act on the offer right away, you know, like, you’re still selling them. You’re dropping them into your flow. You’re still testing different angles and things. So how are you yeah. What is optimizing your funnel look like for you?
Yeah. That’s a really good question.
Oh, so many different, like, competing ideologies around this. One thing that I’ll always ask first is you know? I I run a lot of, like, cold traffic from, like, ads, and I’ll always look back at that ad level of, like, am I targeting someone who is definitely problem aware, definitely motivated, and seeking a solution? Right? So those are the first questions I’ll ask myself, and sometimes I’ll so the annoying thing there is sometimes, like, the ad creatives that are less direct in that languaging will perform better and get lower CPLs than the ones that are, like, really hard and direct about, like, this is what you’re facing and very, like, presumptive of that.
But the ones that are looser perform less well down funnel. Right? So one of the places I’ll optimize is essentially, like, if I know that I have something here. Right?
If I’ve gotten sales, right, and I’ve gone through an exercise of what is true about the people who said yes, essentially creating, like, an anatomy of a buyer. Not a hypothesis, but these are my actuals. These are people who bought. I will reverse engineer who they are and put that top of funnel, right, and just try to get more people into there.
So that’s typically it’s like I tend to optimize back at the top always. I don’t mess around a lot on the in betweens until I’ve really optimized my top funnel to make sure I’m getting the right people in that even give me right data and not false negatives. Right? Like, if my sales page is converting at sub one percent, but I don’t even have the right people coming in on it, then my sales page isn’t actually converting at one percent.
Right? And I’ve seen way too many people spend a lot of time trying to, like, you know, change the headline, change the price point, change, like, everything about their sales page when, like, yeah. Most of the time, it’s a targeting targeting thing, in my view, at least. That’s, that’s one perspective out of one perspective out of possibly many.
But, yeah.
Oh, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.
Mhmm.
Yeah. I know, like, during a freelance intensive optimization came up a little bit, and one of the things Joe was talking about was, like like, you know, cut one one possible rule of thumb is starting at the, you know, closest to the actual conversion and, like, working backwards from there. But what you’re saying makes a lot of sense too, certainly, especially for ad campaigns.
Mhmm.
But, yeah, that’s that’s helpful. Thanks.
Yeah. No problem. Like, I’ve seen the same sales page convert at sub one percent, convert at, you know, three to five percent just by changing targeting. Right? So it’s like Wow. I know.
Yeah. It’s like and it makes total sense. Right? It’s like Yeah. Like, in the real world, like, you know, if you just have the wrong people walking into your store, you could have the best salespeople there.
Right? You could have, like, the best displays, the best everything. And yeah, so just dialing in the precision on those top of funnel ads, paying a getting a little less concerned about your CPLs, especially at the beginning, like your cost per leads. Like, a lot of, like, people will optimize for lower CPLs, right, which makes sense because you don’t wanna see so many dollars, like, flying out the window there.
But, yeah, I’d say, like, the place I have the most fun optimizing is just that ad creative, that ad copy. Right? Making it so direct, so clear, so like, it’s either gonna be hyper relevant or hyper irrelevant. But it gives me the confidence that everyone coming into that ecosystem is ready for a conversation about it, right, has this problem that I’m so specifically and presumptively talking about, right, and is so ready to move forward.
So, yeah, that’s my hack for that.
Yeah. I love that. That’s awesome.
Cool.
Yeah. Dane Kennedy used to say that all the time. The first step was the market.
Yeah.
You know, he says the market, the message match.
Right? He always says the first step is the market.
He said it with a better mustache too, I think. Like, list offer copy. Indeed. It always comes back down to, like, these fundamentals at the end of the day.
But, yeah, what I love about, like, list when it comes to, quote, unquote, cold traffic. Right? And I don’t like, cold is such a vague term, but, like, yeah, you get to choose your list, right, essentially with ads.
You don’t get to choose your list with a general newsletter. You don’t really get to choose your list with a website. Right? People, you know, find you in different ways. But you get to choose your list with ads based on, you know, your ad creative. So, yeah, it’s fun.
Cool. Cool. Are we complete for today?
Sweet. Britney, I love your, cupboard handles. I don’t know why they’re catching my eye.
Thanks. Random thing.
I think, restoration, maybe.
Sounds good.
Yeah. Is that your is that your office, Britney? Yeah.
I hope it’s nice.
Nice.
Thanks. Hope everyone’s having a good New Year. Appreciate the support.
Yeah. Appreciate y’all showing up for this one on January second. Fun little crew. And, yeah, have an amazing rest of the week, and I’ll catch you soon.
Thanks.
Thanks so much, Ryan.
No problem. Bye.
You guys.
How to Optimize When You Can’t Change the Offer
How to Optimize When You Can't Change the Offer
Transcript
Without further ado, I’m gonna kick it off. We’re, like, one minute past the time, so it started. I wanna keep more time for questions. And if you have an offer that you feel can be optimized without really changing the bones of the offer, well, we can look at that too after the call. Or if you’ve got, like, copy one critique, etcetera, we can do that too. Cool.
So alright.
You should be able to see offer optimization with a twist. How to optimize the offer when you can change it. Like I was saying, offer optimization has always, always been a huge part of my process right from the beginning. It is something that I believe very strongly in and would not touch a project without looking at the offer first.
So but what do you do when you can’t really change the offer? It’s very good to say, okay. You know what? This is not gonna work for this audience.
Let’s just switch it out.
But for the majority of our clients, like, at least, you know, the clients that we work with in the courses coaching niche, it’s not always possible to change an offer. Right? You can’t you need to work with the structure of the offer, but you still need to optimize it, and that’s what today’s training is all about.
So here’s what we’re gonna cover, why offer optimization is critical for any launch or relaunch. And, again, like I said, I’m speaking from my personal experience working with course creators, coaches, and consultants.
Mistakes most strategists make with offer optimization and then, of course, the three levers to pull and optimize an offer when you can’t really change it.
Cool. So why should you be optimizing an offer? Quite simply because it improves customer experience and increases conversion.
So customer experience is a huge part of the offer delivery. Right? And optimizing an offer is where you wanna look at it as well. So, and we’ll get into that in a bit. But when you improve customer experience, it just, you know, really, really helps increase conversions, not just in the short term, but in the long term.
And offer optimization is one process that is key to increasing perceived value, addressing objections, driving, you know, just kind of driving more sales at every stage, and it really helps for an offer to stand out, especially if you’re in competitive niches like most of our clients are, you know, say say online marketing or health health and wellness. Those are, like, extremely competitive niches, so how do you stand out?
That’s where offer optimization really shines. So what is not offer optimization?
Just slapping on a discount and saying that, okay. Let’s just, you know, slash the price. That is not offer optimization.
A discount can be an urgency mechanism. It doesn’t have to be. You don’t have to always decide something. But point is, it’s an urgency mechanism. It is not optimization.
Similarly, goes without saying, I’m sure no one in this room is gonna be doing this, but using click bait, beta, anything that feels icky is not offer optimization either. So, just keep in mind, it there’s more to optimizing an offer.
At the same time, I’ve seen this happen several times. You know? When strategists start with offer optimization, they will focus only on one element of an offer, so maybe course content.
Great. But that’s not just the off that’s not the offer in itself. Right? Like, you need to look at the offer holistically from positioning, pricing, people, platform. Like, you need to look at the offer completely before you start to optimize it. Similarly, the other mistake I see is overcomplicating the offer.
So either using a lot of fancy terms to describe it, overcomplicating the the overall positioning, the USP, the, you know, the value prop, or just kind of overcomplicating delivery mechanisms. You know, so just having, like, calls in the community and all of that. And then most importantly, the big mistake I see is when people make assumptions based on what’s happening in the industry.
Oh, the latest trend reports come up, or, oh, so and so is doing this with their offer. So we should test it out because they’re in the same niche or same industry as us. Please. Like, as a strategist, you wanna keep an eye on trends. You wanna keep an eye on what the competition is doing. You wanna keep an eye on what’s happening in that industry, but you don’t wanna make any assumptions.
You always wanna look at data. You wanna look at the details. I always talk about the three d’s, and you’ll you know, if you’re interested, I can send you the post. I wrote on using the three d’s for launches, but or for relaunches rather, but point is the three d’s that I look at is data, details, and depth.
So data is, of course, the numbers, what is and both qualitative and quantitative, so the numbers and the, you know, the survey responses and all of that information. The details is, you know, the details of the offer itself, like what’s changed, what’s not changed, and depth is what’s happening in in the world around us because we wanna add context. We wanna add nuance to our offers as well. So never ever ever like, if there was one mistake that I would tell you to avoid at all costs, like, you could get away with this.
You could get away with this as well, but making assumptions based on what you’re seeing, is can be one of the biggest mistakes ever because you could be seeing the industry do one thing, and it may just not work for your customer’s audience because of, like I said, data details and that. So you wanna look at those first.
Alright. So what are the three levers that you should pull when optimizing an offer when you can’t really change it?
First up, you can optimize for value perception. So you can pull the value lever by increasing perceived value of the offer by including either bonuses or content.
Another thing you’ll hear me say often is bonuses are not good or after rocks.
Every bonus I this is something I feel super, super strongly about. Like, every bonus has a job to do. I will go through a client’s bonus per suite, and I will remove anything that does is not serving a purpose there.
And, yeah, I I will make very, very strong arguments for it. Like, I believe that any bonus that’s a filler needs to go. You cannot be wasting your audience’s time and just slapping a random value auto bonus.
If there is an objection that can be addressed, make it a bonus.
If there is a next step that can be taken by someone, you could add a bonus. So example in ready to sell, which is my program, we have module specific bonuses where we, you know, which get next steps. So once you’ve done, say, the opt in page, if you wanna write, say, thank you pages, here’s how you could do it. Or if you wanna do webinar scripts, here’s how you can do it.
Speaking of bonuses, for those of you who are who may be interested in how to approach bonuses, because this is like a big part of when you’re looking at an offer when you can’t really change the offer, the core offer itself, I do have a detailed blog post on the content based blog. I’ll drop the link in the chat after the session. You could go ahead take a look at it. It’s very in-depth on all the different jobs a bonus can do. Would really help you, you know, keep in keep in mind some guidelines around how to approach bonuses.
You could always you know, again, for value perception, you agree with a guarantee.
So the purpose of the guarantee, again, it’s not a placeholder. The guarantee is not you don’t just always need to take money back guarantee just because, again, everybody else has it.
The purpose of your guarantee is to remove the, oh, well, this won’t work on me, or I’ve tried it in the past, but I’ve been burned.
Your again, like your bonuses, your guarantee has a job to do. So take a good look at that guarantee and see how can you optimize that to optimize the offer and, of course, then overcome an objection in the process as well. So you wanna be very you know, when you’re looking at the offer, you wanna look at any question and ask and get curious about the fact, like, why do we have thirty days, or why do we have seven days? Like, is this, like, an arbitrary number that we just picked out of thin air, or is there solid reasoning behind it?
So give a careful thought, before just, like, taking it off that, yes, we have a guarantee.
And the third way you can optimize for value perception is add accessibility in different forms.
You can increase the perceived value and the actual value. In fact, often offer by adding accessibility.
A lot of offers that our clients had created, you know, like, years ago have almost no accessibility. So we have you know, when you were looking at things like closed captions, transcripts, downloads, Google Docs for workbooks instead of PDFs that require you to kind of, you know, PDF workbooks were big at one point. Then everyone realized, like, okay. Not everyone’s gonna be printing them out. No one really wants to, you know, type in tiny text in those fillable fields. So all of a sudden, Google Docs workbook became more accessible.
So looking at those elements of an offer to, you know, improve accessibility is great. Of course, you wanna make sure, you you know, things like payment plans, especially if you’re viewing with an audience or speaking to an audience where, you know, budget’s going to be a concern.
One of my personal pet peeves and this is my personal pet peeve. I’ve, you know, had clients in the past who have done this. It’s not something I’m a hundred percent behind. I do make sure they know where I stand on this is where you pull an extended payment plan out, like, say, at the very last minute of a launch. I’ve had several clients do this. I know the psychology behind it. It’s just something that does not sit right with me personally, so I make sure I let them know and especially if I have data to back whatever, points I’m making, I back it up with data again because we don’t wanna make any assumptions based on what I personally feel.
So think about those things, you know, like when you’re making those recommendations to your clients, like, okay. I know we have a twelve per payment plan that we will be using at the last minute to encourage those last minute sales. But having spoken to our audience and having combed through survey responses, I know most of them are very, very concerned about this being a discretionary purchase.
So I have a recommendation based on all of this information that I have, and then you have, like, all of the, you know, the quotes, responses, the percentages to help them see where you’re coming from when you make the recommendation that, okay. I feel like we should present the twelve part payment plan right at the beginning instead of right at the end.
So things like these can add help add accessibility, access to the owner, the course creator, or the offer owner via calls, any apps that you have, private podcast of you know, anything that offers quick wins, those are great ways to increase and improve value perception of their offer.
Okay. The next thing you can optimize for when you can’t change the offer is optimize your experience.
Alright. Quick side note. We’ve been having a few power cuts. If I lose power, I will come back here.
So it may go just it may just go dark, but, yeah, I’ve not just walked out of the room. I will come back. Okay. Cool.
So optimize for student experience. So I’ll give you an example here.
Couple years ago, I was working on an, on, a membership site we launched for one of our clients who’s got an astrology program. And one of the things that came out in her surveys and her student interviews was that the platform, the membership platform that she was on was not very, you know, user friendly. And while everybody loved her content, they were not fans of the platform at all. We we took that information to her and her team and her you know, they worked to move that move from that membership platform to a whole other one for better student experience leading to not only great enrollment, rates, but also way better student feedback, that, again, has a ripple effect on, a, reducing churn, and, b, more enrollments because, you know, people are giving great feedback about it.
So this was such a simple thing to do to improve student experience. So how easy is the course platform to use? What are the communities engaged? Is it crickets?
Do they need to bring in a community manager? You know, if the course owner or course creator or the offer owner is, or is the content easy to find? All of those things. So what you wanna ask yourself is, what about the student experience can be optimized to, again, increase the value or change the prospects, you know, perception of this program?
So look at the student experience from all different angles. You kinda say, oh, they’re unteachable. I’m just gonna sell for that. Could they be on a different platform?
Similarly, the student onboarding and the post purchase experience. Super, super important. You will be shocked. Like, this is such a low hanging fruit for anyone who’s working in the post creator market to kind of tap into and reach out to past clients and ask them, like, hey.
What is your student onboarding and post purchase experience look like? Chances are a lot of them would have, like, the standard email that goes out saying, hey. You’re signed in. Watch out for an email from Kajabi or Teachable or whatever platform they’re on, and that’s pretty much it.
And then, you know, they get, like, the regular newsletters and all of that. So that’s like a it’s like such a low lift strategy to optimize an offer by saying, you know, I’ll be there to kind of guide you as you go through the course.
I’ll be there to show you what the next steps are. You will get, you know, periodic nudges from us asking you that. And a lot of platforms these days make it really easy for you to do that as well. Like, you know, circle makes it really easy to do that. You could also, of course, set up automated sequences. Point is the setup is one thing, but you need to start looking at these elements when you’re optimizing an offer in order to make it a much stronger and an easier sell as well.
And the third really where you can pull is, of course, optimize for reach. So every business owner when they’re launching a new product, again, regardless of whether they’re, you know, creative entrepreneurs, course creators, Any any business owner needs more reach. So you wanna look at can you start by looking at their messaging and their positioning and think about, okay. Can we optimize the offer by repositioning it?
Do we need to change the messaging slightly, entirely, make it complete three sixty? Like, start asking yourself those questions when you’re looking at, of course, the data, but also when you’re talking to the client, when you’re talking to their clients.
And then sometimes you’ll find that the USP, which was great in, say, twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two is now really dated and does not do the offer justice. So maybe you need to go back to the point board, come up with a whole all of these things could be part of your offer optimization.
And I know some of you may be thinking like, okay. This gets tricky because how do I kind of account for all of this work?
But that is something you need to start thinking about when you have those initial calls with the time when you start looking at the offer and before you, you know, send them your proposal. You would need to have some once of an idea. Like, okay. This USB especially if you’ve been in your industry for a while, you will know that, okay. This is not this messaging needs to, you know, change. How much? We’ll kind of come to that later.
Here are a bunch of other factors that you keep in mind when optimizing an offer that cannot be changed. First up, of course, like I said, positioning. I would always, always start with positioning. Sometimes just repositioning an offer, looking at a different audience segment, a subsegment of, the client’s overall audience, all of those things can make a huge difference. Like, those small shifts in how you speak to an audience would, you know, yeah, lead to some really great results.
Lean on cognitive biases. Like, all of us know that that’s how the human things without, again, without being without, like, kind of being icky about it, you can start using things like anchoring and scarcity and authority and any other cognitive bias. Like, for those of you who wanna get, like, a quick story in how to do this, I would highly recommend signing up to Caitlin Bergeron’s newsletter, why we buy excellent case studies in how different brands use different biases across different industries. So I would strongly recommend signing up for that if you aren’t already on her list.
And like I said, optimize for accessibility. Again, it’s really easy, like, to do that and make the offer really robust and increase value.
Look for the three p’s, the price, people, and platform.
Interestingly enough about price, like I said, simply giving a discount is not optimization. Similarly, just increasing the price is not optimization either. Having said that, you may always wanna look at the price to see, does it fit right with the audience, especially if you’re repositioning an offer.
Does it align with that new positioning, or is there a mismatch there?
In every every single element, what I found works really well is to, yes, have an idea, have an understanding of the industry and the market, but also look at what the data tells you. Like, that always always makes sense.
And then social proof, another big one. So, you can always optimize an offer by leveraging elements of social proof. So and if you don’t have social proof, then is there a way of sourcing social proof? Like, are clients open to that? Are they open for you to get on calls and get social proof? Are they open to you sending surveys out to their clients in getting social proof? If it’s a brand new offer, are they willing to run a beat around in order to get social proof, or do you need to get social proof through things like studies and stats?
Because that’s a different kind of social proof, but it’s social proof in any case. Point is you can use social proof again as part of offer optimization to both improve value perception, optimize for reach, and, of course, you know, just make the offer stand out more in an industry that may in a niche that may be outed.
Cool.
Like I said, huge panel of our organization.
The you could write the best copy, but a poor offer yeah.
The best copy would not save a poor offer. So spend more time on offer optimization because this, like, this whole process that I walked you through, this is, like, just what I would do if I can’t change the offer. And there’s obviously way more, that goes into it. So, yes, it is time consuming, but it saves you so much more time when you sit down to write the copy because you know you have a solid offer with legs that you can stand behind and that will stand out in the market or the industry that you’re looking to kind of, you know, make it stand out in.
So skipping optimization is something no strategist with this all should ever even think about doing. Like, it is part of my VIP experience as well. Like, that’s the reason why, like, my VIP package is, like, two weeks because I will not skip offer optimization at any cost. So I know this may not be the popular thing, but, again, you’re in copy school professional.
You’re not here to do what’s, you know, the easier, the popular thing. You’re supposed to do the thing that’s gonna make you and your clients the most money. And when you start optimizing offers with an eye on increasing conversions, it becomes that much easier for your clients to make more money and, of course, for you to charge, a really good, some too. So, yeah, do not skip it at any any cost.
Cool. Now you know all of this. Why is it critical? What are the mistakes it would? And most importantly, what are the three levers to pull when you’re optimizing an offer without changing its core elements?
That was a fast presentation.
Let’s look at questions.
Worksheet
Transcript
Today is ah, a work day. We’re gonna make videos.
You’re gonna love it.
I know.
So I that’s what, today’s whole training is about. If you didn’t look at the workbook and you showed up anyway, that’ll, teach you to look at the workbook going forward.
Okay. But it’s actually really, really fun. So this is, of course, the month of straight line copywriting. And among that, we wanna make sure that you are, driving to get more of your own clients as well using straight line copywriting slash straight line selling techniques. One of those is increasing certainty in you as someone that people should hire. Now one of the big things that copywriters overlook, oh, record on this computer, one of the big things that copywriters overlook is, that a lot of your prospects, people that you wish would hire you, they don’t like hiring freelancers because they’ve been burned by other freelancers, like a lot a lot. So it’s important that we address all of those objections and not just not introduce them of course, but where those objections exist, we wanna make sure that we have done what it takes to get rid of them so that we have good qualified leads coming in.
That’s why today, we’re going to focus on using tools in order to get to a place where we can, overcome those objections and get straight into the straight line. So this is what you should have handy. We’re gonna write a pinned post video sales letter to increase certainty in you. Pinned posts are basically these things. So you’ve got three on Instagram you can throw there.
You can do featured ones. They’re just called featured on, LinkedIn, and they, like, default to being featured. So certain posts that you have will, like the newest ones will get pinned unless you manage them. You can remove pins.
You can see which ones, you’ve what you’ve posted that has gone over well. You’ll have multiple ways to or multiple posts that you can pin or feature on LinkedIn. This is just gonna be one of them. So that means that you have to be able you have to be willing to post this video first as, like, a post, and then you get to pin it.
Unless someone knows a different way, but that’s what my team told me. So that’s what we do.
So this is the idea here is we wanna lean heavily on AI to help us with the stuff, that keeps us from doing this hard work because I know that not a lot of people want to do a video, but we’re going to. And so what can we do to remove the friction?
We can get ChatGPT and other tools to do a lot of the heavy lifting for us. So what I want you to do, this is a working session, I want you to go ahead and open ChatGPT or your preferred writing tool, writing, like, AI platform, whatever it is. And, we’re going to get we’re gonna start here. You’re going to use CapGPT or whatever to generate a list of reasons that the target personas at your particular ICP hesitate to hire new freelance copywriters.
You’re new to their world. There’s a lot of friction you have to overcome there especially if they just don’t know that much about you yet. So I asked Chat GPT this. I’m using the book Way of the Wolf, by Jordan Belfort to better understand selling, breaks about straight line selling. I’m trying to apply that, to hiring copywriters.
Give me the five critical uncertainties that CDMOs that businesses have. And this is just general, so yours can get more specific, but CMOs businesses have when it comes to hiring a new freelance copywriter for their copywriting needs. Be sure to make this list relevant now in late twenty twenty four, and the five key things that, ChatGPT came up with probably won’t surprise any of us, but it’s good to know. So proof of impact. Let me increase this. I’m seeing people doing this to try to see it on your little monitors.
Proof of impact on conversions revenue. Now a lot of people think that. Right? A lot of us are sitting there going, oh, no.
I don’t have enough proof. But there are other things. Adaptability to AI tools. Are you do you know how to use a right, or are you going to come in and only use AI or refuse to use AI?
Will my team be worried that all you’re going to do is use AI or you’ll use it improperly or or or? So there’s a lot of anxiety there. Current market trends, do you understand what’s going on with what your prospect is trying to do?
Their culture, their brand? Are you able to integrate into the way that they get stuff done, not just tone of voice, but that’s part of it. Right? Can you fully grasp those things? And then consistency.
Are you reliable?
Will you deliver work consistently on time? All of those things. And if you’re not addressing this stuff, it could be okay. Maybe you don’t need to.
Maybe it’s like people are not worried about this. I would doubt it, though. I would absolutely doubt that that’s the case. Everybody, like, this is the kind of stuff that comes up at the very end and then they say, oh, we just don’t have budget for it.
You do have budget for it. There’s just some uncertainty here and that’s what straight line selling is, of course, all about. So then we want to move on. Oh, wait.
We’re not gonna do that yet. You’re gonna start by prompting AI to come up with the list of reasons that target personas. So think about it. Is it a CTO?
Is it a CPO, CRO, CMO, whoever it is, or someone lower, whatever, whoever that persona is at your ICP, why they would hesitate to hire new freelance copywriters. Okay? So prompt, ChatGPT or whatever to come up with, let’s say, five reasons, maybe ten reasons.
Five reasons makes it more manageable for you to create one piece of content around that. If it’s ten reasons, it’s gonna be a very long video. That just sounds like it could be a little too much. So I would say come up with three, five reasons. Okay? Do you understand your assignment?
Alright. Let’s talk to you have three minutes to get your AI tool to come up with this stuff.
Alright. That is time. Did anybody come up with anything interesting or unexpected that you would like to share? If so, come off mute and share. Otherwise, we move on.
Oh, everyone’s still muted. Okay. Alright. Cool. Then our next step today is to generate a VSL.
The VSL is purely to address what we’re talking what you just found. So this isn’t a BSL for everything to do with everything that you do. It really just you can imagine it won’t be maybe the first pinned post on Instagram. It might be the third one, or it might be just one of many featured posts on, you’ll you’ll figure that out, but the point is it has to be for somebody who’s at a place where they have already kind of been exposed to what you do, and they’re not wondering what do you focus on.
They can see that. Your page, your Instagram, or whatever, if I ended to say, like, here’s what I do, here’s who I serve, they can go to various places to find out more about that. This is really just like a working with me, why people love working with me. So it goes beyond I just deliver good work.
We’re not gonna talk about the great work that you deliver unless it’s part of the objections that AI came up with or those uncertainties that your prospect has. So we want to use ChatGPT or I don’t remember who it was. I feel like it was McGee over in our, the intensive freelancing who mentioned BigVue.
BigVue is a teleprompter. You’re going to want to use that today on your phone. We can talk about that. Don’t worry about that yet.
But it can also help you script, like, use AI to generate a script for your video sales letter or whatever where you can give it the prompts that AI just told you and pop it over there, or just continue using, ChatGPT to go forward with scripting your two minute VSL now. Now it doesn’t have to be two minutes. That’s not a magical number. There’s no absolute room for that.
We just don’t want it to be longer than two minutes, and we want to give people enough time, that they’re spending time with you is the idea. So if it’s thirty seconds, they haven’t really committed to spending time with you. You can keep them watching for two minutes. That is good for building up trust in you and all the other things that we’re trying to do when they’re not on the sales call with you.
So you want to have a hook.
So that is always the trick. That’s where you as a copywriter come in and make, make sure the DSL is better. A hook, a brief intro of who you are, and then get into why it’s so great to work with me, why brands love working with me. And you can mention, of course, your ICP here, so it doesn’t have to say why big brands.
It could be why coaches who are making five million dollars a year and wanna get ten million a year, why they love working with me. And then you hop into it. So you’re gonna use AI to generate that script for you. You can teach it whatever you want to about problem that’s taking solution or any frameworks you might want to use.
You’re going to make it your sidekick right now for your BSL, and I will give you five minutes to do that. Do you have any questions before you dive in?
No? Just come on up with a script that you will eventually be comfortable reading on your phone. Okay?
Cool.
Five minutes.
Alright. We lost a person.
Someone bailed, and I took a screenshot, so I’m gonna look at who bailed.
Okay. Awesome. So that was it for scripting. Did anybody get to a place where they feel they have a script that they could read?
Andrew is not sure.
Cody, Jess, Katie.
Okay. Have you tried reading it out?
Does it just suck?
Yeah. You wanna go again? Because we’re gonna record today.
Let’s do three more minutes to make it good.
Okay. Good. Yeah. Make some tweaks.
Yeah. Three minutes. Cool.
K. It looks like most of y’all are not in you can’t see your eyes moving across the page reading.
So I think that we’re okay. Okay. It doesn’t have to be perfect. We just wanna get this thing done and then you can add something to your calendar to go back in a week and do it differently, do it better, whatever whatever.
You’re gonna be really hard on yourself right now and probably on AI.
Don’t worry too much about it. Don’t overthink it. People don’t think about things nearly as much as we think they do. So, the next step is to take that leap.
Upload, add oh, sorry. Add BigVue to your phone if you haven’t already or whatever teleprompter you might have. There are other teleprompter tools all over the place. We just want to be ready to hit record and, start reading through your script.
So, that’s what I recommend that you do right now is have a teleprompter tool or just throw your Google Doc or whatever right on your phone, and then just be ready to read it. But you wanna look like you’re not reading it, and that’s where a teleprompter goes a long way. Your first take might be your best take, but it might also suck. So you’re gonna want to do this three times.
Read through it three times. Hit record on all of them.
Don’t wait for the perfect one. Like, this is the one, and then you hit record and you’re like, damn it. I should’ve have done the last one. Just record the whole way through. You’ve got a phone that can hold, like, tons. Like, I’m sure most of us have, like, storage that’s bananas, so don’t worry about it. Does anybody have one of these sorts of things?
This little tool is for this is what I use when I’m recording.
The phone, the light.
Whatever you have that’s like that, go ahead and get your phone set up to be lighting you, and you’re going to be recording right on it. Who’s got that? People are getting organized. I like it. Jess has hers.
Amber’s like, I’m in a co working space, so I can’t no. Yeah. Okay. It’s cool. If you can’t if you can, please do.
Try not to do it on Zoom because it can be really wonky even when you use, like, Opus or something to to cut it down to, like, lands not landscape, vertical portrait.
It can be a little wonky. That’s what my social media person says. So they don’t like us to use, Zoom for it. So just use your phone.
Doesn’t have to be crazy, fancy. This is on Amazon for twenty bucks or something like that. Is not fancy. I think it’s from I think it’s made in China.
This wasn’t one of my socially conscious purchases.
Twenty bucks. Got the job done. So my so get those if you don’t already have one.
What you’re going to do now is a couple of things. I’ll give you ten minutes, and then when you’re done, that will come back on and we’ll flip over to the q and a part of today.
If you what I want to caution against is going off camera ten minutes and pretending to do this. I know most of you won’t, but there’ll be part of you that’s like, do I have to Joe doesn’t own my business. I can do whatever I want to. I’m paying to be here.
It’s true. All of those things are true, but I do strongly recommend that you do the hard things that you don’t like doing. And if this is one then that’s all the more reason to do it, then you’ll say I did a hard thing today. I put that video together, and now it’s pinned on my site and now or my Instagram, my social, whatever, and now I have a better chance of closing more business.
This is all a step toward closing more business more easily with people who don’t have that price objection. Okay?
And then they won’t. Yeah. So that’s good, Kate. That’s awesome. Thank you for saying that.
You have ten minutes. Take several takes of it. It should only be a two minute deal. Roll through it.
If you don’t have a place to mount this, find somewhere around your house. Make sure that you’re not looking down. Always be looking a little bit up on it. All those things that you already know are true for social media.
Do your best to make yourself look pro. Okay?
Ten minutes, then we’ll come back. Good luck. Have fun.
Okay. I hope I am not cutting anything short here.
If you are ready, come back on camera.
If not, keep filming.
Good.
K.
Alright.
Good. Okay. Well, we got something done this morning. Your job is then to post it. Schedule it. Go for it.
Do the thing.
And then of course, book time in your calendar to go back, revisit it, see what you can see if, various analytics tools can help you see how far people are watching into a video, so go look into that. I can’t say if LinkedIn does. I haven’t we haven’t finished posting our featured post videos to Instagram. They’re in production.
So, yeah, I don’t know if you can see analytics on that. But does anybody know if you can see how far into a video you posted to LinkedIn people are watching?
I don’t think so.
But, yeah, go back and optimize it unless you’re happy with it and then leave it. You have other work to do.
Guest Speaker Talia Wolf – Supercharge your CRO Skills
Supercharge Your CRO Skills
Transcript
So I’m, I’ve been tasked by Joe to talk to you about meaningful conversion optimization, and really just dig into how to do it the right way.
I’ve done I’ve been doing conversion optimization for really over a decade. I’ve known Joe for, jeez, like, thirteen, fourteen years now.
And we worked together on a handful of things.
And, really, the way my team and I approach conversion optimization is very different than the vast majority of CRO agencies, and that’s what I’m gonna be talking about today. So first thing I really wanna kinda dig into is the actual CRO process. So, I know some of you are just getting to know what conversion optimization is.
But, normally, when we talk about conversion optimization, we will see that there’s, like, a three step process. You first have to find the leak in the funnel. So there is the problem. You can go into Google Analytics, and it will tell you where the problem exists.
And then you have to create a new variation to optimize, and then you need to launch an experiment. And this can be on your landing pages, on your emails, on your website.
And and, like, launching an experiment kind of similar like finding the leak in the funnel is more or less simple if you have the right tools and if you have the right people. But the biggest black box in commercial optimization is creating a new variation.
It’s just thrown out there like, create a new variation, and it will be fine. But that’s like the hardest part of conversion optimization. And what we find is that most companies end up testing very specific elements, like reducing load time, adding an exit pop up, changing the call over call to action button, removing steps in the funnel, changing the headline. So really just moving elements on the page or changing them and thinking, okay.
This is just gonna work. It’s fine. And hopefully, you know, that this is gonna help. And essentially, what this is is just changing one element on the page.
So you’re taking your page, let’s say it’s a home page, and you’re changing one element and hoping it will work, and it really rarely does. And even if it does increase conversions, what have you even learned from it? What have you been what are you able to do with this information? Can you scale it?
Can you learn from this in a way that will allow you to then take these learnings and use them for your emails or use them for landing page optimization?
Normally, not.
So really, what we end up doing is finding that we are on this hamster wheel. And I and I really like talking about this hamster wheel because, this is what the really something everyone’s on. Right? We start testing random stuff because we don’t really know what we’re testing.
And then we think, you know what? Maybe our competitors know what they’re doing. So we go to our competitors’ websites, and we copy them. And then we end up sounding like everyone else and looking like everyone else, and that’s not working. So we look for software and tools that can help us fix this, and then you test random stuff again. So because you you don’t really know how to use the tools.
So, really, in conversion optimization, there is a big problem. There is a flaw, because this is how everyone’s approaching it. And, really, it’s because we’re all looking at graphs and numbers, and we’re trying to segment our audience into behavioral pieces.
You know, where we say, okay. Things aren’t converting. What should we do? Let’s go to Google Analytics and figure it out. And we can see that we’re talking to a certain age and a certain geographical location, and maybe it’s a certain gender, but we don’t really know what to do next.
And the thing is that in order to really increase conversions, you have to understand something far more important.
Number one is that conversion optimization isn’t about changing elements on the page. It’s about solving people’s problems.
If you control people’s problems on a website or in any page, you will increase your conversions. And that is really different than what most approach look like because, really, most approaches are about, okay, find the problem, fix it quickly, maybe change something about it, and it will increase conversions. But, really, that is not what conversion optimization is about. What you really wanna do is understand people’s problems. You wanna understand what’s what their pains are, what their challenges are, and translate that into a better experience.
And this is really where the emotional targeting framework comes in, which is a framework that I built, I don’t know, twelve, thirteen, fourteen years ago and have been optimizing ever since. So, I’ve tested this on thousands of landing pages, hundreds of businesses, and it really is the art and science of understanding how people make decisions.
And the reason we try to figure this out is because if you can influence people’s decision making process, that means you’re going to increase conversions. So you have to understand how people make decisions, not if they are male or female, not if they’re thirty five or twenty five. What you really need to understand is who they are, how they make decisions, what motivates them in life, what pains them in life, and how they really make a decision about whether to buy something or not.
So this takes us away from the conversation of age and geolocation and title and gender and browser devices.
What we want to really think about is why do people buy from us. Now most companies already say, well, you know, the reason people buy from us is because we have a great we have greater technology or features or pricing.
But I really am here to tell you that this is not why people buy.
Really, there is these are the things that will once they’ve decided to buy from you, they will look at and decide if that makes sense or not. But this isn’t why people buy. In fact, no one actually cares about what you’re selling.
And in order to figure out why people buy, you have to understand how people make decisions. So as I said, this is how we think people make decisions. We think that people go for this elaborate process of thinking about the pros and the cons and does this work? Doesn’t it work? Should I choose this? Should I not? And then suddenly, I will reach a rational decision, and it will all make sense.
Psychologists, scientists, the biggest brands in the world like Nike and Lego all know that this is not how people make decisions.
Really, this is.
Everything in life, every decision that we make is based on emotion.
We attach an emotional reason to it. We have different emotional triggers and drivers that will decide whether we buy something or not. And later on, we will rationalize it. So if you ask someone why they buy from you, they will tell you, you know, it’s your features, it’s your technology, it’s the solution that you’re selling.
But it was an emotional decision. Our brain is quick. It’s intuitive. It’s sharp. It makes decisions based on our emotions.
In fact, even Antonio Damasio, who is a professor of psychology, ran some really interesting, research. One of them was on people that have brain damage. And what he discovered is though these people that have specific brain damage, which was tied to could not feel any emotion, they could go about their lives more or less the same. So these are people that could couldn’t feel any emotion.
But when he looked and he studied them, he figured out, okay. These people are more or less going about their lives as usual, but they had one big thing, and that is they couldn’t make any decision in life at all, not even what sandwich they should eat. And this is where he said, you know, we’re not thinking machines that feel. We are feeling machines that think.
And this is crucial because without emotion, we lack the ability to make decision. This isn’t something that’s fluffy and cute and nice to think about. It’s actual science. If there isn’t any emotion, we can’t make the decision.
So when you’re thinking about why people buy from you, you need to step back and not think about, okay. It’s these features or AI or technology.
It’s what people are actually thinking about and how they feel. They’re thinking about, will I get a career advancement? Will people see me as the go to person in the office? Will I feel more confident? Will I get promoted?
You know, will this make me a better a better mom, a better walker, a better whatever?
Will they like me more? All these decisions are based on how we want to feel, how we feel right now, and how we want to feel off to finding the solution.
So emotional targeting really is a framework that helps us understand those motivators, why people what their emotions are and how we can tap into those and really help them make a better decision for themselves.
So let’s quickly kind of review, this framework and how we use promotional targeting to increase conversions for our clients.
So there is a few steps in our process. Number one is running meaningful CRO research, and I will get into this in a moment, but really diving into who are our customers.
How do they feel? How do they want to feel?
What are the things that are really stopping them from converting? What are the things that are keeping them up at night?
Then we run an emotional resonance audit, which means once we’re geared with these insights of who our customers truly are, we can then audit our pages, our website, our emails, and it’s so much easier to know what the problem is. If before we went into Google Analytics and we found out that the home page was a problem and we went to the home page and we looked at it, the the actual angle we’d be thinking about is, okay, best practices say you should have you shouldn’t have a carousel or you should have your CTA above the fold. You would be thinking about it as best practices and what do other websites do.
But if you run your customer research beforehand when you go to your website, it’s so much easier to see the problem, what’s not working, and why things aren’t resonating, and why people aren’t connecting on an emotional level. So once we’ve done that, we optimize our pages with emotion using copy, designing, x, and other methods that I will show, and, of course, running meaningful experiments. And this kind of goes, in a kind of circular motion where we’re constantly testing and running more research for our clients and running more experiments.
So step number one is really meaningful CRU research designed to uncover the real why.
Here are some of the things that you want to uncover when you’re thinking about this research. What pain does my customer feel before finding a solution?
What are their emotional triggers that drive their decision making? What are their hesitations and concerns? And how do they want to feel after finding a solution? This is different questions that are more unique and really do go into the core of people’s emotional drivers of why they buy things.
Once you have, answered those questions with your research, you can then audit your pages strategically.
And you can ask yourself questions like, can people immediately see the why and what’s in it for them?
Are you incorporating the emotional outcomes that prospects care about? Are you using words and descriptions that prospects relate to? And what aren’t you saying that people need to see, feel, and read on the page? And you can only answer these questions when you have real meaningful customer insights.
When you ask people why they signed up or why they did something and you’re getting these shallow answers, you won’t be able to actually answer this. And these are the most crucial ones because when you can answer these, you’ll know exactly what copy to choose. You’ll know what images to choose, what colors to choose for your pages. So each of these questions is really important in order to identify what’s not working, what isn’t resonating on an emotional level, what isn’t connecting for people.
So you’ve done your research. You have audited your pages strategically. And next, what you wanna be doing is optimizing your pages with emotion.
And that means everything that you do, in your copy, in your design, in every single element of your customer journey. You want to make it about them. You’ll notice that most companies make it about themselves. You’ll see sentences like the only one solution for x or powered by AI or we we’re the only people that do this. It’s mostly when you look at coffee, especially in b two b companies, but also in ecommerce and any other industries, you’ll see that most of the messaging is about the company and the solution itself. But with emotional targeting, you want to make everything on the page about them.
You want to tell the stories and use words that they resonate with. You want to make sure that your messaging is connected to every stage of their awareness to ensure that the visuals that you’re using amplify your message. I know everyone in the room is a copywriter, but imagery is what helps amplify the message that you were writing. So it’s not enough just to write good copy. You have to be able to attach meaningful visuals and images and colors to your messaging so that when people look at them, your message resonates with them and amplifies that message.
And, of course, you need to ensure that emotion is consistent throughout the entire page, the entire website, and not just a page header.
We’ve done this even on menus and navigations for websites where you connect and resonate on an emotional level with, prospects.
I’ll show you an example. So, really, once you’ve done your research and you have audited your website or your page from a strategic level, and you have started to create new variations with your copy and your design that are geared with emotion, then you want to stop running experiments.
Emotion based tests. This means that if we’re looking at Teamwork, one of our clients, they have a comparison page. The idea here is you’re not going to simply change the headline. You’re not simply just going to try and change the CTA, but what you’re trying to do is create better comparison page. And, really, comparison pages are super important because whether you want to admit it or not, anyone coming into your website or your client’s website is comparing them to their competitor. And you want to create pages that actually help people make decisions.
But how can you create that? How can you create a really good comparison page if you don’t understand what the criteria is? If you go to most comparison pages, and this was the same for Teamwork, they had this header on their home on their comparison page, and below that was a simple table. Just showed the different features that Bryte had and the different features that Teamwork had and just comparison between those. But that doesn’t answer critical questions that their customers cared about. So when we did our own research with Teamwork and when we tried to go deeper in understanding, okay, why would people choose, Teamwork like, we really were able to identify different critical things for people, like the fact that they wanted it to be that they wanted a project management solution to really be geared for the kind of work that they do.
Teamwork’s ICP are agencies.
They’re people that do client work, and we wanted to show anyone that came to this page that was con basically comparing Teamwork to Wrike that this was the best platform to do client work on. If you run client work or you’re an agency, you want to use Teamwork for project management.
And that meant that we would include all information that they cared about, every single piece. It was about the fact that it was designed for client work. It was about the fact that when we did research and we interviewed people that switched from Wrike or were just looking for different tools, they noticed that they would get constant upsells. So even though other tools looked cheaper, Teamwork was actually cheaper at the at the end of it.
So actually calling out the different things that Zwipe did in a in in a way that didn’t help customers and adding so much more copy and so much more visuals and a lot more information for, these prospects helped them make a better decision, and that led to a fifty four percent increase in free trials. And it really was interesting to see because this client did not want such a long page, not want all these visuals, did not believe in this approach. But once we clearly said, hey. If you run client work, these are the things you care about.
You care about the fact that this tool was built by people that understand client work. You care about the fact that other teams like you are using it. You care about upsells, and you care about different emotional triggers, and here they all are on the page for you to make a decision.
We did the same with their home page. So the original home page was at last easy to use project management software. You want outgrow outgrow.
Literally, I could change the logo to Asana Wrike Monday, and you wouldn’t know what product this is. There was nothing in here that was speaking specifically to customers.
But once we changed it to one new client work in the OMB platform that’s actually built for it and had specific, visuals below the fold and also, bullet points that focused on the kind of warmth that they care about, we were able to increase their conversions.
So mostly what I came in to talk to you very briefly today is about starting to think in everything that you do about emotional targeting, about understanding the emotional drivers of your prospects.
Instead of a few right now trying to think about, okay, how can I optimize, a page? How can I optimize an email? I want you to flip the process.
Start by conducting meaningful customer research about your customers to uncover those emotional triggers, to uncover those emotional drivers, and only then audit your funnels and your pages and your emails to identify what’s not working rather than trying to do the opposite.
Then you can optimize your copy and design with emotion, and you can run meaningful experiments. So this was quite quick, but just a bit of a taste into what this framework is all about.
This QR code leads to our checklist, which will give you all the strategic questions that we ask when we, audit a website strategically.
So I think that’s it.
Thanks, Talia. That was awesome.
A lot of good stuff packed into it.
Twenty four minutes. That’s awesome.
Cool. We also have more training this afternoon for, the intensive. So there’s a bunch of stuff on, deck today for Copy School Pro. Today, we are finally talking about something I’ve been hinting at for the last little bit, and that is sell by chat.
Sell by chat, there’s a lot we can say to get into that. When we worked on the sixteen by twenty three lesson a little bit ago, part of that was part of sell by chat where you’re trying to open conversations, especially in that case after they’ve gone, a little bit cold or we just haven’t heard from people in a while. And maybe on their end, it’s still warm, but on your end, it’s feeling a little cold. So today, though, we’re going to talk about brand new followers and how to open conversations with them so that you can nurture them to a close. Now we’re gonna talk all the way through closing them, in the framework I’m gonna walk you through today.
But you won’t always close them as easily or quickly as is shown here. So we’re gonna walk through, like, these nine parts, but that could happen over a six week period. So or eight weeks or one week or one hour. It can vary. Right? It depends on who you’re talking to and what they’re looking for.
So and it also helps to have a lot of practice with this stuff too. So keep that in mind. As a reminder, we are diving in, questions. You’ll come off mute for any questions you’d like to ask. If you would like to be on camera, that’s perfect and highly encouraged so people can see each other, say, hey. Get to know each other’s faces.
After this walk through, we’re going to have a q and a session. That’s an ask me anything. It can be directly tied to what we’re talking about today, or it can get into other questions you have as a freelancer looking to make more money with happy clients.
Make sure when you ask a question, you always start with a win, a win of any kind. We just wanna focus on things that are good and getting better because it can be very challenging, to work for yourself, and, it’s easy to focus on some of the harder stuff when there’s a lot of good stuff happening too. Alright. I am going to start sharing my screen.
You will soon first, you’re gonna see the Zoom background, then you’re gonna see my calendar, and now we’re going to see that. That’s what we’re looking for. This is our, worksheet for today. Moving a few more things around. Alright. Cool. So, again, this is sell by chat where the idea is that you have one on one conversations with people in order to get them to buy, just like old school salespeople have always done, except we’re doing it over the phone and in some cases then, of course, leading to having conversations like this over Zoom.
But the idea here for today is to start opening conversations manually on your phone. In, the intensive freelancing, next week, we’re getting into a bunch of social stuff, including ManyChat.
So we’ll talk more about that later. Today, we are talking about a tool that is very, very easy to use.
We have a person who’s just joined our team to do sell by chat as her full job, and that really just means opening conversations with new followers and nurturing them to do something. So she is on her phone all the time, and whenever we get a new fall or she immediately pings them and starts working through what we’re gonna talk through today. This works for LinkedIn as well. So if you’re like, I don’t do people can connect with you.
Where it doesn’t work, yet is, like, YouTube because that’s there’s just no mechanism there to start, like, one on one conversations with people. Maybe Google has a plan for that. I don’t know. But it does make us think twice about spending too much of our resources on YouTube, and I’d encourage you to have the same kind of thought when you’re trying to figure out where your Instagram or, sorry, where your social focus should be for us.
It’s currently Instagram, and here’s why. What we’re gonna talk through today is why.
So this is called open with boards when you’re bored because boards is a tool. I’m going to show you the tool. It is a tool that replaces your keyboard. So when you’re actually in Instagram or WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger or wherever you may be, where people are following you or chatting with you, it actually just replaces your keyboard.
So you go in and someone has started a conversation here. That’s our chat person just did that. You hit to reply to the message, and then you can hit the little globe icon below to get you into something called boards. You can see that here showing a little bit in there.
My but this showing on the screen is what that brings up. So if I click boards, and it’s a whole process to walk you through that, but I actually have put a page together for you to see in today’s, document so you can go into what boards really does.
We have you’ll have just basically really quick, conversations with people that are ready to go. So here’s an example.
When somebody is following us, is a new as a new follower, our person, her name is Maddie, our person who, opens a conversation with them goes into boards, they see this. You can see that there are multiple boards off to the side here. We can talk through those if you’d like to, and I’m happy to.
But what they’re going to start with is this one under board for freelancing school and copy school professional candidates is what we called it. So, basically, any freelancer who reaches out to us, we default to believing everybody’s a freelancer. You’ll default to believing whatever it is that you believe, and we’ll get into that for your clients. But they’ve got new leads as a folder. That’s a folder you can go into where there’s all sorts of stuff in there. Then they have warm or good leads, like, oh, we’ve started to move along in the conversation.
And there’s also hot leads, People who are ready to go, and it’s time to just, like, hop on a call and have a conversation. Now those are folders to go into, but this is where she starts very often with this. First name, last name. So Joanna Weeb exclamation point.
That’s the first thing she hits that on her keyboard. She replaces it with first name, last name. Boards isn’t quite that smart yet to do that. So she has to manually do that, but she always knows that’s what it is.
Then the second one, thanks for commenting on my post. She hits enter after that. Always hitting enter. Always hitting enter really quick, snappy messages, and then appreciate it.
That’s how she opens up a lot of conversations. There are other ways to open up conversations like, hi. Thanks for the follow and support. How did you stumble across my stuff?
And, hey. Are you here for the bids or do you have a freelancing goal? Those are the three most common ways that we open a conversation, those three with first name, last name, and then these followed by those other two that I just showed you. We’re playing with different ones all the time.
I’m not gonna get too deeply into that. We can talk about it later. What I wanna do is just show you what boards is and why I say you should be on boards when you’re bored. Because when you’re standing in a line, when you’re sitting in front of whatever you’re watching at night, when you’re even just on a treadmill and you have a choice.
You can stare at a screen in front of you that has, like, some sports recap on it at the gym when you’re like, I really don’t care. And if you’re not listening to an audiobook or even if you are and you’ve heard it a million times, you can hop on your phone and be welcoming new followers on LinkedIn, again, on Facebook, wherever this thing may be that you’re actually focusing.
When you’re bored, that’s a signal for you to hop on your phone and start interacting with the people who follow you. So we’re gonna get into why and how that works. But the idea is, of course, to open conversations with prospects that we can close. Now this is working incredibly well for people selling all kinds of packages to clients, but know that it’s happening with people selling packages to clients, by which I mean, it can happen for you very, very easily.
One of the coaching programs I’m in, this is a bit of an ex like, a out of control, result. But after nurturing a lead for a couple months, this one person, not the coach, one of the students in this group coaching program, was able to close a twenty million dollar project. It was a long sales cycle. Don’t get me wrong.
And all sorts of stuff. I’m not saying you’re gonna close a twenty million dollar project. What I’m saying is even the most ridiculously large projects are, like, waiting to be closed to open, nurture, and close just with people who are on Instagram.
That’s it. Really straightforward stuff. You can close twenty thousand dollar projects this way. You can close two hundred dollar like, let’s hop on a call right now and have a quick back and forth to to get through your strategy or whatever it might be. You could close all sorts of things on these calls.
You should, of course, obviously be focus focusing on your specialized project. That’s what you’re trying to get everybody into. But if you have a first thing such as let’s hop on a call, we’ll brainstorm some ideas, here’s a link to buy my time and book my time, etcetera. Cool.
Cool. Cool. That’s what we’re talking about. That’s what we’re thinking about. So I know a lot of people who here use Instagram, chat on Instagram, or, like, good idea, but it’s not for me.
Try it.
Try it. It’s working for us, and I recommend that you get cracking on it. So you wanna install boards on your phone and, of course, in your browser because you can do stuff with that. I’ve got it up here in my browser.
You’re basically using it to replace your keyboard. That’s it. And only when you need to replace your keyboard with prewritten texts.
Always be on your phone. You already are. So now do work on it. So you can open with all new followers or commenters as soon as possible and nurture them night and day.
Boards and something called ManyChat work really well together. You’re going to want to use both. We’ll talk about ManyChat later. Boards is the quickest way to just get going.
I already said, hit send after every thought, every sentence, no paragraphs. Right? Like, you’re a teenager, just get in there and go, and show engagement and responsiveness. So you might start with scripted stuff, and then you wanna make sure you’re listening to them and having a conversation with them without falling into the friend zone.
This is really critical. When you are somebody who is an expert in the thing that you do, even when it feels like you’re really accessible and, like, oh, wow. Johnson’s on the other side of this chat. I can’t believe I’m talking to the copywriter that I wanna hire.
I wanna, like, chat with Johnson about, like, where he lives and what he’s doing and how business is going for him. And you have to be careful not to fall into that friend zone because you’re not here to just, like, hey. Let’s hang and talk about shit. You’re here to actually move them through getting you on board with, like, hiring you.
Okay? So here’s how we do that.
Nine parts as I promised.
Open a conversation.
We’re talking about opens with boards. Qualify that person. Are are they right for you? Are they a good fit?
If they’re not, you’re allowed to just bring that conversation to a close. You don’t owe anybody anything. Just make sure that you’re closing it off. Right?
Like, in a nice way. Like, wow. That’s so cool, and then just leave it.
Convert to call is the third and final step. In most cases, you’ll want to convert to call. Everybody in Coffee School Pro should be trying to get somebody on a call so they can have a good conversation with them. Alright.
So that’s the basic. Those are the three steps that we’re working through. Then under each of those, in this order, first, we want to appear to them. Right?
So that’s that thing where, hey. Thanks for the follow. How’d you stumble on my stuff? Or the other one I showed you, which is first, last, Joanna Weeb, Johnson’s Bank.
Who else we have here?
Jessica Noel. Whatever it could be. Thanks for commenting on my post. Appreciate it. Then they reply, and then you have an engaging moment.
This is the open this is where you know something about them. So if you see if you go look at them, you see, oh, they’re VP of marketing at Audio Technica. Okay. Cool.
Audio Technica is cool. I have your mic or something.
How long have you been there? Whatever that could be, but you’re really just starting to open a conversation that’s not about them as necessarily people, but rather as business people. So you’re in business, they’re in business, you’re going to talk about business. They’re probably not following you for shits and giggles.
Right? They’re probably following you because they liked something you had to share about your area of expertise, and they’re like, that’s very interesting. I wanna know more. So you’re allowed to start talking with them about that stuff.
And I wouldn’t even say you should prequalify anyone at this point. Everybody who comes into your Instagram gets these messages.
Now if it comes down to this and they haven’t replied to your appear, if you’ve said, like, hey. Thanks for commenting or, hey. Thanks for the follow. Appreciate it. And they don’t say anything back to you, you don’t have to continue on. Like, you can just stop there. And if they come back with something like, totally.
Hey.
What supplements do you use? And you can tell they’re about to, like, try to sell you supplements. You can just, like, casually fail on that conversation so you don’t have to go here. But we’re assuming things are actually going along well. You’re not attracting people who just want to sell you supplements.
So you can move forward with that. So just, like, connect with them. It could be as simple as love your Instagram, or how long have you been in email marketing or both. Right?
We’re just trying to really advance the conversation toward where we want them to go, which is getting on a phone call with you. Then this is an important one, and this I learned from one of my coaches. We didn’t even realize we were doing it, and then we felt really good that we were doing it. And ours was, are you an in house, copywriter, or are you freelance?
So this is where are you x or y? So that they just reply with one of the two things, and you wanna know what that thing is so that you can take the conversation to the next part which is qualifying them. So if it’s this, that, do you have an email team, or do you use freelancers?
Do you run email, or do you have a VP of life cycle? Whatever that could be. Right? And I’m saying email here, but whatever your example is for your situation, the point is, this is the point at which we give them a this or that.
Are you this or are you that? Do you want this or do you want that? Whatever it could be. Right?
Then we’ve opened the conversation. We’ve got them talking about work.
Don’t worry if you’re like, oh, no. They’re gonna know that I’m trying to sell them.
Yeah.
It’s okay. It’s okay when you go on to a you go into a store and someone wants to help you get something.
We can’t assume everybody’s a browser, and we can’t assume that you’re going to serve everybody who’s here to browse and just, like, hang up. You’re allowed to sell. So if anything’s getting in the way for you here where you’re like, it feels inauthentic because I’m pretending to show interest, and what I really wanna do is just make money off them. One, just actually show interest then. Like, just be interested.
And then from there, don’t worry. Don’t worry too much with how it’s coming off. You’re still learning this stuff. You’ll get to a place where you feel, like, really good about this conversation that’s getting them what they want.
If you are sharing your specialization and your thought leadership and who you are on Instagram or wherever you do this, then they’re responding to that. So you’ve already established good things that make them want to follow you or comment on your stuff. You’re allowed to take it to the next level. You’re allowed to assume that they’re ready for some level of project engagement with you.
Okay.
Qualifying comes next. This is where we want to identify the gap. So this, that, and the gap are two really important parts in here that you wanna be careful not to just kind of, like, glaze over. The gap is where they are able to identify this is what I want, but this is what’s happening, and they can see there’s a gap.
I want to make twenty thousand dollars a month. I’m making eight thousand dollars a month. So there’s a twelve thousand dollar gap in there. Do I have a plan to get to close that gap?
If it’s due more of the same, is it can I reasonably expect to close that gap? So, no, we wanna make sure that they’re acknowledging the gap between what they have and what they want. How are your emails selling right now? Where would you like them to be?
Ask both of those in the same line. How are your ads performing right now, and how do you wish they would perform? What’s your cost to acquire a customer right now? Now?
What do you wish it would be or what do you believe it should be?
Those sorts of things. Okay? So we’re trying to establish and this is again going to be tied to your specialization, the thing that you do, the offer that you are trying to eventually get them to say yes to. You’re qualifying them. If they’re like, oh, well, we don’t really do emails.
Oh, cool. Then you bail. Right? So just know that that’s what we’re working through.
Then comes the obstacle.
So this is like there’s different ways you can go through from this point on.
I like the obstacle. So here’s the gap, and then what’s getting in the way. So what’s getting in the way of your emails performing you or what’s getting in the way of you going from eight thousand dollars to twenty thousand dollars? What have you tried so far?
And And that’s where they start self diagnosing the problem. Well, I’m not really sure. I’ve read all these books, or I bought this book and haven’t read it. Have you thought of reading the book?
Those kinds of things. Right? You can talk through and they’re like, well, I just don’t believe it’s the book.
I think what I really need to do is x, and I just wish I had somebody I could talk to about this or whatever it could be.
Right? And then we can get into offering the help. That’s interesting. I’ve got some ideas. Do you wanna talk?
And very quickly, moving that to a call. Very quickly. As soon as we get into offering help, we’re offer help might actually need to be over in the convert to call side of things because you’re ready there to start moving them to hopping on a call with you. And in this situation, you do need to be ready to have your, like, to be ready to hop on your audio on your phone because you’re Instagramming them.
So you might as well call. Right? Just hop on a phone call with them. Great.
What’s your best number? How can I reach you? Are you free right now? And if they’re like, oh, no.
I’m at work right now. I can’t talk right now. Like, I have a meeting I’m going into. No worries.
Let me get you my calendar link. Or if they’re like, here’s my number score. You’ve done very, very well. Excellent.
Get on that freaking call where you can close them there. But what we wanna do in a lot of cases, they’ll be like, I’m busy because they’re scared to get on a call with you. And that’s where you’re like, no worries. Let me get you my calendar link.
Here’s my Calendly, and then you wait.
Hey. Did that work for you? Did that link work for you? And you wait for them to reply with, yeah.
I got it. Or, yep. I actually, I couldn’t find any time that works for me. And then you can go further.
Okay? If there’s well, what time does work for you? Are you free in thirty minutes? Are you free tomorrow at two PM?
I’m in Pacific time. Where are you at? So you’re just now working to get them to say yes to a call.
That’s the whole thing. It happens on social media, in DMs, privately, but that’s that’s really the objective. That’s all you’re working toward. So what you can do with this is brainstorm your own opens, your own qualifying questions, and that’s, like, all of the stuff, the gap.
Start writing all that stuff down and then converting, of course. I have this under advanced because it’s pretty advanced for most freelancers to start doing this, but the actual techniques are really, really simple. Go into boards. Start setting these up as really basic, like, you’ve got them all right here.
All three of these. So first, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. You can just put numbers on them and just be ready to hit those numbers. Right?
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. It’s one more great way where if you are putting content out into the world, you deserve to do something with that. You don’t just put it out there and, like, hope everybody’s really happy with you because you can’t pay bills with happiness.
What you want to do is make sure that you are converting, converting them to a call, and then we can talk more about what happens in those calls. That’s where you’ll the diagnostic and other things that we’ve talked about already. Cool?
Cool. There’s chat here.
Who chatted what? Oh, good. Thank you.
Questions.
Where are you at?
You ready to go? Ready to do it?
Scared to do it? I’m not, back on, I’m not running my socials again yet, but this, this is really and I’m I’m is it next week we’re gonna do ManyChat?
Next week in, the intensive freelancing, we’ll be talking about ManyChat and showing it, but not, doing, like, an intensive training on it because it’s, like, really deep. Although, I will direct you to training on it. Yeah.
Okay. Cool. Yeah. But, no, this is, this is amazing and exciting. I’m just not I’m not on socials back on yet, but, it’s really cool.
Cool. Awesome. Jessica, Caroline, anything to add?
I have a question if that’s alright. Well, as do it.
Okay. So I don’t I always get myself in these predicaments.
But, as you were speaking, I was like, gosh. You would I I have a right in Maine, you know, my company’s name as an Instagram face, all the things. Right? But then when I started my newsletter, I named it the holiday win because I wanted it to be really clear that it was about seasonal and holiday sales.
So then I got all the socials related to that. And now sitting here going, okay. Where am I building a brand? So I was just wondering with this because I’m assuming it’s all through one, you know, like, one account in Instagram or something.
You know? So I was just curious what your thoughts were on that.
Yeah.
I mean, there’s definitely no point in spreading yourself thin, unless you have, like, a massive team of multiple people who can run your social. I would just just merge it or just choose, like, what to do there.
But you gotta choose one. There’s gotta be just one account.
Can’t be both, which might mean giving up everybody from right in Maine just, like, posting on there, like, hey.
I’m moving over to this now, and here’s why.
And then you can do a bunch of stuff on here’s why you’re focusing, and that will help move them over and under and help them understand why they should follow you over at the holiday win. Okay. Alright. Thank you.
Yeah. I’d make it content, though. Though. Like, it’s cool that you’re making this business decision, and you can be really transparent with that and, like, share it on social.
Okay.
Cool. Awesome. Alright.
Good. Anybody else have any questions?
Are we wrapping up early today?
Oh, no. Sorry. I thought oh, go ahead, Johnson.
Are we ready to dive into business questions? Remember, a win first. Awesome.
Well, I’ll let go Jessica go because I I don’t I don’t I don’t know. I have a win. Okay.
I think it’ll win.
I have a list, Johnson.
Are you sure?
K. Yeah.
No problem.
Win, which is actually connected to one of my questions as well. So I had a ecommerce SaaS company reach out. They’re doing a master class on copywriting.
So the win is a compliment that they’re seeking out me, I guess, as a speaker.
But my question is when I followed up, it’s sure. It’s copywriting and all that, but it’s a lot of things it’s not even close to my specialization.
It’s actually something I don’t.
So it’s store your basically, your brand story and the narrative and the messaging around your brand and all that, so it’s big. And then the time allotted is actually quite small, in my opinion, to go deep on that. But on top of it, then I’m also seeing they’re going, this is really not in my mind, I guess, not directly connected to what I wanna do or any offer I have.
And it does sound like the audience, while it is ecommerce brands, it’s I’m it sounds like it’s gonna be a lot of start ups, which isn’t really probably my most ideal customer. But I guess my my question is, off of that, should I say yes anyway and just do as much as I can or spend that time that I will I would have to put in to make it good, making my own authority content on something that is directly related.
I think that you may be able to do both k. Unless they say no. So what I would have you pitch them on have you said, like, oh, I don’t do brand story. I can connect with someone who does if your audience really wants it. What I do that I think your audience will go bananas for is help them get more out of the people the customers they acquire with a discount.
If they say, oh, no. No. Thank you. Then that’s what’s weird for one. It’s a virtual summit, it sounds like.
Yes. Yep. Is they got room.
They got room to put you in there for something else. Just like I would say, no. But I’ll do this other thing for you and just, like, pitch that. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Alright.
So that was question one. Johnson, you wanna jump in? Because I have more.
Yeah. So I’ll yes.
Well, it’s not really a win, but, I have a client. I I mentioned this in the, the CSP Slack, but, I have a client. He does NetSuite rescues if you’re familiar with that. I wasn’t. But, it’s the the projects are big big money, but he’s a he’s a small kind of small team. So he’s probably not gonna be able to do more than about ten or twelve a year.
But he’s going from kind of in house to freelance or agency and, just in the process of finishing up his website.
And so the the kind of win is that, I’m the business needs, regular money coming in. I’ve just brought on a, a kind of a junior, content writer slash copywriter who is gonna be filling a a few different roles, but I need to pay her. I want to be secure that we have, know that we’ve got money to pay her, so that I can fully invest in her training. So I’ve I’ve come up with this, pitch for a initially, it’s just a LinkedIn retainer, which is this is obviously, like, not this isn’t where I wanna be going. This isn’t really what I wanna be doing. But I do know LinkedIn, and I think this is pretty easily systematisable.
And I think a lot of the work can be done by this new hire. So my time will remain free. And hopefully, we’ll be generating some income that can be used to do all this the more important stuff. So, it’s kind of actually around that is because I’m looking at I’m looking at, you know, you know, I’m looking at I’m building my list of, of people to reach out to to offer whiskey and other gifts, so that I can talk to them about their, their pains with the customer life cycle.
I was looking on SparkToro for, like, email, customer life cycles. There’s, like, no results. No there’s no doesn’t seem like there’s much there.
So my question for you is is just, where can is there where can I keep I’ve looked every I I I was looking for a place to to learn more about it? The the the only course that I could find the the top rated course on Google was a guy who made it, like, twelve years ago. Doesn’t he’s not even a copywriter.
I don’t it’s the oldest web page in the world. And so, I think I’m just you know, and I know email, and I I’m starting to get a good understanding of this, and I almost feel like I could, make a pretty I mean, I feel like I have a pretty good I could make a pretty good go at it. But in terms of learning the skill, beyond doing ten x emails and you know?
Do you do you is there anyone that you would recommend to to to look to, who specializes in this?
No. Actually, it used to be Val Geisler. She was the right person to talk to about this sort of thing, just emails for SaaS.
There are other people who do it.
Sophia Lee comes to mind. I just don’t know that she teaches anything anywhere.
I mean, this is the kind of stuff that I mean, the good signal here is it’s pretty blue ocean.
So there’s no big fear that it’s filled with competition, unless those yeah.
So, no, there’s really not what I would say that you most likely need to do is research by talking to VP’s marketing, CEOs, CMOs, and people who are looking to hire someone. So I’d go look at, like, what do job descriptions for life cycle marketer or life cycle email or VP life cycle or whatever? What are they? What are they calling for?
What are they asking for? And that becomes, like, your new social media. Like, every bullet is what you talk about now, and then you make sure that that gets in front of people. But I think there’s the people I know who have done good emails for SaaS always end up, doing what most freelancers do, which is now I also do web pages for SaaS.
Now I also do this. Now I also do that, or going in house, which is the most likely route for that’s where Val went to. She vanished in house and then came out without the same level of authority, sadly, that she had going in, and that she could have built out on her own. So there’s not a lot out there.
Because I I the thing is I I I want to start talking about it. I’m Yeah. Good. I love you know, I I mean, I didn’t love doing the LinkedIn, content, but I it was good.
It was it was it was good. And so I wanna get back to it, but I just obviously, I don’t feel like I have the I don’t have the experience yet to to speak to to even really know the the the types of content that that would be attracting their my ideal lead. So that I think that’s where this question is coming from. I feel like it’s very vague.
But, yeah, I I I just Your question is where can you learn this stuff.
Right? Yeah.
Kind yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And then the answer is nowhere.
What? The answer is it’s email for SaaS. It’s just people who have SaaS companies that can afford you will call it life cycle.
That’s the thing. So if you search life cycle email, it doesn’t come up, probably because the right people who know all about it aren’t making content on it. They’re just looking for that. So they, like, their board mentions it to them.
Like, hey. How are we doing on life cycle? And they’re like, yeah. Super good. And then they go put together VP life cycle job posting.
So that’s the kind of, like, start by searching email for SaaS, and then follow the really clever stuff, like the really interesting things, not general email stuff.
Okay. Okay. And then I once I start to identify those things that people are caring about, once I’ve spoken to one of these people on the lists that I’m building, then I’ll have a better idea of what content to target to them. Right?
Well and just start right now too. Right? Like, you don’t need a perfect list, and then you submit that to the Instagram gods, and they go, yes. It’s approved. You may do this. It just you just start. So just start.
Just start posting it. I would I’m, like, just honestly, I know it sounds dumb.
Just go because one thing I do think about is I have about I I have maybe, five to six months of content I can repost from LinkedIn. It’s all heavy story based stuff. It’s all carousel, so it’s ready to go basically for Instagram. But, obviously, it’s it’s it’s more general.
It’s more general copywriting conversion persuasion, content.
We I mean, I guess now that I’m saying it loud, that that’s obviously gotta be better than doing nothing. So I should just do that. Okay. Cool.
Please do something.
Ideally, don’t do a thing that will lead leads to say, hey. Can we hire you for this if you don’t want to do it or if it’s not part of what you do anymore? Because now you have to get really good at saying no, and that’s a whole other skill set. Right? Like yeah.
And the answer happens. That’s gonna be okay. Yeah. Alright. Cool. Thank you, Jo.
Sure. Alright. Jessica, do you have more questions?
Mhmm. Yes.
Hear it.
That’s one of my goals for CSP is that I have to show up with questions on the post it note.
So just preparing you for the future.
That’s great.
I love it. So these are could be combined. I’m not really sure, but I need to create a lead magnet. And I also kind of had this I was looking ahead a little bit at your, everything you shared today about the retainer.
And I got to the part where you and I have had many of conversations about looking at minutes as money as well. Mhmm. And, and so I guess I’m in this kind of place where I know I need to quadruple down on all authority building and all sorts of things.
And when you don’t have enough money, then you have to invest the time. But when you have maybe some money, you could invest. And I’m in one of those conundrums where I’m like, okay. I know I do need a lead magnet.
I know I have some money, but I’m not sure where to spend my time and where to maybe invest a little bit of the money. And Okay. So I was just kind of hoping for a little bit of help, and I just thought for a round number. Like, if you had to if you had maybe a thousand to two thousand dollars to play with lead gen or something, and, obviously, the result you want is maybe double your money or maybe one point two or I don’t care. Whatever the make some profit off of it. What would you say in terms of spending the money versus spending the time?
It’s tricky because the best place to spend your time is on things that are directly tied to money coming in. Yeah. So that’s great. And that’s but that’s true for anybody you hire as well. That should also be directly tied to that, and that’s where you’d spend money. I’d spend money on people, likely, on the right person, to do a thing. And it’s really a question of what the thing is.
If it’s a thing that you can do easily yourself and you are happy to do yourself and it’s not tied to money, I think that’s where a lot of people tend to.
It’s it’s such a big question.
I know.
I’m sorry. You’re trying no. No. No. It’s good. Like, we can work through it together. Like, what do you have in mind?
Where were you thinking of putting it?
Okay. Well, I could hire someone to create the lead magnet itself, although I’ve created lead magnets very quickly with AI and myself. So and I don’t mind doing it. I actually have a lot of fun. So that’s I could do that. But I think the so then the other thought I had was someone repurposing.
Like, I love getting on video and doing stuff, But then I was like, do I pay someone to repurpose all the social? But that’s not I don’t know. Unless until you started talking about the many chats and things like that, that didn’t feel direct enough to true lead gen.
So I I genuinely don’t know. I really don’t.
It’s tough with thought leadership because it’s so much of it depends on you. Right? And if a lead magnet does feel like the natural thing, but, like you said, you can do these things yourself and you know how and you like it. And, honestly, how detailed does like, how much time does it need to take?
As in, could you create a really good lead magnet on your phone right now if you just made notes about, like, three really cool points to hit and then you just recorded it. That would be probably great. Right? Like, people would be able to consume it.
You could share it all over the place. You could cut it up everywhere.
So thought leadership’s a tricky one to outsource.
Where are you Well, and if you have other ideas, it doesn’t have to be the authority thing either.
I just I think the bigger thing for me is where can I start really how can I make a little bit money of money off of that so I could keep investing and eventually grow that, you know, investment into help or whatever it looks like? I don’t know.
Where are you growing right now the most?
Oh, DMs, apparently. Although that’s not because of a strategy.
That’s honestly, no. Honestly, I’m seeing a very strange I was gonna ask you if you had done something because I got all of a sudden several people from copy hackers. Like, someone I didn’t even know in the copy hackers community referred me to someone that they whatever. I got a former copy hackers review person that I used to review all of his copy and reviews. Do you remember that?
One of those people remember that stuff.
And then another one of those people reached out. So I don’t know. It’s frankly from work I did with you all several years ago that I Yay.
So, I mean, I thank you, number one.
But, like You did it.
Yeah. No. You did it. Well done.
The thing is that’s like okay. We’re we’re talking there, as you know, about planting a seed years ago, and now it’s harvest time for that, which is cool. That’s great.
You’re saying how can I buy a plant that’s already grown to that level, plant it immediately, and then reap benefits from that too, which is a very fair question?
It’s reasonable.
It’s just when I’m thinking about, like, the areas where you can grow I’m glad we have a lot of time in this call. Does does anybody have any thoughts on this?
I mean, I’ve I’ve done ads before, so I I know how to do it.
To spend. You wanna make it sorry. Go ahead, Jessica.
No. I’ve just I’ve I’ve, my reaction wasn’t to you, what you were saying. It was just my I’ve done ad funnels before, and I can do them. But I don’t that’s not really my long game. And so it feels like you spend so much upfront with ads to learn so that you could dial them in. And so then it’s like, well, if I don’t really want that to be a huge part of my business or a huge focus, that feels like short term thinking, and I don’t I don’t wanna do that either.
I’m wondering about, like I really can.
So the best so what you’ve said so far is source referral sources are bringing in a lot for you right now. I would wonder, is there a sponsorship that you can a good one. If you’re willing to experiment with the two thousand dollars, if you’re like, I want it to grow, but I know that there’s no sure thing except in the world of ads, and then you need to start with, like, twenty thousand and go up to a hundred be, like, really ready to scale that. Right?
So to me, I feel like I don’t want you to waste, but can you spread that out over if you can find four influential people, pay them five hundred bucks a piece on Instagram or LinkedIn or what feels right to you and get them to say something about you to their audience. You’d still have to put in the time to figure out what you want to do, but that could be.
If referrals are what’s driving things right now, it’s really, really tough. I’m gonna think about it. I would I would explore four people, five hundred bucks, to tell their audience about you. Can you find any, like, micro influencers in ecommerce?
Yeah. Okay. I can look into it.
So Could be sponsoring a newsletter.
Okay.
These are not typically good, though.
So that’s the trick. It’s not like sponsor a newsletter, get money. Although, you could. Like, it can happen.
It’s just not a sure thing. Right. And I know so little is, but I would start down that path. Okay.
Doesn’t mean it’s right now.
Okay. Now I’m gonna be thinking about this all day.
Alright. Alright. Alright.
Thank you. I think yep. That’s all of them for me.
We’re gonna think about this afterward.
What would you do? Because that’s just a good idea. If you have two thousand, you wanna make ten thousand, what do you do?
I honestly thought I would start a podcast around this, and this would be the first episode. You get a thousand dollars. You have to invest it in something as a freelancer that will bring in at least twelve hundred dollars or something like that. Like, you get you get your money back and maybe a little bit.
And I I don’t know. I just wanna start something off that just to ask people like you. Alright. What would you do?
Because investors were like, I don’t know.
Will count, like, with with that count? But because, I mean, that seems I mean, people are like, I mean, I don’t know what were what were you going, Jessica. Are you going the agency route or are you staying?
Yeah. I’d like to go to the agency route.
Yeah. Yeah. I was just wondering if you know, because, I mean, two thousand dollars depending on the VA gets you a good chunk of time, potentially a a a good, relationship, a good you know, a lot it’s not some time freed up for you to go and focus on other things. So maybe it’s not a direct output of money, but it is definitely like that seed, that, you know, in a few months, six months, twelve months, like, I imagine would would pay off way more than but but, I mean, that might not been what you were thinking.
I just want I’d want when I think of my VA, like, I have a so the person oh, the in the chat, I don’t know if you saw this, Johnson, but I know Joe did.
She had asked me about those videos, and I rehired an old video editor of mine who’s, like, my video VA. And I so I’m okay with I think just I have to be very clear about what are they doing. I don’t just want someone checking my emails or, you know, whatever. So it’s just it always comes back to I better have a very clear outcome that I’m asking them to do. Otherwise, it’ll drive me and them crazy.
So, yeah, I hear you, though.
I have to think about Didn’t you say that you are you still doing that, Joe, where you you spend an hour and you send do a bunch of video and then you send it off to your social media manager and they chop it up and slice slice it up and send it out into the channels.
Yep. That’s Nicole is here. That’s what she does. Yep. Totally. Oh, hey. Nicole like that.
I just did one this morning, Nicole. It’s in the Dropbox.
So, yeah, it’s a good thing to do.
Yeah. It’s it’s a yeah. Yeah.
I think about that a lot. I just I it’s nice to meet you, Nicole. I I thought about that a lot after you said that.
It’s, I told a lot of people about that who, you know, friends from TEDxFC.
Like, do you know Joe’s, like, hour a day. And then, like, that’s how it’s happening.
So yep. Yeah. It’s cool.
That’s funny. And that’s where if we had more constraints even, Jessica, around where you want to focus. Because if we knew, okay. Social is somewhere that started to take off for you or you wanna invest in it, then we could say, like, okay.
Why don’t you go and spend two thousand dollars plan out an event every week for the next week that you’re going to just, like, nail the you’re gonna go to hot yoga, and you’re gonna hire someone locally to film you. And then maybe you don’t have enough money left to do, but have them do the editing too, or maybe you do. But every week, it’s something, like, interesting that you can put on social media that you can, like, actively, I don’t know, feel really like this is this is at the heart of what people should start buying into when they buy into me, and it’s exciting, and it’s interest I don’t know what it is.
But, like, there are so many things you can do with two thousand dollars that it’s really hard to pinpoint the one winner winner. But it’d be good to even just make a list of what can you do with two thousand dollars depending on where you’re at. Yeah. And write in great content on that.
That’s kinda cool, Jessica.
It’s a good question. Good idea for the podcast. I mean, maybe not even a podcast. Like, just, reach out to people. Write a write a a content piece, get talk to the ten cool people and see what they’d say. I would absolutely read that.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Alright. Well, good. It’s not off my list then because I felt it was not staying focused on the holiday stuff.
But if you go off It’s not it’s a problem that way.
Do it. Yeah. No.
It’s an actual problem because it’s not focused on, on that. It’d probably have to just be, like, a small part, like, a segment of your podcast rather than the focus. Yeah.
But what you just said, though, Joe, about going out not to hot yoga because yeah.
Do things that make you uncomfortable. They’re more fun to have.
I’m totally fine. I’m it was the I’ll do the hot yoga.
I’ll do the video. I will not put them together with Jessica doing hot yoga and on video. Like, that’s where those two will not come together.
I like yoga. I like video not together.
Not for a long time.
Maybe maybe if I become a true yogi and really just look great in those pants, but I highly doubt it.
No.
It’s just not gonna happen.
But I like the idea. When you said going out and doing that kind of thing, that got me excited because I do like doing video and being, like, a broadcast journalist type thing.
Cool. Yeah.
Yeah. Just not the yoga place.
But, yes, that’s that that struck a chord.
So I will that’ll definitely be towards the top of the list. Okay. Dig it.
Alright. We’ll work on more ideas.
Can I ask another question?
Yeah.
Ten minutes.
I was just thinking about, the thing we talked about, I started I’ve I’ve been thinking more about, pirate metrics and specifically acquisition, activation.
And I kinda got really excited about it because it feels like this mega good fit with my my narrative selling concept.
And I feel like those are like it’s like a marriage made in heaven.
Okay. And so, I was just wondering, to to kinda get the other way of I know that a lot of times, it’s like we’re not going specific enough. How specific would be too specific in, acquisition, activation emails?
Because, I get where this question is coming from is is is my, my organic writing style is, it’s not b to b. It’s it’s, it’s a little irreverent. It’s a it’s it’s a little tongue in cheek. It’s a little, fun, or I think, Probably not everyone else does. So I was wondering if, if there was any, anything there to to consider, you know, activation emails for fun fun SaaS company or activation emails for SaaS companies that want to, stand out or yeah.
So the style is just the packaging of the message. Right? And so the message is the part that that makes the thing perform or have a chance at performing, then package goes around it. Right?
So that’s all you’re saying. So I would focus more on look. I’m gonna write you activation emails that get them to the next part the next stage that make them ready for the fully onboarded. They’ve hit the moment.
They’re ready to move into revenue and then retention.
I’m gonna get that there with this narrative, narrative selling idea.
Cool. How you do it, I would say, is another story, and I would encourage you to always be playing with these different the ways that you package the message. Sometimes it is. The right way to do it is gonna be really irreverent, and other times it’ll be really to the point, and, like, go, like, straight and narrow.
And what you don’t wanna do is set yourself up too much for your audience to go, oh, we don’t do that. When in fact, they do and they want it. They want the narrative selling thing that you’re talking about, but if you say, I like to be irreverent, they can’t get the CTO to sign off on that or the CFO to sign off on that or any c level to sign off on that.
So that’s the kind of thing where you just, like, just you’ll just keep that a secret. Yeah. It doesn’t matter what the ingredients are in Coca Cola.
We’re just gonna just gonna sell people on the a nice number of hand drinks.
That makes sense. I think I was thinking from a perspective of, like, you know, sometimes it can be, exhausting to write in a style that’s not that’s that’s very far away from where you organically write. And it could be it’s just a lot of brainpower to stay in that that voice. So I was just wondering if there was anything that might selfishly benefit me.
But that makes more sense. The the actual value for them is obviously figuring all of that out, and then the delivery is, the packaging is is is less, fundamental. But okay. Cool.
Yeah. It doesn’t need to be key in your messaging, but it will come out when you start talking with your lead about opportunities and things like that.
Yeah. Cool. Alright. Cool. Thanks.
Awesome.
Good. Alright. Thanks for all the questions, Johnson and Jessica.
Nailed it.
So, hopefully, that was helpful. This replay will be available soon. We have the intensive freelancing starting in a couple of hours. It’s going to be a lot of detail today, so look forward to that. And then, of course, next week’s intensive freelancing ties back to what we just talked about today. So it’s gonna come together. Alright?
Well, y’all have a good rest of your well, couple hours. Bye.
You too. Bye.
Bye.
So I’m, I’ve been tasked by Joe to talk to you about meaningful conversion optimization, and really just dig into how to do it the right way.
I’ve done I’ve been doing conversion optimization for really over a decade. I’ve known Joe for, jeez, like, thirteen, fourteen years now.
And we worked together on a handful of things.
And, really, the way my team and I approach conversion optimization is very different than the vast majority of CRO agencies, and that’s what I’m gonna be talking about today. So first thing I really wanna kinda dig into is the actual CRO process. So, I know some of you are just getting to know what conversion optimization is.
But, normally, when we talk about conversion optimization, we will see that there’s, like, a three step process. You first have to find the leak in the funnel. So there is the problem. You can go into Google Analytics, and it will tell you where the problem exists.
And then you have to create a new variation to optimize, and then you need to launch an experiment. And this can be on your landing pages, on your emails, on your website.
And and, like, launching an experiment kind of similar like finding the leak in the funnel is more or less simple if you have the right tools and if you have the right people. But the biggest black box in commercial optimization is creating a new variation.
It’s just thrown out there like, create a new variation, and it will be fine. But that’s like the hardest part of conversion optimization. And what we find is that most companies end up testing very specific elements, like reducing load time, adding an exit pop up, changing the call over call to action button, removing steps in the funnel, changing the headline. So really just moving elements on the page or changing them and thinking, okay.
This is just gonna work. It’s fine. And hopefully, you know, that this is gonna help. And essentially, what this is is just changing one element on the page.
So you’re taking your page, let’s say it’s a home page, and you’re changing one element and hoping it will work, and it really rarely does. And even if it does increase conversions, what have you even learned from it? What have you been what are you able to do with this information? Can you scale it?
Can you learn from this in a way that will allow you to then take these learnings and use them for your emails or use them for landing page optimization?
Normally, not.
So really, what we end up doing is finding that we are on this hamster wheel. And I and I really like talking about this hamster wheel because, this is what the really something everyone’s on. Right? We start testing random stuff because we don’t really know what we’re testing.
And then we think, you know what? Maybe our competitors know what they’re doing. So we go to our competitors’ websites, and we copy them. And then we end up sounding like everyone else and looking like everyone else, and that’s not working. So we look for software and tools that can help us fix this, and then you test random stuff again. So because you you don’t really know how to use the tools.
So, really, in conversion optimization, there is a big problem. There is a flaw, because this is how everyone’s approaching it. And, really, it’s because we’re all looking at graphs and numbers, and we’re trying to segment our audience into behavioral pieces.
You know, where we say, okay. Things aren’t converting. What should we do? Let’s go to Google Analytics and figure it out. And we can see that we’re talking to a certain age and a certain geographical location, and maybe it’s a certain gender, but we don’t really know what to do next.
And the thing is that in order to really increase conversions, you have to understand something far more important.
Number one is that conversion optimization isn’t about changing elements on the page. It’s about solving people’s problems.
If you control people’s problems on a website or in any page, you will increase your conversions. And that is really different than what most approach look like because, really, most approaches are about, okay, find the problem, fix it quickly, maybe change something about it, and it will increase conversions. But, really, that is not what conversion optimization is about. What you really wanna do is understand people’s problems. You wanna understand what’s what their pains are, what their challenges are, and translate that into a better experience.
And this is really where the emotional targeting framework comes in, which is a framework that I built, I don’t know, twelve, thirteen, fourteen years ago and have been optimizing ever since. So, I’ve tested this on thousands of landing pages, hundreds of businesses, and it really is the art and science of understanding how people make decisions.
And the reason we try to figure this out is because if you can influence people’s decision making process, that means you’re going to increase conversions. So you have to understand how people make decisions, not if they are male or female, not if they’re thirty five or twenty five. What you really need to understand is who they are, how they make decisions, what motivates them in life, what pains them in life, and how they really make a decision about whether to buy something or not.
So this takes us away from the conversation of age and geolocation and title and gender and browser devices.
What we want to really think about is why do people buy from us. Now most companies already say, well, you know, the reason people buy from us is because we have a great we have greater technology or features or pricing.
But I really am here to tell you that this is not why people buy.
Really, there is these are the things that will once they’ve decided to buy from you, they will look at and decide if that makes sense or not. But this isn’t why people buy. In fact, no one actually cares about what you’re selling.
And in order to figure out why people buy, you have to understand how people make decisions. So as I said, this is how we think people make decisions. We think that people go for this elaborate process of thinking about the pros and the cons and does this work? Doesn’t it work? Should I choose this? Should I not? And then suddenly, I will reach a rational decision, and it will all make sense.
Psychologists, scientists, the biggest brands in the world like Nike and Lego all know that this is not how people make decisions.
Really, this is.
Everything in life, every decision that we make is based on emotion.
We attach an emotional reason to it. We have different emotional triggers and drivers that will decide whether we buy something or not. And later on, we will rationalize it. So if you ask someone why they buy from you, they will tell you, you know, it’s your features, it’s your technology, it’s the solution that you’re selling.
But it was an emotional decision. Our brain is quick. It’s intuitive. It’s sharp. It makes decisions based on our emotions.
In fact, even Antonio Damasio, who is a professor of psychology, ran some really interesting, research. One of them was on people that have brain damage. And what he discovered is though these people that have specific brain damage, which was tied to could not feel any emotion, they could go about their lives more or less the same. So these are people that could couldn’t feel any emotion.
But when he looked and he studied them, he figured out, okay. These people are more or less going about their lives as usual, but they had one big thing, and that is they couldn’t make any decision in life at all, not even what sandwich they should eat. And this is where he said, you know, we’re not thinking machines that feel. We are feeling machines that think.
And this is crucial because without emotion, we lack the ability to make decision. This isn’t something that’s fluffy and cute and nice to think about. It’s actual science. If there isn’t any emotion, we can’t make the decision.
So when you’re thinking about why people buy from you, you need to step back and not think about, okay. It’s these features or AI or technology.
It’s what people are actually thinking about and how they feel. They’re thinking about, will I get a career advancement? Will people see me as the go to person in the office? Will I feel more confident? Will I get promoted?
You know, will this make me a better a better mom, a better walker, a better whatever?
Will they like me more? All these decisions are based on how we want to feel, how we feel right now, and how we want to feel off to finding the solution.
So emotional targeting really is a framework that helps us understand those motivators, why people what their emotions are and how we can tap into those and really help them make a better decision for themselves.
So let’s quickly kind of review, this framework and how we use promotional targeting to increase conversions for our clients.
So there is a few steps in our process. Number one is running meaningful CRO research, and I will get into this in a moment, but really diving into who are our customers.
How do they feel? How do they want to feel?
What are the things that are really stopping them from converting? What are the things that are keeping them up at night?
Then we run an emotional resonance audit, which means once we’re geared with these insights of who our customers truly are, we can then audit our pages, our website, our emails, and it’s so much easier to know what the problem is. If before we went into Google Analytics and we found out that the home page was a problem and we went to the home page and we looked at it, the the actual angle we’d be thinking about is, okay, best practices say you should have you shouldn’t have a carousel or you should have your CTA above the fold. You would be thinking about it as best practices and what do other websites do.
But if you run your customer research beforehand when you go to your website, it’s so much easier to see the problem, what’s not working, and why things aren’t resonating, and why people aren’t connecting on an emotional level. So once we’ve done that, we optimize our pages with emotion using copy, designing, x, and other methods that I will show, and, of course, running meaningful experiments. And this kind of goes, in a kind of circular motion where we’re constantly testing and running more research for our clients and running more experiments.
So step number one is really meaningful CRU research designed to uncover the real why.
Here are some of the things that you want to uncover when you’re thinking about this research. What pain does my customer feel before finding a solution?
What are their emotional triggers that drive their decision making? What are their hesitations and concerns? And how do they want to feel after finding a solution? This is different questions that are more unique and really do go into the core of people’s emotional drivers of why they buy things.
Once you have, answered those questions with your research, you can then audit your pages strategically.
And you can ask yourself questions like, can people immediately see the why and what’s in it for them?
Are you incorporating the emotional outcomes that prospects care about? Are you using words and descriptions that prospects relate to? And what aren’t you saying that people need to see, feel, and read on the page? And you can only answer these questions when you have real meaningful customer insights.
When you ask people why they signed up or why they did something and you’re getting these shallow answers, you won’t be able to actually answer this. And these are the most crucial ones because when you can answer these, you’ll know exactly what copy to choose. You’ll know what images to choose, what colors to choose for your pages. So each of these questions is really important in order to identify what’s not working, what isn’t resonating on an emotional level, what isn’t connecting for people.
So you’ve done your research. You have audited your pages strategically. And next, what you wanna be doing is optimizing your pages with emotion.
And that means everything that you do, in your copy, in your design, in every single element of your customer journey. You want to make it about them. You’ll notice that most companies make it about themselves. You’ll see sentences like the only one solution for x or powered by AI or we we’re the only people that do this. It’s mostly when you look at coffee, especially in b two b companies, but also in ecommerce and any other industries, you’ll see that most of the messaging is about the company and the solution itself. But with emotional targeting, you want to make everything on the page about them.
You want to tell the stories and use words that they resonate with. You want to make sure that your messaging is connected to every stage of their awareness to ensure that the visuals that you’re using amplify your message. I know everyone in the room is a copywriter, but imagery is what helps amplify the message that you were writing. So it’s not enough just to write good copy. You have to be able to attach meaningful visuals and images and colors to your messaging so that when people look at them, your message resonates with them and amplifies that message.
And, of course, you need to ensure that emotion is consistent throughout the entire page, the entire website, and not just a page header.
We’ve done this even on menus and navigations for websites where you connect and resonate on an emotional level with, prospects.
I’ll show you an example. So, really, once you’ve done your research and you have audited your website or your page from a strategic level, and you have started to create new variations with your copy and your design that are geared with emotion, then you want to stop running experiments.
Emotion based tests. This means that if we’re looking at Teamwork, one of our clients, they have a comparison page. The idea here is you’re not going to simply change the headline. You’re not simply just going to try and change the CTA, but what you’re trying to do is create better comparison page. And, really, comparison pages are super important because whether you want to admit it or not, anyone coming into your website or your client’s website is comparing them to their competitor. And you want to create pages that actually help people make decisions.
But how can you create that? How can you create a really good comparison page if you don’t understand what the criteria is? If you go to most comparison pages, and this was the same for Teamwork, they had this header on their home on their comparison page, and below that was a simple table. Just showed the different features that Bryte had and the different features that Teamwork had and just comparison between those. But that doesn’t answer critical questions that their customers cared about. So when we did our own research with Teamwork and when we tried to go deeper in understanding, okay, why would people choose, Teamwork like, we really were able to identify different critical things for people, like the fact that they wanted it to be that they wanted a project management solution to really be geared for the kind of work that they do.
Teamwork’s ICP are agencies.
They’re people that do client work, and we wanted to show anyone that came to this page that was con basically comparing Teamwork to Wrike that this was the best platform to do client work on. If you run client work or you’re an agency, you want to use Teamwork for project management.
And that meant that we would include all information that they cared about, every single piece. It was about the fact that it was designed for client work. It was about the fact that when we did research and we interviewed people that switched from Wrike or were just looking for different tools, they noticed that they would get constant upsells. So even though other tools looked cheaper, Teamwork was actually cheaper at the at the end of it.
So actually calling out the different things that Zwipe did in a in in a way that didn’t help customers and adding so much more copy and so much more visuals and a lot more information for, these prospects helped them make a better decision, and that led to a fifty four percent increase in free trials. And it really was interesting to see because this client did not want such a long page, not want all these visuals, did not believe in this approach. But once we clearly said, hey. If you run client work, these are the things you care about.
You care about the fact that this tool was built by people that understand client work. You care about the fact that other teams like you are using it. You care about upsells, and you care about different emotional triggers, and here they all are on the page for you to make a decision.
We did the same with their home page. So the original home page was at last easy to use project management software. You want outgrow outgrow.
Literally, I could change the logo to Asana Wrike Monday, and you wouldn’t know what product this is. There was nothing in here that was speaking specifically to customers.
But once we changed it to one new client work in the OMB platform that’s actually built for it and had specific, visuals below the fold and also, bullet points that focused on the kind of warmth that they care about, we were able to increase their conversions.
So mostly what I came in to talk to you very briefly today is about starting to think in everything that you do about emotional targeting, about understanding the emotional drivers of your prospects.
Instead of a few right now trying to think about, okay, how can I optimize, a page? How can I optimize an email? I want you to flip the process.
Start by conducting meaningful customer research about your customers to uncover those emotional triggers, to uncover those emotional drivers, and only then audit your funnels and your pages and your emails to identify what’s not working rather than trying to do the opposite.
Then you can optimize your copy and design with emotion, and you can run meaningful experiments. So this was quite quick, but just a bit of a taste into what this framework is all about.
This QR code leads to our checklist, which will give you all the strategic questions that we ask when we, audit a website strategically.
So I think that’s it.
Thanks, Talia. That was awesome.
A lot of good stuff packed into it.
Twenty four minutes. That’s awesome.
Developing Your Diagnostic
Developing Your Diagnostic
Transcript
Today, as you saw in the worksheets, thanks for coming on camera. We’re gonna be talking about a diagnostic tool, and we’ll get into the details of that. As always, we’re gonna kick it off with some training And then, in today’s training though, we’ll be spending some time doing, like, work, based on the training. So expect to, you know, put aside twenty minutes at the end of this to start doing some thinking through what we’re talking about. And then we’ll do the usual AMA.
Always kick it off with a win, please, a win of any kind helps everybody stay motivated and see how many cool things there are to do out there. And then any any question you got, the more specific, the more context you can give the better.
Everybody good.
Good. Alright. We’re recording this. When you ask a question, please do come on camera wherever possible.
Please do be on camera so people can connect with you and see a smiling or whatever face you don’t have to smile no more. Whatever feels right is good. Okay. I am going to share my screen.
Alright. So this is this is cool. This is something that we’ve been working on for a little while.
For freelancing school as well as for people who are going to be joining, copy school pro. And that is a better way to diagnose what you need to work on because a lot of people are looking for road maps. Right? And that’s not just for students.
Your clients also want some form of roadmap. Like, what are you what what are we here for? Where are you gonna take me How do I know it’s the right thing to do? So this tool is a way and you’re gonna come up with your own today.
It’ll be the starting point for your own. This is a tool that helps you across every part of converting and delivering to people and also setting projects. So, You may have questions about this. I don’t think you’re gonna walk out of today’s session going.
I totally get it. I got the right one. It’s perfect. Everything’s amazing. This is gonna be the beginning of starting to think through something that you might work out over the course of the next month.
But here is the idea. So I’m on this.
Why does it say that’s page two? Everything says page two. It’s not. It’s actually four. Sorry.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter. But it’s the general diagnostic template. This page in your worksheet your workbook.
This is the idea here. Hopefully, you’re not on a very small screen.
The, again, the idea here is to figure out what the general three or four parts of what you deliver that is a solution to your client or student as you start to scale to teaching more to their problem what that what that is so you can then go in and say, here’s what you’re missing, here’s what you don’t have to work on, but here’s what do have to work on here is how we can work together. So, for example, I’m gonna show you first of all, like the end. What we’re working toward. Now this is our model. It’s currently called the Sunshine growth model because it looks a little bit like a this is multiple iterations on it that I’ve been playing with, but let me zoom in here and then we can talk specifically about what the hell it even is. Okay.
So someone comes to me and this is based on just years and years of coaching freelance copywriters and particular but also marketing consultants, etcetera.
Someone comes to me and they’re like, Joe, I’m, you know, I’ve plateaued. I would love to get to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars is the most common thing that people say. I’m at about a hundred. I wanna get to two fifty. What’s stopping me?
And so really what I’m hearing is like you’d like to get to about a grand a day of consistent income. And so that could be twenty days of the work month that works out to about two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year or all the days, and that works out to about three hundred sixty thousand dollars a year. So that’s the problem that most people come to me trying to solve until they get to that and they’re like, okay. Now I wanna get to three million.
I got to three sixty. Now I wanna get to three point six. Let’s do that. And that would still come down to a lot of what we’re seeing here.
So this is how it breaks down and then I’m gonna show you how it draws out when we’re talking with people who are considering coming in to copy school professional, and then we’ll talk about what that means for you and for your new clients, leads when you’re having those lead conversations as well as how you deliver on something with clients So this is one way to do it, especially if you have felt scattered. If you felt like there, people come to you for all the things and you know know what to say no to. You never feel really good saying no.
People come to you and they’re all for the same general thing, but they have different problems within that same general thing. And your job is always like a little too custom. You don’t want it to always be custom because then it’s hard to offload things to people. You don’t have the leverage of like, here is how we do this work.
Go do it for me so I can mark up what you do, and get paid for not doing anything other than basically teaching you for you to deliver for me and then I then bill. Let me explain. Okay. So someone comes to me and says, Joe, basically, I wanna make a thousand dollars a day help Cool.
There are four actually five but four key parts that usually their work comes down to. So we can say okay. I can draw this out sharing my iPad as shown in the worksheet and I can say, okay, let’s talk through these four things, your skills, your authority, your money, and that means all things money. Money, not as leverage, but money as pricing.
Are you targeting the right audience? Do you have everything that you need? In order to make that money that you want to. Does your current audience only want to spend a thousand dollars on a single VIP day and then they’ll hit you up every six months for one.
You can’t build a business that way. Right? So and then we talked about leverage. And then what’s keeping you from all of those things too is also mindset mindset or copywriters.
Like for nobody else mindset is like such a challenge. It’s very hard. If you don’t have mindset issues and a lot of people here are working really well through any that you might have and maybe getting to a point where you don’t have mindset issues. Congratulations because that’s again and again. And I’ve said this before in Copyschool Pro. It’s such a big deal.
Getting your head right about your skills, about your authority, about a about your sense of scarcity and money out there. Who would pay me for this? And then leverage getting your head right about people, what it means to hire someone, what it means to document a creative process.
Okay. So we can draw this out. And that’s exactly what we want to do. And I’m going to switch over to, my iPad right away here and show you what we do and what you should be doing when you are going through a diagnosis of how to solve a problem with your clients or leads. Sorry.
Boop. Okay. Really simply what we do and what I’m suggesting that you do and my iPad’s been flipping around a lot today. So hopefully it doesn’t mess it up.
But we draw a circle. It’s allowed to be ugly. It doesn’t have to be perfect. And in the middle, we put our one thousand.
And we’re drawing this and sharing it with them and like talking them through it. Right? And then we have these parts that come out of there and we write in skills and sorry just going through this authority.
Money and leverage, then talk them through that. And this is what you’ll be doing with your own process Right?
So, like, okay. Here’s the problem we wanna solve. Here in the middle, it’s a thousand dollars a day. That’s what we’re aiming toward.
Here are the things that are keeping you pretty much. Think about this for your client. Your clients come to you and they say we want five hundred more paid conversions a month. So you put that in the middle.
Here. Five hundred more paid conversions a month. So you put like five hundred or you turn that into the dollar figure, like each conversion is worth ten dollars. So that’s five thousand.
Okay. Fine. So you put that in the middle and then you talk through the parts that are your process that are like critical to delivering five thousand dollars or those five hundred paid conversions a month. So they’re seeing, okay, you’re walking them through.
There’s skills. There’s authority. There’s money. There’s leverage. In in our case, probably not in yours.
Yours might be research and discovery.
And like the conversion copy writing process or something like that, right? Even if it’s for SAS brands, you might be like, okay, we have, you know, the five parts It’s more of a Pentagon shape and it’s got all five parts of pirate metrics. Let’s say. But let’s let’s focus on this. So here’s what I do.
Get the person who you’re talking to to also write this out. So say, hey, pick up a piece of paper. I want you to draw this with me. So you draw a circle just like this. Yours will be better than mine. I’m not an artist, etcetera.
Write these words from there. You write skills, you write authority, you write money, you write leverage. Great. Cool. Now all I want you to do is write this out and then we’re going to see how you’re doing on all of these points. So we have advanced skills you can sell. We have case studies and proof and we have advanced skills you can use.
So that’s like in this case it might be something more like advanced skills you can sell are am I really, really good at writing long form sales pages. Do I have case studies and proof for long form sales pages? And do I have advanced skills that I can use in my business like setting up a funnel for new leads so that I can sell them long form sales pages? Okay.
So write those down. Don’t do anything with them yet. And then you move on to the next one. Alright.
Next up is authority.
You’ve got your specialization or your niche, and you’ve got thought leadership.
My penmanship is shit. Don’t worry. And then you’ve got things like biz dev, which means everything to do with marketing, pipeline, etcetera. Cool. That’s how we start thinking through your authority.
When it comes to making money, do you have the right audience?
Do you have a standardized offer?
Maybe with a retainer option? Do you have, are you are you charging the right money for the thing that you deliver and the value that it is for your audience. And then we get into leverage and that is SOPs and documentation that is tools and process and that is people. Okay. So we walk them through this, getting them nodding along with us. They can ask questions as you go, and then comes the diagnosis.
This is where you go through and you have them identify if there are different ways to do this. There’s red, yellow, green is really common.
So anybody here yeah. Has probably gone through red, yellow, green. Some people have gone through red, yellow, green with us. So you go through and you say, okay.
On skills. If I was if I was bringing you into coffee school pro. Talk to me about are you red, are you yellow, are you green on advanced skills that you can sell? Do you feel really good about that.
And they can say like, well, I actually think I’m a pretty good copywriter. That’s not the problem. Great. So we’ll call that green.
How about proof? How are you on proof? Do you have good case studies? Yeah. I’ve got great case studies.
Okay. Cool. You’re good there. How about advanced skills you can use? What’s your funnel like?
If I don’t have a funnel okay cool then we’ll call that red and we’ll mark it as such. So you go through and you do that whole process with them and then by the end all you’re going to worry about are the things that are red. So if they’re not good at identifying where the red or yellow, that’s a sign that you probably shouldn’t work with them. If they’re like, we’re bringing on all of this.
Like, this, I’m perfect at all of this, and you’re like, Cool. You don’t need my help, peace, and get the hell out of the room. But if they’re decent at, like, identifying, like, You know, I thought we were green on that, but I think we might be yellow. And I thought we were yellow on that, but I think we might be red.
Then you can start identifying how you’ll work with them. So I’m read on skills I can use and thought leadership, and I’m read on Biz dev. I also don’t have any people. My tools are okay, but I don’t have a single SOP at all.
Great. So now we’re coming up with things where we can say, okay. We’re going to work on are these things. And then from there for your client, you can start saying okay.
We can talk through what we can do across all of these, areas of greatest opportunity build out a roadmap for what a project like that would look like, etcetera. Now this is possibly going to be hard to think through for you right now because this is focused on like coffee school pro. You, however, can do this exact thing for your clients as well, and you should be doing this for your clients. So now I’m going to go back to sharing the worksheet.
I’m just gonna zoom out here.
There.
So you can do the same thing for different stuff. Right? So here on this page, I’ve got a triangle shape that you might have for list offer copy. So let’s say you are working on, you’re in conversion copywriting and you sell sales pages.
That’s your thing. That’s what you wanna do. You wanna be perfect at it. You love it.
You’re gonna be amazing at it. Cool. You know it breaks down into list offer copy. Now the tricky thing with something like this is every part of this has to be something you can work on them with.
So if someone comes to you and says, I need a new sales page. I want it to make a hundred thousand dollars. You’re like, cool. Let’s talk.
Then you draw the triangle, you write lists, offer copy on there and you talk through lead age. Okay? Talk to me about your leads. How old are they?
How many fresh leads do you have? Are you red, green, or yellow on that? And then you color that in for whatever they are. Okay.
Now what about the quality of these leads? Where are they coming from? How are you finding them? Do they have the money?
What do you know about them? And they tell you that. Deliverability. Talk to me about how your emails are going right now.
Are people able to get to your sales page your emails, or is anything even happening there? Are you trying to drive people from Facebook, which is more about lead quality, straight to your sales page and they tell you if they’re red, yellow, or green on those things. You go around and do all of this and that can help you better diagnose not just the current project, but like a a bigger scale project that they’re buying into because they’re the ones who said I’m red on that. And if you can deliver on turning them from red to green, then it can go back through and do the the redo the diagnostic tool all the time, every at the end of each part of your project and be like, okay.
How are we feeling now about our lead age if that was a red and you got them there. Now they’re like, cool. Awesome job getting us to green. That’s amazing.
And you’ve got it documented for exactly what you have done for them.
But critically anything that’s showing in your diagnostic has to be something that you can do. Is where list offer copy can be a little bit tricky if you don’t do list stuff. If you’re like, I don’t attract leads, I can’t do anything for you. Then that’s a problem because they’re gonna walk away and go, oh, okay.
We have to go get some to take care of this, and then we’ll come back and talk to you later, which they might not do. They liked your diagnosis, great. But we wanna keep them here. So you would only break down your process.
This shape that you have into things that you will actually do. And that’s where if you are like, okay, I’m targeting SAS and they do care about pirate metric still, let’s say, not everybody that’s a lot of people have problem with it, but let’s just pretend. Okay. So you break down the five parts of pirate metrics, but you know you don’t do the first you don’t, you know, you don’t do the last one either.
So you would draw a triangle only for those three that you do. Okay. So your shape is dependent on the number of parts that you have here. A triangle is really easy and a circle is really easy.
You can draw a circle. You can break it up into four parts. We’re used seeing paragraphs. We’re used to seeing these sorts of shapes and our brains align with them.
Right? Like yes, if it’s a triangle, it’s a real thing. It’s kind of like rhyme is reason.
Same thing is here. So we could do research strategy writing and experimentation. This is the conversion copy writing process and then you get to say what parts are in here. So if you’re like all I do when it comes to research is jobs and new lead surveys.
I don’t wanna do anything else, then make it your two things. And you can say How are you all for job surveys? When’s the last time you did a jobs to be done, or interviews? When’s the last time you did a a jobs interview?
Set. And they’re like, we’ve never done one. I’m like, cool. You’re right on that new lead surveys.
How are you for that? And you can go through and walk them through this. And by the end, they’re like, shit, you’ve got a process. You have some way of helping me understand what my problem is in a way that nobody else ever has and you drew it for me, which is also a really interesting thing that only a pro is going to do.
I now know that I’m red on five things. I’m green on one thing. So that’s cool. I can take that back to my team and say, oh, we don’t have to worry about this.
Y’all, here are the five things we have to worry about. And when I hire you to do this work, we can then go back and say, okay. How are we now on this? Do you think we’re still red on this?
Are we yellow yet? And so on and so forth? This make sense to everybody?
Yeah.
Alright. Any questions about it?
Probably not yet. What I want you to do is hop into making your own for the people that you want to convert. So again, this is coming down to what’s your red thread or your one thing, what do you do, and try to think about what one thing you wanna sell more than anything.
If it’s like I just want fifty thousand dollar projects that that are like focused on x. I don’t know what that thing is. Or you know what it is. In some cases, I know what it is from talking with you, but for the whole group and anybody watching the replay, I don’t know what it is.
You know what it is. Try to know. If you don’t know, try to know, you’re allowed to build your future. This is what we’re doing.
So just like document the thing that you most wanna sell. I wanna sell fifty thousand dollar engagements that last two months and do these three things with this outcome. Okay, fine. Once you know that, then you can start to say what your process is to get there.
Now, process might not be the right word if you hear a process and you go, I don’t think it’s my process, you’re probably right. There are different ways to go about this. I wanna show you the end what it could look like, how it works, and then it’s up to you to come up with what that diagnostic is, and it can mean thinking through past calls you’ve had with clients and what they’ve shared with you or what you know you’re always delivering what you’re best at. But you definitely wanna think about your one thing and the only thing that you ever wanna sell if possible.
Okay?
Are you good to give this a shot for the next twenty minutes?
Yeah.
Just try it and then we’ll come back and share challenges you had with it or whatever Alright? Twenty minutes on the clock. I’m gonna stop recording. Thanks, Sarah.
Abby, if because it went so quickly, you need to share what you made. Let’s see it.
Okay. Right. Can you see my screen?
Just about yes.
Yeah. Is it tiny? Let me zoom in.
How’s that?
Cool?
Alright. Yes. We can see it. So just to be clear, all four parts of this you can deliver on.
Yeah. Including lead quality.
Yes.
Okay. But we have all the, yeah, part. Is it someone on your team or is it you?
It’s me. So I’m thinking, like, I’m thinking about my course here, but the course is basic. It’s it’s just the DIY version of my done for you offer.
So with the lead quality, the I do Facebook teach Facebook ad testing and then also, like, using thank you paid responses to make sure that you’re, like, bringing in the right people or that the messaging is resonating with the right people. So, yeah. Okay.
Awesome. Okay. So you walk them through this, and did you try, like, try it out because you had all this extra time? Like, did you try kind of pretending that you were walking a lead or even a prospective student through this model.
Yeah. Well, I was thinking, like, is this like your IP? Or are we free to chair this?
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. The idea is that now you go forward in you use it to close people and then deliver.
Yeah. Because I’ve I’ve been, like, running into a problem recently with my course where like, I wanna shift away from, like, the, kinda make money every day messaging and more towards, like, for people who have already tried it and failed, so a more kind of advanced training.
And I think, like, having something like this actually in the webinar would help kind of widen the out so that they can identify, like, all the areas that are gonna be, like, limiting their conversion. So, yeah, so it was, oh, that’s cool. I like it.
Awesome. Yeah. It is a sales tool, and also a, a way of measuring success as you go. Like a sense of progress when most of the time the way we measure these things is like, well, did I?
Is it done or isn’t it? And did I get sales or didn’t I or whatever that like bigger goal is? It’s like, well, no, there’s components along the way. And if we can make those all green, then you’re more likely to get that end goal that you’re looking for.
So, yeah, definitely use it in sales of any kind, webinars sales calls, all of it. Cool. Any questions for any, for Abby from anybody?
No? Alright. Fun. Cool. I will talk more about how to integrate this into the process and like modifying modifying offers and things as as we go.
Anybody else wanna share or chat about what didn’t work? What you’re still working on. Keep in mind, I’ve been working on this for a long time. And, like, I still have tweaks that I’m making and like, full on changes, like mindset was its own thing for a while, then I was like, no, mindset is across all of these things. So, I put it in the middle.
Johnson?
Yeah. I was wondering, because some of the things that I were down I I don’t have a process or a system for, but I I think that areas that I could cover, later as the product is fleshed out, or full of service. What do you have any advice for is that should I try and focus on stuff that I can just do right now or do a separate one that’s what I can do right now and one that’s more sort of future based?
Can it stand well without those parts that you don’t currently do well? Like how feasible is it to cut those parts out and have it still work?
Yeah. Sure. I could probably just merge them to together and do it more generalized because I’m kinda breaking things down maybe a little too far. Yeah. I could do that.
Yeah. If you can pull it, then you’ve you’ll confidently know you can deliver everything showing there. Right? So you wanna be able to obviously have a strong position of confidence in every call that you’re taking any webinar you might be running where you do this kind of thing.
So cut out what you can’t deliver yet, and then maybe just only add it back in when you’ve got somebody in your back pocket who can do that thing for you or when you can do it. Mhmm. Yeah. Cool.
Yeah. Okay. Cool. And then just make sure that the story comes together. Again, most people who you’re going to be showing this to don’t have a better sense for what you’re talking about than you do So whatever you show them is true.
It’s it’s like it’s not necessarily going to open up a whole bunch of skepticism.
So if you leave something off knowing eventually you’re gonna add that thing on, then that’s cool. Right? Cause they’re not thinking way you got this wrong, Johnson, you forgot about this point. Like, they’re thinking like, cool, cool, cool, cool. I’m red on this. Oh, I’m red. Yeah.
So that’s actually super helpful. Yeah. And she’s just like both of these exercises, this one and last week’s one. I found useful, not just for the lows itself, but also in sort of thinking about the areas, that I might be using these things in the future, just the red thread stuff and for developing a new, idea. So, anyway, it’d be cool. Thank you, anyway.
Big it. Love it. That’s cool. Wicked it. Anybody else wanna chat? But what they did.
Can I just ask Joe? Like, do you recommend right?
Do you recommend, the whole drawing it live or having the design. Like, I mean, I love I was also doing it in Canva, like, So bringing it on, bringing it with us, ready to show them, or, doing it on the call.
It’s more engaging when you have something to watch. Right? So if it’s like if you just bring up a model, then I’m reading through it while you’re talking.
If you bring up a blank sheet and you draw it and then you write a word, I’m engaged. Like, I’m waiting for what’s next. Right? So, and that’s what we really want is not for them to jump ahead and think they got it but for you to control that whole flow and then you say and now let’s talk about what you’re red and green on and then you color in red, color it, show them that thing. It’s for me, a horrible penmanship.
Everything’s a mess. But that’s not really the point. Right? They’re watching. They’re not saying like, so why don’t you pay better attention in grade three?
They were teaching you how to like make it look good. They’re just like going with it. Right? And like all they’re interested in is what am I red on?
Oh, what am I green on? Thank god. I’m green, but they’re watching the whole way. So, yes, long story short.
I do recommend that you draw it.
And I also recommend that I didn’t wanna make this like part of today’s session, but find someone in the room here to try this out with where their your perspective client and you hop on a call and you say talk me through this and they’re just pretending. So just like do some role playing then they can do the same for you and you can like work out the kinks of actually presenting it live and new ways to draw it and think about it. Yeah.
Cool.
Cool. Fine.
Anybody else?
I can share mine.
Cool. Yeah.
So typically what I do, even if I don’t have a drawing for it, is I start by looking at the campaign, figuring out which, what keywords they’re targeting, what their campaign looks like, whether it’s on Google or LinkedIn or Facebook, etcetera. And then figuring out what they need to prioritize. So if that’s landing pages, that’s landing pages, it might be the website, the homepage, it might be, the ads, so figuring out exactly what they need to optimize.
Then going through sales calls, sometimes that means going through like g two or Kaptura reviews, and then usually tools.
Sometimes users are testing, but definitely hotjar and Google Analytics. Then figuring out what the best framework is to use.
I I think that defining the persona would also be part of this, although I’m not sure that’s something I would be part of. That’s something I wouldn’t ask them about, because of that would determine, like, is this Are they targeting mid market? Are they targeting enterprise? Are they targeting medium businesses? And within those three categories, which, level of seniority.
But I guess that would fall under research, then actually writing, then usability testing meaning, like, validating the the copy and then finally AB testing.
Cool. It looks great. The only thing I would say is, there are some things on here that are big, like underwriting, you’ve got all those assets. And so if if it’s hard for them to identify what red, yellow, or green, then that’s kind of tricky. So what can you do here even if it comes down to combining strategy and research into one like thinking upfront, right? Like thinking or planning or something like that.
I would just encourage you to break up writing more.
So that because I might look at this and go like, okay. While I suck on CRO prioritization, I’m red on that. I’m green on tools. I’m green on VOC.
I’m probably wrong about being green on VOC, but I say that. Analytics. I don’t know. I have no idea.
Like, why don’t think about it that way? Maybe. Right? So I’m yellow there.
Writing. Well, I have a bunch of those. Let’s call it green.
And that’s the problem. Like, they they might have a bunch of things and think that’s okay.
It just that’s the only thing that stood out to me. That assets little piece of the pie is containing a lot. Can do something to open it up?
Well, the idea being that if they’re, like, the the asset that they would need would depend on what they’re prioritizing. So if their landing pages are leaking leads, then it would be landing pages. If they’re not driving off traffic at the top of the funnel, then it would be ads, And if their maybe their ads are not getting clicked on, then maybe it would be even higher. It would be more like brand awareness, social organic. Kind of work. That’s why I lumped them together.
That’s cool. And then I wonder though, then if you’re really To me, I’m envisioning a sort of triangle now. That’s more like leads or attract.
Convert and, like, retain or refer or revenue or something else. And then you could get into might be strategy in the I don’t know, but to me it feels like yeah. There’s something there, and I think what you’re saying is right. It might just need a different I don’t know. A different shape. Yeah.
I could do that. Because usually the question is, well, where are we leaking weeds or why aren’t we getting enough leaves? Why is our pipeline a mess?
Yeah. Great.
And the question is like, well, how do we figure that out? Because that’s not an easy question to answer.
Not. Not. But if you would dedicate a whole side of a triangle or whatever that final shape is, I don’t know, to leads then you can talk honestly about, like, okay, leads are red, but once we get them to convert them, we’re green on version and then we’re sucky on experimentation or whatever that other part is.
Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. That makes more sense.
Okay. Cool. Love it. That’s great.
Thanks Naomi. Anybody else wanna share or talk or share anything about what they just saw?
Can I share something?
Abby were you commenting?
Or I was just saying that it looked really nice.
Like, it looked it looked very, like, Yeah. Sounds good. Good job. Awesome.
Totally. Stacy, please go ahead.
I I have one that I wanna share that I didn’t do on the call today, but I did in the past. Okay. I just wanna share it because I want somebody to appreciate it.
Nice. It’s messy. Okay. It’s a scorecard.
It’s a scorecard, but the the thing the under and and I love the idea of using in this in a sales call, although everything I do in my universe is structured to avoid me ever have get on a call with anyone.
Okay.
So I set up my three things. I I created the ABCs of superior content, which are audio brand and craft. So those are the three things. And the audience part will, you know, that would involve the voice of customer and interviews, etcetera, understanding the audience, then brand has to do with brand voice, personality, and then Craft is the actual writing of content, which would be combining journalistic writing persuasions, storytelling with subject matter expertise.
So I go through and and and ask them six questions in each of in each of these three areas. So there’s eighteen questions altogether, and then it gives the gives the results in a scorecard and then I use score app, which is a good lead gen processing sort of follow-up thing. Yeah. So I just wanted share because because I’m proud of my scorecard.
That’s cool. I love it, and the ABC is a really nice thing to remember, obviously.
And it could go really nicely in a triangle and you could clearly, like, diagnose how am I on audience, how am I on brands, I don’t remember what the third one was. Sorry. And now it’s Craft. Craft.
That’s the actual writing. Yeah. And it does display. It displays it in that targeted, you know, thing where it scores them on each of the three areas in the in the report that it generates.
Nice. That’s cool. That’s great. Yeah. Even if they, like, diagnosed themselves and then went through the score.
Anyways, it’s cool. It’s cool. Yeah. Love it.
Cool. Anybody else?
We’re good. Okay. Work this out. I do recommend that you like start making it part of your process, you’ll be surprised at how engaging it is for people when they see it drawn out.
You’re talking through and asking them questions, especially if in sales calls, you struggle to like know what to say next. This is like a really clear way to look like you’re a freaking pro and have done this a million even if it’s like your first time doing it live. Just practice with other people in the room. If you don’t have anybody to practice with yet, chances are good.
Someone else doesn’t have anybody to practice with yet too. So, feel free to just chat right now and say, hey, does anybody wanna role play this with me?
And if not, go over in Slack and do it there too, and we’ll we’ll see what happens.
Cool.
Anybody have questions? We’ve got thirty minutes ish left. If you have to go, cool, respect your time. If you have questions to ground, Katie, do you have one?
Yeah. So I’m can you just speak a bit more to, like so we’ve established where they’re red and where they’re yellow and where they’re green?
Am I aiming to then put to, like, can you, take it into the pitch? So, like, am I aiming to put together one proposal that covers, like, first, we’re gonna address the red, and then we’re gonna talk about the yellow, or how do I go into turning that into an offer?
Exactly. Yes. So I think there’s lots of ways you can do it. Right? So whatever is triggering for you, like in your imagination, roll with that but the really yeah the thing that you wanna walk away with is now it’s not just, hey, I need a sales page, but it’s also, hey, I need to get better at this, this, this, and this.
Your project now got bigger. You’re also a consultant. That’s more strategic. Right? So you walk away from there going Here are the four things we need to work on before we even work on writing your sales page.
Let me take this away, put together, some ideas for you. You send me x, y, and z document that I need. So you said you’re strong on research. Send me some so I can look at it. And then we’re gonna hop on a call, and I’ll walk you through my plan for how we can hit all of these things you read on in x period of time that you’ve told me you want this off like the thing that’s in the center of it, the five hundred paid conversions added a month or whatever.
We wanna get there in three months time. But we have to make these red things all green. We’ve agreed on that. You agree that you’re red on these things. So now we’re gonna go forward. I’ll put the other and I’m gonna come back and talk you through that plan. That’s a really, like, clear way for you to now go off and run a project.
Does that make sense? Like here’s my project now and it’s informed not just by what you said you think you need but what I have diagnosed you as really needing.
Yeah. I mean, I see this is super useful because I think I mentioned on our last the last call that I made it to live, like, I just feel like my project ideas are always really big, and I struggle to break them down into components. So this feels really helpful for that.
I guess what I’m taking away from what you’ve just said is like it would be helpful for me to have a sense of the hierarchy of the lights for for lack of better words so that I know, like, if that’s red, obviously, we’re gonna do this first and, and, like, turning that then into a proposal?
Yeah. And it’s sort of a process. So I said the word process, but I know sometimes it won’t feel like a process. So if you’re like, but it’s not a process. Okay. Don’t make it a process. But to me, it is.
To me, it’s like, okay, if it’s list offer that’s an order in which things go. Right? The conversion copywriting process has parts to it.
And so that should also lead to a sort of hierarchy, right, where you’re like, well, we can do everything we want with copy. But if your list is a mess or the people coming to it or wrong. If you’re red on that, no. So we clearly have to solve the the left part of the triangle first, whatever that’s called. I don’t geometry.
But we solve that over there. We solve list.
Then once we’re red once we’re green on those things, then we’ll talk about off for that list. Okay? And then we’ll talk about copies. You can start to see a gantt chart forming of how that project could go.
Like we’re gonna nail list I can’t come up with that live on a call. That’s not your job to come up with it live on a call. Right? You’re like, I’m I’m gonna go away and think about this for you.
You come up with the things you’re gonna do for improved list quality and quantity in x period of time.
Put that on the gantt chart here. What’s we’re gonna do in week one, week two, week three. Then week three, we’re also gonna start working on offer and and week six will be ready to work on copies. Now, you have like this project mapped out.
You’ve also got a built in way to go back and optimize things, right? So you can say we got through list offer copy, the parts of the triangle, red turn to yellow on these things and yellow turn to green, but now let’s go back and do more to further optimize it. So you have the initial project, as well as a map in effect or a retainer to optimize for performance. Does that make sense, Katie, or is that too much?
It makes sense.
I feel like I’m gonna have to revisit my, like, the categories that I’ve throat to make sure that they have a clear Okay.
Flow from one to the next. Okay. Yeah. And know I was just thinking like, well, what if they’re like, well, I don’t wanna work on that first. I wanna work on, like, I don’t I don’t wanna work on my I just wanna work on my sales page or something. I guess then it’s a question of like, do you wanna work with them?
I would say that’s the question and then. If you know list is actually red and they’re like, I don’t care, write the copy.
That’s not what I do. I can the copy will never convert if your list is garbage. Sorry. We gotta nail that and that’s where you have to be able to work on list.
In this case, right? You have to say like, no. I’m gonna nail this for you, then you’re gonna have you might not even need to work on the copy. It might just be a list look.
We’re green across the board on coffee.
So but that’s yeah. You you’re not just diagnosing what they need but are they a good fit for you to work with? They should walk away from this going. Holy shit, Katie.
No one’s ever shown it to us this way. That was great. How do we start nailing through like I had no idea that’s how this worked. That’s like the objective.
And if they don’t do that, they’re probably gonna be pretty tough to work with.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. I know it’s easy for me to say. Like, push away these people who don’t wanna do the first part of the process, but we all already know you. They’re not gonna be a good fit. Yeah.
Stacy, I know you have an AMA and then Abby.
So, my my question is about a project that I’m currently working on. I just did, message frameworks for this client often I work with enterprise companies. So I’m sort of a step removed from being able to get into benchmarking and AB testing and things like that because it’s also siloed off in big companies. In this particular instance, it’s a smaller company. They’re like a twenty million company, and my messaging framework meeting was with the whole c suite of, you know, so I had all four c level people.
So now we’re moving into actually doing a wireframe for the home page. And I’m working with that mostly with the CMO.
So they want to do an AB test against their current homepage with what I create. And so since I’m not used to sort of benchmarking before a project, I wanted to get some feedback on what I might be able to do as far as what what to ask for to establish some ben benchmarks and test against and any any tips about you know, that process because I know you do a lot having to do with the, with data, and it’s just something that I’m usually a step removed from.
Sure. So they are split testing though. Right?
They’re using Yes.
Optimizely or a tool like that.
They well, they they want AB test I haven’t talked to them about the mechanics of how they’re doing it, but I do know they want to split test, driving traffic and, you know, testing their current homepage against a new homepage that I’m writing the copy for.
Right. So understanding how the control is performing is Good. They should be telling you that, right? And then they’ll tell you the, metrics when they tell. Like, here’s here are the KPIs for this page.
It’s a homepage. So it’s likely you’ll need to document things like, amount of traffic coming to it, traffic sources, coming to it as well. If they’re using it as a landing page for Facebook ads and other things like that, It’s a problem. Right? Like, because the test at that point becomes less about a scientific test and more about like a game, where you’ve got traffic coming from weird sources that could have been brought in by any number of ads, etcetera. And they’re landing on this page. They’re so different.
That it’s almost like there are too many variables. I know it’s all in the variable of audience, but it’s so uncontrolled.
That your test is just going to feel fake. So understand where traffic is coming from. Try to get them on board with narrowing it down to their ideal audience. And I know that means organic traffic you can’t do anything about either, but people who are searching and landing on your homepage are likely not look you lose when we’re talking about business. This is SAS. This is a software company?
Or It’s, it is tech.
Yes. It’s it’s tech. So no Because it’s a CDN. It’s a it’s enterprise CDN.
Okay. Cool.
Good. So we can imagine that organic traffic that lands there. Is there by design in some way? So cool. What’s the traffic like that’s coming to it? How are they converting right now? So you need quantity of traffic than like a understanding a qualitative understanding of quality of traffic.
And then you need to know what that existing conversion rate is and what conversion rate means for them is likely going to be clicks. If it’s on the homepage, it’s probably clicks. The question is clicks to where?
We wanna drive sign ups to a a trial sign up for a free account.
Can they sign up for the free account from that page, or do they get driven to another page?
They can sign up on the homepage currently. And they, and and it’s not very focused and it can be much better than it is now.
Okay.
In other words, the homepage is not driving sign ups, and I think it could drive sign ups much more than it does.
Okay. Is there an email address field on the homepage?
That’s like start your trial?
Yes. There is.
Yes. There is. Oh, that’s an existing thing. Cool. You can optimize that. That’s great. So that would be probably number one.
It sounds like your number one goal is trial starts.
Trial starts. Yes.
Okay. So you need to document, know the the control and how it’s doing on trial start but also optimizely, we’ll know that too.
So you don’t you don’t have to write anything down if they’re using the right tool and if you’re all aligned on, what the objective is, like what, how are you going to measure it in a testing platform? You can set up multiple goals, and that’s trickiest part. You don’t want to set up too many goals. Home pages are hard though because things like bounce are gonna be an actual consideration on a homepage.
Try to keep them on task with What is the number one thing that this page is solving for? From a business perspective, why does the business invest money in this homepage. Why is this test a priority right now? And if it is, we wanna get trial starts as soon as they land there, then throw every other way of measuring the page out the door.
Don’t worry about bounce rate. We have to try scary things and some people are gonna bounce. And maybe they won’t. Maybe it’ll hold more people.
We’re not gonna worry about that. All we’re worried about is trial starts. So how does optimizely or whatever tool they use measure trial starts. What can you do in the tool?
Is it just like once they’ve clicked this button successfully or once they’ve landed on the next page is a common way to do that test. Are they landing on a confirmation page for like your trial is now started or landing an app? Which can also be tricky because there’s lots of different ways to land in at from a home page oftentimes. Point being, trial starts is what matters.
So document that Nothing else really matters if that’s your goal. There’s so many things to measure on a homepage. Try to control how much they’re thinking about. Does that help, Stacy?
Yes. Yes. That helps very much. And I will be re re listening to this recording to make sure I get all of that. Okay. Thank you.
DLDR is like trial starts is all that you’re gonna focus them on. Yeah. Cool.
Hey. Yeah. So I have kind of it’s like a mindset strategy question. I’m gonna try and articulate it as best as I can.
So I’m looking at, like, the prioritization matrix, and I’m trying to kind of, like, find my high reward low friction task and, like, the twenty percent of my efforts that generate eighty percent of, like, the revenue. And the things the thing that, like, does the most of me at is podcast, but then like, so speaking on the podcast, it’s it’s my kind of, like, high reward low friction, but then it’s, like, getting on the podcast, then it becomes kind of, like, the question of, like, likelihood of success as well, because it’s like a podcast could potentially be high reward, but then it’s like, I gonna even get on it? Like, how do I get on it? And it’s kind of like so how do you, like, balance thinking about those things, like, the how the how to get to the, like, high reward thing, like, in terms of is that did I yeah.
Yeah. I think so.
It means to me it sounds like it’s, like, of, like, leverage.
The first thing that comes to mind is, like, okay, who is trying to book you on there? Do you have a VA or assistant of some kind pitching for you.
I have a VA that, like, makes a list and that I pitch them.
Can you train the VA to pitch?
I I can. The reason I haven’t is because I posted in, like, the Slack about and, having, like, whether to have my B. I pitch, and then Christie said she wouldn’t even, like, look at, like, a podcast application if it was wasn’t sent by the person.
So that kind of Oh, no.
The video is pretending to be you.
Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. They’re just they’re signed it. They’re sending from your email address a hundred percent. And it’s just like, hey, Abby here. Just a template that they then know how to modify because you’ve taught them. You took an hour to teach them how to do this thing well for you. And steal it from your email address, and that’s it.
Mhmm.
So it’s like thinking about, like, how to automate kind of the steps to the high reward stuff or, like, outsource, minimize friction.
Do you have an SOP for it that your VA can then be trained on? And then when you do, if getting on podcasts is a huge high value win for you, but it’s it’s a slog to get there. It’s a it’s a quantity game a lot of the time. Like how much as you put out there.
Then yeah, outsource that. Send that off. That’s a great thing for your VA to do. It doesn’t take specialized skills.
Not if they have your training, yeah, to do it. So I get the VA on it, but yeah, send from your email address or something that’s a good fake of your email address.
Like AP at instead of Abby at or whatever.
Mhmm.
Cool. Yeah. That makes so much sense. You make it sound so obvious. Of course.
Thank you.
No. No worries. Awesome. Anna.
Hey. I just had a question about the ebook I’m writing right now.
Love it.
So, I think I know the answer to this, but I wanna just confirm. It is fair game to quote any studies that are publicly out there. Right?
What about, like, screenshots of that’s because it’s on pricing page. So can I can I use screenshots or pricing pages that are out there in public right now? Or do I have to, like, seek permission?
Or I think Jessica wants to answer this.
I’m watching your face, Jessica. Oh, no.
I thought you did for, like, the folks that No.
I just I just wanna make sure everybody knows I’m engaged. I don’t Oh, yes. I do know the answer.
You guys publishing for us. So I thought like, oh, you probably have a good take on this.
Yeah.
Yeah. So in my experience, it’s what are you copying or screenshotting and is it proprietary?
So there are some cases where you’re not allowed to use an image without paying a fee for it.
But you usually know those things. Right? A screenshot of someone’s website is it’s a public thing as long as you cite, and I would recommend citing everything about it that it’s copyrighted by X company. The screenshot was taken on this date.
And that’s that’s cool. Then you can do that. It can also be actually a pretty useful way to start promoting your book when the time comes. When you’re like, Hey, I used your page as a great example in my book. It’s coming out. Do you wanna copy of it?
That kind of thing. Right? And then they might say like, oh, I didn’t realize people were just using screenshots of our website. What? And you might be like, oh, fuck.
But, that’s just the conversation that you have at that point, but it doesn’t have to be weird. I no one’s ever run any quotes that, like, when Ann Handley put me in her book, I didn’t find out till someone was like, Joe, you’re in Ann’s book. And same for product led growth. Nobody told me this was gonna happen.
But I would just ended up in there. And I wasn’t like, damn you, Ann. I was like send flowers to Ann. So it’s it’s it’s I wouldn’t worry about it just do what you can to cite where it came from. And wherever possible, only take screenshots of things where you’re gonna tell a good story about it. If it’s, like, a bad thing, mock up a version of it and just remove anything.
Actually, that was gonna be my my next question. So if I just mock up and make a random, like, I could take it a pricing page and and then play around with it on Photoshop and change it up completely. Just to use the bad example.
That’s obviously fine. Right? Because no one’s gonna know where it came from or yeah.
Yeah. And then the reader also likes you a little more. Right? You’re like, look, these are some bad things I’ve seen.
I’m not gonna call anybody out. Everybody means while you, the reader, you mean well. But here’s what are what people are doing wrong. And then you can show, like, mock ups, but not the thing.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Last question.
Does it matter how long the ebook is? So I I I thought I would wrap something up in, like, thirty pages.
Okay.
But it’s it looks like it’s gonna get to, like, seventy pages.
And I’m wondering, like, are people gonna read that or Who is your target?
K. Good question.
So c level execs that will Yeah. Because the whole idea is to build authority and and show that this is a comprehensive thing.
On pricing pages. Right? So someone who gets a hold of it, the impression I want them to get is like, oh, didn’t know there was so much to talk about when it came to Verizon pages. It seems like this person knows this thing.
A hundred percent. Yes. So I just chatted over the title of a book called write useful books, go read it through your kindle, read it right away.
It’s great, but it will make you identify who your target audience is and things like referral referrals that are built into their heads. So it’s gonna be really useful.
Read right useful books as you’re doing this.
Think about that target audience and think about where they’re reading it. I think I’ve talked about this before with April.
With obviously awesome. She was gonna get it traditionally published.
Sorry if I’m repeating it, but it’s really good advice. The traditional publisher was it needs to be sixty thousand words and she’s like, no, I can’t. And the reason was for her was, but I travel on planes and I read books on planes, like that’s when a lot of sea levels in their careers hop on. That’s when they that’s when they read books.
So if that’s the case, then how long is the average flight that a sea level is going to able to read your book. Three or four hours. So you have to make it start to finish in three to four hours, which is like I think it’s something like thirty thousand words at most, knowing that they’re just skimming a lot of it and just like rolling through it.
But, yeah, thirty thousand words, I think is what came out as like the ideal length for a c level to read a book.
Thousand words. Okay. I’ll keep that in mind.
Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Thanks.
And of course, we have love screenshots in there.
It’s gonna go a lot faster. It doesn’t mean you have to take up the whole flight though. Like, if they’re able to finish the book and start writing the email to you that’s like, loved your book, let’s talk. That’s a good thing.
Right? If they can get all that work done on the plane and then walk off and go. Awesome. What’s next?
You know?
Yeah. Got it.
Awesome. Love it. Read write useful books.
Okay. Anybody else?
I do have a couple like brainstorm questions. They’re very low. Like, you probably be like really are you asking me this, but I just wanted to get brain power because we have a lot of that in the room if that’s okay.
Yeah. We do. Yeah. We got eight minutes still. Let’s go.
Okay. I’m trying to think of which one Alright. I’ll go with the second question because I have a feeling your mindset has changed around this a little bit. So I kind of Soft launched my new newsletter called the holiday win and So what I’m wondering is you used to do a lot of free stuff to grow your list, but you’ve recently made comments about not doing that in the books and that. So I’m just wondering how are we feeling about that right now? Any suggestions?
About free content? To grow your email list. Yes.
Right. I mean, our free content’s just different now. Our free content that grows our email list is on Instagram, and with like many chat and boards. Right? That’s really it.
But still, they’re still free. It’s just it’s just different.
I know the the name makes me wanna watch a Hallmark movie though to be very clear.
No. The goal was to rip it off of the old movie.
So that’s Oh, cool.
That’s awesome. Good. Yeah.
Yeah. But give a give it away in your newsletter. The good thing of are you using Substack?
No. So you mentioned something about Substack and then I had to do research on what was the latest drama and then I was like dang it. So do I grow it on there or not?
Feels a little problematic.
Yeah. No. We’ve stopped using Substack too. Yeah.
But I thought if you were okay with it, No.
I saw the research or I looked it up after you mentioned it. You’re ruined my email strategy, Joe. Alright.
We’re ruined mine too.
So the so whatever alternative comes out for sub stack, that doesn’t allow Nazis to be the Nazis on there.
Is, hopefully the next thing to use then just because you can charge for your archives. And if you have good shit you’re giving out, you should be charging for the archive.
So that’s that. But your goal is to grow your list. And if your goal is to grow your list with quality leads, then free is obviously is the is the way to go. It’ll get more people on.
It’s just a question of how quality are those are those leads. But a lot of them are quality just because they’re looking for free out of the gate doesn’t mean they’re ever going to be looking for free. Just wanna make sure you’re not full of crap. Right?
So let’s try you for free and then pay you later.
Yeah. That’s my take. Does anybody else have thoughts on this?
Do you give stuff away free to grow your list? Any tips?
No one wants to talk about it.
I no. I mean, I already have any advice it’s an interesting question, but I I don’t know. I think, I think about the content itself being, yeah, engaging and teaching something. Maybe it’s just a hint of something and you’re not giving anything away. I mean, I’m thinking of the the email the the the the people I’ve subscribed to who I read. And it’s it’s supposed to be people who are into entertaining first.
Maybe, yeah, actually first. And then secondly, teach me stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
James Claire is three two one method, work really well, and there’s another copywriter who somehow I got on this list.
He does three two one for copywriting.
Three examples to something and then one tip or something like that. And it’s a good read.
So, I don’t know, food for thought as you think of the format as well for your newsletter.
Cool. Naomi.
So I want to get more into Go ahead podcast.
And so I was building a list of, podcasts that I thought were relevant And somebody mentioned to me that you that I could probably write a script and just outsource that, have somebody put that together and send an email to all those people. But I was I thought that would be too impersonal that they get a lot of they got a lot of mail looking for guests and that it would make a lot more sense to do it. Like, actually listening to the podcast and mentioning something relevant, So I was wondering what you thought about that. Is that something?
Yeah. Did you hop off for a bit on this call already?
Yeah. I had two during my meeting for the ending.
And then you hop back up. So Abby actually asked the same question, and it was about podcast pitching, how to make it personal, And so, really quick and it’s in the replay if you want more detail, but it really is, documents like a template.
For outreach to these podcasts, and then, teach your VA or somebody that is inexpensive to send these pitch emails from your email address. So it looks like it’s from Naomi. It’s written in the first person. Hi, etcetera.
And they all do the research too. So the VA listens to the podcast or reads the reviews or whatever the whatever the thing is that teach the VA to do and then they have a goal that you give them of like five pitches a day or whatever that goal is that you need for them to to get your name out there. But yeah, it’s an SOP. This is the leverage part of the big sunshine growth model. Of have that SOP with templates associated with it, and then teach a VA to do it. And just make it look personal by personalizing and sending it from naomi at.
Okay.
Great. Awesome. Thanks. Is there another question there?
Are we good? I have one more question. Sorry. It’s another brainstorm one. Okay. So I did do the the win is a hundred million offers.
I flushed out the whole seasonal sale holiday offer thing. So Next the sales page, right? So and now this. So my only thought is I really need to get more people see like going through this process so I can finesse it and I’m getting still a lot of email and I know a lot of that is authority related but to get some quicker like and I get a few seasonal sales and no door.
Yeah. Any suggestions about more of a fast approach to that part?
Like, you’re just trying to get people to test this out on?
Essentially.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s like you said on really no dollar offers. It’s formosa kind of solution here, I would do what he has said to do in that case. Do you have a system?
If you have system, then you post on LinkedIn and say, hey, I’m looking for five companies that meet this criteria to run through my system on the next holiday for free in exchange for me being able to daw to tell the world about this and to take examples away from it. That’s a third thing to do. But just make sure you have it as like system so that you’re not guessing your way through their holiday emails for free.
Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. I’ll do that.
Okay. Fine. Alright. Well, we’re at the end of our time. Thanks, everyone, for your great questions. Nobody shared a win, but I wasn’t gonna harp on that too much. It’s pretty mean about it.
My win is being in CSV. That is a win.
Okay. Awesome. The replay will be available later. Thanks y’all, and we will be following up more on this diagnostic tool as we chat more.
Okay? Okay. Thanks, though. Have a good one. Bye.Today, as you saw in the worksheets, thanks for coming on camera. We’re gonna be talking about a diagnostic tool, and we’ll get into the details of that. As always, we’re gonna kick it off with some training And then, in today’s training though, we’ll be spending some time doing, like, work, based on the training. So expect to, you know, put aside twenty minutes at the end of this to start doing some thinking through what we’re talking about. And then we’ll do the usual AMA.
Always kick it off with a win, please, a win of any kind helps everybody stay motivated and see how many cool things there are to do out there. And then any any question you got, the more specific, the more context you can give the better.
Everybody good.
Good. Alright. We’re recording this. When you ask a question, please do come on camera wherever possible.
Please do be on camera so people can connect with you and see a smiling or whatever face you don’t have to smile no more. Whatever feels right is good. Okay. I am going to share my screen.
Alright. So this is this is cool. This is something that we’ve been working on for a little while.
For freelancing school as well as for people who are going to be joining, copy school pro. And that is a better way to diagnose what you need to work on because a lot of people are looking for road maps. Right? And that’s not just for students.
Your clients also want some form of roadmap. Like, what are you what what are we here for? Where are you gonna take me How do I know it’s the right thing to do? So this tool is a way and you’re gonna come up with your own today.
It’ll be the starting point for your own. This is a tool that helps you across every part of converting and delivering to people and also setting projects. So, You may have questions about this. I don’t think you’re gonna walk out of today’s session going.
I totally get it. I got the right one. It’s perfect. Everything’s amazing. This is gonna be the beginning of starting to think through something that you might work out over the course of the next month.
But here is the idea. So I’m on this.
Why does it say that’s page two? Everything says page two. It’s not. It’s actually four. Sorry.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter. But it’s the general diagnostic template. This page in your worksheet your workbook.
This is the idea here. Hopefully, you’re not on a very small screen.
The, again, the idea here is to figure out what the general three or four parts of what you deliver that is a solution to your client or student as you start to scale to teaching more to their problem what that what that is so you can then go in and say, here’s what you’re missing, here’s what you don’t have to work on, but here’s what do have to work on here is how we can work together. So, for example, I’m gonna show you first of all, like the end. What we’re working toward. Now this is our model. It’s currently called the Sunshine growth model because it looks a little bit like a this is multiple iterations on it that I’ve been playing with, but let me zoom in here and then we can talk specifically about what the hell it even is. Okay.
So someone comes to me and this is based on just years and years of coaching freelance copywriters and particular but also marketing consultants, etcetera.
Someone comes to me and they’re like, Joe, I’m, you know, I’ve plateaued. I would love to get to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars is the most common thing that people say. I’m at about a hundred. I wanna get to two fifty. What’s stopping me?
And so really what I’m hearing is like you’d like to get to about a grand a day of consistent income. And so that could be twenty days of the work month that works out to about two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year or all the days, and that works out to about three hundred sixty thousand dollars a year. So that’s the problem that most people come to me trying to solve until they get to that and they’re like, okay. Now I wanna get to three million.
I got to three sixty. Now I wanna get to three point six. Let’s do that. And that would still come down to a lot of what we’re seeing here.
So this is how it breaks down and then I’m gonna show you how it draws out when we’re talking with people who are considering coming in to copy school professional, and then we’ll talk about what that means for you and for your new clients, leads when you’re having those lead conversations as well as how you deliver on something with clients So this is one way to do it, especially if you have felt scattered. If you felt like there, people come to you for all the things and you know know what to say no to. You never feel really good saying no.
People come to you and they’re all for the same general thing, but they have different problems within that same general thing. And your job is always like a little too custom. You don’t want it to always be custom because then it’s hard to offload things to people. You don’t have the leverage of like, here is how we do this work.
Go do it for me so I can mark up what you do, and get paid for not doing anything other than basically teaching you for you to deliver for me and then I then bill. Let me explain. Okay. So someone comes to me and says, Joe, basically, I wanna make a thousand dollars a day help Cool.
There are four actually five but four key parts that usually their work comes down to. So we can say okay. I can draw this out sharing my iPad as shown in the worksheet and I can say, okay, let’s talk through these four things, your skills, your authority, your money, and that means all things money. Money, not as leverage, but money as pricing.
Are you targeting the right audience? Do you have everything that you need? In order to make that money that you want to. Does your current audience only want to spend a thousand dollars on a single VIP day and then they’ll hit you up every six months for one.
You can’t build a business that way. Right? So and then we talked about leverage. And then what’s keeping you from all of those things too is also mindset mindset or copywriters.
Like for nobody else mindset is like such a challenge. It’s very hard. If you don’t have mindset issues and a lot of people here are working really well through any that you might have and maybe getting to a point where you don’t have mindset issues. Congratulations because that’s again and again. And I’ve said this before in Copyschool Pro. It’s such a big deal.
Getting your head right about your skills, about your authority, about a about your sense of scarcity and money out there. Who would pay me for this? And then leverage getting your head right about people, what it means to hire someone, what it means to document a creative process.
Okay. So we can draw this out. And that’s exactly what we want to do. And I’m going to switch over to, my iPad right away here and show you what we do and what you should be doing when you are going through a diagnosis of how to solve a problem with your clients or leads. Sorry.
Boop. Okay. Really simply what we do and what I’m suggesting that you do and my iPad’s been flipping around a lot today. So hopefully it doesn’t mess it up.
But we draw a circle. It’s allowed to be ugly. It doesn’t have to be perfect. And in the middle, we put our one thousand.
And we’re drawing this and sharing it with them and like talking them through it. Right? And then we have these parts that come out of there and we write in skills and sorry just going through this authority.
Money and leverage, then talk them through that. And this is what you’ll be doing with your own process Right?
So, like, okay. Here’s the problem we wanna solve. Here in the middle, it’s a thousand dollars a day. That’s what we’re aiming toward.
Here are the things that are keeping you pretty much. Think about this for your client. Your clients come to you and they say we want five hundred more paid conversions a month. So you put that in the middle.
Here. Five hundred more paid conversions a month. So you put like five hundred or you turn that into the dollar figure, like each conversion is worth ten dollars. So that’s five thousand.
Okay. Fine. So you put that in the middle and then you talk through the parts that are your process that are like critical to delivering five thousand dollars or those five hundred paid conversions a month. So they’re seeing, okay, you’re walking them through.
There’s skills. There’s authority. There’s money. There’s leverage. In in our case, probably not in yours.
Yours might be research and discovery.
And like the conversion copy writing process or something like that, right? Even if it’s for SAS brands, you might be like, okay, we have, you know, the five parts It’s more of a Pentagon shape and it’s got all five parts of pirate metrics. Let’s say. But let’s let’s focus on this. So here’s what I do.
Get the person who you’re talking to to also write this out. So say, hey, pick up a piece of paper. I want you to draw this with me. So you draw a circle just like this. Yours will be better than mine. I’m not an artist, etcetera.
Write these words from there. You write skills, you write authority, you write money, you write leverage. Great. Cool. Now all I want you to do is write this out and then we’re going to see how you’re doing on all of these points. So we have advanced skills you can sell. We have case studies and proof and we have advanced skills you can use.
So that’s like in this case it might be something more like advanced skills you can sell are am I really, really good at writing long form sales pages. Do I have case studies and proof for long form sales pages? And do I have advanced skills that I can use in my business like setting up a funnel for new leads so that I can sell them long form sales pages? Okay.
So write those down. Don’t do anything with them yet. And then you move on to the next one. Alright.
Next up is authority.
You’ve got your specialization or your niche, and you’ve got thought leadership.
My penmanship is shit. Don’t worry. And then you’ve got things like biz dev, which means everything to do with marketing, pipeline, etcetera. Cool. That’s how we start thinking through your authority.
When it comes to making money, do you have the right audience?
Do you have a standardized offer?
Maybe with a retainer option? Do you have, are you are you charging the right money for the thing that you deliver and the value that it is for your audience. And then we get into leverage and that is SOPs and documentation that is tools and process and that is people. Okay. So we walk them through this, getting them nodding along with us. They can ask questions as you go, and then comes the diagnosis.
This is where you go through and you have them identify if there are different ways to do this. There’s red, yellow, green is really common.
So anybody here yeah. Has probably gone through red, yellow, green. Some people have gone through red, yellow, green with us. So you go through and you say, okay.
On skills. If I was if I was bringing you into coffee school pro. Talk to me about are you red, are you yellow, are you green on advanced skills that you can sell? Do you feel really good about that.
And they can say like, well, I actually think I’m a pretty good copywriter. That’s not the problem. Great. So we’ll call that green.
How about proof? How are you on proof? Do you have good case studies? Yeah. I’ve got great case studies.
Okay. Cool. You’re good there. How about advanced skills you can use? What’s your funnel like?
If I don’t have a funnel okay cool then we’ll call that red and we’ll mark it as such. So you go through and you do that whole process with them and then by the end all you’re going to worry about are the things that are red. So if they’re not good at identifying where the red or yellow, that’s a sign that you probably shouldn’t work with them. If they’re like, we’re bringing on all of this.
Like, this, I’m perfect at all of this, and you’re like, Cool. You don’t need my help, peace, and get the hell out of the room. But if they’re decent at, like, identifying, like, You know, I thought we were green on that, but I think we might be yellow. And I thought we were yellow on that, but I think we might be red.
Then you can start identifying how you’ll work with them. So I’m read on skills I can use and thought leadership, and I’m read on Biz dev. I also don’t have any people. My tools are okay, but I don’t have a single SOP at all.
Great. So now we’re coming up with things where we can say, okay. We’re going to work on are these things. And then from there for your client, you can start saying okay.
We can talk through what we can do across all of these, areas of greatest opportunity build out a roadmap for what a project like that would look like, etcetera. Now this is possibly going to be hard to think through for you right now because this is focused on like coffee school pro. You, however, can do this exact thing for your clients as well, and you should be doing this for your clients. So now I’m going to go back to sharing the worksheet.
I’m just gonna zoom out here.
There.
So you can do the same thing for different stuff. Right? So here on this page, I’ve got a triangle shape that you might have for list offer copy. So let’s say you are working on, you’re in conversion copywriting and you sell sales pages.
That’s your thing. That’s what you wanna do. You wanna be perfect at it. You love it.
You’re gonna be amazing at it. Cool. You know it breaks down into list offer copy. Now the tricky thing with something like this is every part of this has to be something you can work on them with.
So if someone comes to you and says, I need a new sales page. I want it to make a hundred thousand dollars. You’re like, cool. Let’s talk.
Then you draw the triangle, you write lists, offer copy on there and you talk through lead age. Okay? Talk to me about your leads. How old are they?
How many fresh leads do you have? Are you red, green, or yellow on that? And then you color that in for whatever they are. Okay.
Now what about the quality of these leads? Where are they coming from? How are you finding them? Do they have the money?
What do you know about them? And they tell you that. Deliverability. Talk to me about how your emails are going right now.
Are people able to get to your sales page your emails, or is anything even happening there? Are you trying to drive people from Facebook, which is more about lead quality, straight to your sales page and they tell you if they’re red, yellow, or green on those things. You go around and do all of this and that can help you better diagnose not just the current project, but like a a bigger scale project that they’re buying into because they’re the ones who said I’m red on that. And if you can deliver on turning them from red to green, then it can go back through and do the the redo the diagnostic tool all the time, every at the end of each part of your project and be like, okay.
How are we feeling now about our lead age if that was a red and you got them there. Now they’re like, cool. Awesome job getting us to green. That’s amazing.
And you’ve got it documented for exactly what you have done for them.
But critically anything that’s showing in your diagnostic has to be something that you can do. Is where list offer copy can be a little bit tricky if you don’t do list stuff. If you’re like, I don’t attract leads, I can’t do anything for you. Then that’s a problem because they’re gonna walk away and go, oh, okay.
We have to go get some to take care of this, and then we’ll come back and talk to you later, which they might not do. They liked your diagnosis, great. But we wanna keep them here. So you would only break down your process.
This shape that you have into things that you will actually do. And that’s where if you are like, okay, I’m targeting SAS and they do care about pirate metric still, let’s say, not everybody that’s a lot of people have problem with it, but let’s just pretend. Okay. So you break down the five parts of pirate metrics, but you know you don’t do the first you don’t, you know, you don’t do the last one either.
So you would draw a triangle only for those three that you do. Okay. So your shape is dependent on the number of parts that you have here. A triangle is really easy and a circle is really easy.
You can draw a circle. You can break it up into four parts. We’re used seeing paragraphs. We’re used to seeing these sorts of shapes and our brains align with them.
Right? Like yes, if it’s a triangle, it’s a real thing. It’s kind of like rhyme is reason.
Same thing is here. So we could do research strategy writing and experimentation. This is the conversion copy writing process and then you get to say what parts are in here. So if you’re like all I do when it comes to research is jobs and new lead surveys.
I don’t wanna do anything else, then make it your two things. And you can say How are you all for job surveys? When’s the last time you did a jobs to be done, or interviews? When’s the last time you did a a jobs interview?
Set. And they’re like, we’ve never done one. I’m like, cool. You’re right on that new lead surveys.
How are you for that? And you can go through and walk them through this. And by the end, they’re like, shit, you’ve got a process. You have some way of helping me understand what my problem is in a way that nobody else ever has and you drew it for me, which is also a really interesting thing that only a pro is going to do.
I now know that I’m red on five things. I’m green on one thing. So that’s cool. I can take that back to my team and say, oh, we don’t have to worry about this.
Y’all, here are the five things we have to worry about. And when I hire you to do this work, we can then go back and say, okay. How are we now on this? Do you think we’re still red on this?
Are we yellow yet? And so on and so forth? This make sense to everybody?
Yeah.
Alright. Any questions about it?
Probably not yet. What I want you to do is hop into making your own for the people that you want to convert. So again, this is coming down to what’s your red thread or your one thing, what do you do, and try to think about what one thing you wanna sell more than anything.
If it’s like I just want fifty thousand dollar projects that that are like focused on x. I don’t know what that thing is. Or you know what it is. In some cases, I know what it is from talking with you, but for the whole group and anybody watching the replay, I don’t know what it is.
You know what it is. Try to know. If you don’t know, try to know, you’re allowed to build your future. This is what we’re doing.
So just like document the thing that you most wanna sell. I wanna sell fifty thousand dollar engagements that last two months and do these three things with this outcome. Okay, fine. Once you know that, then you can start to say what your process is to get there.
Now, process might not be the right word if you hear a process and you go, I don’t think it’s my process, you’re probably right. There are different ways to go about this. I wanna show you the end what it could look like, how it works, and then it’s up to you to come up with what that diagnostic is, and it can mean thinking through past calls you’ve had with clients and what they’ve shared with you or what you know you’re always delivering what you’re best at. But you definitely wanna think about your one thing and the only thing that you ever wanna sell if possible.
Okay?
Are you good to give this a shot for the next twenty minutes?
Yeah.
Just try it and then we’ll come back and share challenges you had with it or whatever Alright? Twenty minutes on the clock. I’m gonna stop recording. Thanks, Sarah.
Abby, if because it went so quickly, you need to share what you made. Let’s see it.
Okay. Right. Can you see my screen?
Just about yes.
Yeah. Is it tiny? Let me zoom in.
How’s that?
Cool?
Alright. Yes. We can see it. So just to be clear, all four parts of this you can deliver on.
Yeah. Including lead quality.
Yes.
Okay. But we have all the, yeah, part. Is it someone on your team or is it you?
It’s me. So I’m thinking, like, I’m thinking about my course here, but the course is basic. It’s it’s just the DIY version of my done for you offer.
So with the lead quality, the I do Facebook teach Facebook ad testing and then also, like, using thank you paid responses to make sure that you’re, like, bringing in the right people or that the messaging is resonating with the right people. So, yeah. Okay.
Awesome. Okay. So you walk them through this, and did you try, like, try it out because you had all this extra time? Like, did you try kind of pretending that you were walking a lead or even a prospective student through this model.
Yeah. Well, I was thinking, like, is this like your IP? Or are we free to chair this?
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. The idea is that now you go forward in you use it to close people and then deliver.
Yeah. Because I’ve I’ve been, like, running into a problem recently with my course where like, I wanna shift away from, like, the, kinda make money every day messaging and more towards, like, for people who have already tried it and failed, so a more kind of advanced training.
And I think, like, having something like this actually in the webinar would help kind of widen the out so that they can identify, like, all the areas that are gonna be, like, limiting their conversion. So, yeah, so it was, oh, that’s cool. I like it.
Awesome. Yeah. It is a sales tool, and also a, a way of measuring success as you go. Like a sense of progress when most of the time the way we measure these things is like, well, did I?
Is it done or isn’t it? And did I get sales or didn’t I or whatever that like bigger goal is? It’s like, well, no, there’s components along the way. And if we can make those all green, then you’re more likely to get that end goal that you’re looking for.
So, yeah, definitely use it in sales of any kind, webinars sales calls, all of it. Cool. Any questions for any, for Abby from anybody?
No? Alright. Fun. Cool. I will talk more about how to integrate this into the process and like modifying modifying offers and things as as we go.
Anybody else wanna share or chat about what didn’t work? What you’re still working on. Keep in mind, I’ve been working on this for a long time. And, like, I still have tweaks that I’m making and like, full on changes, like mindset was its own thing for a while, then I was like, no, mindset is across all of these things. So, I put it in the middle.
Johnson?
Yeah. I was wondering, because some of the things that I were down I I don’t have a process or a system for, but I I think that areas that I could cover, later as the product is fleshed out, or full of service. What do you have any advice for is that should I try and focus on stuff that I can just do right now or do a separate one that’s what I can do right now and one that’s more sort of future based?
Can it stand well without those parts that you don’t currently do well? Like how feasible is it to cut those parts out and have it still work?
Yeah. Sure. I could probably just merge them to together and do it more generalized because I’m kinda breaking things down maybe a little too far. Yeah. I could do that.
Yeah. If you can pull it, then you’ve you’ll confidently know you can deliver everything showing there. Right? So you wanna be able to obviously have a strong position of confidence in every call that you’re taking any webinar you might be running where you do this kind of thing.
So cut out what you can’t deliver yet, and then maybe just only add it back in when you’ve got somebody in your back pocket who can do that thing for you or when you can do it. Mhmm. Yeah. Cool.
Yeah. Okay. Cool. And then just make sure that the story comes together. Again, most people who you’re going to be showing this to don’t have a better sense for what you’re talking about than you do So whatever you show them is true.
It’s it’s like it’s not necessarily going to open up a whole bunch of skepticism.
So if you leave something off knowing eventually you’re gonna add that thing on, then that’s cool. Right? Cause they’re not thinking way you got this wrong, Johnson, you forgot about this point. Like, they’re thinking like, cool, cool, cool, cool. I’m red on this. Oh, I’m red. Yeah.
So that’s actually super helpful. Yeah. And she’s just like both of these exercises, this one and last week’s one. I found useful, not just for the lows itself, but also in sort of thinking about the areas, that I might be using these things in the future, just the red thread stuff and for developing a new, idea. So, anyway, it’d be cool. Thank you, anyway.
Big it. Love it. That’s cool. Wicked it. Anybody else wanna chat? But what they did.
Can I just ask Joe? Like, do you recommend right?
Do you recommend, the whole drawing it live or having the design. Like, I mean, I love I was also doing it in Canva, like, So bringing it on, bringing it with us, ready to show them, or, doing it on the call.
It’s more engaging when you have something to watch. Right? So if it’s like if you just bring up a model, then I’m reading through it while you’re talking.
If you bring up a blank sheet and you draw it and then you write a word, I’m engaged. Like, I’m waiting for what’s next. Right? So, and that’s what we really want is not for them to jump ahead and think they got it but for you to control that whole flow and then you say and now let’s talk about what you’re red and green on and then you color in red, color it, show them that thing. It’s for me, a horrible penmanship.
Everything’s a mess. But that’s not really the point. Right? They’re watching. They’re not saying like, so why don’t you pay better attention in grade three?
They were teaching you how to like make it look good. They’re just like going with it. Right? And like all they’re interested in is what am I red on?
Oh, what am I green on? Thank god. I’m green, but they’re watching the whole way. So, yes, long story short.
I do recommend that you draw it.
And I also recommend that I didn’t wanna make this like part of today’s session, but find someone in the room here to try this out with where their your perspective client and you hop on a call and you say talk me through this and they’re just pretending. So just like do some role playing then they can do the same for you and you can like work out the kinks of actually presenting it live and new ways to draw it and think about it. Yeah.
Cool.
Cool. Fine.
Anybody else?
I can share mine.
Cool. Yeah.
So typically what I do, even if I don’t have a drawing for it, is I start by looking at the campaign, figuring out which, what keywords they’re targeting, what their campaign looks like, whether it’s on Google or LinkedIn or Facebook, etcetera. And then figuring out what they need to prioritize. So if that’s landing pages, that’s landing pages, it might be the website, the homepage, it might be, the ads, so figuring out exactly what they need to optimize.
Then going through sales calls, sometimes that means going through like g two or Kaptura reviews, and then usually tools.
Sometimes users are testing, but definitely hotjar and Google Analytics. Then figuring out what the best framework is to use.
I I think that defining the persona would also be part of this, although I’m not sure that’s something I would be part of. That’s something I wouldn’t ask them about, because of that would determine, like, is this Are they targeting mid market? Are they targeting enterprise? Are they targeting medium businesses? And within those three categories, which, level of seniority.
But I guess that would fall under research, then actually writing, then usability testing meaning, like, validating the the copy and then finally AB testing.
Cool. It looks great. The only thing I would say is, there are some things on here that are big, like underwriting, you’ve got all those assets. And so if if it’s hard for them to identify what red, yellow, or green, then that’s kind of tricky. So what can you do here even if it comes down to combining strategy and research into one like thinking upfront, right? Like thinking or planning or something like that.
I would just encourage you to break up writing more.
So that because I might look at this and go like, okay. While I suck on CRO prioritization, I’m red on that. I’m green on tools. I’m green on VOC.
I’m probably wrong about being green on VOC, but I say that. Analytics. I don’t know. I have no idea.
Like, why don’t think about it that way? Maybe. Right? So I’m yellow there.
Writing. Well, I have a bunch of those. Let’s call it green.
And that’s the problem. Like, they they might have a bunch of things and think that’s okay.
It just that’s the only thing that stood out to me. That assets little piece of the pie is containing a lot. Can do something to open it up?
Well, the idea being that if they’re, like, the the asset that they would need would depend on what they’re prioritizing. So if their landing pages are leaking leads, then it would be landing pages. If they’re not driving off traffic at the top of the funnel, then it would be ads, And if their maybe their ads are not getting clicked on, then maybe it would be even higher. It would be more like brand awareness, social organic. Kind of work. That’s why I lumped them together.
That’s cool. And then I wonder though, then if you’re really To me, I’m envisioning a sort of triangle now. That’s more like leads or attract.
Convert and, like, retain or refer or revenue or something else. And then you could get into might be strategy in the I don’t know, but to me it feels like yeah. There’s something there, and I think what you’re saying is right. It might just need a different I don’t know. A different shape. Yeah.
I could do that. Because usually the question is, well, where are we leaking weeds or why aren’t we getting enough leaves? Why is our pipeline a mess?
Yeah. Great.
And the question is like, well, how do we figure that out? Because that’s not an easy question to answer.
Not. Not. But if you would dedicate a whole side of a triangle or whatever that final shape is, I don’t know, to leads then you can talk honestly about, like, okay, leads are red, but once we get them to convert them, we’re green on version and then we’re sucky on experimentation or whatever that other part is.
Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. That makes more sense.
Okay. Cool. Love it. That’s great.
Thanks Naomi. Anybody else wanna share or talk or share anything about what they just saw?
Can I share something?
Abby were you commenting?
Or I was just saying that it looked really nice.
Like, it looked it looked very, like, Yeah. Sounds good. Good job. Awesome.
Totally. Stacy, please go ahead.
I I have one that I wanna share that I didn’t do on the call today, but I did in the past. Okay. I just wanna share it because I want somebody to appreciate it.
Nice. It’s messy. Okay. It’s a scorecard.
It’s a scorecard, but the the thing the under and and I love the idea of using in this in a sales call, although everything I do in my universe is structured to avoid me ever have get on a call with anyone.
Okay.
So I set up my three things. I I created the ABCs of superior content, which are audio brand and craft. So those are the three things. And the audience part will, you know, that would involve the voice of customer and interviews, etcetera, understanding the audience, then brand has to do with brand voice, personality, and then Craft is the actual writing of content, which would be combining journalistic writing persuasions, storytelling with subject matter expertise.
So I go through and and and ask them six questions in each of in each of these three areas. So there’s eighteen questions altogether, and then it gives the gives the results in a scorecard and then I use score app, which is a good lead gen processing sort of follow-up thing. Yeah. So I just wanted share because because I’m proud of my scorecard.
That’s cool. I love it, and the ABC is a really nice thing to remember, obviously.
And it could go really nicely in a triangle and you could clearly, like, diagnose how am I on audience, how am I on brands, I don’t remember what the third one was. Sorry. And now it’s Craft. Craft.
That’s the actual writing. Yeah. And it does display. It displays it in that targeted, you know, thing where it scores them on each of the three areas in the in the report that it generates.
Nice. That’s cool. That’s great. Yeah. Even if they, like, diagnosed themselves and then went through the score.
Anyways, it’s cool. It’s cool. Yeah. Love it.
Cool. Anybody else?
We’re good. Okay. Work this out. I do recommend that you like start making it part of your process, you’ll be surprised at how engaging it is for people when they see it drawn out.
You’re talking through and asking them questions, especially if in sales calls, you struggle to like know what to say next. This is like a really clear way to look like you’re a freaking pro and have done this a million even if it’s like your first time doing it live. Just practice with other people in the room. If you don’t have anybody to practice with yet, chances are good.
Someone else doesn’t have anybody to practice with yet too. So, feel free to just chat right now and say, hey, does anybody wanna role play this with me?
And if not, go over in Slack and do it there too, and we’ll we’ll see what happens.
Cool.
Anybody have questions? We’ve got thirty minutes ish left. If you have to go, cool, respect your time. If you have questions to ground, Katie, do you have one?
Yeah. So I’m can you just speak a bit more to, like so we’ve established where they’re red and where they’re yellow and where they’re green?
Am I aiming to then put to, like, can you, take it into the pitch? So, like, am I aiming to put together one proposal that covers, like, first, we’re gonna address the red, and then we’re gonna talk about the yellow, or how do I go into turning that into an offer?
Exactly. Yes. So I think there’s lots of ways you can do it. Right? So whatever is triggering for you, like in your imagination, roll with that but the really yeah the thing that you wanna walk away with is now it’s not just, hey, I need a sales page, but it’s also, hey, I need to get better at this, this, this, and this.
Your project now got bigger. You’re also a consultant. That’s more strategic. Right? So you walk away from there going Here are the four things we need to work on before we even work on writing your sales page.
Let me take this away, put together, some ideas for you. You send me x, y, and z document that I need. So you said you’re strong on research. Send me some so I can look at it. And then we’re gonna hop on a call, and I’ll walk you through my plan for how we can hit all of these things you read on in x period of time that you’ve told me you want this off like the thing that’s in the center of it, the five hundred paid conversions added a month or whatever.
We wanna get there in three months time. But we have to make these red things all green. We’ve agreed on that. You agree that you’re red on these things. So now we’re gonna go forward. I’ll put the other and I’m gonna come back and talk you through that plan. That’s a really, like, clear way for you to now go off and run a project.
Does that make sense? Like here’s my project now and it’s informed not just by what you said you think you need but what I have diagnosed you as really needing.
Yeah. I mean, I see this is super useful because I think I mentioned on our last the last call that I made it to live, like, I just feel like my project ideas are always really big, and I struggle to break them down into components. So this feels really helpful for that.
I guess what I’m taking away from what you’ve just said is like it would be helpful for me to have a sense of the hierarchy of the lights for for lack of better words so that I know, like, if that’s red, obviously, we’re gonna do this first and, and, like, turning that then into a proposal?
Yeah. And it’s sort of a process. So I said the word process, but I know sometimes it won’t feel like a process. So if you’re like, but it’s not a process. Okay. Don’t make it a process. But to me, it is.
To me, it’s like, okay, if it’s list offer that’s an order in which things go. Right? The conversion copywriting process has parts to it.
And so that should also lead to a sort of hierarchy, right, where you’re like, well, we can do everything we want with copy. But if your list is a mess or the people coming to it or wrong. If you’re red on that, no. So we clearly have to solve the the left part of the triangle first, whatever that’s called. I don’t geometry.
But we solve that over there. We solve list.
Then once we’re red once we’re green on those things, then we’ll talk about off for that list. Okay? And then we’ll talk about copies. You can start to see a gantt chart forming of how that project could go.
Like we’re gonna nail list I can’t come up with that live on a call. That’s not your job to come up with it live on a call. Right? You’re like, I’m I’m gonna go away and think about this for you.
You come up with the things you’re gonna do for improved list quality and quantity in x period of time.
Put that on the gantt chart here. What’s we’re gonna do in week one, week two, week three. Then week three, we’re also gonna start working on offer and and week six will be ready to work on copies. Now, you have like this project mapped out.
You’ve also got a built in way to go back and optimize things, right? So you can say we got through list offer copy, the parts of the triangle, red turn to yellow on these things and yellow turn to green, but now let’s go back and do more to further optimize it. So you have the initial project, as well as a map in effect or a retainer to optimize for performance. Does that make sense, Katie, or is that too much?
It makes sense.
I feel like I’m gonna have to revisit my, like, the categories that I’ve throat to make sure that they have a clear Okay.
Flow from one to the next. Okay. Yeah. And know I was just thinking like, well, what if they’re like, well, I don’t wanna work on that first. I wanna work on, like, I don’t I don’t wanna work on my I just wanna work on my sales page or something. I guess then it’s a question of like, do you wanna work with them?
I would say that’s the question and then. If you know list is actually red and they’re like, I don’t care, write the copy.
That’s not what I do. I can the copy will never convert if your list is garbage. Sorry. We gotta nail that and that’s where you have to be able to work on list.
In this case, right? You have to say like, no. I’m gonna nail this for you, then you’re gonna have you might not even need to work on the copy. It might just be a list look.
We’re green across the board on coffee.
So but that’s yeah. You you’re not just diagnosing what they need but are they a good fit for you to work with? They should walk away from this going. Holy shit, Katie.
No one’s ever shown it to us this way. That was great. How do we start nailing through like I had no idea that’s how this worked. That’s like the objective.
And if they don’t do that, they’re probably gonna be pretty tough to work with.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. I know it’s easy for me to say. Like, push away these people who don’t wanna do the first part of the process, but we all already know you. They’re not gonna be a good fit. Yeah.
Stacy, I know you have an AMA and then Abby.
So, my my question is about a project that I’m currently working on. I just did, message frameworks for this client often I work with enterprise companies. So I’m sort of a step removed from being able to get into benchmarking and AB testing and things like that because it’s also siloed off in big companies. In this particular instance, it’s a smaller company. They’re like a twenty million company, and my messaging framework meeting was with the whole c suite of, you know, so I had all four c level people.
So now we’re moving into actually doing a wireframe for the home page. And I’m working with that mostly with the CMO.
So they want to do an AB test against their current homepage with what I create. And so since I’m not used to sort of benchmarking before a project, I wanted to get some feedback on what I might be able to do as far as what what to ask for to establish some ben benchmarks and test against and any any tips about you know, that process because I know you do a lot having to do with the, with data, and it’s just something that I’m usually a step removed from.
Sure. So they are split testing though. Right?
They’re using Yes.
Optimizely or a tool like that.
They well, they they want AB test I haven’t talked to them about the mechanics of how they’re doing it, but I do know they want to split test, driving traffic and, you know, testing their current homepage against a new homepage that I’m writing the copy for.
Right. So understanding how the control is performing is Good. They should be telling you that, right? And then they’ll tell you the, metrics when they tell. Like, here’s here are the KPIs for this page.
It’s a homepage. So it’s likely you’ll need to document things like, amount of traffic coming to it, traffic sources, coming to it as well. If they’re using it as a landing page for Facebook ads and other things like that, It’s a problem. Right? Like, because the test at that point becomes less about a scientific test and more about like a game, where you’ve got traffic coming from weird sources that could have been brought in by any number of ads, etcetera. And they’re landing on this page. They’re so different.
That it’s almost like there are too many variables. I know it’s all in the variable of audience, but it’s so uncontrolled.
That your test is just going to feel fake. So understand where traffic is coming from. Try to get them on board with narrowing it down to their ideal audience. And I know that means organic traffic you can’t do anything about either, but people who are searching and landing on your homepage are likely not look you lose when we’re talking about business. This is SAS. This is a software company?
Or It’s, it is tech.
Yes. It’s it’s tech. So no Because it’s a CDN. It’s a it’s enterprise CDN.
Okay. Cool.
Good. So we can imagine that organic traffic that lands there. Is there by design in some way? So cool. What’s the traffic like that’s coming to it? How are they converting right now? So you need quantity of traffic than like a understanding a qualitative understanding of quality of traffic.
And then you need to know what that existing conversion rate is and what conversion rate means for them is likely going to be clicks. If it’s on the homepage, it’s probably clicks. The question is clicks to where?
We wanna drive sign ups to a a trial sign up for a free account.
Can they sign up for the free account from that page, or do they get driven to another page?
They can sign up on the homepage currently. And they, and and it’s not very focused and it can be much better than it is now.
Okay.
In other words, the homepage is not driving sign ups, and I think it could drive sign ups much more than it does.
Okay. Is there an email address field on the homepage?
That’s like start your trial?
Yes. There is.
Yes. There is. Oh, that’s an existing thing. Cool. You can optimize that. That’s great. So that would be probably number one.
It sounds like your number one goal is trial starts.
Trial starts. Yes.
Okay. So you need to document, know the the control and how it’s doing on trial start but also optimizely, we’ll know that too.
So you don’t you don’t have to write anything down if they’re using the right tool and if you’re all aligned on, what the objective is, like what, how are you going to measure it in a testing platform? You can set up multiple goals, and that’s trickiest part. You don’t want to set up too many goals. Home pages are hard though because things like bounce are gonna be an actual consideration on a homepage.
Try to keep them on task with What is the number one thing that this page is solving for? From a business perspective, why does the business invest money in this homepage. Why is this test a priority right now? And if it is, we wanna get trial starts as soon as they land there, then throw every other way of measuring the page out the door.
Don’t worry about bounce rate. We have to try scary things and some people are gonna bounce. And maybe they won’t. Maybe it’ll hold more people.
We’re not gonna worry about that. All we’re worried about is trial starts. So how does optimizely or whatever tool they use measure trial starts. What can you do in the tool?
Is it just like once they’ve clicked this button successfully or once they’ve landed on the next page is a common way to do that test. Are they landing on a confirmation page for like your trial is now started or landing an app? Which can also be tricky because there’s lots of different ways to land in at from a home page oftentimes. Point being, trial starts is what matters.
So document that Nothing else really matters if that’s your goal. There’s so many things to measure on a homepage. Try to control how much they’re thinking about. Does that help, Stacy?
Yes. Yes. That helps very much. And I will be re re listening to this recording to make sure I get all of that. Okay. Thank you.
DLDR is like trial starts is all that you’re gonna focus them on. Yeah. Cool.
Hey. Yeah. So I have kind of it’s like a mindset strategy question. I’m gonna try and articulate it as best as I can.
So I’m looking at, like, the prioritization matrix, and I’m trying to kind of, like, find my high reward low friction task and, like, the twenty percent of my efforts that generate eighty percent of, like, the revenue. And the things the thing that, like, does the most of me at is podcast, but then like, so speaking on the podcast, it’s it’s my kind of, like, high reward low friction, but then it’s, like, getting on the podcast, then it becomes kind of, like, the question of, like, likelihood of success as well, because it’s like a podcast could potentially be high reward, but then it’s like, I gonna even get on it? Like, how do I get on it? And it’s kind of like so how do you, like, balance thinking about those things, like, the how the how to get to the, like, high reward thing, like, in terms of is that did I yeah.
Yeah. I think so.
It means to me it sounds like it’s, like, of, like, leverage.
The first thing that comes to mind is, like, okay, who is trying to book you on there? Do you have a VA or assistant of some kind pitching for you.
I have a VA that, like, makes a list and that I pitch them.
Can you train the VA to pitch?
I I can. The reason I haven’t is because I posted in, like, the Slack about and, having, like, whether to have my B. I pitch, and then Christie said she wouldn’t even, like, look at, like, a podcast application if it was wasn’t sent by the person.
So that kind of Oh, no.
The video is pretending to be you.
Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. They’re just they’re signed it. They’re sending from your email address a hundred percent. And it’s just like, hey, Abby here. Just a template that they then know how to modify because you’ve taught them. You took an hour to teach them how to do this thing well for you. And steal it from your email address, and that’s it.
Mhmm.
So it’s like thinking about, like, how to automate kind of the steps to the high reward stuff or, like, outsource, minimize friction.
Do you have an SOP for it that your VA can then be trained on? And then when you do, if getting on podcasts is a huge high value win for you, but it’s it’s a slog to get there. It’s a it’s a quantity game a lot of the time. Like how much as you put out there.
Then yeah, outsource that. Send that off. That’s a great thing for your VA to do. It doesn’t take specialized skills.
Not if they have your training, yeah, to do it. So I get the VA on it, but yeah, send from your email address or something that’s a good fake of your email address.
Like AP at instead of Abby at or whatever.
Mhmm.
Cool. Yeah. That makes so much sense. You make it sound so obvious. Of course.
Thank you.
No. No worries. Awesome. Anna.
Hey. I just had a question about the ebook I’m writing right now.
Love it.
So, I think I know the answer to this, but I wanna just confirm. It is fair game to quote any studies that are publicly out there. Right?
What about, like, screenshots of that’s because it’s on pricing page. So can I can I use screenshots or pricing pages that are out there in public right now? Or do I have to, like, seek permission?
Or I think Jessica wants to answer this.
I’m watching your face, Jessica. Oh, no.
I thought you did for, like, the folks that No.
I just I just wanna make sure everybody knows I’m engaged. I don’t Oh, yes. I do know the answer.
You guys publishing for us. So I thought like, oh, you probably have a good take on this.
Yeah.
Yeah. So in my experience, it’s what are you copying or screenshotting and is it proprietary?
So there are some cases where you’re not allowed to use an image without paying a fee for it.
But you usually know those things. Right? A screenshot of someone’s website is it’s a public thing as long as you cite, and I would recommend citing everything about it that it’s copyrighted by X company. The screenshot was taken on this date.
And that’s that’s cool. Then you can do that. It can also be actually a pretty useful way to start promoting your book when the time comes. When you’re like, Hey, I used your page as a great example in my book. It’s coming out. Do you wanna copy of it?
That kind of thing. Right? And then they might say like, oh, I didn’t realize people were just using screenshots of our website. What? And you might be like, oh, fuck.
But, that’s just the conversation that you have at that point, but it doesn’t have to be weird. I no one’s ever run any quotes that, like, when Ann Handley put me in her book, I didn’t find out till someone was like, Joe, you’re in Ann’s book. And same for product led growth. Nobody told me this was gonna happen.
But I would just ended up in there. And I wasn’t like, damn you, Ann. I was like send flowers to Ann. So it’s it’s it’s I wouldn’t worry about it just do what you can to cite where it came from. And wherever possible, only take screenshots of things where you’re gonna tell a good story about it. If it’s, like, a bad thing, mock up a version of it and just remove anything.
Actually, that was gonna be my my next question. So if I just mock up and make a random, like, I could take it a pricing page and and then play around with it on Photoshop and change it up completely. Just to use the bad example.
That’s obviously fine. Right? Because no one’s gonna know where it came from or yeah.
Yeah. And then the reader also likes you a little more. Right? You’re like, look, these are some bad things I’ve seen.
I’m not gonna call anybody out. Everybody means while you, the reader, you mean well. But here’s what are what people are doing wrong. And then you can show, like, mock ups, but not the thing.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Last question.
Does it matter how long the ebook is? So I I I thought I would wrap something up in, like, thirty pages.
Okay.
But it’s it looks like it’s gonna get to, like, seventy pages.
And I’m wondering, like, are people gonna read that or Who is your target?
K. Good question.
So c level execs that will Yeah. Because the whole idea is to build authority and and show that this is a comprehensive thing.
On pricing pages. Right? So someone who gets a hold of it, the impression I want them to get is like, oh, didn’t know there was so much to talk about when it came to Verizon pages. It seems like this person knows this thing.
A hundred percent. Yes. So I just chatted over the title of a book called write useful books, go read it through your kindle, read it right away.
It’s great, but it will make you identify who your target audience is and things like referral referrals that are built into their heads. So it’s gonna be really useful.
Read right useful books as you’re doing this.
Think about that target audience and think about where they’re reading it. I think I’ve talked about this before with April.
With obviously awesome. She was gonna get it traditionally published.
Sorry if I’m repeating it, but it’s really good advice. The traditional publisher was it needs to be sixty thousand words and she’s like, no, I can’t. And the reason was for her was, but I travel on planes and I read books on planes, like that’s when a lot of sea levels in their careers hop on. That’s when they that’s when they read books.
So if that’s the case, then how long is the average flight that a sea level is going to able to read your book. Three or four hours. So you have to make it start to finish in three to four hours, which is like I think it’s something like thirty thousand words at most, knowing that they’re just skimming a lot of it and just like rolling through it.
But, yeah, thirty thousand words, I think is what came out as like the ideal length for a c level to read a book.
Thousand words. Okay. I’ll keep that in mind.
Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Thanks.
And of course, we have love screenshots in there.
It’s gonna go a lot faster. It doesn’t mean you have to take up the whole flight though. Like, if they’re able to finish the book and start writing the email to you that’s like, loved your book, let’s talk. That’s a good thing.
Right? If they can get all that work done on the plane and then walk off and go. Awesome. What’s next?
You know?
Yeah. Got it.
Awesome. Love it. Read write useful books.
Okay. Anybody else?
I do have a couple like brainstorm questions. They’re very low. Like, you probably be like really are you asking me this, but I just wanted to get brain power because we have a lot of that in the room if that’s okay.
Yeah. We do. Yeah. We got eight minutes still. Let’s go.
Okay. I’m trying to think of which one Alright. I’ll go with the second question because I have a feeling your mindset has changed around this a little bit. So I kind of Soft launched my new newsletter called the holiday win and So what I’m wondering is you used to do a lot of free stuff to grow your list, but you’ve recently made comments about not doing that in the books and that. So I’m just wondering how are we feeling about that right now? Any suggestions?
About free content? To grow your email list. Yes.
Right. I mean, our free content’s just different now. Our free content that grows our email list is on Instagram, and with like many chat and boards. Right? That’s really it.
But still, they’re still free. It’s just it’s just different.
I know the the name makes me wanna watch a Hallmark movie though to be very clear.
No. The goal was to rip it off of the old movie.
So that’s Oh, cool.
That’s awesome. Good. Yeah.
Yeah. But give a give it away in your newsletter. The good thing of are you using Substack?
No. So you mentioned something about Substack and then I had to do research on what was the latest drama and then I was like dang it. So do I grow it on there or not?
Feels a little problematic.
Yeah. No. We’ve stopped using Substack too. Yeah.
But I thought if you were okay with it, No.
I saw the research or I looked it up after you mentioned it. You’re ruined my email strategy, Joe. Alright.
We’re ruined mine too.
So the so whatever alternative comes out for sub stack, that doesn’t allow Nazis to be the Nazis on there.
Is, hopefully the next thing to use then just because you can charge for your archives. And if you have good shit you’re giving out, you should be charging for the archive.
So that’s that. But your goal is to grow your list. And if your goal is to grow your list with quality leads, then free is obviously is the is the way to go. It’ll get more people on.
It’s just a question of how quality are those are those leads. But a lot of them are quality just because they’re looking for free out of the gate doesn’t mean they’re ever going to be looking for free. Just wanna make sure you’re not full of crap. Right?
So let’s try you for free and then pay you later.
Yeah. That’s my take. Does anybody else have thoughts on this?
Do you give stuff away free to grow your list? Any tips?
No one wants to talk about it.
I no. I mean, I already have any advice it’s an interesting question, but I I don’t know. I think, I think about the content itself being, yeah, engaging and teaching something. Maybe it’s just a hint of something and you’re not giving anything away. I mean, I’m thinking of the the email the the the the people I’ve subscribed to who I read. And it’s it’s supposed to be people who are into entertaining first.
Maybe, yeah, actually first. And then secondly, teach me stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
James Claire is three two one method, work really well, and there’s another copywriter who somehow I got on this list.
He does three two one for copywriting.
Three examples to something and then one tip or something like that. And it’s a good read.
So, I don’t know, food for thought as you think of the format as well for your newsletter.
Cool. Naomi.
So I want to get more into Go ahead podcast.
And so I was building a list of, podcasts that I thought were relevant And somebody mentioned to me that you that I could probably write a script and just outsource that, have somebody put that together and send an email to all those people. But I was I thought that would be too impersonal that they get a lot of they got a lot of mail looking for guests and that it would make a lot more sense to do it. Like, actually listening to the podcast and mentioning something relevant, So I was wondering what you thought about that. Is that something?
Yeah. Did you hop off for a bit on this call already?
Yeah. I had two during my meeting for the ending.
And then you hop back up. So Abby actually asked the same question, and it was about podcast pitching, how to make it personal, And so, really quick and it’s in the replay if you want more detail, but it really is, documents like a template.
For outreach to these podcasts, and then, teach your VA or somebody that is inexpensive to send these pitch emails from your email address. So it looks like it’s from Naomi. It’s written in the first person. Hi, etcetera.
And they all do the research too. So the VA listens to the podcast or reads the reviews or whatever the whatever the thing is that teach the VA to do and then they have a goal that you give them of like five pitches a day or whatever that goal is that you need for them to to get your name out there. But yeah, it’s an SOP. This is the leverage part of the big sunshine growth model. Of have that SOP with templates associated with it, and then teach a VA to do it. And just make it look personal by personalizing and sending it from naomi at.
Okay.
Great. Awesome. Thanks. Is there another question there?
Are we good? I have one more question. Sorry. It’s another brainstorm one. Okay. So I did do the the win is a hundred million offers.
I flushed out the whole seasonal sale holiday offer thing. So Next the sales page, right? So and now this. So my only thought is I really need to get more people see like going through this process so I can finesse it and I’m getting still a lot of email and I know a lot of that is authority related but to get some quicker like and I get a few seasonal sales and no door.
Yeah. Any suggestions about more of a fast approach to that part?
Like, you’re just trying to get people to test this out on?
Essentially.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s like you said on really no dollar offers. It’s formosa kind of solution here, I would do what he has said to do in that case. Do you have a system?
If you have system, then you post on LinkedIn and say, hey, I’m looking for five companies that meet this criteria to run through my system on the next holiday for free in exchange for me being able to daw to tell the world about this and to take examples away from it. That’s a third thing to do. But just make sure you have it as like system so that you’re not guessing your way through their holiday emails for free.
Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. I’ll do that.
Okay. Fine. Alright. Well, we’re at the end of our time. Thanks, everyone, for your great questions. Nobody shared a win, but I wasn’t gonna harp on that too much. It’s pretty mean about it.
My win is being in CSV. That is a win.
Okay. Awesome. The replay will be available later. Thanks y’all, and we will be following up more on this diagnostic tool as we chat more.
Okay? Okay. Thanks, though. Have a good one. Bye.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
Today, as you saw in the worksheets, thanks for coming on camera. We’re gonna be talking about a diagnostic tool, and we’ll get into the details of that. As always, we’re gonna kick it off with some training And then, in today’s training though, we’ll be spending some time doing, like, work, based on the training. So expect to, you know, put aside twenty minutes at the end of this to start doing some thinking through what we’re talking about. And then we’ll do the usual AMA.
Always kick it off with a win, please, a win of any kind helps everybody stay motivated and see how many cool things there are to do out there. And then any any question you got, the more specific, the more context you can give the better.
Everybody good.
Good. Alright. We’re recording this. When you ask a question, please do come on camera wherever possible.
Please do be on camera so people can connect with you and see a smiling or whatever face you don’t have to smile no more. Whatever feels right is good. Okay. I am going to share my screen.
Alright. So this is this is cool. This is something that we’ve been working on for a little while.
For freelancing school as well as for people who are going to be joining, copy school pro. And that is a better way to diagnose what you need to work on because a lot of people are looking for road maps. Right? And that’s not just for students.
Your clients also want some form of roadmap. Like, what are you what what are we here for? Where are you gonna take me How do I know it’s the right thing to do? So this tool is a way and you’re gonna come up with your own today.
It’ll be the starting point for your own. This is a tool that helps you across every part of converting and delivering to people and also setting projects. So, You may have questions about this. I don’t think you’re gonna walk out of today’s session going.
I totally get it. I got the right one. It’s perfect. Everything’s amazing. This is gonna be the beginning of starting to think through something that you might work out over the course of the next month.
But here is the idea. So I’m on this.
Why does it say that’s page two? Everything says page two. It’s not. It’s actually four. Sorry.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter. But it’s the general diagnostic template. This page in your worksheet your workbook.
This is the idea here. Hopefully, you’re not on a very small screen.
The, again, the idea here is to figure out what the general three or four parts of what you deliver that is a solution to your client or student as you start to scale to teaching more to their problem what that what that is so you can then go in and say, here’s what you’re missing, here’s what you don’t have to work on, but here’s what do have to work on here is how we can work together. So, for example, I’m gonna show you first of all, like the end. What we’re working toward. Now this is our model. It’s currently called the Sunshine growth model because it looks a little bit like a this is multiple iterations on it that I’ve been playing with, but let me zoom in here and then we can talk specifically about what the hell it even is. Okay.
So someone comes to me and this is based on just years and years of coaching freelance copywriters and particular but also marketing consultants, etcetera.
Someone comes to me and they’re like, Joe, I’m, you know, I’ve plateaued. I would love to get to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars is the most common thing that people say. I’m at about a hundred. I wanna get to two fifty. What’s stopping me?
And so really what I’m hearing is like you’d like to get to about a grand a day of consistent income. And so that could be twenty days of the work month that works out to about two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year or all the days, and that works out to about three hundred sixty thousand dollars a year. So that’s the problem that most people come to me trying to solve until they get to that and they’re like, okay. Now I wanna get to three million.
I got to three sixty. Now I wanna get to three point six. Let’s do that. And that would still come down to a lot of what we’re seeing here.
So this is how it breaks down and then I’m gonna show you how it draws out when we’re talking with people who are considering coming in to copy school professional, and then we’ll talk about what that means for you and for your new clients, leads when you’re having those lead conversations as well as how you deliver on something with clients So this is one way to do it, especially if you have felt scattered. If you felt like there, people come to you for all the things and you know know what to say no to. You never feel really good saying no.
People come to you and they’re all for the same general thing, but they have different problems within that same general thing. And your job is always like a little too custom. You don’t want it to always be custom because then it’s hard to offload things to people. You don’t have the leverage of like, here is how we do this work.
Go do it for me so I can mark up what you do, and get paid for not doing anything other than basically teaching you for you to deliver for me and then I then bill. Let me explain. Okay. So someone comes to me and says, Joe, basically, I wanna make a thousand dollars a day help Cool.
There are four actually five but four key parts that usually their work comes down to. So we can say okay. I can draw this out sharing my iPad as shown in the worksheet and I can say, okay, let’s talk through these four things, your skills, your authority, your money, and that means all things money. Money, not as leverage, but money as pricing.
Are you targeting the right audience? Do you have everything that you need? In order to make that money that you want to. Does your current audience only want to spend a thousand dollars on a single VIP day and then they’ll hit you up every six months for one.
You can’t build a business that way. Right? So and then we talked about leverage. And then what’s keeping you from all of those things too is also mindset mindset or copywriters.
Like for nobody else mindset is like such a challenge. It’s very hard. If you don’t have mindset issues and a lot of people here are working really well through any that you might have and maybe getting to a point where you don’t have mindset issues. Congratulations because that’s again and again. And I’ve said this before in Copyschool Pro. It’s such a big deal.
Getting your head right about your skills, about your authority, about a about your sense of scarcity and money out there. Who would pay me for this? And then leverage getting your head right about people, what it means to hire someone, what it means to document a creative process.
Okay. So we can draw this out. And that’s exactly what we want to do. And I’m going to switch over to, my iPad right away here and show you what we do and what you should be doing when you are going through a diagnosis of how to solve a problem with your clients or leads. Sorry.
Boop. Okay. Really simply what we do and what I’m suggesting that you do and my iPad’s been flipping around a lot today. So hopefully it doesn’t mess it up.
But we draw a circle. It’s allowed to be ugly. It doesn’t have to be perfect. And in the middle, we put our one thousand.
And we’re drawing this and sharing it with them and like talking them through it. Right? And then we have these parts that come out of there and we write in skills and sorry just going through this authority.
Money and leverage, then talk them through that. And this is what you’ll be doing with your own process Right?
So, like, okay. Here’s the problem we wanna solve. Here in the middle, it’s a thousand dollars a day. That’s what we’re aiming toward.
Here are the things that are keeping you pretty much. Think about this for your client. Your clients come to you and they say we want five hundred more paid conversions a month. So you put that in the middle.
Here. Five hundred more paid conversions a month. So you put like five hundred or you turn that into the dollar figure, like each conversion is worth ten dollars. So that’s five thousand.
Okay. Fine. So you put that in the middle and then you talk through the parts that are your process that are like critical to delivering five thousand dollars or those five hundred paid conversions a month. So they’re seeing, okay, you’re walking them through.
There’s skills. There’s authority. There’s money. There’s leverage. In in our case, probably not in yours.
Yours might be research and discovery.
And like the conversion copy writing process or something like that, right? Even if it’s for SAS brands, you might be like, okay, we have, you know, the five parts It’s more of a Pentagon shape and it’s got all five parts of pirate metrics. Let’s say. But let’s let’s focus on this. So here’s what I do.
Get the person who you’re talking to to also write this out. So say, hey, pick up a piece of paper. I want you to draw this with me. So you draw a circle just like this. Yours will be better than mine. I’m not an artist, etcetera.
Write these words from there. You write skills, you write authority, you write money, you write leverage. Great. Cool. Now all I want you to do is write this out and then we’re going to see how you’re doing on all of these points. So we have advanced skills you can sell. We have case studies and proof and we have advanced skills you can use.
So that’s like in this case it might be something more like advanced skills you can sell are am I really, really good at writing long form sales pages. Do I have case studies and proof for long form sales pages? And do I have advanced skills that I can use in my business like setting up a funnel for new leads so that I can sell them long form sales pages? Okay.
So write those down. Don’t do anything with them yet. And then you move on to the next one. Alright.
Next up is authority.
You’ve got your specialization or your niche, and you’ve got thought leadership.
My penmanship is shit. Don’t worry. And then you’ve got things like biz dev, which means everything to do with marketing, pipeline, etcetera. Cool. That’s how we start thinking through your authority.
When it comes to making money, do you have the right audience?
Do you have a standardized offer?
Maybe with a retainer option? Do you have, are you are you charging the right money for the thing that you deliver and the value that it is for your audience. And then we get into leverage and that is SOPs and documentation that is tools and process and that is people. Okay. So we walk them through this, getting them nodding along with us. They can ask questions as you go, and then comes the diagnosis.
This is where you go through and you have them identify if there are different ways to do this. There’s red, yellow, green is really common.
So anybody here yeah. Has probably gone through red, yellow, green. Some people have gone through red, yellow, green with us. So you go through and you say, okay.
On skills. If I was if I was bringing you into coffee school pro. Talk to me about are you red, are you yellow, are you green on advanced skills that you can sell? Do you feel really good about that.
And they can say like, well, I actually think I’m a pretty good copywriter. That’s not the problem. Great. So we’ll call that green.
How about proof? How are you on proof? Do you have good case studies? Yeah. I’ve got great case studies.
Okay. Cool. You’re good there. How about advanced skills you can use? What’s your funnel like?
If I don’t have a funnel okay cool then we’ll call that red and we’ll mark it as such. So you go through and you do that whole process with them and then by the end all you’re going to worry about are the things that are red. So if they’re not good at identifying where the red or yellow, that’s a sign that you probably shouldn’t work with them. If they’re like, we’re bringing on all of this.
Like, this, I’m perfect at all of this, and you’re like, Cool. You don’t need my help, peace, and get the hell out of the room. But if they’re decent at, like, identifying, like, You know, I thought we were green on that, but I think we might be yellow. And I thought we were yellow on that, but I think we might be red.
Then you can start identifying how you’ll work with them. So I’m read on skills I can use and thought leadership, and I’m read on Biz dev. I also don’t have any people. My tools are okay, but I don’t have a single SOP at all.
Great. So now we’re coming up with things where we can say, okay. We’re going to work on are these things. And then from there for your client, you can start saying okay.
We can talk through what we can do across all of these, areas of greatest opportunity build out a roadmap for what a project like that would look like, etcetera. Now this is possibly going to be hard to think through for you right now because this is focused on like coffee school pro. You, however, can do this exact thing for your clients as well, and you should be doing this for your clients. So now I’m going to go back to sharing the worksheet.
I’m just gonna zoom out here.
There.
So you can do the same thing for different stuff. Right? So here on this page, I’ve got a triangle shape that you might have for list offer copy. So let’s say you are working on, you’re in conversion copywriting and you sell sales pages.
That’s your thing. That’s what you wanna do. You wanna be perfect at it. You love it.
You’re gonna be amazing at it. Cool. You know it breaks down into list offer copy. Now the tricky thing with something like this is every part of this has to be something you can work on them with.
So if someone comes to you and says, I need a new sales page. I want it to make a hundred thousand dollars. You’re like, cool. Let’s talk.
Then you draw the triangle, you write lists, offer copy on there and you talk through lead age. Okay? Talk to me about your leads. How old are they?
How many fresh leads do you have? Are you red, green, or yellow on that? And then you color that in for whatever they are. Okay.
Now what about the quality of these leads? Where are they coming from? How are you finding them? Do they have the money?
What do you know about them? And they tell you that. Deliverability. Talk to me about how your emails are going right now.
Are people able to get to your sales page your emails, or is anything even happening there? Are you trying to drive people from Facebook, which is more about lead quality, straight to your sales page and they tell you if they’re red, yellow, or green on those things. You go around and do all of this and that can help you better diagnose not just the current project, but like a a bigger scale project that they’re buying into because they’re the ones who said I’m red on that. And if you can deliver on turning them from red to green, then it can go back through and do the the redo the diagnostic tool all the time, every at the end of each part of your project and be like, okay.
How are we feeling now about our lead age if that was a red and you got them there. Now they’re like, cool. Awesome job getting us to green. That’s amazing.
And you’ve got it documented for exactly what you have done for them.
But critically anything that’s showing in your diagnostic has to be something that you can do. Is where list offer copy can be a little bit tricky if you don’t do list stuff. If you’re like, I don’t attract leads, I can’t do anything for you. Then that’s a problem because they’re gonna walk away and go, oh, okay.
We have to go get some to take care of this, and then we’ll come back and talk to you later, which they might not do. They liked your diagnosis, great. But we wanna keep them here. So you would only break down your process.
This shape that you have into things that you will actually do. And that’s where if you are like, okay, I’m targeting SAS and they do care about pirate metric still, let’s say, not everybody that’s a lot of people have problem with it, but let’s just pretend. Okay. So you break down the five parts of pirate metrics, but you know you don’t do the first you don’t, you know, you don’t do the last one either.
So you would draw a triangle only for those three that you do. Okay. So your shape is dependent on the number of parts that you have here. A triangle is really easy and a circle is really easy.
You can draw a circle. You can break it up into four parts. We’re used seeing paragraphs. We’re used to seeing these sorts of shapes and our brains align with them.
Right? Like yes, if it’s a triangle, it’s a real thing. It’s kind of like rhyme is reason.
Same thing is here. So we could do research strategy writing and experimentation. This is the conversion copy writing process and then you get to say what parts are in here. So if you’re like all I do when it comes to research is jobs and new lead surveys.
I don’t wanna do anything else, then make it your two things. And you can say How are you all for job surveys? When’s the last time you did a jobs to be done, or interviews? When’s the last time you did a a jobs interview?
Set. And they’re like, we’ve never done one. I’m like, cool. You’re right on that new lead surveys.
How are you for that? And you can go through and walk them through this. And by the end, they’re like, shit, you’ve got a process. You have some way of helping me understand what my problem is in a way that nobody else ever has and you drew it for me, which is also a really interesting thing that only a pro is going to do.
I now know that I’m red on five things. I’m green on one thing. So that’s cool. I can take that back to my team and say, oh, we don’t have to worry about this.
Y’all, here are the five things we have to worry about. And when I hire you to do this work, we can then go back and say, okay. How are we now on this? Do you think we’re still red on this?
Are we yellow yet? And so on and so forth? This make sense to everybody?
Yeah.
Alright. Any questions about it?
Probably not yet. What I want you to do is hop into making your own for the people that you want to convert. So again, this is coming down to what’s your red thread or your one thing, what do you do, and try to think about what one thing you wanna sell more than anything.
If it’s like I just want fifty thousand dollar projects that that are like focused on x. I don’t know what that thing is. Or you know what it is. In some cases, I know what it is from talking with you, but for the whole group and anybody watching the replay, I don’t know what it is.
You know what it is. Try to know. If you don’t know, try to know, you’re allowed to build your future. This is what we’re doing.
So just like document the thing that you most wanna sell. I wanna sell fifty thousand dollar engagements that last two months and do these three things with this outcome. Okay, fine. Once you know that, then you can start to say what your process is to get there.
Now, process might not be the right word if you hear a process and you go, I don’t think it’s my process, you’re probably right. There are different ways to go about this. I wanna show you the end what it could look like, how it works, and then it’s up to you to come up with what that diagnostic is, and it can mean thinking through past calls you’ve had with clients and what they’ve shared with you or what you know you’re always delivering what you’re best at. But you definitely wanna think about your one thing and the only thing that you ever wanna sell if possible.
Okay?
Are you good to give this a shot for the next twenty minutes?
Yeah.
Just try it and then we’ll come back and share challenges you had with it or whatever Alright? Twenty minutes on the clock. I’m gonna stop recording. Thanks, Sarah.
Abby, if because it went so quickly, you need to share what you made. Let’s see it.
Okay. Right. Can you see my screen?
Just about yes.
Yeah. Is it tiny? Let me zoom in.
How’s that?
Cool?
Alright. Yes. We can see it. So just to be clear, all four parts of this you can deliver on.
Yeah. Including lead quality.
Yes.
Okay. But we have all the, yeah, part. Is it someone on your team or is it you?
It’s me. So I’m thinking, like, I’m thinking about my course here, but the course is basic. It’s it’s just the DIY version of my done for you offer.
So with the lead quality, the I do Facebook teach Facebook ad testing and then also, like, using thank you paid responses to make sure that you’re, like, bringing in the right people or that the messaging is resonating with the right people. So, yeah. Okay.
Awesome. Okay. So you walk them through this, and did you try, like, try it out because you had all this extra time? Like, did you try kind of pretending that you were walking a lead or even a prospective student through this model.
Yeah. Well, I was thinking, like, is this like your IP? Or are we free to chair this?
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. The idea is that now you go forward in you use it to close people and then deliver.
Yeah. Because I’ve I’ve been, like, running into a problem recently with my course where like, I wanna shift away from, like, the, kinda make money every day messaging and more towards, like, for people who have already tried it and failed, so a more kind of advanced training.
And I think, like, having something like this actually in the webinar would help kind of widen the out so that they can identify, like, all the areas that are gonna be, like, limiting their conversion. So, yeah, so it was, oh, that’s cool. I like it.
Awesome. Yeah. It is a sales tool, and also a, a way of measuring success as you go. Like a sense of progress when most of the time the way we measure these things is like, well, did I?
Is it done or isn’t it? And did I get sales or didn’t I or whatever that like bigger goal is? It’s like, well, no, there’s components along the way. And if we can make those all green, then you’re more likely to get that end goal that you’re looking for.
So, yeah, definitely use it in sales of any kind, webinars sales calls, all of it. Cool. Any questions for any, for Abby from anybody?
No? Alright. Fun. Cool. I will talk more about how to integrate this into the process and like modifying modifying offers and things as as we go.
Anybody else wanna share or chat about what didn’t work? What you’re still working on. Keep in mind, I’ve been working on this for a long time. And, like, I still have tweaks that I’m making and like, full on changes, like mindset was its own thing for a while, then I was like, no, mindset is across all of these things. So, I put it in the middle.
Johnson?
Yeah. I was wondering, because some of the things that I were down I I don’t have a process or a system for, but I I think that areas that I could cover, later as the product is fleshed out, or full of service. What do you have any advice for is that should I try and focus on stuff that I can just do right now or do a separate one that’s what I can do right now and one that’s more sort of future based?
Can it stand well without those parts that you don’t currently do well? Like how feasible is it to cut those parts out and have it still work?
Yeah. Sure. I could probably just merge them to together and do it more generalized because I’m kinda breaking things down maybe a little too far. Yeah. I could do that.
Yeah. If you can pull it, then you’ve you’ll confidently know you can deliver everything showing there. Right? So you wanna be able to obviously have a strong position of confidence in every call that you’re taking any webinar you might be running where you do this kind of thing.
So cut out what you can’t deliver yet, and then maybe just only add it back in when you’ve got somebody in your back pocket who can do that thing for you or when you can do it. Mhmm. Yeah. Cool.
Yeah. Okay. Cool. And then just make sure that the story comes together. Again, most people who you’re going to be showing this to don’t have a better sense for what you’re talking about than you do So whatever you show them is true.
It’s it’s like it’s not necessarily going to open up a whole bunch of skepticism.
So if you leave something off knowing eventually you’re gonna add that thing on, then that’s cool. Right? Cause they’re not thinking way you got this wrong, Johnson, you forgot about this point. Like, they’re thinking like, cool, cool, cool, cool. I’m red on this. Oh, I’m red. Yeah.
So that’s actually super helpful. Yeah. And she’s just like both of these exercises, this one and last week’s one. I found useful, not just for the lows itself, but also in sort of thinking about the areas, that I might be using these things in the future, just the red thread stuff and for developing a new, idea. So, anyway, it’d be cool. Thank you, anyway.
Big it. Love it. That’s cool. Wicked it. Anybody else wanna chat? But what they did.
Can I just ask Joe? Like, do you recommend right?
Do you recommend, the whole drawing it live or having the design. Like, I mean, I love I was also doing it in Canva, like, So bringing it on, bringing it with us, ready to show them, or, doing it on the call.
It’s more engaging when you have something to watch. Right? So if it’s like if you just bring up a model, then I’m reading through it while you’re talking.
If you bring up a blank sheet and you draw it and then you write a word, I’m engaged. Like, I’m waiting for what’s next. Right? So, and that’s what we really want is not for them to jump ahead and think they got it but for you to control that whole flow and then you say and now let’s talk about what you’re red and green on and then you color in red, color it, show them that thing. It’s for me, a horrible penmanship.
Everything’s a mess. But that’s not really the point. Right? They’re watching. They’re not saying like, so why don’t you pay better attention in grade three?
They were teaching you how to like make it look good. They’re just like going with it. Right? And like all they’re interested in is what am I red on?
Oh, what am I green on? Thank god. I’m green, but they’re watching the whole way. So, yes, long story short.
I do recommend that you draw it.
And I also recommend that I didn’t wanna make this like part of today’s session, but find someone in the room here to try this out with where their your perspective client and you hop on a call and you say talk me through this and they’re just pretending. So just like do some role playing then they can do the same for you and you can like work out the kinks of actually presenting it live and new ways to draw it and think about it. Yeah.
Cool.
Cool. Fine.
Anybody else?
I can share mine.
Cool. Yeah.
So typically what I do, even if I don’t have a drawing for it, is I start by looking at the campaign, figuring out which, what keywords they’re targeting, what their campaign looks like, whether it’s on Google or LinkedIn or Facebook, etcetera. And then figuring out what they need to prioritize. So if that’s landing pages, that’s landing pages, it might be the website, the homepage, it might be, the ads, so figuring out exactly what they need to optimize.
Then going through sales calls, sometimes that means going through like g two or Kaptura reviews, and then usually tools.
Sometimes users are testing, but definitely hotjar and Google Analytics. Then figuring out what the best framework is to use.
I I think that defining the persona would also be part of this, although I’m not sure that’s something I would be part of. That’s something I wouldn’t ask them about, because of that would determine, like, is this Are they targeting mid market? Are they targeting enterprise? Are they targeting medium businesses? And within those three categories, which, level of seniority.
But I guess that would fall under research, then actually writing, then usability testing meaning, like, validating the the copy and then finally AB testing.
Cool. It looks great. The only thing I would say is, there are some things on here that are big, like underwriting, you’ve got all those assets. And so if if it’s hard for them to identify what red, yellow, or green, then that’s kind of tricky. So what can you do here even if it comes down to combining strategy and research into one like thinking upfront, right? Like thinking or planning or something like that.
I would just encourage you to break up writing more.
So that because I might look at this and go like, okay. While I suck on CRO prioritization, I’m red on that. I’m green on tools. I’m green on VOC.
I’m probably wrong about being green on VOC, but I say that. Analytics. I don’t know. I have no idea.
Like, why don’t think about it that way? Maybe. Right? So I’m yellow there.
Writing. Well, I have a bunch of those. Let’s call it green.
And that’s the problem. Like, they they might have a bunch of things and think that’s okay.
It just that’s the only thing that stood out to me. That assets little piece of the pie is containing a lot. Can do something to open it up?
Well, the idea being that if they’re, like, the the asset that they would need would depend on what they’re prioritizing. So if their landing pages are leaking leads, then it would be landing pages. If they’re not driving off traffic at the top of the funnel, then it would be ads, And if their maybe their ads are not getting clicked on, then maybe it would be even higher. It would be more like brand awareness, social organic. Kind of work. That’s why I lumped them together.
That’s cool. And then I wonder though, then if you’re really To me, I’m envisioning a sort of triangle now. That’s more like leads or attract.
Convert and, like, retain or refer or revenue or something else. And then you could get into might be strategy in the I don’t know, but to me it feels like yeah. There’s something there, and I think what you’re saying is right. It might just need a different I don’t know. A different shape. Yeah.
I could do that. Because usually the question is, well, where are we leaking weeds or why aren’t we getting enough leaves? Why is our pipeline a mess?
Yeah. Great.
And the question is like, well, how do we figure that out? Because that’s not an easy question to answer.
Not. Not. But if you would dedicate a whole side of a triangle or whatever that final shape is, I don’t know, to leads then you can talk honestly about, like, okay, leads are red, but once we get them to convert them, we’re green on version and then we’re sucky on experimentation or whatever that other part is.
Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. That makes more sense.
Okay. Cool. Love it. That’s great.
Thanks Naomi. Anybody else wanna share or talk or share anything about what they just saw?
Can I share something?
Abby were you commenting?
Or I was just saying that it looked really nice.
Like, it looked it looked very, like, Yeah. Sounds good. Good job. Awesome.
Totally. Stacy, please go ahead.
I I have one that I wanna share that I didn’t do on the call today, but I did in the past. Okay. I just wanna share it because I want somebody to appreciate it.
Nice. It’s messy. Okay. It’s a scorecard.
It’s a scorecard, but the the thing the under and and I love the idea of using in this in a sales call, although everything I do in my universe is structured to avoid me ever have get on a call with anyone.
Okay.
So I set up my three things. I I created the ABCs of superior content, which are audio brand and craft. So those are the three things. And the audience part will, you know, that would involve the voice of customer and interviews, etcetera, understanding the audience, then brand has to do with brand voice, personality, and then Craft is the actual writing of content, which would be combining journalistic writing persuasions, storytelling with subject matter expertise.
So I go through and and and ask them six questions in each of in each of these three areas. So there’s eighteen questions altogether, and then it gives the gives the results in a scorecard and then I use score app, which is a good lead gen processing sort of follow-up thing. Yeah. So I just wanted share because because I’m proud of my scorecard.
That’s cool. I love it, and the ABC is a really nice thing to remember, obviously.
And it could go really nicely in a triangle and you could clearly, like, diagnose how am I on audience, how am I on brands, I don’t remember what the third one was. Sorry. And now it’s Craft. Craft.
That’s the actual writing. Yeah. And it does display. It displays it in that targeted, you know, thing where it scores them on each of the three areas in the in the report that it generates.
Nice. That’s cool. That’s great. Yeah. Even if they, like, diagnosed themselves and then went through the score.
Anyways, it’s cool. It’s cool. Yeah. Love it.
Cool. Anybody else?
We’re good. Okay. Work this out. I do recommend that you like start making it part of your process, you’ll be surprised at how engaging it is for people when they see it drawn out.
You’re talking through and asking them questions, especially if in sales calls, you struggle to like know what to say next. This is like a really clear way to look like you’re a freaking pro and have done this a million even if it’s like your first time doing it live. Just practice with other people in the room. If you don’t have anybody to practice with yet, chances are good.
Someone else doesn’t have anybody to practice with yet too. So, feel free to just chat right now and say, hey, does anybody wanna role play this with me?
And if not, go over in Slack and do it there too, and we’ll we’ll see what happens.
Cool.
Anybody have questions? We’ve got thirty minutes ish left. If you have to go, cool, respect your time. If you have questions to ground, Katie, do you have one?
Yeah. So I’m can you just speak a bit more to, like so we’ve established where they’re red and where they’re yellow and where they’re green?
Am I aiming to then put to, like, can you, take it into the pitch? So, like, am I aiming to put together one proposal that covers, like, first, we’re gonna address the red, and then we’re gonna talk about the yellow, or how do I go into turning that into an offer?
Exactly. Yes. So I think there’s lots of ways you can do it. Right? So whatever is triggering for you, like in your imagination, roll with that but the really yeah the thing that you wanna walk away with is now it’s not just, hey, I need a sales page, but it’s also, hey, I need to get better at this, this, this, and this.
Your project now got bigger. You’re also a consultant. That’s more strategic. Right? So you walk away from there going Here are the four things we need to work on before we even work on writing your sales page.
Let me take this away, put together, some ideas for you. You send me x, y, and z document that I need. So you said you’re strong on research. Send me some so I can look at it. And then we’re gonna hop on a call, and I’ll walk you through my plan for how we can hit all of these things you read on in x period of time that you’ve told me you want this off like the thing that’s in the center of it, the five hundred paid conversions added a month or whatever.
We wanna get there in three months time. But we have to make these red things all green. We’ve agreed on that. You agree that you’re red on these things. So now we’re gonna go forward. I’ll put the other and I’m gonna come back and talk you through that plan. That’s a really, like, clear way for you to now go off and run a project.
Does that make sense? Like here’s my project now and it’s informed not just by what you said you think you need but what I have diagnosed you as really needing.
Yeah. I mean, I see this is super useful because I think I mentioned on our last the last call that I made it to live, like, I just feel like my project ideas are always really big, and I struggle to break them down into components. So this feels really helpful for that.
I guess what I’m taking away from what you’ve just said is like it would be helpful for me to have a sense of the hierarchy of the lights for for lack of better words so that I know, like, if that’s red, obviously, we’re gonna do this first and, and, like, turning that then into a proposal?
Yeah. And it’s sort of a process. So I said the word process, but I know sometimes it won’t feel like a process. So if you’re like, but it’s not a process. Okay. Don’t make it a process. But to me, it is.
To me, it’s like, okay, if it’s list offer that’s an order in which things go. Right? The conversion copywriting process has parts to it.
And so that should also lead to a sort of hierarchy, right, where you’re like, well, we can do everything we want with copy. But if your list is a mess or the people coming to it or wrong. If you’re red on that, no. So we clearly have to solve the the left part of the triangle first, whatever that’s called. I don’t geometry.
But we solve that over there. We solve list.
Then once we’re red once we’re green on those things, then we’ll talk about off for that list. Okay? And then we’ll talk about copies. You can start to see a gantt chart forming of how that project could go.
Like we’re gonna nail list I can’t come up with that live on a call. That’s not your job to come up with it live on a call. Right? You’re like, I’m I’m gonna go away and think about this for you.
You come up with the things you’re gonna do for improved list quality and quantity in x period of time.
Put that on the gantt chart here. What’s we’re gonna do in week one, week two, week three. Then week three, we’re also gonna start working on offer and and week six will be ready to work on copies. Now, you have like this project mapped out.
You’ve also got a built in way to go back and optimize things, right? So you can say we got through list offer copy, the parts of the triangle, red turn to yellow on these things and yellow turn to green, but now let’s go back and do more to further optimize it. So you have the initial project, as well as a map in effect or a retainer to optimize for performance. Does that make sense, Katie, or is that too much?
It makes sense.
I feel like I’m gonna have to revisit my, like, the categories that I’ve throat to make sure that they have a clear Okay.
Flow from one to the next. Okay. Yeah. And know I was just thinking like, well, what if they’re like, well, I don’t wanna work on that first. I wanna work on, like, I don’t I don’t wanna work on my I just wanna work on my sales page or something. I guess then it’s a question of like, do you wanna work with them?
I would say that’s the question and then. If you know list is actually red and they’re like, I don’t care, write the copy.
That’s not what I do. I can the copy will never convert if your list is garbage. Sorry. We gotta nail that and that’s where you have to be able to work on list.
In this case, right? You have to say like, no. I’m gonna nail this for you, then you’re gonna have you might not even need to work on the copy. It might just be a list look.
We’re green across the board on coffee.
So but that’s yeah. You you’re not just diagnosing what they need but are they a good fit for you to work with? They should walk away from this going. Holy shit, Katie.
No one’s ever shown it to us this way. That was great. How do we start nailing through like I had no idea that’s how this worked. That’s like the objective.
And if they don’t do that, they’re probably gonna be pretty tough to work with.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. I know it’s easy for me to say. Like, push away these people who don’t wanna do the first part of the process, but we all already know you. They’re not gonna be a good fit. Yeah.
Stacy, I know you have an AMA and then Abby.
So, my my question is about a project that I’m currently working on. I just did, message frameworks for this client often I work with enterprise companies. So I’m sort of a step removed from being able to get into benchmarking and AB testing and things like that because it’s also siloed off in big companies. In this particular instance, it’s a smaller company. They’re like a twenty million company, and my messaging framework meeting was with the whole c suite of, you know, so I had all four c level people.
So now we’re moving into actually doing a wireframe for the home page. And I’m working with that mostly with the CMO.
So they want to do an AB test against their current homepage with what I create. And so since I’m not used to sort of benchmarking before a project, I wanted to get some feedback on what I might be able to do as far as what what to ask for to establish some ben benchmarks and test against and any any tips about you know, that process because I know you do a lot having to do with the, with data, and it’s just something that I’m usually a step removed from.
Sure. So they are split testing though. Right?
They’re using Yes.
Optimizely or a tool like that.
They well, they they want AB test I haven’t talked to them about the mechanics of how they’re doing it, but I do know they want to split test, driving traffic and, you know, testing their current homepage against a new homepage that I’m writing the copy for.
Right. So understanding how the control is performing is Good. They should be telling you that, right? And then they’ll tell you the, metrics when they tell. Like, here’s here are the KPIs for this page.
It’s a homepage. So it’s likely you’ll need to document things like, amount of traffic coming to it, traffic sources, coming to it as well. If they’re using it as a landing page for Facebook ads and other things like that, It’s a problem. Right? Like, because the test at that point becomes less about a scientific test and more about like a game, where you’ve got traffic coming from weird sources that could have been brought in by any number of ads, etcetera. And they’re landing on this page. They’re so different.
That it’s almost like there are too many variables. I know it’s all in the variable of audience, but it’s so uncontrolled.
That your test is just going to feel fake. So understand where traffic is coming from. Try to get them on board with narrowing it down to their ideal audience. And I know that means organic traffic you can’t do anything about either, but people who are searching and landing on your homepage are likely not look you lose when we’re talking about business. This is SAS. This is a software company?
Or It’s, it is tech.
Yes. It’s it’s tech. So no Because it’s a CDN. It’s a it’s enterprise CDN.
Okay. Cool.
Good. So we can imagine that organic traffic that lands there. Is there by design in some way? So cool. What’s the traffic like that’s coming to it? How are they converting right now? So you need quantity of traffic than like a understanding a qualitative understanding of quality of traffic.
And then you need to know what that existing conversion rate is and what conversion rate means for them is likely going to be clicks. If it’s on the homepage, it’s probably clicks. The question is clicks to where?
We wanna drive sign ups to a a trial sign up for a free account.
Can they sign up for the free account from that page, or do they get driven to another page?
They can sign up on the homepage currently. And they, and and it’s not very focused and it can be much better than it is now.
Okay.
In other words, the homepage is not driving sign ups, and I think it could drive sign ups much more than it does.
Okay. Is there an email address field on the homepage?
That’s like start your trial?
Yes. There is.
Yes. There is. Oh, that’s an existing thing. Cool. You can optimize that. That’s great. So that would be probably number one.
It sounds like your number one goal is trial starts.
Trial starts. Yes.
Okay. So you need to document, know the the control and how it’s doing on trial start but also optimizely, we’ll know that too.
So you don’t you don’t have to write anything down if they’re using the right tool and if you’re all aligned on, what the objective is, like what, how are you going to measure it in a testing platform? You can set up multiple goals, and that’s trickiest part. You don’t want to set up too many goals. Home pages are hard though because things like bounce are gonna be an actual consideration on a homepage.
Try to keep them on task with What is the number one thing that this page is solving for? From a business perspective, why does the business invest money in this homepage. Why is this test a priority right now? And if it is, we wanna get trial starts as soon as they land there, then throw every other way of measuring the page out the door.
Don’t worry about bounce rate. We have to try scary things and some people are gonna bounce. And maybe they won’t. Maybe it’ll hold more people.
We’re not gonna worry about that. All we’re worried about is trial starts. So how does optimizely or whatever tool they use measure trial starts. What can you do in the tool?
Is it just like once they’ve clicked this button successfully or once they’ve landed on the next page is a common way to do that test. Are they landing on a confirmation page for like your trial is now started or landing an app? Which can also be tricky because there’s lots of different ways to land in at from a home page oftentimes. Point being, trial starts is what matters.
So document that Nothing else really matters if that’s your goal. There’s so many things to measure on a homepage. Try to control how much they’re thinking about. Does that help, Stacy?
Yes. Yes. That helps very much. And I will be re re listening to this recording to make sure I get all of that. Okay. Thank you.
DLDR is like trial starts is all that you’re gonna focus them on. Yeah. Cool.
Hey. Yeah. So I have kind of it’s like a mindset strategy question. I’m gonna try and articulate it as best as I can.
So I’m looking at, like, the prioritization matrix, and I’m trying to kind of, like, find my high reward low friction task and, like, the twenty percent of my efforts that generate eighty percent of, like, the revenue. And the things the thing that, like, does the most of me at is podcast, but then like, so speaking on the podcast, it’s it’s my kind of, like, high reward low friction, but then it’s, like, getting on the podcast, then it becomes kind of, like, the question of, like, likelihood of success as well, because it’s like a podcast could potentially be high reward, but then it’s like, I gonna even get on it? Like, how do I get on it? And it’s kind of like so how do you, like, balance thinking about those things, like, the how the how to get to the, like, high reward thing, like, in terms of is that did I yeah.
Yeah. I think so.
It means to me it sounds like it’s, like, of, like, leverage.
The first thing that comes to mind is, like, okay, who is trying to book you on there? Do you have a VA or assistant of some kind pitching for you.
I have a VA that, like, makes a list and that I pitch them.
Can you train the VA to pitch?
I I can. The reason I haven’t is because I posted in, like, the Slack about and, having, like, whether to have my B. I pitch, and then Christie said she wouldn’t even, like, look at, like, a podcast application if it was wasn’t sent by the person.
So that kind of Oh, no.
The video is pretending to be you.
Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. They’re just they’re signed it. They’re sending from your email address a hundred percent. And it’s just like, hey, Abby here. Just a template that they then know how to modify because you’ve taught them. You took an hour to teach them how to do this thing well for you. And steal it from your email address, and that’s it.
Mhmm.
So it’s like thinking about, like, how to automate kind of the steps to the high reward stuff or, like, outsource, minimize friction.
Do you have an SOP for it that your VA can then be trained on? And then when you do, if getting on podcasts is a huge high value win for you, but it’s it’s a slog to get there. It’s a it’s a quantity game a lot of the time. Like how much as you put out there.
Then yeah, outsource that. Send that off. That’s a great thing for your VA to do. It doesn’t take specialized skills.
Not if they have your training, yeah, to do it. So I get the VA on it, but yeah, send from your email address or something that’s a good fake of your email address.
Like AP at instead of Abby at or whatever.
Mhmm.
Cool. Yeah. That makes so much sense. You make it sound so obvious. Of course.
Thank you.
No. No worries. Awesome. Anna.
Hey. I just had a question about the ebook I’m writing right now.
Love it.
So, I think I know the answer to this, but I wanna just confirm. It is fair game to quote any studies that are publicly out there. Right?
What about, like, screenshots of that’s because it’s on pricing page. So can I can I use screenshots or pricing pages that are out there in public right now? Or do I have to, like, seek permission?
Or I think Jessica wants to answer this.
I’m watching your face, Jessica. Oh, no.
I thought you did for, like, the folks that No.
I just I just wanna make sure everybody knows I’m engaged. I don’t Oh, yes. I do know the answer.
You guys publishing for us. So I thought like, oh, you probably have a good take on this.
Yeah.
Yeah. So in my experience, it’s what are you copying or screenshotting and is it proprietary?
So there are some cases where you’re not allowed to use an image without paying a fee for it.
But you usually know those things. Right? A screenshot of someone’s website is it’s a public thing as long as you cite, and I would recommend citing everything about it that it’s copyrighted by X company. The screenshot was taken on this date.
And that’s that’s cool. Then you can do that. It can also be actually a pretty useful way to start promoting your book when the time comes. When you’re like, Hey, I used your page as a great example in my book. It’s coming out. Do you wanna copy of it?
That kind of thing. Right? And then they might say like, oh, I didn’t realize people were just using screenshots of our website. What? And you might be like, oh, fuck.
But, that’s just the conversation that you have at that point, but it doesn’t have to be weird. I no one’s ever run any quotes that, like, when Ann Handley put me in her book, I didn’t find out till someone was like, Joe, you’re in Ann’s book. And same for product led growth. Nobody told me this was gonna happen.
But I would just ended up in there. And I wasn’t like, damn you, Ann. I was like send flowers to Ann. So it’s it’s it’s I wouldn’t worry about it just do what you can to cite where it came from. And wherever possible, only take screenshots of things where you’re gonna tell a good story about it. If it’s, like, a bad thing, mock up a version of it and just remove anything.
Actually, that was gonna be my my next question. So if I just mock up and make a random, like, I could take it a pricing page and and then play around with it on Photoshop and change it up completely. Just to use the bad example.
That’s obviously fine. Right? Because no one’s gonna know where it came from or yeah.
Yeah. And then the reader also likes you a little more. Right? You’re like, look, these are some bad things I’ve seen.
I’m not gonna call anybody out. Everybody means while you, the reader, you mean well. But here’s what are what people are doing wrong. And then you can show, like, mock ups, but not the thing.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Last question.
Does it matter how long the ebook is? So I I I thought I would wrap something up in, like, thirty pages.
Okay.
But it’s it looks like it’s gonna get to, like, seventy pages.
And I’m wondering, like, are people gonna read that or Who is your target?
K. Good question.
So c level execs that will Yeah. Because the whole idea is to build authority and and show that this is a comprehensive thing.
On pricing pages. Right? So someone who gets a hold of it, the impression I want them to get is like, oh, didn’t know there was so much to talk about when it came to Verizon pages. It seems like this person knows this thing.
A hundred percent. Yes. So I just chatted over the title of a book called write useful books, go read it through your kindle, read it right away.
It’s great, but it will make you identify who your target audience is and things like referral referrals that are built into their heads. So it’s gonna be really useful.
Read right useful books as you’re doing this.
Think about that target audience and think about where they’re reading it. I think I’ve talked about this before with April.
With obviously awesome. She was gonna get it traditionally published.
Sorry if I’m repeating it, but it’s really good advice. The traditional publisher was it needs to be sixty thousand words and she’s like, no, I can’t. And the reason was for her was, but I travel on planes and I read books on planes, like that’s when a lot of sea levels in their careers hop on. That’s when they that’s when they read books.
So if that’s the case, then how long is the average flight that a sea level is going to able to read your book. Three or four hours. So you have to make it start to finish in three to four hours, which is like I think it’s something like thirty thousand words at most, knowing that they’re just skimming a lot of it and just like rolling through it.
But, yeah, thirty thousand words, I think is what came out as like the ideal length for a c level to read a book.
Thousand words. Okay. I’ll keep that in mind.
Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Thanks.
And of course, we have love screenshots in there.
It’s gonna go a lot faster. It doesn’t mean you have to take up the whole flight though. Like, if they’re able to finish the book and start writing the email to you that’s like, loved your book, let’s talk. That’s a good thing.
Right? If they can get all that work done on the plane and then walk off and go. Awesome. What’s next?
You know?
Yeah. Got it.
Awesome. Love it. Read write useful books.
Okay. Anybody else?
I do have a couple like brainstorm questions. They’re very low. Like, you probably be like really are you asking me this, but I just wanted to get brain power because we have a lot of that in the room if that’s okay.
Yeah. We do. Yeah. We got eight minutes still. Let’s go.
Okay. I’m trying to think of which one Alright. I’ll go with the second question because I have a feeling your mindset has changed around this a little bit. So I kind of Soft launched my new newsletter called the holiday win and So what I’m wondering is you used to do a lot of free stuff to grow your list, but you’ve recently made comments about not doing that in the books and that. So I’m just wondering how are we feeling about that right now? Any suggestions?
About free content? To grow your email list. Yes.
Right. I mean, our free content’s just different now. Our free content that grows our email list is on Instagram, and with like many chat and boards. Right? That’s really it.
But still, they’re still free. It’s just it’s just different.
I know the the name makes me wanna watch a Hallmark movie though to be very clear.
No. The goal was to rip it off of the old movie.
So that’s Oh, cool.
That’s awesome. Good. Yeah.
Yeah. But give a give it away in your newsletter. The good thing of are you using Substack?
No. So you mentioned something about Substack and then I had to do research on what was the latest drama and then I was like dang it. So do I grow it on there or not?
Feels a little problematic.
Yeah. No. We’ve stopped using Substack too. Yeah.
But I thought if you were okay with it, No.
I saw the research or I looked it up after you mentioned it. You’re ruined my email strategy, Joe. Alright.
We’re ruined mine too.
So the so whatever alternative comes out for sub stack, that doesn’t allow Nazis to be the Nazis on there.
Is, hopefully the next thing to use then just because you can charge for your archives. And if you have good shit you’re giving out, you should be charging for the archive.
So that’s that. But your goal is to grow your list. And if your goal is to grow your list with quality leads, then free is obviously is the is the way to go. It’ll get more people on.
It’s just a question of how quality are those are those leads. But a lot of them are quality just because they’re looking for free out of the gate doesn’t mean they’re ever going to be looking for free. Just wanna make sure you’re not full of crap. Right?
So let’s try you for free and then pay you later.
Yeah. That’s my take. Does anybody else have thoughts on this?
Do you give stuff away free to grow your list? Any tips?
No one wants to talk about it.
I no. I mean, I already have any advice it’s an interesting question, but I I don’t know. I think, I think about the content itself being, yeah, engaging and teaching something. Maybe it’s just a hint of something and you’re not giving anything away. I mean, I’m thinking of the the email the the the the people I’ve subscribed to who I read. And it’s it’s supposed to be people who are into entertaining first.
Maybe, yeah, actually first. And then secondly, teach me stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
James Claire is three two one method, work really well, and there’s another copywriter who somehow I got on this list.
He does three two one for copywriting.
Three examples to something and then one tip or something like that. And it’s a good read.
So, I don’t know, food for thought as you think of the format as well for your newsletter.
Cool. Naomi.
So I want to get more into Go ahead podcast.
And so I was building a list of, podcasts that I thought were relevant And somebody mentioned to me that you that I could probably write a script and just outsource that, have somebody put that together and send an email to all those people. But I was I thought that would be too impersonal that they get a lot of they got a lot of mail looking for guests and that it would make a lot more sense to do it. Like, actually listening to the podcast and mentioning something relevant, So I was wondering what you thought about that. Is that something?
Yeah. Did you hop off for a bit on this call already?
Yeah. I had two during my meeting for the ending.
And then you hop back up. So Abby actually asked the same question, and it was about podcast pitching, how to make it personal, And so, really quick and it’s in the replay if you want more detail, but it really is, documents like a template.
For outreach to these podcasts, and then, teach your VA or somebody that is inexpensive to send these pitch emails from your email address. So it looks like it’s from Naomi. It’s written in the first person. Hi, etcetera.
And they all do the research too. So the VA listens to the podcast or reads the reviews or whatever the whatever the thing is that teach the VA to do and then they have a goal that you give them of like five pitches a day or whatever that goal is that you need for them to to get your name out there. But yeah, it’s an SOP. This is the leverage part of the big sunshine growth model. Of have that SOP with templates associated with it, and then teach a VA to do it. And just make it look personal by personalizing and sending it from naomi at.
Okay.
Great. Awesome. Thanks. Is there another question there?
Are we good? I have one more question. Sorry. It’s another brainstorm one. Okay. So I did do the the win is a hundred million offers.
I flushed out the whole seasonal sale holiday offer thing. So Next the sales page, right? So and now this. So my only thought is I really need to get more people see like going through this process so I can finesse it and I’m getting still a lot of email and I know a lot of that is authority related but to get some quicker like and I get a few seasonal sales and no door.
Yeah. Any suggestions about more of a fast approach to that part?
Like, you’re just trying to get people to test this out on?
Essentially.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s like you said on really no dollar offers. It’s formosa kind of solution here, I would do what he has said to do in that case. Do you have a system?
If you have system, then you post on LinkedIn and say, hey, I’m looking for five companies that meet this criteria to run through my system on the next holiday for free in exchange for me being able to daw to tell the world about this and to take examples away from it. That’s a third thing to do. But just make sure you have it as like system so that you’re not guessing your way through their holiday emails for free.
Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. I’ll do that.
Okay. Fine. Alright. Well, we’re at the end of our time. Thanks, everyone, for your great questions. Nobody shared a win, but I wasn’t gonna harp on that too much. It’s pretty mean about it.
My win is being in CSV. That is a win.
Okay. Awesome. The replay will be available later. Thanks y’all, and we will be following up more on this diagnostic tool as we chat more.
Okay? Okay. Thanks, though. Have a good one. Bye.Today, as you saw in the worksheets, thanks for coming on camera. We’re gonna be talking about a diagnostic tool, and we’ll get into the details of that. As always, we’re gonna kick it off with some training And then, in today’s training though, we’ll be spending some time doing, like, work, based on the training. So expect to, you know, put aside twenty minutes at the end of this to start doing some thinking through what we’re talking about. And then we’ll do the usual AMA.
Always kick it off with a win, please, a win of any kind helps everybody stay motivated and see how many cool things there are to do out there. And then any any question you got, the more specific, the more context you can give the better.
Everybody good.
Good. Alright. We’re recording this. When you ask a question, please do come on camera wherever possible.
Please do be on camera so people can connect with you and see a smiling or whatever face you don’t have to smile no more. Whatever feels right is good. Okay. I am going to share my screen.
Alright. So this is this is cool. This is something that we’ve been working on for a little while.
For freelancing school as well as for people who are going to be joining, copy school pro. And that is a better way to diagnose what you need to work on because a lot of people are looking for road maps. Right? And that’s not just for students.
Your clients also want some form of roadmap. Like, what are you what what are we here for? Where are you gonna take me How do I know it’s the right thing to do? So this tool is a way and you’re gonna come up with your own today.
It’ll be the starting point for your own. This is a tool that helps you across every part of converting and delivering to people and also setting projects. So, You may have questions about this. I don’t think you’re gonna walk out of today’s session going.
I totally get it. I got the right one. It’s perfect. Everything’s amazing. This is gonna be the beginning of starting to think through something that you might work out over the course of the next month.
But here is the idea. So I’m on this.
Why does it say that’s page two? Everything says page two. It’s not. It’s actually four. Sorry.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter. But it’s the general diagnostic template. This page in your worksheet your workbook.
This is the idea here. Hopefully, you’re not on a very small screen.
The, again, the idea here is to figure out what the general three or four parts of what you deliver that is a solution to your client or student as you start to scale to teaching more to their problem what that what that is so you can then go in and say, here’s what you’re missing, here’s what you don’t have to work on, but here’s what do have to work on here is how we can work together. So, for example, I’m gonna show you first of all, like the end. What we’re working toward. Now this is our model. It’s currently called the Sunshine growth model because it looks a little bit like a this is multiple iterations on it that I’ve been playing with, but let me zoom in here and then we can talk specifically about what the hell it even is. Okay.
So someone comes to me and this is based on just years and years of coaching freelance copywriters and particular but also marketing consultants, etcetera.
Someone comes to me and they’re like, Joe, I’m, you know, I’ve plateaued. I would love to get to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars is the most common thing that people say. I’m at about a hundred. I wanna get to two fifty. What’s stopping me?
And so really what I’m hearing is like you’d like to get to about a grand a day of consistent income. And so that could be twenty days of the work month that works out to about two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year or all the days, and that works out to about three hundred sixty thousand dollars a year. So that’s the problem that most people come to me trying to solve until they get to that and they’re like, okay. Now I wanna get to three million.
I got to three sixty. Now I wanna get to three point six. Let’s do that. And that would still come down to a lot of what we’re seeing here.
So this is how it breaks down and then I’m gonna show you how it draws out when we’re talking with people who are considering coming in to copy school professional, and then we’ll talk about what that means for you and for your new clients, leads when you’re having those lead conversations as well as how you deliver on something with clients So this is one way to do it, especially if you have felt scattered. If you felt like there, people come to you for all the things and you know know what to say no to. You never feel really good saying no.
People come to you and they’re all for the same general thing, but they have different problems within that same general thing. And your job is always like a little too custom. You don’t want it to always be custom because then it’s hard to offload things to people. You don’t have the leverage of like, here is how we do this work.
Go do it for me so I can mark up what you do, and get paid for not doing anything other than basically teaching you for you to deliver for me and then I then bill. Let me explain. Okay. So someone comes to me and says, Joe, basically, I wanna make a thousand dollars a day help Cool.
There are four actually five but four key parts that usually their work comes down to. So we can say okay. I can draw this out sharing my iPad as shown in the worksheet and I can say, okay, let’s talk through these four things, your skills, your authority, your money, and that means all things money. Money, not as leverage, but money as pricing.
Are you targeting the right audience? Do you have everything that you need? In order to make that money that you want to. Does your current audience only want to spend a thousand dollars on a single VIP day and then they’ll hit you up every six months for one.
You can’t build a business that way. Right? So and then we talked about leverage. And then what’s keeping you from all of those things too is also mindset mindset or copywriters.
Like for nobody else mindset is like such a challenge. It’s very hard. If you don’t have mindset issues and a lot of people here are working really well through any that you might have and maybe getting to a point where you don’t have mindset issues. Congratulations because that’s again and again. And I’ve said this before in Copyschool Pro. It’s such a big deal.
Getting your head right about your skills, about your authority, about a about your sense of scarcity and money out there. Who would pay me for this? And then leverage getting your head right about people, what it means to hire someone, what it means to document a creative process.
Okay. So we can draw this out. And that’s exactly what we want to do. And I’m going to switch over to, my iPad right away here and show you what we do and what you should be doing when you are going through a diagnosis of how to solve a problem with your clients or leads. Sorry.
Boop. Okay. Really simply what we do and what I’m suggesting that you do and my iPad’s been flipping around a lot today. So hopefully it doesn’t mess it up.
But we draw a circle. It’s allowed to be ugly. It doesn’t have to be perfect. And in the middle, we put our one thousand.
And we’re drawing this and sharing it with them and like talking them through it. Right? And then we have these parts that come out of there and we write in skills and sorry just going through this authority.
Money and leverage, then talk them through that. And this is what you’ll be doing with your own process Right?
So, like, okay. Here’s the problem we wanna solve. Here in the middle, it’s a thousand dollars a day. That’s what we’re aiming toward.
Here are the things that are keeping you pretty much. Think about this for your client. Your clients come to you and they say we want five hundred more paid conversions a month. So you put that in the middle.
Here. Five hundred more paid conversions a month. So you put like five hundred or you turn that into the dollar figure, like each conversion is worth ten dollars. So that’s five thousand.
Okay. Fine. So you put that in the middle and then you talk through the parts that are your process that are like critical to delivering five thousand dollars or those five hundred paid conversions a month. So they’re seeing, okay, you’re walking them through.
There’s skills. There’s authority. There’s money. There’s leverage. In in our case, probably not in yours.
Yours might be research and discovery.
And like the conversion copy writing process or something like that, right? Even if it’s for SAS brands, you might be like, okay, we have, you know, the five parts It’s more of a Pentagon shape and it’s got all five parts of pirate metrics. Let’s say. But let’s let’s focus on this. So here’s what I do.
Get the person who you’re talking to to also write this out. So say, hey, pick up a piece of paper. I want you to draw this with me. So you draw a circle just like this. Yours will be better than mine. I’m not an artist, etcetera.
Write these words from there. You write skills, you write authority, you write money, you write leverage. Great. Cool. Now all I want you to do is write this out and then we’re going to see how you’re doing on all of these points. So we have advanced skills you can sell. We have case studies and proof and we have advanced skills you can use.
So that’s like in this case it might be something more like advanced skills you can sell are am I really, really good at writing long form sales pages. Do I have case studies and proof for long form sales pages? And do I have advanced skills that I can use in my business like setting up a funnel for new leads so that I can sell them long form sales pages? Okay.
So write those down. Don’t do anything with them yet. And then you move on to the next one. Alright.
Next up is authority.
You’ve got your specialization or your niche, and you’ve got thought leadership.
My penmanship is shit. Don’t worry. And then you’ve got things like biz dev, which means everything to do with marketing, pipeline, etcetera. Cool. That’s how we start thinking through your authority.
When it comes to making money, do you have the right audience?
Do you have a standardized offer?
Maybe with a retainer option? Do you have, are you are you charging the right money for the thing that you deliver and the value that it is for your audience. And then we get into leverage and that is SOPs and documentation that is tools and process and that is people. Okay. So we walk them through this, getting them nodding along with us. They can ask questions as you go, and then comes the diagnosis.
This is where you go through and you have them identify if there are different ways to do this. There’s red, yellow, green is really common.
So anybody here yeah. Has probably gone through red, yellow, green. Some people have gone through red, yellow, green with us. So you go through and you say, okay.
On skills. If I was if I was bringing you into coffee school pro. Talk to me about are you red, are you yellow, are you green on advanced skills that you can sell? Do you feel really good about that.
And they can say like, well, I actually think I’m a pretty good copywriter. That’s not the problem. Great. So we’ll call that green.
How about proof? How are you on proof? Do you have good case studies? Yeah. I’ve got great case studies.
Okay. Cool. You’re good there. How about advanced skills you can use? What’s your funnel like?
If I don’t have a funnel okay cool then we’ll call that red and we’ll mark it as such. So you go through and you do that whole process with them and then by the end all you’re going to worry about are the things that are red. So if they’re not good at identifying where the red or yellow, that’s a sign that you probably shouldn’t work with them. If they’re like, we’re bringing on all of this.
Like, this, I’m perfect at all of this, and you’re like, Cool. You don’t need my help, peace, and get the hell out of the room. But if they’re decent at, like, identifying, like, You know, I thought we were green on that, but I think we might be yellow. And I thought we were yellow on that, but I think we might be red.
Then you can start identifying how you’ll work with them. So I’m read on skills I can use and thought leadership, and I’m read on Biz dev. I also don’t have any people. My tools are okay, but I don’t have a single SOP at all.
Great. So now we’re coming up with things where we can say, okay. We’re going to work on are these things. And then from there for your client, you can start saying okay.
We can talk through what we can do across all of these, areas of greatest opportunity build out a roadmap for what a project like that would look like, etcetera. Now this is possibly going to be hard to think through for you right now because this is focused on like coffee school pro. You, however, can do this exact thing for your clients as well, and you should be doing this for your clients. So now I’m going to go back to sharing the worksheet.
I’m just gonna zoom out here.
There.
So you can do the same thing for different stuff. Right? So here on this page, I’ve got a triangle shape that you might have for list offer copy. So let’s say you are working on, you’re in conversion copywriting and you sell sales pages.
That’s your thing. That’s what you wanna do. You wanna be perfect at it. You love it.
You’re gonna be amazing at it. Cool. You know it breaks down into list offer copy. Now the tricky thing with something like this is every part of this has to be something you can work on them with.
So if someone comes to you and says, I need a new sales page. I want it to make a hundred thousand dollars. You’re like, cool. Let’s talk.
Then you draw the triangle, you write lists, offer copy on there and you talk through lead age. Okay? Talk to me about your leads. How old are they?
How many fresh leads do you have? Are you red, green, or yellow on that? And then you color that in for whatever they are. Okay.
Now what about the quality of these leads? Where are they coming from? How are you finding them? Do they have the money?
What do you know about them? And they tell you that. Deliverability. Talk to me about how your emails are going right now.
Are people able to get to your sales page your emails, or is anything even happening there? Are you trying to drive people from Facebook, which is more about lead quality, straight to your sales page and they tell you if they’re red, yellow, or green on those things. You go around and do all of this and that can help you better diagnose not just the current project, but like a a bigger scale project that they’re buying into because they’re the ones who said I’m red on that. And if you can deliver on turning them from red to green, then it can go back through and do the the redo the diagnostic tool all the time, every at the end of each part of your project and be like, okay.
How are we feeling now about our lead age if that was a red and you got them there. Now they’re like, cool. Awesome job getting us to green. That’s amazing.
And you’ve got it documented for exactly what you have done for them.
But critically anything that’s showing in your diagnostic has to be something that you can do. Is where list offer copy can be a little bit tricky if you don’t do list stuff. If you’re like, I don’t attract leads, I can’t do anything for you. Then that’s a problem because they’re gonna walk away and go, oh, okay.
We have to go get some to take care of this, and then we’ll come back and talk to you later, which they might not do. They liked your diagnosis, great. But we wanna keep them here. So you would only break down your process.
This shape that you have into things that you will actually do. And that’s where if you are like, okay, I’m targeting SAS and they do care about pirate metric still, let’s say, not everybody that’s a lot of people have problem with it, but let’s just pretend. Okay. So you break down the five parts of pirate metrics, but you know you don’t do the first you don’t, you know, you don’t do the last one either.
So you would draw a triangle only for those three that you do. Okay. So your shape is dependent on the number of parts that you have here. A triangle is really easy and a circle is really easy.
You can draw a circle. You can break it up into four parts. We’re used seeing paragraphs. We’re used to seeing these sorts of shapes and our brains align with them.
Right? Like yes, if it’s a triangle, it’s a real thing. It’s kind of like rhyme is reason.
Same thing is here. So we could do research strategy writing and experimentation. This is the conversion copy writing process and then you get to say what parts are in here. So if you’re like all I do when it comes to research is jobs and new lead surveys.
I don’t wanna do anything else, then make it your two things. And you can say How are you all for job surveys? When’s the last time you did a jobs to be done, or interviews? When’s the last time you did a a jobs interview?
Set. And they’re like, we’ve never done one. I’m like, cool. You’re right on that new lead surveys.
How are you for that? And you can go through and walk them through this. And by the end, they’re like, shit, you’ve got a process. You have some way of helping me understand what my problem is in a way that nobody else ever has and you drew it for me, which is also a really interesting thing that only a pro is going to do.
I now know that I’m red on five things. I’m green on one thing. So that’s cool. I can take that back to my team and say, oh, we don’t have to worry about this.
Y’all, here are the five things we have to worry about. And when I hire you to do this work, we can then go back and say, okay. How are we now on this? Do you think we’re still red on this?
Are we yellow yet? And so on and so forth? This make sense to everybody?
Yeah.
Alright. Any questions about it?
Probably not yet. What I want you to do is hop into making your own for the people that you want to convert. So again, this is coming down to what’s your red thread or your one thing, what do you do, and try to think about what one thing you wanna sell more than anything.
If it’s like I just want fifty thousand dollar projects that that are like focused on x. I don’t know what that thing is. Or you know what it is. In some cases, I know what it is from talking with you, but for the whole group and anybody watching the replay, I don’t know what it is.
You know what it is. Try to know. If you don’t know, try to know, you’re allowed to build your future. This is what we’re doing.
So just like document the thing that you most wanna sell. I wanna sell fifty thousand dollar engagements that last two months and do these three things with this outcome. Okay, fine. Once you know that, then you can start to say what your process is to get there.
Now, process might not be the right word if you hear a process and you go, I don’t think it’s my process, you’re probably right. There are different ways to go about this. I wanna show you the end what it could look like, how it works, and then it’s up to you to come up with what that diagnostic is, and it can mean thinking through past calls you’ve had with clients and what they’ve shared with you or what you know you’re always delivering what you’re best at. But you definitely wanna think about your one thing and the only thing that you ever wanna sell if possible.
Okay?
Are you good to give this a shot for the next twenty minutes?
Yeah.
Just try it and then we’ll come back and share challenges you had with it or whatever Alright? Twenty minutes on the clock. I’m gonna stop recording. Thanks, Sarah.
Abby, if because it went so quickly, you need to share what you made. Let’s see it.
Okay. Right. Can you see my screen?
Just about yes.
Yeah. Is it tiny? Let me zoom in.
How’s that?
Cool?
Alright. Yes. We can see it. So just to be clear, all four parts of this you can deliver on.
Yeah. Including lead quality.
Yes.
Okay. But we have all the, yeah, part. Is it someone on your team or is it you?
It’s me. So I’m thinking, like, I’m thinking about my course here, but the course is basic. It’s it’s just the DIY version of my done for you offer.
So with the lead quality, the I do Facebook teach Facebook ad testing and then also, like, using thank you paid responses to make sure that you’re, like, bringing in the right people or that the messaging is resonating with the right people. So, yeah. Okay.
Awesome. Okay. So you walk them through this, and did you try, like, try it out because you had all this extra time? Like, did you try kind of pretending that you were walking a lead or even a prospective student through this model.
Yeah. Well, I was thinking, like, is this like your IP? Or are we free to chair this?
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. The idea is that now you go forward in you use it to close people and then deliver.
Yeah. Because I’ve I’ve been, like, running into a problem recently with my course where like, I wanna shift away from, like, the, kinda make money every day messaging and more towards, like, for people who have already tried it and failed, so a more kind of advanced training.
And I think, like, having something like this actually in the webinar would help kind of widen the out so that they can identify, like, all the areas that are gonna be, like, limiting their conversion. So, yeah, so it was, oh, that’s cool. I like it.
Awesome. Yeah. It is a sales tool, and also a, a way of measuring success as you go. Like a sense of progress when most of the time the way we measure these things is like, well, did I?
Is it done or isn’t it? And did I get sales or didn’t I or whatever that like bigger goal is? It’s like, well, no, there’s components along the way. And if we can make those all green, then you’re more likely to get that end goal that you’re looking for.
So, yeah, definitely use it in sales of any kind, webinars sales calls, all of it. Cool. Any questions for any, for Abby from anybody?
No? Alright. Fun. Cool. I will talk more about how to integrate this into the process and like modifying modifying offers and things as as we go.
Anybody else wanna share or chat about what didn’t work? What you’re still working on. Keep in mind, I’ve been working on this for a long time. And, like, I still have tweaks that I’m making and like, full on changes, like mindset was its own thing for a while, then I was like, no, mindset is across all of these things. So, I put it in the middle.
Johnson?
Yeah. I was wondering, because some of the things that I were down I I don’t have a process or a system for, but I I think that areas that I could cover, later as the product is fleshed out, or full of service. What do you have any advice for is that should I try and focus on stuff that I can just do right now or do a separate one that’s what I can do right now and one that’s more sort of future based?
Can it stand well without those parts that you don’t currently do well? Like how feasible is it to cut those parts out and have it still work?
Yeah. Sure. I could probably just merge them to together and do it more generalized because I’m kinda breaking things down maybe a little too far. Yeah. I could do that.
Yeah. If you can pull it, then you’ve you’ll confidently know you can deliver everything showing there. Right? So you wanna be able to obviously have a strong position of confidence in every call that you’re taking any webinar you might be running where you do this kind of thing.
So cut out what you can’t deliver yet, and then maybe just only add it back in when you’ve got somebody in your back pocket who can do that thing for you or when you can do it. Mhmm. Yeah. Cool.
Yeah. Okay. Cool. And then just make sure that the story comes together. Again, most people who you’re going to be showing this to don’t have a better sense for what you’re talking about than you do So whatever you show them is true.
It’s it’s like it’s not necessarily going to open up a whole bunch of skepticism.
So if you leave something off knowing eventually you’re gonna add that thing on, then that’s cool. Right? Cause they’re not thinking way you got this wrong, Johnson, you forgot about this point. Like, they’re thinking like, cool, cool, cool, cool. I’m red on this. Oh, I’m red. Yeah.
So that’s actually super helpful. Yeah. And she’s just like both of these exercises, this one and last week’s one. I found useful, not just for the lows itself, but also in sort of thinking about the areas, that I might be using these things in the future, just the red thread stuff and for developing a new, idea. So, anyway, it’d be cool. Thank you, anyway.
Big it. Love it. That’s cool. Wicked it. Anybody else wanna chat? But what they did.
Can I just ask Joe? Like, do you recommend right?
Do you recommend, the whole drawing it live or having the design. Like, I mean, I love I was also doing it in Canva, like, So bringing it on, bringing it with us, ready to show them, or, doing it on the call.
It’s more engaging when you have something to watch. Right? So if it’s like if you just bring up a model, then I’m reading through it while you’re talking.
If you bring up a blank sheet and you draw it and then you write a word, I’m engaged. Like, I’m waiting for what’s next. Right? So, and that’s what we really want is not for them to jump ahead and think they got it but for you to control that whole flow and then you say and now let’s talk about what you’re red and green on and then you color in red, color it, show them that thing. It’s for me, a horrible penmanship.
Everything’s a mess. But that’s not really the point. Right? They’re watching. They’re not saying like, so why don’t you pay better attention in grade three?
They were teaching you how to like make it look good. They’re just like going with it. Right? And like all they’re interested in is what am I red on?
Oh, what am I green on? Thank god. I’m green, but they’re watching the whole way. So, yes, long story short.
I do recommend that you draw it.
And I also recommend that I didn’t wanna make this like part of today’s session, but find someone in the room here to try this out with where their your perspective client and you hop on a call and you say talk me through this and they’re just pretending. So just like do some role playing then they can do the same for you and you can like work out the kinks of actually presenting it live and new ways to draw it and think about it. Yeah.
Cool.
Cool. Fine.
Anybody else?
I can share mine.
Cool. Yeah.
So typically what I do, even if I don’t have a drawing for it, is I start by looking at the campaign, figuring out which, what keywords they’re targeting, what their campaign looks like, whether it’s on Google or LinkedIn or Facebook, etcetera. And then figuring out what they need to prioritize. So if that’s landing pages, that’s landing pages, it might be the website, the homepage, it might be, the ads, so figuring out exactly what they need to optimize.
Then going through sales calls, sometimes that means going through like g two or Kaptura reviews, and then usually tools.
Sometimes users are testing, but definitely hotjar and Google Analytics. Then figuring out what the best framework is to use.
I I think that defining the persona would also be part of this, although I’m not sure that’s something I would be part of. That’s something I wouldn’t ask them about, because of that would determine, like, is this Are they targeting mid market? Are they targeting enterprise? Are they targeting medium businesses? And within those three categories, which, level of seniority.
But I guess that would fall under research, then actually writing, then usability testing meaning, like, validating the the copy and then finally AB testing.
Cool. It looks great. The only thing I would say is, there are some things on here that are big, like underwriting, you’ve got all those assets. And so if if it’s hard for them to identify what red, yellow, or green, then that’s kind of tricky. So what can you do here even if it comes down to combining strategy and research into one like thinking upfront, right? Like thinking or planning or something like that.
I would just encourage you to break up writing more.
So that because I might look at this and go like, okay. While I suck on CRO prioritization, I’m red on that. I’m green on tools. I’m green on VOC.
I’m probably wrong about being green on VOC, but I say that. Analytics. I don’t know. I have no idea.
Like, why don’t think about it that way? Maybe. Right? So I’m yellow there.
Writing. Well, I have a bunch of those. Let’s call it green.
And that’s the problem. Like, they they might have a bunch of things and think that’s okay.
It just that’s the only thing that stood out to me. That assets little piece of the pie is containing a lot. Can do something to open it up?
Well, the idea being that if they’re, like, the the asset that they would need would depend on what they’re prioritizing. So if their landing pages are leaking leads, then it would be landing pages. If they’re not driving off traffic at the top of the funnel, then it would be ads, And if their maybe their ads are not getting clicked on, then maybe it would be even higher. It would be more like brand awareness, social organic. Kind of work. That’s why I lumped them together.
That’s cool. And then I wonder though, then if you’re really To me, I’m envisioning a sort of triangle now. That’s more like leads or attract.
Convert and, like, retain or refer or revenue or something else. And then you could get into might be strategy in the I don’t know, but to me it feels like yeah. There’s something there, and I think what you’re saying is right. It might just need a different I don’t know. A different shape. Yeah.
I could do that. Because usually the question is, well, where are we leaking weeds or why aren’t we getting enough leaves? Why is our pipeline a mess?
Yeah. Great.
And the question is like, well, how do we figure that out? Because that’s not an easy question to answer.
Not. Not. But if you would dedicate a whole side of a triangle or whatever that final shape is, I don’t know, to leads then you can talk honestly about, like, okay, leads are red, but once we get them to convert them, we’re green on version and then we’re sucky on experimentation or whatever that other part is.
Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. That makes more sense.
Okay. Cool. Love it. That’s great.
Thanks Naomi. Anybody else wanna share or talk or share anything about what they just saw?
Can I share something?
Abby were you commenting?
Or I was just saying that it looked really nice.
Like, it looked it looked very, like, Yeah. Sounds good. Good job. Awesome.
Totally. Stacy, please go ahead.
I I have one that I wanna share that I didn’t do on the call today, but I did in the past. Okay. I just wanna share it because I want somebody to appreciate it.
Nice. It’s messy. Okay. It’s a scorecard.
It’s a scorecard, but the the thing the under and and I love the idea of using in this in a sales call, although everything I do in my universe is structured to avoid me ever have get on a call with anyone.
Okay.
So I set up my three things. I I created the ABCs of superior content, which are audio brand and craft. So those are the three things. And the audience part will, you know, that would involve the voice of customer and interviews, etcetera, understanding the audience, then brand has to do with brand voice, personality, and then Craft is the actual writing of content, which would be combining journalistic writing persuasions, storytelling with subject matter expertise.
So I go through and and and ask them six questions in each of in each of these three areas. So there’s eighteen questions altogether, and then it gives the gives the results in a scorecard and then I use score app, which is a good lead gen processing sort of follow-up thing. Yeah. So I just wanted share because because I’m proud of my scorecard.
That’s cool. I love it, and the ABC is a really nice thing to remember, obviously.
And it could go really nicely in a triangle and you could clearly, like, diagnose how am I on audience, how am I on brands, I don’t remember what the third one was. Sorry. And now it’s Craft. Craft.
That’s the actual writing. Yeah. And it does display. It displays it in that targeted, you know, thing where it scores them on each of the three areas in the in the report that it generates.
Nice. That’s cool. That’s great. Yeah. Even if they, like, diagnosed themselves and then went through the score.
Anyways, it’s cool. It’s cool. Yeah. Love it.
Cool. Anybody else?
We’re good. Okay. Work this out. I do recommend that you like start making it part of your process, you’ll be surprised at how engaging it is for people when they see it drawn out.
You’re talking through and asking them questions, especially if in sales calls, you struggle to like know what to say next. This is like a really clear way to look like you’re a freaking pro and have done this a million even if it’s like your first time doing it live. Just practice with other people in the room. If you don’t have anybody to practice with yet, chances are good.
Someone else doesn’t have anybody to practice with yet too. So, feel free to just chat right now and say, hey, does anybody wanna role play this with me?
And if not, go over in Slack and do it there too, and we’ll we’ll see what happens.
Cool.
Anybody have questions? We’ve got thirty minutes ish left. If you have to go, cool, respect your time. If you have questions to ground, Katie, do you have one?
Yeah. So I’m can you just speak a bit more to, like so we’ve established where they’re red and where they’re yellow and where they’re green?
Am I aiming to then put to, like, can you, take it into the pitch? So, like, am I aiming to put together one proposal that covers, like, first, we’re gonna address the red, and then we’re gonna talk about the yellow, or how do I go into turning that into an offer?
Exactly. Yes. So I think there’s lots of ways you can do it. Right? So whatever is triggering for you, like in your imagination, roll with that but the really yeah the thing that you wanna walk away with is now it’s not just, hey, I need a sales page, but it’s also, hey, I need to get better at this, this, this, and this.
Your project now got bigger. You’re also a consultant. That’s more strategic. Right? So you walk away from there going Here are the four things we need to work on before we even work on writing your sales page.
Let me take this away, put together, some ideas for you. You send me x, y, and z document that I need. So you said you’re strong on research. Send me some so I can look at it. And then we’re gonna hop on a call, and I’ll walk you through my plan for how we can hit all of these things you read on in x period of time that you’ve told me you want this off like the thing that’s in the center of it, the five hundred paid conversions added a month or whatever.
We wanna get there in three months time. But we have to make these red things all green. We’ve agreed on that. You agree that you’re red on these things. So now we’re gonna go forward. I’ll put the other and I’m gonna come back and talk you through that plan. That’s a really, like, clear way for you to now go off and run a project.
Does that make sense? Like here’s my project now and it’s informed not just by what you said you think you need but what I have diagnosed you as really needing.
Yeah. I mean, I see this is super useful because I think I mentioned on our last the last call that I made it to live, like, I just feel like my project ideas are always really big, and I struggle to break them down into components. So this feels really helpful for that.
I guess what I’m taking away from what you’ve just said is like it would be helpful for me to have a sense of the hierarchy of the lights for for lack of better words so that I know, like, if that’s red, obviously, we’re gonna do this first and, and, like, turning that then into a proposal?
Yeah. And it’s sort of a process. So I said the word process, but I know sometimes it won’t feel like a process. So if you’re like, but it’s not a process. Okay. Don’t make it a process. But to me, it is.
To me, it’s like, okay, if it’s list offer that’s an order in which things go. Right? The conversion copywriting process has parts to it.
And so that should also lead to a sort of hierarchy, right, where you’re like, well, we can do everything we want with copy. But if your list is a mess or the people coming to it or wrong. If you’re red on that, no. So we clearly have to solve the the left part of the triangle first, whatever that’s called. I don’t geometry.
But we solve that over there. We solve list.
Then once we’re red once we’re green on those things, then we’ll talk about off for that list. Okay? And then we’ll talk about copies. You can start to see a gantt chart forming of how that project could go.
Like we’re gonna nail list I can’t come up with that live on a call. That’s not your job to come up with it live on a call. Right? You’re like, I’m I’m gonna go away and think about this for you.
You come up with the things you’re gonna do for improved list quality and quantity in x period of time.
Put that on the gantt chart here. What’s we’re gonna do in week one, week two, week three. Then week three, we’re also gonna start working on offer and and week six will be ready to work on copies. Now, you have like this project mapped out.
You’ve also got a built in way to go back and optimize things, right? So you can say we got through list offer copy, the parts of the triangle, red turn to yellow on these things and yellow turn to green, but now let’s go back and do more to further optimize it. So you have the initial project, as well as a map in effect or a retainer to optimize for performance. Does that make sense, Katie, or is that too much?
It makes sense.
I feel like I’m gonna have to revisit my, like, the categories that I’ve throat to make sure that they have a clear Okay.
Flow from one to the next. Okay. Yeah. And know I was just thinking like, well, what if they’re like, well, I don’t wanna work on that first. I wanna work on, like, I don’t I don’t wanna work on my I just wanna work on my sales page or something. I guess then it’s a question of like, do you wanna work with them?
I would say that’s the question and then. If you know list is actually red and they’re like, I don’t care, write the copy.
That’s not what I do. I can the copy will never convert if your list is garbage. Sorry. We gotta nail that and that’s where you have to be able to work on list.
In this case, right? You have to say like, no. I’m gonna nail this for you, then you’re gonna have you might not even need to work on the copy. It might just be a list look.
We’re green across the board on coffee.
So but that’s yeah. You you’re not just diagnosing what they need but are they a good fit for you to work with? They should walk away from this going. Holy shit, Katie.
No one’s ever shown it to us this way. That was great. How do we start nailing through like I had no idea that’s how this worked. That’s like the objective.
And if they don’t do that, they’re probably gonna be pretty tough to work with.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. I know it’s easy for me to say. Like, push away these people who don’t wanna do the first part of the process, but we all already know you. They’re not gonna be a good fit. Yeah.
Stacy, I know you have an AMA and then Abby.
So, my my question is about a project that I’m currently working on. I just did, message frameworks for this client often I work with enterprise companies. So I’m sort of a step removed from being able to get into benchmarking and AB testing and things like that because it’s also siloed off in big companies. In this particular instance, it’s a smaller company. They’re like a twenty million company, and my messaging framework meeting was with the whole c suite of, you know, so I had all four c level people.
So now we’re moving into actually doing a wireframe for the home page. And I’m working with that mostly with the CMO.
So they want to do an AB test against their current homepage with what I create. And so since I’m not used to sort of benchmarking before a project, I wanted to get some feedback on what I might be able to do as far as what what to ask for to establish some ben benchmarks and test against and any any tips about you know, that process because I know you do a lot having to do with the, with data, and it’s just something that I’m usually a step removed from.
Sure. So they are split testing though. Right?
They’re using Yes.
Optimizely or a tool like that.
They well, they they want AB test I haven’t talked to them about the mechanics of how they’re doing it, but I do know they want to split test, driving traffic and, you know, testing their current homepage against a new homepage that I’m writing the copy for.
Right. So understanding how the control is performing is Good. They should be telling you that, right? And then they’ll tell you the, metrics when they tell. Like, here’s here are the KPIs for this page.
It’s a homepage. So it’s likely you’ll need to document things like, amount of traffic coming to it, traffic sources, coming to it as well. If they’re using it as a landing page for Facebook ads and other things like that, It’s a problem. Right? Like, because the test at that point becomes less about a scientific test and more about like a game, where you’ve got traffic coming from weird sources that could have been brought in by any number of ads, etcetera. And they’re landing on this page. They’re so different.
That it’s almost like there are too many variables. I know it’s all in the variable of audience, but it’s so uncontrolled.
That your test is just going to feel fake. So understand where traffic is coming from. Try to get them on board with narrowing it down to their ideal audience. And I know that means organic traffic you can’t do anything about either, but people who are searching and landing on your homepage are likely not look you lose when we’re talking about business. This is SAS. This is a software company?
Or It’s, it is tech.
Yes. It’s it’s tech. So no Because it’s a CDN. It’s a it’s enterprise CDN.
Okay. Cool.
Good. So we can imagine that organic traffic that lands there. Is there by design in some way? So cool. What’s the traffic like that’s coming to it? How are they converting right now? So you need quantity of traffic than like a understanding a qualitative understanding of quality of traffic.
And then you need to know what that existing conversion rate is and what conversion rate means for them is likely going to be clicks. If it’s on the homepage, it’s probably clicks. The question is clicks to where?
We wanna drive sign ups to a a trial sign up for a free account.
Can they sign up for the free account from that page, or do they get driven to another page?
They can sign up on the homepage currently. And they, and and it’s not very focused and it can be much better than it is now.
Okay.
In other words, the homepage is not driving sign ups, and I think it could drive sign ups much more than it does.
Okay. Is there an email address field on the homepage?
That’s like start your trial?
Yes. There is.
Yes. There is. Oh, that’s an existing thing. Cool. You can optimize that. That’s great. So that would be probably number one.
It sounds like your number one goal is trial starts.
Trial starts. Yes.
Okay. So you need to document, know the the control and how it’s doing on trial start but also optimizely, we’ll know that too.
So you don’t you don’t have to write anything down if they’re using the right tool and if you’re all aligned on, what the objective is, like what, how are you going to measure it in a testing platform? You can set up multiple goals, and that’s trickiest part. You don’t want to set up too many goals. Home pages are hard though because things like bounce are gonna be an actual consideration on a homepage.
Try to keep them on task with What is the number one thing that this page is solving for? From a business perspective, why does the business invest money in this homepage. Why is this test a priority right now? And if it is, we wanna get trial starts as soon as they land there, then throw every other way of measuring the page out the door.
Don’t worry about bounce rate. We have to try scary things and some people are gonna bounce. And maybe they won’t. Maybe it’ll hold more people.
We’re not gonna worry about that. All we’re worried about is trial starts. So how does optimizely or whatever tool they use measure trial starts. What can you do in the tool?
Is it just like once they’ve clicked this button successfully or once they’ve landed on the next page is a common way to do that test. Are they landing on a confirmation page for like your trial is now started or landing an app? Which can also be tricky because there’s lots of different ways to land in at from a home page oftentimes. Point being, trial starts is what matters.
So document that Nothing else really matters if that’s your goal. There’s so many things to measure on a homepage. Try to control how much they’re thinking about. Does that help, Stacy?
Yes. Yes. That helps very much. And I will be re re listening to this recording to make sure I get all of that. Okay. Thank you.
DLDR is like trial starts is all that you’re gonna focus them on. Yeah. Cool.
Hey. Yeah. So I have kind of it’s like a mindset strategy question. I’m gonna try and articulate it as best as I can.
So I’m looking at, like, the prioritization matrix, and I’m trying to kind of, like, find my high reward low friction task and, like, the twenty percent of my efforts that generate eighty percent of, like, the revenue. And the things the thing that, like, does the most of me at is podcast, but then like, so speaking on the podcast, it’s it’s my kind of, like, high reward low friction, but then it’s, like, getting on the podcast, then it becomes kind of, like, the question of, like, likelihood of success as well, because it’s like a podcast could potentially be high reward, but then it’s like, I gonna even get on it? Like, how do I get on it? And it’s kind of like so how do you, like, balance thinking about those things, like, the how the how to get to the, like, high reward thing, like, in terms of is that did I yeah.
Yeah. I think so.
It means to me it sounds like it’s, like, of, like, leverage.
The first thing that comes to mind is, like, okay, who is trying to book you on there? Do you have a VA or assistant of some kind pitching for you.
I have a VA that, like, makes a list and that I pitch them.
Can you train the VA to pitch?
I I can. The reason I haven’t is because I posted in, like, the Slack about and, having, like, whether to have my B. I pitch, and then Christie said she wouldn’t even, like, look at, like, a podcast application if it was wasn’t sent by the person.
So that kind of Oh, no.
The video is pretending to be you.
Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. They’re just they’re signed it. They’re sending from your email address a hundred percent. And it’s just like, hey, Abby here. Just a template that they then know how to modify because you’ve taught them. You took an hour to teach them how to do this thing well for you. And steal it from your email address, and that’s it.
Mhmm.
So it’s like thinking about, like, how to automate kind of the steps to the high reward stuff or, like, outsource, minimize friction.
Do you have an SOP for it that your VA can then be trained on? And then when you do, if getting on podcasts is a huge high value win for you, but it’s it’s a slog to get there. It’s a it’s a quantity game a lot of the time. Like how much as you put out there.
Then yeah, outsource that. Send that off. That’s a great thing for your VA to do. It doesn’t take specialized skills.
Not if they have your training, yeah, to do it. So I get the VA on it, but yeah, send from your email address or something that’s a good fake of your email address.
Like AP at instead of Abby at or whatever.
Mhmm.
Cool. Yeah. That makes so much sense. You make it sound so obvious. Of course.
Thank you.
No. No worries. Awesome. Anna.
Hey. I just had a question about the ebook I’m writing right now.
Love it.
So, I think I know the answer to this, but I wanna just confirm. It is fair game to quote any studies that are publicly out there. Right?
What about, like, screenshots of that’s because it’s on pricing page. So can I can I use screenshots or pricing pages that are out there in public right now? Or do I have to, like, seek permission?
Or I think Jessica wants to answer this.
I’m watching your face, Jessica. Oh, no.
I thought you did for, like, the folks that No.
I just I just wanna make sure everybody knows I’m engaged. I don’t Oh, yes. I do know the answer.
You guys publishing for us. So I thought like, oh, you probably have a good take on this.
Yeah.
Yeah. So in my experience, it’s what are you copying or screenshotting and is it proprietary?
So there are some cases where you’re not allowed to use an image without paying a fee for it.
But you usually know those things. Right? A screenshot of someone’s website is it’s a public thing as long as you cite, and I would recommend citing everything about it that it’s copyrighted by X company. The screenshot was taken on this date.
And that’s that’s cool. Then you can do that. It can also be actually a pretty useful way to start promoting your book when the time comes. When you’re like, Hey, I used your page as a great example in my book. It’s coming out. Do you wanna copy of it?
That kind of thing. Right? And then they might say like, oh, I didn’t realize people were just using screenshots of our website. What? And you might be like, oh, fuck.
But, that’s just the conversation that you have at that point, but it doesn’t have to be weird. I no one’s ever run any quotes that, like, when Ann Handley put me in her book, I didn’t find out till someone was like, Joe, you’re in Ann’s book. And same for product led growth. Nobody told me this was gonna happen.
But I would just ended up in there. And I wasn’t like, damn you, Ann. I was like send flowers to Ann. So it’s it’s it’s I wouldn’t worry about it just do what you can to cite where it came from. And wherever possible, only take screenshots of things where you’re gonna tell a good story about it. If it’s, like, a bad thing, mock up a version of it and just remove anything.
Actually, that was gonna be my my next question. So if I just mock up and make a random, like, I could take it a pricing page and and then play around with it on Photoshop and change it up completely. Just to use the bad example.
That’s obviously fine. Right? Because no one’s gonna know where it came from or yeah.
Yeah. And then the reader also likes you a little more. Right? You’re like, look, these are some bad things I’ve seen.
I’m not gonna call anybody out. Everybody means while you, the reader, you mean well. But here’s what are what people are doing wrong. And then you can show, like, mock ups, but not the thing.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Last question.
Does it matter how long the ebook is? So I I I thought I would wrap something up in, like, thirty pages.
Okay.
But it’s it looks like it’s gonna get to, like, seventy pages.
And I’m wondering, like, are people gonna read that or Who is your target?
K. Good question.
So c level execs that will Yeah. Because the whole idea is to build authority and and show that this is a comprehensive thing.
On pricing pages. Right? So someone who gets a hold of it, the impression I want them to get is like, oh, didn’t know there was so much to talk about when it came to Verizon pages. It seems like this person knows this thing.
A hundred percent. Yes. So I just chatted over the title of a book called write useful books, go read it through your kindle, read it right away.
It’s great, but it will make you identify who your target audience is and things like referral referrals that are built into their heads. So it’s gonna be really useful.
Read right useful books as you’re doing this.
Think about that target audience and think about where they’re reading it. I think I’ve talked about this before with April.
With obviously awesome. She was gonna get it traditionally published.
Sorry if I’m repeating it, but it’s really good advice. The traditional publisher was it needs to be sixty thousand words and she’s like, no, I can’t. And the reason was for her was, but I travel on planes and I read books on planes, like that’s when a lot of sea levels in their careers hop on. That’s when they that’s when they read books.
So if that’s the case, then how long is the average flight that a sea level is going to able to read your book. Three or four hours. So you have to make it start to finish in three to four hours, which is like I think it’s something like thirty thousand words at most, knowing that they’re just skimming a lot of it and just like rolling through it.
But, yeah, thirty thousand words, I think is what came out as like the ideal length for a c level to read a book.
Thousand words. Okay. I’ll keep that in mind.
Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Thanks.
And of course, we have love screenshots in there.
It’s gonna go a lot faster. It doesn’t mean you have to take up the whole flight though. Like, if they’re able to finish the book and start writing the email to you that’s like, loved your book, let’s talk. That’s a good thing.
Right? If they can get all that work done on the plane and then walk off and go. Awesome. What’s next?
You know?
Yeah. Got it.
Awesome. Love it. Read write useful books.
Okay. Anybody else?
I do have a couple like brainstorm questions. They’re very low. Like, you probably be like really are you asking me this, but I just wanted to get brain power because we have a lot of that in the room if that’s okay.
Yeah. We do. Yeah. We got eight minutes still. Let’s go.
Okay. I’m trying to think of which one Alright. I’ll go with the second question because I have a feeling your mindset has changed around this a little bit. So I kind of Soft launched my new newsletter called the holiday win and So what I’m wondering is you used to do a lot of free stuff to grow your list, but you’ve recently made comments about not doing that in the books and that. So I’m just wondering how are we feeling about that right now? Any suggestions?
About free content? To grow your email list. Yes.
Right. I mean, our free content’s just different now. Our free content that grows our email list is on Instagram, and with like many chat and boards. Right? That’s really it.
But still, they’re still free. It’s just it’s just different.
I know the the name makes me wanna watch a Hallmark movie though to be very clear.
No. The goal was to rip it off of the old movie.
So that’s Oh, cool.
That’s awesome. Good. Yeah.
Yeah. But give a give it away in your newsletter. The good thing of are you using Substack?
No. So you mentioned something about Substack and then I had to do research on what was the latest drama and then I was like dang it. So do I grow it on there or not?
Feels a little problematic.
Yeah. No. We’ve stopped using Substack too. Yeah.
But I thought if you were okay with it, No.
I saw the research or I looked it up after you mentioned it. You’re ruined my email strategy, Joe. Alright.
We’re ruined mine too.
So the so whatever alternative comes out for sub stack, that doesn’t allow Nazis to be the Nazis on there.
Is, hopefully the next thing to use then just because you can charge for your archives. And if you have good shit you’re giving out, you should be charging for the archive.
So that’s that. But your goal is to grow your list. And if your goal is to grow your list with quality leads, then free is obviously is the is the way to go. It’ll get more people on.
It’s just a question of how quality are those are those leads. But a lot of them are quality just because they’re looking for free out of the gate doesn’t mean they’re ever going to be looking for free. Just wanna make sure you’re not full of crap. Right?
So let’s try you for free and then pay you later.
Yeah. That’s my take. Does anybody else have thoughts on this?
Do you give stuff away free to grow your list? Any tips?
No one wants to talk about it.
I no. I mean, I already have any advice it’s an interesting question, but I I don’t know. I think, I think about the content itself being, yeah, engaging and teaching something. Maybe it’s just a hint of something and you’re not giving anything away. I mean, I’m thinking of the the email the the the the people I’ve subscribed to who I read. And it’s it’s supposed to be people who are into entertaining first.
Maybe, yeah, actually first. And then secondly, teach me stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
James Claire is three two one method, work really well, and there’s another copywriter who somehow I got on this list.
He does three two one for copywriting.
Three examples to something and then one tip or something like that. And it’s a good read.
So, I don’t know, food for thought as you think of the format as well for your newsletter.
Cool. Naomi.
So I want to get more into Go ahead podcast.
And so I was building a list of, podcasts that I thought were relevant And somebody mentioned to me that you that I could probably write a script and just outsource that, have somebody put that together and send an email to all those people. But I was I thought that would be too impersonal that they get a lot of they got a lot of mail looking for guests and that it would make a lot more sense to do it. Like, actually listening to the podcast and mentioning something relevant, So I was wondering what you thought about that. Is that something?
Yeah. Did you hop off for a bit on this call already?
Yeah. I had two during my meeting for the ending.
And then you hop back up. So Abby actually asked the same question, and it was about podcast pitching, how to make it personal, And so, really quick and it’s in the replay if you want more detail, but it really is, documents like a template.
For outreach to these podcasts, and then, teach your VA or somebody that is inexpensive to send these pitch emails from your email address. So it looks like it’s from Naomi. It’s written in the first person. Hi, etcetera.
And they all do the research too. So the VA listens to the podcast or reads the reviews or whatever the whatever the thing is that teach the VA to do and then they have a goal that you give them of like five pitches a day or whatever that goal is that you need for them to to get your name out there. But yeah, it’s an SOP. This is the leverage part of the big sunshine growth model. Of have that SOP with templates associated with it, and then teach a VA to do it. And just make it look personal by personalizing and sending it from naomi at.
Okay.
Great. Awesome. Thanks. Is there another question there?
Are we good? I have one more question. Sorry. It’s another brainstorm one. Okay. So I did do the the win is a hundred million offers.
I flushed out the whole seasonal sale holiday offer thing. So Next the sales page, right? So and now this. So my only thought is I really need to get more people see like going through this process so I can finesse it and I’m getting still a lot of email and I know a lot of that is authority related but to get some quicker like and I get a few seasonal sales and no door.
Yeah. Any suggestions about more of a fast approach to that part?
Like, you’re just trying to get people to test this out on?
Essentially.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s like you said on really no dollar offers. It’s formosa kind of solution here, I would do what he has said to do in that case. Do you have a system?
If you have system, then you post on LinkedIn and say, hey, I’m looking for five companies that meet this criteria to run through my system on the next holiday for free in exchange for me being able to daw to tell the world about this and to take examples away from it. That’s a third thing to do. But just make sure you have it as like system so that you’re not guessing your way through their holiday emails for free.
Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. I’ll do that.
Okay. Fine. Alright. Well, we’re at the end of our time. Thanks, everyone, for your great questions. Nobody shared a win, but I wasn’t gonna harp on that too much. It’s pretty mean about it.
My win is being in CSV. That is a win.
Okay. Awesome. The replay will be available later. Thanks y’all, and we will be following up more on this diagnostic tool as we chat more.
Okay? Okay. Thanks, though. Have a good one. Bye.