Tag: february 2024

The High-Class Problem Sell

Transcript

Today is, copywriting lesson, and then that’s followed an AMA that will go until we’re just done talking.

There’s a small group of us today, so no need to, maybe it’s just like a good time if you have, like, something you’re going through that you maybe didn’t want to share with more people or something, which I know happens.

It could be a good time to talk through that today too. So, as usual, be ready to bring any questions that you got any wins to preface them, and that can be any kind of win, just celebrating those good things that happen. This is being recorded. The worksheet for today’s session already went out that went out on Friday. It is the high class problem sell, which I’m really excited about. We’ve used it a couple times. And then I’ll show you the one example for a new page in progress that we’re working on, and how we use it there.

But as usual, yeah, just kind of be with me here, set your intention, just be present, closing down other distractions. If you can, I know life is real and all around us, but, whatever you can do to just kind of ignore your phone for a bit and other, you know, notifications that come in?

Yeah, everybody’s feeling cool. I’m I’m feeling really good today. Awesome. Okay. So open up that work If you haven’t already, got it open.

I will only share my screen if you don’t know what worksheet I’m talking about. Because what I’m going to do today is, a little different format that we’re trying for our training now which so far I quite like, but I’ve never done it live. And I have never done it one live, two unsupported by somebody on my team who can, like, talk and fill in the gaps while I’m like, oh, no. The text’s broken. So we’re just gonna try it here today, and see what happens.

But yeah. So the context for this is, you’ve got. I mean, we have so many ways to try to get into stories, into the argument that we wanna make when we’re writing copy.

Lots of different things that you can do but sometimes when it comes down to it and you’re actually writing the page or writing the email, I find that things can feel boring and repetitive pretty fast, not for your right not for your reader necessarily, but for you as a copywriter, I mean, we do data driven things and use better practices and frameworks, etcetera, but it can be tedious sometimes when it’s like a rule of three. So you’re always hitting three points in a row and it’s just like, kinda wanna break out of it. So that’s how I feel about it. The longer you write copy, the more likely you are to feel that way too.

If if this isn’t resonating, stick around. It’s going to eventually. So I like finding and identifying, and I’m sure you do too, identifying little new ways to attack parts of pages in particular. So what I’m gonna show you today is from a long form sales page, I first saw it on someone else’s long form sales page.

I wanna say a bazillion years ago, but it could have been last year. It all blends into one now. And I was really I was really interested it. So I kinda broke it apart and tried to reverse engineer what they were doing.

Tried it in a sales email for our freelancing school, promotion over the Black Friday weekend.

And, yeah, I’m feeling kinda cool about how it could be an unlock for you when you’re stuck. So, I’m going to share Just half a second while I choose the right one.

Okay.

Cool. So you should be seeing my iPad now.

Oh, are you?

Yeah.

Fancy.

I’ve just never shared my iPad before. So, but this is where we’re going to be working today. So This is an example of the opening of that that sales page that we’re working on for copy school pro. So you set up a big promise, like big.

The bigger, the better, and it doesn’t have to be a promise necessarily as in we promise you’ll get this. But something that’s really going to grab their tension. So really thinking about your audience and what they’re trying, what they most want. And that’s where on the worksheet, we have the, what’s really good about this is I can use three monitors now, which is cool.

We’ve got good outcome and then a high class problem. So we often talk about the good outcomes that people have. And these are good outcomes. These here are good outcomes that you might be looking for.

Right? It’s not a promise because it’s in the first person in quotation marks, which, of course, as anybody who has taken any of my training knows, unless I feel like I’m saying it all the time, but maybe I’m not, first person headlines in quotation marks are my favorite across the board. So how I, big thing, big thing, big thing, ending with the big thing, and then and then overcoming an objection right here.

But don’t you need a lot of money that, etcetera. So with the fifty thousand dollar ad budget, which is basically nothing. Okay. So we’re capturing their attention.

I’m not this doesn’t mean it’s ADA. I know as soon as I hear its attention, doesn’t mean it’s ADA. It might be though. But we’re gonna break it really fast.

So don’t try to look too hard for a framework here yet. Okay. Then we get into kind of something a little bit old school. So that is this.

Step one is opening up this idea that there will be something that follows later, a step two. So a small, not curiosity gap, but like an open loop. Right? There’s more to come.

This is just the first step, even if you forget that later. The point is not that you’re waiting around for step two, but it’s an interesting way to start, opening up that attention into something more kind of like a little more intrigue.

Re time, really old school. You don’t have to do any of this stuff for the framework that I’m teaching you or the cell that I’m teaching you today to work. I’m just walking you through kind of the decisions that were made here.

From the desk of, again, old school. I do like old school, founder of copy hackers, grader of copy school, inventor of conversion copywriting, and this is an important thing, mother of kittens, just because what we’re about to get into, we need to set a tone. So far, the tone is kind of bro y. Right? Like, look at all the, you know, money you can make and crap like that. And that can feel a little bit weird.

The tone can be a little bit. We have to make what I’m trying to do here is set it up so that we can have a little bit of fun going forward because this framework, as I’ve used it, has been about tapping into, like, a little bit of fun. The high class problem cell is, like, we’re going to talk about some high class problems And if you make it sound like a problem, that’s not gonna work. Right? Like, that’s the bad thing we don’t want to do.

Okay. So I’m just gonna pop over to the next one. So then we get into the next part of the page.

So we set set up this big cool thing that you can do. Oh, Sorry here. Let me just go back to this. So it opens with so I’m guessing this isn’t the first time you’ve landed on this isn’t the first page you’ve landed on with big promises and enticing numbers.

And I’ll get to that in a second, but let me ask you a question. Do you actually want to? And this really means you could have put almost anything before this part. So I’ll get to that in a second is like, again, you could have done anything before that.

Accept what follows here in these bullets that are about to follow down here is we’re basically building on that cool outcome. So let’s say your cool outcome that you’re trying to hook somebody with is you’re gonna land a thousand customers in a month. You’re gonna land a thousand thousand dollar customers in a month. Really big, really desirable thing that they want that would, attract their attention.

And then from there, we’re going to find that less desirable outcome of that thing, the high class problem. So again, it could be anything to open.

But we want the bullets that follow the good outcomes and then the high class problems, to speak to that thing that just hooked them. So we have, and I’ll get to that in a second, but let me ask you a question. Do you actually want to? Then we have good outcome, Deliver World class copy.

Number one thing. It’s gonna be short in, like, actual length because we’re trying to pull them in. So a short bullet most of the sentences are short at this point. As you can see, they all end here.

Make lots of money for your clients or team and also for yourself good outcome. Cool. And now we start getting into the high class problems associated with those good outcomes, and we spend more time on them because we’re having more fun with it. We’re just kind of like enjoying our time talking to our prospect about the things they want being frankly as we’re about to see similar to the things that, we want.

So do you actually want to have super smart people ping you late at night when they’ve needed, when they need to crack a conversion problem when you become their go to copywriter? That’s a high class problem. You just got a ping in the middle of the night, but it’s pretty solid because someone cool is asking you for help and they trust you a lot. Do you really want to?

Do you actually want to go through life with a sense of guilt that everything is falling into your lap and you haven’t had to toil in the coal mine or perform open heart surgery after building years of schooling to get it? Wanna get so good at selling products that jealous people begin whispering about you and you have to start hanging out with a whole new crew of high achieving nerds? These are high class problems. And the reality is your prospect should want them.

Right? So then we say great. Then you and I want the same things, and then you continue on telling the rest of the story and still building on the stuff that you did. Although I can’t help you with another high class problem, which is the anxiety that overachievement brings or an outcome of a high class problem recommend a marriage counselor for when you spend half your summer texting with a network of smart people who’ve sought you and your genius out.

I can do these things, and then you get into what those things are, and that’s what we’re really here to talk about. But you’re capturing their tension with this like unexpected outcome.

And it’s not just the usual good news, good news, good news, life is always gonna get better as you get better and the levels are higher. Life is like way better. There’s real problems that are gonna come with it, but we’re not positioning them as problem problems. Just as a high class problem. Does this make sense?

Can you imagine how you might use this in your work?

Potentially? Okay. Cool.

So I’ll stop sharing that part and then just quickly walk through the worksheet.

So that you’ve got it. Okay. So the high class problems sell, as always, the worksheet and lesson will help you find a new way into writing about comes so that new way in particularly if you’re bored, but also if you just wanna try something else. Write sales emails or sales pages with that What you wanna do is list out your good outcomes and then the high class problem that comes with it. And this is the framework effectively, bit of a template for you to use. Cool.

Have what you need to use it. Alright. I’m not gonna make you. We can go through and do an exercise if you’d like to try it out. Otherwise, we can just kind of hop into question time or talking time.

Good talking time. Does anybody have any questions they wanna bring to the table today?

Everyone’s quiet.

Do you wanna do this as an exercise?

Go right for something? Okay. I think that’s a good use of time. So what I would love for you to do if you have a productized service, if you have a package of some kind, anything that you already have pre written copy for. So ideally not for a new campaign or something.

Anything that you might have on your site today or that you wish you had on your site today?

I would like you to take the next ten minutes to come up with the good outcomes and the high class problems and then try to fill this part in.

Doable?

Okay. Cool. I’m gonna stop sharing.

And then be sure to come off mute if you have any questions as going through it, and we’ll be back in ten minutes.

Joe, can I ask a quick question?

Love it. Yes.

I’m really I really struggle with ten saying. Right? It’s just my thing.

Like, am I am I writing it, like, in the future terms as or, like, am I writing it as if it’s happening or so it’s do you actually want to in the future?

Yes. So do you actually want to but it’s still written in the present tense. Deliver, not will deliver. So deliver world class copy. Do you actually want to And then it’ll just follow in, I guess, the imperative, really, because it’s just two. Does that make sense?

Yeah. It’s just my noob thing. Like, this is why I can’t write fiction because I struggle with Ted’s sake. That no.

That’s like Latin. Did you take Latin in school?

No.

Oh, okay. That messed me up for some things. So when I when people struggle with these things, I’m like, oh, you probably took Latin. So yeah, this is just like, do you actually want to, and then these are all just present tense. Do you want to have a call that sort of thing. Right? Just happening right now.

Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Jay. Sure.

Alright. Should we talk about that’s how to go?

Any luck?

Did it suck? Was it awesome? Is it hard? Did you get anywhere?

That was fun. I liked it.

Okay. What’d you work on, Abby?

I did for my day one evergreen package.

And, yeah, what I like about it is because, I find myself, like, using the same kind of messaging it with different clients like this kind of like, you can make more money. You can make six figures, and it’s starting to feel, like, quite stale. So I like the the high problem approach is a farmer around that, and I feel like it really boosts credibility because you’re not just saying, like, this is how awesome, like, life is. It’s like. Yeah. Yeah, take them out. So, yeah, I really enjoyed it.

Okay. Cool. That’s wicked. That’s how I feel about it too. Like, it’s just a more interesting way to position of good outcome?

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Everybody else needs them any anything that didn’t feel that good or, like, you’re not it’s not clicking.

It wouldn’t work for you maybe.

I like that it’s very fresh, but it feels a little bit it feels a little bit exaggerated to me.

It feels a little bit Oh, yeah.

It’s on the sales. Page.

It’s gonna be a little. I hear you there. So what would you what how would you modify it?

Any idea?

Well, I mean, the the goals that I have are are more immediate goals. But the tone feels a little bit of still feels a little bit much even though the actual things I’m writing about are realistic.

Okay. Can you read yours and just share so we can hear what that sounds like?

Yeah. So I am looking at the, the service page I have for, PVC.

So Google Landing Pages and, social ads. So I wrote do you actually want to watch your pipeline fill up with qualified leads effortlessly?

Capture all of the great top of funnel demand your social media. Is generating, become so efficient at attracting new leads that AEs are so overwhelmed with demos that they tell you to slow down the campaign so they can focus on the lead they have and attract so many good opportunities that you actually cringe when influencers cry about pmax ridiculously broad, broad campaigns, and Google’s ever changing algorithm on LinkedIn over and over again.

But the tone, the tone still feels off to me even though those are like very realistic. Things.

Okay. What feels off to you? I guess I wonder as, like, for me, I I heard it and I was like, cool. That sounds dope. That sounds like Yeah. Who wouldn’t react well to that?

Some won’t. Some won’t. But usually, those are the people who are just like I I won’t I won’t think about those ones as much as the people who are like, yeah, I’d like to have that problem, you know, and you’re like really getting there, but how did everybody else feel when you were hearing it?

Any notes for Naomi?

I thought it was really cool. I liked it. Yeah. I didn’t feel like the tone was off. I mean, obviously, I don’t know what you’re going for, like, generally with your tone, but, yeah, I thought it was cool.

Okay. Yeah.

I didn’t feel like the tone pull up either, but yeah, again, same as Abby, but the tone didn’t seem like off to me for off footing.

And I know it can feel like a certain audience, your audience, Naomi, wouldn’t respond well to that, and you may absolutely be right. I would just be curious to test it out, give it a shot, see if they do.

Yeah.

Cool. Awesome. Anyone else wanna share?

Yeah. I’ll share mine. I’ll be. I’ll be able to get feedback on it. Okay. Cool.

It’s a bit it’s obviously a bad fish drop. Okay.

But let me ask you a question. Do you actually want to wake up to sales every day, automate your entire sales process? Miss out on the I mean, Rausch, you usually get when you get a sales notification because it happens so darn frequently that the sensible thing to do is to turn stripe notifications off altogether.

Stop having those indulgent. Ugh, it’s just so stressful conversations with fellow course creators because you’ve hopped off the live launch roller coaster and are now making launch size revenue while on vacation.

Having awkward tail between your legs conversation with your SSO when they ask why you spent twenty k on ads this month and you have to loan that you turned that twenty k into two hundred and twenty k, and now you’d like to buy a vacation rental five minutes down the road from the end loss.

It’s fun. That’s fun. Those are some high class problems to have to have that awkward conversation anyway.

I just can’t relate to the last point about moving close to your in laws. But other than that, it was so infuriating that you’re that good at writing copy that quickly, which I always tell you that.

That’s awesome. Yeah. It really does it was what I liked was. It was so great about qualifying who she’s speaking to. It’s ridiculous.

I mean, if you can’t relate to that, you’re gone and Yeah.

It’s a good side effect. Right? Like, all of these other outcomes of that. That’s really a really good point.

Yeah. Thanks, Jessica.

And you can tell you had fun writing it. It doesn’t sound like it was a slog or you, like, it gets I think it’s exciting. Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that it’s, like, it’s a fun framework to use. It’s, like, nice to to deviate from, like, the usual, like, I just always use PAS.

So Yes. Same. Yeah. Cool. Anyone else wanna share? Jessica?

Yeah. Let me follow Abby.

Jessica.

No. I honestly I mean, I could It was for my seasonal sale thing, which I think you know I’m fleshing out to turn from a what used to be a productized service like thing to a signature.

So I and actually I get I don’t know if this is I think where I struggle is the whole dream state because I feel like I haven’t confirmed this desire for a e commerce client yet. That they really see the connection between. No. No. You can really double your, you can increase your sales for your seasonal sale. But at the same time, you can be creating these long term relationships.

And so it kind of I think that’s where I struggle. So, I mean, I can read you parts of it, but it you know, it’s nowhere near what Abby’s is and it’s partial as per usual with me. Jessica.

Read the whole m thing.

We wanna hear get to that.

Do you actually want to double your next seasonal sale revenue? See a massive increase in LTV over the next? Whatever months, clear out your inventory and have to work quickly with your team to figure shit out. Provide on-site therapy because your team dressing out and worried they can’t get orders out on time, which will inevitably lead to unhappy customers.

And that’s as far as I got.

Cool.

Took a little extra negative on the last one there. It wouldn’t pull back on that one a bit, but no. It was good.

It’s yeah. Just make sure it stays a high class problem. Like Okay. Well, yeah. Like, my diamond shoes are too tight. That’s gotta be the effect. Right?

So yeah.

Okay.

Cool. Cool. Love it. Jessica, you did that so fast. Really?

Oh, thank you. I’m always asking I’m begging Abby for tutorials on how to be fast. That’s what I wanna know.

You just did it.

Nice.

Nice. Cool. Anyone else?

I won’t put you on the spot by calling on you, but I’m probably looking at you.

No one.

Alright. Alright, Katie. Welcome to the crew. You just missed the the tutorial there, but you’ll get the replay after. So I think it I think we had fun with it.

So yeah. Now, if anybody has any questions or wants to talk shop, what are you going through right now? What should you be working on that you’re not that we can help, like, unlock? Jillian.

Okay. I have well, I’ll start with a win. It’s not a money win. I guess I shared that in Slack recently, but my current win is that, I’ve been severely low in iron for like my whole life and didn’t know it.

So I was like this year I’ve been like fainting and like feeling really dizzy and I’m finally back a normal iron level. So it means I can exercise again, which is life changing. So I wasn’t really able to exercise this past year. But it really helps with, like, energy and productivity.

And it’s really Yes. Exciting. So I was going to use it in Doing a lot of stuff.

Congrats. That’s amazing. Yes.

So that’s why I win.

Coming with a little more energy.

Huge. Energy is everything. Yes.

Everything. Yeah.

So on that note, my question is maybe a bit unwieldy, but as I mentioned, I’m like I was going through your training again from a couple weeks ago.

Started watching Shane’s training.

And I’m thinking about, like, the brand also reading PenX is easier than two x, and so I just feel like I have a lot of ideas. Swirling and kinda wanted to like throw them out there and just like get some thoughts.

So I’m focusing on pricing pages, which is a new, you know, I haven’t worked in SaaS that much. I worked with a lot of different companies on websites, a little bit of SaaS that like kind of across the board. So I’m trying to figure out how to balance, like, my current client, and so I do websites with who are not SaaS primarily, and still have, like, my website is geared towards that. I kinda wanna put up a different website so that I can still serve my current customers in the meantime and not be like out money and just, you know, diving into this new thing. Yeah. So the idea that I have is, like, I know you said the brand really starts with, like, your opinion and your viewpoint, which I feel like I’m still developing, but I have, like, a general idea since no one’s really talking about pricing pages yet, which is that like everyone’s kinda missing the point. Of the pricing page, like, they’re all doing it wrong, basically.

And that’s, like, very general. There’s more that goes into it, but the the name that I have or the idea for, like, a book and a podcast and maybe, like, my site, I’m wondering if they can all be the same, is, like, the pricing point. I’m talking about how I don’t know if that’s, like, even a good title or not, but that’s the idea that I’ve been working with. Okay.

Just like, yeah, talking about how everyone’s missing the point, and like they’re all treating it like, you know, they’re putting so much time into their other pages and optimizing, and then they get to the pricing point and it’s just like they get to the pricing page and everything just deflates. Like, that’s the point of the sale, and it’s like, you know, very matter of fact. Here’s the even big brands, like even huge companies they look at are doing this. I think they’re all kinda dropping the ball at that point.

When it should be like the height of excitement value and, like, it’s the most critical point. Yeah. Absolutely. I know it’s a big I’m like rambling now, but, like, I’m just wondering if, like, Should I go in this direction? Because I’m, like, wanting to start doing this stuff, but I just, like, wanna know if that makes sense if it’s, like, on the right track to start with.

Okay.

I’ll jump in first and anybody who would like to add anything.

I’m so happy that you’re doing this, Jillian. Like, I know I’ve expressed that to you, but men, there’s nothing but room out there for this. And it’s it’s like, that’s it’s the money page. Right? Like, it seems like such an easy sell once you start raising awareness for the problem.

Sounds like you understand what your point of view is. I know you said it’s developing, but it’s like y’all are doing it wrong. Like, that’s a good place to start. Right?

Especially since it’s, like such a blue ocean still. There’s not that much competition out there. So I think it’s safe to go with something big like you’re doing it all wrong. Like, full stop.

That’s it. Like, you’re I’m you’re gonna need a lot of help, and I can help you with that. It leaves a lot of room for you to have thought leadership, and to say contrary in things or to, like, make them aware of things that they hadn’t had any clue about, which is always good for, you know, likes on so and comments and things like that. So the pricing point, how did you get to that name?

I don’t know. How do we get to anything?

There. I think it like came to me first. I also thought the URL was available. Also it kind of like ties into this whole thing of like like maybe I can say what the point is. Like, everyone’s missing the point. Like, they think the point is this, but the point is really this.

And also, like, Yeah. I don’t know. That was kind of the the main. And it seemed like kinda short and Yes. It’s not gonna be a subhead.

Like, if it was a book, there’d be like a subhead of I don’t know what that is yet, but Yep.

Totally agree. Yeah.

Yeah.

I think great. And it does, like Jessica chatted out.

Leaves a lot of room for expansion.

Yeah, and you can speak to value, like, what the actual point of pricing is. Right? And those are bigger conversations that are really intriguing. Yeah.

Everyone loves it.

Yeah.

Who else wants to share thoughts with Jillian?

Can I can I offer a, perspective? Sure.

When it comes to SAS, you should keep in mind that there are a lot of very complicated SaaS products that don’t have a pricing page because a lot of that happens in sales negotiation.

Because a lot of times they have to customize the software to fit the solution.

And it doesn’t necessarily have to be like a fifty thousand dollar software product. It happens at lower pricing points too, and a lot of companies choose not to put pricing anywhere on the website because either they’ve tested it or they believe that adding the pricing will increase the, or will reduce conversion rate, regardless of whether that’s true or not. That’s what a lot of companies think. And it may be true on desktop versus mobile or the reverse.

So I would make I think that it would be worth while to expand the conversation, they use because they they usually have a plans page that just doesn’t have pricing on it and it goes through like what you would get with the enterprise suite versus the mid tier versus the small, mini business tier. So I would make sure to not leave them out of the conversation.

Because there are a lot of companies that fit into that category, and your point can still be relevant. It would just have to be adapted to a much more business mindset.

Well, and I think that that’s a fair point. I think it does speak to the need to just identify who that audience is.

I think the SaaS that you’re talking about, Jillian, are people who have Who have.

Have a debt that says pricing in the nav of which there are bajillion so versus people who have sales teams. So we’re talking more people who are product led growth and are likely to have pricing pages at some point that they, and usually, visitor facing ones, and then behind the scenes.

Post use post activation ones. Yeah. Is that accurate, Jillian?

Yeah. That makes that makes sense. But, yeah, it’s a great point, Naomi.

Thanks for thanks for Yeah.

There’s a huge market. SaaS is enormous, obviously.

So it’s just really identifying. Okay. These are although it can be useful to get the enterprises that don’t have pricing pages, it’s just like anybody who doesn’t have copy. It’s really I can’t do much for you.

Like, you’re gonna need to believe in copy or else. It’s like, I can’t sell you copy school, and you can’t sell a person without a pricing page. Pricing page insights. So cool.

Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Anybody else wanna share?

With Jillian or feedback on what Jillian’s working on.

Nope. Awesome.

Jillian, you feeling good?

Yeah. I love that.

It’s like a book cover.

Yeah. And it gives it fine to have, like, you know, a, like, a book, like, if it was a book and a podcast, and, like, even the site, like, just have it all have the same name, like, even where I’m selling my services, keep the same name for everything.

That’s I mean, g n Claire did that with forget the funnel. Yeah. Everything is forget the funnel.

And I mean, juries out. It’s they’re doing, like, a bad ass business. So I would say it’s probably, like, a good Studiesing that story brand, same thing.

Mhmm.

Yeah. So probably okay. A thing to overthink at least.

Okay. I well, I got the URL for it, so I think it’ll just, like, start and I can keep my current site, like, with my current customers.

And kind of start doing the new thing at the new place.

Yeah. Totally. Totally. Cool.

Oh, thanks everyone.

Thanks. Thanks for sharing a nice win.

Excellent. Life changing.

I mean, energy for real though. Like, I have a new energy going with some life changes that I’ve made too, and it’s like energy. It’s a good thing. It changes everything. So that’s cool.

Anybody else wanna share what they’re working on or going through or struggles? Esther Grace.

Hey. Can everyone hear me?

Yep.

Okay. Awesome. So a win. I shared this in channel already, but copy hack is closed. Still excited about that.

Well done.

Thank you. And okay. So I need help with lead generation.

So I’ve nailed down my ideal clients, my customer avatar, all of that.

My offer, even a bit of the delivery system, But right now, I really just want to get on more sales calls.

So I realized last week that I love sales calls. So I did resales calls in the past two weeks. And just those three made me feel so energized about my business. I’m like, this is awesome.

Like, I love talking to these people and selling them on what I on what I do. So where I am right now is I’m also, like, couple of us here. I’m also reading ten x is easier than two x. So I’m not creating any plans to just gradually increase revenue from year to year.

Like, this was one of the thing, Joe, I think you talked about during the CSP info session. About want to be a copywriter who’s gradually increasing revenue from year to year and then in five, ten years before you hit, like, five hundred k. You want to be the one that just ten x is essentially. So that’s kind of where my mindset is now.

It’s more of how do I get this new offer, this new system that I’m building to generate one m in revenue in the next twelve months. And I actually ran the numbers, and I realized it’s actually very possible.

Okay.

It would just take, like, two clients with a high retainer fee and a performance based assistance.

It’s email marketing, so I can do performance basis as well and track everything. So it would literally say two clients if I was going to work on it solo. But if I was building a small team, then I can take on even more. So just running those numbers made me realize how possible it is for me. And so now it’s just like, okay. How do I get on those sales calls to book those two major clients that are going to bring in the revenue.

So what are you doing for lead gen right now? What’s top on your list?

So right now, I’ve been doing a lot of warm outreach. So just people I know asking for referrals, The the that has been my most active lead gen method. So it’s like being in groups, responding to messages, networking, pretty much.

Thought about cold outreach because I’m also still doing my authority building, like, systems. I’m still doing all of that, but I’m like, okay. I still want to get those leads, like, in the next one thirty days, thirty, sixty days. So I’m trying to do some more active, outreach methods as well. So that’s pretty much where I am.

Okay. So how many people are you reaching out to? A day for the warm leads. Let’s pause cold. We’ll ask that next, but warm leads, how many a day?

About two a day. K.

Do you think that’s enough?

About ten people.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so it’s a numbers game. Right? Like, There’s the two. There’s several ways you can go about this. One part is authority building stuff with content that you put out there all the time and then bigger content, and that can feel like a long game. It doesn’t have to be, but it also is a long game too.

Then we’re talking warm leads and cold outreach. So outreach to warm and outreach to cold. It’s good to do both.

But the more you have to do a lot of Right? Like, this is you’re reaching out to people, and you have to hit them right and at the right moment. So It’s a numbers game. So if you’re just doing two a day, what’s stopping you from doing twenty a day?

Oh, so the warm outreach, I just don’t know that many people.

That’s what you think. You don’t know that many people. But I would say really, like, think through everybody that you know and that they know. And I know that can feel like, oh, aren’t I getting in people’s way? I mean, you’re an entrepreneur and this is part of the job. If if your goal is get more leads in because you wanna get to a million dollars a year.

You have got to earn what you want, and that’s how you earn it. It’s hard. It’s hard, but you pick up the phone or you send the email, and but you have to do a lot of it, like, a lot a lot.

Like, an uncomfortable amount. And this is where some people, when they have, like, partners, and they’re both invested in it. That can, like, you spread the job out across two people, which is why a lot of people end up building companies together because it’s a lot of quantity, quantity, quantity, and then there’s the cold outreach. And it’s a doable thing.

People do it all the time. Don’t do it. That’s because I didn’t have to do it. But if I had to do it, it would be a matter of, like, go a hundred a day.

And this is like figure out, you’ve said you’ve you’ve run the numbers. So if What’s your close rate right now? Do you happen to know what it is when you get someone on a call? How many people close out of ten?

So I haven’t had that many sales calls.

That’s the problem with Okay.

Yeah. That was right. Yeah.

So getting in leads, so you wanna make sure that you’re getting these leads into a sales process that isn’t just going to, like, burn up all of these people that you spoke with. But you’re energized about them when you actually get to talk to them and have that sales call.

Make sure you’re running that right. So we have that Huka, sales call training this Wednesday, attend it. Take notes. It’s smart.

And it’s an hour to fucking nail this stuff. So attend that.

And then it’s if you’re gonna do leads, cold outreach and warm, the numbers game, get up every morning, put it in your calendar, do it when you have energy, do the hard thing, personalize the cold stuff, obvious we’ve got that training in copy school dot copy hackers dot com.

But it’s it’s an because it’s a numbers game, if you get one and one hundred people to hop on a call with you.

You gotta, like, that’s why you have to do. A hundred of them a day. You can’t do two a day. It’s not gonna lead to anything except for frustration.

And you’re like, nothing works. No. It it can work, but it’s you have to do Does that make sense? So what I would like you to do is put together, like, a list of warm outreach and cold that you can do, like, give yourself a a to do list of every single day.

I’m going to reach out to five people I know and fifty people I don’t know every morning without fail. And if you can get in that habit, which you have to get. This is your job. You have to get in that habit.

Then you can start to see the needle move, and then you’ll be more inspired to go like, okay. Well, if I’m doing fifty cold outreach, cold attempts a day, And it’s bringing in four people.

If I double it to a hundred, now I’ve got eight, and that’s a lot better to deal with, and you’re gonna get so much better at cold outreach that you can outsource it to a VA because you’ll have it nailed down what to say, how to say it, how to get people onto that call, how to get them to show up, Like, all these reps, all this practice work is the stuff that’ll get you there. But two reps, and you expect you’re gonna, like, build muscle, I lifted the weight twice.

It’s gonna take a little more than that. But you’re doing it. Just do more of it.

Yeah.

And would you see those are the, like, two main, like, lead gen strategies? Or is there anything I’m missing besides those two of an authority?

Oh, yeah.

No. There’s more. It depends if you have money to spend. If you’ve got money to spend, there’s lots of other things you can do. And it doesn’t have to be a lot, but you have to have, like, fifty bucks a day to spend boost things to hire people to do the work for you, stuff like that. I would say start there. Start getting traction.

There. Your immediate network is the place to go first. The people you know that you’re just not thinking of how to really go after them, and then it’s follow-up. As well without saying the word follow-up.

Like, it’s it’s, hey, I talked to my cousin who has a skin care who works at a skin care company. I talked to her one time about it. Okay. Well, now you have to go back and talk to her again.

And again, and wear her down. She’s your cousin. She’s gotta give you work, and that’s just the way it is.

But really it’s like quantity.

More and more and more if you’re still trying to build up leads. If you had and I sit and still do all your authority building stuff as to grace, you’re, like, all of these things work together. Have you read hundred million dollar leads by Hormoza?

That’s next on my list. Yeah.

I was planning to read It’s really practical, like super practical.

And it comes with a bit of a course as well. So check that out, but it really will come down to quantity. Yeah. Cool. Anybody got any notes? For Esther Grace based on what you have done to get leads.

In person networking, going to things. But, like, every single thing you do, you need to do intentionally. Like, I know people who have gone to networking events and they kinda just stand at a table.

It’s like, no. No. No. No. No. You have to work it. You gotta, like, get in there and say hi.

And like, have a pitch ready to go, like, be able to open. So there’s opening and then there’s closing. Right? And so a lot of people suck at the open part.

Maybe you’re okay with closing, but all we’re talking about to get leads is like constantly opening.

So being able to go to a networking event event that’s possible and and do the open. Be ready to start asking questions about their business and Sounds like you’re working on x, y, or z. I do that too. Do you think would it make sense for us to have a talk about this?

Like, should we book a call? Like, be ready to to get moving on something, not just like, oh, cool. And, like, falling into the friend zone, which can happen a lot. So just, like, everything you do, be intentional about what you’re gonna do with it.

Katie also said the five day five k challenge. Totally. It’s, it’s still available.

Yes. So take that too, but don’t just do it once a month. Do it every five days. Yeah. Cool.

Jessica, do you wanna say that out loud?

I was just gonna say Abby wrote a blog post and did a tutorial on utilizing Facebook groups And I know she, of course, has had huge success with it, but I know other people have too applying what she taught. So I don’t know if where your audience is, but can’t hurt.

Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely.

Love it.

I think I’ve read the post op yet.

I think I told you about it.

Yeah. Yeah. There’s the her tutorial is, pinned to the top of our YouTube channel right now over on. On YouTube. So check it out.

It’s great. Perfect. Okay. Good luck, Esther Grace. Set a goal too. How many warm, how many cold, you’re gonna do a day, and how many you need to get in booked calls every week.

And then post, follow-up in slack when you get those wins, just let people know, like, and my goal was four bookings this week, and I got five. And, like, make that happen. You can. Cool.

Anybody else have anything else? Thanks, Esther Grace. Any questions or anything you wanna share with others?

Hi. One question. Yeah.

Well, I have lots of questions, but, I will start with the most relevant one. So I was approached by a, sorry, I spoke in an event, about a few weeks ago. And so afterwards I was approached by a marketing agency, and it seemed I really feel like marketing agencies are an ideal source, an ideal client because They’re focused specifically on demand gen. They don’t have to answer to a CMO or to upper leadership quite in the same way that somebody who works in house would.

And they’re very data driven. And they tend not to be creatives. So they tend not to provide as much pushback, as somebody who works in house. So anyway, I had a call with the, with a guy again today, and we agreed on a to start with, like, a social ad, for more top of funnel work.

And what I ended up doing this time around, which is different than what I did last time around, last time around, I sold a company just like a bank of ours. And this time, I gave him a pricing page and I said, okay, a set of ads is this much, and a landing page is this much, And then so I’m gonna send him a proposal. We’ll sign the proposal, and then he can just add whatever he needs as he goes, and then at the end of the month, I’ll send the invoice to HR to accounts receivable, and then I’ll be able to bill them. But I’m wondering there’s anything I because I feel like this is such an ideal client, if there’s something I’m missing out on that I could be doing to make it easier for them or to increase the amount that they would get from me from the beginning and that initial conversation.

Whether that’s like, should I expect them to say, oh, well, you should get at least this amount, to increase the amount that they would get from me, or would that be a little bit too aggressive because they sort of get projects rolling in as they come? I’m not sure exactly.

What they’re working on, it could be a little bit too demanding for them right at the outset. So I’m wondering if there’s something I’m missing out on that I should have done and could do hopefully next time.

Yeah. Cool. Who’s working with agencies? Who has been through what Naomi’s going through? Nobody subcontracts?

I used to, but I’ve just always do it on a day. Right? So I can’t I don’t really know how to haven’t got anything to give. I’m afraid.

So what did you do? Why did you choose to do a day rate or why did they like a day rate? What was the reasoning there?

Well, actually, now that I think about it, I don’t think I told them it was a date. Right? I think I just priced it in my mind. It was, like, lead gen like, I’ve done a few. I did for a lead gen funnel.

Oh, like a lead gen agency, like, a few emails and stuff for a, SaaS company. So I’d yeah. I was like, oh, I’ll just it was always gonna be, like, fifteen hundred or whatever, for the emails. But in my head, I was like, okay. I’m booking myself for VIP to do those. And then I did the same thing with, like, course agency as well.

But, yeah, that’s I mean, that’s just because at the time, I really liked the IP days.

Yeah. Okay. That’s fair. But they responded well to it as a day rate. Did you did they ever know it was a day rate? Did you tell them that?

I don’t even think so. I just, like, they just didn’t really seem to care. They were just like, okay, like, we need you to do this. What does it cost? And that was kind of it.

Yeah. Okay.

But, like, every time they need like, did you work with them multiple times? And every time they needed you, they booked a day rate.

No. They just said, can you do these, emails or whatever? And I was like, yeah, sure. And then booked myself in as, like, a day and build them the same.

So I was just kinda like, if I I would always say yes. I was just at a time in my life where if I was, I would be happy to give up a Sunday for, like, the extra money. So I’ll just be like, sure. Yeah.

I’ll do it.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I’m wondering about I’ll go ahead, Naomi.

The difference in these kind of agencies are specifically working on Google and social. They’re demand gen agencies, or or it’s usually either Google, or Google and social or LinkedIn.

So it could be like the ads aren’t working. It’s time to refresh the or we want to start a new campaign for this specific persona, or we have a new ABM approach that we want to do, and so we need copy but they don’t necessarily know when they’re gonna need those ads or when they’re gonna want to improve the landing page because it depends on how the campaign performs. And so there’s a level of unpredictability, and which is good to have work rolling in. Like a lot for most of my clients, I’ll have work coming in on a rolling basis.

And I think that having something that’s not connected to ours is definitely more efficient, but I I don’t think that possible to be efficient to the point where I can say like, okay, I can do this within a day.

Yeah. No. I mean, I know, like, some summer, she used to do, like, credits. I think, like, someone was talking about this in Slack today, but, so she would have, like, kind of a menu of what each credit can buy, and then the credits roll over if they weren’t used in, like, the month. So it was kind of like a retainer y type thing.

So she’d get paid, like, every month they’d buy, like, two credits or whatever.

So they would have to commit to a certain number of credits?

Yeah. Yeah. But then they could rush. She would let them roll over So if they only used one, she’d be like, okay, that’s fine. We can use it next month. If next month, you have, like, more clients. So that kept the client happy, but also had that kind of security of a retainer for her.

Yeah. I mean, to me, it’s kind of tricky because every time you work for an agency and they have multiple clients, you have to learn new things about each client in order to write for them. Right? So it’s like you’re taking on a new client every time. Even if you redo and you work for the same client effectively a month later, whatever.

But it’s still it’s a lot of, like, learning time.

Have you experienced that Naomi?

That it is.

I’m, like, Yeah. This is the first agency that I’ve Oh, okay.

Okay. Cool. So and that’s where it’s tricky with credits. We had our credit based agency years ago called Snap that Leanna and James now have.

And it was it was good in some ways, but you do have to spend time thus spend a credit on, like, learning a thing. Like, what’s the what is this product?

And so that has to be baked in, and that’s where I really like the VIP day.

Because it’s like I can do all sorts of things. In that time. I can, like, and if it’s really important to them, I guess I’m just worried, Naomi when you say you, like, you would sell them a landing page.

It’s fine. It’s doable.

It’s, how are the margins though? Like, the reason that I rarely recommend sub tracing to an agency is you just don’t make as much money because they’re charging what you would charge, and now they have to make a profit on you. Yeah.

No. They’re they’re giving me work. They’re the client.

Yeah. But they’re an agency, a demand gen agency that pays that gets paid by their clients.

Yeah.

They’re an agency. Yes.

But I’m not doing the subcontracting contracting.

There’s subcontracting to them. They’re they’re so the client has the contract with them, and they have a contract with you.

Right. So I’m the subcontractor.

Yeah. So you’re the subcontractor. Exactly. Okay. And so every new contract down is, like, losing money losing money losing money lose.

So if you have a subcontract you’re gonna pay them half of what you would charge, and the agency is gonna pay half of what they’re gonna charge at best on a good day. Because they also have overhead and all sorts of other expenses. So if they’re charging it’s probably if it’s demand gen, their performance base, they’re on retainer with the client, it possibly getting a percentage of how things perform depending on who the client is. Okay?

So if they’re making, let’s say, they’re making, they’re billing their client ten thousand dollars a month for services.

They, as a business, need to make a profit to continue to exist.

So they’re trying to get three thousand dollars off that. That leaves them with seven thousand dollars a month to spend on resources for that client. They have their own people that they’re paying and all of the expenses that go along with shipping something out, taking someone to lunch, whatever that other crap is too. And then comes money for the subcontractor.

That’s you. So that’s where I hear subcontracting, or work for an agency as a subcontractor. And, I don’t love it because you have to really optimize your time because you’re not gonna be able to make that much. As much money as you could if you were direct to the client. If you were like, I can do that for you instead and here’s what I charge.

And so that’s it. So how can you if you’ve got three thousand dollars that you might make off them in a month for that one client, let’s say, what can you do to ensure that you are maximizing the amount of money you get for the time you put in. Obviously, it’s all it’s always our game.

And that’s where a VIP day sounds like really good. You could charge two thousand dollars. They can budget that in easily for their differing clients. And as they’re planning on what to do next month with their clients and new clients they take on, they’re like, okay.

Well, Naomi can write a landing page in a day. If you can. Naomi can do, analysis in a day. So we always have to book for every client every month.

We need Naomi two days for each client. So we’re going to budget in four thousand dollars when we’re estimating something with clients. Right now, you have to figure out what they’re estimating with clients right now because of their thinking and have you it sounds like you haven’t talked to them about what you’re what you cost or have you?

Yeah. Give them a pricing sheet.

Okay. So you what what does your pricing sheet? What do you have on it, Naomi? What does it say?

I have an add landing page web copy.

I think I added research can bring it up.

Yeah. It’s like a it’s like a menu.

Yeah.

I made it very simple because, I I figured selling hours was just not going to be sustainable so I Yeah.

Figured this would be a good solution, but I didn’t over complicate it.

Yeah. It’s good not over comp of course. That’s great. And a rate sheet can be a good thing to share.

But if the objective is to make good money off them, on an ongoing basis.

So what’s wrong do you think is broken with giving them the rate sheet right now? What’s not working there?

It’s I I would say it’s more that I would like a more long term commitment, where if it’s just going to be, if it’s going to be like five to ten thousand chat, three to five thousand dollars a month.

Like, that would be good to have it, like, rolling in to have them on retainer.

If it’s gonna be just like a few like a thousand dollars here, maybe a few hundred dollars there, then it’s not going to be efficient. Yeah. But if they’re a marketing agency, then they’re gonna do this on a long term basis. And because tech is in such a bad place right now, more and more and more companies are choosing to outsource a lot of their marketing. So it’s also just practical because they’re trying to cut down on people in house.

Yeah. Yeah. There’s that. So okay. So all you’re really looking to do is set up a retainer with your this agency and then make sure that you aren’t working non got for them. Like, you’re having good boundaries around your retainer. Is that right?

Yeah.

So make sure that the effort that I put in to learning about each company pays off in the long run by not having to acquire new clients.

That meaning that is a long term relationship that is worthwhile because it’s not just like a couple hundred dollars here and there.

Yeah. Totally it. So what’s stopping you from having a conversation with them or have you had that conversation? I think if you gave them a rate sheet, you probably haven’t had the conversation then about, here’s what I would love to get out of this relationship.

Here’s the problem that I’ll solve for you. All of them but here’s the only way that that could work and here’s how great it’ll be when it does work. So the here’s the only way that will work part is I have to learn about all of your clients. Like, that’s that’s real work.

It’s if you had a salesperson, they would have to learn about all of those clients too. So understanding that. And by the way, I’m your scalable online sales person. So I need to learn everything about them.

I need this these engagements to go on. And you also need these engagements to go on. You need, you know, all of the reasons that they don’t wanna just, like, swap in and out crappy freelancers and just, like, have somebody that they love etcetera, etcetera. So the whole conversation, and then you tell them that you want a need and they need.

You position it as what is the best solution for them, a retainer minimum of six months for each client. Is that what you think it is for each client?

So each client that they have, if they have five clients, you have five different retainers with them, or you have one big retainer that covers everything.

See, I think, yeah, I think it would be too aggressive to say that I have five retainers with each of your clients. That’s fair.

Yeah. So it’s like one pool that they get to draw from. For their various clients.

Mhmm. That’s what you want. Is that right? Like a like a bucket. You’re the bucket every week. Yeah.

Because when I went into they were like sort of sold on me. They were like, how do we start? And I thought what I was gonna do was like I’ll just have you pay via credit card for the first project, and then we’ll open up a proposal. But then he was like, oh, well, actually we’d rather just be paid by invoice because that’s how we just manage everything. And so now I was like, oh, well I’ll send you a proposal. And then I thought, like, oh, well, I should have had the conversation that I was expecting to have afterwards, because I thought that they were just gonna pay via credit card who were like, oh, we just want one ad.

But I wasn’t because I thought that that would be a good way in and then afterwards, I’d be like, oh, I’d love to build a more long term relationship with you, because I can’t say like, well, we just wanna have a long term relationship on the star. That’s a little bit.

A little bit much.

So Is it?

I guess I wonder why would it be? If they’re pre sold on you, Why would it be too much to say, like, cool y’all.

Here’s how I work. And then say it’s like, you’re an agency and really, like, help them understand why the best thing to do is put you on retainer.

Know you mentioned the word aggressive a couple times, but to me, it’s only aggressive if you’re, like, if your tone is aggressive about it. Otherwise, it’s just They have a problem to solve. And you know demand gen agencies have it’s constant, test everything, and they need they need you to come up with hundred add variations in a day. So there’s going to be just lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots.

There’s a big numbers game too. Right? So So if you know the demand for what you have is real, then you can solve that. Who else are they gonna hire who can do as good a job as you can. Yeah.

No. Like, they they they got that. They were they were convinced that I was their that I was their person. But also for my sake, like how do I price that?

How do I price in testing and landing pages and ads on a rolling basis with all of these other things and potentially add variations, and then maybe nothing because the campaign is working, Yeah. That’s why I didn’t push it right away. Like Yeah. We could figure that we should have a, like a trial almost.

Yeah. I’m I I I to me, it sounds like I don’t think that the trial is a necessary thing, but I wasn’t in the conversations you’re in, obviously.

To me, it sounds like, okay. You just need to protect your time, but give them a lot of things that they need. Typically, I have not seen and I don’t know if your experience is different. Naomi, but when a campaign is going well, nobody sits back.

Like, now we’re, like, it’s just more. Like, oh, it’s going great. We can do even more. Or let’s shift you over to new client now where the campaign isn’t going as well and where we need your resources over there.

So for me, I hear this If they’re a big enough agency that you think they actually have money to spend on you, if they have a real need for copywriting services, conversion copywriting in particular, if that’s what’s going on and they already like you, but you don’t want to sell your life to them. Of course not, but you wanna be able give them a menu of services without them having to go through and pick and choose one and, like, call you up for one ad at a time. You know, because that’s not how this works. Why not sell them?

Can you sell them?

I don’t know if it has to be a specific day or whatever whatever that looks like. But to me, why not charge x amount for a retainer? This is what it costs to hire you. Say this is what it costs to hire me. And that’s it. And if they’re, like, that’s too expensive, well, then one that you you probably should have, like, spent more time in the sales process to make it so that they understand the value you can bring or two, they might not have ever been a good fit to begin with.

But I wouldn’t worry that it’s too aggressive to say it’s five thousand bucks a month for a retainer to retain me. You’ll get x many hours with that or better for you to have, like, outputs that gives you either a package of a hundred ads for one cloud, whatever. Like, you figured that out because you had the conversation with them. But you say this is the amount five thousand, ten thousand, whatever it might be. And it’s a minimum of six months.

I I don’t know. Is is there you would be wrong with that?

You wouldn’t you would skip the trial entirely and say these are my for all agencies.

I don’t know what the trial solves.

Well, I mean, it also might be budgeting constraints on their side. Like, he may love me, but he had to get the green light from their CFO because the CFO needs to green light everything these days.

For sure.

So other ways until proven yourself.

And I I think like proving yourself is something that I wouldn’t say you should ever even let in the conversation.

Nobody nobody who has proven themselves ever again says I have to prove myself. So to me, it sounds like, oh, I need to prove myself, is the thing that you say when you know that that’s not that common to be able to prove yourself. So it’s kind of a signal. Don’t say. Robin from your vocab.

Prove me fine. He needs to accrue my value.

And I get it, like, to see the level to the rest of the team because he’s not in charge of the the bank account.

There are a totally. And there are other ways to get the CFO to sign off on things. Right? It’s not necessarily going to be a trial.

It could be hey, if once you lock in six months, you automatically get ten percent off for the entire six month thing, which I don’t love discounting, but CFOs love discounting. So if you’re trying to say, get that CFO picturing this person who’s just trying to make sure that profits are great. What’s the solution for them? A trial Could be it. Don’t get me wrong, Naomi. It could be a trial thing. I just don’t know that that’s that’s a chance for them to go.

Was she perfect?

And it’s like, well, no. Nobody would be.

Rather, hey, I’m badass. You already like work that I do, you already need the job done.

What’s, like, the only thing that’s really gotta move you forward is getting the CFO happy So here’s what we do. And if if you sign on for six months, you get ten percent. If you sign on for twelve months, you get fifteen percent off. And now the CFO has something to work with. And everybody knows you can cancel any time, and the the lawyers will cover the contract with, like, after thirty thirty days notice to to cancel the contract, etcetera.

Yeah, I don’t I considering I already agreed to a trial for this specific agency, it would make more sense to say like Okay, like, send time a, send time a proposal with just like the price list that I have, and then say, okay, work with that, and then like, see how that goes, and then say, look, I have a limited availability if you want to get me on the books, then you can either then hear the packages I have for agencies.

Otherwise I Can I see the guarantee availability?

Yeah.

Or should I, like, call them up tomorrow and be like, oh, actually I wanna change everything and No.

If you’re already down the path. What I just don’t wanna do is have you become a commodity for this agency. That’s all. It’s just I want everybody in this room to go into every call in a power position. That’s that’s it. Like, that’s where we I don’t.

I don’t think I’m a commodity.

I I Oh, no.

I just a menu list is a commodity. That’s the thing. So it requires that you have a good, context for it. That’s all. So Naomi, if you’re already down that path, Cool.

Really the is the question then if you’re doing this trial, how do you lock them into something that’s profitable for you? After the trial ends. Is that what we’re looking for?

Yes. For this one specifically.

Yeah.

And I I guess for all of them because, like, I I also would not wanna commit to a tend to a huge retainer without having any sense of what to expect from somebody who’s relatively new at running a business.

Yeah. Justin. Definitely. Yeah.

Is that okay? Go for it.

Yeah. So I’ve been, speaking with Adri Yedlyn, he’s been, like, sharing a bit of, like, Blair. Is pricing strategy, and I it’s just so curious to me. And I wonder if it could work here.

So basically, offering pricing tiers, but doing it by the likelihood of success. So you’ve got the so the first one is basically your, like, champagne popping kind of retainer. Like, it’s like ten hair month you’d be, like, over the moon if you got it, and they get, like, x, y, and zed in it. And then your middle one is the one that you’re happy that’s the one you’re going for, like, the five k and it includes, like, this amount of deliverables it’s capped here.

And then your like lowest likelihood of success, which is one that’s meant to be like the best value for your time. So like a VIP day or something that you can and I wonder if you could do something like that presented in them like that. And then for the trial, do, like, a month under the kind of care that they want. So rather than doing, like, a trial is, like, an or something, be like, okay.

You wanna go for this option. Let’s try it, see how it goes, see if we need to, like, increase scope or decreased scope. And then, yeah, it was just a a thought.

No. I think it’s I think it’s a great idea I would love, in theory, I love it, but measuring success.

Well, it’s not like to increase the likelihood of success.

You’re gonna do, like, way more voice of customer research.

You’re is gonna include a lot more of that stuff.

Whereas when I’m working for agencies, don’t do any of that. Like, I don’t do that great job, to be honest, because they don’t, you know, they’re not paying me, like, the amount to go and interview their customers. So I’m like, okay, I’ll do your sales agent like, I’ll do it in a day. Like, and I don’t think of it as, like, good sustainable income. I treat it like a cash injection, like, just those, you know, when it’s opportunity to get a bit a bit of extra cash. If you wanted to yeah.

What was that about Revshare?

No.

I I thought that you were saying, like, like, if they Oh, like, no.

No. No. No.

No. It then performs well then.

Yeah. Yeah. No. It’s just like this is what I’ll do too. If you want the maximum chance of success, we’re gonna go for the, like, all in option if you Yeah.

Not etcetera.

Yeah. That could be a good way to go. Have you read Naomi pricing creativity?

Blaren’s.

No. It’s it’s got he’s got a bunch of books. But that’s it’s good. It’s very helpful, for something like this.

Yeah. So you’ve got the trial.

It’s really hard to say how to come up with, but I love Abby your ideas there with, like, you I can give you the full service everything every month for every client, or I can you could buy the VIP day, one a month or something, but at least a VIP day can keep you locked in contained and people don’t expect that they can reach out to you anytime, whereas a block of hours, I could reach out to you for one hour hypothetically on a Thursday and expect you to get back to me. The problem with trials, just as a side note, trials are good for systems. If this was a system that you were selling to them, then the trial would prove out the system or not, but the work we do is so custom.

It’s so specific to what’s going on in the market with the audience with the product. The offer with medium, all of it. That it’s very difficult for a trial to perform because the work we do often doesn’t perform until you’ve had a few takes at it. And you were able to go like, oh, that hypothesis was wrong, but look where it led us.

And then you can go along and get better and better and better. And that where, like, the payoff is with a really good copyright. That’s why agencies that’s why the agency you’re talking to doesn’t sign up for month to month. Because that would that does it doesn’t work.

It doesn’t work until you’ve committed to doing something, and trying a whole bunch of different things. I know for certain that demand gen agencies don’t do month to month.

So any any good ones at least don’t. So That’s my only pause for you going forward with trials. If it’s a system, it’s easy not to trial out. If it’s a human engagement, it’s very hard to trial.

And maybe go for a VIP day.

As like the easiest way in and then from there, they can start to look in to bring you in on projects and other things.

Yeah.

That’s my take.

I’ve done a bunch of VIP days with, a couple agencies too, and I feel like it’s a good, like like what Joe said, you don’t want them to be like, oh, we did an hour here and there or two hours for this. It’s like, it’s a contained main time. And I’ve had an easy time, like, selling those.

Sorry.

My biggest concern with the IP days is really the creative component because so much of what in in more performance based mediums the design is such a big part of it that I really have to work very, very closely with the designer to make sure that they follow, like, conversion CRO principles and UX principles, the way that I would like them to.

So I’d be worried that the VIP day, like, oh, oops, the designer isn’t available. You have come back on Monday and finish up for us. So that’s that’s really my biggest concern with VIP Day. Do you have that issue?

I haven’t had that issue because I’m working and like working on different kinds of things, but it sounds like if if that is a thing, even if it’s not a VIP day, is that still going to be annoying schedule if they’re like, oh, hey, the designer’s not available today. Like, is it still gonna be like they’re kinda calling the shots and they’re like, oh, actually, let’s You know, does that make sense? Or does it have the IP plan out? Sure. But even if it’s not a VIP day, they stop the plan ahead and be like, this is when the designer’s available. Right? So whether it’s a VIP day or not, you have to to expect for your schedule.

Right?

Yeah. Like, you don’t pay for that premium, like, then they’re not paying, like, that’s the fact that you work, like, on UX for the designer, like, that’s that’s more value really than a VIP days for, I would think. So that’s where, like, if you were to offer the different options. It’s like the more expensive option is the one where, like, you’re gonna collaborate a bit more with their team and they’re gonna pay, like, the premium for that.

Yeah.

And it’s two VIP days maybe, right, where you get in a flow of VIP day one is you doing the work VIP day too is you doing the checks over how it’s been implemented and then making any changes accordingly.

If that’s a real if that’s a real problem or the other side is, it’s an agency. It’s a subcontract.

Sometimes you just have to be okay with stepping back. You hand over the copy doc. You give all the best direction you can do. The designer is going to do do what the designer is going to do, though. And so, unless you work directly with them very often, and can establish a relationship there. It can be tough to get a designer to do what the subcontracted copywriter wants them to do.

Yeah. Doesn’t mean it’s impossible. It’s just like, do you pick your battles here and just like, is If if working with agencies was your full business model and that’s what you were doing going forward, then we could come up with different things here. But my hope and prayer is that it is not so that we can get you, like, scoring big ass projects and competing with that very agency, not necessarily demand gen. But, depending on what you what you want to do, of course, that’s the goal is not to keep. I is that is that in line, or do you want to keep working with agencies in the long term?

Well, I want to work with demand gen professionals because that’s really my area of expertise. So if they are in an agency, maybe that would work. If they’re in house, great. But Yeah. If they’re in house, maybe they already have a team of copywriters that they they they work with, or they have very strict brand principles, and they don’t wanna outsource anything.

So, like, is there a sweet spot?

Yeah. Working with in host demand gen.

Twenty twenty one.

I have worked with in host demand gen, and they are the best. They get excited about everything that you do because they don’t have a lot of fresh ideas coming in. So That’s where if you love DemandGen, cool, you know, do some stuff with the agencies, whatever, have it be that cash that you need, have it be some, like, experience that you get more and more and more with them so you can try different stuff. But then if you like DemandGen, go work as a freelancer for demand gen that’s in house at, like, almost any e commerce company, and it’s it’s fun and ego boosting, which never hurts. And you make good money. Yeah.

Right. So that’s what I’ve been that’s what I did in house for many years.

Nice. Love it.

That was what I did over and over and over and over again.

So I know that they that they like me.

The the trick is figuring out, do they have the budget to hire me, hire somebody out out of house.

And do they are they even thinking that way?

Yeah. And it’s true that a lot of tech companies have laid off people.

Not necessarily because they have to these days, because it looks good on the books to do it. But hiring agencies can be have its own downfalls. It can be expensive too. So it’s not that they’re only looking at agencies. They’re also looking at freelancers, to fill in those gaps. So I would just keep that in mind too. Yeah.

Okay. Cool.

That was fun.

I didn’t mean to think up so much time.

No. That was a lot of working through a big thing. Hopefully, we got, you know, kind of nodding things a bit, which takes work.

Good. Let us know what what happens with this conversation. Naomi over in Slack too. Cool. Well Yeah. I know we’ve got three minutes technically left, even though we’re over sort of by thirty. Does anybody have any last thoughts or question or, like, a rapid something where we good to go.

Yeah. Quick question.

When is the the free month trial, like, officially and, like, for CSP. Do you know the day?

That’s a Sarah. I think February. I think this is the free month for you.

Yeah.

Yeah. I just wondered if there was, like, a I think the date.

I think the next payment is on February twenty eight, I think.

Okay. Yeah.

What I think? Check with Sarah.

Okay. Yeah. Sarah knows all that stuff. Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Abby. Anybody else?

Alright. Have a good week. We will see you in Slack. And, this Thursday is Percy’s mindset session on rethinking failure.

So make sure you check that out if you struggle with things like the word failure.

Cool. Okay. Thanks, everybody.

Have a good day.

Thanks, Joe. Bye.

Worksheet

High Class Problems