This is amazing, Dustin.

I know you have a lot that you wanna share with us today.

Just wanna introduce Dustin to the room.

He is a senior copywriter, I believe, is the title over at ManyChat.

We were chatting a bit on LinkedIn, and then I started looking more into what he does and was like, cool. You should come teach.

And he was down for it, which is amazing. So today, of the many things that Dustin could be sharing with us, he’s gonna talk with us particularly about, said like a Canadian, about, conversational how what’s the title for it, Dustin?

It is conversational copywriting for social.

That’s right.

Yes. That’s right. Good. Perfect. So we’re gonna hear a lot there. Some really cool stuff.

Twenty minutes ish of training. There’ll be some practice, some exercises, some things to think through, and then, of course, any questions that y’all would like answered. And those are typically Dustin, I’ve warned you. Sometimes those questions are directly related to the subject you just taught on.

Other times, it’s more about, like, your career, how you got there, how do you get, copy approved with a lot of different people in an organization, how do you get buy in for new ideas, where do ideas come from, all of those kinds of things could come up.

But we have about sixty minutes, fifty five minutes left. So, Dustin, I’m gonna let you take it from here.

Sure. Yeah. I’ll just say to just piggyback on top of what you just said.

You know, I talked to Joanne and Sarah both. I want this to be a very conversational session. I feel like the best way for people to learn and and really get excited about this is to feel like they’re leading it. So whatever questions you have pertaining to this lesson or pertaining to anything, I’ve been doing this for fifteen years.

I’ve done almost every industry. I’ve done direct response, done content, done copy. So been around the block a few times. So, yeah, I hope I can answer all those questions, when we’re done with this.

So I’ll go ahead and open this up, and I guess I will need to share my screen.

And while that’s loading up, for those who are looking for it, Sarah chatted over the link to the work.

Does everything look good on y’all’s end?

Perfect.

Amazing. Okay. So, yeah, like I mentioned, today, we’re gonna talk a little bit about conversational copywriting for social.

And I guess the first thing to get out of the way is this misconception, especially when we’re doing anything on social, whether it’s a LinkedIn post or you’re writing a video script or being in a video script, whatever it is, is write like you talk. That is not what conversational copywriting means. Conversational copywriting is writing in such a way that you are sparking conversation. You’re engaging with people.

You’re making people feel like they are a part of what you’re saying. You know? Are there landing pages, product product descriptions, mini chat? We do automation.

So, automation flows like that, making people feel like they’re a part of something instead of being talked at.

So one important distinction there. Yeah. Let’s go ahead and jump in. So, yeah, like I mentioned here, a conversation copy is, right, starts conversations, advice engagement, engagement, and doesn’t just inform people.

So, like, a big difference between copywriting really and content writing as I see it is content writing is a lot more informing. Copywriting does a lot more selling, engaging, describing, aspirational type stuff. So conversational copy is really just taking that to the next level and really saying, we don’t want to just act like we’re having conversations. We actually wanna talk to you.

So, yeah, the difference is kind of broadcasting. Here are five tips for better social media. We’re just gonna ingest that. We’re not gonna interact with it.

Right? Conversational, everyone wonder why some posts get tons of comments while others get crickets. So immediately, they’re like, yeah. I have thought about that.

So it feels like you’re kicking off a conversation. Right? Not necessarily how I’d probably say that, but it it starts that conversation. Why this matters?

Conversational marketing campaigns have eighty three percent open rate versus twenty one for traditional campaigns, and I think that we’ll see a kind of a bell curve happen with this as AI becomes more popular and as AI gets better at writing like a person.

And it’ll be like this inverse bell curve to people’s trust. So people’s trust will rise as it gets better at that, and they won’t be able to tell the difference. And then they’ll realize, oh my gosh. This has been a AI all along, and we’ll begin to fall off.

So there’s this weird, weird wave we’re riding that we just have to write out because I do think that personal conversations and really having those those connections, those interactions are what are gonna is what is gonna separate the good brands or strong brands from the ones that may have a good product but just kinda are forgotten, which is the worst thing that can happen if you’re a copywriter.

Why it matters even more on social, people consume social media feeds in one and a half one point seven seconds. It’s absurd how quickly people will just scan through. So if they don’t feel like they are immediately engaged by you, if you’re not doing something to immediately speak to them, make them feel like they’re the heart of the conversation, like they’re the center of the conversation or, like, marketing trope kind of overused, but they’re the hero.

They’re not. Right?

Unless you just have a product that is up for them and your placement’s great, which is really, really good if you have, you know, good, performance marketers and know how to get exactly the right message in front of the right people, but sometimes you can’t do that in conversational copywriting is a way to bridge that gap. Save your performance creatives save your performance team some money and help your stuff get seen because it’s just more easy to engage with. It’s more pleasant, and it’s more real for people.

Conversational marketing campaigns achieve eighty eighty three percent open rate compared to only one percent traditional campaigns.

It doesn’t just get seen. It gets responded to. So you think about if you’ve ever done an email campaign, a blast, whatever, a flow, and you don’t expect it, but someone replies to you, you know, like, hey. Like, blah blah blah.

I really like this email. You said something I really liked, or it’s a newsletter or something like that. Like, you are, in that regard, absolutely, like, acing your conversational style because you’re unintentionally triggering something or intentionally in that person that made them respond to an email they may not have. Like, sometimes I get, like, product your product is shipped emails, whatever, from someone I like, and they have a great, you know, follow-up sequence.

And I’ll rock them back and be like, oh my god. Like, that was so great, and have a conversation with them. So it’s cool. Like, those are little touch spots that are so, so important for us as marketing gets more, like, flooded with AI and not real creative.

So a little checklist on what isn’t conversational copy. It’s not just writing how you talk. That’s fun, and it is super great on social media platforms as long as you’re really, really informed on your audience, you know who they are, and you can pass. Like, you don’t nobody wants to be the how do you kids guy with the skateboard. Right? Like, don’t be that guy.

Being overly casual, unprofessional, same thing. It’s not about using jargon that’s off the beaten path or cussing or, you know, using asterisks or anything like that. Although, I will say that parenthetical phrases have become a real signal for, oh, my inner thoughts, and so it can be more conversational.

But AI started to pick up on that too. And broadcasting announcements. This is, like, a huge, huge thing. So you have a banner on a website or an email you send out. There’s multiple ways you can do this.

One is thinking of it as you just standing up on your soapbox, shouting to a room full of people, hey. Like, we have this great new sale going on. Get forty percent off. Bye.

You know? Or it’s going to your friend or texting your friend and say, oh my god. Did you see JCPenney? Okay.

Yeah. I didn’t show you my age. But did you see JCPenney? He’s having a fifty percent off, so that’s really cool.

We should check it out. You know?

That’s the, like, two different kinds of ways of engaging with people. It’s like just blasting out information and you’re talking with someone.

So some examples that I like to use as far as, like, keeping things conversational and, like, how I will idea on these is question hooks, which is one we’ve already seen in what is and what is the copy. Convers conversation copywriting is ever written, social media caption and immediately wanting to delete your entire account. Like, why it works is because you’re asking a question that’s one hundred percent relatable to your audience and something that you’ve probably thought. So you can assume as a creative is gonna think that too.

Unfinished story. I was three coffees deep when I realized our chatbot was getting more engagement than our social team. So I love and I talked with Joanna and Sarah about this. I love to use a technique where I think about, you know, if I’m writing a hero, I think about it’s an event.

Like, whatever is happening here is the event. And I don’t want to talk to people at the beginning of an event because it’s it’s really hard to, like, create all the if if everything you need, like, the FOMO or, you know, going after their the benefits, the features, whatever it is. And I don’t wanna be at the end of the event because we’ve lost the chance to build up that excitement. We’ve skipped the climax and gone right to, like, the ending.

Like, that sucks. Like, I want the good stuff. So I like to try and drop myself into the middle of that conversation and bring my audience into the middle of that conversation, and that makes it feel like, you know, you walk into a room and someone’s having a great conversation, and you’re like, oh my god. I love this.

And you start listening. You wanna know more, and you start asking questions, and I feel like that has more effect. Like, I want people to especially in heroes and headlines and, headlines on your social media and your on your scripts.

Just really making people feel like they’re a part of something. They’re a part of an event. It’s experiential. Right?

And it’s almost aspirational if you want it to be. And I really, really like using the challenge, which is everyone says authentic. Be authentic on social, but what does that actually mean when you’re representing a brand? So, you know, taking cliche phrases or, you know, taking your favorite LinkedIn influencers, phrases they like to use, and just flipping them and be like, what does that even actually mean?

Does anybody even know what that means anymore? And you’re inviting conversation. Right? You might even just be contrarian.

And that’s, you know, probably the oldest, most natural form of trying to correct conversation with people is just being contrarian. So that’s the three I like to use specifically.

And if you guys want to play through this, I thought it would be fun to, like, do kind of an ad lib and where you just kinda stick in your own words there, whether it’s for yourself or your brand or a brand you wanna make up in your head. And I I call this the cap method, which is connect with your audience. And so it’s really important to list research, know who your audience is. And then amplify, which is create a conversational hook, something like almost like an elevator pitch or, you know, your your salesman pitch if you’re walking out to someone and you wanna sell it to immediately. And then PA polish, which is test and rate buying, like, make sure it’s dialed in specifically for your audience to make sure you can’t cut it down more.

I don’t think it’s always important to focus on something being short, but extra words are just extra work. So sometimes the only policy you need is just cut out the words that you don’t really need. And you’ll actually find that that can become more conversational because we do that as we speak. Right? We don’t usually speak in one hundred percent full, like, overly elocuted sentences with all the information. We need to slow them down so they can have a conversation.

So, yeah, if, like, anybody wants to, kinda play through this and work through it and do one of these, like, that would be really, really awesome if if anybody wants to volunteer with that. Otherwise, just, I guess, Joanna can do it.

Wait. What? Yeah.

Let’s all do it.

It’ll be fun. Practice is good. So guide us through this.

So we just wanna go through and do connect your audience’s blank who feel blank about blank, and then we just need to choose one of the hooks and then make it sound natural.

Well, I’ll try I’ll try walking through this myself first. Okay.

So I’ll I’ll just I’ll be mini chat. So my audience is, creators who feel a little bit lost about turning their creative ventures into money making businesses.

So Amplify, choose your hook type and fill in. So where we at?

Where were our hook types? I don’t remember. I’m sorry.

I’ll just say ever ever wondered why other people are posting the same con as you, but getting get past the same con as you, but getting twice as much engagement? Like, what gives with that? Like, how much time are they spending on their on their content? How many times are they reshooting guy?

Ugh. Hate it. You know? Or story hook.

I was this year’s old when I realized that people doing so well on Instagram are using ManyChat.

Or everyone says automation sucks, but you know what? I I was able to answer two hundred messages last night without ever picking up my phone, so jokes on them. Right?

Mhmm. So it’s like throwing those together is super fun. Reading them out now is also something I love to do and makes it me feel like it kinda goes against the idea of don’t write like you talk, but at the same time, it’s a great check for, you know, jargon, too much jargon in in your sentence or if it’s running loud and people having to take a breath in the middle, which is never anything good. So it’s does anybody else wanna do it? Play around with it? I wanna try it. Uh-huh.

This is good for I’m a little nervous, but I was thinking through my answers while you were talking.

So my audience is women who want to build wealth through life insurance and real estate.

Have you ever used life insurance to buy real estate?

I was twenty five years old when I realized you could use something old people buy to build wealth.

And everyone says life insurance is only for when you die, but you can actually use it while you’re alive.

Oh, bro.

Right there.

That’s the one? Okay.

That last one’s killer. I love that.

I like that one.

You gotta consider your audience. I will, be a little bit hesitant to, like, go straight with the death angle with a life insurance. Mhmm. It’s maybe a little morbid, but, like, I think that that is the one I would be like, okay. This is the one.

I might try, like, what’s a little bit edgy but not deaf?

Yeah. Yeah. It’s hard sometimes because young people don’t even think about it, but they’re the ones who benefit the most if they get it girly. So I’ll write down the challenge hook, and I’ll try it.

Well, so so, like, that’s important, like what you just said. So remember well, so cap, like, the c is connect with your audience. So well, that’s what you wanna figure out ahead of time. So do you want just one catch all that is old people, middle aged people, young people, or are you have running a campaign that’s specifically, hey. We’re noticing that young people are getting way more active buying life insurance.

We should capitalize on that because most of our marketing is of geared at whatever, forty five to fifty five year old people Mhmm. Or near or people nearing retirement age. And so immediately, you’re like, that’s our that’s our, that’s our audience. And so that would kinda guide that last statement where, okay. These are younger people, so they’re not thinking so much about it’s only for when you die. You might be able to spin that in a different way for that audience. You know what I mean?

Mhmm. Mhmm.

I think that was killer, though. Do I love that? I I would love that in a hero or in, like, an email, some top line for an email.

Yeah. Oh, thank you.

Yeah. And somebody else. Let’s go. This is fun. I will I will one hundred percent call out names.

I’ll try it. Who cares? Right? We’ll just go for it.

Okay. So my audience, are business owners who feel lonely about their lack of support when making decisions.

And then the three hooks are ever wondered how you can be so successful and feel so lonely. And I could probably, like, dial that in and put, like, a number to the bank account or something.

The next one, I was about to make the deal of my life surrounded by people when it hit me.

And then the next one, everyone says it’s going to be hard, but they don’t prepare you to be so lonely.

Dang. Those hit really hard. Like, that was I don’t see three bangers right there.

I hope sad energy. Back to business.

That’s amazing. I hope you’re writing these down. Those are really, really good. I’m a little jealous. Alright.

Nice.

That’s that’s great. I love that. So we have, like, twenty minutes left. I know that you wanted to keep the teaching the twenty minutes.

So if anybody else wants to go, I’d love to hear it, or we can just go straight into questions. I just wanna go over this. Something super, super important. I know we mentioned not everybody in this class has been doing this for a long time.

There’s new people. There’s old people, old in the sense of been doing this for a while, not old.

But one thing I think that’s getting lost a lot is super, super important that we always remember is every writer is also an editor. So I will have, like, Post it notes all over my monitor with little checklists depending on, like, if I’m doing a blog post, if I’m doing an email post, if I’m doing a headline that are literally just, like, for this specific structural element or where it exists in the hierarchy or who my audience is. Here’s the certain things I need to know. I need I know I need to be hitting.

So I’m I’m really big about checklists. So I kinda did a quick reference here. Like, does this sound like my audience actual language, which is so, so important in conversational copy, is that we can’t make them sound like they’re a part of the conversation if we don’t know how they’re talking. So we need to be in those conversations with our audience.

We need to be talking to them as much as possible. It’s easy to get into Google Analytics and pull demographics, but, part of my fringe, but that does not tell you shit about your audience. It tells you where they live, how much they make, but it doesn’t tell you, you know, what their fears are, what their pains are, what the horrible things that are going in their life are, and that’s much, much more important. Am I starting a conversation?

Am I making announcement? Is this something that I’m expecting a reply to, or is this just something I’m throwing out there? If you’re saying something and you’re not expecting or hoping or wanting a reply, then it’s clearly not a conversation. Right?

When I say this out loud to a friend, that is a great check. That is one that I think is super important, and I will talk to my wife. She works in a completely different industry, and I will say things to her because your jargon just scares people up. And especially if I’m running for a younger or a newer audience to my product, I wanna make sure that it’s not super little with jargon.

And if she is like, what? Then I know that I’m not there, and I can ask her what is it that’s throwing you up. Is it a word, the phrasing, whatever? She needs to tell me.

So friend, coworkers, whatever.

Does this make people want to respond? So this kinda ties in with, you know, the second one and the personalized line. Honestly, am I, like, saying something in such a way, like, tonality of how I say something? Even if I’m asking a question, can it be kitted conveyed as super sarcastic, or is it me actually asking them for that input? And sarcasm is okay. Like, sarcasm gets engagement.

But do I actually wanna reply, or do I just wanna act like I wanna reply? And do my words and creative work together? Oh my god. Please, If you just take one thing out of this, work with creative teams.

Like, work together and tame them, because you’ll just come out with such a better result. And I just had to we changed seven hundred and twenty eight ad creatives last year at ManyChat because the agency that we had used did not link up the right copy with the right creative, and none of it made sense. They had offer codes all over the place. So, yeah, just make sure, you know, whatever message you’re saying, think of, like, where your creative is if you’re a hand talker or you’re a prop talker.

You pick things up. You draw doodles, whatever. That’s what you’re creative. So it’s a part of your conversational style.

Right?

Okay.

That’s all I got for teaching. It’s all your time now.

Amazing. Thanks, Dustin. Very cool.

Alright. Does anybody have any questions? As usual, please raise your hand. Dustin, when we’re asking questions in here, we like start with a win. Before a person asks their question, they share a win that they might have.

So, the usual, please go ahead and raise your hand like I’m trying to there we go.

I’m trying to stop the share. Sorry. There we go.

Oh, sure. No worries.

And then yeah. Then we’ll go and dive in with any questions that you’ve got. Is anybody ready to step up? Ask away?

Shyness. Real shy in the room. Dustin, I wanna know about your if you don’t mind oh, Liezl. I hopped into some for you.

Oh, my win also is I got my book out to beta readers yesterday, so it’s done.

At this draft, at least, is done. That’s my win. Thank you. My question, Dustin, is just general curiosity over your career trajectory. Can you walk us through decisions you made, choices that brought you to I know it’s a big question, but what brought you to where you are as particularly at the company you’re at today and what you’re doing? Just like Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely.

So my first I cut my teeth.

My senior year in college, I applied for an internship at a small paper in the San Antonio called the San Antonio Current, and, like, the horror stories you hear, like, I literally worked in the newsroom and did new stuff and put stuff on the calendar. But I got really, really lucky, and my editor really liked me, and I had a good relationship with him. And he knew that I’ve been a bar of scenario for a while, so he’s like, hey. Like, I got to start going covering, bars in iLife, and I started my first ever published paid thing was a syndicated article called cocktail know how where I was, like, diving into the history of cocktails, which was really just me, like, finding my way and spreading my wings, I guess, as a writer. But it was my first paid gig. It was really, really sweet.

Since then, I worked at Thrillist, building a lot of lists and doing that sort of thing for them, writing about nightlife, bars. Kinda got my feel of that. Didn’t really wanna be in that industry anymore. So I went to a company called BizNow, and I was a commercial real estate reporter and copywriter.

I drafted all their emails and press releases, wrote content for their websites, and they wanted me to move, like, across the country and be a full time reporter, and I wouldn’t do that. So we had to part ways. And then I started working at the CHIVE, which was a very interesting sidetrack in my life because I was older than, like, everyone there. So they were real bro y, frat bro y.

If you know what the tribe is, that wouldn’t really surprise you. And but I really got a lot of experience working with brands, writing in different voices, being forced to write in different voices for different companies, writing their ads. We would have their ad placements in post. We would write, and I would have to write, like, in their brand voice for their audience.

And so it was a great opportunity for me to really work on writing different people’s voices, doing the research I needed to do to find out who those people were. Super, super important for me.

They went over under. I got laid off, and I wanted to keep working and expanding my skills. So I decided that I wanted to take some courses in UX to really get a better handle on connecting with my users, how to take user insights, how to research about my users, my competitors, and those things, and how to apply them back to my writing and UX my words. In the same way, kind of like you UX, whatever, your applications, your UIs, and those sorts of things. It was probably the best decision I ever made for my clock writing career.

The insights I got just on talking to people, how to engage people, had to be on camera every day all day. We had, like, speaking sessions. Like, it was the most important step I made for me in my career, not as a writer, but committing to being a writer.

So after that, I got a job as a head UX marketing writer for a men’s health company, and I got to do a lot of medical writing where I actually worked alongside three, board certified doctors doing a lot of releases. I built, patient inflow, did all their ads, and spearheaded a campaign for them, with the first ever campaign they did for LGBTQ.

And we did this really, really, really awesome campaign that I wrote, this really, really cool ads for. And it was super expensive, and my, marketing director quit and ran off with all the footage.

Yeah. So we never got to see it. So that was a super, super bummer.

And so I split from there. I was like, this is not cool. This is not gonna work for me. And I went to a company called Scribe Media, which was incredible, amazing. I met some of the best people I’ve ever worked with in my life. I work in editorial on books that really, really make a difference and push the idea how important reading and writing is, which is a really big deal to me.

Performative time for me as a professional. Had my best boss I’ve ever had in my career as a as a creative.

His name is Chris Piper, and he was super great at empowering me and very good mentor for me and really, really showed me that I go to this, and I should be doing this. And I had the pleasure and great luck to write a campaign for Rob Report magazine that made three million dollars in a second run of the magazine. So huge deal for me. Pretty much gave me a green light to do whatever I wanted, and that was a really, really awesome time for me.

Left there, and let’s see. Where did I go from there? Oh, I started my own business. Jeez.

I started my own business. I was like, hey. I’m gonna do my own thing, run my own creative department, do all this stuff. It was amazing.

I loved everything about it other than the lack of time, and I nearly had a nervous breakdown. So I had to give up my business fight, and that’s when I was like, I wanna go back to a company environment because I like the collaborative relationships. I like learning from other people, yada yada yada. And it brought me to ManyChat, which has been probably the most fun experience.

And the content that we’re putting out is most closely aligns with who I am as a writer and a creative. And I think that that is something for every single one of you if you really, really are in this to become a copywriter. That is the goal is to go somewhere where you feel like your creative passions and your creative styles really, really align with the the company and the people and all that stuff. So it’s been an amazing experience for me.

I’ve written, podcast scripts. I’ve written scripts for social media ads. I have, like, rewritten websites. I’ve done, like, everything.

I’ve written, we have a summit once a year. I’ve written entire presentations for, like, famous people. We had Trevor Noah last year. I did not write his presentation.

That would have been awesome. But yeah. So I’ve gotta do everything, and I know that there’s a lot of doom and gloom about this industry, and there’s a lot of fear about AI. And I think that that’s very well founded, and everybody should be up to speed on what that can do and how it can help you.

But I stand behind with the power of, real human creative, and I think that it it shows. When someone is good at it and they put their heart into it, it shows. You put it next to it, they’ve done it. You can put it next to AI and testing it.

People will, relate to, and they will more gravitate towards the one that’s human. So, yeah, that’s my story. Sorry. That was really long.

That’s cool.

That’s yeah. No. There’s a lot. Thank you for that.

Lots to ask, but I’m going to turn it over to Liesl. And then if there’s more time, I’ll follow-up.

Liesl.

Hey. Okay. So I had a question, but now I have a different one.

How do you use Liesl, you need your win first.

Oh, my win. You’re right. I created or, like, defined and created, like, my lead framework and my retention, flywheel this week so that I can like, I’ve also done the workshop and everything like that, so that I can go out and sell it. So that was cool. That was fun.

But my question is, you said that the UX, I guess, education that you got is a big contribute here to your career in a very big way and helped you understand your users, your people better.

What is your process? Like, you told us, like, okay. I get into the middle of the event. But what is your process?

Like, what does that look like to get into the head of the people you’re writing for? Because you’ve written for a ton of people. Do you have a process? Do you just sit there at your desk and, like, dream?

Or, like, what do you do?

Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, first, I depending on the what the campaign is and who it’s for, one of the first things I always do is just go look at what other people have done. Like, I’ll look at other really, really successful campaigns. Like, if I’m writing about whatever, like, a a energy bar for millennials, then I’ll just go look at other millennial, campaigns in that, whatever that industry is, and really look at what people are gravitating towards, what’s resonating with them, is probably one of the first things I’ll do.

And one reason I’ll do that is because I look at the terms they’re using, especially if it’s, you know, if it’s, the group that I’m not a part of. Like, I’m not a millennial. I do like energy bars. But that’s my first step to getting into that.

And then I will just literally try to talk to people. Like, I’ll go around my office, if I can.

I’ll go online, and I’ll go into Reddit. I’ll start Reddit threads. I’ll go on LinkedIn and literally go to companies, like, you know, like, what Kindbar? Like, I would go to Kindbar and be like, hey.

Can I talk to y’all? Blah blah blah blah. You know? And try to just try to get in conversations with the people that are in that industry and try to get into conversations with the customers for that industry.

And it’s just like having the conversations. Listening to sales calls is another thing, like, I’ve done before too. If you have a company that has a sales arm, listening to sales calls and how those people are talking to your salespeople. Even if they’re complaining, you can pick up on, you know, those messages, but reading between the lines of things they’re saying, how they’re saying it, whatever their vernacular is, those sorts of things.

And it’s really just, like, being a part of those conversations as much as possible.

Awesome. Thank you.

You’re welcome.

Caitlin, what’s your win?

Hello.

My win is I made a reel that I’m, like, very, very excited about, and I think it’s super funny.

And my question is so this is me just being nosy because I’ve only ever worked in startups and then for myself.

So, like, what is, like, the review process, like, in a company like ManyChat? Because I know I’ve just always been very autonomous. There are maybe, like, two stakeholders in, like, the copy that I write who need to, like, review.

So just wondering, like, what the process is in terms of, like, from when the assignment comes in, how that comes in, to how much creativity you get, to who needs to review, like, what happens next.

That’s a really, really good question.

It’s a complicated answer because it depends. It always depends. Right?

There are some things that I’m allowed to just own, and I can literally write the whole thing and send it off to whatever performance or whoever it is.

Meanwhile, there are some things, like, we’re doing a full on website rewrite. So for, something on that level, it literally goes to everybody. So I will get a brief that will say, you know, we wanna rewrite the home page.

Here’s the messaging we like, and my brand person I’m super, super lucky to have this great brand strategist and brand people that will give me a messaging doc and say, hey. Here’s the messaging that we’ve agreed on, for our audience. This is locked in.

And then I’ll take that typically and make a first pass if I can, like, just getting stuff down, getting the, the hierarchy set, the framework to it. Usually, a creative will already kind of know design will know kind of what are my sections, how much room do I have to play with, and I’ll get that. And I’ll punch stuff in. And then, usually, I will immediately take that first draft and get it in front of someone else, for for me.

So So that’s my first check is I’ll get it in front of, like, a social when someone from social, hey. Like, what do you think of this? Like, does anything stand out to you? If they’re cool, they sign off, then I’ll send it usually would be to, my head of content, and he will either if it’s really, really close and just, like, one or two things or or there’s, like, a whatever, a typo somewhere, he’ll fix that.

He might, like, tweak one or two things. And then if he likes it, then he will approve it and send it up to then it will go to header brands and my CMO.

And my head of brand and my CMO will do exactly the same thing. They will each go through it meticulously and make comments, suggestions. It might be in a Figma file or it might be in a a dot, make comments and suggestions. And, really, depending on how close it is at that point, we might just say tweak those and send it.

Or they might say, let’s make another pass. Let’s go another round. And at which point then I’ll get a little bit more into the nitty gritty. So at that point, I’ll usually go to, like, a product manager, and another SME within whatever that product is and be like, hey.

Like, where is this missing?

Here’s our messaging. Like, what am I not hitting on?

And almost always that rounds with the SME or product manager or someone that really, really knows that stuff will get me there. But it goes literally right back to the same process. My head of content, my other brand, and my CMO. And if anyone in there doesn’t like it, he comes back to me.

So it really it just matters. Like, I’ve written full commercials, that were just like, boop, boop, boop. We shot them in a day. We shot we actually shot five ads in one day once.

We did, like, a full ad sprint, and we wrote and shot five ads in one day. Don’t do that. It was crazy. But, yeah, it just it really depends.

And where you are in your career and what you’ve shown you can do and how much buy in you have from leadership. It or there’s so many variables that are gonna affect that. But I will say that is something I tell everybody else that’s new or or new writers is, like, set you set your boundaries and stick to them and make sure that immediately you know, you don’t don’t be offensive and just completely decline stuff, but let people know. Like, hey.

Five o’clock, that’s it. I’m done. I’m not I’m not running anymore stuff. I’m not working with this anymore.

Like, I have a family life, and whatever it is. Whatever your your lines are, that’s one thing. And two, block your time. If you need to deep dive on something, put it on your calendar and say, don’t bother me.

Like, I gotta bust this out.

So suffice. What’s up, I’m sorry. Am I saying that wrong?

I got all excited.

Okay.

So I’ll lower my hand first.

I had a question about just the content and what I believe to be what a lot of people do. So on social, a lot of people use hooks to get your attention, but then they’re, like, always is I don’t know, extravagant or extra.

Do you think we should even be concerned, or should we just create the content?

I’ll let your audience tell you. Do both. Do both. See what your audience interacts with. That’s what I would say to those kind of questions.

I think, you know, this goes back to the UX way that I like to do stuff.

I would much rather make something that I think is good that may not make it more perfect and put it in front of the audience and see what they say.

If they kick it back, then they’re like, what is this? Or people start making comments, then I’m like, alright. That’s right. But sometimes you put that out there, and they’re like, this is awesome.

This is amazing. We like the less produced version of it. We like it just feels like you’re talking to us. It doesn’t feel salesy.

Like, people come back and tell you, like, that’s probably one of the best piece of advice I can give anybody honestly working in marketing is let your customers tell you.

Okay. Yeah. Because I use conversational text for emails all the time. I’m a storytelling based email marketer. And my like, today, I did a I did a email that clearly worked because everyone’s responding to it, where I’ve announced that I got a job, but I’ve been a full time entrepreneur for, like, two two and a half years almost.

Yes. Congratulations.

Thank you. But if you read it, it’s telling a story about how basically one of my clients hired me so that I could do that job all the time, and I love it. But I still have my business too. So it was my email to encourage people to show up to my webinar about side hustles.

And so I was like, so now my business is my side hustle, and my job is my main gig. So it totally worked. People are saying congratulations. People are like, oh, I’m gonna show up tonight and what?

You know? So that really works. But I struggle on social because I I hate having to show up. So I had attended one of our previous sessions where we talked about batching.

Well, we talked about content in general, and the speaker encouraged batching. And I told her, I’m gonna try, but sometimes I just don’t wanna show up and then have to do something for, like, an hour and then I don’t know. It’s something about, like, doing it in real time. So that’s that.

But my win, was I took my Friday feedback and applied it to one of my clients’ emails, and I got emails with, like, two and a half to three and a half percent click rate, which is really big improvement for them. I didn’t make any sales, but thanks to your advice, I also explained to them that these click rates mean the awareness of the events is happening, and they’re just not ready to buy. And then people bought yesterday. So I’m super excited that advice works.

Yeah. And so that’s my win, and thanks for answering my question. This is awesome.

You’re very welcome. Amazing. Good win. Yeah. And good question.

Anybody else have any other questions for Dustin while we have him here?

Caitlin’s back.

One more.

I feel like I might have a couple.

This came from I told, one of my clients that I was, you know, gonna be on a Zoom with a senior copywriter at ManyChat and asked if she had questions and one of her questions because we utilize ManyChat a lot.

But are there wait. What was it? What are some ways that you think people might be underutilizing ManyChat?

Yes.

It really depends on what you’re using it for. I would say just going ahead and signing up, for a pro account is just such a game changer.

The ability to batch things and use, like, the AI automations within there and some of the other things, you know, auto auto follow-up and some of the things that come just with pro are just absolute, like, godsend lifesavers. Like, they, just change everything. And the more and, really, Pro is built to, like, the more you do, the more it does. So, like, if you’re batching out a flow for, you know, five hundred people, you can just use the AI flow builder, and you do it once, and then it’ll do it five hundred times.

You don’t to keep recreating it. So I would say probably the biggest thing people are doing is just not just popping for it, which I get. I ran my own business, and, like, I know, like, my name was super excited at the beginning, and I would not have been able to use ManyChat, but I would say that’s it. Also, being just being more mindful, kinda like we talked about in this presentation.

Like, mindful of how you’re talking to your audience and not being super salesy and making sure that you’re being communicative. And I think that their Internet is really, really going in a way that people that seem like they’re actually interested in fostering real relationship, they’re talking to you real and ask you how you’re doing. Like, that’s gonna go a long way to building relationships. And I think, like, you know, marketing is all about not selling something now, but being front of the mind when somebody wants your product.

And if you’re building those relationships and they’re thinking thinking about you in that way, and they get on Instagram and they see you in their feed, whatever, that’s how you do that. So I would just say, you know, be friendly and be real, and don’t try to sell. Just let the sell happen. You know?

Like, it sounds so cliche or, like, wolf of washery, but, like, just just let this all happen just because you create a relationship.

Cool. Thank you.