This is part three. Wrapping it up. And as I was, like, writing part three, I was trying to think of, like, the best trilogies in movie history.

Like I don’t know. What’s the best trilogy? Was, like, Batman a trilogy?

Yeah. That’s three. Yeah.

Pretty solid trilogy. Home Alone? Is that a trilogy?

Lord of the Rings.

Lord of the Rings, actually.

Lord of the Rings.

Yeah. That that is probably the best trilogy of all time. Yes. Agreed.

That’s where my mind went.

Yep.

Sweet. So, this is the third and final installment of DeepCraft and our authority, and this one’s all about how to use the scene, heard, felt framework to reveal pain, highlight natural urgency, and compel action. So as a recap, part one, which we did in February, there should be a replay somewhere, was all about deep voice of customer data, how to use three piercing questions to go beneath the surface and extract rich insight that your customers aren’t saying but want to say but don’t have the words to say, and you get to say them in your copy. Part two was shadow copy, how to balance virtuous and forbidden desire to elicit your prospects full range of the app. Yeah. I need this.

And then I think in April, we took a break and did something else, and now we’re wrapping up the trilogy. So recap. The inner authority is one who knows the prospect better than they know themselves, exposes, and illuminates that which the prospect is unable or unwilling to articulate or divulge, build stress and resonance through the whole damn, are you in my head phenomenon.

Four, make sure their one reader is fully fully seen, heard, felt on the page, or at least more seen and felt than any other competitor is willing or able to see them. So best way to make your prospect feel, seen, heard, and felt is to literally see, hear, and feel them.

So the mostly driven direct response copy will engage as many senses as they can to generate a reaction that moves a prospect towards action.

And we do this by painting scenes, like, literally seeing them, hearing, and feeling them in a very specific moment or type of moment that we’re gonna talk about in a second.

So before I get into all that, this is one of my all time favorite copy hacks. I guess I’ll call it a copy hack.

Especially if I’m getting tasked to write email email copy or ad copy on, like, a really short turnaround where, like, the client just, like, doesn’t care about due process or research. Right? Like, we need five emails and five ads by next week.

But, like, yeah, they they don’t care that it takes x amount of time to do research to the proper, like, mining and all this stuff. Like, they just need it done. So this is what I turned to because the research to generate this type of copy is minimal. It could be done in under an hour, and the results have gotten out of this kind of copy, especially on ads and sales emails that point to, pricing pages or application forms has been awesome. So, yeah, little hack if you have to write ads or emails on a really tight, timeline with kind of a minimum bible research phase.

So sensory dominance hierarchy. So I did a lot of, like, research on this and tried to find, like like, I’ve heard all, like, all these years. Right? Like, engage as many senses as you can and, like but which ones are the most important?

Like, not all senses, like yeah. Not all senses can be created equal. Like, people must be more dominant in a certain sense. And what I found, and I can’t find any sources.

Everyone just says this to be true. And, like, they’re quoting some, like, outdated journals that I’ve never heard of, but, essentially, comes down to seen, like, visual data seems to be the most universally strong and dominant sense followed by sound, so heard, and felt. So these are the three that I’m gonna focus on. Touch, taste, and smell, like, I’m very smell oriented, but for whatever reason, that ranks very low on the hierarchy.

So in my copy, I rarely talk about, like, the scent of a wafting candle in the next room, because yeah. I don’t know. Maybe I should talk more about scent and see who responds to scent. But seen, heard, and felt are the most dominant ones that I found in my research and that I tend to rely on most when it comes to writing copy.

So when when we talk about scene, I mean, literally, like, be seen. Like, where are they at? Place them as a character in a certain environment.

And, like, what they see, give a three hundred sixty degree view. Like, what are they seeing within that scene? What is the visual data that they are processing? So that could be facial cues from people in the room. That could be, like, what they’re seeing on a screen in front of them. It could be markups on a Google Doc if you’re a copywriter.

What is the visual data that they are processing and interpreting?

And with that, we get to see them and their experience. So this is where someone feels seen, when we actually see them where they’re at and see kind of through their eyes what they’re processing, what they’re interpreting, what they’re experiencing.

Next one is heard. So very similar. Like, what are the sounds in their environment? What are they processing auditorily?

So there’s that. And then there’s my favorite, which is their inner sound. Right? Their secret desires, their story making, their inner critic, like, just abusing them with nonsense all the time.

Like, what are they telling themselves? What are they hearing internally?

Then dialogue from key stakeholders. Right? What is their boss saying to them? What does their colleague saying to them?

What does their spouse saying to them? What does their child saying to them? What does their client saying to them? What is the dialogue that is being processed from the outside in?

This really makes good subject lines. I’m gonna show you that in a second in our example.

And when we do this, they get to feel heard in their experience. Right? So we get to mirror back what they’re hearing. We get to mirror back what their internal dialogue is as they interpret that environment, and then we mirror that back, and they get to feel heard almost in the same way as if they had shared that with a therapist.

And then felt is how they are reacting to the visual and the auditory data. Right? So they’re seeing stuff, they’re hearing stuff, and then they’re having an emotional or bodily or somatic reaction to it. So this could be feeling anxious, fearful, angry, sad, betrayed.

It could be somatic, feeling contracted, butterflies, burning with rage, and, essentially, what they are feeling in response to the visual and the auditory data. Is that clear? Like, I’m gonna stop for a second because I just, like, give a lot of information.

Cool.

Cool. Alright. So let’s move on.

Sweet. So your prospect is obviously seeing, hearing, and feeling in response to what they’re seeing and hearing a ton, right, a ton in their daily experience. So how do we choose the ones that are gonna be most effective in mirroring back in our copy? So what I what I essentially, like, bring this down to is moments of heightened receptivity or moment moments of highest tension, which I kinda be as interchangeably right now.

So a moment of heightened receptivity is a moment where your client or prospective client would be most receptive and most responsive to to an offer. So it’s where the stakes and the consequences associated with the problem or the gap are no longer bearable, no longer tolerable, and no longer avoidable. And it’s a very real moment. Right?

It’s a very real moment. Every prospect who has ever invested a good sum of money, right, has had a moment that triggered that purchase or triggered the need to seek a solution and overcome that problem. Almost universally, I haven’t found any case where this hasn’t been true, where there hasn’t been a moment that it could be anchored to where they decided this problem just can’t persist any longer or it’s reached this boiling point and something has to change. So this is a very real moment that your voice of customer and your voice of prospect data should be revealing.

So what I love about voice of prospect data and how I differentiate the two is voice of prospect data is the data you get before they’ve made the purchase. So they’re in that buying decision. They haven’t yet purchased and landed on, the post purchase. Thank you survey.

This isn’t an interview you do after the fact. This is them while they are considering that decision. So the classic, most obvious way to extract this is on a sales or demo call with a very simple opener. Right?

What was happening in your world? What was happening in your life that made you want to book this call? Right? And typically typically, a prospect at this point will give kind of, like, the placeholder that is the entry point to that moment of heightened receptivity, and a really good salesperson is gonna dig deep enough to really paint that picture.

Like, in part of where they were, what they were experiencing, and how that landed for them, and why that feels urgent and important. And I’m gonna walk you through an example, in just a second. So let’s get practical.

Step one is going to be to choose a moment a moment of heightened receptivity from your voice of prospect or your or your voice of customer data.

Step number two would be to take fifteen minutes to fill in that SHF data. So if you do audit sales calls, right, if you do audit demo calls, like, find that moment of heightened receptivity. Like, this is something you could be that could be done in client interviews that you’re relying on that. This is could be something that could be done in auditing sales calls. This is something I’ve even done in taking sales calls for a client. Like, when they had an overflow, I jumped on the phone to literally extract this data myself. So this is something you could get from a very from a variety of sources.

Once you have a moment of heightened receptivity, simply, like, unpack it on these three levels. Right? Like, during a moment of heightened receptivity, what are they seeing? What is in their visual field? What is the data they are interpreting visually?

During a moment of heightened receptivity, what are they hearing? What are the sounds? What is the inner dialogue? What is being said to them? And then finally, how are they reacting to that? So this is, like, a fifteen minute exercise to just really process the information coming out about my moment of heightened recitivy.

And then for that, we could craft an email or an ad.

So let’s look at an example.

Gonna get off this share.

So many windows, so many tabs.

Sweet.

Cool.

So this is one that I wrote for a client in the relationship space. So pulled I pulled the moment of heightened receptivity from the voice of prospect data extracted from a sales call. So this is a loose transcript from the sales call that I pulled it from.

So the salesperson essentially started, you know, what was happening in your life that made you wanna reach out, that made you wanna get on a call.

And this is pretty close to the verbatim that I heard from the conversation. So last night, I found found myself in bed watching Netflix on the iPad, and I effin’ hated it. I hated that I’m so resigned to intimacy even happening with my wife that this is just my routine, and I’ve accepted it and feel like there’s nothing else I can do to change at this point. Right?

So that puts us in a scene. Right? It gives us good data. And then a good salesperson or a good copywriter will ask for elaboration.

Right? So can you tell me more? Then the prospect got a little bit confused. He’s like, what do you mean?

Then the salesperson, like, can you be more specific? So this is a really good follow-up question to ask on sales calls, right, on, customer interviews. Just simple. Can you be more specific?

What were you watching? What was what happened as your wife walked into the room?

And then he elaborated. Like, I found this was funny. Like, I was watching Sons of Anarchy. I’ve never seen Sons of Anarchy, by the way. I don’t even know if it’s a good show.

And my wife came to What are you talking about?

Never seen it.

It’s a good show.

Yeah. I wanna see it now.

A good show. You should watch it. Yeah.

You could be on that. Right? I feel What?

Alright. Maybe.

I’m kidding.

Never seen it. I was watching scent of anarchy, and my wife came into the room, and I barely looked up. Like, very subtle data that communicates so much information about that pain. Right? And I don’t know why. I just felt like I didn’t wanna make eye contact and end up in a thing.

Salesperson, great question here. What kind of thing? Right? Like, what kind of thing? And that the conversation about where our marriage is going.

Is this for frequent conversation? Yeah. And it’s effing exhausting. Right? So this was all extracted in about a minute, a minute and a half of auditing a sales call.

Like, if you were writing an ad or an email for this client, do you think you can write something half decent with just this data?

Right?

Yeah. So other moments of heightened receptivity that I could draw from other emails and ads. Right? So, like, one thing I’ve noticed, there tends to be at least two or three or four, like, really strong moments of heightened receptivity, like, that come up in these types of calls.

Right? This is kind of like the late night argument version of it.

I audited a sales call, right, where he’s like, I downloaded the secret Tinder account, and I’m like, that’s a great subject line. I don’t know if it’s universally relatable, but you get so much good stuff out of just, like, auditing the first few minutes of a sales call. You don’t need to go through the full forty five minutes, hour long, hour and a half where they start getting into the offer specific details. Just hearing what motivated someone to get into a solution seeking state can give you all you need to craft really good emails and really good ads.

Step two, optional as we said. Right? Like, typically, once I have this data, I feel like I could just, like, go to the races and write. I don’t necessarily need to distill it into those three categories. But if you feel like that’s a useful part of your process, definitely take fifteen minutes, watch the scene in your mind’s eye, and just, like, fill in that extra commentary and, like, unpack, like, what are they seeing, what are they hearing, what are they feeling, And engage all three of those, within your email.

Step number three, craft it.

And this is what I love about, like, the what are they hearing, right, within the subject line. Like, where is this going? I think this got, like, one of the highest open rates this client got. Like, where is this going? It’s like those words that just anchor someone right in that scene.

And, yeah, I’ll do a quick read through, and you could just see how pretty much every line is mirroring back either the visual data, the auditory data, or the reaction and the emotional feeling as it relate as it relates to it. So at eight forty nine PM, it may have taken a double round of little blue truck, but you finally got kids to sleep. After a crazy ass day of working and child wrangling, you glance down at your iPhone clock anxiously debating whether you could squeeze whether you should squeeze out some cursory, check the box connection time with your wife or take solo comfort in a mini two episode max sense of anarchy binge vest, falling asleep to a chorus of Ron Perlman and one liners.

You offer Ron’s massive ass mug. He really has a big face. That’s what I noticed in my research. Like, the longest part of writing this email was, like, finding gifts, then realizing how big this man’s face was, and then, like, Googling Ron Perlman Young to see if he always had a big face or if, like, his face enlarged over time.

Manzo’s had a big face. What can you do?

Somehow, he triggered the less than rattling off the day stresses followed by a peck and a turn to the other side of bed that your connection time has become. Right? So all data here, right, of what they’re seeing. Two episode max, substance of anarchy, Ron Perlman, you know, his face, one liners. That’s, like, scene.

You glance down at your iPhone clock. That’s sight. That’s literally what they’re seeing. And then this is the reaction. Right? Anxiously debating whether you should squeeze out some cursory check the box connection time.

So, sight and then the feeling. Right?

We’re mixing in seen, heard, and felt.

Just as your nervous system self soothes to the iconic Netflix ta dum. So we have feeling and we have hearing.

The oak floors creak, that’s hearing. Your wife walks into the room, visual.

You don’t even need to see her face to know it ain’t good feeling. Right? So, like, one sentence, right, or, like, one line has a heard, a scene, NFL.

You barely look up. You know, the moment you do, you’re committing to an agonizing three hour where is this marriage going combo when you played out dozens of times over the last half decade of the guitar script. Then we go into the feeling each time running the same circuit of blame over unmet needs, frustration, over ongoing stagnancy, and errant tossing of emotional grenades over ancient wounds and resentments, or for you both concede to resolution via exhaustion, AKA a temporary peace treat until the next flare up. But this time, it somehow feels different, worse.

Instead of anger, you feel her sadness. Instead of fight, you feel failure, and part of you misses a version of one another that at least fought for your match to survive. It’s as if you’re each waiting for the other to deliver the final death blow, but you can’t say it. You can’t say anything.

You’re uncommitted in both directions, and you’ve been stuck hoping and waiting that your relationship would somehow just revive itself with itself, apply a defibrillator, but it hasn’t. Of course, it hasn’t. And now your wife with sadness in her eyes is asking you, where is this marriage going? Right?

So back to the herd and the same. If you don’t have an answer, that’s a problem. We should talk.

If you have an answer and it’s anything but a clear f, yeah, we’re heading into greater connection, deeper passionate, stronger commitment. That’s a problem. We should talk. If you’re holding so much blame, anger, and hostility that you don’t even want to offer her an answer because you can’t discern what’s even true for you anymore, That’s a problem you should talk. But most of all, if deep down, you know, she deserves the best of you, and there’s just been a wounded part of you unwilling to offer it, but you’re willing to do whatever it takes to step up, show up, and reignite what’s possible for you and your wife, then we got a spot on our account with your name on it. Right. So this is what’s possible, like, in just getting the moment of heightened receptivity.

Like, you don’t need Mattell’s data to write an email that has someone, like, fully seen, heard, and felt in a critical moment of heightened receptivity where they would do anything to solve it. So that’s what I got. Opening to questions, comments, feedback, and up your views if y’all have anything you want feedback on.

Yeah. I oh, go ahead.

I was gonna say, do you have, like, a specific order that you try to get them in?

Because it sounds like you try to rotate them.

Within the email itself?

I like to start I like to start with seen just because, like, it’s a really easy way to anchor them into it.

But other than that, it’s just kind of how I process and play out the scene as I write. But yeah.

Good question. I think starting with site tends to, like, anchor the scene really well.

Yeah. It’s kind of like a stupid comment, but I I’ve had, like, a question in my head for, like, years about because, like, your copy is very specific, and I kind of aim for that standard of, like, specificity.

But then sometimes I feel like my copy is too specific or, like and it’s not working. And I always wondered, like, what’s going on? But I think from doing that, I’ve kind of just sussed it. It’s like, you pick, like, a universal problem, and then you get specificity rather than just doing a specific problem because then it’s like then you can alienate people. If you pick universal problem and then get specific, like, you’re not gonna alienate people. I’m just very pleased I’ve just solved that because I’ve been like, what’s going on here for ages?

Wait. Are you doing that again, Harry? I’m not sure I followed that.

Okay. So, like, choose the universal the universal problem, like, the most common So if you’re, like, surveying mining or something and then you’ve got the problem that comes up the most and then get really specific within that problem rather than just going for, like, a specific problem.

Because then it can feel too specific and then the client could be like, oh, like, people don’t think this. But if you if you choose the general problem and then add specific details and it adds that, like, color and depth.

And it’s isn’t gonna make people think, oh, well because no one’s gonna be like, oh, I don’t watch Sons of Anarchy. That doesn’t, like, apply to me. But they might but if it’s a specific problem that they don’t feel, then you can alienate them. Does that make sense?

I think so.

I mean, why would explain it better?

I I think, like, the simplest way I could put it, right, is, like, any, like, any so the audience for this was, like, men in marriages. Right? And the main problem it fixes is, like, disconnection and numbness. Right?

So it’s like any man who is feeling disconnected and confused and not sure what to do will relate with the man in that scene, right, regardless of the specifics of it, regardless of whether or not he actually, like, sons of anarchy or not. Like, he knows what it’s like to like, there are some details he’ll pick up on. Right? Like, the averting the gaze.

Right? Averting the eye contact is not wanting to engage in that space or not knowing how to. So it’s like yeah. Essentially, he can see himself in that man’s shoes because they share the common ground of the core problem, if that makes sense.

I have another question.

Yep.

So I I think that filling in a lot of these details is possible in a more b to c space. But, again, like, for example, one of I think I brought up this copy a couple of times. This company I’m working with is called Novena. They do AI powered, health care.

Mhmm.

And they’re dealing with, like, health care organization.

Not like a doctor, a nurse, like an office, like the management organizations Mhmm.

Of health care providers.

Like, how do I go about filling in the sensory details in that kind of client when those kind of details are not things that you’ll find on a sales call? And it’s so far removed from my daily life. Like, where do I go without even starting to look for those kind of details?

Right. Like, who is the ultimate, like, decision maker?

Like, of Like, care management groups that, like, deal with health care regulations and, like, payers, insurance, things like that.

Like, they’re managing either hospitals, like, different hospitals and, like, hospital chain or, like, a bunch of, like, a a bunch of physicians that are part of, like, a physician care group.

Yep. Yeah. So, I mean, I’ll acknowledge. Right? Like, there are limitations. You probably can’t tell that same type of story in that context.

Most likely not. Right? Like, I think that you do run into challenges with clients being comfortable with a full on kind of, like, story and immersion into that kind of case.

Where there is where there is, like, clarity on what the, you know, the main purchaser, right, is experiencing as it relates to solving that problem. I think injecting some of those details is is useful. Right? Like, I don’t know what the specific experience is of a moment of heightened receptivity in that buying decision. But if you can even just, like, reflect on, like, what is the tipping point that moves them towards consideration here. Right? Like, is does something actually happen that triggers a we need to fix this or we need to seek a solution here?

Then you can bring that in. Right? Like, in a obviously tone down way, but there’s still probably a moment that triggers a buying decision, likely.

Yes. I think one of the issues, though, is in a lot of really complex b two b solutions, the person who has the pain point is not the person making the decision. So in this case, the doctor is the one feeling the pain because the pain point is they have a lot of patient records to read through before they see a patient. And they don’t have time to go through it all, and they don’t have the, they oftentimes miss important details. But the person buying it is the person managing those positions, and they might have been a position themselves at one point, but now they’re in more of an administrative role.

And so Right.

Yeah. Do they have, like, challenges in managing those positions or serving those positions, like, because of the physician stress? Does it kinda, like, bleed over?

Yeah. So it’s a lot about, like, making sure that they’re getting that they’re they’re having good care and a lot about, like, how they interact with insurance if they’re on more of a value based model, meaning that they’re being paid based on the outcome of the patient as opposed to, just a fixed amount, then they wanna make sure that they are going through all of these records and things like that.

Yeah.

So it’s a lot about being efficient and optimizing workflows and Mhmm. Avoiding time wastage.

Right. And they there’s a cost to them when the physicians are inefficient. Right? Like, some of that moves through. Yeah. So, like, they have yeah.

Patients aren’t being healed. Mhmm. Things like that. I mean, this is just one example, but I Mhmm. Like, it’s also relevant for lots of different examples.

Yeah. So, like, if you could identify, like, you know, the two or three biggest motivators. Right? Like, if it’s, like, inefficiency, for example, inefficiency or, like, reduction of quality of patient care. Right? That’s, like, two of them.

Mhmm.

And if you can almost highlight, like, two or three scenarios for each of those two that they would be hearing, seeing, and feeling, right, like, either as a complaint, right, or a lawsuit or a reduction of billings, like, whatever that translates to. Mhmm. I think that there’d be an opportunity to craft, like, tone down versions of this email around that. Right?

Mhmm. Like, especially if the buyer of this is in contact with the doctor or the physician and maybe the physician is communicating some of that stress to them, and they don’t have a solution to it, right, other than, like, keep going. Right? Like, do your best.

Right? Like, I don’t know how that plays out.

Mhmm. But I can only imagine there are stressful scenarios for both the buyer and the position they serve here. Right? And, like, just highlighting some of those without being too excessive in the scene painting, could go a long way.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I definitely include those kind of elements. But, like, I wish I could include more sensory details, like, bring in what the office looks like or who they’re meeting with. And I just I am so far removed from that world.

I Mhmm.

Would be embarrassed to even venture a guess. Especially, like, I remember when I was working in house, like, I would collect these anecdotes, like, after over a long period of how like, over six to twelve months, you could collect a lot of anecdotes to sort of create that picture in your head.

Mhmm.

But, like, if you’re just going into a project, it’s hard to sort of absorb that in an organic way.

Yeah. Understandable.

Is there kind of, like, a standard system that they use, like, visually? Like, are things being processed through, like, you know, a common system? Like, where things are signaled as being inefficient or, like, how do they know something’s inefficient other than, like, the feeling of it?

Like, is it in the reduced billings and a report at the end of the month?

Like Yeah.

Yeah.

There would be issues with payments and Mhmm.

Doctors would be burned out. That’s a big one. Doctors would not wanna there there would be a lot of turnover.

So so, like, a missed payment, like, that’s where I would dig. Like, what is, like, what is the experience of a missed payment? Is, like, an is it an email notification from, like, x payment processor system? Like and they get that on their phone or they get that, like, at the office, and then they have to like, that would be a moment, for example.

Mhmm.

Yeah.

So yeah. Sometimes. So yeah. Obviously, like, obviously, like, familiarity and the more conversations you have with it, the easier it gets. And there are certain limitations when, like, you’re newer to that world and not a lot of people are interacting with you about these details, and there’s not a lot of opportunity to get them.

Mhmm.

But, yeah, where where you do have the ability to, like, ask those probing questions. Right? Like, so much can come out of it. Right?

Like, what does that what does inefficiency actually look like? What does that moment it signals to you? Right? Like, and have you feel in that moment.

Yeah. I love the idea of the notification on your phone. I just like, the client is also a marketer, and so Yep. They’re not as familiar with it.

And Mhmm. These people are pretty high up in their career ladder, so they’re not, like, people who would be really readily available to just casually jump on a call. And customer success is not always willing to let you jump on a call with them. Right.

So but, like, I like that idea, but I feel like I might have to find other sources to sort of validate that kind of language.

Right.

Yeah. I would start with, like, what’s most within reach. I think, like, the visual would would be the easiest. Right?

Because you don’t really need to go too deep into their personal experience of how did you react to that. Like, you can kind of fill in the gaps. Right? Like, if they’re getting a notification of a missed payment or whatever, like, it’s a pretty universal experience of how that feels, right, to the end user.

So, yeah, just, like, get that data. Right? Like, are they checking it on their phone, on their lunch break, and that pings them? Like, does that warrant a conversation with, like, the office manager or the head phys like, I don’t know enough about that industry to fill in those gaps, but, yeah, I feel like, some light digging might yield some pretty cool results.

Okay.

Cool. Jessica, I see your hand up.

I was just getting in line for a copy review, if that’s okay.

Yeah. That’s cool.

For sure. Any other questions about the topic before we jump into Jessica’s review?

Sweet. I think that means you’re up.

Okay.

So, Ry, I don’t I don’t know, if you’ve heard, but I was kinda shifting. You know, I was focusing on seasonal sales, holiday sales?

Mhmm.

Yeah. Red thread. Okay. So as that kind of, was explored deeper, I redid my home page, all the things, then it kinda became more of a helping ecommerce brands on the either other side of the discount.

Like, once they’ve acquired a client through a discount, what do we do? Because we can’t may we can’t create loyalty with a discount. Right? Mhmm.

And so and then it kinda became, the phrase for my, hopefully, future podcast newsletters, ditch the discount. And not to say never do discounts, but be more strategic.

Mhmm.

And so but my big thing is I’d like to build, ideally, a more email funnel, SMS funnel, service package through, you know, the intensive Joe’s teaching, the standardized project and the retainer. So my goal is to create, like, the email program audit, and that’s what I’ve actually done for a couple brands now, and then retainer being the optimization, especially of their flows. So just so you kind of have context of what I’m kinda building now. And Abby kind of helped me through my home page website.

And, I just that’s what I wanna share. And, Naomi, by the way, I was just saying, I I believe that you’ve done interviews. I was just saying that that for me, when I was working at my my Utilizer, that was where I got all my stuff. I didn’t mean to say you weren’t doing it. That was that was just my comment. Okay. So, anyway, here’s my home page.

Yes, please feel free to be as brutal as whatever. But the ultimate I don’t know. We did, like, a fast rewrite, and I just I walked away going, well, it’s better than my seasonal sale focused version, but I still don’t think as I go through it. I’m like, do they know what I do? Do they know what the next step like, I’m I really stripped back. I took my services page off and all that, and I just really wanna focus on let’s optimize the home page, and then I’ll go from there. So that’s kind of what I’m looking for is help with making this better so that they know what I do and know the next step, which would be a call with me, essentially.

Cool. Alright.

Let’s go through it.

Sweet. DTC and ecommerce brands. I’ll read in my head so it’s not annoying.

If anyone has a comment as I go through this, feel free to just jump in.

Do you have a picture of yourself where you’re facing to the right? Because I feel like if you had well, I think number one, if this image was slightly larger, it might feel a little bit more balanced because I feel like there’s a lot of empty space here at the top.

Or maybe even if the text was on the left and the picture’s on the right.

Because I feel like having the text in the middle and the picture on the right feels a little bit imbalanced because the empty space on the left.

So that might help make it a little bit more like, fill up the space more.

Did you catch that, Jess?

I did. I’m just it’s cool. Yeah. I I appreciate that. Know that it’s not really, it’s funny that you bring that up because Abby and I Abby, was that not on the left side of the thing the person you’re like, And we were like, yeah.

It’s better than the central. But the problem also is me figuring out Squarespace and spacing. Because if you put this on a different size window or on a different, a different device, you will see something almost totally different. So, yeah, I know that, but it’s it’s not my priority right now.

But, yeah, I mean, it’s on the notes of things to do eventually. I’m sure.

Yeah. I mean, I think the text is fine in the middle. It just with the image. It might need a maybe maybe just leave the image off.

Yeah. Just a lot.

So it’s your, like, ideal client over five million?

Yeah. That was, that’s kind of what I found is that if they don’t make at least five million in annual revenue, it’s it’s not an ideal client who would invest in me.

Cool.

Jessica, this is I know, like, it’s really difficult because we’ve we’ve just kind of been guessing that, like, for a client over five million, like, do they still want more sales? Is that still, like, the thing that they want?

Like, it it seems like a really silly question, but I don’t know. I’m just wondering now with the like, you want more like, you need more sales. Like, is that is that still what they’re trying to to do?

Like As opposed to what?

Exactly. I don’t know. Like, to build more profit, more profitability. I don’t know.

Well, we said sales. I think you and I talked about changing it, but, I mean, ultimately, the biggest challenge with this group that I’ve interacted with and then done, of course, more research on is, that email channel specifically is not generating the revenue they feel it should Mhmm. And especially from the flows. Like, I’ve heard I’ve had a a client and then a couple leads and then just researched their where usually, they can’t this big shocker, their campaigns, they’re not too unhappy with their campaigns because guess what they lead with, a discount, or it’s a holiday or whatever.

But it’s their flows, their automation.

Leave it that then, like, rather than needing more sales? Because I guess if they need more sales, they can just, like, increase the ad spend if they’re at, like, five million or whatever. Maybe just maybe lead with, like, literally what you just said about the email flows. I don’t know.

And I know this is really annoying because I’ve we’ve been over the phase together, and I’m adding something new. But I just missed that bit about over the five million mark, and now I’m yeah. I don’t know. I’m just curious.

You might be able to talk about scaling because meeting sales means like, in my mind, that means, well, I’m desperate for sales where once you get to a certain point, it’s not that you desperately need them. It’s that you’re looking to put things on autopilot. You’re looking to make things more efficient. You’re looking to optimize things. So it’s wanting more scale wanting more sales, but wanting them, in a way that’s scalable.

No. I think that’s that that’s a great how does that hit with you, Ry? Because I definitely saw, the word scale, scaling, and the other versions of it in, VOC research.

Mhmm.

So why does that hit you with opening that as opposed to just generally the word sales?

Scaling is stronger than more sales, I think, for this audience, especially if you’re really targeting people who are already over five million, and they’re probably looking to scale sustainably.

Right? And the margins are a really big part of that, I’m guessing.

Like, would that be accurate?

Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yep.

I think so so that’s one way to lead in. Another way to lead in would be, like, obviously, like, this pain point. So it’s like, how strong is the pain point in their VOC of, like, the discounting? Is it something that they really, really hate and it’s a necessary evil, or is it something that you think they hate? Like, how much are they talking about, like, dreading discounting?

Oh, that’s a really good point.

Like, I know you hate discounts for them. Right? But how much are they like like let’s say, like, it’s Monday morning after their, like, Mother’s Day promotion. Right? Yeah. And they’re putting the numbers on the screen, like and it was, like, great sales volume, like, poor margins. Are they complaining about the margins there, or are they just happy with the volume?

Like So the meetings I’ve been in on, it’s celebrate celebrate the win of whatever was the latest promotion.

Mhmm.

And then it it almost in between the promotions is talking about retention.

So, like, we talk about cause. We talk about that a little bit maybe in the in betweens.

But when we’re talking about post sale Mhmm.

It’s pretty rare that I’m in on a Trevani a long time. It was pretty rare that you’d come off of a a promotion and go, oh, crap.

But how are we gonna keep these people? And, they were they didn’t seem to be obsessing about the discount. They were celebrating either the win or the not, I guess, the not.

Mhmm. Yeah.

I didn’t So yeah.

And it’s an important note. Right? Like Yeah. With that that retention, like and without, like, actually getting nondiscounted sales after that customer’s been acquired, like, they’re not gonna grow. Right?

Right.

One thing comes to mind is, like, a really kind of more of an unconventional format as a headline. Like, you could take it or leave it that might capture that. Right? It’s like what was it?

You know, great news. Like, great news. Our, yeah, great news. Our mother can’t mother to stay campaign crushed, you know, bringing in over x.

Bad news. Our margins were thinner than a next gen iPad. New app. Right?

Now we got now what what now what do we gotta do? Essentially, like, be the third one, which is, like, how do we increase our LTV? How do we retain them? How do we get repeat sales at higher margins? Right? Like, if that’s the scenario you fix of, like, they’re flush full of, like, new customers that have been discounted.

The margins are thin. They’re aware of it, and now they have this opportunity of needing to maximize, right, repeat purchases, nondiscounted purchases, and the email flows that support it. Like, I think that could be a really cool way to drop into the conversation.

So how would you because that’s always been a disconnect for me is making sure it’s really clear that when I talk about that, that I then is it clear? Or how do I make it clear that and the solution is your email and SMS marketing, not basically any like, I’m not gonna do ads. We’re not gonna talk. I’m not I’m not gonna do I’m not diving back into the ads. So is that how do I make sure that connection is clear?

I mean, it’s clear here.

Okay. Alright.

Mhmm. Okay. Good email strategy and conversion copy.

Email strategy and conversion copy. I mean, I maybe have SMS here, right, if that’s a big part of what you do and a big part of what they know they need.

Yeah. Okay.

SMS may mean more to them than conversion copy. I’m not sure.

Like Mhmm.

Good point.

That creates repeat customers so you can boost your revenue. Do you have, like, special IP names for your, like, email frameworks or your SMS flows?

Or No.

I did for my seasonal sales, but, no, I haven’t created something. But I that’s a great you’re right. I need that.

What would you do with it since you were thinking of it?

Oh, I mean, I would just, like, note that here. Right? Like, if you had a different term for email strategy or a different term for, like like, ex SMS type flow. Right? Like, your branded SMS flow. Right?

Okay.

Like, it would be too much of a mouthful to say, like, post discount purchase SMS flows. Right? Like, I don’t know. But I think, like, what I’m hearing you do, right, is, like, you maximize everything out of these discounted customers. Right? And you do that. So it is kind of like a post seasonal sale strategy.

Is that correct?

Yeah. It’s the, yes. Exact yeah. Either seasonal sale or some form of a promotion, but yeah.

So that moment of heightened for them really is, like, analyzing their seasonal sales data, being hyped about, you know, you know, the top line kind of meh about the margins and our team, let’s maximize it. Like, I would really enter the conversation there and then talk about how you fit into that post seasonal sales flow.

Okay. Yeah. Because it really anchors it to a very specific use case. Right? Like, you’ve had this win, now you have this opportunity. Right? Or you’ve had this win, this is what you sacrificed to get the win, but this is how you make it up and then some.

Okay.

Wait. Can I have a I have a question? How how focused are they on the margins?

Because I know, like like, if you’re I I don’t know anything about ecommerce, but I know in SaaS, like, there was a big, big shift when the market crashed when, like, twenty twenty one, the only thing anyone talked about was growth, and no one could possibly care about how much marketers were spending.

And now the only thing everyone cares about is profitability.

But if you had said like, if I were to say you should hire me because I’ll help you make your campaigns more efficient, like, no one would care.

But, like, if that’s the case, then it would be more help like, my strategy would be to go in and, like, introduce a little bit of doubt. Like, try to start by almost waking them up to the problem.

Like, what, like, you’re you’re celebrating these wins. That’s what you said. But there’s, like, a creeping doubt in the back of your mind that this growth is is not as profitable as it could be or this growth is happening only because, you’re putting a lot of money into it.

Is that clear? No? Yes?

I think I’m pausing before I respond because I’m thinking about what you just said. Yes. Profitability and, profit margins are important to ecommerce for sure. It’s also why I can’t work with certain brands because the the profit margins are just too too small.

So, yeah, I mean, that’s definitely a conversation.

At the top of their mind, or are they just, like, celebrating these wins and not thinking about the margins?

No. If there if there’s someone at the level that I’m speaking to, yeah, they’re paying attention to it.

Okay. Makes sense.

Do you have, like, data even if it’s, like, an estimate of, like, the average profit margin of your ideal client and, like, where they’d like to be? Or is it or does it vary too much from company to company?

I don’t think I have a no. I don’t have a well, obviously, I’m pausing. So, no, I don’t have that a solid statistic. But you’re that’s a good point.

Mhmm.

Yeah. I don’t think you need to define it. Right? I think, like, as as long as you call it out, right, like, you have a win of your volume, you have an l, right, and the margins you had to accept by discounting, and now you have an opportunity to make up for it and experience, like, true growth. Right? Mhmm. Yep.

So, like, I think that’s I think that’s the sales argument. Because when you really think about, like, what your ideal client is experiencing, like, what is true about them? They are experiencing a win in volume sales, right, from discounting, and they’re experiencing the need for, yeah. Exactly what you do. Right? More sales, nondiscounted.

K.

Cool.

Your email list isn’t responding to your discount heavy designed heavy emails.

So depending on what you do with the headline, right, like, it may change Oh, yeah.

The section. Yeah.

It’s yeah. It’s gonna change.

Mhmm. Cool.

But the tough part for me on that one is, that is directly from an ideal client. But yeah.

I mean, that’s why they invested so big. It was our email channel. We figured out the ads game. We’ve figured out the other stuff.

Our email channel is not generating the revenue it should, and we’re tired of leaning on our discounts and our image pretty images. And we wanna go and they were the ones who said, like, copy first. And, you know, so it was and it’s a nine figure plus business, pet meds. I mean, it was just that was from an ideal client is, like, guessing.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it depends on the conversation you wanna have. Right? Like, it depends on, like, how you wanna orient the sales conversation based on why you feel they would hire you.

Like, this definitely makes sense in a broader context.

And if we’re and if we’re gonna operate from, like, the conversation of, like, you’ve had a win, You accept it, and now now let’s make good on it. Then I would continue the conversation on you could agitate it. Right? That could be an option. Or you can move straight into, like, your process of of, like, you know, making good on what do we do after you’ve had a boatload of sales from your discounted push. Right? Yeah.

And then kind of bridge into Oh god.

Don’t worry. I hate that section. Hate that section.

Alright.

Well, we like, Farna’s whatever lesson, and I hate the intro of that.

Now now I can’t not read it. You understand?

It’s the first lines. But, hey. You’re here. I’m am here. Like, who the hell talk like that? I don’t talk like that. Like, stupid.

Am I right? Am I right? Yeah.

This is oh, painful. I can’t even stand you’re looking at it and recording this.

It’s on the record.

Jess wrote, am I right? Record.

Like, you should unlock a badge for the usage of am I right? Like, unlock a new level. Hey. Hey, Sam. Sam’s eyes. What is those eyes?

Like He has piercing eyes.

They’re Actually, when he’s not smiling.

How did you get a testimony from Sam? I didn’t know you had that.

The intensive.

Gotcha. Nice.

Thank you, Andrew, for the comment. I appreciate that.

Cool. Does that give you some enough insight for today, like, to work with and to consider?

Yeah. That’s fine. That’s great.

Thank you.

Awesome.

Thank you all. I appreciate it.

Cool. Cool.

Alright. We are at the hour. So if anyone has to jump off, that is totally cool. Does anyone have any questions or things they urgently needed reviewed?

If so, I’m happy to stick around. So, hi, Andrew.

Could I ask one Oh, oh, oh, you’re I thought you were waving goodbye.

Oh, sorry.

Yeah.

Can I ask one question? You need to keep it running on if not.

But, yeah. So, this is kind of touching back on what we were talking about before, and there was, I think Abby wrote in chat, you know, she wrote, this is why I hate writing for SaaS. How do how do you add dollar and d m l to optimizing workflows?

And so that’s, like, my whole, that’s, like, everything I work with is b to b SaaS and tends to be, like, really technical products, like, data heavy stuff where all the people buying it have, like, data in their title and stuff like that. Mhmm. And something that I struggle with is that as I’m researching the the client, like, all of their materials are written in this, like, very academic language. Everything is optimized, accelerate analytic productivity, this and that. And as I research, I find myself almost getting, like, sucked into that a little bit. And at some point, I go, oh, I get why they came up with this because this is, like, the most accurate summary of what it is. Right?

And they couldn’t they couldn’t find out what it wasn’t a human and specific way to say that that’s, like, completely accurate or something like that.

So I I guess I’m just wondering if you have any tips for how to, not drink the client my client’s Kool Aid. And and then the other thing is that the BOC is like that too because then they go, okay. We really wanna try to, like Mhmm. Like, even the voice of the customer is not always very human.

How to not drink the client’s Kool Aid. I mean, I’ve I’ve drank the client’s Kool Aid and then hated whatever and after the fact. It’s really convincing. Right? Because they’re so authoritative in their Kool Aid, and they’re serving a bit Kool Aid.

So I think, like, the most practical thing I could offer, right, is to not necessarily try to, like, rewrite every aspect of the offer and what it does in more human language, but, like, choose a very specific scenario in which the use case is, like, needed, like, when they know they have the problem. Right? So it’s like like, I mean, taking the example. I know, obviously, like, coaching is very different from SaaS.

Right? But, like, is there a moment when they their workflows were broken? Is there a moment when a project fell through the cracks? Like, if you’re selling project management software, right, it’s like, you know, what are they hearing?

Like, is this done yet? Like, question mark. Like, where is this? Question mark. Like, what is a product manager saying as a follow-up, and then what’s the oh, shit moment?

Right? So it’s like you’re not gonna be able to necessarily capture the entire marketing message, but can you capture a moment in which the software you’re selling would be a solve for it. Right? And just, like, see if that hits and if that resonates, especially on the email or the ad level.

Yeah. That that works. Yeah. That works. And I’ve seen it done well. So I yeah.

Yeah. The email and the ad level are, like, the easiest places to try to, like, weave this in and test it out. Obviously, obviously, landing pages and sales pages that are more static are more difficult.

So, yeah, I I like testing things out in email and ad scenarios where, like, yeah, you have a little bit more leeway.

Cool. Good job. Alright. Thank you.

Sorry to hear that.

Wait. Can I ask one more question, please?

Yeah. Of course.

I meant to ask this earlier, and I totally forgot. What I really like that you do, you do such a good job of coming up with, like, metaphors, And I forgot the one in the example.

Automatic or self operating defibrillator, I think, was Oh, yeah. Was when you Self self applied defibrillator.

Yeah.

And there was another one that you used. I don’t even remember the email. It was ages ago that I read it, and you used the phrase diabetic fruit fly to describe, like, a computer charger, like an old computer. And, like, that I don’t even remember what the rest of the email was about, but that phrase stuck with me. And I haven’t been able to come up with metaphors that are, like, kitschy like that, but, like, actually descriptive and not over the top.

I was wondering if you have, like, how you come up with those, if you have a process or Gosh.

Like, I I have a process for, like, not writing white noisy ones. Right? Like, I do have an aversion to, like, if I write a metaphor the first time and I’m like, I’ve seen that a million times before, like, I will, like, not include that intentionally.

How to come up with the good ones, like so there there’s an orientation towards, like I wanna put something on the page that no one’s read before, like, a combination or a string of words that no one’s read before, and there’s a really real strategic reason. Right? That is reader engagement. That’s some kind of, like, being tuned in to the message. And Right. So, like, how do I actually come up with them?

Just kinda like my brain works in a really strange way. It’s like, I don’t know why I’m thinking of diabetic fruit flies. I really don’t. Like, I’m concerned that my brain goes there.

I used to read so many screenplays, and, like, screenwriters get really crafty in describing scenes.

Like like and you could probably still find a lot of screen screenplays out there. Like and I wouldn’t read classic ones. I’d read the ones from, like, up and coming writers. Right?

Like, I think the blacklist is, like, a really good source for that. I don’t know if it still exists, but, like, yeah, that’s typically where I picked up, like, language patterning is because, like, they’re trying to impress agents. They’re trying to be interesting. They’re trying to be engaging.

Right? And they just come up with, like, really cool and interesting ways of saying things, and it just kind of repatterns, you know, how I think about things at least.

But, yeah, I’d say, like, there’s an intentional orientation around not being white noisy, not being boring, challenging certain ways of saying things. And sometimes that happens on the first pass. Sometimes that comes when I’m rereading it a second or third time and be like, this would be a cool way of saying that. So yeah.

I wish there was a formula. Maybe there is a formula, and I just haven’t discovered it yet.

Maybe I’ll try reading more screenplays.

Yeah.

Cool.

Struggle bus. Gosh. I’ve never talked about the struggle bus.

Ton every sales page for entrepreneurs. Yeah. It’s true.

Cool. Awesome. Any other, questions, comments, or we’re feeling good and complete for today?

Awesome. Well, thanks for your time, everybody. Catch you all soon. Take care.

Thanks, Roy. See you.

Bye,

Awesome. So this is part two of this Deep Craft inner authority, series.

This one is called shadow copy, how to balance virtuous and forbidden desire to elicit your prospects. Full range of f yet, I need this. So this is one that I’ve been, like, saving to teach somewhere for probably at least a year. And I’m like, who can I teach this to? Like, who’s already got a lot of the basics, the foundations and even the intermediate stuff, lockdown, and it’s ripe to talk about some advanced stuff that we just don’t get to talk about very often. So, yeah, I’m excited to share this one. This is part two, part one.

For those who haven’t seen it yet, that was last month, Deep VOC three piercing questions to go beneath the surface.

Not a prerequisite for it, but definitely related. And today’s is shadow copy, and we’ll see if there’s a part three, at some other point. But I love just going into the deeper, more nuanced stuff that is highly practical that just doesn’t get a lot of airtime. So, yeah, that’s kinda my thing, and happy to geek out on all that anywhere.

Slack, call me up, email me. Let’s Zoom. Let’s nerd out on weird deep inner authority stuff that, yeah, no one else really likes to geek out on. So, who is the inner authority?

To me, like, I’ve just defined this nice and simply as, one who knows the prospect better than they know themselves. That is typically the feedback I get when a page does really, really well. It’s like, oh my goodness. You know me better than I know myself.

And what it’s really achieving is it’s exposing and illuminating that which the prospect is unable or unwilling to divulge or articulate themselves. So that’s kind of the mechanism of it.

And what it achieves, it builds trust and resonance through the damn, are you in my head phenomenon or effect.

That’s what I aim to get to, in pretty much everything I write. And it makes sure that your one reader is fully seen on the page or at least more seen than anywhere else on the Internet or than any other competitor is willing to see them.

So that’s a term that gets talked about a lot. It’s like, make sure they’re seen on the page. And I actually wanted to unpack that a little and go a little deeper. What does it actually mean to have your prospect fully seen?

Well, it partly means to have their full range of desires mirrored. That means more than this. Right? To be seen on page also involves their problem, right, their stakes, their situation, their context, all that other stuff.

But in terms of desires, there’s a full range of desire and motivation.

In my view, only one and two really get the most, real estate on a page or explored in one’s research. So these four layers are they’re socially acceptable desires, they’re known and they’re owned desires. So the stuff they know about themselves. This is why I desire this. This is something I’m willing to own and something I’m willing to share.

But everybody, without exception, I would say, I would dare to say, has secret desires and secret motivations, things that they wouldn’t want to say out loud or even confess to themselves. Right? Disowned desires or even unknown desires, things they haven’t even, contemplated about themselves around why they might want something or why they might want to achieve something. So three and four, definitely in that darker, lesser known, disowned territory.

And as a marketer or copywriter, number one and two are really easy to gather and mirror on the page. Right? They appear readily in the VOC and surveys and interviews and message mining because they are known, they are owned, they are socially acceptable, people feel cool and even good in divulging them. So that’s cool.

Number one and two are easy. We got that on lock. Number three and four, more rare, but I would argue definitely no less powerful and maybe even more powerful. Right?

There’s kind of this operating theory that that which gets disowned may have greater pull. Right? And people may not even know why these things pull them. But three and four, definitely strong strong strong motivators.

The unknown, the disowned, and the less socially acceptable desire. So I’m gonna give you a little story from a past life. Two thousand six, two thousand seven, one of my first jobs, like, after I quit corporate life was a personal trainer at a gym.

And one of my roles was to, get people to move from thirty dollars a month memberships to personal training packages. And, you know, very typical sales script, like, what’s your motivation? What are you doing this for?

And almost universally, this is more common in men, actually. Like, men in their thirties and forties, they would say, I just wanna stay in shape. Right? I just wanna maintain. I just want to, yeah, I just want to stay in shape. Right? That was the common language that we almost knew would come without exception.

And it’s easy to sell a thirty dollar per month membership to someone who wants to stay in shape. It’s really difficult to sell a higher ticket, package, right, to someone who just wants to stay in shape. There’s not a lot of charge or a lot of juice behind that motivation. There’s not a lot of stakes behind that motivation. There’s not a lot of drive behind that motivation.

And me and the gym owner and manager and the other people, you know, on the floor and trainers We constantly have these conversations of, like, how do we get people to actually own a wider and a deeper breadth of desire?

And I think I came up with eight words, right, that I just kind of blurted out randomly that became part of our script. Like, it’s cool if you just want to look good. Right? Like eight words.

That’s it. And whenever we would catch someone who wouldn’t own that full desire, that that became part of the script. It’s cool if you just want to look good. Right?

Like, that’s totally acceptable and a fair motivation for doing this. And that would totally flip the conversation because we were taking the lead in owning this disowned desire for them. We made it safe. We gave them permission to actually say what they wanted, maybe even what they were thinking, but didn’t wanna be judged for claiming as a desire.

So all this to say, people are far, far, far, like, I Yeah. I think I put it in caps. Good. I put it in caps because they are far more willing and capable of sharing virtuous and socially accepted politically correct desires than they are. They’re disowned motivators that may actually be driving the decision.

So one thing that we could do as marketers, as copywriters, as salespeople, and offer creators is to give our one reader a permission slip for the full spectrum of their desires. Right? This is a gift we get to give them. Right? It’s cool if this is what you want. It’s cool if this is your main desire driving this decision.

So we claim it on the page for them or the sales call so that they don’t have to so that they can remain in their virtuous, you know, acceptable version of themselves while feeling like our offer and what we’re, enrolling them into, is all inclusive of that more shadowy desire. Does that make sense? Because I’m throwing a lot of terms really quickly. Cool.

Sweet. So let’s do a deeper dive into this topic, shadow desires and virtual desires. So what is the source? Where are these desires coming from?

Shadow desire, you know, the deep, unknown, underworld, subconscious, ego, typically a shadow drive, right? A drive to be better, to be richer, to be more resourced, to look better, to win over. It’s very competition based. It’s very comparative.

It’s rooted in identities they’ve already lived and motivations they’ve already experienced and therefore have a high degree of charge around. Whereas a virtuous desire, they haven’t really lived that person yet. It’s who they’d like to be. It may be an aspirational ideal, but there’s no experiential data and therefore less charge, less emotionality to that virtuous desire.

And if emotions drive decisions, there’s going to be far, far, far, far more stuff driving the decision in that shadow desire.

The orientations of it. Right? The orientation of the shadow desire is typically more selfish. Right?

How it benefits me, how it puts me at an advantage over others. Once again, very competitive based, even zero sum based. I remember, one of my first really big clients in the copywriting space was to write a launch. And it was one of the first times I quoted a really big package to do the full spectrum of a launch.

And he was saying the whole time, I just want to hire the best. I just want to have the best launch. I just really want to blow this out of the water, right? You know?

And, like, I asked him, like, why is this important to you? Right? Like, because it felt like there’s a lot of charge there beyond just the business doing well.

Right? And his desire was, I don’t like the people who are essentially owning this space right now. I feel like my stuff is better, and my end result is I I wanna be ahead of them in a year from now. I want my name to be the household name in this space.

Right? Competition based. Right? And it took him a while to own that and to state that and to admit to that.

But that was what was driving him signing off on a big copywriting project on the first launch he was doing on a program. So these things are at play, and they don’t necessarily need to be unearthed in every conversation, but we can mirror it on the page in our copy.

Orientation for virtuous desire, typically, it’s going to be altruistic, right, where they’re kind of deflecting it for someone else, for the greater good, for their families.

And there’s truth to this, but it’s not the totality of truth.

Riskiness, right? To own and to admit a shadow desire tends to have a high degree of risk, right? You kind of risk being judged, right? Because these aren’t things that people typically state out loud, right?

These are things that get filtered. And almost rightfully so, it’s really difficult to maintain great friendships and relationships if if you go around talking about your shadow desires. So, high risk in them owning it, and therefore, what a relief when it’s on the page and they don’t have to own it and claim it for themselves. Virtual desire, virtually no risk at all.

Right? They almost look good and sanitized, right, in claiming just their virtual virtuous desire.

Awareness on a shadow desire, it could be totally disowned, or it could be unknown completely, and we’re the first ones to really make them say, you’re right. That is why I want that.

Virtuous desire is something that is readily owned and already there within awareness. So when we’re talking about a sales page or an email that really captivates and draws an interest and intrigue, if we’re mirroring back something that’s already known to them, that’s great. They feel seen on the page. But if we’re the ones to expose a part of them, it’s like, oh, shit. That is there. Right?

Now we’ve really hooked them in on something cool and interesting. So awareness, typically disowned on a shadow desire. Permission, certainly less permissible for them to own a shadow desire or admit to it. High permission, full permission, unvirtuous.

Core emotions, typically on a shadow desire, we’re working in the realms of lust, greed, pride, competition, retribution. Right? Show them, get back at them, prove something to somebody, virtuous desire, joy, love, and cooperation. So there’s a lot going on here.

You can screenshot it, just as a reference point.

But this comes into, yeah, full clarity when we actually start looking at examples, and it’s pretty simple to pull off once you start getting the hang of it.

So examples.

I just kinda crafted this one because I know Abby was working with, a bookkeeper, a client who is working with bookkeepers to leave their nine to five, start a profitable business. So this is like this could apply to anything that teaches people to go freelance. Right? So shadow desire, maybe to be crazy rich, be better than those stuck in the nine to five.

Right? How many people wanna go freelance and feel like they’re getting ahead of the people who aren’t there yet? Right? That is so out there and so rarely claimed.

Right? Give the proverbial f u to a boss that they hate, that always makes makes them work late, and slacks them on the weekend while they’re on family time. So all this would be in the realm of shadow desire.

Virtuous desire, this is what you’ll typically find right in the VOC, right, or on an interview, you know, to provide more for their family, to double their salary, enjoy a flexible schedule that allows them to pick up their kids from school at lunch and take them to Chipotle for a burrito. We don’t have Chipotle in Canada. So I kind of, like, always talk about Chipotle because it’s one of my personal personal unlived desires for more Chipotle in my life. So anyway, just keeps making its way there.

Fitness coach, right? Same thing.

Like virtuous desire, stay in shape. Like, those were the three dreaded words. Being able to play with my kids without getting tired. That is another one, like, you hear all the time.

Get a stamp of approval on annual health checks. Right? All virtuous desires shadow desires. Right? They wanna turn heads, you know, be attractive, all these things that, like, are right there that they just don’t want to claim. So this is really how it works, balancing out the shadow desires and the virtuous desires.

And the problem with virtuous desires is it leaves a whole lot left to be desired. It is incomplete. It is not entirely true. It’s only what our social selves want others to know about our motivations, but that we know is not our true or our complete motivation. So our job as marketers, just because our prospect is leaving it out doesn’t mean we should leave it out as well. So a simple template bringing this all into practice, for weaving in the shadow and virtuous desires.

Really simple. So this is a piece of copy you could put in your moment of highest tension section of the fifteen or sorry, moment of highest pleasure section of the fifteen point sales page in a day formula if you’re using, that template from ten x sales pages or in the desire section within any ADA formula you’re using. This would be something to weave into the desire section.

And it’s simple. So it’s not just about, you know, shadow desire one, two, or three. Right? Or or it’s not about forbidden one, two, or three.

And then validate it. Right? Say, it’s totally cool. If that’s what you’re striving for, we’ll stand with you in that.

Right? So give them permission. That’s the permission slip.

And then say it’s about virtuous desire one, two, three, so that. So it’s kind of a sandwich there. Right? You’re introducing the shadow desires and saying it’s not just about that.

You’re validating it for them, permission slip, and then leaving the desire off. So the last thing you write is the things that they want to feel, like those were their, driving motivations. So let’s look at an example.

So back to the fitness one.

So this is not just about, you know, the shadow desires of filling your iPhone’s camera roll with shirtless gym selfies and loving what you see, and it’s definitely not about the secret satisfaction you’ll get and being the only dad at the camping trip rocking a six pack instead of binge drinking ruined. That reads a little weird, but it makes sense. But hey, don’t let anyone judge your motivations for getting healthy. We’ll celebrate you and whatever gets you moving.

And then the virtual virtuous ones. But at its core, this program is about feeling more strong, vital, and confident in in your body at forty than you did at twenty, setting an exam setting an epic example for your kids and knowing that you’ve set yourself up to stay lean, fit, and healthy while most succumb to a state of slow and controlled erosion. So, you honor the shadow desires. You give them the permission slip, and then you tell them what it’s really about in a way that they would feel good and virtuous in enrolling.

So that’s what it looks like. Very simple, worksheet for you. It’s really just listing what the acceptable, safe, virtuous desires are, listing the forbidden ones.

And this can come through your VOC, it can come through your interviews, or it could come what you believe would be true and lurking, beneath the surface, just based on your knowledge of your audience.

And then essentially, craft it into this formula. Right? It’s not just about shadow one, shadow two, shadow three. Validate it and then share it’s about those virtuous desires.

And just see what that looks like and how that reads as a desire section, on a sales page, on an email, and test it out. You might be surprised in how it flows and just the responses you get, once your reader feels more fully seen on the page. So I think that’s all we got. Twenty minutes.

I’m getting good at these short presentations.

Sort of.

Cool. Any questions, thoughts, comments? We could definitely continue the conversation if y’all have further thoughts on how to elaborate on that or how you might see it applying for the work you do.

I have a question.

Mhmm.

It’s gonna be the same question probably that I ask you every time. Yes. But there was a very, very brief moment in time when my boss didn’t really, supervise me that much. So I was able to try more creative things, but nothing as creative as this because anytime you try to introduce this negative language in SaaS, you get hit with a that’s going to make people feel bad.

So my question is, how do you water this down? I And you’re you’re not gonna like to to answer this kind of question. But what kind of ways could you water this down so it’s still palatable for more of a corporate audience?

Yeah. So it’s a spectrum. Right? I think, like, the core of this is, like, what are the desires that are just a little less safe than the safe ones.

Right? And that are true most of all. Right? So it’s like, there’s no part of this that is shaming or making them feel bad, right?

It’s just saying this isn’t just about X, Y, and Z, and those X, Y, and Zs are the things that they actually want, that the reader really, really wants.

So you’re disowning that desire with them, right, and then wrapping it up with the things that are more acceptable.

So I wouldn’t go extreme with it. I wouldn’t use languaging, especially on the darker, more competitive edges of being so much better than someone else. You could definitely rein in that language.

But what are some of those things that they want that they’re kind of afraid to admit out loud, right? And see what’s a safe version of that, like the five on ten. If the virtuous desires are the one on ten on safety, just make the shadow desires a three or four on ten and see if you can push the envelope to that level.

So what might you say for somebody who’s a middle manager? Because that’s gonna be, like, the most typical audience. Like, a middle manager in sales, or a middle manager in project management or whatever it might be? What’s what might be language that you could use for them? Because nine times out of ten, that’s the person I’m talking to.

Yeah. So, like, what do they want out of the product? Like, what are they buying it for?

Usually, to have more efficiency, more control over their team, get rid of admin, make things more efficient. This is very generally speaking for a variety of different companies, but that’s sort of the concept.

So yeah.

Like, and what does it look like once those are achieved? Right? Is there, like do they get kinda, like, a special bonus on that? Do they get to, wrap up their days earlier because efficiency is in place and admin tasks are off their plate?

Right? So, like, that would be and I’m not saying that this is the accurate desire, but it would be like, this isn’t just about, you know, getting, you know, a glowing review from your, you know, higher ups, and getting to check out on weekends because everything is fully dialed in. Right? And enjoying your, you know, workout without being tethered to your phone.

Right? However that appears for them. This is about x, y, and z. So, like, the shadow desires are still in that play it safe range.

They’re just really kind of like giving a bit more of their selfish motivations, right, versus the altruistic or the company and for the team motivations, if that makes sense.

Okay. Especially if they’re the the decision maker. Right? To get them in touch with some of their more personal, quote unquote, selfish motivations without making them feel selfish for wanting it. Like, that’s the key for it. Make them feel like this will help them achieve what they really want selfishly without them having to feel selfish for wanting it, if that makes sense.

Interesting.

So let’s take let’s take a monday dot com example because that’s the most well known. Monday dot com being a competitor of Asana and Trello and Wrike, and all these other project management tools.

Instead of saying something along the lines of, if you have a spreadsheet with seventeen tabs open and you are tired of reading through long in long email threads, and you feel overwhelmed, or the reverse, the virtuous, which would be you can be a better team manager and help your team members and be more efficient and hit more business goals.

What would sort of be the middle ground there?

So project manager. Right? Like, so so I’ve worked with many project managers, like, who’ve managed me as a copywriter, right, both, you know, internally and also, like, I’ve worked closely with project managers on teams I’ve kinda, like, implanted myself into during bigger launches.

And, you know, one piece of feedback, like, I’ve given project managers who are really dialed in, right, and really streamlined on their process and systems is, like, you know, no project I’ve been on has ever run more smoothly. Right? Like, that’s the feedback they love getting. Like, be the project manager that every freelancer loves working with, right?

That taps into their sense of pride, right? Pride being one of those emotions we talked about for shadow desires.

So pride is a good one to work with as well, because it’s a little more acceptable than competitiveness You don’t need to always go to competitiveness.

But what would make that project manager who’s using Monday feel really good about themselves? Like when they go home and they have dinner with their partner or their spouse, what are they saying? Like, so and so said this about me. Right?

And they’re confiding that to their spouse because that’s that feels safe. Right? But how can we incorporate that into our copy, if that makes sense?

So, like, just what are those little moments that you can Yeah.

It almost sounds like you’re like, all of the benefits that you typically see on a sales page, like, be more efficient, get more ROI, be a better be a better manager. It’s almost like instead of saying, like, the actual benefit, say, be the person that people say this about.

Yeah. Exactly.

Benefit, but just Yeah. Framed it.

Because that’s what they really want. Right? That they can’t say out loud. Yeah. Yeah.

That is a very cool point.

Mhmm. Yep. And you can make the language as, like, safe as it needs to be for any industry. It’s just really about the, quote, unquote, more selfish, personally driven desires for the thing.

Okay. I like it.

Cool.

I have a quest a question.

Let me come on camera. Sorry. So so talking about that and, you know, safe language and and how to weave this in. So assuming you have, like, a big tech you know, like, enterprise tech. Right?

Mhmm.

This is not something where we’re you’re doing sales letter type stuff, and it’s a it’s a they they they live in a completely different universe, and it’s a little bit more buttoned up. So Of course. But I have this situation where I have a product. And the thing is people are really afraid of if they choose the wrong vendor, they’re gonna lose their job, you know, because it’s a it’s a mission critical service.

Right.

So how how have you ever had a situation where you’re working in something like that? Because that’s really what is going on under the surface. They’re they’re, you know, they’re afraid of of they’re afraid of losing their job if they choose the wrong company.

Mhmm. And what’s the upside if they choose the right company?

That’s a good question. I hadn’t you know?

I I guess I’ve been worrying about, like, how to get past this fear that they have of choosing.

Mhmm. It’s that it’s that old thing of, like, you know, nobody ever got fired for hiring IBM. You know? Yeah.

That Right.

The upside would be that nothing happens, really. It’s quiet and everything works well.

I mean, you know, no more no more support calls, no more, you know, emergency meetings because some country is having lag time or whatever.

Yep. For sure.

I mean, this copyright, I’m guessing, like, the one making the decision, right, their main desire is simply to make the right decision, right, in this case. Right?

It it is. Yeah. Yeah. It is. I I mean, some of there’s a certain sub sub segment that’s motivated by, you know, being cutting edge and being on the bleeding edge with technology and doing the latest and greatest thing.

Yeah.

But that’s that’s a certain percentage.

You know, those are the people that tend to those would be, I’d say, like, the ideal customer avatar. You know? The ones that are that wanna be on the bleeding edge are the ones that are an easier sell.

Yep.

It’s the question is how to get those other ones.

Yeah.

Yeah. I’d say, like, this copy is definitely or this kind of format and template is definitely meant for a specific context where the one reading it is the one who stands to benefit, right, and therefore they’re owning their desires, how would we work that principle, right, into, into that enterprise environment? That’s a great conversation. Right?

I think it’s, like, just wherever we can identify any desires that they haven’t claimed yet. Right? And this is mostly going to come out in kinda like the one to one communication, I’m guessing. Right?

Not necessarily on, like, the page.

Yeah. Like, I think I think a fair question is, like, what does it look like when you’ve made the right decision? Right? Like, how is that celebrated? Like, how do you feel when like, maybe it’s literally just watching the new new tech be integrated and having a sense of pride in it, right, that they let it, that they champion it. Right?

Getting to talk about that, right, that they kind of, like, championed and spearheaded this new initiative. Right? So it’s probably more pride, I would say.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Pride that their due diligence and their decision was behind, you know, a multi six figure, you know, reconfiguration of something. Right? And getting to watch that in real time as it gets kind of implemented. So I would tap into the pride aspects, and, yeah, have that conversation, like, with that kind of audience of, How does this actually play out in real time?

And what are the moments within that that feel really good, really validating? So I think feeling validated is also really important for people, you know, in that position because validation brings the security that they really want. Right? That they’ve really cemented their place within the organization because of this thing that they helped, you know, usher in.

So I suppose, you know, performance KPIs would would be something that would be a a tangible outcome, you know? And that’s not like an ROI thing. It’s like a, you know, uptime performance and stuff like that. So technical those technical performance KPIs, I guess.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. That makes sense. I think, like, the simplest version of it, and every context has its own nuances. Right?

Mhmm. Yeah. Especially in what that person could admit at lab. Right? A middle manager who’s making that decision might not even answer the question of, like, you know, why do they really desire to do this?

I mean, this would be a VP or a c level person.

You know? A CTO, CIO, the Yeah.

Director of engineering, that kind of Yep.

You know?

Yeah. I think, like, for what a successful decision and implementation means for them in their career and their sense of pride in their position pride in their position and also, like, cementing their status in the organization is probably probably gonna be something to play with, and it’s very nuanced in how you communicate.

Sort of like be the one be the one responsible for for your company’s zero downtime or something like that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, a headline that comes to mind. Right? And I’m not saying that we use headlines in this context, but it would be kinda like, you know, you know, this will be on your LinkedIn profile by June, right? Like some big thing that they led. Like that’s what they would be doing with you. Exactly.

Yeah. Like imagine this on your LinkedIn profile, right? Yeah.

So yeah, pride and accomplishment. Definitely play with those two.

Okay. Thank you.

What comes out of it. Thank you.

Hey, Ryan. I have a question. I feel like I work, you know, with, like, the coaches and and course creators where you might have already used this.

I like, I, I really like this technique. Just writing down like the seven deadly thins as ideas for places to find, the shadow desires.

But I guess, like, in the context of helping people make money online Mhmm. Like, is so the shadow desire in that is what they’re gonna do with the money or what they will be able It’s why they want it.

Why they want it. Okay. So I wrote I wrote the three that I came up with were like, this isn’t just about making yourself so personally secure that if your partner emptied your bank accounts and walked out the door tomorrow, you’d be like, solid for the next six months?

Yeah.

Having a program that your clients save rave so much about, they’re even talking about it inside other people’s coaching containers. Mhmm.

I don’t know. That one fell down. I was like, and out earning your early mentors so that your nervous system finally recognizes unequivocally that you’ve made it to the top?

That’s so good. I got chills on the last one. Right? Because it, like, brings in the competitive aspect, and it does so really art really artfully. Right? It’s not just like, crush your competitors.

Like, it’s not so, like, on the nose.

But but competition is a really good one when you can weave it in artfully, right?

Because that’s a really difficult one for people to own.

And I’ve never met anyone who was a hundred percent hundred percent altruistic and cooperative, right? It’s on a spectrum. It’s not like you’re either cooperative or competitive. It’s always on a spectrum. And even if you’re like eighty percent, you know, cooperative, rooting for everybody, there are these shadow parts of us that just want to win. Right?

For the most part, I don’t wanna overgeneralize. Right? So when you could speak to that, even if that’s, like, fifteen percent of who they are, right, or who they’re operating as, it’s such a charged fifteen percent.

And that’s what we’re looking for. Right? The charged part that’s really gonna make the decision.

So I guess my question is like, okay. Two parts. One, because I’m, like, writing about my own audience feels easy.

But do you have any tips for, like, is there a question you could ask in the voice of customer research or like teasing these out of other people’s audiences?

So one thing I mean, I I feel like I always return to this. Right? It’s the sales calls and the sales call recordings, and I’ve consulted with sales teams for, you know, the offers that I’m writing for. Mhmm.

So it’s like, first step, I’ll usually audit those calls. Right? And sometimes you’ll get a hint of that as like, well, why do you really want that? Why is that important? So kind of like those layers of why will sometimes reveal it.

Oftentimes, it’ll only partially reveal it, and then it’s my own kinda, like, empathetic nature, right, that will kinda read between the lines, right, of what they really want, right, but that they’re not actually saying.

So it’s rare that I’ll get this verbatim in VOC or an interview.

A lot of it will be, like, a person who said x, what do they really mean, and what do they really want? Right? And it’s me just kind of, like, bringing it to that level.

And that’s my favorite part about the research phase. Right? Like, it’s easy to get the stuff that’s verbatim. Right?

That’s already there. Right? I’m like, but what does this really mean? A person who said x, what are they really feeling but aren’t divulging?

And that’s usually where, the gold comes from. So, the short version of it is, yeah, sales calls, sales call audits, consulting with the sales team, even consulting with sometimes the customer service manager, if they’re really kind of, like, you know, involved day in and day out with, those students or with those clients, sometimes they’ll get that kind of rich detail that is, like, amazing. So even, like, thirty minutes or forty minutes with the customer success manager.

And they typically love being involved because marketing rarely loops them in even though they should be looped in. So yeah.

Okay. I can I can totally confirm that?

I’ve gotten some amazing insights from customer success Right.

That I never got from sales because they work with them long term. And so sometimes they can see those benefits play out and I never thought to bring in customer success.

I just brought her in because she was really smart and helpful and was was willing to talk to me, and Mhmm.

Like, she gave gold that I was never able to find in the discovery calls on Gong.

Yeah. That’s amazing.

Yeah.

And they yeah. They typically love being looped in because they just have so much to share and, like, no one listens.

Like, I once had a call that had, like, the head of sales, like, the director of sales and the director of customer, success, and, like, it’s like they barely talked to each other, right? I think that’s the first time they were in the same room, like in months, and they were learning things about each other’s departments in real time, and it was so cute. I’m like, Y’all don’t talk, ever?

Yeah. And there’s sort of a hierarchy within go to market teams, and it goes like, sales, customer success, marketing, sales engineer.

So, like, if you can talk to people lower down on the hierarchy, they’re more excited to Oh, totally.

Yeah. They’re like, my opinion matters. Yay. Yep. Exactly. Great point.

But the thing I just wanted to ask is, like, in I guess it’s similar to what, Naomi was asking, but, like, when you are dealing like, you know, on the online coaching space, there’s a whole, like, oh, but talking to pain points is yucky or, like, icky thing. Mhmm. Like, I guess I don’t know. I I don’t know what the question is there, but just I’m, like, getting customers or, like, clients on board with this. Like, have you ever had any pushback to somebody being, like, that’s too I don’t know. It makes the client uncomfortable to use these kind of techniques.

So the only time I’ve ever gotten pushback on this specific technique is when I personally overindulged and took it too far. Right?

Just because sometimes I enjoy writing shit. And I’m like, okay. Maybe this is a little too far from reality. Right?

And it needed to be reined in. Right? So it’s like, as much as possible, like, keep it once again within that threshold, right, of what is safe and appropriate for that industry and for that client and for their voice.

But, yeah, the only pushback I’ve ever got was when I took too many liberties on what was actually true and accurate and real. So you’re really trying to still keep it grounded in realism. Like, what is a person’s desires, like, legitimate desires for this, that they’re unlikely to be tuned into themselves or divulge even if it were true. Right?

But you don’t want to make assumptive leaps that are just too far out of reality. Right?

So it’s like in the example that you wrote, can you can you, like, read it out loud again?

Like, I just wanna Just the last one about out earning your early mentors.

Yep.

So that your nervous system finally recognizes unequivocally that you’ve made it to the top.

Yeah. Like, I don’t think you would get pushback on that cause that is such a legitimate desire, and you’re connecting it to overcoming that pain point of feeling anxious and destabilized in your career and your standing within it. Right? Like, and what you can do when you have pushback, right, is once again, like, you could link back that statement to voice of customer data that suggests that without saying it. Right? Like, someone who divulged this on the VOC or on this survey, they’re not saying this, but do you see the congruence, how someone who’s saying this would be experiencing this? Right?

So, yeah, I think, like, being being able to match match the shadow desire to what’s actually divulged and be like, no. This is actually is our data.

We’re just kind of revealing what isn’t being said or what’s being said between the lines.

Yeah. And how do you, well, it’s so powerful powerful because like everybody’s be everybody’s speaking to like, you want to make more money, but like, it’s really stand out to be like, we’ll be And, and we know that these are the reasons why.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That that’s a really powerful exercise in kinda make more money offers, right, is, like, the why. Like, what happens when they make more money, right, versus just a claim of make more money or double your salary.

Like, once again, white noise, and it just doesn’t connect to the actual experience of having more money. Right? And typically, it comes back down to security and survival related things. Right? Most things go back to security and survival, and nervous system, you know, regulation, as you mentioned. So, yeah, really great conversation.

And how do you how do you make those judgment calls? Because I consider myself a pretty intuitive person. Mhmm. But making these kind of judgments for people, that you’ve never met, can be a very difficult exercise.

Yeah. So so intuitive leaps when necessary. Right? Obviously, we’re not going to be in constant conversation with the prospects we’re writing for. Right? Sometimes we’re literally just, like, dealing with the data and the survey results, and all we really have are the intuitive leaps we can make based on what we have.

My defense for that is, like, you know, transcribing BOC is really easy. Right? I could do that, and I want us to write a ten on ten sales piece here. Right?

I wanna write something that hits a point that no one else is hitting that could help that prospect, that one reader feel fully seen here where no one else is willing to see them. Right? Like, in Katie’s example, like, that reader and that prospect likely will never have seen an ad, an email, or a sales page, or a sales call, or been on a sales call that suggested this is about outpacing their mentors and finally feeling like they’ve made it. Right?

Like, they probably will not have seen that before. And therefore, when that hits, and if it’s true, you just formed a connection that is incredibly powerful there. Right? So there is an intuitive leap based on data and based on hypothesis, and it’s like this tracks, right?

Someone who said this tracks to someone who would have this desire, and I feel good making that leap and putting that on the page, right? And ultimately, that’s the artfulness of it, right? It’s like using your intuition wisely because to me, like, that is still where there’s so much magic in being a copywriter and being a marketer, right? Like, one day AI is going to have all, you know, all the information to just, like, spit it out, and that’s cool and that’s amazing, but where can we use our own kind of intuitiveness to connect us that aren’t so obvious?

Cool. Okay.

Yeah. That is not a dog. That is my child. Casey, we’re hearing that. Okay. Good.

Zoom noise cancellation.

Sweet. Comes in handy. Sweet. Any other questions or comments or thoughts?

I have a non training related question, but happy to defer until if there’s any other questions about the training.

Can I just ask, can you maybe give some throw out some examples of things that aren’t related to pride or maybe related to some of the other, vices?

So not related to pride? Yeah.

Because I feel like pride is an easy one to understand. I’m interested in how it applies to others.

Sure.

So it’s like let me pull back that slide.

I’m revisiting, like, the seven deadly sins is actually a really good idea. So Jo had a framework on that, I believe, like, a long, long, long time ago. I’d ask her if she can dig that back up.

I think it was her fascinations, the seven deadly sins one.

Maybe. Yeah. It’s familiar.

But, Yeah.

I’ve seen it. I just find it hard to apply. I think the concept is very cool, but execution, I find challenging.

Right. Cool. So pride is obvious.

I I use laziness all the time. I use that all the Mhmm. Often.

Mhmm.

Sloth, I guess, would be the technical sin.

Sure.

I think read is a really, really important one if you can, once again, mirror that artfully because that’s a really difficult one for people to believe is true about themselves.

So it’s kind of like, what does greed look like in a way that isn’t so spiky, right, and isn’t so difficult to accept. Right? Because in some ways, like, any make more money offer is somewhat greed based. Right?

And yet those who buy them don’t feel necessarily greedy in buying them, right, or wanting that.

So it’s like greed is where you kind of like when you’re suggesting out earning your mentors, right? That is essentially greed based, right? Greed and competition. I’m kind of like looping those in together right now.

And you make it totally acceptable because physiologically, that gives you a response that feels like you’re returning to safety, right, and turning to nervous system regulation and all those things. So, yeah, so pride, greed, lust, right?

I mean, there’s literal lust and there’s other forms of lust.

You know, kind of like the, you know, the fitness example I just brought, right? Wanting to be desired, wanting to be attractive, right? That is a form of lust.

You know, and it doesn’t even need to be a sexual lust, it could just be lusting to be liked, lusting for approval, right? So when we talked about the project manager, that is kind of a form of a lust for approval.

There we go.

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.

So you’re saying essentially that a lot of it is the same desire sort of packaged in a different way.

Yep. Exactly. It kinda gets filtered through, like, these different lenses of these, you know, more shadowy motivations. Right? Or you can call them, like, the deadly sins.

Like, the difference between pride and lust being that pride emphasizes how good you are, and lust emphasizes how much other people envy how good you are. Mhmm.

Yep.

Yep. Okay.

That’d be a way to put it. So it’s like, that’d be a really cool exercise. Like, I’m just kinda visualizing the framework of, like, there’s desire, and then there’s, like, these seven different kind of filters it gets kind of put through and that can have the same idea articulated in seven different ways.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

Cool. Yeah. Thank you.

I think you’re good, Katie. Sorry.

Thank you, sir. You guys got totally wrapped up trying to remember all seven deadly sins.

But Haven’t you seen the movie seven?

The Bradford?

Yeah. That’s that’s my reference point, not not the Bible.

I I think that’s everyone’s reference point. It’s like and all I think of it is, like, Brad Pitt at the end with the box and, like, what’s he saying? What’s his famous line there?

I don’t remember.

Don’t know, but I was like, Brad. Yep.

What’s in the box? Yeah. I think it’s that. I don’t know.

Anyway.

So I had a client that I wrote a long form sales page for her hybrid course and coaching program.

And now she wants to launch just the course as a DIY downs well, I it’s not it so it was previously conceived as a downsell, but now she wants to launch that as a standalone offer.

Okay.

Like how and she’s she just emailed me saying, do is it a different sales page or do we just cut the group coaching components out of the existing sales page, which is a beast. Like, it’s like the longest sales page I’ve ever written in my life. So I’m curious to your thoughts on, like, a starting point for that.

Yeah. So she sold it as a downsell before. Right?

Yes. But only on a call. So she doesn’t offer that anywhere. And like, she hasn’t launched before. She just has, like, amazing SEO and she gets a tons of leads that way. So this would be her first launch style.

Yep.

The thing, of the DIY.

And it wouldn’t be within the context of them having, like, not bought, you know, the coaching package, right, or the coaching version. Like, this is really fully stand alone, even stand alone in the conversation. Right? Cool. I mean, if the sales page as it was written, speaks to everything that is still true about that audience, their desires, the problems that the product helps overcome, then I think the path of least resistance and even most effectiveness is just retooling that sales page to definitely remove anything that would be delivered only through coaching.

But, yeah, how do you feel about it?

Yeah, I I did like, I mean, definitely there’s gonna be chunks that need to go because, you know, she’s a, like, she’s a trained therapist. So we talked a lot about the benefits of like talking things through in that group container and everything.

Sure.

I guess, I’m just like, is it a different how much does it change the nature of the relationship? Like, I don’t I don’t know. I feel like because the the tone of the sales page was very much like, I’m gonna walk you through this and, you know, we’re gonna have all of these opportunities for feedback. And I’m I’m just wondering if it well, I guess if you’ve ever done anything like that before, like amending an existing sales page to pitch a slightly different version of the product?

Or if you would Yeah.

I haven’t I haven’t done that specific project before.

Yeah, kind of like definitely an accuracy sweep and an edit and a check, like, a hundred percent.

Even things that are implied or insinuated in terms of, like, the level of intimacy and feedback that they’re gonna have, I would definitely be mindful of that.

The things that are, in my view, like, definitely keepable, especially if the audience has resonated with them before and they’re accurate and true is anything that points to the desired outcomes and anything that points to the the current problem states and, you know, how that’s showing up for them. Like, all these things, if they’re accurate and they’ve been resonating, you can probably keep all of that. Right?

Testimonials might be something to, like, really, make sure you’re being accurate as much as possible. Like, try to get testimonials from those who have gone through the DIY. Right? Or if they’ve been private clients or the ones in, like, the coaching, container for it, I would just, like, make a note, right, like, you know, part of the the coaching container, right, to just not have that, yeah, that kind of, like, insinuation, right, that that’s an accurate kind of, like, one for one.

But, yeah, I think, like yeah. If you feel really good about how the copy presents and how it’s been resonating and the edit is a decent sized job, like, to be clear.

But yeah, I’ll just go for Yeah, go ahead.

At first I was thinking of pitching that in a day rate, but I actually feel like it might need the time and like repeated passes of a project versus trying to Yeah.

Okay.

Yep. Yeah.

Yep. I think so.

But what does that look like for you in terms of, like, the multiple passes?

Like, maybe we could just see Just like coming back to it, like, having more than a day to, like, kind of, like, leave it, come back and make sure that I haven’t missed something where they’re talking about a a call or a Yep.

I think, like, the first step of it would be to audit the current page. Right? Like, you know, yellow highlighters of, like, this has to go, this has to go, this has to go. Right?

Mhmm. Especially around, like, the languaging, as you said. And say that, like, in this filter and the sweep, I’m sweeping for x, y, and z. I’m sweeping for, like, accuracy.

What’s still going to be true for insinuation around intimacy and access. Right? So, like, kinda list the things you’re sweeping for and auditing for, make the check, and then kinda, like I would present that to her, right, and then say, like, my the next part of my sweep is to, like, remove these sections, make things more relevant and appropriate for the actual experience.

But, yeah, that’s not a one day thing. That’s multi stage, multi step. But, yep, I think yeah, that’s an interesting project. Keep me posted.

Cool.

I have a question. I’ve, I think I’ve asked this to Joe, but I’m interested to hear your opinion because I’m still struggling with it.

Okay.

In my area, meaning I work with mostly Israeli companies because I’ve been working in Israeli tech scene for five years, and so my whole network is here. Mhmm.

And I think that’s relevant because the Israeli tech scene is like, the whole tech scene is struggling, but Israel is struggling a little bit more because there’s less investments because of the ongoing war.

Sure.

So that means marketing budgets are even lower than they would be elsewhere.

Mhmm.

And so more and more companies that I talk to are cutting their paid media budget and putting more effort into social selling, meaning organic social media posts, but they’re calling it social selling because they’re putting a lot more of a strategic emphasis on it than they would have five years ago, or even three years ago.

So my background is more in acquisition, more in demand gen, optimizing landing pages, optimizing web copy, really very, very conversion focused. Mhmm. But the vast majority of people that I talk to are interested in more organic content.

Mhmm.

And so I’m wondering if it’s worth like, we don’t know what the future holds. Right? We can’t necessarily predict, where the market or where the geopolitical scene will be in the next six to twelve months.

But I’m grappling with the idea of, like, I’ve already taken on some of these clients, and I’ve learned a lot about these different forms of content.

I’m wondering how much should I be considering shifting my positioning as a company, to accommodate what I see as a shift in the market, or should I continue with this very conversion focused angle that I’ve been taking?

Yeah. That’s interesting. There’s, like, a few variables at play. Right? One of them you already kinda highlighted is, like, is this shift more kind of, like, temporary and seasonal and cyclical?

Or for all you know, right, or maybe once they’re in that, the ROI, right, is gonna be better than their other paid media channels, and they’re gonna wanna continue, amplifying that channel. So I think there’s variable number one is, like, how confident are you that the demand for that is going to continue and increase?

Right? Like, give that a confidence score on a scale of one to ten. Like, if it’s over seven, right, like, maybe yes or at least making that part of your official services and offerings, would be wise, especially if you think that they’re going to continue, wanting more of an organic presence, right, and more strategies around that.

The next variable I would consider is how necessary is it for you to position yourself as that to gain business in that? Because it sounds like those conversations are already happening just just like in your network, right? And that as long as you’re available to it, you’re going to get those projects anyway. So like, if that’s low importance, then I would wait a little bit, right? I wouldn’t, like, reposition yourself, so immediately. Like, wait to see where that trend line is heading, especially if you don’t need to reposition yourself to get that business, if that makes sense.

Yeah. That’s a really good point because it’s not like, like, it’s not goo Google is gonna disappear. Obviously not. Yeah.

Mhmm. But what I see is it’s becoming more and more common for, or it’s becoming more relevant for larger companies. So if you’re thinking in the VC world, you have series. Right?

Like, series a, series b, series c, series d.

And series a is, like, they still don’t they still haven’t finished building the product. Series b and c is, like, they’ve sort of hit product market bit, but they’re still growing. Series d and beyond is, like, they’ve got their shit together. They’re, like, they’re moving. Like, they have they have somewhat of a working workflow.

And I think that series d is sort of, like, seven hundred employees plus in mind. Right. Like, roughly speaking.

So it’s more like series d and up, where they’re really starting to ramp up their paid media channels. But by the time they reach that five, they probably have enough resources in house to manage that kind of CRO. And so, they’re not really looking to outsource it as much.

And so, I’ve gotten lots of job offers for that kind of position, but a lot newer freelancing the only really freelance opportunities I’ve got is from a reseller, actually, by Monday dot com.

So it’s a very, very different kind of company than the actual fast company.

Right.

And, obviously, the budget is small Sure. For paid media.

Mhmm.

Because if if it’s small, then there’s only so many landing pages they’re gonna have. They’re only gonna have, like, two, three campaigns.

Right.

But I think that I think it makes sense that, like, these because, especially, like, we talk a lot about, oh, am I a copywriter? Am I a conversion? Like but, like, clients don’t care about that language. Like, especially in a non English speaking they just give us content.

Like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, content is content. And content is emails and content is social and content is blog. Like, they they don’t think that way.

I’m actively imagining my Israeli uncle responding to that conversation right now in his very Israeli uncle y voice. Yeah.

Exactly. Like, there’s no word for copywriter in Hebrew. It’s.

What is this? I don’t care. I don’t care.

Exactly. Okay. You got it. You got it.

I get it.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. So I think that that’s how, like it’s helpful to think, like, if you have to make that dilution, you don’t necessarily have to make it now.

Mhmm.

Is what I’m taking from that.

Yep. Exactly.

Does that, give you something to move with or feel a little bit more sweet?

Awesome. Yeah.

I would add on to that too. It’s also, you know, instead of changing positioning, it’s you’re it’s more like, you know, the right thing to do at the right time and you’re responsive and savvy to what’s going on. You know? Does that make sense?

I mean, look, a girl’s gotta eat. Sometimes you just gotta take the grudges to come to you.

I know how savvy it is, or it’s just like, you know, I wanna Making sure you can eat is savvy.

Not that I owe my last dollar, but, like, I’m not at the point where I’m regularly turning away large amounts of work.

Awesome.

Cool. We feeling good for today?

Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Well, enjoy your long weekends for those taking long weekends.

I’m really hungry now all of a sudden. I’ll just talk about Chipotle and eating and, yeah, that’s my plan. So, yeah, catch you all on Slack. Hit me up if you have any follow-up questions on this as you begin to consider it or implement it.

Definitely here for it. Cool. Thanks, everybody. Take care. Bye.

Thank you.