Category: mindset
Make Your Product a No-Brainer for Your ICP
Direct Comparisons: Make Your Product a No-Brainer for Your ICP
Transcript
Anyway, here we are with plan b. What’s going to happen here is I will be, sharing all the hows, the what’s, the whys, all the theories, some examples of how to leverage direct comparisons in your copy.
And if you have any questions on anything I share here today, if you want some help or a second set of eyes on how you’ve applied this to some copy you’re working on at the moment, or if you wanted to even talk about how we could take this practice from the world of copywriting and apply it to, for example, your sales calls, please just tag me in Slack and let me know. I would absolutely love to work through this kind of stuff with you. So don’t be shy in reaching out if you would like some help or some support. That’s exactly what I’m here for. Okay. On that note, let’s dive into the meat, of the workshop. Let me share my screen with you.
So as you know, today’s session is all about how to leverage direct comparisons to make your offer a really easy yes for your ideal prospect.
So very much building on this month’s theme of straight line copywriting.
Now the best place to start with this stuff is to really highlight the fact that when it comes to decision making, our brains absolutely love comparisons.
Why? Well, quite simply it’s because they allow us to assign value to the options that are in front of us and therefore make a really informed decision.
They help appease the rational part of our brain. If you’ve ever read Thinking Fast and Thinking Slow, you’ll know that, we typically make decisions, relating to all sorts of things, including what to purchase based on the rational part and the emotional part of our brain. So there are two different systems at play. Comparisons really appeal to that rational part of your prospect’s brain. Because what they allow us to do very easily is have a justification for why we’ve made the purchasing decision. And importantly, it’s one that your prospect can really easily share with others in their life.
So if the offer that you’re writing copy for is something where your prospect will need to justify their decision to perhaps their boss or their team, maybe their spouse, maybe their friends, maybe their peers, This tactic and this approach of leveraging direct comparisons is actually incredibly beneficial because it gives people the data which they can easily use for that purpose. Right? They feel really confident in sharing why they chose this offer above, other options on the market or why they think this will actually work when perhaps previous purchases in the same realm have not delivered the outcome that they were after. So keep that in mind, as we move forward from here.
Now, of course, we’ll be talking about how direct comparisons apply to the kind of offers that you’re writing copy for. But I think just to get you in the headspace of getting a feel for or realising how these things come into play in everyday life.
We want you here for a minute to think about the bread aisle at your local supermarket.
Now, depending on where you are in the world and how big your city or your town is, your supermarket bread section may not look like this.
The one up the road from me here in Sydney absolutely does. I would say it’s probably even larger than this. There must be close to a hundred different options at least, of bread. Now if you are to leave this recording and go and ask your housemate, your partner, your kid if they’re old enough, hey like what what kind of bread do you choose when you go to the supermarket and can you tell me why?
I guarantee you they are going to have a list of factors in there that are comparative. So that are comparing their bread of choice to other options that are there on the shelf. So for example, and it’s quite sad that I know this much detail about my husband, but I know that whenever he goes to the supermarket, the loaf that he chooses is always just the generic supermarket brand wholemeal bread. And I know that he chooses that because he likes it.
It has more fiber than white bread, right? He’s healthier moves things along, I guess.
And also he likes it because it has less, of those, like, seedy or grainy bits compared to, the whole grain bread. Also, I know that he likes it because of the size of the slices and the way that they fit into our oldest kids lunchbox.
So as I’m talking through this, I mean, yes, those are no pedantic things to be thinking about, but that’s how he justifies his decision. That’s how he has watched the place of knowing that that is his top choice of life. Now, of course, the reasons that you have or the reasons that the people in your life might have for their particular choice of bread are going to be different because different things matter to different people.
The point is that if you drill down enough into someone’s choice of bread, you will get to a point where they are able to articulate why they choose it in relation to other options. So how they think their choice of loaf is different and better than other things that they could have chosen instead.
So the point that I’m trying to make here is that value is relative, right? So it only exists in relation to other options and it’s also subjective. So what matters to me is going to be different to what matters to you in most cases.
So this means that we’re better able to illustrate the value of an offer when we actively compare it to options instead of talking about it in isolation, honing in on the aspects that actually matter to our ideal prospect, right, rather than trying to prove some sort of global superiority.
So two really important points here. Right? We need to compare options to other available alternatives, right, in order to help someone understand in a really concrete, aidable way why something is a different and better option for them given what they value in the thing that we’re talking about.
Now it’s really important that when you are leveraging direct comparisons in your copy, you are really focused on what actually matters for your ideal prospect. If you try and take this a step above and go sort of a step higher and you try to prove some sort of global superiority, like, well, this is simply just the best offer on the market for anyone, you’re going to get tripped up. Because of course, the thing that makes your offer the best fit for your ideal prospect is going to make it not the best fit for the people who aren’t your ideal prospect. Right?
And that’s good. That’s why niches exist. That’s why specificity sells. Right? I also think there is a mindset hurdle that you would also come up against if you were to try and prove that your offer is just absolutely the best flat out regardless of who it’s serving.
So really stick to what the data tells you about your ideal prospect, what they care about, and how your offer responds to that, or how your offer serves those things, those points of difference.
So on that note, if you are not already asking this question in your voice of customer research, start.
How does insert your offer compared to other insert the category of your offer things you’ve tried or thought about trying before? So for example, how does CopySchool Professional compare to other copywriting masterminds you’ve tried or thought about trying before?
How does ConvertKit or KIP I think they are now calling it compare to other email marketing platforms you’ve tried or thought about trying before?
Asking this question alone will get you such rich data and will get you all the information you need to actually go ahead and make really effective comparisons in your copy. It will unearth who your competitors are and also how your offer is different and better in the ways that matter who your ideal prospect. So this question unearth some absolute gold. So if you’re not already asking it, again, please start folding it into your research process.
If you’re looking at this and you’re thinking, oh, that doesn’t quite fit with the project I’m working on, because I know that my ideal prospect hasn’t actually invested in a solution, for this problem or this challenge or to work towards this outcome before, this question may serve you better. What stopped you from getting help with this kind of thing before? So what this will do is help you pinpoint and uncover objections or perceived faults or flaws with available offers that ideally your offer can speak to. Right? You can say, oh, well, actually, you know, you might be worried about x. Here’s what our offer does in that respect that is different and better. So what you’re doing here is making a really clear case for your offer in a great fit in all the ways that matter.
Now I wanna show you a real world example of what this looks like, so you can see how easy and how powerful it is in copy.
So what you’re looking at here, is a spreadsheet I’ve just exported from one of my type forms, a bunch of responses to this question, which is one that has existed historically in my feedback form for a copywriting course that I’ve recently retired.
So don’t worry. I’m not trying to sell you on this. It’s just, it’s just a really good example of direct comparisons. And I think because we are mostly copywriters in here, it might be helpful because you probably know some of these competitors. Right? And certainly you will know copy school.
So as you can see here, the question I ask in the survey is how did it compare to other copywriting courses you’ve taken. Right? So I’m asking about how this offer compared to other offers in the same category.
So you can probably already see that even where there are no competitors mentioned or where there are no direct comparisons drawn, There’s some really juicy, voice of customer here that I can obviously leverage to help someone offer through testimonials. So even the second response here, like brain camp is the only copywriting course you need. That’s a very powerful headline to be able to leverage somewhere. It’s a very powerful point of social proof. And often, you know, down here, you know, Braincamp is where I’m with the best copywriting course I’ve ever taken.
I did something strange there. There we go. Sorry.
So just also to highlight that as well as giving you all the data you need to make the comparisons really actively in your copy between your offer and other available alternatives, this question can also yield just some super powerful social proof that will really help position and sell your offer in a really effective way.
Now what I’ve done here, as you can probably see, every time someone has mentioned a competitor or a competing offer, I have put that in orange.
You know, you can see Sarah Turner’s Right Away to Freedom, copy school comes up a few times. Kate Toon, copy hackers.
I think there’s also some reference to the copywriter think sorry. The copywriter club think tank, yeah, Accelerator. I think Tarzan gets mentioned somewhere in here as well.
So, you know, a lot of big names, but also a lot of clarity for me on who or what else my ideal prospect is considering or has tried before when it comes to investing money towards this goal or towards solving the problem or not feeling like they are a really confident effective copywriter.
So that information is incredibly useful because it gives me those direct comparison points that I can leverage.
The pieces of, these feedback, snippets that are in green, the ways in which these prospects or these customers have identified Braincamp as being a better, more appealing option for them. Now again, I’m not focused here on trying to prove that Braincamp is the best copywriting course ever. I’m really using this question to understand what matters to my ideal prospect and how Braincamp is a best fit option for them. Because I know without a doubt that there are many, many, many people for whom Braincamp would not be the best fit.
And that’s great. I don’t want to attract them to the offer. I actually want to weed them out by highlighting these points so I can draw the right people in We’ll let the other people off the book. Right?
If it’s not the best fit for them, it doesn’t serve either of us for them to actually come in and join the program.
So as you can perhaps see, a lot of the pieces in green make the same points. So more holistic human centric understanding of copywriting, more focused on sales psychology, much more human centered.
There is also a lot of reference to the fact, that, for example, the Slack chat in workshops was so intimate and every question I had got answered.
The intimacy and attention afforded by the small group nature of this course blew away every other copywriting course I’ve taken. So a lot of the points are really similar, which is great, right? When you start seeing those patterns in your voice of customer data, you know you are hitting on something.
So I won’t spend much more time going through this raw data here. What I really want you to take away from having a quick squeeze at this spreadsheet, I mean, look at so many responses here, is that, this simple question gives you all the information you need. Right? It’s then so easy to take this and put it into copy and put it in a format that is incredibly easy for your prospects mind to grab a hold of and pull into their decision making process. So if you’re wondering, okay, what does that look like?
My favorite way to illustrate how an offer is different and better is by writing copy into a comparison table.
Very simple, very effective.
So I’ll have a I’ll do a quick, little scroll of this section of Brain Camp sales page.
I know there are a lot of other copywriting courses out there on the interwebs. Your time is precious and money doesn’t grow on trees. So chances are you’re wondering why you should invest in this one. This handy little table is here to help. Now as you can see, even with this headline, I’m being very direct and very upfront about the fact that, yeah, I’m sure you’re looking at other options or maybe you’ve bought other copywriting courses before and you’ve been underwhelmed by, you know, what’s been waiting for you inside or the kind of results they’ve helped you achieve. I’m addressing the elephant in the room head on, because if I don’t, I can’t effectively talk to or demonstrate how this offer is different and better for the ideal prospect. So don’t be afraid to be really direct.
It’s a much more powerful tactic if you are able to just be really matter of fact and straight to the point.
Now as you can see here, one column here is devoted to other courses, and these points are all pulled from that data in terms of what people found disappointing or lacking about some of the other courses they had tried before.
This column on the right here is all the ways in which Braincamp is different and better on those points. So I put in here all the bits that matter based on that voice of customer research, and they’re all here as direct points of comparison. So for example, you would have seen, in that spreadsheet that I showed you a minute ago that there was quite a bit of, feedback on the fact that the intimate nature of the course was really valuable. So of course, there’s a point in here about that. So other courses have ginormous cohorts, little opportunity for one to one attention.
Brain camp has just twenty five spots up for grabs. By the end of week, we’ll know each other’s names and niches. By the end of week twelve, we’ll probably have matching hats. If you want to need one to one attention, all you need to do is hit me up in Slack, send me a copy for critique, or ask me a question during one of our live workshops.
Of course, I could read all of these out to you. Let me just pick another one just for reference. So, I think one of the other points I called out when I was going through those responses, in the Google Sheet were that people liked the deeper psychological approach, the human centered approach. So other courses teach basic psychological concepts like loss aversion and anchoring.
These are great, by the way, but they can only get you so far. Braincamp takes a deeper applied approach to psychology to give you a genuine edge on your competition.
So this table is really just regurgitating all that voice of customer in a really organized way so that my prospect can read this and have a really direct component of comparison for each hesitation they may have based on their prior experience of this kind or this category of offer. So as you can see, it makes the mental processing incredibly easy, right? Everything is here for this person. This column on the right is basically the justification that they can pass on to anyone else in their lives who they feel needs to hear it.
It also, of course, as I mentioned, helps, really appease the rational part of their decision making process.
Now importantly, whenever you do make these comparisons in your copy, you need to prove them right away. If you don’t, you’re simply seeing your prospect to trust what you say. If you’re able to prove the points as you make them, you’re closing that tap. Right. There’s no question then in your prospect’s mind about whether this is actually a legitimate claim.
They can see that these claims are being backed up by real life human beings.
In this case, because I have all that beautiful data from asking that question in my feedback form after the course is complete.
I’ve gone with testimonials. Right? And the testimonials that I’ve chosen to feature here speak directly to the points that I’m making above, and speak directly to those comparisons. Right? So people can see that there are other people who’ve been through this course, who ideally they know. Right? I’m also strategic here about who I’m featuring.
You can also do that too. So, for Braincamp in particular, given the most, commonly referenced competitor was Coffee School, I have picked people here who are possibly well known in that Coffee School realm. So we’ve got Kenny Williamson, we’ve got Nick Moors, we’ve got Christine Noriano, and also Amisha. So, you can also be strategic with that. Right? Because with your social proof, if your ideal prospect knows off or already knows likes and trust to some extent or maybe looks up to the person whose proof you’re featuring, that helps that proof land even more powerfully.
Anyway, that’s a bit of a side note. I could talk about social proof all day long.
But just remember that whenever you’re making these claims about how your offer is different and better for your ideal prospect, you are able to back them up with some sort of proof.
Now, of course, all that delicious data about how Braincamp is different and better for the right prospect, deserved more airtime than simply being on one portion of the sales page. So I had an email. This is from my twenty twenty launch of the offer. If you’d like to see, the full email, just let me know. As you can see it, it lives in my Google Drive so I can very easily share the link with you.
Bold subject line, something I would never say about my own offer, but something that, the voice of customer data says for me. So from a mindset perspective, it makes it so much easier for me to lead with this information. And again, it’s not that I think Braincamp is or was, you know, the top tier copywriting course in the whole world. It’s just that for a certain type of prospect, it was the best fit offer.
So that is what this email is all about. I won’t read it all, but I’ll read the first little bit just so you get the gist. One of the questions I ask people when they finish Braincamp is how did it compare to other copywriting courses you’ve taken? Which is a great question to ask when your office is in a crowded market because competition breeds comparison and being able to address it directly frees people up to say, okay.
Yep. This is what I need or, ah, okay. This isn’t the right option.
So with that in mind, here are twelve different answers to that question quite literally copy pasted in all their unedited glory. I really wanted to screenshot them to make them even more legitimate, but the text got really teeny tiny so I’m rolling with plan b. This first one is from copywriter Amy Williamson.
So I know I’m like a total fan girl and all, but this is at the very least equal with copy school. Probably it’s better to be honest. Don’t tell Queen Weid. Kirsty, if you haven’t heard of copy school, don’t worry. I hadn’t either until a couple of years ago. It’s pretty much the gold standard of copywriting courses. Which means my imposter syndrome and I had a real fun time with that one.
Here’s another one from email copywriter Megan Baird. Well, the testimonial from the beta round of better than copy school was living over my head the whole time. Can’t say that she was wrong. It’s also completely different from any other copywriting course. I’ve taken a lot of them. I think the biggest difference was that it was neither skill only like copy school or biz only like accelerator. It was also like an added bonus that all of the site copywriting skill you taught could also be applied to my own business.
Brain camp was also a lot less copy paste in a good way. I admit that I’ve watched other courses at one point two five times speed and then relied on the templates or swipe.
That so did not work at Braincamp. I’ve already rewatched all the videos just to absorb more info. Probably because on the first round of watching, it just kept sparking ideas to my own business. So second watch was more how to apply this to my work.
Oh, and it felt more like a mastermind than a course. The size of the group plus the quality of the ladies. Well, that sounds bad. Plus how flexible you were with helping us out.
Never been in a course like that before. Just the fact that the same group of us kept showing up to every zone call that really says something.
Now I won’t keep reading, but as you can see, what I’ve done here is literally copy pasted people’s responses to that question, and I have highlighted, the competing offers so that if someone is in the position of deciding between copy school and Braincamp or between the copywriter club accelerator and Braincamp or between one of Tarzan’s courses and Braincamp, they can go to the piece that feels relevant and they can hear from someone just like them. Right? That is where your social proof is most powerful.
Now, I’ve also included lots of answers to this question, because, again, when it comes to social proof, the more you have, the more powerfully you can actually make the point. Right? There’s there just becomes such a small amount of room for any doubt that what you’re saying is true.
So a couple of side notes there on social proof. But again, the thing that I’m really doing here is really directly comparing the offer to other available options and highlighting all the ways it’s different and better for my ideal prospect. Right? I’m doing the hard work for them of having to think through and compare.
Oh, what about this option? What about that option? Would this actually be better for me? Here’s some hard data from people who’ve already done the course, who have maybe also done the other things that you’ve invested in or thought about investing in, and here’s what they have to say.
So just wanted to show you that as another way to illustrate how powerful this can be.
This email absolutely triggered a waterfall of sales, for Braincamp when I sent it. It was incredibly powerful stuff.
I wanted to also show you another example, of some copy I wrote for a client. It’d be good few years ago now.
But what you’re looking at here is, the client sales page. This was Amber McHugh, who if you work with coaches, you know, you’re familiar with.
This was for her mastermind, called Freshly Implemented.
This was what her sales page looked like before I worked with her.
Also a hot tip if you’re not already screenshotting or recording copy assets that you’re about to work on before you actually optimize them, start doing it. It’s so powerful to have the fors and afters. Quick side note. Over. Okay. So as you can see here, her previous copywriter had, realized that it was important to talk about how this offer is different and better than others that her ideal prospect might have tried before.
The way that they’ve done it isn’t as powerful as it could be. So this is why I wanna show you how you can optimize this information. Right? So this section here, what makes Freshly Implemented so different?
I know that you’ve done a lot of classes and courses in the past and you are dubious to add on another one. There is one thing you need to know. This isn’t a class. I’m not here to give you a bunch of advice you don’t need or add to your to do list.
You’ve been buying get it done mugs and filling up notebooks full of ideas and action steps for years. Now is the time to bring those business ideas and dreams to life. Let me show you how to get it done with these four areas of focus. Time plus strategy plus accountability plus implementation.
Now I won’t read the details, in here, but as you can see, there’s a little call out box for each one of those points of difference.
And for the record, like, these things, the time, the strategy, the accountability, and the implementation were definitely things that came through in the voice of customer data in terms of how freshly implemented was different and better, in terms of other courses or masterminds they tried for their businesses previously.
But as you can see, the the way that this these points are presented is it’s not actually done in direct comparison.
Right? They’re talking about features in a way that is not anchored against anything else. So what they’re really doing here is leaving a lot of space for the prospect to have to do their own mental arithmetic. Right? To join the dots between how this compares to other things they’ve tried or thought about trying before.
Even the formatting of this copy is not optimized. Right? We think about the comparison table I showed you for the Braincamp sales page, that really just takes a mental load off your prospect. Right? You present present it to them in a really easily digestible format.
All they need to do is repeat across the bullet points. This does not do that. Right? So the comparison here is weaker even though copywriter here has actually been able to really identify the pieces of the puzzle that matter. The way they’re talking about them and communicating them isn’t as effective as it could be.
For comparison, here is the point of the bit of the sales page, after I rewrote it that tackles that same piece of the puzzle.
What makes Freshly Implemented different and better than all the other masterminds out there? Girl, I’m so glad you asked. Other online programs, the alternative.
Give you a bunch of ideas and frameworks focusing on the what rather than the how. Freshly implemented for smart CEOs like you focuses strongly on implementation, helping you find the best approach for your current challenge and supporting you as you put it into action, sticking firmly by your side until you get it right.
Other online programs keep the face of the program locked up behind closed doors, only granting you access through pre recorded trainings and the occasional Facebook live.
Freshly Implemented offers one to one on the fly access to me and my amazing fresh mentors So you get true coaching and consulting. This comes to you through back pocket TLCs, open studio hours, speed masterminding and a text me when you need me policy.
Seriously, I give you my phone number right from the get go. Now I won’t keep reading, but hopefully, you can already see how much more powerful this information is when the comparisons are made directly. Right? When they’re called out as they are, honing in on still the same things that matter. Right? But just making the information, a lot more easily digestible for the prospect reading through this page.
Again, scrolling all the way down. I mean, there’s lots of points here. And, again, these were all, given to me through asking that same simple question, in, the voice of customer surveys. And also I got some other richer data through doing, the voice of customer interviews.
But it’s so easy to get a handle on this stuff. The copy pretty much writes itself.
It’s just knowing what to do with it and not being shy about getting quite bold with it. Right? Really spelling out how your offer is different and better for the right person.
Again, there’s proof, to back these points up right underneath the comparison table so that all great information above is not there on a trust basis. Like trust these claims because I’m making them, these claims are then immediately after being proven through testimonials.
So, for example, this first one here before Fresh, I just invested twenty thousand in a membership in a mentorship program that completely disappointed me.
This then goes on to talk about, the results she got out of being inside of freshly implemented.
So that you can see, you know, this person has actually invested in some of these other options before and not got results, but with Fresh that that story was different.
There are a few more testimonials there that I won’t go into, but just want you to see that I’m improving these points as I’m making them so that those comparisons aren’t just hearsay for your prospect. They’re real. Right? They’re being proven.
That tab is being closed. There’s no room for doubts and hesitations. And again, you’re moving closely in that straight line towards your prospect saying yes to your offer.
Okay.
The final little side note that I wanted to leave you with was that comparisons also help us make sense of the world, which is a handy fact to keep in mind if your prospect is new to your kind or category of offer or if your offer is a brand new concept.
So again, as a really everyday example, I won’t talk about, the bread aisle again, but, a few weeks ago, I think it was now my oldest who’s three, he asked me what a donkey was. What’s a donkey?
He’s never seen a donkey before. I think maybe it was in a book that we were reading or a puzzle we were doing. I can’t remember. Anyway, the way I answered his question was taking something he already knew and talking about comparison points.
So he knows what a horse is. He’s seen a horse before. He’s been reading about horses in all sorts of books for many years. So I said, oh, donkeys are a bit like a horse, but they’re smaller, and they’ve got much bigger ears.
Now I’m sure there’s probably a better explanation out there about what a donkey is, but that was good enough for him. And it allowed him to really understand what a donkey was in some concrete terms because it took what he already knew and built on that knowledge using really simple comparisons.
So I mean, you’re probably not going to be using comparisons to explain what a donkey is in your copy. But of course, there may be a case where you are selling a mastermind to an audience of people who, for whatever reason, have never come across the term mastermind before. They don’t know what it is, but maybe they know what an online course is. If that’s the case, you can use comparisons to help build out their understanding to the point where they feel confident about the shape and the value of the offer they’re opting into.
It may also be for example that you’re dealing with an audience who doesn’t know what a custom GPT is, right? I’m sure that’s probably a much more probable scenario than someone who doesn’t know what a mastermind is. So again, taking what someone already knows and expanding that knowledge with the magic of comparisons.
So to put it another way, probably more succinctly because I wrote this rather than said it, the best approach here is to scaffold between what your prospect already understands and what they need to know to understand the value of the offer. So it’s just a really effective way to give someone a concrete understanding that again, they can share with other people if they need to. If they feel the need to justify their purchasing decision. If they want someone else to buy into the fact that they’re excited about buying this offer from you or from your client.
So just a really good thing to keep in mind.
Okay. The last thing that I want to just quickly touch on, before I end this workshop is the worksheet.
So you should already have access to this. If you don’t, I guess, let me know.
But what I have here are just some prompts for you. You may not need these, but just in case this helps you organize your data and organize your thoughts, lean into this. So four questions here for you. What other relevant or related offers has your ideal prospect tried or thought about trying before? Again, you can get this information from asking that one simple question in your voice of customer research.
If that for whatever reason is not available to you, some internet sleuthing would also allow you to do the same job.
Reddit is a great place where you might find, depending on what your offer is, some threads about it or its category of offer. So you can see what people are talking about and what things they have considered or tried before and how those stack up.
How did they miss the mark either in practice or in how they were perceived by your prospect? Again, that magic question in your voice of customer research will give you this data. This is just being able to organize it right into something that you can then very easily turn into copy.
How is your or your clients offer different and ideally better in relation to those points? Make each comparison as direct and specific as you can. So again, don’t be afraid to be really ballsy with this and lean on that voice of customer data, right? It is so much easier, to be able to share something someone else has said then and also also, we see more effective, than just to try and sift through your own brain and come up with the justifications and reasons and answers to this question here.
Finally, how can you prove some or all of those points of wealth? In the examples I’ve shared with you today, in both cases, that was via testimonials.
But, of course, there are other ways. So for example, let’s say you are selling a client’s online course and they have some sort of platform where, you can, you know, post questions and get support. And something that comes through in your research or in your feedback about that program is that that space is far more engaged and supportive, than other similar spaces they’ve been in before. So a way to prove that, in lieu of or in addition to testimonials would be, if you have permission from the people in the screenshot to take a screenshot of people asking for questions or asking for support within that space and getting really good, really quick, really valuable responses, right, from either other people in that space or from the person who actually heads up the program. That’s a really good way to prove that point.
If you are trying to prove how much the UX of your app, for example, or your client’s app, is better than the other available apps that do a similar thing, it might be that, you have a demo or a video that walks someone through all those different things so they can see exactly how easy it is, to click through and, you know, achieve a certain thing, create a task, whatever that might look like. So there are different ways that you can prove points. The important thing is that you do it so that you are not asking your prospect to trust you as you say all the ways your offer is different and better for them. But you are demonstrating that the points that you are making are true and that they’ve come from the people who are in the know.
Okay.
That is it. Like I mentioned at the start, if you have any questions or if you want a second set of eyes on maybe a comparison table that you’re going to now go and write into your sales pages or an email that you’re going to send, whatever that might look like, please just reach out, tag me in Slack, and I would absolutely love to help you.
It’s such an easy and effective technique to leverage in your copy.
So yeah, I just hope you go forth and start using it ASAP. I would love to hear how it goes. I would love to hear about the results you get. Okay.
That’s it for me.
I will see you in Slack. Bye.
Worksheet
Worksheet
Transcript
Hey, everyone. Very quickly before I dive into the content of the workshop, I just wanted to apologize for having to cancel last week’s workshop at such short notice.
Unfortunately, we had a very poorly timed stomach bug come through our families. So it was just, not a situation in which I could have fronted up for an hour on Zoom. Anyway, here we are with plan b. What’s going to happen here is I will be, sharing all the hows, the what’s, the whys, all the theories, some examples of how to leverage direct comparisons in your copy.
And if you have any questions on anything I share here today, if you want some help or a second set of eyes on how you’ve applied this to some copy you’re working on at the moment, or if you wanted to even talk about how we could take this practice from the world of copywriting and apply it to, for example, your sales calls, please just tag me in Slack and let me know. I would absolutely love to work through this kind of stuff with you. So don’t be shy in reaching out if you would like some help or some support. That’s exactly what I’m here for. Okay. On that note, let’s dive into the meat, of the workshop. Let me share my screen with you.
So as you know, today’s session is all about how to leverage direct comparisons to make your offer a really easy yes for your ideal prospect.
So very much building on this month’s theme of straight line copywriting.
Now the best place to start with this stuff is to really highlight the fact that when it comes to decision making, our brains absolutely love comparisons.
Why? Well, quite simply it’s because they allow us to assign value to the options that are in front of us and therefore make a really informed decision.
They help appease the rational part of our brain. If you’ve ever read Thinking Fast and Thinking Slow, you’ll know that, we typically make decisions, relating to all sorts of things, including what to purchase based on the rational part and the emotional part of our brain. So there are two different systems at play. Comparisons really appeal to that rational part of your prospect’s brain. Because what they allow us to do very easily is have a justification for why we’ve made the purchasing decision. And importantly, it’s one that your prospect can really easily share with others in their life.
So if the offer that you’re writing copy for is something where your prospect will need to justify their decision to perhaps their boss or their team, maybe their spouse, maybe their friends, maybe their peers, This tactic and this approach of leveraging direct comparisons is actually incredibly beneficial because it gives people the data which they can easily use for that purpose. Right? They feel really confident in sharing why they chose this offer above, other options on the market or why they think this will actually work when perhaps previous purchases in the same realm have not delivered the outcome that they were after. So keep that in mind, as we move forward from here.
Now, of course, we’ll be talking about how direct comparisons apply to the kind of offers that you’re writing copy for. But I think just to get you in the headspace of getting a feel for or realising how these things come into play in everyday life.
We want you here for a minute to think about the bread aisle at your local supermarket.
Now, depending on where you are in the world and how big your city or your town is, your supermarket bread section may not look like this.
The one up the road from me here in Sydney absolutely does. I would say it’s probably even larger than this. There must be close to a hundred different options at least, of bread. Now if you are to leave this recording and go and ask your housemate, your partner, your kid if they’re old enough, hey like what what kind of bread do you choose when you go to the supermarket and can you tell me why?
I guarantee you they are going to have a list of factors in there that are comparative. So that are comparing their bread of choice to other options that are there on the shelf. So for example, and it’s quite sad that I know this much detail about my husband, but I know that whenever he goes to the supermarket, the loaf that he chooses is always just the generic supermarket brand wholemeal bread. And I know that he chooses that because he likes it.
It has more fiber than white bread, right? He’s healthier moves things along, I guess.
And also he likes it because it has less, of those, like, seedy or grainy bits compared to, the whole grain bread. Also, I know that he likes it because of the size of the slices and the way that they fit into our oldest kids lunchbox.
So as I’m talking through this, I mean, yes, those are no pedantic things to be thinking about, but that’s how he justifies his decision. That’s how he has watched the place of knowing that that is his top choice of life. Now, of course, the reasons that you have or the reasons that the people in your life might have for their particular choice of bread are going to be different because different things matter to different people.
The point is that if you drill down enough into someone’s choice of bread, you will get to a point where they are able to articulate why they choose it in relation to other options. So how they think their choice of loaf is different and better than other things that they could have chosen instead.
So the point that I’m trying to make here is that value is relative, right? So it only exists in relation to other options and it’s also subjective. So what matters to me is going to be different to what matters to you in most cases.
So this means that we’re better able to illustrate the value of an offer when we actively compare it to options instead of talking about it in isolation, honing in on the aspects that actually matter to our ideal prospect, right, rather than trying to prove some sort of global superiority.
So two really important points here. Right? We need to compare options to other available alternatives, right, in order to help someone understand in a really concrete, aidable way why something is a different and better option for them given what they value in the thing that we’re talking about.
Now it’s really important that when you are leveraging direct comparisons in your copy, you are really focused on what actually matters for your ideal prospect. If you try and take this a step above and go sort of a step higher and you try to prove some sort of global superiority, like, well, this is simply just the best offer on the market for anyone, you’re going to get tripped up. Because of course, the thing that makes your offer the best fit for your ideal prospect is going to make it not the best fit for the people who aren’t your ideal prospect. Right?
And that’s good. That’s why niches exist. That’s why specificity sells. Right? I also think there is a mindset hurdle that you would also come up against if you were to try and prove that your offer is just absolutely the best flat out regardless of who it’s serving.
So really stick to what the data tells you about your ideal prospect, what they care about, and how your offer responds to that, or how your offer serves those things, those points of difference.
So on that note, if you are not already asking this question in your voice of customer research, start.
How does insert your offer compared to other insert the category of your offer things you’ve tried or thought about trying before? So for example, how does CopySchool Professional compare to other copywriting masterminds you’ve tried or thought about trying before?
How does ConvertKit or KIP I think they are now calling it compare to other email marketing platforms you’ve tried or thought about trying before?
Asking this question alone will get you such rich data and will get you all the information you need to actually go ahead and make really effective comparisons in your copy. It will unearth who your competitors are and also how your offer is different and better in the ways that matter who your ideal prospect. So this question unearth some absolute gold. So if you’re not already asking it, again, please start folding it into your research process.
If you’re looking at this and you’re thinking, oh, that doesn’t quite fit with the project I’m working on, because I know that my ideal prospect hasn’t actually invested in a solution, for this problem or this challenge or to work towards this outcome before, this question may serve you better. What stopped you from getting help with this kind of thing before? So what this will do is help you pinpoint and uncover objections or perceived faults or flaws with available offers that ideally your offer can speak to. Right? You can say, oh, well, actually, you know, you might be worried about x. Here’s what our offer does in that respect that is different and better. So what you’re doing here is making a really clear case for your offer in a great fit in all the ways that matter.
Now I wanna show you a real world example of what this looks like, so you can see how easy and how powerful it is in copy.
So what you’re looking at here, is a spreadsheet I’ve just exported from one of my type forms, a bunch of responses to this question, which is one that has existed historically in my feedback form for a copywriting course that I’ve recently retired.
So don’t worry. I’m not trying to sell you on this. It’s just, it’s just a really good example of direct comparisons. And I think because we are mostly copywriters in here, it might be helpful because you probably know some of these competitors. Right? And certainly you will know copy school.
So as you can see here, the question I ask in the survey is how did it compare to other copywriting courses you’ve taken. Right? So I’m asking about how this offer compared to other offers in the same category.
So you can probably already see that even where there are no competitors mentioned or where there are no direct comparisons drawn, There’s some really juicy, voice of customer here that I can obviously leverage to help someone offer through testimonials. So even the second response here, like brain camp is the only copywriting course you need. That’s a very powerful headline to be able to leverage somewhere. It’s a very powerful point of social proof. And often, you know, down here, you know, Braincamp is where I’m with the best copywriting course I’ve ever taken.
I did something strange there. There we go. Sorry.
So just also to highlight that as well as giving you all the data you need to make the comparisons really actively in your copy between your offer and other available alternatives, this question can also yield just some super powerful social proof that will really help position and sell your offer in a really effective way.
Now what I’ve done here, as you can probably see, every time someone has mentioned a competitor or a competing offer, I have put that in orange.
You know, you can see Sarah Turner’s Right Away to Freedom, copy school comes up a few times. Kate Toon, copy hackers.
I think there’s also some reference to the copywriter think sorry. The copywriter club think tank, yeah, Accelerator. I think Tarzan gets mentioned somewhere in here as well.
So, you know, a lot of big names, but also a lot of clarity for me on who or what else my ideal prospect is considering or has tried before when it comes to investing money towards this goal or towards solving the problem or not feeling like they are a really confident effective copywriter.
So that information is incredibly useful because it gives me those direct comparison points that I can leverage.
The pieces of, these feedback, snippets that are in green, the ways in which these prospects or these customers have identified Braincamp as being a better, more appealing option for them. Now again, I’m not focused here on trying to prove that Braincamp is the best copywriting course ever. I’m really using this question to understand what matters to my ideal prospect and how Braincamp is a best fit option for them. Because I know without a doubt that there are many, many, many people for whom Braincamp would not be the best fit.
And that’s great. I don’t want to attract them to the offer. I actually want to weed them out by highlighting these points so I can draw the right people in We’ll let the other people off the book. Right?
If it’s not the best fit for them, it doesn’t serve either of us for them to actually come in and join the program.
So as you can perhaps see, a lot of the pieces in green make the same points. So more holistic human centric understanding of copywriting, more focused on sales psychology, much more human centered.
There is also a lot of reference to the fact, that, for example, the Slack chat in workshops was so intimate and every question I had got answered.
The intimacy and attention afforded by the small group nature of this course blew away every other copywriting course I’ve taken. So a lot of the points are really similar, which is great, right? When you start seeing those patterns in your voice of customer data, you know you are hitting on something.
So I won’t spend much more time going through this raw data here. What I really want you to take away from having a quick squeeze at this spreadsheet, I mean, look at so many responses here, is that, this simple question gives you all the information you need. Right? It’s then so easy to take this and put it into copy and put it in a format that is incredibly easy for your prospects mind to grab a hold of and pull into their decision making process. So if you’re wondering, okay, what does that look like?
My favorite way to illustrate how an offer is different and better is by writing copy into a comparison table.
Very simple, very effective.
So I’ll have a I’ll do a quick, little scroll of this section of Brain Camp sales page.
I know there are a lot of other copywriting courses out there on the interwebs. Your time is precious and money doesn’t grow on trees. So chances are you’re wondering why you should invest in this one. This handy little table is here to help. Now as you can see, even with this headline, I’m being very direct and very upfront about the fact that, yeah, I’m sure you’re looking at other options or maybe you’ve bought other copywriting courses before and you’ve been underwhelmed by, you know, what’s been waiting for you inside or the kind of results they’ve helped you achieve. I’m addressing the elephant in the room head on, because if I don’t, I can’t effectively talk to or demonstrate how this offer is different and better for the ideal prospect. So don’t be afraid to be really direct.
It’s a much more powerful tactic if you are able to just be really matter of fact and straight to the point.
Now as you can see here, one column here is devoted to other courses, and these points are all pulled from that data in terms of what people found disappointing or lacking about some of the other courses they had tried before.
This column on the right here is all the ways in which Braincamp is different and better on those points. So I put in here all the bits that matter based on that voice of customer research, and they’re all here as direct points of comparison. So for example, you would have seen, in that spreadsheet that I showed you a minute ago that there was quite a bit of, feedback on the fact that the intimate nature of the course was really valuable. So of course, there’s a point in here about that. So other courses have ginormous cohorts, little opportunity for one to one attention.
Brain camp has just twenty five spots up for grabs. By the end of week, we’ll know each other’s names and niches. By the end of week twelve, we’ll probably have matching hats. If you want to need one to one attention, all you need to do is hit me up in Slack, send me a copy for critique, or ask me a question during one of our live workshops.
Of course, I could read all of these out to you. Let me just pick another one just for reference. So, I think one of the other points I called out when I was going through those responses, in the Google Sheet were that people liked the deeper psychological approach, the human centered approach. So other courses teach basic psychological concepts like loss aversion and anchoring.
These are great, by the way, but they can only get you so far. Braincamp takes a deeper applied approach to psychology to give you a genuine edge on your competition.
So this table is really just regurgitating all that voice of customer in a really organized way so that my prospect can read this and have a really direct component of comparison for each hesitation they may have based on their prior experience of this kind or this category of offer. So as you can see, it makes the mental processing incredibly easy, right? Everything is here for this person. This column on the right is basically the justification that they can pass on to anyone else in their lives who they feel needs to hear it.
It also, of course, as I mentioned, helps, really appease the rational part of their decision making process.
Now importantly, whenever you do make these comparisons in your copy, you need to prove them right away. If you don’t, you’re simply seeing your prospect to trust what you say. If you’re able to prove the points as you make them, you’re closing that tap. Right. There’s no question then in your prospect’s mind about whether this is actually a legitimate claim.
They can see that these claims are being backed up by real life human beings.
In this case, because I have all that beautiful data from asking that question in my feedback form after the course is complete.
I’ve gone with testimonials. Right? And the testimonials that I’ve chosen to feature here speak directly to the points that I’m making above, and speak directly to those comparisons. Right? So people can see that there are other people who’ve been through this course, who ideally they know. Right? I’m also strategic here about who I’m featuring.
You can also do that too. So, for Braincamp in particular, given the most, commonly referenced competitor was Coffee School, I have picked people here who are possibly well known in that Coffee School realm. So we’ve got Kenny Williamson, we’ve got Nick Moors, we’ve got Christine Noriano, and also Amisha. So, you can also be strategic with that. Right? Because with your social proof, if your ideal prospect knows off or already knows likes and trust to some extent or maybe looks up to the person whose proof you’re featuring, that helps that proof land even more powerfully.
Anyway, that’s a bit of a side note. I could talk about social proof all day long.
But just remember that whenever you’re making these claims about how your offer is different and better for your ideal prospect, you are able to back them up with some sort of proof.
Now, of course, all that delicious data about how Braincamp is different and better for the right prospect, deserved more airtime than simply being on one portion of the sales page. So I had an email. This is from my twenty twenty launch of the offer. If you’d like to see, the full email, just let me know. As you can see it, it lives in my Google Drive so I can very easily share the link with you.
Bold subject line, something I would never say about my own offer, but something that, the voice of customer data says for me. So from a mindset perspective, it makes it so much easier for me to lead with this information. And again, it’s not that I think Braincamp is or was, you know, the top tier copywriting course in the whole world. It’s just that for a certain type of prospect, it was the best fit offer.
So that is what this email is all about. I won’t read it all, but I’ll read the first little bit just so you get the gist. One of the questions I ask people when they finish Braincamp is how did it compare to other copywriting courses you’ve taken? Which is a great question to ask when your office is in a crowded market because competition breeds comparison and being able to address it directly frees people up to say, okay.
Yep. This is what I need or, ah, okay. This isn’t the right option.
So with that in mind, here are twelve different answers to that question quite literally copy pasted in all their unedited glory. I really wanted to screenshot them to make them even more legitimate, but the text got really teeny tiny so I’m rolling with plan b. This first one is from copywriter Amy Williamson.
So I know I’m like a total fan girl and all, but this is at the very least equal with copy school. Probably it’s better to be honest. Don’t tell Queen Weid. Kirsty, if you haven’t heard of copy school, don’t worry. I hadn’t either until a couple of years ago. It’s pretty much the gold standard of copywriting courses. Which means my imposter syndrome and I had a real fun time with that one.
Here’s another one from email copywriter Megan Baird. Well, the testimonial from the beta round of better than copy school was living over my head the whole time. Can’t say that she was wrong. It’s also completely different from any other copywriting course. I’ve taken a lot of them. I think the biggest difference was that it was neither skill only like copy school or biz only like accelerator. It was also like an added bonus that all of the site copywriting skill you taught could also be applied to my own business.
Brain camp was also a lot less copy paste in a good way. I admit that I’ve watched other courses at one point two five times speed and then relied on the templates or swipe.
That so did not work at Braincamp. I’ve already rewatched all the videos just to absorb more info. Probably because on the first round of watching, it just kept sparking ideas to my own business. So second watch was more how to apply this to my work.
Oh, and it felt more like a mastermind than a course. The size of the group plus the quality of the ladies. Well, that sounds bad. Plus how flexible you were with helping us out.
Never been in a course like that before. Just the fact that the same group of us kept showing up to every zone call that really says something.
Now I won’t keep reading, but as you can see, what I’ve done here is literally copy pasted people’s responses to that question, and I have highlighted, the competing offers so that if someone is in the position of deciding between copy school and Braincamp or between the copywriter club accelerator and Braincamp or between one of Tarzan’s courses and Braincamp, they can go to the piece that feels relevant and they can hear from someone just like them. Right? That is where your social proof is most powerful.
Now, I’ve also included lots of answers to this question, because, again, when it comes to social proof, the more you have, the more powerfully you can actually make the point. Right? There’s there just becomes such a small amount of room for any doubt that what you’re saying is true.
So a couple of side notes there on social proof. But again, the thing that I’m really doing here is really directly comparing the offer to other available options and highlighting all the ways it’s different and better for my ideal prospect. Right? I’m doing the hard work for them of having to think through and compare.
Oh, what about this option? What about that option? Would this actually be better for me? Here’s some hard data from people who’ve already done the course, who have maybe also done the other things that you’ve invested in or thought about investing in, and here’s what they have to say.
So just wanted to show you that as another way to illustrate how powerful this can be.
This email absolutely triggered a waterfall of sales, for Braincamp when I sent it. It was incredibly powerful stuff.
I wanted to also show you another example, of some copy I wrote for a client. It’d be good few years ago now.
But what you’re looking at here is, the client sales page. This was Amber McHugh, who if you work with coaches, you know, you’re familiar with.
This was for her mastermind, called Freshly Implemented.
This was what her sales page looked like before I worked with her.
Also a hot tip if you’re not already screenshotting or recording copy assets that you’re about to work on before you actually optimize them, start doing it. It’s so powerful to have the fors and afters. Quick side note. Over. Okay. So as you can see here, her previous copywriter had, realized that it was important to talk about how this offer is different and better than others that her ideal prospect might have tried before.
The way that they’ve done it isn’t as powerful as it could be. So this is why I wanna show you how you can optimize this information. Right? So this section here, what makes Freshly Implemented so different?
I know that you’ve done a lot of classes and courses in the past and you are dubious to add on another one. There is one thing you need to know. This isn’t a class. I’m not here to give you a bunch of advice you don’t need or add to your to do list.
You’ve been buying get it done mugs and filling up notebooks full of ideas and action steps for years. Now is the time to bring those business ideas and dreams to life. Let me show you how to get it done with these four areas of focus. Time plus strategy plus accountability plus implementation.
Now I won’t read the details, in here, but as you can see, there’s a little call out box for each one of those points of difference.
And for the record, like, these things, the time, the strategy, the accountability, and the implementation were definitely things that came through in the voice of customer data in terms of how freshly implemented was different and better, in terms of other courses or masterminds they tried for their businesses previously.
But as you can see, the the way that this these points are presented is it’s not actually done in direct comparison.
Right? They’re talking about features in a way that is not anchored against anything else. So what they’re really doing here is leaving a lot of space for the prospect to have to do their own mental arithmetic. Right? To join the dots between how this compares to other things they’ve tried or thought about trying before.
Even the formatting of this copy is not optimized. Right? We think about the comparison table I showed you for the Braincamp sales page, that really just takes a mental load off your prospect. Right? You present present it to them in a really easily digestible format.
All they need to do is repeat across the bullet points. This does not do that. Right? So the comparison here is weaker even though copywriter here has actually been able to really identify the pieces of the puzzle that matter. The way they’re talking about them and communicating them isn’t as effective as it could be.
For comparison, here is the point of the bit of the sales page, after I rewrote it that tackles that same piece of the puzzle.
What makes Freshly Implemented different and better than all the other masterminds out there? Girl, I’m so glad you asked. Other online programs, the alternative.
Give you a bunch of ideas and frameworks focusing on the what rather than the how. Freshly implemented for smart CEOs like you focuses strongly on implementation, helping you find the best approach for your current challenge and supporting you as you put it into action, sticking firmly by your side until you get it right.
Other online programs keep the face of the program locked up behind closed doors, only granting you access through pre recorded trainings and the occasional Facebook live.
Freshly Implemented offers one to one on the fly access to me and my amazing fresh mentors So you get true coaching and consulting. This comes to you through back pocket TLCs, open studio hours, speed masterminding and a text me when you need me policy.
Seriously, I give you my phone number right from the get go. Now I won’t keep reading, but hopefully, you can already see how much more powerful this information is when the comparisons are made directly. Right? When they’re called out as they are, honing in on still the same things that matter. Right? But just making the information, a lot more easily digestible for the prospect reading through this page.
Again, scrolling all the way down. I mean, there’s lots of points here. And, again, these were all, given to me through asking that same simple question, in, the voice of customer surveys. And also I got some other richer data through doing, the voice of customer interviews.
But it’s so easy to get a handle on this stuff. The copy pretty much writes itself.
It’s just knowing what to do with it and not being shy about getting quite bold with it. Right? Really spelling out how your offer is different and better for the right person.
Again, there’s proof, to back these points up right underneath the comparison table so that all great information above is not there on a trust basis. Like trust these claims because I’m making them, these claims are then immediately after being proven through testimonials.
So, for example, this first one here before Fresh, I just invested twenty thousand in a membership in a mentorship program that completely disappointed me.
This then goes on to talk about, the results she got out of being inside of freshly implemented.
So that you can see, you know, this person has actually invested in some of these other options before and not got results, but with Fresh that that story was different.
There are a few more testimonials there that I won’t go into, but just want you to see that I’m improving these points as I’m making them so that those comparisons aren’t just hearsay for your prospect. They’re real. Right? They’re being proven.
That tab is being closed. There’s no room for doubts and hesitations. And again, you’re moving closely in that straight line towards your prospect saying yes to your offer.
Okay.
The final little side note that I wanted to leave you with was that comparisons also help us make sense of the world, which is a handy fact to keep in mind if your prospect is new to your kind or category of offer or if your offer is a brand new concept.
So again, as a really everyday example, I won’t talk about, the bread aisle again, but, a few weeks ago, I think it was now my oldest who’s three, he asked me what a donkey was. What’s a donkey?
He’s never seen a donkey before. I think maybe it was in a book that we were reading or a puzzle we were doing. I can’t remember. Anyway, the way I answered his question was taking something he already knew and talking about comparison points.
So he knows what a horse is. He’s seen a horse before. He’s been reading about horses in all sorts of books for many years. So I said, oh, donkeys are a bit like a horse, but they’re smaller, and they’ve got much bigger ears.
Now I’m sure there’s probably a better explanation out there about what a donkey is, but that was good enough for him. And it allowed him to really understand what a donkey was in some concrete terms because it took what he already knew and built on that knowledge using really simple comparisons.
So I mean, you’re probably not going to be using comparisons to explain what a donkey is in your copy. But of course, there may be a case where you are selling a mastermind to an audience of people who, for whatever reason, have never come across the term mastermind before. They don’t know what it is, but maybe they know what an online course is. If that’s the case, you can use comparisons to help build out their understanding to the point where they feel confident about the shape and the value of the offer they’re opting into.
It may also be for example that you’re dealing with an audience who doesn’t know what a custom GPT is, right? I’m sure that’s probably a much more probable scenario than someone who doesn’t know what a mastermind is. So again, taking what someone already knows and expanding that knowledge with the magic of comparisons.
So to put it another way, probably more succinctly because I wrote this rather than said it, the best approach here is to scaffold between what your prospect already understands and what they need to know to understand the value of the offer. So it’s just a really effective way to give someone a concrete understanding that again, they can share with other people if they need to. If they feel the need to justify their purchasing decision. If they want someone else to buy into the fact that they’re excited about buying this offer from you or from your client.
So just a really good thing to keep in mind.
Okay. The last thing that I want to just quickly touch on, before I end this workshop is the worksheet.
So you should already have access to this. If you don’t, I guess, let me know.
But what I have here are just some prompts for you. You may not need these, but just in case this helps you organize your data and organize your thoughts, lean into this. So four questions here for you. What other relevant or related offers has your ideal prospect tried or thought about trying before? Again, you can get this information from asking that one simple question in your voice of customer research.
If that for whatever reason is not available to you, some internet sleuthing would also allow you to do the same job.
Reddit is a great place where you might find, depending on what your offer is, some threads about it or its category of offer. So you can see what people are talking about and what things they have considered or tried before and how those stack up.
How did they miss the mark either in practice or in how they were perceived by your prospect? Again, that magic question in your voice of customer research will give you this data. This is just being able to organize it right into something that you can then very easily turn into copy.
How is your or your clients offer different and ideally better in relation to those points? Make each comparison as direct and specific as you can. So again, don’t be afraid to be really ballsy with this and lean on that voice of customer data, right? It is so much easier, to be able to share something someone else has said then and also also, we see more effective, than just to try and sift through your own brain and come up with the justifications and reasons and answers to this question here.
Finally, how can you prove some or all of those points of wealth? In the examples I’ve shared with you today, in both cases, that was via testimonials.
But, of course, there are other ways. So for example, let’s say you are selling a client’s online course and they have some sort of platform where, you can, you know, post questions and get support. And something that comes through in your research or in your feedback about that program is that that space is far more engaged and supportive, than other similar spaces they’ve been in before. So a way to prove that, in lieu of or in addition to testimonials would be, if you have permission from the people in the screenshot to take a screenshot of people asking for questions or asking for support within that space and getting really good, really quick, really valuable responses, right, from either other people in that space or from the person who actually heads up the program. That’s a really good way to prove that point.
If you are trying to prove how much the UX of your app, for example, or your client’s app, is better than the other available apps that do a similar thing, it might be that, you have a demo or a video that walks someone through all those different things so they can see exactly how easy it is, to click through and, you know, achieve a certain thing, create a task, whatever that might look like. So there are different ways that you can prove points. The important thing is that you do it so that you are not asking your prospect to trust you as you say all the ways your offer is different and better for them. But you are demonstrating that the points that you are making are true and that they’ve come from the people who are in the know.
Okay.
That is it. Like I mentioned at the start, if you have any questions or if you want a second set of eyes on maybe a comparison table that you’re going to now go and write into your sales pages or an email that you’re going to send, whatever that might look like, please just reach out, tag me in Slack, and I would absolutely love to help you.
It’s such an easy and effective technique to leverage in your copy.
So yeah, I just hope you go forth and start using it ASAP. I would love to hear how it goes. I would love to hear about the results you get. Okay.
That’s it for me.
I will see you in Slack. Bye.
Fired Up & Focused Followers: Pitching Your Webinar to High-Value Brands
Fired Up & Focused Followers: Pitching Your Webinar to High-Value Brands
Transcript
Guys, well, let’s jump in and get started with, the workshop. If anyone else turns up that’s okay, they can just slot in and sort themselves out as they’re going along. But as you hopefully know today’s session is building on, the process that Jo has started stepping you through this week, in terms of building out that Waking Up to the Problem webinar. Today’s workshop is all about, when it comes time to pitch that, how to actually do that to high value intimidating brands, keeping in mind all the mindset muck that is likely to appear as you go and put that, ask out into the world.
So before we jump into the worksheet today, I just want to do a bit of a quick, temperature check with you guys.
How are you feeling after the session with Joe earlier this week, in terms of, I guess, maybe having started ideally, putting together that that webinar, and having I guess, doing that process with something that’s clearly such a a direct sales tool. How are you guys feeling about that? And there’s no right or wrong answer here. Just wanted to sort sort of get the gauge. Feel free to pop something in the chat or unmute yourself and and share a few words, whatever suits best.
I was like I’ve just tried to start recording stuff today and saying, like, my minimum is or, like, your offer will start at twenty thousand dollars, and then we’ll do ten thousand dollars recurring because that’s just how our agency works, and that’s, like, the best way blah blah blah. That was really tough to actually say the first couple of times. I’m still struggling with it.
But, I’m stopping slowly stopping the stumbling.
Amazing. Yeah. Yeah.
I haven’t even thought about pitching people, though. That that idea is more scary than the actual work of putting it together.
Okay. Can you tell me more about that? Why is that part more scary?
I guess, like, my language is always like, hey there. How are you? Hope you’re having a great day. This is, like, me and my thing. And I know you’re busy, but if this is something that you think would be cool and, like, would align, we should totally connect kinda thing. Anyway, hope you have a great day. Bye.
That’s what I was I feel like I sound like on emails to people I don’t know.
Once I know them, no problem. But it’s that first touch.
Brand voice I’m still getting their time. I need to have a meeting with you. Maybe next.
Yeah. Awesome.
Yes. And I feel like I can definitely resonate with some of that too. I am someone who is far less direct in my language usually.
So I can imagine that seeing, you know, some of the examples of what Jo shared there for the opening and the closing of that webinar could have been quite, and feel quite uncomfortable to sort of try that language on. Just a reminder while you’re here that, you know, there it’s I think it’s actually important to make sure that you do appear in the way that you’re making those pictures. So it’s not about a true copy paste. You know, you must say those exact same words.
It is finding a way to be clear and direct, and calm, ideally, and in control. But you can also, you know, bring your own language into how to make that ask and how to make that pitch at the end of the workshop. So, I always feel that it is very easy to tell when someone is trying to wear someone else’s clothes in a sense and, you know, just, you know, stumble through a script that they’ve been given. So I would definitely encourage you, Claire, to take time to sit with, those things.
And I know that some of those messages, you know, need to be direct and they need to be as they are, but are there any ways that you can bring yourself more into those so that you feel a bit more comfortable when it comes comes time to actually say them out loud, inside? But it’s probably quite intimidating rooms, intimidating situations.
And maybe something for you to take away.
Esai and Todd, how are you guys feeling or going with that workshop?
So I found the entire structure that Joe laid out so brilliant because there’s very little to guess, but all the room that I need to improvise and just bring my process and my framework into it. But one of the things that I struggle with is, I don’t get called on tech in webinars and meetings. People My name is very difficult to pronounce, and I’m clearly not from the US. My I am not a native speaker.
Even though I worked in this field and I’ve built a reputation, by virtue of the results I get from my clients, it is still a challenge for me when I’m in a room where people don’t know me. So it the biases do work against me that she like, I am not needed, and I don’t know how to pronounce the name. So I am a little worried about, how my pitches are going to land of course. Because I know that hosts want to bring in the best experts on the whether it’s to their communities or their podcast.
And sometimes it does happen if you can’t pronounce a name, you would just sort of don’t call on that person. It’s just because you are in a lot a lot of pressure your your client facing. You don’t wanna offend me sometimes.
So that’s a challenge that I have, like, I have struggled with. One on one people are great, but when you are they are they are in a position where they don’t wanna stumble or make mistakes. So, one, so I am wondering how that’s gonna work and how’s that how to work around that when I’m sending out pitches to speak on podcast, like social media marketing. Like, I would I I I’m gonna be offering a mini chat, automation, but for lead gen and sort of to mirror customer journey and act as a sales concierge.
Right? Nice.
And nobody’s talking about it this way. Everybody’s using it as a link delivery system instead of, like, an actual powerful tool that it is.
And I know that even on social media marketing, social the social media examiner or the social media marketing podcast, which is the biggest podcast and, and websites. Nobody’s talking about this yet. So there is clearly a gap, but I don’t know. Part of it is real challenges are faced, and part of it is, like, am I the person who can fill that gap fill that gap, really? There are bigger, better experts.
Mhmm. So maybe like that.
Well, possibly, and that’s probably true for all of us. But, if you’re the first person to pitch the idea to that platform and you can do it in a way that makes them say, oh, god. Yes. I need to hear this.
My audience needs to hear this. And I love the phrase you use, sales concierge, and just talking about that then. I was like, well, that’s, like, that’s a brilliant concept. And the fact that you spoke about it and lit up, like, you’re clearly passionate about it.
So Mhmm. I think your idea is super solid. It needs to get out there. And I just say, I mean, I I mean, obviously, I come from a place of privilege as a, you know, a white lady with a relatively easy to pronounce name.
But your explanation that you gave me when I asked, like, an esai, like, could you put that even, like, as your first line in your email? Because all you need to do is just remove the guesswork for someone, take the awkwardness out of it. Right? You could even be like it’s like, you know, mail, email, sigh, e sigh, like, just so they’re like, oh, cool. I know how to say that name. Right.
Because I think it’s it’s not the name itself.
Right?
It’s the worry for someone about mispronouncing it and then perhaps having you either be silent from podcast and not correct them about it out and then have all these followers who call you the wrong thing or you having to pull them up sort of mid recording.
So just be upfront with it. That would be my best suggestion. And, I mean, even, like, to be honest, for me, a lot of Americans say my name Kirsty, So I’ve had to say, oh, it’s like thirsty with a k, like, you know, which is not as cool as your explanation. But, so just saying that, you know, I think that can just relieve depression, relieve that anxiety.
So Mhmm.
That feels like a really simple practical fix, but I love those other mindset gremlins that are lurking there because we’re definitely gonna talk more about those today.
Perfect. Thank you.
Pleasure.
And, Todd, you’re up. How are you feeling, thinking? What’s happening for your workshop and in your in your noggin?
Well, you know, this might blow Tina’s mind, when we’ve been talking lately. But for me, the the webinar itself what was it called here? Let me just get my notes up real quick. The wake them up to the problem webinar.
It made me think about that, but I had a good talk with Cody this week as well. And, I’m actually thinking about pivoting on my standard off my standard standardization offer, because it does take more time. There is more work that goes into it, and it’s great, but, like, it takes longer. So I’ve just been thinking about how I’m gonna pivot and what that’s going to look like, and I think it’s just gonna be a, like, a good game changer.
I can also bring people in easier. I can get things done faster. So that’s really what made me think about. The workshop, how I was going to do it, no change, but it’s the actual deliverable and how it will work that’s actually I’m thinking differently about.
Awesome. That’s huge. And I love that you’re thinking about that now and thinking about that first because, obviously, it’s really important to know where you’re wanting people to go, what you’re wanting them to do before you create the sales tools for that. So awesome.
Great. Okay. Well, let’s dive into, I guess, the meat of today’s, workshop.
I will be referring to the worksheet too. So if you I’ll share it on my screen, but if you guys have it at your end as well, feel free to open it.
Here we go.
Sorry. I’m always quite clunky with this soon stuff.
Okay. So I think the first thing that I wanna really make clear, is that because you are all and told you will soon be, in the space of creating this workshop, You’re very much in the mental space of thinking about how you could make this a really effective sales tool for you, right, which is where you need to be to create this thing for it to be successful. Right? So you’re in that right frame of mind definitely for the creation process.
But the problem is if you bring that frame of mind into the pitching process, it can really exacerbate all those mindset gremlins. Because if you approach, you know, pitching a really big deal, a partner or a business in your space with the mindset of like, oh, I’m thinking about how this could benefit me. Like, I’ll get to get in front of all that audience. And, you know, there’s so many of my ICPs there.
You know, I can borrow so much authority from them, then it can often feel like you’re asking that really big deal business or person for help, which, I mean, is quite an uncomfortable spot to be in.
I personally am terrible at asking people for help. I feel like, if you approach something from that sort of frame of mind, it can make you feel very small and very insignificant, which, of course, are not the kind of things you wanna be thinking about yourself or feeling about yourself as you’re trying to position yourself as an expert. Right? The right person to present this idea, the right person to present this workshop, and ultimately, the person who can actually help brands affect this idea, right, to help them solve all of those, really painful points that they’re facing.
So when you’re able to actually flip that frame around and approach your pitch thinking about how the workshop could benefit them it feels much more like you’re offering a service. So offering some sort of missing puzzle piece, something that can help round out their offer and get their audience better results, or something that could help optimize their process. Whatever makes sense for the context of your workshop and then of your offer.
So this is, I guess, the mindset shift that I wanna help you make today.
And I wanna help you get some, notes down on paper for this even though, as I said, I know that you’re sort of in the process still creating that workshop. Jo has more for you next week, I believe.
So you probably will have to go back to that mindset of, like, thinking about how this benefits you, right, how it can be a really good sales tool, how well does it lead into the actual pitch at the end, etcetera, etcetera. But I would love for you here and now to just take, five minutes. I don’t think it will take too long just to have a look at the first three questions in this worksheet. So how will your webinar benefit the person, business, brand you’re pitching?
And don’t be afraid to play the ego here. So a quick reminder that, you know, most well, I guess, all all brands and businesses have competitors, and therefore, all brands and brands and businesses love to have an edge, right? Something that their competitors don’t. They also love anything that enables them to, further their status as the best x in the space or the most efficient blah blah blah, whatever that might be.
So is there a way here that your webinar could, really play to their ego in that way in terms of the outcomes that it offers them? That might be a good way to think about it.
And these next two questions here for you too, how will it benefit their audience?
And finally, how, if at all, can you tailor it slightly? I’m not talking about reinventing the wheel here, but how can you make it feel bespoke? Right? Like a unique opportunity for, that business or brand.
Because if they’re a big player, they don’t want what everyone else is having. Right? They probably don’t want exactly the same thing that is on your website for your own audience.
So I’d love you to take five minutes just to jot some thoughts down there. Feel free to turn your camera off while you do that if you would like. I’ll turn mine off just so you’re not watching me looking at at at you.
But I will, come back in five minutes, and we can talk about what you’ve got down on paper, and, yeah, help you through any stumbling blocks. Okay.
Okay. That’s been five minutes.
When you’re ready, feel free to turn your camera back on.
Right. It’s fine. I just need another minute or so.
There we go.
Okay. How did everyone go? Anyone get stuck anywhere?
Anything come up for anyone as they were going through those prompts?
I I’m a little stuck.
Mhmm. Kinda. Still got some stuff down, but in terms of tailoring it to so it feels like a unique opportunity.
Okay.
I got like, I can tailor it to their audience. I can, you know, talk their language. So, like, let’s say I was doing it on Joe’s thing. I could use conversion copywriting, for example. I could use their framework. Right? Mhmm.
But that’s kinda where I got like, where I sort of stopped. I couldn’t figure out another tailoring opportunity.
Mhmm.
Can you give me some more context about who your workshop is for and and what it’s teaching, what it’s showing?
Sure. It’s for heads of growth, or marketing, and it is teaching people. It’s it’s one of the frameworks. Right? Listen. It’s like the drill with me kind of thing.
Mhmm. Yep.
And it’s teaching them how to think about their onboarding in a way that gets people to actually activate or gets more of their audience more of their sorry. More of their free users to activate into paid customers.
Amazing. Got it. Sorry.
It’s late. No.
No. It’s all good.
Okay. Perfect. So, yes, I think, you tailoring it to use their language is an excellent idea because that is a way of you not only entering into their world more specifically, but also indicating that you know their world well enough, right, that you give enough shits, that you’ve done enough research, that, you know, you’re really well qualified to lead this workshop for that group or for that business. So I think that’s an excellent idea.
I may know other examples or ideas are coming from the top of my head.
Are there any examples that you may share within the workshop? I don’t know if you’re down to that level of content yet. I know it’s taking through the diagnostic.
Is there anything in there that you do use sort of any real world examples for, or is it Yeah.
They’re not mine, but I borrowed them.
So the one is I’ll talk people through product adoption indicators, and those are that a product adoption indicator is the moment that you know that a user is activated. Right? And for Slack, it’s two thousand messages. If you haven’t sent two thousand messages, then you’re you’re not sticky yet. You’re not considered an activated, like, fully onboarded user.
Mhmm. That’s the one example. The other example is HubSpot. HubSpot reworked their entire onboarding flow and saw a fifteen percent lift in retention, which is kinda like a wait. Retention?
Not activation?
That’s weird, moment. But retention is actually the the whole big point to onboarding because it’s the thing that makes the graph go like that rather than like that.
Yes.
Awesome. Okay.
Well, I mean, I feel like there are examples that, you know, your people that you’re pitching would absolutely know.
Right? Who doesn’t know Slack? Who doesn’t know HubSpot?
So that’s awesome.
I think in that case, obviously, being able to tell tailor the language so that it sits within their ecosystem and their frame of reference, I think that would be perfect, because I think anything else beyond that is probably gonna take you forever and ever to do, which is not the point. Right? You wanna have this workshop mainly nailed down, and it’s about making any tiny little tweaks that you can just to make it hyper specific, hyper relevant, and to demonstrate that you know about their business, you know about their brand. So I think by bringing their frame of reference in, I think that’s actually pretty peachy.
Oh, thank you.
My pleasure. Toto, Isai, anything sticky or tricky or challenging come up for you two?
So I took a lot of notes from what Claire wrote because I did not have customized the audience, and I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. So thank you, Claire. So I definitely have that written down now. But, a couple of things that I have is, number one, the way the framework that I’m teaching, even people who are teaching ManyChat, nobody else is teaching.
Nobody else is talking about it this way. Right? Like, I’m essentially talking about a two way sync between your social and email. People usually have no idea whether the people on the email list are also following them on social or not.
It’s such a like, to me, it’s, like, mind boggling when you think about it. Like, why would you not want complete information about your people? Right? Nobody’s talking about so you you and your community will be the first people to wake up your audience to talk about like, essentially, wake wake them up to this problem, and they’re seen as somebody who’s bringing cutting edge trends to that, number one.
And number two, we will help you market us market it internally as well as example. Even if it’s a closed community, there’s value in talking about it, marketing it. So people will wanna join. Even if it’s not open now, people will take notice and then, like, hey.
That’s something I’ve never heard anywhere else. So when do you open next? I would like to I would like to be a part of that community. Right?
So we would help you market it as By that, I mean, create assets, promote it myself, and create assets so you can promote it as well. So it gives you brings you more visibility.
And we’ll project manage the whole thing. Because I have a team, I can do that.
And the third thing, and this is actually very unique to me, my business essentially runs on referrals, and I have a policy of giving a ten percent referral fee to anybody who sends, who makes a connection or send, like, sends me somebody.
And I usually give ten percent for the first six months. Any project they sign for the first six months, I give like, it’s like it’s like how cookies work.
And I say it’ll it’s gonna take me at least six months to build my own good bill until then I’m trading on yours. So you deserve to be compensated. So I but I am wondering, is this something good to offer to people that I’m willing to teach? Hey. If any of them do end up working with me, I’m happy to give maybe ten percent or five percent that. But is that is that gonna be a turn off for the kind of people that are gonna be pitching? Are they gonna think I’m gonna come in and sell hard?
I actually don’t think you need that. Your the answer to the first prompt that you shared is so compelling, like, to be the first people ever to be able to see how you’re conceptualizing this and the opportunities there. Like, yeah, sign me up for that. I I don’t think you need the the referral, to be in there Okay.
As part of the pitch. Okay. And I would also question too because I think what is hopefully or potentially gonna happen for you is that this workshop will actually become a tool a sales tool for you that doesn’t rely on that referral bonus system, which, I mean, I’ve all four referral bonuses, obviously, it’s worked well for you so far, but this will be a way where you can get in front of people and sell them on your brain and your skills and what you can do for them without actually having to rely on that referral bonus. And you’ll have the workshop itself as a method by which to build know, like, and trust with those people.
So, you know, you said that, you know, you’re borrowing, you know, the person who refers them. You’re borrowing their goodwill for for the first six months. This being able to be in a room with you, see you, hear you, understand what it is you can do for them, that really accelerates that know, like, and trust process. So I actually don’t think you need to include that referral bonus.
And, you know, if you if you if you find out that, actually, that would be really helpful, then you can always add it in, you know, for the next the next workshop that you deliver for the next business. But I strongly encourage you to not not include that for the first the first time because I think the fact that this is such a unique opportunity is amazing, and I think that’s such a compelling reason for someone to say yes to your pitch.
Okay. Yeah. Thank you. I’ll try that for a little bit. Amazing.
Hi, Marina, by the way. Hello.
Hello.
Todd, how did you go with the prompts?
So we’re just talking about the three answers. Correct? The three questions with three answers. Correct? Okay. Cool.
That’s right. Yes.
Yeah. So in terms of how we will benefit them, what I’m looking at is it’s a Philippine ICP workshop. So it’s gonna help put a face to the market and increase conversion rates from the industry standard of five percent.
It’s also gonna create a buyer for them versus selling a product or service.
It’ll benefit their audience because it’s gonna provide clarity in a cluttered landscape. I don’t know if anyone’s ever heard of the surplus economic theory. You’re either first, your second, or your last. So people are searching for your type of brand, and they’ll find you. Then they’re gonna find something that’s kinda close to what you do.
And if they don’t find that, they’ll choose what’s last, and then they’re really not never gonna be happy. So the idea is provide that clarity, be their first choice, and go from there. And then the third one is how would I tailor it? It would be with, one to one interviews and switching up their mindset about how they look at their clients. Most people have come into ICP processes.
They have really no idea of their client. They just think of product, product, product, service, service, service. And then it’s like, well, who is it for? And they’re like, shit.
I, and then you ask questions like, are they male, female? What’s your age? All these things. And some people just get really kind of annoyed because you’re forcing them to get out of the business itself.
So just the one to one when I’m done.
People are just like, wow. Like, you know, it we were talking about this person last night or after a process. I’ve had someone by the name sign up for their product or service. It’s really kinda weird. So that’s what I would do is put those three answers.
Amazing. And you’re I mean, you sound like you’re so clear and compelling and sharp with those responses. So I feel like you’re definitely on a track, Todd. It’s awesome to see.
Hope so.
I hope so. You get you get thrown wrenches in these programs all the time, but but sometimes when when Joe does things, you’re like, shit. Shit. So yeah.
Yes. I think we can all relate.
Amazing. And and then I guess my bigger question for, all of you is how did it feel to sort of switch that frame and to spend some time thinking about all the goodness that exists in your workshop for the people you’re pitching?
Did that have any impact on how you feel about the workshop and how you feel about pitching on how you feel sort of in your body when you’re working through those responses, and it may not have. There’s I’m not I’m not fishing for confirmation. I’m curious.
No. This reframe was really helpful because I was thinking, like, who am I to pitch these big podcasts and websites that I’ve been following?
But now I feel like like nobody else is talking about it. So clearly, it’s it’s of benefit to them to have me on and talk about these things, and it’s like, my podcast with at the the copywriters club was the third most downloaded that year. And I had I was so nervous when I was talking to Rob during the during the recording that I was, like, shaking and all that. But the episode obviously resonated with a lot of, with a lot of people, and it’s happened to be over and over again from other episodes that I’ve recorded.
So, clearly, it’s gonna be of benefit to them. And just thinking about it like that, I think it’s gonna it it does remove a little bit of the desperate energy. I think I was already bringing into the pitch because it’s not something you’re going to do for me now. It’s something that I’m going to do for you and your audience.
So I think that is going to translate so much better into the pitch.
Amazing.
So good to hear. I’m so excited for you. I’m so excited to see your your pictures and and your workshop live in the world.
Me too. Thank you.
And I also just wanted to make a note there too before I forget.
It’s interesting, isn’t it, how, as you mentioned, for the Copywriter Club podcast, you were so nervous, but, obviously, that didn’t translate to how you were perceived in the terms of the episode. So just a good thing to keep in mind too that you can feel so nervous in the moment when you’re doing something, and you can be so sure that it’s translating. But then if you do listen back or you get feedback from it, that’s not always obvious to the people listening. And I think that can be helpful too, something to keep in mind that no one can see what’s going on inside of you.
Yeah. So yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, just a good thing to think of when you are nervous.
Yeah. It’s so weird. That’s the only podcast where I didn’t say a single or a because I was too nervous too, so I was speaking very slowly. And I was like, how is this part where I look through the transcript? I didn’t say or a, like, even once. But I’m like, okay. So it paid off to be that nervous that I was speaking slowly and deliberately that it came off as confident and not, like, you know, shaking.
That’s amazing. You found you found a hack.
Any other thoughts on this stuff before we move on, Claire or Todd? And Marina, sorry. I just should have upped the energy. We’re just going through the, the first three, questions in the worksheet for this session, just in terms of helping shift the frame from, what your workshop can do for you in terms of being a really killer sales tool into what it can actually do for the people that you’re pitching it to.
Thank you.
I still feel kind of scared and salesy.
So Mhmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. I feel like to what to this stuff, I think my my my block or wall to climb is huge. Like yeah. It’s it’s gonna take time.
I do a lot of sailing, and I remember when I started, I was like, how do I improve? How do I get better? I’m learning all this stuff. And everyone said, you can learn as much as you want on books, but it’s time on the water.
Yes.
And it kinda feels like it’s just gonna be time on the water.
One hundred percent. That’s the perfect analogy. Because it is, you know, you can only psych yourself so much up, you know, and learn so much and do all the theory. But at the end of the day, you do need to take the leap and make it a real world thing. And every time it gets better, every time it gets easier, every time it gets more comfortable.
And I think what was last month or the month before that I mentioned that, you know, we often misinterpret discomfort as a sign that we’re doing something we shouldn’t be, but really it’s more often than not a sign that we’re pushing for more or different or better.
So I just encourage you not to see that discomfort as a sign that you’re doing the wrong thing and going in the wrong direction. It’s just that you’re literally growing your comfort zone, getting your sea legs on. That might not be the best addition to your metaphor, but, there you have it. And I also think something I thought of for you too.
Was it you who was saying that you had one of your mindset thoughts was who am I to teach this? Or maybe that was Esai.
No. But that guy totally resonates.
Like, who am I in this grand scheme of everything? Like, there are so many experts out there. I’ve just gone and, like, plucked this from my imagination and, like Mhmm. Study and gone. I have this brand new idea, and I think it works. Let’s see.
Mhmm.
It catches like I’ve been following other people’s frameworks for so long.
It feels bizarre to sort of just try be the master instead of the student. I’m awful. I’m all the geese tonight. Sorry.
I love it.
Yes. And very like, it’s such an exciting place to be, I think, when you’re finally generating your own ideas and concepts, right, and models. Right? You’re no longer just a carbon copy of someone else’s path, but you’ve been able to gather enough experience.
And who you are in a life that you’ve lived has enabled you to see things in a different light, and you’re now putting that out there, you know, as something that is uniquely yours. Obviously, very terrifying because if it’s all yours, then it’s all yours to fail. Right? You know?
I think we all feel that on some level.
So just normalizing that for you. And also wanted to say that I think often, particularly when we are pitching ourselves to, people or brands who are really big deal in our space, we often confuse the size of their success with the size of their knowledge about what we have to share. So we’re if you can imagine circles, like, we’re like, okay. They’re this big deal.
Like, this is their knowledge. They’re huge. And I’m like, I’m in here. I’m this little tiny circle in here.
Like, what do I have to offer? But the reality is that we both have big circles of knowledge, and the overlap is quite small. So so much of your circle is absolutely brand new to them even though they’re a huge established business.
I don’t know if that helps, and I don’t know if I’ve explained that very well.
Would be a good time. It’s a Venn diagram.
It’s a circle, and then it’s a circle inside the circle, and then another slightly overlapping circle.
Yes. The big circle is their success.
You know, it’s so interesting you said that, Christy. I Christy, I was actually doing my structural research on my ICP, and one of them is head of content. And doctoral, they give you it gives you keywords. Right?
What are the keywords they’re searching? Like, the top ten keywords are, like, basic SEO tips, like how to do SEO, like a simple beginner’s guide to SEO. It’s like the top ten search, and these are heads of head of content in, like, SaaS companies. And I was like, what?
Thank you.
Isn’t that amazing?
So hopeful.
Yes. That’s so reassuring, isn’t it? It’s like, cool. That’s where their head’s at. It’s like, I’m way above that for that yet.
That’s amazing.
Had anything come up for you, and no pressure.
If if not, feel free to just shake your head, and I won’t force you to to talk to me.
No. No one’s ever forced here. So, yeah. Yeah. I think everything that comes down to what we’re doing in pitch, mindset, everything for me is just the the acceleration nature.
I think these are things that you might, like, be a little dilettante shit and kinda dabble and try and figure it out, but this forces you. There’s like you know, Ryan Schwartz always talked about that, authentic scarcity. It’s not FOMO, but it’s, like, just forcing you to, like there’s an urgent timer behind you and, like, you just feel it and you’re kinda like, stop. Leave me alone.
And it’s just kinda there and it’s but it’s it’s effective. Right? You you’re you’re coming into programs and, and meetings where other people are doing it and you’re seeing it and, like, Claire’s talking about it and what she’s going through, but she’s doing it. She’s showing up.
She’s in the you know, you’re in the boat, Claire. You know what I mean? And it’s it’s tough, but that’s what it is for me. It’s the acceleration.
I I’ve been working ICPs for a while. We did as a a studio, we did ICPs, but it’s always on the website and, you know, it’s more inbound. And what we’re doing now is more outbound. And it’s just accelerating that that approach.
And you’re literally going, like, we sign up for webinars. Now we’re running webinars in a workshop. So it’s just, again, that mindset. Right?
And that’s to me, it’s just the acceleration nature. I love it myself. It makes for long days, but I love it. And when you when we all when you get it together, you can see it’s laid out.
So that’s what it is for me. It’s just taking what I’ve already had and just refining it more. Right? So and this group is kinda like iron sharpening iron for me.
It helps you with everything that we do.
So Amazing.
I love the way you conceptualize things, Todd. It’s very cool to hear because you’re right. There is a big acceleration happening, and I think particularly in CSP. Right? There’s a new theme every month that Joe’s dropping knowledge nuggets everywhere.
And Every month.
Every day, I go I go into coffee school like CSP. I’m like, oh, man.
Do you know what this is?
What you wanna do? And you’re like, oh, just getting it done and trying to document it and do it. And, like, everyone here is it’s funny. Again, everyone here is questioning it, but we’re, you know, it’s like, because we’re learning from a different way and it’s, like, just being patient with it as we accelerate.
Right? But again, yeah. I I mean, I it’s when you say conceptualize, it’s actually for me, the concept that was always there. What I’m learning is that, again, we’re just framing a concept that we already had.
And just making because if it makes sense to us, it will definitely make sense to anybody else because what we do is persuade people.
So That’s right.
So I did also have, just going back to the worksheet, I did also have a section in there to help you actually craft the pitch, but I think just given, that Joe’s workshop is two part. Hang on. Let me put this in present mode.
Sorry. I love that in music. Not sure why that was there.
So I think I will actually leave this, second half of the worksheet for you guys to dive into as you need because I suspect if the workshops themselves aren’t yet finalized, Jo has obviously more to step you through next week. We might be jumping the gun a little bit here.
But please come back and use this if you do need some help and some structure to guide you on getting that first pitch on paper, because often that first one can be the hardest. Right?
And please ping me in Slack as you go if you’re like, hey, Kirsty. I’m getting stuck on this. I need some help with this. Or can you review this for me? I would absolutely love to do that. And the one other thing I note, and I see your hand tied, I’ll, get to you in a sec before I forget.
I suspect after seeing Jo’s worksheet, it may be that, that she will be encouraging you to pitch, leading with pains rather than benefits.
But anyway, that will be TBC. So just highlighting that there may be a difference there.
This is the structure that I usually use for my pictures. My pictures are usually very successful, so this does work. It might just be a different, I guess, focus than what Joe may be may be teaching you. Alright.
Cool. If it’s okay, we have a couple of minutes just sitting where where we are. For anyone who has ever seen me in these these groups, I never really asked for critique. So it’s not something I normally share.
So if possible, if if it’s okay, when you’re saying crafting your pitch, I wrote one. Can I just check it out here and I’ll put it in Slack and then just say it out loud? And I wouldn’t mind some critique on it if possible. Anybody I want a game for that.
Cool. So here’s the in chat, there’s the actual relevance because you you said, like, why am I pitching?
Mhmm. Great. Yep.
And then the actual promise is this.
And the again, if for anyone just reading, the the pitch itself was the targeting is on point. Because we know if you’ve got a great brand, as soon as you start researching them, you’re gonna get retargeting no matter where you’re and what’s going on. And then, yeah, the the promise is what I’m I’m curious about as well.
And the promise is nineteen words, so it’s very on brand voice, Claire. We’ll talk about that after.
So the promise part is, the the way it’s phrased is confusing me a little bit, but maybe I’m just missing a piece of context.
So the promise is that you start with shared language, or is that Yes.
So it’s the it start with shared language. So that’s all all one sentence, but it just broken up with the call. So it start with shared language. K. And shared language is understanding your ICPs.
And when you understand the ICPs that it was one to one interviews, brand voice naturally comes out of that through osmosis. And then, really, what happens, you’re able to stay on brand throughout all channels by knowing your vocabulary, by not only knowing the client, but knowing your vocabulary, your cadence, and your tone.
Awesome. So I’m just curious. Do you think the people you are pitching would know what start with shared language means, that phrase?
No. That’s why the ICP will be bringing them into that. The actual story of the workshop would be ICP. And then as I promote, it will be based on you know, we’ll break down what a shared language is and all of those things, like, through promotion, through authority building.
Okay. Cool. Because I feel like the way you explained it the second time. I was like, ah, cool.
I understand why that’s valuable. So I think for the pitch itself, you know, you need to sort of meet them where they’re at and not use any of your terms too early on in the pitch. Yeah. Because it’s it’s less meaningful.
Right? If they’re like, I don’t know what this means. But if you can explain to them in terms that it’s a mate. Right?
Like, they’re your ICP, so you’re gonna be pulling the words from their head in terms of what they’re thinking about and what they would love to achieve.
I would suggest leading with that and using that language in the promise rather than the language of what you’re going to step them through during the workshop because they’re not there yet.
Hundred percent.
That make sense?
Hundred percent.
Any other thoughts?
If I might add something, I would reconsider putting the part where you say put a face to your ideal flying profile because that sort of gives away a little bit of your process. And I’ve found that sometimes people have resistance towards certain things, so they feel like either they assume they already know what you’re going to talk what you’re going to talk about, but they will decide whether it’s for them or not even before understanding what it is. So I would rather I would actually suggest removing your process from it entirely and only speak about the benefits like you like you did when you act when you’re actually talking about it, you didn’t talk about putting a face. You only talked about the benefits that they will get, which Claire so beautifully summarized. So I think that’s a lot more powerful.
Yep. Hundred percent. Thank you.
Awesome. Any other thoughts from anyone or any other questions from you, Todd? No? Amazing. Thanks for sharing that. Claire?
Yeah. I just wanna say, Todd, I find you so eloquent. Like, when you’re I honestly feel like you should just talk and, like, get it down on paper and then use that. Just talk and tell chat g p t to, like, neaten it up a bit because you’re so eloquent in speech, honestly.
Like, every time you talk, I’m like, oh my gosh. You sound so intelligent. Everything’s, like, all packaged together in these nice ideas. Why can’t I do that?
Can do that on writing.
Like, when I talk, I start going in tangents.
So yeah.
That’s actually what I just summarized was what you, like, said verbatim.
So that yeah.
Okay. My question.
I would love to see an example of one of your, successful or even unsuccessful pitches and what that actually looks like because I have no idea what I would even start typing.
Like Yeah.
Of course.
I’m so happy to share one of those with you. It will be a dive through my Google Drive, though. So is it okay if I pop plunk it in Slack later today? Is that alright?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. Whatever works. That would just be so helpful to, like, yeah, move move past the, like, I don’t know what to write kind of plot.
Yeah. Of course. No problems whatsoever.
And I know. Seeing real life thing is actually quite helpful. I might even have two.
I’ve kept any of these. I may even have some too. I have, like, the back and forth then from the person I was pitching, which might also be helpful to see because often it’s not just that you send the pitch and then it’s like booked in done. There can often be some back and forth in terms of them, you know, working things out and locking it in. So I can see if I have any of those two email chains that I’ve shared and sorry. Kept. And I can share those and just block out names and email addresses so that no one’s vulnerable.
Thank you so much. That’d be very helpful.
My pleasure. Esai.
So my first part of my question was gonna be that, you know, what does that conversation look like? Because, obviously, the first pitch is not gonna be the one that immediately converts. So how do we I have I have a process that I follow for myself and for my clients that sort of works. We do a multichannel approach, like email, social, sort of keep one channel.
We follow-up on follow-up via email, but just sort of chat and just have a friendly conversation via social. So it’s never awkward, even though it’s a door or whatever. The relationship is still alive. But I would love to know your process of what that conversation looks like, One, so thank you for sharing that.
But two, I was also wondering and I know you have a part with call to action here, but what that looks like because it might not be an immediate yes or an immediate let’s get on a call. Right? So would it be better to have a a different call to action at the first pitch, or what is it that you would recommend?
Yeah. So I think this is where context is really important. Right?
So even the platform of which you’re pitching, so you’re thinking about some podcast, right, for example, or if you’re thinking about, speaking inside of someone else’s paid program or mastermind, that’s gonna be different to pitching, say, ActiveCampaign to be, you know, to present a workshop customers. So Mhmm. I think thinking about the context of that, like, what is the call to action that actually makes sense? Like, how are you gonna be most likely to book this workshop in?
So and I think also the context too of, like, what is your relationship with the person you’re pitching? Because in some cases you may have like a connection with them. Maybe you met them at an event, you know, maybe you both have worked with the same person. There could be something there that you could leverage as well.
Or is it just a pure cold pitch, right, where you you just know that this is gonna be a really high value brand for you to actually get in tunnel.
So, thinking through all of those things, I think, can help you determine the call to action.
So for example, with if when I’m pitching podcasts, it’s never jump on a call because I think I’ve actually never had to jump on a call to land a podcast spot. Yeah. Yeah. I find that with podcasts, it’s all done via email.
Yeah. That’s been my experience. So Yeah. My call to action has been usually something along the lines of, you know, how do you think this would land for your audience?
Hit reply and let me know. So something as simple as that that just stimulates a conversation. And then if I don’t hear back from them within, say, three working days, I’ll then just follow-up and say, hey. Just wanted to to see how you you know, how this is sitting for you.
So, you know, a much softer CTA in that case because of the context of the fact that, you know, the podcast track isn’t gonna wanna jump on a call with me before they get me on the podcast. Like, the call was gonna be the interview.
Yeah. Yeah.
But that’s helpful. I just ran with you.
I can No. No. No. That’s helpful because I did. I I am thinking about pitching whole pitching podcast that don’t know me and I don’t have a preexisting relationship with.
So the softer CD, I think, is what I was thinking. Like, how does this idea did did you have the follow-up was thinking, did you have any suggestion? Would you suggest tweaks or what else came up along with Yes. Thing of, like, referencing some of the more recent podcasts.
I think that could be a good way to follow-up as well.
Yes. Definitely. Anything that’s current or relevant, I think, is always a good a good way to follow-up.
And I do think I think, actually, I shared one of my podcast pictures, in Slack a few months ago.
So I can see if it I’ll I’ll go back and tag you in it, Esai, because Yeah.
And maybe Claire as well if you’d like to see that one. I don’t know if podcasts are relevant for yep.
Cool. I’ll I’ll tag you both, and and if anyone else wants me to tag them, let me know.
But that was for Rick Mulready’s, Art of Online Business podcast, which at the time was a really, huge win for me.
So yeah. Was that a yes tag me please too from Todd or okay. Awesome.
Okay.
Easy.
Any final thoughts, questions, conundrums, cries for help?
No.
Well, as always, it’s been an absolute pleasure to spend this hour with you all.
Please ping me in Slack. I’ll go find that post with the podcast pitch now, and I’ll go through my Google Drive and find some more that I can share, Claire, and hopefully some email exchanges too, just so you can see sort of what the back and forth can look like and and how the the pitch can, I guess, not evolve, but how it can sort of have some flex in it to to really meet what the ideal you know, the person you’re pitching might want?
Any questions as you go along and do any of this stuff, if you need any pep talks or anything, please reach out in Slack. Just tag me, and I’ll see it.
I would love to really, like, help you as you go, so please don’t be shy.
Alright. I’ll see you in Slack.
Thank you so much. I’m definitely gonna ask for a pet dog. Great. Yes. Do. Please do.
Alright. Thanks, everyone.
Thank you.
Transcript
Guys, well, let’s jump in and get started with, the workshop. If anyone else turns up that’s okay, they can just slot in and sort themselves out as they’re going along. But as you hopefully know today’s session is building on, the process that Jo has started stepping you through this week, in terms of building out that Waking Up to the Problem webinar. Today’s workshop is all about, when it comes time to pitch that, how to actually do that to high value intimidating brands, keeping in mind all the mindset muck that is likely to appear as you go and put that, ask out into the world.
So before we jump into the worksheet today, I just want to do a bit of a quick, temperature check with you guys.
How are you feeling after the session with Joe earlier this week, in terms of, I guess, maybe having started ideally, putting together that that webinar, and having I guess, doing that process with something that’s clearly such a a direct sales tool. How are you guys feeling about that? And there’s no right or wrong answer here. Just wanted to sort sort of get the gauge. Feel free to pop something in the chat or unmute yourself and and share a few words, whatever suits best.
I was like I’ve just tried to start recording stuff today and saying, like, my minimum is or, like, your offer will start at twenty thousand dollars, and then we’ll do ten thousand dollars recurring because that’s just how our agency works, and that’s, like, the best way blah blah blah. That was really tough to actually say the first couple of times. I’m still struggling with it.
But, I’m stopping slowly stopping the stumbling.
Amazing. Yeah. Yeah.
I haven’t even thought about pitching people, though. That that idea is more scary than the actual work of putting it together.
Okay. Can you tell me more about that? Why is that part more scary?
I guess, like, my language is always like, hey there. How are you? Hope you’re having a great day. This is, like, me and my thing. And I know you’re busy, but if this is something that you think would be cool and, like, would align, we should totally connect kinda thing. Anyway, hope you have a great day. Bye.
That’s what I was I feel like I sound like on emails to people I don’t know.
Once I know them, no problem. But it’s that first touch.
Brand voice I’m still getting their time. I need to have a meeting with you. Maybe next.
Yeah. Awesome.
Yes. And I feel like I can definitely resonate with some of that too. I am someone who is far less direct in my language usually.
So I can imagine that seeing, you know, some of the examples of what Jo shared there for the opening and the closing of that webinar could have been quite, and feel quite uncomfortable to sort of try that language on. Just a reminder while you’re here that, you know, there it’s I think it’s actually important to make sure that you do appear in the way that you’re making those pictures. So it’s not about a true copy paste. You know, you must say those exact same words.
It is finding a way to be clear and direct, and calm, ideally, and in control. But you can also, you know, bring your own language into how to make that ask and how to make that pitch at the end of the workshop. So, I always feel that it is very easy to tell when someone is trying to wear someone else’s clothes in a sense and, you know, just, you know, stumble through a script that they’ve been given. So I would definitely encourage you, Claire, to take time to sit with, those things.
And I know that some of those messages, you know, need to be direct and they need to be as they are, but are there any ways that you can bring yourself more into those so that you feel a bit more comfortable when it comes comes time to actually say them out loud, inside? But it’s probably quite intimidating rooms, intimidating situations.
And maybe something for you to take away.
Esai and Todd, how are you guys feeling or going with that workshop?
So I found the entire structure that Joe laid out so brilliant because there’s very little to guess, but all the room that I need to improvise and just bring my process and my framework into it. But one of the things that I struggle with is, I don’t get called on tech in webinars and meetings. People My name is very difficult to pronounce, and I’m clearly not from the US. My I am not a native speaker.
Even though I worked in this field and I’ve built a reputation, by virtue of the results I get from my clients, it is still a challenge for me when I’m in a room where people don’t know me. So it the biases do work against me that she like, I am not needed, and I don’t know how to pronounce the name. So I am a little worried about, how my pitches are going to land of course. Because I know that hosts want to bring in the best experts on the whether it’s to their communities or their podcast.
And sometimes it does happen if you can’t pronounce a name, you would just sort of don’t call on that person. It’s just because you are in a lot a lot of pressure your your client facing. You don’t wanna offend me sometimes.
So that’s a challenge that I have, like, I have struggled with. One on one people are great, but when you are they are they are in a position where they don’t wanna stumble or make mistakes. So, one, so I am wondering how that’s gonna work and how’s that how to work around that when I’m sending out pitches to speak on podcast, like social media marketing. Like, I would I I I’m gonna be offering a mini chat, automation, but for lead gen and sort of to mirror customer journey and act as a sales concierge.
Right? Nice.
And nobody’s talking about it this way. Everybody’s using it as a link delivery system instead of, like, an actual powerful tool that it is.
And I know that even on social media marketing, social the social media examiner or the social media marketing podcast, which is the biggest podcast and, and websites. Nobody’s talking about this yet. So there is clearly a gap, but I don’t know. Part of it is real challenges are faced, and part of it is, like, am I the person who can fill that gap fill that gap, really? There are bigger, better experts.
Mhmm. So maybe like that.
Well, possibly, and that’s probably true for all of us. But, if you’re the first person to pitch the idea to that platform and you can do it in a way that makes them say, oh, god. Yes. I need to hear this.
My audience needs to hear this. And I love the phrase you use, sales concierge, and just talking about that then. I was like, well, that’s, like, that’s a brilliant concept. And the fact that you spoke about it and lit up, like, you’re clearly passionate about it.
So Mhmm. I think your idea is super solid. It needs to get out there. And I just say, I mean, I I mean, obviously, I come from a place of privilege as a, you know, a white lady with a relatively easy to pronounce name.
But your explanation that you gave me when I asked, like, an esai, like, could you put that even, like, as your first line in your email? Because all you need to do is just remove the guesswork for someone, take the awkwardness out of it. Right? You could even be like it’s like, you know, mail, email, sigh, e sigh, like, just so they’re like, oh, cool. I know how to say that name. Right.
Because I think it’s it’s not the name itself.
Right?
It’s the worry for someone about mispronouncing it and then perhaps having you either be silent from podcast and not correct them about it out and then have all these followers who call you the wrong thing or you having to pull them up sort of mid recording.
So just be upfront with it. That would be my best suggestion. And, I mean, even, like, to be honest, for me, a lot of Americans say my name Kirsty, So I’ve had to say, oh, it’s like thirsty with a k, like, you know, which is not as cool as your explanation. But, so just saying that, you know, I think that can just relieve depression, relieve that anxiety.
So Mhmm.
That feels like a really simple practical fix, but I love those other mindset gremlins that are lurking there because we’re definitely gonna talk more about those today.
Perfect. Thank you.
Pleasure.
And, Todd, you’re up. How are you feeling, thinking? What’s happening for your workshop and in your in your noggin?
Well, you know, this might blow Tina’s mind, when we’ve been talking lately. But for me, the the webinar itself what was it called here? Let me just get my notes up real quick. The wake them up to the problem webinar.
It made me think about that, but I had a good talk with Cody this week as well. And, I’m actually thinking about pivoting on my standard off my standard standardization offer, because it does take more time. There is more work that goes into it, and it’s great, but, like, it takes longer. So I’ve just been thinking about how I’m gonna pivot and what that’s going to look like, and I think it’s just gonna be a, like, a good game changer.
I can also bring people in easier. I can get things done faster. So that’s really what made me think about. The workshop, how I was going to do it, no change, but it’s the actual deliverable and how it will work that’s actually I’m thinking differently about.
Awesome. That’s huge. And I love that you’re thinking about that now and thinking about that first because, obviously, it’s really important to know where you’re wanting people to go, what you’re wanting them to do before you create the sales tools for that. So awesome.
Great. Okay. Well, let’s dive into, I guess, the meat of today’s, workshop.
I will be referring to the worksheet too. So if you I’ll share it on my screen, but if you guys have it at your end as well, feel free to open it.
Here we go.
Sorry. I’m always quite clunky with this soon stuff.
Okay. So I think the first thing that I wanna really make clear, is that because you are all and told you will soon be, in the space of creating this workshop, You’re very much in the mental space of thinking about how you could make this a really effective sales tool for you, right, which is where you need to be to create this thing for it to be successful. Right? So you’re in that right frame of mind definitely for the creation process.
But the problem is if you bring that frame of mind into the pitching process, it can really exacerbate all those mindset gremlins. Because if you approach, you know, pitching a really big deal, a partner or a business in your space with the mindset of like, oh, I’m thinking about how this could benefit me. Like, I’ll get to get in front of all that audience. And, you know, there’s so many of my ICPs there.
You know, I can borrow so much authority from them, then it can often feel like you’re asking that really big deal business or person for help, which, I mean, is quite an uncomfortable spot to be in.
I personally am terrible at asking people for help. I feel like, if you approach something from that sort of frame of mind, it can make you feel very small and very insignificant, which, of course, are not the kind of things you wanna be thinking about yourself or feeling about yourself as you’re trying to position yourself as an expert. Right? The right person to present this idea, the right person to present this workshop, and ultimately, the person who can actually help brands affect this idea, right, to help them solve all of those, really painful points that they’re facing.
So when you’re able to actually flip that frame around and approach your pitch thinking about how the workshop could benefit them it feels much more like you’re offering a service. So offering some sort of missing puzzle piece, something that can help round out their offer and get their audience better results, or something that could help optimize their process. Whatever makes sense for the context of your workshop and then of your offer.
So this is, I guess, the mindset shift that I wanna help you make today.
And I wanna help you get some, notes down on paper for this even though, as I said, I know that you’re sort of in the process still creating that workshop. Jo has more for you next week, I believe.
So you probably will have to go back to that mindset of, like, thinking about how this benefits you, right, how it can be a really good sales tool, how well does it lead into the actual pitch at the end, etcetera, etcetera. But I would love for you here and now to just take, five minutes. I don’t think it will take too long just to have a look at the first three questions in this worksheet. So how will your webinar benefit the person, business, brand you’re pitching?
And don’t be afraid to play the ego here. So a quick reminder that, you know, most well, I guess, all all brands and businesses have competitors, and therefore, all brands and brands and businesses love to have an edge, right? Something that their competitors don’t. They also love anything that enables them to, further their status as the best x in the space or the most efficient blah blah blah, whatever that might be.
So is there a way here that your webinar could, really play to their ego in that way in terms of the outcomes that it offers them? That might be a good way to think about it.
And these next two questions here for you too, how will it benefit their audience?
And finally, how, if at all, can you tailor it slightly? I’m not talking about reinventing the wheel here, but how can you make it feel bespoke? Right? Like a unique opportunity for, that business or brand.
Because if they’re a big player, they don’t want what everyone else is having. Right? They probably don’t want exactly the same thing that is on your website for your own audience.
So I’d love you to take five minutes just to jot some thoughts down there. Feel free to turn your camera off while you do that if you would like. I’ll turn mine off just so you’re not watching me looking at at at you.
But I will, come back in five minutes, and we can talk about what you’ve got down on paper, and, yeah, help you through any stumbling blocks. Okay.
Okay. That’s been five minutes.
When you’re ready, feel free to turn your camera back on.
Right. It’s fine. I just need another minute or so.
There we go.
Okay. How did everyone go? Anyone get stuck anywhere?
Anything come up for anyone as they were going through those prompts?
I I’m a little stuck.
Mhmm. Kinda. Still got some stuff down, but in terms of tailoring it to so it feels like a unique opportunity.
Okay.
I got like, I can tailor it to their audience. I can, you know, talk their language. So, like, let’s say I was doing it on Joe’s thing. I could use conversion copywriting, for example. I could use their framework. Right? Mhmm.
But that’s kinda where I got like, where I sort of stopped. I couldn’t figure out another tailoring opportunity.
Mhmm.
Can you give me some more context about who your workshop is for and and what it’s teaching, what it’s showing?
Sure. It’s for heads of growth, or marketing, and it is teaching people. It’s it’s one of the frameworks. Right? Listen. It’s like the drill with me kind of thing.
Mhmm. Yep.
And it’s teaching them how to think about their onboarding in a way that gets people to actually activate or gets more of their audience more of their sorry. More of their free users to activate into paid customers.
Amazing. Got it. Sorry.
It’s late. No.
No. It’s all good.
Okay. Perfect. So, yes, I think, you tailoring it to use their language is an excellent idea because that is a way of you not only entering into their world more specifically, but also indicating that you know their world well enough, right, that you give enough shits, that you’ve done enough research, that, you know, you’re really well qualified to lead this workshop for that group or for that business. So I think that’s an excellent idea.
I may know other examples or ideas are coming from the top of my head.
Are there any examples that you may share within the workshop? I don’t know if you’re down to that level of content yet. I know it’s taking through the diagnostic.
Is there anything in there that you do use sort of any real world examples for, or is it Yeah.
They’re not mine, but I borrowed them.
So the one is I’ll talk people through product adoption indicators, and those are that a product adoption indicator is the moment that you know that a user is activated. Right? And for Slack, it’s two thousand messages. If you haven’t sent two thousand messages, then you’re you’re not sticky yet. You’re not considered an activated, like, fully onboarded user.
Mhmm. That’s the one example. The other example is HubSpot. HubSpot reworked their entire onboarding flow and saw a fifteen percent lift in retention, which is kinda like a wait. Retention?
Not activation?
That’s weird, moment. But retention is actually the the whole big point to onboarding because it’s the thing that makes the graph go like that rather than like that.
Yes.
Awesome. Okay.
Well, I mean, I feel like there are examples that, you know, your people that you’re pitching would absolutely know.
Right? Who doesn’t know Slack? Who doesn’t know HubSpot?
So that’s awesome.
I think in that case, obviously, being able to tell tailor the language so that it sits within their ecosystem and their frame of reference, I think that would be perfect, because I think anything else beyond that is probably gonna take you forever and ever to do, which is not the point. Right? You wanna have this workshop mainly nailed down, and it’s about making any tiny little tweaks that you can just to make it hyper specific, hyper relevant, and to demonstrate that you know about their business, you know about their brand. So I think by bringing their frame of reference in, I think that’s actually pretty peachy.
Oh, thank you.
My pleasure. Toto, Isai, anything sticky or tricky or challenging come up for you two?
So I took a lot of notes from what Claire wrote because I did not have customized the audience, and I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. So thank you, Claire. So I definitely have that written down now. But, a couple of things that I have is, number one, the way the framework that I’m teaching, even people who are teaching ManyChat, nobody else is teaching.
Nobody else is talking about it this way. Right? Like, I’m essentially talking about a two way sync between your social and email. People usually have no idea whether the people on the email list are also following them on social or not.
It’s such a like, to me, it’s, like, mind boggling when you think about it. Like, why would you not want complete information about your people? Right? Nobody’s talking about so you you and your community will be the first people to wake up your audience to talk about like, essentially, wake wake them up to this problem, and they’re seen as somebody who’s bringing cutting edge trends to that, number one.
And number two, we will help you market us market it internally as well as example. Even if it’s a closed community, there’s value in talking about it, marketing it. So people will wanna join. Even if it’s not open now, people will take notice and then, like, hey.
That’s something I’ve never heard anywhere else. So when do you open next? I would like to I would like to be a part of that community. Right?
So we would help you market it as By that, I mean, create assets, promote it myself, and create assets so you can promote it as well. So it gives you brings you more visibility.
And we’ll project manage the whole thing. Because I have a team, I can do that.
And the third thing, and this is actually very unique to me, my business essentially runs on referrals, and I have a policy of giving a ten percent referral fee to anybody who sends, who makes a connection or send, like, sends me somebody.
And I usually give ten percent for the first six months. Any project they sign for the first six months, I give like, it’s like it’s like how cookies work.
And I say it’ll it’s gonna take me at least six months to build my own good bill until then I’m trading on yours. So you deserve to be compensated. So I but I am wondering, is this something good to offer to people that I’m willing to teach? Hey. If any of them do end up working with me, I’m happy to give maybe ten percent or five percent that. But is that is that gonna be a turn off for the kind of people that are gonna be pitching? Are they gonna think I’m gonna come in and sell hard?
I actually don’t think you need that. Your the answer to the first prompt that you shared is so compelling, like, to be the first people ever to be able to see how you’re conceptualizing this and the opportunities there. Like, yeah, sign me up for that. I I don’t think you need the the referral, to be in there Okay.
As part of the pitch. Okay. And I would also question too because I think what is hopefully or potentially gonna happen for you is that this workshop will actually become a tool a sales tool for you that doesn’t rely on that referral bonus system, which, I mean, I’ve all four referral bonuses, obviously, it’s worked well for you so far, but this will be a way where you can get in front of people and sell them on your brain and your skills and what you can do for them without actually having to rely on that referral bonus. And you’ll have the workshop itself as a method by which to build know, like, and trust with those people.
So, you know, you said that, you know, you’re borrowing, you know, the person who refers them. You’re borrowing their goodwill for for the first six months. This being able to be in a room with you, see you, hear you, understand what it is you can do for them, that really accelerates that know, like, and trust process. So I actually don’t think you need to include that referral bonus.
And, you know, if you if you if you find out that, actually, that would be really helpful, then you can always add it in, you know, for the next the next workshop that you deliver for the next business. But I strongly encourage you to not not include that for the first the first time because I think the fact that this is such a unique opportunity is amazing, and I think that’s such a compelling reason for someone to say yes to your pitch.
Okay. Yeah. Thank you. I’ll try that for a little bit. Amazing.
Hi, Marina, by the way. Hello.
Hello.
Todd, how did you go with the prompts?
So we’re just talking about the three answers. Correct? The three questions with three answers. Correct? Okay. Cool.
That’s right. Yes.
Yeah. So in terms of how we will benefit them, what I’m looking at is it’s a Philippine ICP workshop. So it’s gonna help put a face to the market and increase conversion rates from the industry standard of five percent.
It’s also gonna create a buyer for them versus selling a product or service.
It’ll benefit their audience because it’s gonna provide clarity in a cluttered landscape. I don’t know if anyone’s ever heard of the surplus economic theory. You’re either first, your second, or your last. So people are searching for your type of brand, and they’ll find you. Then they’re gonna find something that’s kinda close to what you do.
And if they don’t find that, they’ll choose what’s last, and then they’re really not never gonna be happy. So the idea is provide that clarity, be their first choice, and go from there. And then the third one is how would I tailor it? It would be with, one to one interviews and switching up their mindset about how they look at their clients. Most people have come into ICP processes.
They have really no idea of their client. They just think of product, product, product, service, service, service. And then it’s like, well, who is it for? And they’re like, shit.
I, and then you ask questions like, are they male, female? What’s your age? All these things. And some people just get really kind of annoyed because you’re forcing them to get out of the business itself.
So just the one to one when I’m done.
People are just like, wow. Like, you know, it we were talking about this person last night or after a process. I’ve had someone by the name sign up for their product or service. It’s really kinda weird. So that’s what I would do is put those three answers.
Amazing. And you’re I mean, you sound like you’re so clear and compelling and sharp with those responses. So I feel like you’re definitely on a track, Todd. It’s awesome to see.
Hope so.
I hope so. You get you get thrown wrenches in these programs all the time, but but sometimes when when Joe does things, you’re like, shit. Shit. So yeah.
Yes. I think we can all relate.
Amazing. And and then I guess my bigger question for, all of you is how did it feel to sort of switch that frame and to spend some time thinking about all the goodness that exists in your workshop for the people you’re pitching?
Did that have any impact on how you feel about the workshop and how you feel about pitching on how you feel sort of in your body when you’re working through those responses, and it may not have. There’s I’m not I’m not fishing for confirmation. I’m curious.
No. This reframe was really helpful because I was thinking, like, who am I to pitch these big podcasts and websites that I’ve been following?
But now I feel like like nobody else is talking about it. So clearly, it’s it’s of benefit to them to have me on and talk about these things, and it’s like, my podcast with at the the copywriters club was the third most downloaded that year. And I had I was so nervous when I was talking to Rob during the during the recording that I was, like, shaking and all that. But the episode obviously resonated with a lot of, with a lot of people, and it’s happened to be over and over again from other episodes that I’ve recorded.
So, clearly, it’s gonna be of benefit to them. And just thinking about it like that, I think it’s gonna it it does remove a little bit of the desperate energy. I think I was already bringing into the pitch because it’s not something you’re going to do for me now. It’s something that I’m going to do for you and your audience.
So I think that is going to translate so much better into the pitch.
Amazing.
So good to hear. I’m so excited for you. I’m so excited to see your your pictures and and your workshop live in the world.
Me too. Thank you.
And I also just wanted to make a note there too before I forget.
It’s interesting, isn’t it, how, as you mentioned, for the Copywriter Club podcast, you were so nervous, but, obviously, that didn’t translate to how you were perceived in the terms of the episode. So just a good thing to keep in mind too that you can feel so nervous in the moment when you’re doing something, and you can be so sure that it’s translating. But then if you do listen back or you get feedback from it, that’s not always obvious to the people listening. And I think that can be helpful too, something to keep in mind that no one can see what’s going on inside of you.
Yeah. So yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, just a good thing to think of when you are nervous.
Yeah. It’s so weird. That’s the only podcast where I didn’t say a single or a because I was too nervous too, so I was speaking very slowly. And I was like, how is this part where I look through the transcript? I didn’t say or a, like, even once. But I’m like, okay. So it paid off to be that nervous that I was speaking slowly and deliberately that it came off as confident and not, like, you know, shaking.
That’s amazing. You found you found a hack.
Any other thoughts on this stuff before we move on, Claire or Todd? And Marina, sorry. I just should have upped the energy. We’re just going through the, the first three, questions in the worksheet for this session, just in terms of helping shift the frame from, what your workshop can do for you in terms of being a really killer sales tool into what it can actually do for the people that you’re pitching it to.
Thank you.
I still feel kind of scared and salesy.
So Mhmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. I feel like to what to this stuff, I think my my my block or wall to climb is huge. Like yeah. It’s it’s gonna take time.
I do a lot of sailing, and I remember when I started, I was like, how do I improve? How do I get better? I’m learning all this stuff. And everyone said, you can learn as much as you want on books, but it’s time on the water.
Yes.
And it kinda feels like it’s just gonna be time on the water.
One hundred percent. That’s the perfect analogy. Because it is, you know, you can only psych yourself so much up, you know, and learn so much and do all the theory. But at the end of the day, you do need to take the leap and make it a real world thing. And every time it gets better, every time it gets easier, every time it gets more comfortable.
And I think what was last month or the month before that I mentioned that, you know, we often misinterpret discomfort as a sign that we’re doing something we shouldn’t be, but really it’s more often than not a sign that we’re pushing for more or different or better.
So I just encourage you not to see that discomfort as a sign that you’re doing the wrong thing and going in the wrong direction. It’s just that you’re literally growing your comfort zone, getting your sea legs on. That might not be the best addition to your metaphor, but, there you have it. And I also think something I thought of for you too.
Was it you who was saying that you had one of your mindset thoughts was who am I to teach this? Or maybe that was Esai.
No. But that guy totally resonates.
Like, who am I in this grand scheme of everything? Like, there are so many experts out there. I’ve just gone and, like, plucked this from my imagination and, like Mhmm. Study and gone. I have this brand new idea, and I think it works. Let’s see.
Mhmm.
It catches like I’ve been following other people’s frameworks for so long.
It feels bizarre to sort of just try be the master instead of the student. I’m awful. I’m all the geese tonight. Sorry.
I love it.
Yes. And very like, it’s such an exciting place to be, I think, when you’re finally generating your own ideas and concepts, right, and models. Right? You’re no longer just a carbon copy of someone else’s path, but you’ve been able to gather enough experience.
And who you are in a life that you’ve lived has enabled you to see things in a different light, and you’re now putting that out there, you know, as something that is uniquely yours. Obviously, very terrifying because if it’s all yours, then it’s all yours to fail. Right? You know?
I think we all feel that on some level.
So just normalizing that for you. And also wanted to say that I think often, particularly when we are pitching ourselves to, people or brands who are really big deal in our space, we often confuse the size of their success with the size of their knowledge about what we have to share. So we’re if you can imagine circles, like, we’re like, okay. They’re this big deal.
Like, this is their knowledge. They’re huge. And I’m like, I’m in here. I’m this little tiny circle in here.
Like, what do I have to offer? But the reality is that we both have big circles of knowledge, and the overlap is quite small. So so much of your circle is absolutely brand new to them even though they’re a huge established business.
I don’t know if that helps, and I don’t know if I’ve explained that very well.
Would be a good time. It’s a Venn diagram.
It’s a circle, and then it’s a circle inside the circle, and then another slightly overlapping circle.
Yes. The big circle is their success.
You know, it’s so interesting you said that, Christy. I Christy, I was actually doing my structural research on my ICP, and one of them is head of content. And doctoral, they give you it gives you keywords. Right?
What are the keywords they’re searching? Like, the top ten keywords are, like, basic SEO tips, like how to do SEO, like a simple beginner’s guide to SEO. It’s like the top ten search, and these are heads of head of content in, like, SaaS companies. And I was like, what?
Thank you.
Isn’t that amazing?
So hopeful.
Yes. That’s so reassuring, isn’t it? It’s like, cool. That’s where their head’s at. It’s like, I’m way above that for that yet.
That’s amazing.
Had anything come up for you, and no pressure.
If if not, feel free to just shake your head, and I won’t force you to to talk to me.
No. No one’s ever forced here. So, yeah. Yeah. I think everything that comes down to what we’re doing in pitch, mindset, everything for me is just the the acceleration nature.
I think these are things that you might, like, be a little dilettante shit and kinda dabble and try and figure it out, but this forces you. There’s like you know, Ryan Schwartz always talked about that, authentic scarcity. It’s not FOMO, but it’s, like, just forcing you to, like there’s an urgent timer behind you and, like, you just feel it and you’re kinda like, stop. Leave me alone.
And it’s just kinda there and it’s but it’s it’s effective. Right? You you’re you’re coming into programs and, and meetings where other people are doing it and you’re seeing it and, like, Claire’s talking about it and what she’s going through, but she’s doing it. She’s showing up.
She’s in the you know, you’re in the boat, Claire. You know what I mean? And it’s it’s tough, but that’s what it is for me. It’s the acceleration.
I I’ve been working ICPs for a while. We did as a a studio, we did ICPs, but it’s always on the website and, you know, it’s more inbound. And what we’re doing now is more outbound. And it’s just accelerating that that approach.
And you’re literally going, like, we sign up for webinars. Now we’re running webinars in a workshop. So it’s just, again, that mindset. Right?
And that’s to me, it’s just the acceleration nature. I love it myself. It makes for long days, but I love it. And when you when we all when you get it together, you can see it’s laid out.
So that’s what it is for me. It’s just taking what I’ve already had and just refining it more. Right? So and this group is kinda like iron sharpening iron for me.
It helps you with everything that we do.
So Amazing.
I love the way you conceptualize things, Todd. It’s very cool to hear because you’re right. There is a big acceleration happening, and I think particularly in CSP. Right? There’s a new theme every month that Joe’s dropping knowledge nuggets everywhere.
And Every month.
Every day, I go I go into coffee school like CSP. I’m like, oh, man.
Do you know what this is?
What you wanna do? And you’re like, oh, just getting it done and trying to document it and do it. And, like, everyone here is it’s funny. Again, everyone here is questioning it, but we’re, you know, it’s like, because we’re learning from a different way and it’s, like, just being patient with it as we accelerate.
Right? But again, yeah. I I mean, I it’s when you say conceptualize, it’s actually for me, the concept that was always there. What I’m learning is that, again, we’re just framing a concept that we already had.
And just making because if it makes sense to us, it will definitely make sense to anybody else because what we do is persuade people.
So That’s right.
So I did also have, just going back to the worksheet, I did also have a section in there to help you actually craft the pitch, but I think just given, that Joe’s workshop is two part. Hang on. Let me put this in present mode.
Sorry. I love that in music. Not sure why that was there.
So I think I will actually leave this, second half of the worksheet for you guys to dive into as you need because I suspect if the workshops themselves aren’t yet finalized, Jo has obviously more to step you through next week. We might be jumping the gun a little bit here.
But please come back and use this if you do need some help and some structure to guide you on getting that first pitch on paper, because often that first one can be the hardest. Right?
And please ping me in Slack as you go if you’re like, hey, Kirsty. I’m getting stuck on this. I need some help with this. Or can you review this for me? I would absolutely love to do that. And the one other thing I note, and I see your hand tied, I’ll, get to you in a sec before I forget.
I suspect after seeing Jo’s worksheet, it may be that, that she will be encouraging you to pitch, leading with pains rather than benefits.
But anyway, that will be TBC. So just highlighting that there may be a difference there.
This is the structure that I usually use for my pictures. My pictures are usually very successful, so this does work. It might just be a different, I guess, focus than what Joe may be may be teaching you. Alright.
Cool. If it’s okay, we have a couple of minutes just sitting where where we are. For anyone who has ever seen me in these these groups, I never really asked for critique. So it’s not something I normally share.
So if possible, if if it’s okay, when you’re saying crafting your pitch, I wrote one. Can I just check it out here and I’ll put it in Slack and then just say it out loud? And I wouldn’t mind some critique on it if possible. Anybody I want a game for that.
Cool. So here’s the in chat, there’s the actual relevance because you you said, like, why am I pitching?
Mhmm. Great. Yep.
And then the actual promise is this.
And the again, if for anyone just reading, the the pitch itself was the targeting is on point. Because we know if you’ve got a great brand, as soon as you start researching them, you’re gonna get retargeting no matter where you’re and what’s going on. And then, yeah, the the promise is what I’m I’m curious about as well.
And the promise is nineteen words, so it’s very on brand voice, Claire. We’ll talk about that after.
So the promise part is, the the way it’s phrased is confusing me a little bit, but maybe I’m just missing a piece of context.
So the promise is that you start with shared language, or is that Yes.
So it’s the it start with shared language. So that’s all all one sentence, but it just broken up with the call. So it start with shared language. K. And shared language is understanding your ICPs.
And when you understand the ICPs that it was one to one interviews, brand voice naturally comes out of that through osmosis. And then, really, what happens, you’re able to stay on brand throughout all channels by knowing your vocabulary, by not only knowing the client, but knowing your vocabulary, your cadence, and your tone.
Awesome. So I’m just curious. Do you think the people you are pitching would know what start with shared language means, that phrase?
No. That’s why the ICP will be bringing them into that. The actual story of the workshop would be ICP. And then as I promote, it will be based on you know, we’ll break down what a shared language is and all of those things, like, through promotion, through authority building.
Okay. Cool. Because I feel like the way you explained it the second time. I was like, ah, cool.
I understand why that’s valuable. So I think for the pitch itself, you know, you need to sort of meet them where they’re at and not use any of your terms too early on in the pitch. Yeah. Because it’s it’s less meaningful.
Right? If they’re like, I don’t know what this means. But if you can explain to them in terms that it’s a mate. Right?
Like, they’re your ICP, so you’re gonna be pulling the words from their head in terms of what they’re thinking about and what they would love to achieve.
I would suggest leading with that and using that language in the promise rather than the language of what you’re going to step them through during the workshop because they’re not there yet.
Hundred percent.
That make sense?
Hundred percent.
Any other thoughts?
If I might add something, I would reconsider putting the part where you say put a face to your ideal flying profile because that sort of gives away a little bit of your process. And I’ve found that sometimes people have resistance towards certain things, so they feel like either they assume they already know what you’re going to talk what you’re going to talk about, but they will decide whether it’s for them or not even before understanding what it is. So I would rather I would actually suggest removing your process from it entirely and only speak about the benefits like you like you did when you act when you’re actually talking about it, you didn’t talk about putting a face. You only talked about the benefits that they will get, which Claire so beautifully summarized. So I think that’s a lot more powerful.
Yep. Hundred percent. Thank you.
Awesome. Any other thoughts from anyone or any other questions from you, Todd? No? Amazing. Thanks for sharing that. Claire?
Yeah. I just wanna say, Todd, I find you so eloquent. Like, when you’re I honestly feel like you should just talk and, like, get it down on paper and then use that. Just talk and tell chat g p t to, like, neaten it up a bit because you’re so eloquent in speech, honestly.
Like, every time you talk, I’m like, oh my gosh. You sound so intelligent. Everything’s, like, all packaged together in these nice ideas. Why can’t I do that?
Can do that on writing.
Like, when I talk, I start going in tangents.
So yeah.
That’s actually what I just summarized was what you, like, said verbatim.
So that yeah.
Okay. My question.
I would love to see an example of one of your, successful or even unsuccessful pitches and what that actually looks like because I have no idea what I would even start typing.
Like Yeah.
Of course.
I’m so happy to share one of those with you. It will be a dive through my Google Drive, though. So is it okay if I pop plunk it in Slack later today? Is that alright?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. Whatever works. That would just be so helpful to, like, yeah, move move past the, like, I don’t know what to write kind of plot.
Yeah. Of course. No problems whatsoever.
And I know. Seeing real life thing is actually quite helpful. I might even have two.
I’ve kept any of these. I may even have some too. I have, like, the back and forth then from the person I was pitching, which might also be helpful to see because often it’s not just that you send the pitch and then it’s like booked in done. There can often be some back and forth in terms of them, you know, working things out and locking it in. So I can see if I have any of those two email chains that I’ve shared and sorry. Kept. And I can share those and just block out names and email addresses so that no one’s vulnerable.
Thank you so much. That’d be very helpful.
My pleasure. Esai.
So my first part of my question was gonna be that, you know, what does that conversation look like? Because, obviously, the first pitch is not gonna be the one that immediately converts. So how do we I have I have a process that I follow for myself and for my clients that sort of works. We do a multichannel approach, like email, social, sort of keep one channel.
We follow-up on follow-up via email, but just sort of chat and just have a friendly conversation via social. So it’s never awkward, even though it’s a door or whatever. The relationship is still alive. But I would love to know your process of what that conversation looks like, One, so thank you for sharing that.
But two, I was also wondering and I know you have a part with call to action here, but what that looks like because it might not be an immediate yes or an immediate let’s get on a call. Right? So would it be better to have a a different call to action at the first pitch, or what is it that you would recommend?
Yeah. So I think this is where context is really important. Right?
So even the platform of which you’re pitching, so you’re thinking about some podcast, right, for example, or if you’re thinking about, speaking inside of someone else’s paid program or mastermind, that’s gonna be different to pitching, say, ActiveCampaign to be, you know, to present a workshop customers. So Mhmm. I think thinking about the context of that, like, what is the call to action that actually makes sense? Like, how are you gonna be most likely to book this workshop in?
So and I think also the context too of, like, what is your relationship with the person you’re pitching? Because in some cases you may have like a connection with them. Maybe you met them at an event, you know, maybe you both have worked with the same person. There could be something there that you could leverage as well.
Or is it just a pure cold pitch, right, where you you just know that this is gonna be a really high value brand for you to actually get in tunnel.
So, thinking through all of those things, I think, can help you determine the call to action.
So for example, with if when I’m pitching podcasts, it’s never jump on a call because I think I’ve actually never had to jump on a call to land a podcast spot. Yeah. Yeah. I find that with podcasts, it’s all done via email.
Yeah. That’s been my experience. So Yeah. My call to action has been usually something along the lines of, you know, how do you think this would land for your audience?
Hit reply and let me know. So something as simple as that that just stimulates a conversation. And then if I don’t hear back from them within, say, three working days, I’ll then just follow-up and say, hey. Just wanted to to see how you you know, how this is sitting for you.
So, you know, a much softer CTA in that case because of the context of the fact that, you know, the podcast track isn’t gonna wanna jump on a call with me before they get me on the podcast. Like, the call was gonna be the interview.
Yeah. Yeah.
But that’s helpful. I just ran with you.
I can No. No. No. That’s helpful because I did. I I am thinking about pitching whole pitching podcast that don’t know me and I don’t have a preexisting relationship with.
So the softer CD, I think, is what I was thinking. Like, how does this idea did did you have the follow-up was thinking, did you have any suggestion? Would you suggest tweaks or what else came up along with Yes. Thing of, like, referencing some of the more recent podcasts.
I think that could be a good way to follow-up as well.
Yes. Definitely. Anything that’s current or relevant, I think, is always a good a good way to follow-up.
And I do think I think, actually, I shared one of my podcast pictures, in Slack a few months ago.
So I can see if it I’ll I’ll go back and tag you in it, Esai, because Yeah.
And maybe Claire as well if you’d like to see that one. I don’t know if podcasts are relevant for yep.
Cool. I’ll I’ll tag you both, and and if anyone else wants me to tag them, let me know.
But that was for Rick Mulready’s, Art of Online Business podcast, which at the time was a really, huge win for me.
So yeah. Was that a yes tag me please too from Todd or okay. Awesome.
Okay.
Easy.
Any final thoughts, questions, conundrums, cries for help?
No.
Well, as always, it’s been an absolute pleasure to spend this hour with you all.
Please ping me in Slack. I’ll go find that post with the podcast pitch now, and I’ll go through my Google Drive and find some more that I can share, Claire, and hopefully some email exchanges too, just so you can see sort of what the back and forth can look like and and how the the pitch can, I guess, not evolve, but how it can sort of have some flex in it to to really meet what the ideal you know, the person you’re pitching might want?
Any questions as you go along and do any of this stuff, if you need any pep talks or anything, please reach out in Slack. Just tag me, and I’ll see it.
I would love to really, like, help you as you go, so please don’t be shy.
Alright. I’ll see you in Slack.
Thank you so much. I’m definitely gonna ask for a pet dog. Great. Yes. Do. Please do.
Alright. Thanks, everyone.
Thank you.
Changing Audiences Without Second-Guessing Every Challenge
Changing Audiences Without Second-Guessing Every Challenge
Transcript
So let’s jump straight into things, so that we don’t waste any more time.
As you probably know, today’s training is essentially the mindset piece to everything that Jo and the other coaches are stepping you through this month, when it comes to your buyer handbook, and looking at potentially changing, shifting, going up market with your ICP.
So, I actually spend a lot of the training portion of today which will just be the first fifteen minutes talking about anxiety.
And by anxiety I don’t necessarily mean clinical anxiety, but feelings of discomfort, of uncertainty, of not knowing.
Because of course when you are in the process of shifting or changing anything about your business, including who you serve and who you work with, there is a level of discomfort when you go about making changes.
Especially, and I think this is really an important point and worth noting, especially when you already have a business that is on some level successful, successful. It’s working for you on some level and I think that that is obviously true of everybody in this room and everybody in this program. You know, you’ve got something to lose. So I just wanted to acknowledge that as a starting point, and just remind you that, you know, as humans, we’re very motivated by loss aversion.
So that’s how we get into that mentality of better the devil you know. So even though you can be in a situation where you can see quite clearly that shifting to a new audience type or serving a new type of prospect will have really amazing potential benefits and wins for your business and where you wanna take things, it’s also unknown. Right? You don’t really know what challenges you’re gonna face until you’re doing it.
So there is a tendency to lean in towards what’s known and what’s comfortable even if it’s not ideal. So let me just start there.
Alright.
Let me share my screen.
Here we go.
And I’m just gonna pull up the worksheet which you all, should have, access to. If you don’t let me know, and I can get Sarah to, follow it follow-up with you.
Sorry. I’m at the bottom preparing last night. So I’m gonna start by, talking about something called the anxiety avoidance cycle. If you’ve been in therapy at all, any sort of anxiety related thing, this will probably look familiar.
But the basic concept is that when we are faced with some sort of situation or scenario that makes us feel anxious, if we then find a way to avoid facing that scenario or going through with that activity, whatever that might be, we get a really immediate wink and that we get immediate short term relief. Right? We can relax and say, I don’t need to deal with that today. You know, that might be future Kirsty’s problem.
I can just, you know, close that tab in my brain. Hooray.
The problem with that is that it actually then leads to long term anxiety growth. So if you do avoid something that makes you uncomfortable, the next time you’re faced with a similar or the same sort of challenge or anxiety, it’s actually going to be a bigger hill for you to climb because you haven’t had the experience of riding that wave of anxiety and getting through to the other side.
So a couple of important things to note about this cycle before I go ahead and contextualise it in business terms.
So, importantly, the experience of being anxious and doing the thing anyway and riding that wave is actually really beneficial even if you don’t get the desired outcome.
So as a really basic life example, when I was a little kid I was terrified of getting dumped by waves at the beach. We lived right near the beach so I was obviously exposed to this anxiety whenever there was a big swell in town. But I remember very clearly, second grade, I got invited to the cool girl’s birthday party. Her name was Tamara Prestwich.
It was at the beach. All the other girls were going into the sea. It was quite a big swell. Peer pressure.
I didn’t want to be the only one staying on the sand doing my usual avoidance tactic. So I went in and I got dumped pretty much straight away. It sucked but it also wasn’t as bad as I’ve been imagining all those years. Right?
So I broke that anxiety curve. I did the thing. The good outcome, which would have been to actually not get dumped by a wave, didn’t happen. But what happened was I got dumped, and I was like, oh, actually not as bad as I thought it would be.
So that obviously is a good example of, how to break this curve and how then you don’t actually have that long term anxiety growth because you’ve had that experience even if the good or planned outcome hasn’t happened. Right?
The other really important thing to note about this cycle too is that the avoidance portion of the program rarely looks as simple as, I I’m just not gonna do that. I feel too scared to do that. Right? Our mindsets are far more nuanced than that and will often present us with things that may on first glance actually look like a good reason to postpone doing the thing.
So to bring this into the realm of business and the realm of updating or going upmarket with your ICP, let’s say, you know, you’re thinking about connecting with a big fish prospect on LinkedIn, but maybe you decide, oh, no. I’m not gonna connect today because I wanna spend some time growing my followers first.
Now this could be a good thing. If you know for absolute certain that the person you’re working out to would not even consider having a conversation with you if you didn’t have above x number of followers, then maybe that is a reason to actually go, you know, spend sixty days building content, building engagement, building those sorts of things. But if that is something that you are assuming and if it is a hoop that you are setting for yourself to jump through, that’s actually avoidance. Right?
That’s you saying, oh, no. No. Let me go. You know, plan sixty days of content, And that is that immediate short term relief because sitting at your laptop or your computer in your office planning out content is probably a really comfortable, safe thing for you to be doing.
So that’s an example of how this cycle can come into play into business and specifically, come into play when you’re looking at, changing something about the people that you serve.
This page here is just a reminder, if it really resonates with you, feel free to print it out and stick it on your desk like a post it. But too often we interpret anxiety, discomfort, or challenge as a sign that we’re deficient or doing something wrong. But more often than not, these things are simply a sign that we’re in the process of pushing for more, different, or better. Right?
It’s a sign that we are in, the process of growing or stretching our comfort zone, which means that we are going to feel uncomfortable for a while while we’re doing that. So just a reminder because I think as I’ve said here, too often, our first thought is, oh, you know, I feel a bit nervous about this. It probably means I’m not ready or I shouldn’t be doing it. If you wait until you’re a hundred percent ready for anything in your business, you’ll be waiting a very long time.
Right? There’s always that little gap that you have to jump over when you do something for the first time and it’s always going to be a little bit uncomfortable, which is such a cruel cruel irony, but there it is.
So bringing this back to the topic at hand, whenever you’re faced with an anxiety or a challenge in your business, and of course this is relevant for all sorts of things not just for audience and ICP stuff but let’s focus on that today. There are two possible paths. Right? You can decide, I’m going to avoid that.
You know, I’m not going to do that thing today. I’m going to wait. You know, your clever brain will likely come up with some very good looking excuse to postpone. And I think one of the challenges, and I imagine something that we may talk about in the discussion period of this, will be how to discern whether something is actually an avoidance tactic or whether it is actually a good strategy.
What’s gonna happen then immediately after is you’re gonna feel relief, but then ultimately, you’re gonna stagnate. Right? Because if you’re not pushing for more, if you’re not trying different things, you’re gonna be getting the same results that you’re currently getting.
On the flip side of the coin, in the second path here, and obviously the one that I wanna encourage you down, you can actually accept the challenge, which will lead in the short term to discomfort. Right? It’s gonna be a bit of a bumpy ride, but then in the longer term, it’s going to lead to growth because you’ve tried new things, you’ve got new skills, you’ve reached out to new people, etcetera, etcetera. So I think it’s really important here when we’re looking at these two paths to just acknowledge that, you know, in the short term, the path of avoidance is way more appealing. Right? Because we’re gonna be happily plugging away in our comfort zones. We’re gonna feel relief that we haven’t had to do any big scary things.
Whereas if we do rise to the challenge, you know, and accept it, you know, we’re gonna be feeling probably quite nervous, you know, probably quite anxious, all of those things. But again, if you look one step further down both of these paths, it’s obvious that the path on the is the one that is going to get you much closer to the goals that you have for your business.
So I know that I’ve put these little examples here on the page, but just to, I guess, contextualize them further. So let’s say that you are thinking about pitching, an upmarket client, right, an upmarket version of your current ICP.
You’re ready to go, but then you start thinking, oh, what if they find out that I’ve never worked with the business as big as theirs before?
Avoidance in that case may look like, okay. Well, you know what? I’m actually just gonna wait until I’ve done x training or I’ve got x certification first. And, again, if you know beyond a threat of doubt that the person that you want to pitch or the business you wanna work with would not even consider a contractor unless they had a certain certification, then yes, this is what you need to do.
You need to go ahead and get that thing first. But if this is you putting up your own hurdles and your own roadblocks and just thinking, no. I’m gonna wait, and I’m gonna go do this thing first. You know, that is avoidance.
Again, there’s always gonna be that little uncomfortable leap that you have to make at some point. So if you do do that, then the feeling of relief might be, okay. Cool. Well, instead of spending the next two hours putting this awesome pitch together, I’m gonna Google courses for x thing.
Right? That’s quite a safe activity that you can indulge in for the rest of the afternoon.
On the other side of the coin, if you have that same anxiety, you know, what if they find out I’ve never worked with someone this big before, but you decide well you know what if they do find that out yeah I’m going to be upfront and own it but I’m also going to own the expertise and the USP that I bring to the table. I’m really clear on how I’m uniquely qualified to help serve this business and help them hit their own goals and I’m going to paint a really clear picture of that for them. And you know, and sure they might be the first client of this size that I’ve worked with but there’s always going to be a first client of that size no matter what I do whether it’s them or someone else.
That’s probably going to feel quite uncomfortable obviously for all sorts of different reasons.
But then even if you do make the pitch, it doesn’t go through, you know it doesn’t get accepted, you don’t land the project, you’re still going to experience some sort of growth from that process because you would have gone through the motions of doing the thing.
You would have built some confidence in that sort of interaction. You might have learned some things about, hey, well, that actually didn’t land so well with that type of client. So next time, I’m gonna you know, change or adjust that.
You might even learn in that process that, hey. I actually did need to get this sort of certification. So, you know, I’m gonna go and do that, then I’m gonna come back to them. So again, the growth may not look like winning the project and hitting the ideal goal. It might look a bit different to that.
Which brings me to my final point, which is all about adopting a growth mindset. So a growth mindset is something I spoke about, I think it might have been in our second or third mindset workshop, so quite a few months ago now.
I don’t actually know if it is on the Copies School Professional website. I’ll check that for you. But, basically, a growth mindset is, all about being open to the fact that, you know, going to do things and you’re going to learn things by failing essentially.
So a failure is not the end of the road, a failure or a falling short or not doing things perfectly is actually an opportunity, for you to grow a skill set, to grow a knowledge base, to grow confidence in yourself, all sorts of things.
So these prompts here are for you guys to use, whenever you’d like.
Actually, Sket, if you would like five or ten minutes to go through these now so that you have something concrete that you might wanna talk about with, just pop a one in the chat box.
Whereas if you would like to just go through these on your own at a later date and spend the rest of the session diving straight into the the coaching portion of things, Pop a two in the chat box so that I can just work out which path is better. I’m sorry. I’ve stopped sharing my screen because I don’t know how to look at my chat while I share it. Okay. Andrew two, Abby two.
Right.
Claire two.
Katie two.
K. Looks like it’s a two, I think.
Claire’s. I don’t know that we’ve met before.
No. No. Sorry. I was in such a fluster when I came in a minute late that I didn’t even realize.
I was also a minute late.
Perfect. Okay. Simple. You didn’t miss anything.
Welcome to the cruise. I love you to meet, and I’m excited to get to know you more and more.
Thank you so much.
No. My pleasure. So two as it is. So we will not go into that process there, but, for future reference, those reflective prompts are there for you so that you can really clearly identify what the challenge is that you’re currently facing or what the anxiety is that you’re currently up against, what the worst case scenario actually is if you go ahead and do the thing anyway, but you mess up or you don’t hit the mark.
And I think that’s a really important one too because often we can get so in our own heads and we can start because sorry. I always mispronounce this word.
Oh my god. Six AM before coffee.
Kitadas oh my god.
Kitadas castrifies.
Thank you, Claire.
Yes. Thank you. You are my savior. Yes.
So we can get our own head, and we can make things snowball and allow them to become bigger than they actually are. So being able to write something down there that’s really concrete can actually help narrow us in and keep us focused, and make the boogeyman, I guess, feel less scary.
The next question there is if that does actually come to pass, then what would I have gained? Right? And this is about flipping you into that growth mindset so that if the worst case scenario does actually happen, you don’t just curl up in a ball on your couch with a big bag of chips and watch some crappy TV. Right? You’re actually able to say, well, actually, things that have come out of this are x and y. And the last prompt there is how does that feed back into your big picture goals. Because I think if you can always see how every action you’re taking is actually bringing you closer to the business that you want to have, you’re going to be able to stay more motivated even when things do not go as planned.
Alright.
So those are there for you, whenever you are ready or needing them.
And let’s, on that note, jump straight into the coaching portion of the call today, and we can talk about anything that I’ve just gone over or anything else that is happening or not happening in your businesses. So, feel free. Who has something they would like to ask or share?
Andrew. It was a steady hand.
I was ready. Can you hear me okay?
Yeah. Perfect.
Okay. Cool.
Yeah. This is very timely for me.
I’m definitely dealing with a lot of indecision around next steps because as you said, like, I have kind of, you know, like, the current state of my business is is going, and and that’s all well and good. And so it doesn’t feel like I can just sort of, like, oh, you know, just try like, just trying something else without making it a full committed effort. It doesn’t seem like a good use of my time. And so the way that this the way that this kind of avoidance cycle manifests for me is that there’s just a lot of, paralysis and indecision. And so, you know, just to to give you an example of of what how that’s showing up in my life right now is, like, right now, I should be working on lead gen.
Just, like, very clear that that’s something that I should be working on right now.
But then my mind goes, okay. Well, in order to do that, I need to, like, figure out exactly what it is that I wanna offer people. And in order to know exactly what it is that I wanna offer people, have to figure out exactly what my business strategy is. And if I wanted to figure out what my business strategy is, then I need to figure out, like, exactly what I want my life to look like.
And then that’s where I kind of get stuck. And something as you were talking that I kind of realized is that I think I’m equally afraid. I’m I’m it’s not just the failure side that freaks me out. It’s also the success side.
Because if I succeed, then there’s also gonna be, like, more responsibility, more risk, more, you know, clients to keep track of? Is that what I want in, you know, in my life? And and so it it feels it’s kinda the term perfectionism doesn’t never really resonated with me, but I do think I deal with it. It’s I think the word perfect is not right, but it’s like there’s some sort of standard in my mind or ideal in my mind that I feel like things need to I need to have like, I I I need to feel a certain level of confidence in my business model and business strategy and my offer before I could do any of that stuff.
And Mhmm. I’ve just been spending a lot of time the past few months of just constantly thinking about, well, I could do things like this or I could do it like that, but I don’t know if I wanna do it that way. I don’t know if I wanna and so, you know, I I I move on some stuff, but then I I don’t move forward with anything meaningful because like, reaching out to people, doing actual lead gen. Sorry about the extra noise.
And so, yeah, I I find myself with just a lot of not moving forward because I have not made a decision.
Mhmm.
Yes. It sounds like you are drowning under the weight of a multitude of decisions. When you were talking about the path that your brain jacks you down, I was like, wow. You’re trying to define Yeah.
And I’m whole life. And I’m high high anxiety, like, long ago, diagnosed medicated therapy, whole deal. So, like, yeah, this is all driven by anxiety for me for sure.
Yep. Oh, you have such good insight into what’s going on for you, which is a really awesome place to start.
I so I I definitely understand that your business and where you wanna take it from what I’ve seen in the Slack group and in some of the other recordings. Like, you know, it is a big movement. Obviously, it does involve growing a team and all those sorts of things, more so than you currently have, although you’re on the past already doing that. So I definitely understand and appreciate that it feels like you can’t just test this thing. Right? You know you’ve sort of got to jump into the deep end in some way.
And at the same time, I wonder if it is possible to jump into the deep end in one way with, like, a test project in that area. So like as an example, I did that with an upmarket version of my client years ago, because I wasn’t sure, like the same reasons as you, I think, about how much I would actually enjoy that process and what it would mean to the responsibility and all those things about my life. I actually didn’t love it. Love working with that kind of client, and it did take a significant portion and chunk of time out of my business to actually do that test project with it.
But I was able to move on that I think because I just brought in the resources I needed for that project on a contract base, if that makes sense. Would something like that be a possibility for you just to get me moving and just to get you testing with real world data?
Yeah. Definitely. I mean, I I and and in a way, a current client that I have right now kind of is that test project, because they are kind of I’m not necessarily changing my ICP as much as I’m changing the way that I structure my end of things going from, like, freelance conversion copywriter to, like, landing page optimization agency or, or CRO agency.
And I think another part of this that I didn’t quite mention on the on the first part is that there’s also like, around the perfectionism thing is that there’s this constant, like like, in terms of trying to figure out my process, what I’m what kind of research am I gonna do versus what am I not gonna do? There’s constantly this battle of, like, oh, you know, like, that’s not really gonna be enough. I need to also add this thing and this thing in order to have enough research. Oh, but then if I add that, then, like, then I’m overcomplicating it.
So, yeah, it’s it’s also indecision about exactly what that process is gonna look like. And and this need to kind of always be looking over my not focusing on what I have in front of me and and committing to the decision, but also, like, always like, oh, is there some other better way? Is someone else doing this better? You know, what do I need to add to this?
What do I need to change?
So it’s a lot of that. A lot of the this endless tweaking or endless, endlessly considering all the possibilities instead of just making a decision, knowing that it’s not gonna be perfect, and committing to it.
Mhmm.
Yep. And does the idea of the the latter, like, I’ll make the decision and knowing it’s not gonna be perfect and knowing you’re gonna find out, you know, answers to those questions as you go, does that just make you incredibly uncomfortable?
I guess. Because I just keep I just kinda keep doing it, and I keep so when it’s time alright. Here’s this way that Joe showed us that we can, like, reach out to people, and it’s, like, straightforward. She’s done all the work for us.
There’s always my mind is always going, oh, no. Wait. But there’s this other thing I haven’t figured out yet. No.
I haven’t figured out the perfect process. I haven’t so I guess so. I guess that there’s I’m I’m not sure what it is that I’m afraid of is gonna happen.
Mhmm.
I don’t think that there’s a negative consequence. I think that there’s just this internal need to to feel like I have something so good that I can’t wait to share it with the world instead of right now where it’s like, oh, I have this thing, but I’m gonna hide it because I’m not sure about it yet.
Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha.
It’s interesting, and I wonder if this perspective shift may help you.
I do genuinely think that the people that we work with actually have such an important role in us shaping our offers and our services so that they are something that is so exciting and so compelling and so compelling and so wonderful. And I think to deny them that opportunity to help us shape something into being is actually a bit selfish because there’s no way that I could create something in isolation in my mind even with all of my experience and all of my knowledge that would be as good as it could be without testing it on real humans, with real businesses, and being able to identify the gaps. So I wonder if here the reframe might be partly that, but also you’re really bloody good at being able to identify things that, you know, could help a process or things that are, you know, surplus as you’re doing the thing. So I wonder how much can you trust yourself to do that on the run versus doing that in isolation before you unleash a thing into the world. Does that make sense?
Yeah. I think so. It sounds like you’re kind of saying to on one, treat it kind of as an experiment, and two, to invite the clients kind of into the process of, of optimizing it into something better.
Yeah. That’s right. And that invitation doesn’t need to be formal. Right? It’s just that, you know, they’re like a a lab rat in in some ways. Right? And, you know, you won’t know how things are gonna play out until you actually have the chance to play them out in real time in the real world.
Yeah. Because I think you you’re definitely like, you’re right.
You’re stuck in that cycle, and I think you’re actually stuck in that cycle.
Yeah.
Yeah. You’re almost like washing machine. It feels like you’re kind of spinning spinning. And I and I feel like you’re at the point now where that anxiety curve has gotten bigger.
It’s like the, you know, the crest to get over to actually do the thing now almost feels insurmountable because your head’s so busy with all of these things. And the reality is, you know, there’s so many questions that you have that you will not be able to answer until you actually do the thing. So Yeah. You’ve just gotta you’ve just gotta get uncomfortable.
Yeah.
No Yeah.
No. That that definitely helps. I think and also the first part about starting smaller in terms of how I think about this, like, not thinking the whole business and the whole future, but thinking about just the next client. What does this business look like for the next client and and nothing else? That that’s helpful because that makes it less overwhelming and less it feels less permanent.
Awesome. What’s the next client?
What is this gonna look like for the next client? Yeah.
Yes. And what could that look like for you then? Because I’d love for you to have in your mind, okay, if you’re just thinking about it in that, like, just that piece, what’s this gonna look like for the next client? Like, just what what is that gonna look like for you in your process? Like, what’s gonna happen for you next? What things you actually gonna action and do?
Yeah. I think that what I need to do is I think I need to focus on, a lead gen activity and letting myself figure out the rest after I have someone on the hook because that’s that’s what worked in the very beginning of my business where where, you know, oh, yeah. Hey. I can help with your email, you know, project.
And then they’re like, okay. Great. And they sign on, and then I’m like, alright. Let me go open ten x emails for the first time.
Let’s do this. So yeah. So, I think that that that could work for me if I just shrink the whole thing down and just think of it as what is who who’s the next client and then figure out what’s what does it look like from there.
I love that. And I love that young if she’s still young, but younger Andrew energy of just like, oh, cool. I’ll book an email project, and then I’ll learn how to do it. I think that’s awesome.
No. He was he was young.
He was in his twenties.
He was young. He was a wise man. And carefree. Yeah. That’s that’s the The last the last thing I just wanna say to you, sorry, and then I’ll stop.
Please, please. Yeah. That’s remember that just because you do something one way once, you’re not locked into doing that again and again forever and ever. Like, you may try this thing and realize that for some reason, something about it or everything about it doesn’t work.
That’s okay. That’s great data to have because now you can build with that in mind. So, you know, I think as well as being overwhelmed by, like, all the things because the decision is feeling so big. Sorry.
I’ll just mute Katie. I think that’s oh, no. She’s on it. Thank you, Katie.
As well as being overwhelmed by that, I do wonder if you’re also like, that’s kinda where that perfectionism is coming in. Like, this idea that, like, you need to get it right first time and, like, you’re gonna be locked into doing it a certain way. Whereas it’s all just a data gathering process. Right? And you can only optimize what you already know.
So I don’t know if that helps, but take that with you if it does.
Yeah. No. It it it does. Thank you. I appreciate it, Christie. Thanks.
My pleasure. Alright. I think, Katie, did you have your hand up earlier, or did I imagine that?
I did, but I have to leave for my daycare run now. So I’m not gonna relinquish my spot. But I just wanted to say, like, everything Andrew asked was very similar to what I was gonna ask. I really struggle with that all or nothing thinking as well as, like, secret like, I always wanna get things in the right order. So it’s like, okay. Well, this would be the next step, but if I do it now, like, I can’t do that until I get all these other things in place. So, Chrissy, your resource that of win slash acceptance really made me feel personally attacked by the in a really helpful way.
And I think what you were just saying to Andrew about, like, thinking of it as doing a service to your clients to act before you’re ready is also really helpful. And if you have anything else to say around fear of success, I’m here for it because I definitely think that that holds fear of success of, like, getting into the room, but then messing it up and being exposed as a fraud is, like, a way bigger fear for me than failing, like, just not having the thing.
Yes. And thank you for bringing it up. Cassandra, sorry. I forgot to touch on your fear of success as well.
It’s, yeah, it’s a big one, isn’t it? Because I feel like the bigger you get and bigger being in a matter you’re working with for your clients, you’re earning more money, you’re more visible, right, you’re more out there, the more vulnerable you feel, right, because you’re more exposed, obviously. So if people disagree with what you’re doing, if someone, you know, God forbid, has had a bad experience with you, like, that can be out there and that is really confronting. But I think one of the threads that runs not just through this fear of success but also, sort of like the all or nothing mentality and having to have all the steps in exactly the right order is that I feel like both of you might be forgetting that you are very intelligent, adaptable, responsive human beings.
Right? You it’s not like you’re gonna have to make all these decisions in isolation and then you’re just gonna play them out no matter what happens. Right? You’ve got your businesses to the point that they’re both currently at by reading the room, by responding to things, by taking really strategic sound actions most of the time.
So I think it’s really important to keep those things in mind. And I always wonder if there might be space for a workshop on self trust, at some point because I feel like ultimately, you know, there’s so much that we can’t control about the world, you know, our clients and projects and all those things. But if we’re able to trust ourselves to make decisions in the moment when those challenges arise, then so much of that becomes so much easier.
I don’t know if any of that resonated with anyone.
That it’s funny because when Andrew was talking, I was thinking it was I just self trust was on my mind for both of us.
Mhmm. Yes.
Awesome.
Okay. And it’s sorry. What Andrew has written here. Trying to figure out the right order is eating a ton of time and mental bandwidth for me. Yep. Yep. So this ordering of things, and I think, again, that’s probably linked to perfectionism, the idea that we must have all our ducks in a row, and they must be perfectly in the right row in the right place at the right time, for us to even take the first step and to get off the ground.
You know, it’s a mindset block one hundred percent because it’s not how learning works. Right? Think about the most basic skills. Like, think about talking.
Like, you don’t all of a sudden one day just open your mouth. Start having full sentences with, like, multisyllabic words. Right? It’s it’s such a process, and you trip and you stumble, but you learn from all of those things.
So I think with that metaphor too, like, the other good thing to note is that you start talking because you’re ready to start. You’re motivated. You wanna do the thing. So maybe that applies here too for reaching and stretching and growing your businesses in all these exciting ways.
That may have just been a very random metaphor, but it’s what came to mind.
Yeah. Awesome. Is there anything else I can quickly talk to you about, Katie, before you go do the, day care drop off? Or, otherwise, we could always continue this in Slack as well.
I’m good. I’m gonna keep listening, but I won’t be able to wave anymore. But thank you, Kirsten. That was helpful.
All good. And, Claire, I think your hand was up next. Hello. Hi.
So, obviously, mostly, my question’s, like, so so much in the same zone, but it’s probably a little bit more linked to the, maybe not fear of success, but, like, the whole imposter syndrome side of things.
Mhmm.
So whenever I try to post something or write something, if I’m, like, writing just for an internal thing, working out a process, I can sit down and write. No problem. The moment I’m like, okay. Let’s come up with a LinkedIn post, my brain starts going, you know nothing.
Everyone else already knows this. It’s very obvious. It’s out there. You learned this by listening to someone else.
Why wouldn’t they listen to someone else? Why listen to you?
And I get myself into this, like, whirlwind. Even when I answer, like, things on calls, I’m like, they’re gonna know. They’re gonna know mid talk, and then I start stumbling.
If it doesn’t happen, I know I could be really great. But if, like, that anxiety kicks up, it just makes me ramble.
Yeah.
So I don’t know how to deal with that.
Do you have any tips?
Yeah. Sure. And, also, I don’t know if you noticed, but Andrew was definitely nodding there. So I just wanted to highlight that I feel like everything everyone shared so far is an experience that most people in the room have also had. So just know, one, it’s very normal.
Two, you’re in good company. And three, it’s not a sign that you’re not doing the right work and doing the right thing. Right? We all have those moments where we worry that what we have to share or what to say is not good enough, not new enough, not interesting enough, not valuable enough.
But I think we also all have those moments where we manage to wow a a client just by saying something that we think is quite middle of the road. And they’re like, I never knew this. And they’re like, look at me with my expertise.
So, I mean, obviously, that’s, something that can really help with that, but that’s not something that’s in your control. Right? So let’s not focus on that. We can’t control other people’s reactions. We can only control our actions and to some extent our feelings about those.
So I’m just wondering when you feel this imposter syndrome hit, is it always when you are sharing your own knowledge or your own skill set? Is it is it confined to that, or is it more broad?
Yeah. I think so.
Because it’s in my mind, it’s not my own knowledge. It’s, like, knowledge learned. Do you know what I mean? Like, I’ve acquired this knowledge from lots of other experts, lots of other people. It’s technically theirs. I’ve just learned it.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Sure. Which is the case, I think, for all of us in this room. Right? We haven’t all just spoken up one day and discovered the craft of copywriting on our own.
I think it’s important to remember that, yes, you know, everyone learns their expertise and their craft from somewhere. Right? It’s how education systems work. For example, you get a degree to be a doctor, like, you know, that’s a maybe an example that’s quite helpful to think about.
I think what’s important to remember is that you are going to always bring your own USP and your own uniqueness to the table. Right? There’s gonna be something about the way that you share that information that’s gonna resonate with the right people. There’s gonna be something about, you know, your experience of utilizing that information or using that skill that’s gonna be really appealing to the right people.
So I think it’s again of thinking about your niche, right, and who it is you’re actually speaking to, and how what you have to share is actually hyper relevant for them. Because I think if any of us broaden out, you know, the kind of content that we would share to a white audience, it’s going to be compelling for a whole group of people, right? We have to go narrow, think narrow, and think about how to actually, you know, resonate with that person. I think another thing that can help too in those moments of imposter syndrome, especially when you’re in the middle of a a call or a conversation with a prospect or a client, is just to remember that what you’re having is actually a conversation. Right? It’s a back and forth. So it’s not a show and tell necessarily.
You know, if you can just bring it back down to that human level, that can often relieve some of that anxiety of you feeling like you’re on show, of you feeling like you’re up on a stage of some sort. Because if you just think, hey, I’m just having a chat with Claire. Like, we’re just talking about this. They’ve asked a great question.
I know the answer. Here it is. That flow can actually help bring those levels of anxiety down so that you feel less watched and just more present in the moment. Because I think something that you also, shared when you were talking about that is that it’s almost like there’s this version of Claire that hovers above you and, like, watches and is aware of what you’re doing and is possibly judging or worrying for you.
Is that is that sort of the case?
Yeah. It’s like, oh, look. Now you’re rambling. Of course you are.
Yes. Yeah. Okay. So I think it would be very helpful if if we could find ways to stop that sort of dissociation happening and and having so much of your brain up there watching, judging what you’re doing because of course that’s taking you out of the present moment.
And of course would be impacting your ability to actually you know, show up confidently. You know, it would be imagine if there was an actual person behind you saying those things. Like, that would be so distracting. So it’s the same kind of concept.
So I think it might actually be good to work with anything that brings you into the present moment. So really focusing, on the person you’re speaking to, maybe even grounding yourself with some really subtle exercises. So, do you normally meet in person or on Zoom with your clients or prospects? On Zoom.
Awesome. So a really good grounding exercise because, obviously, on Zoom, no one can see your feet unless you have a very strange camera setup that I’ve not seen before.
Even just scrunching your toes into whatever floor you have underneath your desk and just noticing the sensation, noticing what it feels like, that’s a really good way just to bring you back into your body, so that you have less of those sort of out of body floating above or behind the shoulder kind of, moments. So even something as simple as that, I would love for you to try that and then report back in Slack and just let me know if something that simple can actually help bring you back into the present, into the conversation, and out of that nasty imposter syndrome.
Oh, well, that’s super helpful. Thank you.
My pleasure. Todd, I think I might have seen your hand before unless I also imagine that.
Well, first off, this is great. Great workshop.
I’ll be honest. The last couple of days for me, I’ve had, anxiety, and it’s actually coming to a group and talking about it about it. For me, it’s like, Andrew and I actually have a call scheduled for tomorrow. And for me, it’s the CRO side of it.
Like, am I making the right decision if I’m gonna go with the CRO side of it? I talked a little bit to Tina about it. I’ll be quite honest. I don’t have an issue with process.
I’ve got a nail down, dialed in process. I know that when it runs, it runs extremely well.
I’m closing out a project right now, and the process is so dialed. I’m like, I don’t even wanna go and do it because it’s gonna be easy. And it’s one of those things. I don’t have that, but I have the anxiety side of it, and it’s great to have the conversation about, like, okay. Is this gonna be the right thing?
Mhmm.
And, you know, I’ve got other client work in the background. But you made me think of something that’s kind of important, and I will impart this if I can.
Had a client in the past, and they are Canadian special forces. So they’ve shared conversations where they’ve if not to get too deep into it, where they’ve actually had their superiors over somebody they just killed in a war, or they’ve been on a spot in the world where their only contact the rest of the world is when a satellite passes over their head. And it goes back to the stoics. And one of the things that when you’re talking about self trust and everything, you just made me think of something, and I’m like, excuse my language, but I’m like, shit.
I forgot all about that. And it’s called the only thing you can control is your controllables. That’s it. That’s the only thing you can control is what you can control.
And for me, what I’m thinking a little bit more of is doing anything I can control in the day, you know, not tomorrow or what happened yesterday, but today, is just showing up and showing up and doing what you can in that day. And it might not be the win you want or the huge success you want, but just showing up in that day and just doing what you can in that day, that’s a controllable that you can control. That I don’t know. For me, I think those stack up, And I think the more they stack up, the less the other days can kinda stack, and you actually are standing over it more than it standing over you.
So that was just my comment. It just made me remember, like, control your controllables. And that’s that’s a tough thing to do for me, especially in the last couple of days. Because it’s like, oh, okay.
Where is this going? What am I gonna do? What is this going to look like? You know?
And and all these things. So that’s all. Just wanted to impart that. That’s just it’s a very important thing to do.
It’s just control your controllables. That’s it. It’s all you can do. Right?
So Hundred percent.
Thanks so much for sharing that, Todd. That’s so timely. And, yes, And like you say, just showing up every day and doing the thing, I think, can also help when things feel overwhelming. Right?
It’s like we’re not trying to plan and execute every single thing for the business that you wanna have two years from now. It’s about what little things can actually do today that day after day can add up. So I think if, yeah, looking if looking and thinking too broad is something that causes anxiety, then bringing it back into that. And, again, yeah, what you can control, so helpful.
So thanks for sharing. That’s awesome.
Anyone else have any questions, concerns?
Hello?
All good? Okay.
So I’m never sure how long to wait in case someone’s just been shy, but I feel like we might be all questioned out for this morning.
We’re all just anxious.
I know. You’re like, oh god. This workshop was, like, my avoidant part of my day. Now I have to actually go and do some work.
What is this? Well but thank you so much for showing up this morning. Thank you so much for sharing so openly and honestly. I think the more honest that we can all be about these feelings and doubts that we have, you know, the more we just feel like, oh, we’re in the right room and we’re doing the right things.
Right? Everyone here is in the right place doing the right things. And because you have those doubts, you know, it it doesn’t mean anything about your qualifications, or where you’re headed with your business whatsoever. It’s all part of being human, unfortunately.
So please feel free to reach out and continue any of these conversations in Slack. I would love that, or have a chat with Zoe about Zoe with Joe, sorry, about, doing a workshop on self doubt, and see where that might be able to fit in because it sounds like that might be a helpful one. Sorry. Self trust. Sorry. Sorry. My baby was awake every hour last night, so she’s functioning on bare minimum.
But, yes, I will see you all in Slack, and I’ll see you again on Zoom next month.
Bye, everyone.
Transcript
So let’s jump straight into things, so that we don’t waste any more time.
As you probably know, today’s training is essentially the mindset piece to everything that Jo and the other coaches are stepping you through this month, when it comes to your buyer handbook, and looking at potentially changing, shifting, going up market with your ICP.
So, I actually spend a lot of the training portion of today which will just be the first fifteen minutes talking about anxiety.
And by anxiety I don’t necessarily mean clinical anxiety, but feelings of discomfort, of uncertainty, of not knowing.
Because of course when you are in the process of shifting or changing anything about your business, including who you serve and who you work with, there is a level of discomfort when you go about making changes.
Especially, and I think this is really an important point and worth noting, especially when you already have a business that is on some level successful, successful. It’s working for you on some level and I think that that is obviously true of everybody in this room and everybody in this program. You know, you’ve got something to lose. So I just wanted to acknowledge that as a starting point, and just remind you that, you know, as humans, we’re very motivated by loss aversion.
So that’s how we get into that mentality of better the devil you know. So even though you can be in a situation where you can see quite clearly that shifting to a new audience type or serving a new type of prospect will have really amazing potential benefits and wins for your business and where you wanna take things, it’s also unknown. Right? You don’t really know what challenges you’re gonna face until you’re doing it.
So there is a tendency to lean in towards what’s known and what’s comfortable even if it’s not ideal. So let me just start there.
Alright.
Let me share my screen.
Here we go.
And I’m just gonna pull up the worksheet which you all, should have, access to. If you don’t let me know, and I can get Sarah to, follow it follow-up with you.
Sorry. I’m at the bottom preparing last night. So I’m gonna start by, talking about something called the anxiety avoidance cycle. If you’ve been in therapy at all, any sort of anxiety related thing, this will probably look familiar.
But the basic concept is that when we are faced with some sort of situation or scenario that makes us feel anxious, if we then find a way to avoid facing that scenario or going through with that activity, whatever that might be, we get a really immediate wink and that we get immediate short term relief. Right? We can relax and say, I don’t need to deal with that today. You know, that might be future Kirsty’s problem.
I can just, you know, close that tab in my brain. Hooray.
The problem with that is that it actually then leads to long term anxiety growth. So if you do avoid something that makes you uncomfortable, the next time you’re faced with a similar or the same sort of challenge or anxiety, it’s actually going to be a bigger hill for you to climb because you haven’t had the experience of riding that wave of anxiety and getting through to the other side.
So a couple of important things to note about this cycle before I go ahead and contextualise it in business terms.
So, importantly, the experience of being anxious and doing the thing anyway and riding that wave is actually really beneficial even if you don’t get the desired outcome.
So as a really basic life example, when I was a little kid I was terrified of getting dumped by waves at the beach. We lived right near the beach so I was obviously exposed to this anxiety whenever there was a big swell in town. But I remember very clearly, second grade, I got invited to the cool girl’s birthday party. Her name was Tamara Prestwich.
It was at the beach. All the other girls were going into the sea. It was quite a big swell. Peer pressure.
I didn’t want to be the only one staying on the sand doing my usual avoidance tactic. So I went in and I got dumped pretty much straight away. It sucked but it also wasn’t as bad as I’ve been imagining all those years. Right?
So I broke that anxiety curve. I did the thing. The good outcome, which would have been to actually not get dumped by a wave, didn’t happen. But what happened was I got dumped, and I was like, oh, actually not as bad as I thought it would be.
So that obviously is a good example of, how to break this curve and how then you don’t actually have that long term anxiety growth because you’ve had that experience even if the good or planned outcome hasn’t happened. Right?
The other really important thing to note about this cycle too is that the avoidance portion of the program rarely looks as simple as, I I’m just not gonna do that. I feel too scared to do that. Right? Our mindsets are far more nuanced than that and will often present us with things that may on first glance actually look like a good reason to postpone doing the thing.
So to bring this into the realm of business and the realm of updating or going upmarket with your ICP, let’s say, you know, you’re thinking about connecting with a big fish prospect on LinkedIn, but maybe you decide, oh, no. I’m not gonna connect today because I wanna spend some time growing my followers first.
Now this could be a good thing. If you know for absolute certain that the person you’re working out to would not even consider having a conversation with you if you didn’t have above x number of followers, then maybe that is a reason to actually go, you know, spend sixty days building content, building engagement, building those sorts of things. But if that is something that you are assuming and if it is a hoop that you are setting for yourself to jump through, that’s actually avoidance. Right?
That’s you saying, oh, no. No. Let me go. You know, plan sixty days of content, And that is that immediate short term relief because sitting at your laptop or your computer in your office planning out content is probably a really comfortable, safe thing for you to be doing.
So that’s an example of how this cycle can come into play into business and specifically, come into play when you’re looking at, changing something about the people that you serve.
This page here is just a reminder, if it really resonates with you, feel free to print it out and stick it on your desk like a post it. But too often we interpret anxiety, discomfort, or challenge as a sign that we’re deficient or doing something wrong. But more often than not, these things are simply a sign that we’re in the process of pushing for more, different, or better. Right?
It’s a sign that we are in, the process of growing or stretching our comfort zone, which means that we are going to feel uncomfortable for a while while we’re doing that. So just a reminder because I think as I’ve said here, too often, our first thought is, oh, you know, I feel a bit nervous about this. It probably means I’m not ready or I shouldn’t be doing it. If you wait until you’re a hundred percent ready for anything in your business, you’ll be waiting a very long time.
Right? There’s always that little gap that you have to jump over when you do something for the first time and it’s always going to be a little bit uncomfortable, which is such a cruel cruel irony, but there it is.
So bringing this back to the topic at hand, whenever you’re faced with an anxiety or a challenge in your business, and of course this is relevant for all sorts of things not just for audience and ICP stuff but let’s focus on that today. There are two possible paths. Right? You can decide, I’m going to avoid that.
You know, I’m not going to do that thing today. I’m going to wait. You know, your clever brain will likely come up with some very good looking excuse to postpone. And I think one of the challenges, and I imagine something that we may talk about in the discussion period of this, will be how to discern whether something is actually an avoidance tactic or whether it is actually a good strategy.
What’s gonna happen then immediately after is you’re gonna feel relief, but then ultimately, you’re gonna stagnate. Right? Because if you’re not pushing for more, if you’re not trying different things, you’re gonna be getting the same results that you’re currently getting.
On the flip side of the coin, in the second path here, and obviously the one that I wanna encourage you down, you can actually accept the challenge, which will lead in the short term to discomfort. Right? It’s gonna be a bit of a bumpy ride, but then in the longer term, it’s going to lead to growth because you’ve tried new things, you’ve got new skills, you’ve reached out to new people, etcetera, etcetera. So I think it’s really important here when we’re looking at these two paths to just acknowledge that, you know, in the short term, the path of avoidance is way more appealing. Right? Because we’re gonna be happily plugging away in our comfort zones. We’re gonna feel relief that we haven’t had to do any big scary things.
Whereas if we do rise to the challenge, you know, and accept it, you know, we’re gonna be feeling probably quite nervous, you know, probably quite anxious, all of those things. But again, if you look one step further down both of these paths, it’s obvious that the path on the is the one that is going to get you much closer to the goals that you have for your business.
So I know that I’ve put these little examples here on the page, but just to, I guess, contextualize them further. So let’s say that you are thinking about pitching, an upmarket client, right, an upmarket version of your current ICP.
You’re ready to go, but then you start thinking, oh, what if they find out that I’ve never worked with the business as big as theirs before?
Avoidance in that case may look like, okay. Well, you know what? I’m actually just gonna wait until I’ve done x training or I’ve got x certification first. And, again, if you know beyond a threat of doubt that the person that you want to pitch or the business you wanna work with would not even consider a contractor unless they had a certain certification, then yes, this is what you need to do.
You need to go ahead and get that thing first. But if this is you putting up your own hurdles and your own roadblocks and just thinking, no. I’m gonna wait, and I’m gonna go do this thing first. You know, that is avoidance.
Again, there’s always gonna be that little uncomfortable leap that you have to make at some point. So if you do do that, then the feeling of relief might be, okay. Cool. Well, instead of spending the next two hours putting this awesome pitch together, I’m gonna Google courses for x thing.
Right? That’s quite a safe activity that you can indulge in for the rest of the afternoon.
On the other side of the coin, if you have that same anxiety, you know, what if they find out I’ve never worked with someone this big before, but you decide well you know what if they do find that out yeah I’m going to be upfront and own it but I’m also going to own the expertise and the USP that I bring to the table. I’m really clear on how I’m uniquely qualified to help serve this business and help them hit their own goals and I’m going to paint a really clear picture of that for them. And you know, and sure they might be the first client of this size that I’ve worked with but there’s always going to be a first client of that size no matter what I do whether it’s them or someone else.
That’s probably going to feel quite uncomfortable obviously for all sorts of different reasons.
But then even if you do make the pitch, it doesn’t go through, you know it doesn’t get accepted, you don’t land the project, you’re still going to experience some sort of growth from that process because you would have gone through the motions of doing the thing.
You would have built some confidence in that sort of interaction. You might have learned some things about, hey, well, that actually didn’t land so well with that type of client. So next time, I’m gonna you know, change or adjust that.
You might even learn in that process that, hey. I actually did need to get this sort of certification. So, you know, I’m gonna go and do that, then I’m gonna come back to them. So again, the growth may not look like winning the project and hitting the ideal goal. It might look a bit different to that.
Which brings me to my final point, which is all about adopting a growth mindset. So a growth mindset is something I spoke about, I think it might have been in our second or third mindset workshop, so quite a few months ago now.
I don’t actually know if it is on the Copies School Professional website. I’ll check that for you. But, basically, a growth mindset is, all about being open to the fact that, you know, going to do things and you’re going to learn things by failing essentially.
So a failure is not the end of the road, a failure or a falling short or not doing things perfectly is actually an opportunity, for you to grow a skill set, to grow a knowledge base, to grow confidence in yourself, all sorts of things.
So these prompts here are for you guys to use, whenever you’d like.
Actually, Sket, if you would like five or ten minutes to go through these now so that you have something concrete that you might wanna talk about with, just pop a one in the chat box.
Whereas if you would like to just go through these on your own at a later date and spend the rest of the session diving straight into the the coaching portion of things, Pop a two in the chat box so that I can just work out which path is better. I’m sorry. I’ve stopped sharing my screen because I don’t know how to look at my chat while I share it. Okay. Andrew two, Abby two.
Right.
Claire two.
Katie two.
K. Looks like it’s a two, I think.
Claire’s. I don’t know that we’ve met before.
No. No. Sorry. I was in such a fluster when I came in a minute late that I didn’t even realize.
I was also a minute late.
Perfect. Okay. Simple. You didn’t miss anything.
Welcome to the cruise. I love you to meet, and I’m excited to get to know you more and more.
Thank you so much.
No. My pleasure. So two as it is. So we will not go into that process there, but, for future reference, those reflective prompts are there for you so that you can really clearly identify what the challenge is that you’re currently facing or what the anxiety is that you’re currently up against, what the worst case scenario actually is if you go ahead and do the thing anyway, but you mess up or you don’t hit the mark.
And I think that’s a really important one too because often we can get so in our own heads and we can start because sorry. I always mispronounce this word.
Oh my god. Six AM before coffee.
Kitadas oh my god.
Kitadas castrifies.
Thank you, Claire.
Yes. Thank you. You are my savior. Yes.
So we can get our own head, and we can make things snowball and allow them to become bigger than they actually are. So being able to write something down there that’s really concrete can actually help narrow us in and keep us focused, and make the boogeyman, I guess, feel less scary.
The next question there is if that does actually come to pass, then what would I have gained? Right? And this is about flipping you into that growth mindset so that if the worst case scenario does actually happen, you don’t just curl up in a ball on your couch with a big bag of chips and watch some crappy TV. Right? You’re actually able to say, well, actually, things that have come out of this are x and y. And the last prompt there is how does that feed back into your big picture goals. Because I think if you can always see how every action you’re taking is actually bringing you closer to the business that you want to have, you’re going to be able to stay more motivated even when things do not go as planned.
Alright.
So those are there for you, whenever you are ready or needing them.
And let’s, on that note, jump straight into the coaching portion of the call today, and we can talk about anything that I’ve just gone over or anything else that is happening or not happening in your businesses. So, feel free. Who has something they would like to ask or share?
Andrew. It was a steady hand.
I was ready. Can you hear me okay?
Yeah. Perfect.
Okay. Cool.
Yeah. This is very timely for me.
I’m definitely dealing with a lot of indecision around next steps because as you said, like, I have kind of, you know, like, the current state of my business is is going, and and that’s all well and good. And so it doesn’t feel like I can just sort of, like, oh, you know, just try like, just trying something else without making it a full committed effort. It doesn’t seem like a good use of my time. And so the way that this the way that this kind of avoidance cycle manifests for me is that there’s just a lot of, paralysis and indecision. And so, you know, just to to give you an example of of what how that’s showing up in my life right now is, like, right now, I should be working on lead gen.
Just, like, very clear that that’s something that I should be working on right now.
But then my mind goes, okay. Well, in order to do that, I need to, like, figure out exactly what it is that I wanna offer people. And in order to know exactly what it is that I wanna offer people, have to figure out exactly what my business strategy is. And if I wanted to figure out what my business strategy is, then I need to figure out, like, exactly what I want my life to look like.
And then that’s where I kind of get stuck. And something as you were talking that I kind of realized is that I think I’m equally afraid. I’m I’m it’s not just the failure side that freaks me out. It’s also the success side.
Because if I succeed, then there’s also gonna be, like, more responsibility, more risk, more, you know, clients to keep track of? Is that what I want in, you know, in my life? And and so it it feels it’s kinda the term perfectionism doesn’t never really resonated with me, but I do think I deal with it. It’s I think the word perfect is not right, but it’s like there’s some sort of standard in my mind or ideal in my mind that I feel like things need to I need to have like, I I I need to feel a certain level of confidence in my business model and business strategy and my offer before I could do any of that stuff.
And Mhmm. I’ve just been spending a lot of time the past few months of just constantly thinking about, well, I could do things like this or I could do it like that, but I don’t know if I wanna do it that way. I don’t know if I wanna and so, you know, I I I move on some stuff, but then I I don’t move forward with anything meaningful because like, reaching out to people, doing actual lead gen. Sorry about the extra noise.
And so, yeah, I I find myself with just a lot of not moving forward because I have not made a decision.
Mhmm.
Yes. It sounds like you are drowning under the weight of a multitude of decisions. When you were talking about the path that your brain jacks you down, I was like, wow. You’re trying to define Yeah.
And I’m whole life. And I’m high high anxiety, like, long ago, diagnosed medicated therapy, whole deal. So, like, yeah, this is all driven by anxiety for me for sure.
Yep. Oh, you have such good insight into what’s going on for you, which is a really awesome place to start.
I so I I definitely understand that your business and where you wanna take it from what I’ve seen in the Slack group and in some of the other recordings. Like, you know, it is a big movement. Obviously, it does involve growing a team and all those sorts of things, more so than you currently have, although you’re on the past already doing that. So I definitely understand and appreciate that it feels like you can’t just test this thing. Right? You know you’ve sort of got to jump into the deep end in some way.
And at the same time, I wonder if it is possible to jump into the deep end in one way with, like, a test project in that area. So like as an example, I did that with an upmarket version of my client years ago, because I wasn’t sure, like the same reasons as you, I think, about how much I would actually enjoy that process and what it would mean to the responsibility and all those things about my life. I actually didn’t love it. Love working with that kind of client, and it did take a significant portion and chunk of time out of my business to actually do that test project with it.
But I was able to move on that I think because I just brought in the resources I needed for that project on a contract base, if that makes sense. Would something like that be a possibility for you just to get me moving and just to get you testing with real world data?
Yeah. Definitely. I mean, I I and and in a way, a current client that I have right now kind of is that test project, because they are kind of I’m not necessarily changing my ICP as much as I’m changing the way that I structure my end of things going from, like, freelance conversion copywriter to, like, landing page optimization agency or, or CRO agency.
And I think another part of this that I didn’t quite mention on the on the first part is that there’s also like, around the perfectionism thing is that there’s this constant, like like, in terms of trying to figure out my process, what I’m what kind of research am I gonna do versus what am I not gonna do? There’s constantly this battle of, like, oh, you know, like, that’s not really gonna be enough. I need to also add this thing and this thing in order to have enough research. Oh, but then if I add that, then, like, then I’m overcomplicating it.
So, yeah, it’s it’s also indecision about exactly what that process is gonna look like. And and this need to kind of always be looking over my not focusing on what I have in front of me and and committing to the decision, but also, like, always like, oh, is there some other better way? Is someone else doing this better? You know, what do I need to add to this?
What do I need to change?
So it’s a lot of that. A lot of the this endless tweaking or endless, endlessly considering all the possibilities instead of just making a decision, knowing that it’s not gonna be perfect, and committing to it.
Mhmm.
Yep. And does the idea of the the latter, like, I’ll make the decision and knowing it’s not gonna be perfect and knowing you’re gonna find out, you know, answers to those questions as you go, does that just make you incredibly uncomfortable?
I guess. Because I just keep I just kinda keep doing it, and I keep so when it’s time alright. Here’s this way that Joe showed us that we can, like, reach out to people, and it’s, like, straightforward. She’s done all the work for us.
There’s always my mind is always going, oh, no. Wait. But there’s this other thing I haven’t figured out yet. No.
I haven’t figured out the perfect process. I haven’t so I guess so. I guess that there’s I’m I’m not sure what it is that I’m afraid of is gonna happen.
Mhmm.
I don’t think that there’s a negative consequence. I think that there’s just this internal need to to feel like I have something so good that I can’t wait to share it with the world instead of right now where it’s like, oh, I have this thing, but I’m gonna hide it because I’m not sure about it yet.
Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha.
It’s interesting, and I wonder if this perspective shift may help you.
I do genuinely think that the people that we work with actually have such an important role in us shaping our offers and our services so that they are something that is so exciting and so compelling and so compelling and so wonderful. And I think to deny them that opportunity to help us shape something into being is actually a bit selfish because there’s no way that I could create something in isolation in my mind even with all of my experience and all of my knowledge that would be as good as it could be without testing it on real humans, with real businesses, and being able to identify the gaps. So I wonder if here the reframe might be partly that, but also you’re really bloody good at being able to identify things that, you know, could help a process or things that are, you know, surplus as you’re doing the thing. So I wonder how much can you trust yourself to do that on the run versus doing that in isolation before you unleash a thing into the world. Does that make sense?
Yeah. I think so. It sounds like you’re kind of saying to on one, treat it kind of as an experiment, and two, to invite the clients kind of into the process of, of optimizing it into something better.
Yeah. That’s right. And that invitation doesn’t need to be formal. Right? It’s just that, you know, they’re like a a lab rat in in some ways. Right? And, you know, you won’t know how things are gonna play out until you actually have the chance to play them out in real time in the real world.
Yeah. Because I think you you’re definitely like, you’re right.
You’re stuck in that cycle, and I think you’re actually stuck in that cycle.
Yeah.
Yeah. You’re almost like washing machine. It feels like you’re kind of spinning spinning. And I and I feel like you’re at the point now where that anxiety curve has gotten bigger.
It’s like the, you know, the crest to get over to actually do the thing now almost feels insurmountable because your head’s so busy with all of these things. And the reality is, you know, there’s so many questions that you have that you will not be able to answer until you actually do the thing. So Yeah. You’ve just gotta you’ve just gotta get uncomfortable.
Yeah.
No Yeah.
No. That that definitely helps. I think and also the first part about starting smaller in terms of how I think about this, like, not thinking the whole business and the whole future, but thinking about just the next client. What does this business look like for the next client and and nothing else? That that’s helpful because that makes it less overwhelming and less it feels less permanent.
Awesome. What’s the next client?
What is this gonna look like for the next client? Yeah.
Yes. And what could that look like for you then? Because I’d love for you to have in your mind, okay, if you’re just thinking about it in that, like, just that piece, what’s this gonna look like for the next client? Like, just what what is that gonna look like for you in your process? Like, what’s gonna happen for you next? What things you actually gonna action and do?
Yeah. I think that what I need to do is I think I need to focus on, a lead gen activity and letting myself figure out the rest after I have someone on the hook because that’s that’s what worked in the very beginning of my business where where, you know, oh, yeah. Hey. I can help with your email, you know, project.
And then they’re like, okay. Great. And they sign on, and then I’m like, alright. Let me go open ten x emails for the first time.
Let’s do this. So yeah. So, I think that that that could work for me if I just shrink the whole thing down and just think of it as what is who who’s the next client and then figure out what’s what does it look like from there.
I love that. And I love that young if she’s still young, but younger Andrew energy of just like, oh, cool. I’ll book an email project, and then I’ll learn how to do it. I think that’s awesome.
No. He was he was young.
He was in his twenties.
He was young. He was a wise man. And carefree. Yeah. That’s that’s the The last the last thing I just wanna say to you, sorry, and then I’ll stop.
Please, please. Yeah. That’s remember that just because you do something one way once, you’re not locked into doing that again and again forever and ever. Like, you may try this thing and realize that for some reason, something about it or everything about it doesn’t work.
That’s okay. That’s great data to have because now you can build with that in mind. So, you know, I think as well as being overwhelmed by, like, all the things because the decision is feeling so big. Sorry.
I’ll just mute Katie. I think that’s oh, no. She’s on it. Thank you, Katie.
As well as being overwhelmed by that, I do wonder if you’re also like, that’s kinda where that perfectionism is coming in. Like, this idea that, like, you need to get it right first time and, like, you’re gonna be locked into doing it a certain way. Whereas it’s all just a data gathering process. Right? And you can only optimize what you already know.
So I don’t know if that helps, but take that with you if it does.
Yeah. No. It it it does. Thank you. I appreciate it, Christie. Thanks.
My pleasure. Alright. I think, Katie, did you have your hand up earlier, or did I imagine that?
I did, but I have to leave for my daycare run now. So I’m not gonna relinquish my spot. But I just wanted to say, like, everything Andrew asked was very similar to what I was gonna ask. I really struggle with that all or nothing thinking as well as, like, secret like, I always wanna get things in the right order. So it’s like, okay. Well, this would be the next step, but if I do it now, like, I can’t do that until I get all these other things in place. So, Chrissy, your resource that of win slash acceptance really made me feel personally attacked by the in a really helpful way.
And I think what you were just saying to Andrew about, like, thinking of it as doing a service to your clients to act before you’re ready is also really helpful. And if you have anything else to say around fear of success, I’m here for it because I definitely think that that holds fear of success of, like, getting into the room, but then messing it up and being exposed as a fraud is, like, a way bigger fear for me than failing, like, just not having the thing.
Yes. And thank you for bringing it up. Cassandra, sorry. I forgot to touch on your fear of success as well.
It’s, yeah, it’s a big one, isn’t it? Because I feel like the bigger you get and bigger being in a matter you’re working with for your clients, you’re earning more money, you’re more visible, right, you’re more out there, the more vulnerable you feel, right, because you’re more exposed, obviously. So if people disagree with what you’re doing, if someone, you know, God forbid, has had a bad experience with you, like, that can be out there and that is really confronting. But I think one of the threads that runs not just through this fear of success but also, sort of like the all or nothing mentality and having to have all the steps in exactly the right order is that I feel like both of you might be forgetting that you are very intelligent, adaptable, responsive human beings.
Right? You it’s not like you’re gonna have to make all these decisions in isolation and then you’re just gonna play them out no matter what happens. Right? You’ve got your businesses to the point that they’re both currently at by reading the room, by responding to things, by taking really strategic sound actions most of the time.
So I think it’s really important to keep those things in mind. And I always wonder if there might be space for a workshop on self trust, at some point because I feel like ultimately, you know, there’s so much that we can’t control about the world, you know, our clients and projects and all those things. But if we’re able to trust ourselves to make decisions in the moment when those challenges arise, then so much of that becomes so much easier.
I don’t know if any of that resonated with anyone.
That it’s funny because when Andrew was talking, I was thinking it was I just self trust was on my mind for both of us.
Mhmm. Yes.
Awesome.
Okay. And it’s sorry. What Andrew has written here. Trying to figure out the right order is eating a ton of time and mental bandwidth for me. Yep. Yep. So this ordering of things, and I think, again, that’s probably linked to perfectionism, the idea that we must have all our ducks in a row, and they must be perfectly in the right row in the right place at the right time, for us to even take the first step and to get off the ground.
You know, it’s a mindset block one hundred percent because it’s not how learning works. Right? Think about the most basic skills. Like, think about talking.
Like, you don’t all of a sudden one day just open your mouth. Start having full sentences with, like, multisyllabic words. Right? It’s it’s such a process, and you trip and you stumble, but you learn from all of those things.
So I think with that metaphor too, like, the other good thing to note is that you start talking because you’re ready to start. You’re motivated. You wanna do the thing. So maybe that applies here too for reaching and stretching and growing your businesses in all these exciting ways.
That may have just been a very random metaphor, but it’s what came to mind.
Yeah. Awesome. Is there anything else I can quickly talk to you about, Katie, before you go do the, day care drop off? Or, otherwise, we could always continue this in Slack as well.
I’m good. I’m gonna keep listening, but I won’t be able to wave anymore. But thank you, Kirsten. That was helpful.
All good. And, Claire, I think your hand was up next. Hello. Hi.
So, obviously, mostly, my question’s, like, so so much in the same zone, but it’s probably a little bit more linked to the, maybe not fear of success, but, like, the whole imposter syndrome side of things.
Mhmm.
So whenever I try to post something or write something, if I’m, like, writing just for an internal thing, working out a process, I can sit down and write. No problem. The moment I’m like, okay. Let’s come up with a LinkedIn post, my brain starts going, you know nothing.
Everyone else already knows this. It’s very obvious. It’s out there. You learned this by listening to someone else.
Why wouldn’t they listen to someone else? Why listen to you?
And I get myself into this, like, whirlwind. Even when I answer, like, things on calls, I’m like, they’re gonna know. They’re gonna know mid talk, and then I start stumbling.
If it doesn’t happen, I know I could be really great. But if, like, that anxiety kicks up, it just makes me ramble.
Yeah.
So I don’t know how to deal with that.
Do you have any tips?
Yeah. Sure. And, also, I don’t know if you noticed, but Andrew was definitely nodding there. So I just wanted to highlight that I feel like everything everyone shared so far is an experience that most people in the room have also had. So just know, one, it’s very normal.
Two, you’re in good company. And three, it’s not a sign that you’re not doing the right work and doing the right thing. Right? We all have those moments where we worry that what we have to share or what to say is not good enough, not new enough, not interesting enough, not valuable enough.
But I think we also all have those moments where we manage to wow a a client just by saying something that we think is quite middle of the road. And they’re like, I never knew this. And they’re like, look at me with my expertise.
So, I mean, obviously, that’s, something that can really help with that, but that’s not something that’s in your control. Right? So let’s not focus on that. We can’t control other people’s reactions. We can only control our actions and to some extent our feelings about those.
So I’m just wondering when you feel this imposter syndrome hit, is it always when you are sharing your own knowledge or your own skill set? Is it is it confined to that, or is it more broad?
Yeah. I think so.
Because it’s in my mind, it’s not my own knowledge. It’s, like, knowledge learned. Do you know what I mean? Like, I’ve acquired this knowledge from lots of other experts, lots of other people. It’s technically theirs. I’ve just learned it.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Sure. Which is the case, I think, for all of us in this room. Right? We haven’t all just spoken up one day and discovered the craft of copywriting on our own.
I think it’s important to remember that, yes, you know, everyone learns their expertise and their craft from somewhere. Right? It’s how education systems work. For example, you get a degree to be a doctor, like, you know, that’s a maybe an example that’s quite helpful to think about.
I think what’s important to remember is that you are going to always bring your own USP and your own uniqueness to the table. Right? There’s gonna be something about the way that you share that information that’s gonna resonate with the right people. There’s gonna be something about, you know, your experience of utilizing that information or using that skill that’s gonna be really appealing to the right people.
So I think it’s again of thinking about your niche, right, and who it is you’re actually speaking to, and how what you have to share is actually hyper relevant for them. Because I think if any of us broaden out, you know, the kind of content that we would share to a white audience, it’s going to be compelling for a whole group of people, right? We have to go narrow, think narrow, and think about how to actually, you know, resonate with that person. I think another thing that can help too in those moments of imposter syndrome, especially when you’re in the middle of a a call or a conversation with a prospect or a client, is just to remember that what you’re having is actually a conversation. Right? It’s a back and forth. So it’s not a show and tell necessarily.
You know, if you can just bring it back down to that human level, that can often relieve some of that anxiety of you feeling like you’re on show, of you feeling like you’re up on a stage of some sort. Because if you just think, hey, I’m just having a chat with Claire. Like, we’re just talking about this. They’ve asked a great question.
I know the answer. Here it is. That flow can actually help bring those levels of anxiety down so that you feel less watched and just more present in the moment. Because I think something that you also, shared when you were talking about that is that it’s almost like there’s this version of Claire that hovers above you and, like, watches and is aware of what you’re doing and is possibly judging or worrying for you.
Is that is that sort of the case?
Yeah. It’s like, oh, look. Now you’re rambling. Of course you are.
Yes. Yeah. Okay. So I think it would be very helpful if if we could find ways to stop that sort of dissociation happening and and having so much of your brain up there watching, judging what you’re doing because of course that’s taking you out of the present moment.
And of course would be impacting your ability to actually you know, show up confidently. You know, it would be imagine if there was an actual person behind you saying those things. Like, that would be so distracting. So it’s the same kind of concept.
So I think it might actually be good to work with anything that brings you into the present moment. So really focusing, on the person you’re speaking to, maybe even grounding yourself with some really subtle exercises. So, do you normally meet in person or on Zoom with your clients or prospects? On Zoom.
Awesome. So a really good grounding exercise because, obviously, on Zoom, no one can see your feet unless you have a very strange camera setup that I’ve not seen before.
Even just scrunching your toes into whatever floor you have underneath your desk and just noticing the sensation, noticing what it feels like, that’s a really good way just to bring you back into your body, so that you have less of those sort of out of body floating above or behind the shoulder kind of, moments. So even something as simple as that, I would love for you to try that and then report back in Slack and just let me know if something that simple can actually help bring you back into the present, into the conversation, and out of that nasty imposter syndrome.
Oh, well, that’s super helpful. Thank you.
My pleasure. Todd, I think I might have seen your hand before unless I also imagine that.
Well, first off, this is great. Great workshop.
I’ll be honest. The last couple of days for me, I’ve had, anxiety, and it’s actually coming to a group and talking about it about it. For me, it’s like, Andrew and I actually have a call scheduled for tomorrow. And for me, it’s the CRO side of it.
Like, am I making the right decision if I’m gonna go with the CRO side of it? I talked a little bit to Tina about it. I’ll be quite honest. I don’t have an issue with process.
I’ve got a nail down, dialed in process. I know that when it runs, it runs extremely well.
I’m closing out a project right now, and the process is so dialed. I’m like, I don’t even wanna go and do it because it’s gonna be easy. And it’s one of those things. I don’t have that, but I have the anxiety side of it, and it’s great to have the conversation about, like, okay. Is this gonna be the right thing?
Mhmm.
And, you know, I’ve got other client work in the background. But you made me think of something that’s kind of important, and I will impart this if I can.
Had a client in the past, and they are Canadian special forces. So they’ve shared conversations where they’ve if not to get too deep into it, where they’ve actually had their superiors over somebody they just killed in a war, or they’ve been on a spot in the world where their only contact the rest of the world is when a satellite passes over their head. And it goes back to the stoics. And one of the things that when you’re talking about self trust and everything, you just made me think of something, and I’m like, excuse my language, but I’m like, shit.
I forgot all about that. And it’s called the only thing you can control is your controllables. That’s it. That’s the only thing you can control is what you can control.
And for me, what I’m thinking a little bit more of is doing anything I can control in the day, you know, not tomorrow or what happened yesterday, but today, is just showing up and showing up and doing what you can in that day. And it might not be the win you want or the huge success you want, but just showing up in that day and just doing what you can in that day, that’s a controllable that you can control. That I don’t know. For me, I think those stack up, And I think the more they stack up, the less the other days can kinda stack, and you actually are standing over it more than it standing over you.
So that was just my comment. It just made me remember, like, control your controllables. And that’s that’s a tough thing to do for me, especially in the last couple of days. Because it’s like, oh, okay.
Where is this going? What am I gonna do? What is this going to look like? You know?
And and all these things. So that’s all. Just wanted to impart that. That’s just it’s a very important thing to do.
It’s just control your controllables. That’s it. It’s all you can do. Right?
So Hundred percent.
Thanks so much for sharing that, Todd. That’s so timely. And, yes, And like you say, just showing up every day and doing the thing, I think, can also help when things feel overwhelming. Right?
It’s like we’re not trying to plan and execute every single thing for the business that you wanna have two years from now. It’s about what little things can actually do today that day after day can add up. So I think if, yeah, looking if looking and thinking too broad is something that causes anxiety, then bringing it back into that. And, again, yeah, what you can control, so helpful.
So thanks for sharing. That’s awesome.
Anyone else have any questions, concerns?
Hello?
All good? Okay.
So I’m never sure how long to wait in case someone’s just been shy, but I feel like we might be all questioned out for this morning.
We’re all just anxious.
I know. You’re like, oh god. This workshop was, like, my avoidant part of my day. Now I have to actually go and do some work.
What is this? Well but thank you so much for showing up this morning. Thank you so much for sharing so openly and honestly. I think the more honest that we can all be about these feelings and doubts that we have, you know, the more we just feel like, oh, we’re in the right room and we’re doing the right things.
Right? Everyone here is in the right place doing the right things. And because you have those doubts, you know, it it doesn’t mean anything about your qualifications, or where you’re headed with your business whatsoever. It’s all part of being human, unfortunately.
So please feel free to reach out and continue any of these conversations in Slack. I would love that, or have a chat with Zoe about Zoe with Joe, sorry, about, doing a workshop on self doubt, and see where that might be able to fit in because it sounds like that might be a helpful one. Sorry. Self trust. Sorry. Sorry. My baby was awake every hour last night, so she’s functioning on bare minimum.
But, yes, I will see you all in Slack, and I’ll see you again on Zoom next month.
Bye, everyone.
Justifying Your Copy
Justifying Your Copy
Transcript
Today’s workshop is on justifying your copy and minimizing client pushback.
And I’m keen to note for both of you, how are you justifying your copy with your clients now? Is it a process of popping on a Zoom call? Are you doing Loom, walk cruise?
Comments in Google doc, something else?
So for me personally, I don’t really have a specific process yet. I’m I’m kind of in the process of doing that. So I have quoted prices over email. I know that’s terrible.
I’ve also quoted prices over, like, a call.
I’d say about, I don’t know, fifty fifty.
Like, I’ll have the same amount of success or lack of success in both.
Okay. Alright. Cool. And this is for pricing the project rather than, justifying the copy once you’ve written it and presenting that copy to the client. Is that right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep. Okay. And what about when it does come to presenting the copy to your client or submitting the copy? Do you have a process around that as of yet?
I don’t really have a process around that, but it generally is over a call or if they’re too busy for a call, then I’ll at least send them a video justifying at least some of the sections or or the approach.
Perfect. And what about you, Stacy, if you’re sandwich free?
I, schedule I call it an approval call. So I schedule an approval call and I present to them live on the call and make changes live on the call. I I My goal is always zero changes. And a lot of the time I hit that, and sometimes I hit just a few changes. And most of the time we get them done on the call, I have a few instances when there is, with enterprise clients where there are a lot of people involved and that usually has to be done in a Google Doc situation, just because of the nature of the the client and the way that they work but I try to avoid those if I can.
Perfect. I love so much that you frame the call in a as an approval call. I think that so clever, and we’ll talk a bit about framing in this workshop, but I think that’s genius.
And for either of you, I’m wondering, is there a place where the process of like presenting your copy feels uncomfortable or sticky or you are getting a lot of pushback or are things sort of relatively smooth smooth sailing. Let me know.
Let’s do some of the first I tend to, as I said, I shoot for zero changes, and I tend to get people, that have a a very positive response.
You know, even as that says on my website, sometimes people cry when I present their copy. So, Michael, have you do happy dance.
Perfect. I love that. And it’s the best feeling, hey, when a client has happy tears, he’s like, cool. I’ve nailed this. This is great.
And it’s not what about for you? Any uncomfortable or sticky sticky parts that you’ve experienced so far?
Generally, that happens a lot when the client is not too involved or doesn’t isn’t very communicative.
That’s why I can tend to get some pushback in the sense of like, we just don’t like this or maybe like this one get approved.
Lines related stuff. Usually, if the client has been like really good to deal with throughout the project, then by the end of it, I I I’ve never really had pushback on the topic itself.
Perfect.
I love that you brought up the phrase. We just don’t like this. That is Neema most frustrating if that is ever to hear from a client because it’s like, okay. Well, we need to talk about this need to unpack it. You know, we need to about how this copy is informed and crafted specifically for your project and your goals.
So, I love that you brought that up because that definitely I have a tax client that I I presented to recently.
Yeah. They they weren’t even interested in getting on a call, so I had to loom video most of it.
And and some of the feedback I got back is that like, the owner just doesn’t like it. Like, it’s a tax firm, redesign of the whole website, and he’s just like, hey, I’m just not gonna do the section period. So, like, Give me something else that I can plug in here. So we got stuff up.
Oh god. Okay. Alright. Cool. We’re gonna talk talk about those kinds of comments in this workshop too because I know that they can be incredibly frustrating, not an enjoyable part. Of working with a client and also often a really big roadblock to getting your best copy out into the world and performing as you’ve intended. So, we’ll definitely dive into that.
I think the thing I wanna start off this workshop with is just by really clearly stating the benefits of being really proactive and your approach in terms of justifying and presenting your copy rather than being reactive. So getting on the front foot, and a sort of nipping objections and push back in the bud before they arise rather than waiting for the client to tell you that they don’t like something, they don’t like how sounds. I’m not sure about how it’s gonna perform with their people, etcetera, etcetera, and then having to get defensive about that process. So Stacy, it sounds like you’re all over this, and Adnan, it sounds like it depends a little bit on client, and you’re still sort of finding the right, process in which to sort of set this up. So let’s talk a little bit about that.
Now the main reason that it is so beneficial to be really proactive when it comes to, justifying and presenting your copy is because of something called the confirmation bias, which you’ve probably heard of before, but in case not, it’s the tendency that we all have to search for and interpret information in a way that confirms our pre existing ideas and beliefs, while simultaneously dismissing any information that doesn’t.
So in terms of how this comes into play, with, copy and, presenting it, etcetera, here are some examples. So if you have a client who comes to you with the belief that good copy is written, so for example, that copywriting is more a creative process, that it’s more about having a really correct grammar, or having words that sound nice.
That’s gonna be a client who’s likely going to have, a lot more questions, resistance, etcetera, to the copy that you present, because as we all know here, good copy is assembled. Right? It’s pieced together through that voice customer research process.
It’s really informed. It’s much more a science than an art. So just an example there power client with that first belief is probably going to present more challenges, in the justification process than a copy with that second belief.
As another example, because I saw in Slack, that I think it was Abby and maybe Kate. I can’t remember now, who noted that, one of the most common, stumbling blocks they come up against when they are presenting their copy to their client is the question of length, like this is too long.
So if you have a client who comes in to work with you with the existing belief that the most effective sales pages are short and punchy, perhaps because that’s just what they’ve seen from brands they admire, whatever the reason it might be, they’re someone who’s again probably going to be a bit more of a challenge to work with than someone who comes to you with the belief that the most effective sales pages match the ideal prospects level of awareness and are built accordingly.
As a final example, if you have, a client who comes to you hiring you as someone just to get the job done, so this copywriters can help me get my website up live or get this email sequence set up and ready to send versus someone who comes to you, because they see you with an expert.
Again, they’re gonna be someone who’s gonna be a bit more resistant to, some of the copy that you’re likely going to present them with. Because they don’t have that base level understanding that you’re an expert in what you do. So of course this last point really, folds into and works alongside of everything you guys are working on inside of CSP at the moment in terms of really building your authority, finding your red thread, etcetera, and hopefully, if you haven’t already had the experience over the next few months, you’ll start to have it more often when people come to you, so when they’re coming to you as an inbound inquiry for working with you because they’ve heard you on a podcast or they’ve seen your article promoted somewhere, or they’ve heard great things about you in some community that they’re part of this is going to be, in most cases, a much smoother process in terms of having your copy approve with no changes, because they’re going to come into this relationship with the expectation that you’re an expert, you know, your stuff, you know, maybe I don’t fully understand you know, what you’re saying about this headline here, but I trust you enough, and I trust your knowledge enough that I’m happy to go with it and at least test it.
So Hopefully, as you can see, it’s not just your justification about the copy in the moment, whether that’s, on a zoom, in a loom, or in a Google doc, that matters, but it’s also the content you publish and promote the public conversations you have. So for whatever social media forms you might be on any interactions you have there in the public sphere that people can see, sort of, how your brain works, what your expertise is about, things about your process, about where you’re coming from with your approach to the specific kind of copy that you write, and it’s also the way you handle your sales and onboarding that really helps, first of all, act like a bit of a siren call to people who, are open to or share the beliefs that you have about what makes copy effective, and also help really setting that bias in your favor so that when it comes to presenting the copy that you’ve assembled for them, you know, they’re more, likely to look the evidence that confirms the belief that, okay, this is voice of customer.
And I know voice of customer data is really key in conversion copy.
So it’s all of these things coming together.
So if we start to look at this, in this much wider lens in terms of, okay, so if we’re starting this conversation and helping to set this bias with our clients and our prospects from the very beginning, from our marketing and how we position ourselves, you know, it’s really important to do that because again, if you do the work from the beginning, you can actually set the confirmation bias in your and your clients are gonna look for evidence that confirms what they already think and know and believe about your expertise and the copy that you’re writing.
Now one of the best ways to start doing this is through a skill called framing, and Stacy, your example of even naming the calls, approval calls. So when you’re presenting your copy, that is such a good example of framing because what that does is that the frame of reference for the call as, okay, this is the time and space where we’re going to just approve the copy. It’s like a check, a checkbox process. It’s not like a call where we’re going to talk about what you like and what you don’t, it’s me telling you what works and why. So it’s what really simply framing is just a way to set the scene or set the focus for what’s follow.
And as well as doing this with the copy itself. Of course, you can also do this with how you position yourself.
So as an example, obviously, I’m the mindset coach here in CSP, so some things that might be relevant for you guys to know about me are that I spent three years lecturing various psychology and psychotherapy subjects at a university here in Sydney.
I have a bunch of various articles and publications in which I’ve been quoted as an expert source for various psychology and psychotherapy, topics, and I also have a lot of hands on experience working with counseling and therapy clients, you know, in real world scenarios, and have also managed various counseling practices too over the years. Could tell you that stuff is a way to frame my expertise, or I could tell you other things about myself, like the fact that I’m once dressed up as a fart, that I didn’t get my driver’s license until I was thirty two years old because I hit a pole in my first, driving test when I was seventeen or that I have a thing for getting inside of boxes.
Now, obviously, the lot of three examples, don’t have any bearing on my expertise or the value I bring to the table but they do have a bearing on the perception of that, right, how likely you are to actually trust my expertise, and see me as the right person for the job. So obviously a bit of a silly example, but I just wanna share that as a way to illustrate that effective framing isn’t about changing the facts. It’s just about shining the spotlight on the right pieces.
So to help you think about how to do this in your positioning, and I’m sure these are questions you’re already thinking about as part of the red thread process and as part of planning out your authority building for the the coming quarters, you know, what expertise and experience do you have that qualifies you for the work you do? What is it about your process that gets gets results, because often if a client can buy into your process and your way of working, that goes a long way too in helping them understand where copy is coming from, and the process behind actually getting that on the page.
Another question for you to mull on too is how you can communicate or leverage or already from the first point of contact with your prospects or clients. Right? So how can you make sure in a way that’s not arrogant or annoying that this client knows that you are a really qualified, expert in the specific field in which they’re looking for assistance with. So thinking about all these things, and being able to communicate those with your prospects and your clients from that sales and onboarding phase is really going to help you when it comes to presenting your copy.
As well as using framing to really present yourself and position yourself in the best light.
It is also often helpful think about some copy specific seeds you may want to plant, again, through that, content marketing, through that sales process and through the onboarding process.
So for example, you might want to be talking about the importance of voice of customer research and how to leverage that data in your copy.
I know that when I first discovered conversion copywriting back in, I think it must have been twenty seventeen, there was a phase there where I was moving from tackling copy as a more creative process to obviously, doing it as a more scientific process, with or the data involved, in getting everything really on point.
And because I was still at that stage working with clients who were viewing copy as that more like creative, like, writerly kind of process. It was a bit of a hard sell with voice of customer to begin with, obviously that changed as I leveled up and my clients also leveled up. But if you are sort of in that phase now, one thing that I found can be really helpful to help a client who’s never heard of the idea of voice of customer before to help them buy into, you know, paying you for your time while you’re engaging in that research process is to say something like, hey, remember the last time that you were in a room with someone, and they said the exact same thing you were thinking.
Like in that moment, didn’t you feel like you had an instant rapport with that person? Like, wow. We’re on the same page. Like, you understand me or you felt validated in what you were thinking about because other person has just voiced it, you know, they are the kinds of things that really good voice of customer can do in the relationship between you and your prospect.
So bringing that concept that’s quite nerdy versus customer, right? It’s quite jargonistic. We obviously know about it as copywriters, but the average business owner may not bringing that into a really relatable metaphor can be a really good way to get buy in. And again, when we’re talking about, you know, framing and planting seeds and fitting that confirmation bias in your favor, if you’re able to really communicate the value of that, then when they hear you talk about, okay, I hear this section here, like ninety percent of this is just raw voice of customer data, you know, look at the way it really, you know, speaks it in such an emotive resonant way, etcetera, etcetera, they’re more likely to accept that and you know, be happy for that to make it out into the wild rather than, look at that and say, oh, that the grammar’s not right, or, you know, it doesn’t sound doesn’t sound so nice.
Could we just change this word, so thinking about things from that perspective?
It might also be useful given that copy being too long seems to be a key objection for some people in the group, planting the seed that your copy’s length is far less important than its performance. Right? No copy ever performed well simply because it was short or simply because it was long. It’s a decision that you, the expert, will make as you do the research, as you understand the prospect, as you understand the offer, as you understand your clients’ voice, etcetera, and you bring all that together into something that is best designed to hit their goals for the project.
You may also wanna talk about the value of testing and optimization for the simple fact that I think you know, while, of course, we can present copy that is as informed as it could possibly be and is ideally going to perform well there’s almost always room for improvement. So once it’s out in the wild, once it’s been tested for a while, being able to optimize and tweak, and increase conversions in, you know, some some way shape or form. So I think the more you can also talk about that, the more likely it is that a client will be amenable or open to you saying, look, this is, what I think is going to work best.
Obviously can’t be a hundred percent certain of that, but I’m hundred percent certain that this is what we should be testing to begin with. They’re more likely to buy into that to be okay with that to come along for the ride, I guess, rather than pushing back, and turning your copy into something that looks very, very different to what you’ve actually written in the first place.
Let me get down a level and talk about some handy skills that you can use to actually justify your copy. So when you’re having those conversations with your clients, think it’s always so important to reinforce the why. So to join the dots between what you’ve done and why it matters. So, you know, how this decision with this section here or this header here or this CTA being where it is, how that’s actually going to serve your client’s goals. Because what that does is clarify what’s in it for them, and of course as human beings, they all like to know what’s in it for us all the time, and therefore increases buy in. So magic phrases here to use are things like so that because that wave, which allows us or which allows you to. And as an example of how this can look even in a Google doc, because I know that not always do you have the chance as you’ve both mentioned to actually get on a call with your client live, and walk things through.
This is a half day rate that I worked on with the client. It was only a couple of months ago. Yeah, we got September.
So my Google docs, in these situations where there’s not time to do, a a call to get to get everything signed off on, my Google Docs are littered with these kind of explanations. And you can see here, like, how much y is in this one. So These are all from your client intake forms under a great example of the voice of customer data we were talking about this morning by communicating your ideal prospects prostrations in their own words, a copy resonates with them more deeply, letting them know they’re in the right place and the struggles are normal and therefore solvable, Since you know exactly who you want to target for this intake, there’s no mention of the kinds of challenger studio owners outside of small town independent studios face. So things like franchising, high staff turnover, etcetera. It’s another way to highlight who the program is and isn’t for, so you spend less time dealing with people you don’t want to work with.
So you can see in that justification and explanation there, there’s so many reasons why what the client is seeing is right there on the page. And I think when you are able to justify things really clearly and link them back to the goals that you’ve spoken about with your client, obviously the chances of them pushing back on that are going to get smaller and smaller, and the chances of you being able to walk away without having to make any changes or any tweaks to your copy then having that copy go into the wild and performing really well, like they’re all really high. So just an example of what’s explaining the why it can look like.
I have also found, for me and for a lot of my coaching clients as well, it’s incredibly useful to use metaphor, to help explain unfamiliar things. So, for example, the voice of customer metaphor that I gave for, you know, when someone has said something that you were thinking at the exact same moment. So the idea here is to liken something unfamiliar to something that’s inherently known or understood.
Because that provides a really compact and memorable way of expressing unfamiliar or difficult concepts or ideas, and it also leverages the power of a known experience So it aids understanding or buy in in a way that literal explanations can’t. So jargon often is an enemy, I guess, in the justification process because if you’re not speaking in terms that your client knows or understands, it can be really hard for them to, like, feel comfortable understanding what you’re talking about, and therefore putting that out, you know, with their business attached to it, putting that out onto the internet or into letterboxes or whatever, wherever your client is using that your copy and your marketing Another metaphor that I think can be helpful, and this is particularly when you’re having conversations with a client about the length of copy or copy being too long can be, okay, imagine that you’re a fly on the wall at say a car, a car yard, and you’re watching one salesman, having conversations throughout the day trying to sell cards to different people.
Imagine if that’s if that salesman was having the exact same conversation with every single person who came through the door, you know, because your sales page is your salesperson for this offer, you know, there needs to be a bit of nuance in there and there needs to be enough information that your ideal prospect can come in and get what they need to make an informed decision. So this page isn’t this long just because I wanna force everyone to sit at their computer ten minutes and, and, you know, and read the whole thing, it’s this long because it has the information that your prospect needs to make that informed decision and to make it confidently, whether they do want to take the step, whether that’s joining your list or signing up to your thing or buying your product.
And you can also talk here about the fact that as a copywriter, you’re leveraging things like section heads and appropriately placed CTAs to give people the pathways they need when they might need it. Just like the salesman at the car shop, car shop at the car yard, will also probably give different people different ins and outs to taking that next step. Would you like to have a test drive now? Or, okay, well, should we sign the papers? So thinking about that too can just be a nice way for people to understand why something is the length it is.
As a very small example, this is taken again from sales page. I think from a day rate, I think it might have been last year, but the client was asking for the FAQ section, what do you think about having them be in drop down menu form, versus having all of them and their answers on full display. And I’ve said option two for sure, FAQs are such a missed opportunity on sales pages, it’s a last chance of persuasion, not a simple bucket for WES and Watts.
If it helps think about the last time Lovely faces are blocking there we go. You searched, for information on deliveries and returns.
Chances are that page had more questions or bits of intel than you needed, you probably would have scanned down to find what you were after. And if the piece of intel you needed wasn’t there, chances are you abandoned your cart rather than going to the effort of contacting the store. So again, just a way of putting, your point across in a way that’s really relatable and easy to grasp for your client, that going to increase the chances that they’re going to be very happy with the decision and the justification that you’re presenting them.
You can also put put it back on them. So in cases where you get a request for a change, or you’re just like, oh, this is a terrible idea.
You’re asking a question. So for example, how many of your prospects do you think would understand this word with the intention of getting your client to realize or articulate something you already know or suspect This can be such a handy skill to use, because it’s far more powerful than simply telling them because it’s helping them draw their own conclusions about something rather than trying to tell them what’s correct. So when delivered with curiosity and not SAS, stiff condition, logic, objection, and create space for new understanding, So as an example, this is from a sales page I wrote years ago, the client said, thanks, Kirsty. It looks great. Wondering what you think about weeding this in somewhere in the section that’s describes the course, the watchful lighthouse for your next level.
Obviously, not a great phrase, and not one that I would wanna have on a sales page, but they’ve said our previous contact manager came up with it and it’s on a lot of our collateral.
So my response here was I’d love to hear you talk me through it so I can help you make the right call. What does it mean? What will someone think or feel when they read it? So this is me putting it on them rather than telling them straight out what I think, and the response I got was, you know, Amber and I sat with this neither of us could answer. I guess it’s about keeping an eye on obstacles, but that does seem like a weird way to say it. Let’s scratch it. And great because that meant that they basically justify themselves out of making a change was not going to aid the copy or its performance.
A final pep talk before we can, discuss things in more detail and get into any nitty gritty or specific scenarios you two have. The truth is that you can’t control what your client decides to do with the copy you present, but you can control how you justify your work so that it has the best possible chance of making it out into the world as intended.
So in those situations where you have to work hard to make your case, mull on this, Ultimately, will your client be happier if they get their preference or if they get results? And I think keeping this in mind can really help in those situations where your mindset gets a bit wobbly if you’re put on the spot to justify something, you know, remember this, they’ve hired you to get results, not to be a yes man or a yes woman.
Remember that you’re actually on the same team as your client, so don’t be afraid to remind them that hitting their goal is good for your business too. Right? Of course, you wanna provide them with copy and strategy that’s going to help them be a really great case study for you because that’s great for them, and it’s also going to be great for you to leverage in your as a case study or a testimonial or social proof or whatever it might be. So I think keeping these things in mind can be really helpful and take some of that fear and some of that heat and some of those nerves out of any of those conversations where you are in a situation where you’re on a back and forth about a particular piece or section of your copy.
Alright. Any questions or any specific situations you wanna troubleshoot?
Hang on. Let me escape this so I can see your faces in a bigger way.
There we go.
Any questions, guys? And don’t feel obliged. Don’t feel like you have to think of something, but we have lots of time and lots of opportunities. So if there’s anything I can help with, just let me know.
I just wanted to say that I enjoyed your, your take on all of that. There were lots of really good tid tidbits in there. So thank you.
Oh, my pleasure.
Is there anything else I can help you guys with, like, anything you wanna use? Cause we have half an hour still. Is there any time, like, anything CSP related that I can help you think through, talk through?
I didn’t come prepared with any questions. So I I don’t have anything on my mind that I wanna think through or talk through.
No. That’s all good. No worries. Well, I’m always in Slack too if you think of something later.
What about you? Yeah.
I don’t have any specific questions either, but definitely really found your talk beneficial. Like, I I liked how you talked about metaphor as well. I think the framing part and the metaphors are definitely something and, you know, it’s actionable.
So Awesome.
Good. Yes. And feel free to pinch those metaphors too. Like if they if they feel like they’re gonna work with connect with your clients, like, they’re all yours to take and use. And again, I just wanna say it’s tasty how much I love that you call your walk through call the approval call. I think that’s genius.
I’m gonna compliment you.
Thank you.
You know, I I can’t I can’t remember who I got that from, and maybe my colleague Erica. It was one of the I got it from another, another storybrand, certified guide who who used it first. So I can’t claim to be the originator of that. But ever since I heard somebody do it, I went, of course, why have I why have I not been doing that all along?
Yes. Genius. Oh, well, you’ve been to trace it to us. So thank you.
Yes. Everyone should do the approval call. I even have it. I mean, I, you know, here’s here’s what’s gonna happen. We’ll do this and then this, and then we’ll let’s go ahead and schedule your approval call. I schedule the approval call at the end of the of the intake call.
So Yep.
Perfect. I do that too. With all my calls from my projects, everything’s booked in as soon as they sign their proposal, just so we know what’s coming up when and what the purpose of each interaction is. Partly because of framing, but also because I’m someone who just likes to know what’s coming up next, and I love a good deadline.
You know, I do. I have one question.
You know, as I ninety ninety nine percent of the time, everything goes awesome. I had one client this past year who, you know, what what do you do when the lawyer starts editing your copy?
Not and not just because of legal review because, you know, I don’t know. They just thought that they knew better and rewrote everything.
So the copy that I wrote ended up being, like, ninety percent rewritten at which time I mean, I just kind of disengaged completely and let let them do what they wanted to do, but I’m curious how you would handle a scenario like that.
Yeah. So just to check, it wasn’t for compliance reasons. It was just No.
It’s not for compliance reasons. They were, one of the you know, one of the co founders of the company and just, you know, thought that they could write it better.
Yes.
I feel for you. I feel like that can happen. I’ve never had it with a lawyer, but with, yeah, co founder or with a designer sometimes, if the designer tells the client, but they think this will look better, you know, if it’s only if they take this section out, whatever, and you’re like, no. You need this section.
This is an important section. So I think the conversation there should be, you know, delivered obviously with tact, but something that communicates the fact that you know, okay, I, you know, I understand that you, obviously, you know, you’re tied so closely to this business as the co founder, like, I can really understand that you, you know, you want to really have a say in what makes it out into the world. I just wanna remind you that you’ve hired me for this specific job because of my expertise, you know, I would never try and advise you on on the legal aspects of your business. You know, at the end of the day, the call is yours.
Obviously, it’s your business, but the copy I presented really is the copy that I think will help you hit your goals in the best possible way on the timeline, you know, etcetera, etcetera. So communicating that kind of message, obviously the way you communicate it is quite important because you don’t wanna come off sort of combative and dismissive, but I think it is key to remind them that, you know, you’ve been hired specifically for the copy of the strategy, you know, you would never I would never, you know, when it’s a designer, like, you know, god, I don’t know how to design a sales page to save my life, but, you know, I would never try and advise on that.
So just remind them what they’re paying for, I think, is is really the best you can do. And, like, as you said Stacy, like, there are some situations, and there are some clients that are just gonna do what they’re gonna do regardless, but I think if you know that you’ve made the best case that you can for copy that you’ve written, like that really is where your control ends in that scenario, and sometimes you do just have to let it go, and it really sucks.
Yeah. Yeah. I have a another, another, colleague in the in the guide community who He has a thing. He calls it the push back once rule.
He will he will do his very best to push back once And then after that, you know, if they keep insisting, I mean, they’re the client. It’s their decision.
Yes.
You can’t save them from themselves.
That’s right. You can’t.
You can’t. And I think if they’re that kind of client, so, you know, you just kind of, yeah, you just have to roll with it and let it go as best you can I mean, the fact that ninety nine percent of the time you’re getting no or very few requests for changes or pushback in anything, I think that shows that you’re doing a phenomenal job?
So I’d say just keep doing what you’re doing.
And, you know, if you if you need help, if you get another lawyer who tries to step in, post something in Slack.
Hopefully, that’s not gonna happen again. Oh, man. I had I hope that that’s, hopefully, that’s a once in a lifetime scenario.
I mean, lawyers by nature. They love to redline things. That’s what they do.
That’s right. It was I’ll be like, yes. I’m in my, like, my happy place. Any lost questions, guys?
Not for me.
I’m okay as well.
Okay. Alright. Well, I guess we’ll end things there then. Thank you so much for showing up. It was nice to see you. Would love to see you both. Enjoy some time off over the next week or two.
And yeah, I’ll see you guys in Slack, I think I’m also doing a copy review tomorrow too because I don’t know if either of you will be there, but if you are, I’ll see you then.
Yeah, we’ll be in touch.
Okay.
Have a great day.
Bye. You too. Bye.